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Topic: Incredibly naive question from someone who doesn't play poker for money
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 26, 2012 08:27PM)
As per the title--

Scenario: You're an average strength poker player. You have two years free to study. Which makes you more money--learning cheating sleights or learning to play better legit poker?
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Jan 26, 2012 08:39PM)
Is there a third option? There goes two years you will never get back.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 26, 2012 08:47PM)
Study Poker probabilities, read Poker theory and learn strategies: become a better player!

Cheating? In two years you can't even stack a set properly or get a decent second deal!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 27, 2012 03:45AM)
How are you going to make money at Poker if you don't become a professional?

Read Erdnase.

I would advise learning to deal poker with a view to opening a club and being a pro in that sense.

If you were a son of mine I would advise you keep away from it altogether.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Jan 27, 2012 05:41AM)
I would definetly say learn to master the game as best you can. Most of the games are in casinos anyway, so what good is manipultaion going to do for you ? And its going to take a hell of a lot more than 2 years to master anything like Arnold said and its over rated anyway. What are you going to do, play tight on everyones deal but your own ?
Forget gambling, study rocket science, its easier. lol
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 27, 2012 07:03AM)
If you become a poker dealer you can get a job dealing poker in a casino. You can then use a manipultaion there that will take two minutes to learn. Note there is no IMHO in that.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 27, 2012 07:13AM)
Sure, you can become a professional dealer and manipulate the game. But the day you're burn, your career is over. And you'll get burn, one way or another.

Last, I second Tony. Money is mainly in the casinos today, as the Hold'em rush seems to collapse month after month. And you have to be brainless trying to cheat casinos using sleights of hand...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 27, 2012 07:48AM)
What an incredibly naive thing to say Arnold.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 27, 2012 08:05AM)
It's Friday.

More seriously, the original poster seems to be alone. Now, if he plans to be part of a crew, we have a different story...

But maybe I got you wrong?
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 27, 2012 02:39PM)
I'm not sure I'd "plan" [i]either[/i] of those two scenarios.

Poker:
Problem with straight up Hold'Em is that, without the stone cold nuts you'll at some point in time always get cracked when you least expect it........as happens the world over, in every game, on every single day.
The only variable is whether you'll get cracked when you're in for a small pot, or that one big one where you're all-in and your over-tight gets cracked with quads.
Suddenly, you're broke.......(unless you're one of the really big players, on a team, and are lucky enough to play from a mutual pool of funds).

Of course there's always plenty of play where none of the above happens.......but it will happen to you eventually.

Cheating:
I suppose you could spend two years working an effective sleight like cold decking, stacking, etc......but
Are you going to work alone?
Are you going to have a partner? (suddenly everything you make is divided by 2).
What kind of games are you going to look for?
Can you get into those games in your area?
Are you prepared to travel all over the U.S.A. to find games?
Are you prepared to be labeled a "cheat"?

But like Dowser implied above, life is pretty fricking short as it is.....do you really want to waste two years of it playing poker or learning a couple of card sleights?

You could travel to the Great Basin in Nevada, see the Florida Keys, Big Sur, the Oregon coast, Big Bend in Texas, the Georgia low country, help the homeless in your town, be a Big Brother, work a Crisis Line, spend time with your family............
man you could [i]miss a lot[/i] by wasting two years in a dark, damp room with a bunch of card players!

If you [b]do choose[/b] one of your two proposed paths though, [i]find a mentor[/i] in your chosen field.........as books, the internet, and DVD's won't teach you what you need to know.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 27, 2012 03:00PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-27 15:39, silverking wrote:
...as books, the internet, and DVD's won't teach you what you need to know...
[/quote]
You mean that Steve Forte and Tony Giorgio (just to name two) sells us oil snake then? You don't use Internet to chat or exchange techniques with colleagues? Erdnase's book (I just name the most famous) was a complete swindle?

Geez! In what world do you live?

There's a lot to learn from books, Internet and DVDs!

Sure, you won't learn how to bribe casino employee or how to hack security cameras. You won't be taught how to introduce marked cards in a private club or subtle techniques to signal your partners the cards you hold, nor they'll show you how to setup spying cameras or how to jam video broadcasts, I agree. You'll get very little serious information about how becoming a professional hustler.

But you can't say books, DVDs or Internet are useless.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 27, 2012 04:04PM)
Ahhhh, Arnold......when you don't understand something, you really don't understand it.

I find myself wondering if you ever leave your bedroom.

