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Topic: Ammar's Fox Cups...
Message: Posted by: JESmagic (Feb 17, 2012 11:03AM)
Ok, so I decided to watch Ammar's Cups and Balls video again. Every couple of years, I get the urge to watch it...just to refresh the different moves, and mostly listen to Bob Read's historical perspective. This time, I happened to pay attention to Ammar's set of Fox cups. Having a few sets (I'm a fanatic) myself-- both Danny Dew and Jeff Busby, it looked to me like the mouth bead on Ammar's set was quite a bit larger than on any of my sets. In fact, I paused the DVD to look at the cups more closely and, to me, they had a slightly different shape than any of my Paul Fox cups. Having manufactured the JESmagic Squatty Cups--which by the way are still available from RNT2 (shameless plug)--I know that there can be variation between runs of had spun cups. But Ammar's cups just looked different to me. Anyone have any thoughts?

Jonathan Schweid, M.D.
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Feb 17, 2012 11:37AM)
Have you asked Michael? I think he's used more than one kind of cup and I really don't know which exact ones were on the video.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Feb 17, 2012 01:10PM)
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I remember Mike saying he had a set of Johnson Cups...but I could be wrong...

Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 17, 2012 01:14PM)
Michael sold Johnson cups on his website which is probably the reason he said that/started using them.
He did the same thing with those horrible other cups too. They were, imo, designed for all the wrong reasons (to fit the fab fruit).

I believe he originally used PF cups.
Message: Posted by: JESmagic (Feb 17, 2012 01:34PM)
He did originally use Paul Fox cups...but the cup itself has a rather large mouth bead--unlike any of the DD or Busby PF cups in my collection. I'd love to ask Michael about them--what's the best way to contact him?
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Feb 17, 2012 01:50PM)
He's very busy, but I'd simply try a note to him on http://www.ammarmagic.com/contactus.html

They have always been very gracious and helpful.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Feb 17, 2012 02:19PM)
I have a set of Paul Fox Rings 'N Things stainless steel cups. A tennis ball won't fit, though. Gotta find a good final load...fab fruit ain't it...
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Feb 18, 2012 07:35PM)
Mike Ammar originally used Brass set of cups a friend had given him. They looked like Bells of St. Mary's in shape and had a red bag.

He later went through a number of cups through the years.
Paul Fox cups being on the DVD set (and VHS) on the cups and balls companion to his book on it.
The Paul Fox cups he uses on this set resembles the set that several others have used if you look closely.

He used the Johnson cups on TV several times and then later came out with the Ammar Cups.
He said that he retired one of his sets of Paul Fox cups but he really did like the shape and feel of them. He could have gotten them from just about anywhere. He experimented with many many cups over the years. He said he did not use the Brass Paul Fox cups much except to photograph them for the back of the book. They just sat on a shelf along with several other sets he did not like the weight of. The Brass ones were made by Busby I think he said.

Ask him and he will tell you what you want to know Dr. Schweid. He really is easy to talk to.
Bill Palmer would also probably know as well.
Message: Posted by: JESmagic (Feb 18, 2012 08:01PM)
Lol thanks...sent him an email. I was hoping Bill would chime in. I just haven't seen a set of Paul Fox cups with a mouth bead quite as big!
Message: Posted by: djkuttdecks (Feb 21, 2012 03:41PM)
I asked Michael last time I saw him and he typically travels with a set of Johnson Cups now.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 21, 2012 04:49PM)
First of all, the Encore/Ammar cups were not designed to fit Fab Fruit. These cups were designed to fit into a jacket pocket without making it bulge too much. The small Fab Fruit was designed to fit these cups. There were a few problems:

1) The cups were actually too tight. Sometimes, they did not unstack without sticking.
2) They were difficult to find.

I have a set of copper Rings N Things cups that Michael donated to the Museum. They look almost exactly like the ones Richard Turner used -- including the dents. Michael said they were one of his early sets.

Regarding his Paul Fox cups, there are several sets in the museum that have large mouth beads. It all depends on how the fellow at Perigee wiggled his behind when he was spinning the cups. Danny would get a run of cups from Perigee, then he would match them up when they had been polished. It all depended on what was in the box of cups.
Message: Posted by: BCS (Feb 22, 2012 05:14PM)
While we are on the subject of Cups with wide mouth beads, I thought that I would share some photos of what are proto types for the RNT2 JES Squatty 2 Cups (what I was told when I purchased them)....




In some ways they remind me of the mouth beads on the TF Phoenix Cups.

