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Topic: Run in with the police last night...
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Mar 18, 2012 08:18PM)
So, last night was St. Patrick's night and since I am trying to get some publicity for my little magic business, I figured I'd hit the streets. (We also brought along a videographer.)

It was a mad house out there, so my fellow magician and I decided to set up about two blocks away from the epicenter of the party, so we could get groups of people as they were coming and going, rather than risk being trampled.

There were many walking policemen travelling around the street in groups and we decided to let them know what we were doing, and ask permission. After getting the run-around for a bit, we were given the OK by a police sergeant to do magic, geek stuff, and even fire-eating "As long as we were not doing it for money". (Which irked me, but the sergeant was nice enough even if he was ill-informed.)

So, anyway, we set up and get three wonderful huge crowds along with some small groups of three or four people. (We could have made bank, had we actively been soliciting tips, rather than just accepting them when offered.) It was great!

And then a different group of cops walk up, and before I can even get a hello out I get, "Can't do that." I explained to the man that I had asked permission from a sergeant ahead of time but he cut me off midway, "I'm his boss. Can't do that." (Despite being a cop from out of town.)

So I ask if we can continue without the fire tricks, and he says alright, he just didn't want me, "Catching everything on fire." At that, the other officers with him spoke up (obviously jumping on the opportunity to show they agreed with their boss) "Or catching yourself on fire."

We politely agreed but that still grates on me; we were next to a concrete building, on a concrete sidewalk in front of an asphalt street, and it was snowing... how the blazes was I going to catch everything on fire?

I know that I did the smart thing by politely following orders, but the whole experience has left a bad taste in my mouth and I find myself half wishing I had argued the point.

Does anyone have advice for this kind of situation?
Message: Posted by: Devious (Mar 18, 2012 08:31PM)
Eric, I'm assuming you were in Butte, Montana?
The peace officer who gave you a mandate was acting out of his jurisdiction according to your post, yes?

I believe they were mostly concerned with the fire liability issue. Here in San Diego they are very liberal
as to buskers, with the exception of fire acts. Even at nearby Seaport Village that seems to be the case.
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Mar 18, 2012 08:35PM)
Good guess! Montana it was. (The fact that it was snowing probably gave it away, eh?)

I am not sure about jurisdiction, since my town brings in extra officers from other cities during St. Patrick's Day, but I find myself skeptical that he was in fact "the boss", since it seems like he said that to end the conversation as quickly as possible.

I have heard wonderful things about busking in San Diego. (I have some relatives there, so I may make a pilgrimage sometime.)
Message: Posted by: Devious (Mar 18, 2012 08:37PM)
[quote]
I have heard wonderful things about busking in San Diego.
[/quote]
Lol, did you read my "Tip Thief" post?
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Mar 18, 2012 08:39PM)
LOL. Yeah, well, "wonderful" as in "you can make big money" wonderful... if not the best of the best crowd-wise.

Does that happen a lot to you?
Message: Posted by: Devious (Mar 18, 2012 09:01PM)
Just one other time besides last night.
That's what they get for heckling me right?

[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z6HBGrAD6a0/T2aTFIj5rxI/AAAAAAAAAgY/3VtgLtlw9uU/s760/Cherylthief.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: Ekuth (Mar 19, 2012 02:07PM)
Eh, chalk it up to the old "liability" play; or to put it more succinctly- "pass the buck". No one wanted to take responsibility for giving you the "ok" if anything went wrong. They were covering their butts.

At least they didn't shut you down completely!

But yeah, folks are reeeeeeaaal funny about fire effects these days. One reason I don't do much, and then only flashpaper.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Mar 20, 2012 10:31PM)
Yeah, after the Station night club fire here in RI, you're not going to get anybody on your side with fire effects.

BTW, you may have been surrounded by concrete and it was snowing, but you yourself were NOT concrete and were not [i]wearing[/i] concrete and I'm betting you were using gasoline for your torches.
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Mar 20, 2012 10:51PM)
I have juggled fire sticks in the past, but that was many moons ago ... I have to agree with what people here have already said, fire is just not something you can get away with these days. You can expect hassles nearly everywhere.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Mar 21, 2012 12:23PM)
Yeah, I know, and it makes sense that no one would want to assume responsibility for giving me the go ahead. It still bothers me, though, since I go out of my way to be safe. I always /always/ have a fire extinguisher, fire blanket, and water on hand when I perform. I there were a fire, I would probably be the one to put it out, rather than the one who started it.

[quote]
On 2012-03-20 23:31, ed rhodes wrote: ...
BTW, you may have been surrounded by concrete and it was snowing, but you yourself were NOT concrete and were not [i]wearing[/i] concrete and I'm betting you were using gasoline for your torches.
[/quote]

Why exactly would you bet I was using gasoline?
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Mar 21, 2012 09:21PM)
Because that's the standard for torches. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. But you had to be using something flameable and it's not impossible that you or someone in your crowd could get hurt before you got out any of those items you had ready. (Good point having them though.)
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Mar 21, 2012 10:11PM)
Nah, I was using white-gas. It's a good deal safer than gasoline. (Another safety measure!)

Yes, it is conceivable that I could be hurt while doing this and although it is even less likely, it is still conceivable that an audience member could be. I do /see/ the opposition's point of view on this, but how can I deal with it?
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Mar 21, 2012 11:30PM)
I can suggest you get off the sidewalks and on to private property.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Mar 23, 2012 03:54PM)
Fair enough.

I am thinking about getting in touch with the local sheriff's office to ask permission for the future, but I am not sure if I want to risk getting an "absolutely not never no how uh-uh."
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Mar 24, 2012 11:24AM)
Eric, as a cop, I think the problem would be a permit as many areas make money selling permits in their area. That may be what the cops were referring too.

In the future, check local ordinances where you intend to perform and see the regulations on it. If you have a problem, you can show your permit. Ask about any ordinances pertaining to fire use as well and let them know exactly what you do with it.

Last, ask them if tips are ok for you to receive after doing a performance. This covers all ground. Make sure you have permission from any owner's of private property, in writing, if you go onto private property so you won't encounter a ticket, jail or just being thrown off.