You'll note I didn't use the word "useless" at all (that was your terribly ill chosen paraphrase).......I simply said to the OP based on his question that they [i]"wouldn't teach you what you need to know"[/i] ........( I know, I know, your English skills aren't up to actually making sense).

Peace man, but please don't get into it with me unless you really want to get into it with me. I wasn't talking to you specifically, so responding to me directly seems to indicate that you would prefer to end our "truce", and openly share what we really think of each other.
I don't care what you think about anything, and you'll note that I rarely (if ever) comment on things you post.

I'd prefer to keep things as they are Arnold.

Really though man, if you want to type like a punk when you address comments to me, I'll certainly be willing to treat you like that punk you apparently think you are.

Your choice.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Jan 27, 2012 04:27PM)
Guys listen. If you become proficient at poker you can definitely make money. And I might add quite a bit of money.

Do you win all the time? Of course not. Will you get cracked on a good hand? Of course. But lets understand something here. Depending on the game size you play in (stakes) lets say anthing from 1 2 no limit to 25 50 no limit you are going to make and win a certain percentage of the pots that you stay in and play because you are a better player than the others at the table if you play correctly you will be a winner more than you are a loser. The saying "know when to fold em is very true". You will hit slumps, bad cards, luck of the cards etc. But if this keeps occuring take a step back and see if you are not rationalizing and possibly playing above your head in skill level.

So what this means is that it comes down to that let us say for every hour of poker you play you earn x amount of dollars because of your skill. That takes into consideration your getting cracked on some hands and obviousley sucked out on which is the same thing. If you play 100 hours you should win 100x if you play 1,000 hours you should win 1,000x. The longer the hours played the more consisent you will arrive at an hourly rate of your winnings. But you win enough of those senarios to be profitable. So the more hours you play the more you will win if you are talented enough. But please remember this, for this is extremely important. It is not only your skill at poker table that determines how much you win or lose it is the skill of the people you play aganist which is a much bigger factor. One extremely talented player at a 10 person game will make a heck of a lot more money if the players at the table are just medicore to poor. However put anothher talented player at that table and your winning expectation drops dramaticaly. Play against 9 others of the same skill level as yourself and you might as well flip coins.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 27, 2012 04:53PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-27 17:27, acesover wrote:
If you become proficient at poker you can definitely make money. And I might add quite a bit of money.


[/quote]
Although in general terms I agree with what you're saying (especially if you consider $12.00-$18.00 per hour "good" money), if poker was as easy to make money at as you imply it might be, then everybody would be doing it.
To extend that thought, that X% would also have to be OK with spending 12 -18 hours a day (every day) in the mental and physical environment that surrounds playing poker at the level required to actually make money.

(I don't have hard numbers, so X% could be anywhere from .25% to 2%)

I would posit that no more than that same X% of the population has the time, inclination, "poker-sense", and opportunity (as in no mortgage, kids, wife, or serious debts or commitments)to actually make a go of playing poker professionally, and starting from scratch (as the OP seems to imply he would be).

Conveniently, a very limited number of people play poker and make good money at it......likely an amount totaling somewhere near X%.

In a nutshell, [i]wanting[/i] to play poker professionally has nothing to do with [i]being able[/i] to play poker professionally.
...........some people simply aren't wired to consistently win (even when they have all the data from Sklansky et al)
...........and if you [i]are[/i] wired to win, then you may not have the military level of discipline required to maintain consistency over time, something that's required if you play professionally.

And every pro out there has been cracked at some point, something that not everybody will have to resources to recover from.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 27, 2012 05:00PM)
Leaving my bedroom? What condescension, what contempt... I'm currently in an office by the way and I live in a house, not a bedroom.

You write "as books, the internet, and DVD's won't teach you what you need to know", I conclude that you think those books etc. won't be very helpful to him. I don't think so, therefore I write it. Nothing more. I do think that books, Internet and DVDs have something to say and I really think they have interesting information for the OP. There is no disrespect to you, nothing insulting, I'm just expressing an opinion. Mine.

We don't have the right to make any comment on your words? It's a free forum here and everyone is free to comment, to bring his own experience, to share his knowledge. I personnel find this zone of the Magic Café great. Even when people disagree there's always something to grasp.

YOU made the choice to consider me like a punk, I have nothing against you and I even enjoy reading some of your posts. It's YOUR choice and I have no "truce" with you as I did nothing to you. Keep the things the way you feel like to keep them, it's your choice, not mine.