Message: Posted by: JESmagic (Feb 26, 2012 08:21AM)
Wow, those are large! Usually the prototypes hammer out the basic shape of the cup, and the fine "finishing" is saved for the production line.
Message: Posted by: BCS (Feb 26, 2012 12:14PM)
Jonathan… The chrome and polished copper set were purchased from a collector who longer has the fever, they were finished and sold to him.

The JES Squatty 2 Cups are a favorite of mine… I really like the shoulder beads. When they were being conceived, was it you who suggested the 3rd set of beads?

Message: Posted by: JESmagic (Feb 27, 2012 06:33AM)
The Squatty 2 was conceived to fix some of the problems with the original Squatty cup--chiefly that it wouldn't hold a lacrosse ball, which was the main criticism. Jake Zimmerman and I had many discussions on how to fix the problem--which was caused by the depth of the rollers which rolled in the double bead. In redesigning the cup, the original concept was to make it double beaded...but as we went along, Jake suggested that we put a triple bead in the cup to differentiate it from the original. I thought it was a great idea. I must give the credit in the design and function to Jake, because he really did much of the work in the design. I just told him what I wanted and he made it happen. Then, he would send a prototype and I would critique and make suggestions. But, not having knowledge of how to spin cups, and the technical aspects of making the cup I relied heavily on Jake.
Message: Posted by: BCS (Feb 27, 2012 09:02AM)
Jonathan... Thanks for the back story; I enjoy knowing how the Cups came to be. Yes designing the Cup for a larger final load is a good thing, but what attracts me most is the 3rd shoulder bead... Jake and you came up with a beautiful Cup (my favorite). After several years of use, my set has a dark reddish patina to it.

Message: Posted by: JESmagic (Feb 27, 2012 06:22PM)
Do you have a picture? Please post! I agree, I really like the JESmagic Squatty 2 cups. They are the cups that I use most frequently. I will take a picture of mine with the patina (and lacquer) for you to take a look at. But you're right, I think the 3rd shoulder bead makes the cup more deceptive, and improves the aesthetics. I have always loved the double beaded Paul Fox style too...but really don't care for the single bead (ie Monti cups).
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Feb 27, 2012 06:32PM)
Doc, is it time for a JES Squatty cup v3.0?
Message: Posted by: JESmagic (Feb 27, 2012 09:23PM)
Jake, absolutely....let's get on it!
Message: Posted by: BCS (Feb 28, 2012 08:12AM)
Jonathan... Below are some photos I have on hand of my RNT2 JES Squatty 2 Cups, unfortunately the photos tend to make them appear browner than the reddish hues that they have if you were holding them.

As I wrote before, they are my favorite set of Cups... it’s those shoulder beads. My next favorites are my set of DD PF Type 2 Cups and all the different RNT PF Cups that I have. I agree, the single beads as the Monti Cups have are not as aesthetic, however a great Cup just the same.

I also like the look of Traditional Cups that have more of a shelf than a shoulder bead... there are a few Traditional Cups out there with rounded shoulder beads, however to my eye, they are not as attractive... but to each their own, that’s what is so cool about Cups, all the variants.




Message: Posted by: francisngkl (Feb 28, 2012 08:37AM)
They look so well tanned, love it Bruce.

Message: Posted by: BCS (Feb 28, 2012 09:32AM)
Francis... Thanks, I enjoy your Cup photos as well... the fact is we just like Cups...LOL.

Message: Posted by: JESmagic (Feb 28, 2012 05:08PM)
Love the patina of those cups. I can see the reddish hue, very cool. I will take a photo of my personal set--just need to get the battery in my digital camera charged, and post them later this evening. Mine have developed an iridescent yellowish hue. Did you use your "bronzing method" with Palmolive to get that hue, or is a natural patina?
Message: Posted by: BCS (Feb 28, 2012 05:35PM)
Jonathan... the patina on this set is the real deal; they were the first set of Cups that I purchased from RNT2 (Jake era), those and a set of Mendoza Cups which I have been keeping shiny, but now I am letting them turn.

Find some batteries...LOL

Message: Posted by: JESmagic (Feb 29, 2012 09:51AM)
Bruce-- here is my personal set of JESmagic Squatty 2's--the ones I use most often. They have a natural patina to them, and then I coated them with a nitrocellulose guitar lacquer to protect the patina. The balls you see are new working balls that I just made 2 days ago--I needed some practice on my suturing lol. I think they came out nice.
Message: Posted by: BCS (Feb 29, 2012 01:00PM)
Jonathan... Thanks for the photo; yep... they are a great looking set of Cups, the Squatty 2’s look fantastic turned. The lacquer does give them quite the shine... I like it. You did a good job making the balls too.