Hope this helps.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Mar 24, 2012 04:34PM)
Glenn, thank you for your information filled reply.

I've tried to find local ordinances but I admit to the complete ignorance of where I'd look or how I'd check. The same for buying a permit. Do you know how I could go about this?

I have contacted both the local police department and the local fire department in the past, but I have never heard back. (I think they might just be taking my emails in jest rather than seriously.) I'd push harder for an answer, but I fear that if I did I would get a "no" just so I would quit bugging them.

Thank you kindly.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Mar 25, 2012 03:52AM)
Go down to City Hall, ask where the Bureau of Licenses is and ask them.
I'm not certain whether you should go to you local fire station of if there's a centralized department that they would answer to, either way physically go to the head of the department, no e-mails.

My City Hall in Providence gave me a license with no fee. Unfortunately, it has "at the descretion (sp) of the local police" written on it which one officer decided meant he could say "no" for no reason. Another officer later told me the license was invalid as it had to be renewed each year which the board of licenses denied when I first received the license and later when I complained about the officer. (In the first case. I was told the officer in question, a lieutenant, was "gone," presumably transferred after a number of complaints, the other officer would be "spoken to" and his lieutenant would be contacted. I had the license retyped to state "this license does not expire" just to make certain the point was clear.)
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Mar 25, 2012 08:17AM)
Eric, what Ed said is good advice. If the venue is in the city limits, City Hall would be a good start. If the venue is in the county, check with the county offices on it. I am unfamiliar with their set up in your state. I know those who want to do something in our city limits have to contact City Hall and the County offices, if in the county, for permits or licenses.

I am not familiar with fire regulations in your state, so ask at the City Hall or County Offices about it as well. If they don't know, they should be able to direct you to the office you can inquire.

Most city and county governments have a website showing codes and ordinances on it to allow you to see what can and cannot be done. You might want to go online to see if your area has one of those and get familiar with the codes and laws pertaining to this.

Ed, that term of the cops having discretion on it sounds horrible. That means they can shut you down for no reason. I will say that there are some cops who go overboard with their authority just to bust someone's chops, which is wrong. Sorry to hear you encountered such a cop. They give us a black eye in this business when they overstep their bounds.

Complaints made against an officer should be investigated and they should contact you back to let you know their decision with it. When a person wants to file a complaint against an officer here, I tell them to go to the main headquarters and file a written complaint. That way, it is a matter of record. I cannot speak for other agencies, but that is how we do it here.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: Jim Sparx (Mar 25, 2012 09:34AM)
One of the great things I loved about San Francisco was the park downtown packed with tourist and buskers. This is where Harry Anderson got his start and you can do just about anything except three card monte w gambling. The park was packed with undercovers for the tourist. Also areas at Fishermans Wharf and just about anywhere except Chinatown. This was in the 70s & 80s. Don't know what its like now.
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Mar 25, 2012 11:23AM)
If you go to City Hall, the person to talk to is the City Clerk - they will know who issues the permit. Could be the City Manager, the Bureau of Licenses, or even the Clerk themselves. But whoever it is ... the City's Clerk job is to know who and will be able to tell you. And the upside is that they are often the nicest person working for the city.

I generally don't like asking police, they always seem to know the least. If you ask 3 cops if you are allowed to perform in a city, you will most likely get three different answers - I know because I have done this. I'm not sure you would have better results with the fire department, their job is to put out fires and rescue people - not regulate street performers.

Email has always had poor results for me, addresses change and spam piles up. If you can't go in person, call.

If it were me, I would try to look up the code myself. Failing that, I would ask the City Clerk ... and if I wasn't happy with her answer, I would talk to the City Attorney.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: hou_dini (Mar 25, 2012 01:31PM)
Check to see if the city has a Fire Marshal. That person would/should have all the answers to anything fire related.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Mar 25, 2012 10:22PM)
[quote]
On 2012-03-25 09:17, Police Magician wrote:

Ed, that term of the cops having discretion on it sounds horrible. That means they can shut you down for no reason. I will say that there are some cops who go overboard with their authority just to bust someone's chops, which is wrong. Sorry to hear you encountered such a cop. They give us a black eye in this business when they overstep their bounds.

[/quote]

As I've said; I was stopped about five times. (Five different cops)Once was the lt. who didn't care that I had a license. I was turning "his" street into a "circus" and he "wasn't going to have it." He also considered my "passive bucket" a "direct solicitation" for funds (in direct opposition to what the License Board told me.) He said; "If you didn't have that bucket out, I might consider it." Which made no sense to me. If he was concerned about turning "his" street into a "circus," how would the bucket not being out have any effect on that? Second cop wanted to see my license... I'd left it home. I packed up since I'd entered into an agreement and hadn't kept up my part. Third time, he didn't even ask for my license, he just want to see that I wasn't directly asking for money and seemed to enjoy himself. Fourth time, he looked at the license, looked at my driver's license to verify I was the person who was entitled to hold the busker's license and then told me to continue. The last time was the officer who claimed the license was only good for a year (again, in direct opposition to what the License Board told me.) So I've had the license re-typed with "License does not expire" written on it. (Sadly, they also added; "License is not valid for Waterfire events" since Waterfire has to authorize and and all performers) I've also had my driver's license updated since I don't need him claiming that an expired license cannot be used to prove identity.

Now Chance will say I shouldn't have had to do any of that and that busking should be free to all as a form of free expression. He may be right. But I was raised to follow the rules and try to do so whenever possible. I just get annoyed when they change the rules midstream.
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Mar 26, 2012 12:18AM)
Chance is right, but that doesn't make you wrong.

Speaking only for myself here, I am no more qualified to sue a city than I am to perform open heart surgery.