But please, stop putting in my mouth words or thoughts I didn't write, mean or think! You perfectly know I have nothing against you and that I respect everyone here. Now, if you can get my English, we can talk in French, Spanish or Italian. We, punks, are multilingual :).
Message: Posted by: acesover (Jan 27, 2012 05:16PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-27 17:53, silverking wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-27 17:27, acesover wrote:
If you become proficient at poker you can definitely make money. And I might add quite a bit of money.


[/quote]
Although in general terms I agree with what you're saying (especially if you consider $12.00-$18.00 per hour "good" money), if poker was as easy to make money at as you imply it might be, then everybody would be doing it.
To extend that thought, that X% would also have to be OK with spending 12 -18 hours a day (every day) in the mental and physical environment that surrounds playing poker at the level required to actually make money.

(I don't have hard numbers, so X% could be anywhere from .25% to 2%)

I would posit that no more than that same X% of the population has the time, inclination, "poker-sense", and opportunity (as in no mortgage, kids, wife, or serious debts or commitments)to actually make a go of playing poker professionally, and starting from scratch (as the OP seems to imply he would be).

Conveniently, a very limited number of people play poker and make good money at it......likely an amount totaling somewhere near X%.

In a nutshell, [i]wanting[/i] to play poker professionally has nothing to do with [i]being able[/i] to play poker professionally.
...........some people simply aren't wired to consistently win (even when they have all the data from Sklansky et al)
...........and if you [i]are[/i] wired to win, then you may not have the military level of discipline required to maintain consistency over time, something that's required if you play professionally.

And every pro out there has been cracked at some point, something that not everybody will have to resources to recover from.
[/quote]

First of if you are to be considered a professional poker player that is what you are. Youu play it for a living. You play poker for a minimum of 35 hours a week to 60 hours a week. I am not talking about going to the casion on Friday for ther big 200 buy in. You have to play polker s much as if it is a real job because if youare a pro that is what it is.

Also what do you mean when you say a poker player gets cracked? I am not sure I follow you. If you mean he loses his whole stash there is something definitely wrong there if he is what one would call a pro. If you start with say $25,000 you do not sit in a 25 50 no limit game with your 25,000 at stake to start off your career. If he sits down and loses his whole stash on one game he is definitely not a pro and does not have the mental attitude to play the game on a professional level. I consider myself a semi pro player as I also operate and run a few games of my own but I do play at least 30 hours a week and I have been a winner at poker year after year for over 20 yers and not just holdem
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 27, 2012 05:32PM)
I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your post, other than you're a semi-pro and you're up after 20 years.
So....congratulations on your success playing poker.

I'm not sure what you wrote had anything to do with what I wrote though :)
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 27, 2012 05:56PM)
So emotional Arnold!, let's take a look at your initial response to my post, and examine it for anything which could inspire me to respond as I did:

[i]"You mean that Steve Forte and Tony Giorgio (just to name two) sells us oil snake then? You don't use Internet to chat or exchange techniques with colleagues? Erdnase's book (I just name the most famous) was a complete swindle? "[/i]

I didn't refer to, or imply any of those people, none of them.... not Forte, not Giorgio, not Erdnase. Everything you wrote you created in your head and falsely attributed to me. I don't accept your straw man argument, and will say so each time you attempt to use one in response to something I post.


[i]"In what world do you live?" [/i]
The same one you do. And if you choose to speak to me like a punk (as you did here) I'll treat you like a punk.

[i]"There's a lot to learn from books, Internet and DVDs!"[/i]
I didn't imply or state that there wasn't. I said that I didn't think any of them would be as beneficial to him as a mentor would be.
So I'm not disagreeing with you........in fact I didn't say anything at all about there not being lots to learn from books, DVD's, or the internet.......anywhere in anything I've posted on the Magic Café.

[i]"You'll get very little serious information about how becoming a professional hustler."[/i]
I completely agree, which was 100% the substance of my main point. As [i]you wrote this[/i], you seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth. I'm confused when first you imply that there's lots to learn about hustling in DVD's, books, and the internet.......and then in the next breath you say [i]"you'll get very little serious information about how becoming a professional hustler"[/i].

[i]"But you can't say books, DVDs or Internet are useless."[/i]
As I've already pointed out, I didn't say any such thing, anywhere....ever.
Once again you attempt a lame straw-man argument, and I simply state that your efforts to put words into my mouth, or put forth the straw-man are a total waste of time on your part.


You'll note as well that nowhere did I call you presently a "punk". I did say that if you want to speak to me like a punk ([i]"Geez! In what world do you live?"[/i]), that I'd be more than happy to engage with you on those terms. That seems to be a choice that's 100% yours to make.
Frankly, when I do think of you, I just think of you as "Arnold".

You're absolutely free to make address to anything I post. If you do choose to address what I post though....please expect that I'll engage you in further conversation if I feel it warrants it. Attributing words or statements to me that I didn't make, straw-man arguments, etc will always bring me back into the conversation.

You're quite skilled (in every thread you get yourself involved in) at trying to change the meaning of something you wrote previously (especially when you get called out on it)......but in this case I not only know what I wrote, but I know what I meant when I wrote it......and won't have it's meaning re-interpreted by you.

I'll let this go now Arnold, perhaps we both should.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 27, 2012 05:56PM)
Play poker on your own :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 27, 2012 07:23PM)
Yep Silver, there are a lot to learn about hustling in those books, DVDs, etc., but not about -PROFESSIONAL- hustling. Can you get my point?

As usual, you only consider hustling, cheating, etc. from the professional side. Yet, the OP doesn't talk about professional hustling. You only consider the small bunch of hustlers making their living out of it. But again, there are different ways to swindle people, different goals and different levels. It seems to me you only give credit to the mythical crews cheating casinos for millions. Yes, they exist, we have examples every month. But there are other people cheating too! And it's not because they don't make millions that they are not proficient.

Acesover talks about $200 buy-in games. It's my world, and trust me it's not that easy to cheat them! Me, I understand the difference between the guys described by Cagliostro (for example) and guys like Doc or even me. I have no trouble admitting they are different worlds and I understand that some can be called professional thieves whereas I am more an amateur. So what? Because I didn't go to jail I don't know my side? Because I've never been caught I'm not proficient? Because I don't play $10K games I don't have my word to say? There are different categories, that's all. And because you don't make millions doesn't imply the money you win is not important. If you want to lose $200 every Friday, please, let me know, I'll be glad to take them.

I'm surely not "educated" enough for being a professional cheat, which I don't wanna be! I want a long life and all my bones in good condition. But about swindling amateur/private games, I know a "bit" I think...

Years are passing, and I really have the impression reading your constant disparagement against me, the way you weight every word I write in order to flush out any possible controversy (I really have that feeling) that it's more than disdain you have towards me. But I can't help you about that. I'm really sorry to write it, but I don't clearly see why your advice on Gambling hustling prevails more than mine.

If it pleases you, I won't answer any of your posts anymore. If you could understand how little I care about those pedantic brawls, you would have a true estimation of the size of the Universe. Take a deep breath man, and enjoy life.

Cordially.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Jan 27, 2012 10:44PM)
Silverking wrote following:

Poker:
Problem with straight up Hold'Em is that, without the stone cold nuts you'll at some point in time always get cracked when you least expect it........as happens the world over, in every game, on every single day.
The only variable is whether you'll get cracked when you're in for a small pot, or that one big one where you're all-in and your over-tight gets cracked with quads.
Suddenly, you're broke.......(unless you're one of the really big players, on a team, and are lucky enough to play from a mutual pool of funds).


My questioning of this is why would you be broke from one hand in a game of NO Limit Holdem? You may lose all the money you have at the table for this game. I myself have yet to see a game except for television where the players put up money in the hundreds of thousands and in some cases a million. But that is television which is not by any stretch of the imagination what we are discussing here.

With all of that said I do not see a pro gettiing into a situation where he puts all of his stach in jeopardy at any one sitting. So he will never get cracked at a game regardless of how he gets cracked. This isn't the wild west we watched in the movies where the guy bets the ranch on a hand and loses

Also I am not saying I am "up" after 20 year of playing poker. That definitely lessens my accomplishments in poker. I have been a substancial winner year after year for that time not just up after all those years. (I did not do it for a living nor do I think I couldhave done it for a living.) Also that was when we were not playing no limit poker and normal stakes were 1,2, 4 and double on an open pair when the games of choice were 5 card stud, 7 card stud and 5 card draw which was usually 3 before the draw and 6 after the draw. Also in retrospectI have been playing poker for over 60 years. Of course the first couple of those years were home games with my friends and family.