No disrespect intended here Ed ... but I don't think you are either. Let the singers sing, the dancers dance, and the lawyers can practice law.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: AdamChance (Mar 26, 2012 01:24AM)
Cops are scum... be glad they didn't kill you or arrest you and charge you with something.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Mar 26, 2012 05:12AM)
Cops are not "scum." They're just people trying to do a miserable job as best they can. Some of them are just better at it than others.
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Mar 26, 2012 07:11AM)
[quote]
On 2012-03-26 02:24, AdamChance wrote:
Cops are scum... be glad they didn't kill you or arrest you and charge you with something.
[/quote]That is pure BULL CRAP!!!! and you know it!! Cops see people at the worst times of their lives, as victims of or as commuting crimes. Yet they are almost ALWAYS polite and sincere when dealing with the public. When eveer I travel, either business or pleasure, I set up and busk. I have done this in most of the contigous 48 states plus much of Europe. When I was in places where it was against the law, a cop would always explain to me that it was illegal and why he thought the law was imposed. I always treated the officer with respect and the worst thing that ever happened was I was told to stop, which I did. ususally I'll ask "can I finish this one show and pass the hat?" Most of the time the officer says "OK but this is it." And I still make some money from that show.

if you experience varies start to look at yourself and how YOU come across to the cop, not how he comes across to you. You get back what you give them, a smark alek will suffer the consequences of being a smart alek
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Mar 27, 2012 10:02AM)
Ed, Paddy, thanks for the kind words about cops. Adam may have had some problems with cops that got his mindset about them. I do know that some, as mentioned earlier, do overstep their bounds which will give people a bad impression of them. I do know that many are good and decent people as both of you have stated.

I don't apologise for anyone but myself as I have no control over other cops. I hope Adam encounters some good ones to see that not all are bad. It only takes one bad cop to have people stereotype all of us.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Mar 27, 2012 11:54AM)
You handled that a lot better than I would have Glenn, I had to refrain myself from commenting.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: Ekuth (Mar 27, 2012 03:20PM)
With that kind of an attitude, Adam- it's no wonder you've had difficulties with the police.

WHEN exactly did basic respect and civility fall to the wayside?

Let me put it another way:

He has a badge, gun, handcuffs and the right to use them as well as a working knowledge of the law.
You don't.

Seems like a simple enough equation to me.

Now, on an unrelated related note:
White gas and gasoline are the same thing. The only difference is the level of petroleum refinement.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Mar 27, 2012 05:28PM)
[quote]
On 2012-03-26 02:24, AdamChance wrote:
Cops are scum... be glad they didn't kill you or arrest you and charge you with something.
[/quote]
Spouting out wide sweeping generalizations during in my youth,
is one of the things, that I don't miss from those foolish days.
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Mar 27, 2012 09:49PM)
[quote]
On 2012-03-27 11:02, Police Magician wrote:
It only takes one bad cop to have people stereotype all of us.

Glenn
[/quote]

The same can be said about magicians....
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Mar 28, 2012 01:57AM)
Wow, I am impressed with how mature most people are being about that little spat...

I have continued poking around for information, and I will probably be going by the courthouse this weekend to talk to some folk face to face. I will let everyone know how it goes.

(And let's just call my fuel Coleman Fuel, to avoid confusion.)
Message: Posted by: AdamChance (Mar 28, 2012 04:33AM)
[quote]
On 2012-03-27 16:20, Ekuth wrote:
With that kind of an attitude, Adam- it's no wonder you've had difficulties with the police.

WHEN exactly did basic respect and civility fall to the wayside?

Let me put it another way:

He has a badge, gun, handcuffs and the right to use them as well as a working knowledge of the law.
You don't.

Seems like a simple enough equation to me.

Now, on an unrelated related note:
White gas and gasoline are the same thing. The only difference is the level of petroleum refinement.
[/quote]

I've never had difficulties with the police myself.

it just seems like every week, I'm reading stories about cops shooting innocent people, beating people up for no good reason, shooting the family dog for no reason... just doing completely crazy stuff. and this happens all the time.

in many places, the cops are really corrupt... sometimes to the point where there's not one cop that is not on the take in city. ever see the movie serpico? that was a true story... and that stuff still happens today.

the police almost never get in trouble. it's extremely rare that a cop is charged, and even rarer that they're sentenced to any jail time. they NEVER rat on other cops. they lie for each other constantly. they have no problems lying to put you in jail. and the few cops that don't do these kinds of things, they never rat on the cops that do.

watch this film to see how the cops behaved in my city a couple years ago during the g20 summit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YqU9lr9G-0

about a year ago... just down the street from where I live.... there was a mentally handicapped guy going to get pizza with his mother... the cops tried to talk to him, the guy couldn't really respond because he was retarded and didn't know what was happening... the cops tackled him, smashed his head into the ground and he died. they murdered him in broad daylight for no reason... and none of them got in any trouble, let alone charged with a crime.

or just go ahead and type in "police brutality" into youtube and watch some videos. or check out this guy's channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/CopsOutofControl

so my advice is to stay away from cops... don't talk to them... don't ever call them unless it's absolutely necessary. you never know when they'll decide to beat you up and charge you with resisting arrest.
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Mar 28, 2012 06:07AM)
Adam, quoting you tube as evidence of universal police brutality is like quoting Readers Digest in a doctoral thesis. Look at FACTS and you will find that, yes there is a small minority probably <1% of cops that are bad. You're like the idiots that say all buskers are just bums and it's another way of begging for money. None of us have any real talent because a couple of dirty lazy bums try to do a card trick to get money.

Use LOGIC instead of your kidneys before making statements that make you appear stupid
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Mar 28, 2012 06:50AM)
Adam, I can see where you would stereotype all cops for the sins of a few. I know for a fact that cops who have broken the law have been punished and sent to prison for their wrongdoings. Our agency had a couple go to prison for violating the law and their oath of office.

All I am saying is that not all are like this. I have read accounts from the media as well. One such account I knew about. The media got it wrong and did not give the full story just to sell papers. They played on the ratings scale as long as they could to sell papers. When the full story was shown, by another form of media, the newspaper had to come clean on it, although they stated they did not have the full story, which I knew was a lie, as I knew the reporter was at the same conference the others were and did not report it all.

I used to be the public information officer for our agency. One television station made a mistake one night about a training exercise that was faxed to them way in advance of what would take place. They reported it as a real disaster and blamed us. I had the fax shown where they received it. I asked for a public apology to us and the other agencies they blamed. They did not make such an apology. Therefore, they got no more news from me for the rest of the time I was in that office.