In my limited exprience I know of one man has played poker for a living and worked at nothing else. Yes his marriages turned to crap. He is divorced twice as I am sure is a direct result of poker but not for not making a good living for his wife. He had one child with the first wife and I believe that is what triggered the divorce in the first marriage. The reason for mentioning this individual is that I am sure in my limited experience, which I feel is more than most. That if I know of one person doing this I am sure there are many more who make a comfortble living from playing poker.

Also let me point out that in no way did I ever say, as I believe you made refrence that making a living at poker would be easy. It would be no more easy than making a living playing professional golf or playing professional sports of any kind in fact it would be much more difficult as these people are gifted to begin with and just hone these gifts. There are no gifted poker players. It is all earned and learned.


While I said I consider myself for lack of a better phrase a "semi pro" that is a laugh because if I never made a nickel playing poker it would not change my lifestyle. So I am not in a do or die senario. Doing it for a living has to be very difficult and trying on oneself because it is what puts food on the table. With me it is a pleasure that I fully enjoy and am able to make some extra money in the mix. But if I had to do it for a living I am not sure I could because of the pressure involved. However as I said I know one individual who has done it quite suscessfully.

Just to site an analogy that may or may not fit this. You may be an excellent marksman but could you be a sniper?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 28, 2012 08:22AM)
Scenario: You're an average strength poker player.

What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?

Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?

And so on.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Jan 28, 2012 09:28AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-28 09:22, tommy wrote:
Scenario: You're an average strength poker player.

What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?

Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?

And so on.
[/quote]

To answer your questions.

------------What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?----------------

If you are an average payer and play with average strenght players youi will statistically break even. However if you sit down with superior players you are going to lose. I said before that not only does it depend on how good you are but also the ability of your opponents which playes a bigger part.




---------------Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?---------------

Yes you will win in the long run.

Not exactly sure what the "and so on" means in youir post. But to answer your question poor players lose to average players in the long run.

Average players lose to good players in the long run.

Poor players and average players and good players lose to superiour players in the long run.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Jan 28, 2012 09:37AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-27 15:39, silverking wrote:
...[i]find a mentor[/i] in your chosen field....
[/quote]

There is wisdom in these words, and not just for poker but just about anything I can think of.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2012 11:37AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-28 10:28, acesover wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-28 09:22, tommy wrote:
Scenario: You're an average strength poker player.

What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?

Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?

And so on.
[/quote]

To answer your questions.

------------What does that mean? Does it mean you break even given average luck or what?----------------

If you are an average payer and play with average strenght players youi will statistically break even. However if you sit down with superior players you are going to lose. I said before that not only does it depend on how good you are but also the ability of your opponents which playes a bigger part.




---------------Does it mean if you can find a table with below average players to play with you win?---------------

Yes you will win in the long run.

Not exactly sure what the "and so on" means in youir post. But to answer your question poor players lose to average players in the long run.

Average players lose to good players in the long run.

Poor players and average players and good players lose to superiour players in the long run.
[/quote]

Assuming you're playing in a game with no rake. If there's a rake, average players lose in the long run. You have to be slightly better than average to break even in a game with a rake, just as you have to pick better than 50-50 to break even at sports betting. Other than that, concur. As David Sklansky has pointed out, the number one determining factor in your results is the strength of your opponents. A good player against bad and average players is in better shape than a very good player against good players. Table selection is important.

The other thing I would add, though, is that it can take quite a while to get into "the long run.". See Mason Malmuth's writing on this topic.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2012 11:47AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-27 23:44, acesover wrote:
There are no gifted poker players. It is all earned and learned.
[/quote]

Maybe with the exception of Stu Ungar. I mean when the second tournament you enter is the main event at the World Series of Poker, and you win it, then you come back the next year and win it again in case anyone thought the first time was a fluke....

And poker wasn't even his best game. Jeeeeeeeeeeez.


I think all the "broke on one hand" stuff comes from TV/movies of games that aren't table stakes.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Jan 28, 2012 12:38PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-28 12:47, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Maybe with the exception of Stu Ungar.
[/quote]

Word.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 28, 2012 12:50PM)
Not to mention he won the title a third time...

I dunno where I read it, but they said he was almost unbeatable at Gin.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 28, 2012 01:22PM)
I see, so

How long is the average piece of string?

First you find yourself an average piece of string. If you want to see if you are taller than the an average piece of string you measure yourself against it.

:)
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Jan 28, 2012 01:23PM)
Almost unbeatable is one thing. That Stuey even started with poker because he couldn't get anyone in the entire world to play Gin against him for money is another thing entirely. He was a genious with cards in his hands.

I kind of admire the guy. :)
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 28, 2012 02:16PM)
Have you watched "High Roller" Jeff? Many people said it wasn't a great movie, but, personally I think it's a good one. There is a nice Poker Scene. A funny Gin scene too.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Jan 28, 2012 04:56PM)
Stu was great :)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2012 05:48PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-28 14:23, stoneunhinged wrote:
Almost unbeatable is one thing. That Stuey even started with poker because he couldn't get anyone in the entire world to play Gin against him for money is another thing entirely. He was a genious with cards in his hands.

I kind of admire the guy. :)
[/quote]

Yeah, it's really almost impossible to fathom Ungar at gin. The gap between him and #2 in the world might have exceeded any comparison. It was beyond Tiger Woods in his prime. It was beyond Ali. It was beyond Sugar Ray Robinson. The only athletic comparison might have been Babe Ruth.

He was ridiculously good at poker. It's an accomplishment to make the final table in a major tournament; he entered 30 tournaments with a buy-in of $5,000 or more, and forget the final table - he WON 10 of the 30. He was hospitalized after day 2 of a WSOP...they blinded and anted him off the rest of the way, taking his money when he had a forced bet, and he STILL finished in the top 10 - he had amassed that much of a chip lead after 2 of the 4 days. Nobody else won both the World Series of Poker and Amarillo Slim's Super Bowl of Poker - he won each tournament THREE times. It's as if chess wasn't Bobby Fischer's best game. It's so outrageous, it's like when a phenomenal magic tricks gets laughter, because spectators don't know what else to do with it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 28, 2012 09:10PM)
Shows you what a little manipulation can do. :)
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 29, 2012 05:16AM)
Hehe tommy.

There is something we don't hear that much though, not many talk about that: champs/pro and cheating. Yet...

OK, it's worth what it's worth but I found interesting what Russ Georgiev said for instance. All can't be false.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Jan 29, 2012 07:39AM)
No doubt Mr. Unger was one of the best poker payers that ever played the game. It would be interesting to see how he would have faired in the large field of players that now play in tournaments. I know for sure he would kick my a__. However today one must go through thousands of players to get to the final table of the WSOP. A lot different than a field of 100 or so players. The game has changed dramatically since his time. May he rest in peace, because he sure did not have it while alive.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2012 10:45AM)
I will make you famous. Just put me in the dealers chair and the only thing you will need to worry about is looking too good to be true.

:)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 29, 2012 10:51AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-29 08:39, acesover wrote:
No doubt Mr. Unger was one of the best poker payers that ever played the game. It would be interesting to see how he would have faired in the large field of players that now play in tournaments. I know for sure he would kick my a__. However today one must go through thousands of players to get to the final table of the WSOP. A lot different than a field of 100 or so players. The game has changed dramatically since his time. May he rest in peace, because he sure did not have it while alive.
[/quote]

I'm sure he wouldn't win 1/3 of the big tournaments he entered anymore. I'm also sure he'd make a ton of money.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 29, 2012 01:26PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-29 11:51, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I'm sure he wouldn't win 1/3 of the big tournaments he entered anymore. I'm also sure he'd make a ton of money.
[/quote]
I agree. Good observation.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2012 02:43PM)
Its possible to make a lot of money from the show business side of poker these days. A few of my pals have done so, through sponsorships and all of that. If you go broke on line you don't necessarily go broke; A pal of mine was amazed when he we broke and they asked him if he wanted be put into a big comp for free. From there he did not look back and became the champ of Europe. When you are playing with other peoples money I guess you can't lose. Mind you I will have to check how he is doing now as he his quite crazy with money, it would not surprise me if he had gone skint again today.
Message: Posted by: NFS (Jan 29, 2012 02:57PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-29 06:16, AMcD wrote:
There is something we don't hear that much though, not many talk about that: champs/pro and cheating.
[/quote]

I have it on good authority that Stu knew about the cheating sleights but never cared to use any of it. He didn't need to.

On the other hand, I have some pretty dámning video evidence of Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson cheating by collusion at a major tournament. After I get around to editing the video and uploading it, anyone is free to PM me for a link.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2012 03:00PM)
Why would you want to show that?
Message: Posted by: NFS (Jan 29, 2012 03:05PM)
I have a lot of money tied up in FTP that I'll likely never see again. I don't care much for these two individuals.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 29, 2012 03:11PM)
I'm not sure I'd see the need to post that video.
Like Tommy says......why?