Yes, I am familar with the media and some of the stunts they do as well, but I don't stereotype all of them. I go on an individual basis, not as a whole. For me to blame a group for the wrong of one person is unjustified. I hope you see my point on this. You may need a cop one day to save your life. I hope not, but if that happens, I hope you will be grateful to them and not berate them, especially if the cop gives his life to save yours.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Mar 28, 2012 08:26AM)
Let's also keep in mind that there is a difference between corrupt and overzealous. Two of the three cops that made me move on were simply overzealous; one refused to acknowledge my license, the other insisted the license was expired although I tried to tell him it wasn't. The last one was just doing his job as I didn't have the license with me.
Message: Posted by: Octopus Sun (Mar 28, 2012 08:48AM)
People are not retarded!
They are mentally challenged.
The only retarded person here is Adam with his ignorant comments.
Message: Posted by: AdamChance (Mar 28, 2012 01:09PM)
When I woke up today... here's another story that was posted on my facebook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUhRwFACo0Y

this stuff happens literally all the time. and I'm willing to bet any amount of money that these cops don't get charged with assault.

in my last post I said "you never know when they'll decide to beat you up and charge you with resisting arrest." ... and then today I see a story on my facebook about a guy who the cops beat up for no reason and charged him with resisting arrest in my city. am I psychic? no.... I just know that this sort of stuff is commonplace.

also... it's a lot more than just a bad 1% of cops. but my big problem is that when the "bad apples" commit crimes, they hide behind the blue wall of silence. police are worse than gang members when it comes to keeping your mouth shut and not ratting on one of your own. so if there are "good cops" out there... they let the bad cops run wild.... which doesn't make them "good cops" in my books.

and sure... there's the occasional time where the media gets the story wrong. but there are probably a hundred other times where the media doesn't cover the story at all, because there's no video evidence and it's the word of one person against a group of officers.
Message: Posted by: AdamChance (Mar 28, 2012 01:12PM)
[quote]
On 2012-03-28 09:48, Octopus Sun wrote:
People are not retarded!
They are mentally challenged.
The only retarded person here is Adam with his ignorant comments.
[/quote]

mentally challenged and retarded mean the same thing.

if you say something like "that magic trick is retarded" ... that not politically correct. but there's nothing wrong with calling a mentally handicapped person mentally retarded.
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Mar 28, 2012 02:05PM)
Adam, I will say one more thing and I will be done. Some cops will not rat out the others, but they, too, can be charged if they know something and don't reveal it during an investigation. I will tell the truth if I am knowledgable on something against a person. It is my sworn duty. I am a loner, which means I don't hang out with my cop buddies. I have my family, my children, grand children and great grandchildren that I am with most of my off time.

When I was a deputy in New York state years ago, there was a deputy who treated inmates bad. He was verbally abusive toward them. One day I was assigned to transport some of them from the county jail to state prison. The deputy they assigned to me for this was this abusive deputy. I went to the Chief Deputy and told him I would not make the trip with this deputy as he is a liability. I explained his abusive manner toward inmates and told him that if the inmates started beating him up, I would stand back and watch as he deserved it.

To make a long story short, he was reassigned and I got a better deputy to go with me. I told this bad deputy that I did not want him working with me due to his attitude toward inmates. You know what he told me when I asked him why he was that way to inmates? He said inmates were scum.

This will be my last post on your subject matter. I hope the media will start showing the good stuff we do, but it does not make news.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: AdamChance (Mar 28, 2012 06:40PM)
^^^ well, you sound like a descent cop to me. to be honest, I don't have as much of a problem with a lot of the old time cops who have been doing the job for decades. it seems like the people who decided to become cops back in the 70s or whenever, went into that line of work for the right reasons. It's very rare that you see a 60 year old veteran cop do anything crazy. normally it's the young guys who take steroids, work out at the gym, drink too much, etc. that end up being thugs with badges and guns on power trips. in most of the cases where cops cross the line, it's the younger cops. a lot of the time, it's these drug task force swat team type people that get the address wrong and storm the wrong house and end up shooting innocent people. Obviously I've got no problems with a cop who is a great grandfather and a family man who I would imagine as being a detective doing paper work and solving real crimes.

so ya... if I see a 60 year old cop out on the street, I'm not too worried about anything. if I see some 22 year old cop, walking around with his chest bulged out... just stay out of his way and don't do anything that might **** him off because you never know sometimes with these people.
Message: Posted by: Ekuth (Mar 28, 2012 06:45PM)
[quote]
On 2012-03-28 14:12, AdamChance wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-03-28 09:48, Octopus Sun wrote:
People are not retarded!
They are mentally challenged.
The only retarded person here is Adam with his ignorant comments.
[/quote]

mentally challenged and retarded mean the same thing.

if you say something like "that magic trick is retarded" ... that not politically correct. but there's nothing wrong with calling a mentally handicapped person mentally retarded.
[/quote]

First, let me state that while I do not agree with your sentiments regarding the police, I do respect the civilized manner in which you have responded to the replies about your comments on this thread.

Your last statement quoted is completely backwards, however. Calling a mentally handicapped person 'retarded' is akin to calling an African American the 'n' word. Stating the same about a card trick, while gauche and rude, is not nearly as offensive as applying the term to a person.

That said, I do believe I see the thrust of your argument- but you are sticking to the strictest definition of the word to downplay the offensive connentation of it. This is comparable to a lawyer sticking to the letter of the law to circumvent the meaning of the law.

In regards to the gasoline issue, Coleman fuel is the brand name for white gas; also- interesting fact- in an emergency, your car will run off of white gas.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Mar 28, 2012 06:53PM)
[quote]
On 2012-03-28 19:40, AdamChance wrote:
^^^ well, you sound like a descent cop to me. to be honest, I don't have as much of a problem with a lot of the old time cops who have been doing the job for decades. it seems like the people who decided to become cops back in the 70s or whenever, went into that line of work for the right reasons. It's very rare that you see a 60 year old veteran cop do anything crazy. normally it's the young guys who take steroids, work out at the gym, drink too much, etc. that end up being thugs with badges and guns on power trips. in most of the cases where cops cross the line, it's the younger cops. a lot of the time, it's these drug task force swat team type people that get the address wrong and storm the wrong house and end up shooting innocent people. Obviously I've got no problems with a cop who is a great grandfather and a family man who I would imagine as being a detective doing paper work and solving real crimes.

so ya... if I see a 60 year old cop out on the street, I'm not too worried about anything. if I see some 22 year old cop, walking around with his chest bulged out... just stay out of his way and don't do anything that might **** him off because you never know sometimes with these people.
[/quote]

Also police training is much different than it was 30 years ago and beyond, now they are trained in a militarized fashion and take orders without question. The younger officers, yes I've seen many on a power trip with puffed up chests...