Arnold mentioned Russ Georgiev above, and although Russ a bit crazy at times, his repeated insistence (with evidence apparently) that most, if not [i]all[/i] of the "star" poker players cheated at one time or another, and in one form or another.......... rings with plenty of truth.
Russ passed away, and took all his information with him when he went.

I think the presumption that these poker pros (guys and gals) are inherently honest just because we see them on TV is to presume far too much.

.........in other words, no real point to posting the video......it's nothing most serious observers don't already suspect, or know happens......it's not (or shouldn't be) a surprise.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 29, 2012 03:12PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-29 16:00, tommy wrote:
Why would you want to show that?
[/quote]

Why wouldn't he?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2012 03:14PM)
A fool who had money has already had his fair share of luck.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 29, 2012 03:16PM)
Sure he can post anything he wants.

I'm just surprised that anybody thinks these pros don't cheat all the time........collusion, whipsawing, playing cousins, call it what you will.........the works.

...........even on TV.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 29, 2012 03:34PM)
I myself noticed many weird behaviors on different TV shows during the last decade. Not to mention some interviews where we learn that "OK, some big names of today cheated in the past, but it was a "long" time ago, it's over now, blablabla...".

About Russ, I think he was mainly talking about a period that ended around 1980-1990 or something like that, no? I've always been amazed he didn't get sued or something of the like. In his video he names very famous players!

I can understand how NFS feels, he's been swindled after all. Nich, if you want to do something, I'm in. It's years I hate those [beep] owning online Poker websites!
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 29, 2012 04:09PM)
You're right Arnold, by around 1989, Russ was completely ostracized by the entire pro poker community.
As a result of being labeled as he was, he had no exposure to those kinds of games after he started speaking out about cheating.........the pro players would have nothing to do with him.

It was around that time that he went into his endless rants on the Usenet poker forum, and named pretty much everybody who was playing professionally at that time as a one-time, or current cheat.

Lest anybody that doesn't already know the story misunderstand......Russ [i]was[/i] a bit crazy, and spoke about a lot of other things besides cheating pros, some of which made sense, and some of which made absolutely no sense at all.

But a lot of folks (even back then) felt that he knew of what he spoke when he spoke about pro poker players cheating.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2012 04:26PM)
I am surprised you are surprised by their incredibly nativity and amazed you think that its OK for disgruntled suckers to come here and rat on the fraternity.

:)
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 29, 2012 04:55PM)
The fraternity... You're the best, lol.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 29, 2012 05:13PM)
About Russ, just a few lines of his VHS (other guys "talking" are William Nirdlinger and John Martino):

"Russ: But Doyle was mostly playing paper and would have the floor man bring it in for him."

"John: Doyle was playing flash like Bill said in the 70's. He was playing flash in deuce to seven - they played no limit. They beat Major Riddle out of millions and millions of dollars. My percentage was 23% to 17%."

I suppose the flash he's talking about is a marking system we call the "white flash".

"Mike: So Johnny Moss was setting up...
Russ: Oh, Johnny Moss was - here - basically the whole hall of fame is the hall of shame.
Mike: Well name - who do you mean specifically? Who in the hall of fame is not?
Russ: Here. Doyle, Chip, Johnny Moss, Slim."

Amarillo Slim, Chip Reese, Doyle Brunson and Johnny Moss! Geez!!!

"Bill: Well, Stu was broke most of the time. Even when he had money he didn't have money but Chip and Doyle would give him money to sit down and play because it was good advertising."

If you have good ears (the sound is horrible) and some time to spend (the video is 4 hours long), I say it again, watch it. Even if all is not exact (who knows after all?), it's valuable. I can upload it on my website if you want.

Edit: No need to upload it, it's available from the following link:

http://www.archive.org/details/RussGeorgievRussGeorgievPokerCheatingVideo
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2012 05:27PM)
I think we have all lost money to the fraternity, when we were young we were all suckers. It does no good whining about it. We have to learn to “love thy enemy” and what that means is give them their due. Love the way they got your money, pay respect to that and learn from it.
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Jan 29, 2012 05:31PM)
Thanks for the link, Arnold.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 29, 2012 05:37PM)
Tommy,

Yep, I've been a sucker. Been cheated at cards turned me into someone "knowledgeable" and I don't hide that's the reason why I learnt to "move" myself too. I don't complain nor whine. That's life. Let's be honest, I prefer being robbed by a run-up artist than by a stupid jerk with a gun. But talking about a fraternity is maybe too much :).

kevin,

You're welcome!
Message: Posted by: NFS (Jan 29, 2012 06:11PM)
The original tape is 6 hours long, unlike the 4 hour version Russ posted online that Arnold linked to. The transcripts of Russ' cheating tapes that were posted on the RGP forum are a little off and incomplete. Some good stuff is missing from the transcripts like when they're interrupting or speaking over each other. I planned on rewriting it but never got around to it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2012 06:35PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciWBzhmOC_o
Message: Posted by: NFS (Jan 29, 2012 08:42PM)
Tommy I'm a bit turned off by your comments toward me. When you've been robbed and it has seriously affected your life, any man with any ounce of dignity wouldn't sit back and take it helplessly. If this is truly your philosophy then I look forward to the day I come to your club so I can have a piece.

I have no problem keeping quiet when taken by someone wittier than me. It wouldn't be the first time.

Unlike a private or underground card game where you always accept the chance of being cheated or not being paid, FTP was an establishment endorsed by several, presumably honest people, attesting to its integrity.

The lack of character by these two individuals concerning their role in FTP and lack of effort to appease the situation is far from anything resembling wit. The lack of wit these individuals have is also painfully transparent in the collusion video. It's repugnant. I have no respect for that.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Jan 29, 2012 09:47PM)
He aforementioned videos seem to have disappeared. Or am I looking in the wrong place? Is this because of the Café that these videos have disappeared? Just asking...
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2012 12:46AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-29 17:26, tommy wrote:
I am surprised you are surprised by their incredibly nativity and amazed you think that its OK for disgruntled suckers to come here and rat on the fraternity.

:)
[/quote]

No honor among thieves, you know...
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Jan 30, 2012 04:01AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-30 01:46, LobowolfXXX wrote:
No honor among thieves, you know...
[/quote]

You just said way more than a mouthful right there.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Jan 30, 2012 04:11AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-29 21:42, NFS wrote:
Unlike a private or underground card game where you always accept the chance of being cheated or not being paid, FTP was an establishment endorsed by several, presumably honest people, attesting to its integrity.

The lack of character by these two individuals concerning their role in FTP and lack of effort to appease the situation is far from anything resembling wit. The lack of wit these individuals have is also painfully transparent in the collusion video. It's repugnant. I have no respect for that.
[/quote]

And youre surprised by this ? Ever hear of the S+L scandal ? Enron ? The whole housing deal ? Maddof ? And youre surprised because a couple of poker slugs pulled a fast one ? Guy, I'm not trying to be smart with you or bust your balls but this whole world is about scams and who can rob who, that's what it is and always has been. In the past it was covered up better, that's all.
Be surprised by nothing.
I got way more respect for a good stick up man, lol.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 30, 2012 05:34AM)
Acesover,

I still can access all the videos linked in that thread. Something must be wrong on your side.

Here's a direct link to Russ Georgiev video (well, the 4 hours long one):

http://www.archive.org/download/RussGeorgievRussGeorgievPokerCheatingVideo/NEWGCA.avi

Just in case, I can upload it to my website, but you'd need to be a member.

PS: I made a version with subtitles in the past (the sound is so awful), which was pretty convenient for non English speaking native like me lol. (In fact, I subtitled just 2 hours if I remember well.) The problem is I dunno where I put it! In case I find it back, I'll tell you boys.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Jan 30, 2012 11:28AM)
Arnold's link works for me.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Jan 30, 2012 06:00PM)
Must be somethign on my end. This is what come up when I try and load it:

RIFF&*‘+AVI LIST~"hdrlavih8W‚9‘°€LIST”strlstrh8vidsxviddµ 9‘w''°€strf((°€ XVIDJUNK
Message: Posted by: silverking (Jan 30, 2012 06:26PM)
Try downloading it to your desktop (if you haven't already) as opposed to trying to view it online in real time.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Jan 31, 2012 02:47AM)
The big pokerstars cheat? Wow, there is something I never heard of. You can turn your tellie on and watch the entire table turn against Phil Hellmuth jr. which is instant collusion no matter how you turn it. In fact, checking a player with a low M out is a valid strategy in Tournament poker (as long as it is not verbally outspoken, which is actually not different then other forms of collusion).

Like Tony45 said: The world is about scamming eachother. He is entirely right.