I admire Glen, he sounds like a stand up officer and would be one I WOULD trust!
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Mar 28, 2012 07:53PM)
Thank you. I am 58 years old and on the street doing patrol. Yes, our training years ago was a little different, but not much. More officer safety issues have been of late due to a lot of things happening. Many have called me the "Andy Griffith" of our Mayberry. Of course I cannot keep up with all these other younger bucks, but I hold my own.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: Chance (Mar 28, 2012 11:54PM)
Glenn, you are not the norm. Would to God that every cop I've ever encountered while busking could have had your maturity and calm, and your respect for the arts.

But the truth is that of all the countries I have busked, the USA is the only place where I have been verbally and physically threatened, and beaten, and arrested... for the crime of being a street performer. And it hasn't happened just once, but dozens of times all across the country. It makes busking in Russia or Bulgaria seem like a trip to Disneyland.

The one time I encountered a senior officer with your mentality was in Phoenix. He's the only one to ever approach me with an honest curiosity with no undercurrent of hostility of obsessive need for control. It turned out that he was the leader of the Phoenix SWAT team. We ended up having a really great conversation, and he was sincerely interested in learning all about the busking lifestyle. I left him with copies of Stephen Baird's early books (before he had a web site) that discussed buskers' rights, and he promised me to research the material and then teach it to his men. I bet I would have had the same type of conversation with you. The other 80 times, well, not so much.
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Mar 29, 2012 11:20AM)
Chance, truly sorry to hear about your experiences as well. I guess us old guys are the last of the dinosaurs of the old breed. I pray others, who are younger, will treat people with the due respect due them and not let the badge go to their head. Even when I was younger, I was not a hot dogger, but had the same disposition as I do now.

My Southern heritage, along with the teachings of my parents and my faith has made me what I am today. And, of course Sheriff Andy Taylor of Mayberry said it best; "When you are dealing in law enforcement, you are dealing with people, and sometimes it is better to use your head and heart rather than going by the book". As long as it is not a felony, I can do that, except in family violence issues.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: Devious (Apr 1, 2012 07:54AM)
To infuse some levity in this thread.
[url=http://youtu.be/N7TzPEYci_w]Gee Wizz[/url]
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Apr 1, 2012 08:44AM)
Love it Devious.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 1, 2012 10:53AM)
I noticed (in the parts of the video I watched) it was the younger cops who came around and checked to see what was happening. The older cops ran up behind the guy and grabbed him from the back to stop him from "urinating."
Message: Posted by: Chance (Apr 1, 2012 12:11PM)
Yeah, loved the one cop yelling about handcuffs and such. Typical bullying tactics. That guy had it easy. I've had guns brandished during magic shows, and one time about a dozen cops swarmed me while twisting balloons. Gotta keep those streets safe from unwanted latex, doncha know!

I could write a book...
Message: Posted by: imgic (Apr 1, 2012 01:48PM)
I saw professional police officers, and upOn realizing it was a joke and the kind and compliant behavior of the prankster they replied in kind. I've always lived by rule that you are kind and respectful to people who pay who, cook for you or have weapons. Never failed me...
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 1, 2012 08:03PM)
Oh yeah, they were all professional, but the old guard first instinct was to grab the guy and the young guys first instinct was to find out what was going on.
Message: Posted by: Chance (Apr 1, 2012 08:35PM)
Right, like it's so hard to stand 20 feet away and SAY, "Hey buddy, what'cha doin' over there?"
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Apr 2, 2012 12:38PM)
Chance, when a gun is pointed at you, it looks like a cannon, even if it is a small one. Sorry again that you have had this happen.

On a side note, when we got public urination calls, when I approached the subject, I did so from the rear and on either the left or right side, a good distance from them. Officer safey for that and also not wanting to be urinated on.

The best call I got was when someone opened a can of cream corn, hid the can on his side away from the window and pretended to vomit at one of the windows at a restaurant. That was a classic. I don't know if anyone has any video of something like this, but I would love to see it and see the reactions of the people.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: Beowulf (Apr 3, 2012 09:24AM)
Back to the brick and concrete observation: got shut down once on the beach in Ocean City for passing torches. All sand and far from sunbathers. Folks were asking if they had time to go get video cameras to record us. Guess the guard figured we might make glass.
Message: Posted by: Faulkner (Apr 3, 2012 10:47PM)
I haven't heard many stories of street performers starting buildings on fire...I do know more than a few have burned themselves and others...police don't like ya burning the tourist...burns cause lawyers to appear
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Apr 4, 2012 12:12AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-01 08:54, Devious wrote:
To infuse some levity in this thread.
[url=http://youtu.be/N7TzPEYci_w]Gee Wizz[/url]
[/quote]

I could not stop laughing. Thanks Devious!!

You get a 'non' good natured cop, they'll arrest you. Even though they know the judge will toss it out, they want to punish you for the prank.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 5, 2012 05:00AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-03 10:24, Beowulf wrote:
Back to the brick and concrete observation: got shut down once on the beach in Ocean City for passing torches. All sand and far from sunbathers. Folks were asking if they had time to go get video cameras to record us. Guess the guard figured we might make glass.
[/quote]

Everybody thinks they know what they're doing until someone gets burned. Whether you or a spectator, it doesn't matter. The cops job is to keep potential problems at bay.
Message: Posted by: Chance (Apr 5, 2012 08:34AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-05 06:00, ed rhodes wrote:
...The cops job is to keep potential problems at bay.[/quote]

Sorry Ed, but I couldn't disagree more. You are suggesting pre-emptive law enforcement. Views like this lead to a "Nanny State". I'm a grown man, and I'd like to be able to live my life and practice my craft without anyone looking over my shoulder second-guessing me -- especially the State. If I break a law, [i]then[/i] come and get me. Until then, please State, keep the hell out of my business. The only person that has the right to filter my words or my actions is me, and I won't abdicate that right to anyone, especially a faceless State entity.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 5, 2012 11:13AM)
"Reckless endangerment" is against the law in most places. Now it's up to the cop to decide what constitutes reckless endangerment.
I think working with flammable substances in front of a crowd would be pretty high up there on the list.
Message: Posted by: Chance (Apr 5, 2012 01:15PM)
Terrible analogy. Reckless endangerment is not a fill-in-the-blanks rule. You're obviously OK with living in a Nanny State. I'm not. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 5, 2012 03:56PM)
I'm comfortable following rules (as long as the rule makers follow them too!) You obviously are enthralled with living up to your name and taking chances. Good for you. I have done that way back in my callow youth, it never ended well.
Message: Posted by: Chance (Apr 5, 2012 04:28PM)
I am neither callow nor young. If you call acting like I'm free in what is supposed to be the freest nation on Earth, then yes, I like taking chances.

If more buskers acted like me we wouldn't be having these discussions. But since they mostly act like you, we are.
Message: Posted by: mota (Apr 5, 2012 05:24PM)
The problem with police is they can do so much damage to your life and never be held responsible. As a result this type of work attracts males who are already on a power trip. If you get a bad magician nothng really happens to you...a bad cop can be a disaster. They have pepper spray, tasers, clubs and guns. Many of them like using them. For all practical purposes, just disagreeing with a cop is a crime.

Pretty much any cop can arrest you if they want to. It doesn't matter if the charge sticks, you still get the joy of the experience. The US Supreme Court just ruled that for any arrest, no matter how minor, they can strip search you.

I have had mostly good cops in my life. I have also seen a few bad cops...just bullies. I know a few who have framed people on major charges and allow violent crimes to go unchecked, just because they didn't like the guy.

Cops are best avoided whenever possible. If someone can tell me which are good and which are bad I'll reconsider that approach but until then I will live carefully.

What I see here is the guys with the most street time have different stories than those who mostly post and only go out once in a while. I don't mean that as an insult. Until you have had the joy of a power-mad cop in your life you won't understand.

It does little good to say most cops are good....they are but that does not help when you meet the bad one.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 6, 2012 12:02AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-05 17:28, Chance wrote:
I am neither callow nor young. If you call acting like I'm free in what is supposed to be the freest nation on Earth, then yes, I like taking chances.

If more buskers acted like me we wouldn't be having these discussions. But since they mostly act like you, we are.
[/quote]

Chance my callow youth was many years ago. You want to be free? Be my guest. I am certain you are one of the sadly few people who knows how to act responsibly and take responsibility for what you do. But "free" does not equate with "anarchy." When people have to interact with each other, there has to be rules as to their behavior.

I'm sorry you see it as a "Nanny state."

I see handling a flammable substance in a crowded situation as perfectly befitting the concept of "reckless endangerment."
"Oh, let me do a flame eating act here on the beach. You have to take my work for it that I know what I'm doing, that the flammable substance won't burn me or anyone in my audience. That there's absolutely no chance of the container catching on fire or exploding. And if it does? So what? They came to see a fire eating act, they must have been willing to take the risks involved!" Never mind that Gene Simmons, a man who'd been trained by professional circus fire eaters, still managed to set himself on fire at least five times. And that was with all proper precautions and a fire crew standing by for exactly that purpose. Is your busker on the beach going to have that? I'm certain the crew running the Great White show thought; "We know what we're doing. We've done this a thousand times." Well, the thousand and first time caused the fourth deadliest nightclub fire in America killing about 96 people and maiming countless more.

I'm sorry you think trying to nip something like that in the bud constitutes a "Nanny State."
Message: Posted by: Chance (Apr 6, 2012 01:25AM)
I never said that. I said your comment about what a cops job is, is what leads to a nanny state. You are conflating statements from 2 or 3 different posts in you post above.

If you want to discuss open flames usage in a busking act, we can do that.

If you want to discuss what the police are actually allowed to do, we can to [i]that[/i].

If you want to discuss the merits of what constitutes a nanny state, we can do that too.
Message: Posted by: mota (Apr 6, 2012 01:26AM)
So it is anarchy is it? Seriously?

Busking fire eating on the beach is not the same as White Snake lighting off fireworks inside a closed building. Not a good example, not even relevant. When a fire eater burns down a beach I'll change my mind.

The example of Gene Simmons is a very good example, though. He understands the risks and chooses to go for it. He has a right to do that as long as he does not endanger anyone else. Outside this is not a problem. Indoors you could have a point but I don't think much of Chance's street busking is indoors.

So we have the term anarchy completely misused and a couple irrelevant examples.

Perhaps you could explain further how the police are protecting us from Chance's other street acts also. I understand he does escapes (and probably magic, though I don't know), human statue and balloons. I don't know what danger is posed to the public by escapes. Human statue is only a danger to the performer with all that skin painted over.

Wait...balloons...a kid under 3 might get one and choke on it. Better ban it.

The topic here is police over-stepping their power. When they stop a street performer they usually aren't trying to protect anybody. They just don't want THOSE people (you know...the homeless) bothering people with money or taking a dollar that might otherwise go to a local merchant. If you a street performer you are a bum in many cops eyes. Public safety has little or nothing to do with it when street performing is concerned.

I think I have seen this pattern before. In the late Robert Anton Wilson's book, "Prometheus Rising", he shows a cartoon with two babies and the two primal imprints. One baby is thinking, "Mommy hold me". The other is thinking, "It's fun to explore".

One wants a nanny state, the other wants freedom. Both have their place in the world and we need both types of people for society to function but I think the attitude of exploration and adventure is better for a street performer. The attitude of "protect me" is probably better suited for experiences other than street performing.

Edit added: I see Chance posted while I was writing...he was more succinct.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Apr 6, 2012 01:42AM)
Here is something to ponder, "What IF the street performer is also involved in law enforcement?"
Would you think any more or less of him? "What about his own dealings with the dichotomy?"
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Apr 6, 2012 03:52AM)
Ed, I have backed off of this thread because it seems like is has just become a place to air their grievances towards policeman and although I do have a few I feel that this is not the time nor the place to air them, especially after Glenn was so polite.

However, in basically stating that I will catch myself on fire, burn my audience, and cause explosions, you sir are being impolite. Is fire-performance a specialty of yours? I get the distinct feeling that it isn't. May I ask (without being rude or overly prying) why you seem so dead set against fire acts?
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Apr 6, 2012 03:55AM)
Ed, I have backed off of this thread because it seems like is has just become a place to air their grievances towards policeman and although I do have a few I feel that this is not the time nor the place to air them, especially after Glenn was so polite.

However, in basically stating that I will catch myself on fire, burn my audience, and cause explosions, you sir are being impolite. Is fire-performance a specialty of yours? I get the distinct feeling that it isn't. May I ask (without being rude or overly prying) why you seem so dead set against fire acts?

(As an update: it turns out that another performer in town is friends with someone in the police department and I am hoping to meet with him, soon.)
Message: Posted by: Devious (Apr 6, 2012 03:56AM)
You have shown so much class and tact Eric.
It's hard to believe you use the term awful, after your name.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 6, 2012 04:00AM)
I think busking is a very loose area of entertainment. I doubt you have fire extinguishers and trained crew standing by as did Gene. I think dealing with flammable substances in crowds is a bad idea.

Chance, I'm sorry if I clouded the issue. But I don't agree that following rules leads to a "nanny state," I'm sorry that you appear to.
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Apr 6, 2012 04:14AM)
Devious, why thank you! If it helps, think of it as "awe-full" rather than "awful". ; )

Ed, earlier in the discussion I said that I had a fire extinguisher, a fire blanket, and water all nearby. I believe I said that sometime after you made the observation that I was not made of concrete. (Which is true enough, as I do not have the patience to be a living statue.) I may have neglected to mention it then, but the other magician who was accompanying me was also providing fire-watch. I am a professional and I conduct myself as such when performing, whether on stage or on the street.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 6, 2012 04:31AM)
I stand corrected. I didn't see references to fire control equipment. I'm certain anybody in your crowd who got set on fire will appreciate that you have the means to put them out. I still think fire in an semi-intimate setting as relates to busking is a mistake, but I acknowledge that you're dealing with the dangers.
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Apr 6, 2012 04:43AM)
And that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

I take every precaution I can to make my performances safe. When I asked earlier if fire-performance was a specialty of yours, I did so in earnest because I wanted to know how best to address your concerns.

If you have little experience and are intrigued by the safety aspect of it, I highly encourage you to look into fire eating more thoroughly. You'll understand that the torches we use are smaller than most people expect, the fuels we use don't "splash" off our torches and are less hot and/or explosive than many people expect, and that we do not shoot fire out of our mouths. (Although I do perform fire breathing, I only do it in controlled venues.)

If you have experience in fire-performance, then we could get into the specifics of exactly what techniques I use at an up-close venue as opposed to a stage, the fire-team I have trained and how I have trained them, my exact fuel mixture, and my safety equipment.

I'm not here to argue. I only want to convince you (and anyone reading this) that fire acts are not nearly as bad as they are made out to be. (When they are performed responsibly, but that can be said of a lot of things.(
Message: Posted by: Chance (Apr 6, 2012 11:29AM)
Ed, the reality is that most buskers would agree with your comments of letting sleeping dogs lie. That "rules" should always be followed, and that if a policeman confronts you and tells you his "rules" for that day or that pitch, then you should blindly agree with them and comply, even if they are rules that you suspect violate your rights. 99% of all buskers reading this would agree with you that this is the smart way to go.

IMHO rights are worth fighting for, and we only lose them when we stop. People who react as you do to unlawful directives weaken the nation in general, and free speech rights in particular.

The pity is that you're getting miffed at me, when you should be geting miffed at the governmental intrusion we are discussing. I'm not the one keeping you down, I'm the guy trying to set you free. But you're so comfortable in your chains that you simply don't know any better. That's the real crime here, and it galls me to no end.

You can keep calling me names if you wish. Meanwhile, between the 2 of us, while you're constantly running from the fight, I am the one risking my personal safety, my family's well-being, and spending my hard-earned money to fight these battles on your behalf. You're Welcome.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 6, 2012 02:25PM)
I don't think I've called you any names. If I have, it was certainly unintentional and in the heat of the moment. I apologize retroactively.

Best of luck to you.
Message: Posted by: Hawkan (Apr 6, 2012 03:17PM)
Devious: I am a cop. I did busk part-time a couple of years ago (on my cop-work-free days and vacations) and had some encounters with my "colleagues" - who didnīt know me as a cop. Never had any problems, I did as they said when they had a right to ask me to move. And I didnīt have a problem when they were wrong and I explained it to them. Maybe itīs different in Sweden, I donīt know.

Håkan
:wavey:
Message: Posted by: Chance (Apr 6, 2012 03:37PM)
Yes, in Europe things are VERY different.
Message: Posted by: Surgei (Apr 6, 2012 03:47PM)
[quote]
On 2012-03-27 16:20, Ekuth wrote:
With that kind of an attitude, Adam- it's no wonder you've had difficulties with the police.

WHEN exactly did basic respect and civility fall to the wayside?

Let me put it another way:

He has a badge, gun, handcuffs and the right to use them as well as a working knowledge of the law.
You don't.
[/quote]
Might makes right. How many times do Police officers have to get in trouble across the board for you to realize that the many of the rules they try to enforce and the ways they enforce them are wrong? If you are not willing to wear the silver bracelets yourself perhaps you deserve the run around you get from the Police. If a cop or a city is wrong they are wrong. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. I have yet to meet a police officer that knows more about the law then myself. I have only been arrested once. That officer is no longer a police officer, no she did not retire.
[quote]
Now, on an unrelated related note:
White gas and gasoline are the same thing. The only difference is the level of petroleum refinement.
[/quote]
This is about like saying that wheat and flower is the same thing the only difference is the level of refinement. One is explosive the other is not.


Glenn,
Are you familiar with Color of Law crimes. Just because a council passes and ordinance does not mean you must enforce it. Busker laws often violate federal statutes and you as the officer face the prison time not the council. When it comes to activities in the public forum, the best policy is to make sure no other laws are being broken and avoid the busker laws all together. There is not a judge in the country that would allow a jurisdiction to dismiss you for not enforcing an illicit ordinance. Pushing people around on the streets and sidewalks puts you in the category of scum, no matter what "job" you are doing.
Message: Posted by: Surgei (Apr 6, 2012 04:17PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-05 06:00, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-04-03 10:24, Beowulf wrote:
Back to the brick and concrete observation: got shut down once on the beach in Ocean City for passing torches. All sand and far from sunbathers. Folks were asking if they had time to go get video cameras to record us. Guess the guard figured we might make glass.
[/quote]

Everybody thinks they know what they're doing until someone gets burned. Whether you or a spectator, it doesn't matter. The cops job is to keep potential problems at bay.
[/quote]Nope. It is to restore order within the law.
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Apr 6, 2012 07:04PM)
Surgei, getting away from the apparently very serious argument about whether police are scum or not, how do you personally deal with it when told by police to move or end your performance?
Message: Posted by: Police Magician (Apr 6, 2012 07:12PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-06 16:47, Surgei wrote:
Glenn,
Are you familiar with Color of Law crimes. Just because a council passes and ordinance does not mean you must enforce it. Busker laws often violate federal statutes and you as the officer face the prison time not the council. When it comes to activities in the public forum, the best policy is to make sure no other laws are being broken and avoid the busker laws all together. There is not a judge in the country that would allow a jurisdiction to dismiss you for not enforcing an illicit ordinance. Pushing people around on the streets and sidewalks puts you in the category of scum, no matter what "job" you are doing.
[/quote]

Yes. I have been asked at times to act "under color of law" by people, my own family included, to which I told them all I would not do. I am not familar with federal laws that buskers laws would violate. Could you explain further on this?

Regarding cops who overstep their bounds, as mentioned before, if they are in violation of Constitutional Deprevatation, they can be held accountable (civil rights violations). Again, unless someone is a danger to themselves or others, leave them alone and let them entertain the people. Buskers, check with local authorities and explain what you do so they understand. In some cases, this is all you need to do to keep them off your butt.

Glenn
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 6, 2012 10:10PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-06 16:37, Chance wrote:
Yes, in Europe things are VERY different.
[/quote]

I've heard in England they're very hard on buskers. It was on another thread here.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 7, 2012 12:55PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-06 20:12, Police Magician wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-04-06 16:47, Surgei wrote:
Glenn,
Are you familiar with Color of Law crimes. Just because a council passes and ordinance does not mean you must enforce it. Busker laws often violate federal statutes and you as the officer face the prison time not the council. When it comes to activities in the public forum, the best policy is to make sure no other laws are being broken and avoid the busker laws all together. There is not a judge in the country that would allow a jurisdiction to dismiss you for not enforcing an illicit ordinance. Pushing people around on the streets and sidewalks puts you in the category of scum, no matter what "job" you are doing.
[/quote]

Yes. I have been asked at times to act "under color of law" by people, my own family included, to which I told them all I would not do. I am not familar with federal laws that buskers laws would violate. Could you explain further on this?

Regarding cops who overstep their bounds, as mentioned before, if they are in violation of Constitutional Deprevatation, they can be held accountable (civil rights violations). Again, unless someone is a danger to themselves or others, leave them alone and let them entertain the people. Buskers, check with local authorities and explain what you do so they understand. In some cases, this is all you need to do to keep them off your butt.

Glenn
[/quote]

Yes, I mentioned once that I'd been stopped five times and asked to move on three. One of those was (in my opinion) legitimate as I agreed to have a license and in that case had left it home. The other two were not. One was a lt. who decided he didn't want a "circus" on "his" street. The third was a patrolman who refused to accept that the Council had told me the license didn't need renewal. He insisted that it needed to be renewed every year. (I have since had a new license typed up with "does not need renewal" printed on it.) Complaining to City Hall, I was told the lt. had received a number of complaints and had been transferred. The patrolman would be "spoken to" and his lt. would be addressed as well.
Message: Posted by: The Mighty Fool (Apr 12, 2012 12:35PM)
Wow. This thread was a heavy read.

Regarding Eric: If there's a performer geeking with fire, I think it's a safe bet that he / she knows more about fire than I do and is aware of what theyre doing. If there are no burn-scars on them, then theyre obviously good enough at what they do.

Regarding the whole police thingy: A cop's knowledge of the law is usually minimal at best. If dragged into court, all a cop's power vanishes when faced with a lawyer. When cops arrest you, theyre basicly playing the odds that you either cant or wont consult a good attorney.


************(bear in mind, I mean arrested for some civil infraction or perceived slight such as in Eric's case. If the cop arrests you during an act of assault / murder / arson, etc., that's different)*****************************************************************************************

The flip-side to the whole police-power equation, in addition to the courts, is the 2nd ammendment. The right to bear arms was designed as a militia-raising measure, but today it also serves as a sort of unwritten agreement of trust between the citizens and the agents of the state. If things ever did get really bad enough, the public have a means of fighting back. Which of course would result in widespread destruction death and chaos, so let's hope it never DOES get that bad!
Message: Posted by: Devious (Apr 20, 2012 01:28PM)
The only kind of harrassment that I have been recieving from the police department lately,
is a request for a performance at an upcoming fundraiser.

Have a great a "fin de semana"(weekend)!
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Apr 21, 2012 12:39PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-06 12:29, Chance wrote:


The pity is that you're getting miffed at me, when you should be geting miffed at the governmental intrusion we are discussing. I'm not the one keeping you down, I'm the guy trying to set you free. But you're so comfortable in your chains that you simply don't know any better. That's the real crime here, and it galls me to no end.


[/quote]

This goes for many sheeple here at the Café...
Message: Posted by: Eric the Excellent (Apr 21, 2012 01:49PM)
The Mighty Fool: I've always thought that if a fire-performer has scars on them it means they are an experienced one because it shows that they have been at it long enough to get burned but still kept practicing. (Rather than getting burned and quitting.)