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Topic: Why has magic stop being a community?
Message: Posted by: MichalMystic (Apr 10, 2012 04:18PM)
Alright I've been silent for almost 10 years now, but I think it time for some to say something.....

How is that the magician have gone from being a close brotherhood to nothing but a bunch of ego maniacs and whiners? One of my reason for always being in the background is even when I was 12 and first join my local ring..I quickly learned it wasnt about magic it was like highschool.... all about popularity and politics and very little with helping the magic community.

Heck is anyone else like me when they remember when even here it was about helping..knowledge.

Now I can't even read a basic thread with out seeing name calling..out and out rudeness.

Ever since magic hit the internet magic has been taught in a selfish manner..it all about look at me and how cool I look.
This has never and I repeat never been the point of magic..it was never about the magician himself..it about entertaining people...making them laugh..taking them to somewhere they never been.

This has change now it all about check my crappy YouTube vids of me performing for no one and and magic masterbating and splashing 52 cards all over the screen.

Heck it even come to the point if you go into a magic shop for some help and god forbid you didn't buy off them...you get no help. I understand for them magic a business, but why did you open the shop in the first place? To help other to help the magic community. Next time think hey if I help this guy not only am I helping the magic community but, I bet next time they guy or girl needs some magic they'll be coming to you to buy!

How is this a brotherhood? How is this a community.....these are the question put out to all of you.

My hope is that this thread turn into a meaningful thread with great views and communication.

Thank you.
Message: Posted by: MickNZ (Apr 11, 2012 12:33AM)
Maybe you're just looking in the wrong places.
Message: Posted by: MichalMystic (Apr 11, 2012 12:39PM)
Im not looking at the wrong places, this the state of the magic scene right now..and even if you don't 100% agree with me you have to see how the magic scene and they way magic is taught has gone the wrong way.

Heck if you don't agree right on! Let me know why! This why I posted.

[quote]
On 2012-04-11 01:33, MickNZ wrote:
Maybe you're just looking in the wrong places.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Apr 11, 2012 01:14PM)
Here's the real question...

Was Magic EVER a community?

Or you saw it that way because you'd like it to be?

No real applicable laws imposed or the authority/ability to impose them...

Just look at what Valentino did to us...

And the "community" did WHAT as a whole? :worry:

I hope it becomes one but I think it is still a long way before it can be called that...

"A gathering of like minds, each with their own goals and agendas" is more I like it...

A trade for some, a hobby for most, makes it more complicated to create a real respected hierarchy.

But that's just how I see it. ;)
Message: Posted by: MichalMystic (Apr 11, 2012 01:20PM)
First awesome a well thought out post! Thanks man! To me it just amazing how the attitude of magicians and magic teachers. and the whole magic scene has really changed. Yes of course this only my view. I even remember when Ellusionist came out everyone bashing them..but even still people were that way cause of the respect they had for magic..not just to be a troll. They wanted proper credits..they wanted the respect that magic deserved. Now this isn't a Ellusionist bashing by any means..they made mistake corrected them and now are one of the biggest magic companies out there.

I just believe that right now magic isn't being shown as respectful or being taught to respect magic and others... that my biggest concern not respecting others and the art.

[quote]
On 2012-04-11 14:14, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Here's the real question...

Was Magic ever a community?

Or you saw it that way because you'd like it to be?

No real applicable laws, look at what Valentino did to us?

And the "community" did what as a whole? :worry:

I hope it becomes one but I think it is still a long way before it can be called that...

"A gathering of like minds, each with their own goals and agendas." is more I like it...

A trade for some, a hobby for most makes it more complicated.

But that's just how I see it. ;)
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Apr 11, 2012 01:41PM)
Yer' welcome... :ohyes:

Yes, RESPECT.

People don't respect Magicians... :no:
Message: Posted by: MichalMystic (Apr 11, 2012 02:15PM)
It not lay people Im worried about respecting magicians. Its other magicians respecting each other..or even the hobbiest respecting the art itself and those that have laid the foundation for this great art we call magic!

[quote]
On 2012-04-11 14:41, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Yer' welcome... :ohyes:

Yes, RESPECT.

People don't respect Magicians... :no:
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Apr 11, 2012 03:32PM)
Nothing has really changed. They're have been great clubs, bad clubs. Great shops, bad shops. Creative forces, thieves that steal creations.

Reed McClintock joined a local magic club before anyone knew who he was and was treated as a pariah because of his unconventional look.
Message: Posted by: MichalMystic (Apr 11, 2012 05:00PM)
I'm not sure how long you been involved in magic but when I started there was this feeling of belonging to a brotherhood a special club. Yes there good and bad clubs this isn't the point Im making. The state of how magic is being taught and the way it being perceived does no good for the magic community. I see less and less help and more and more people acting like little spoiled kids cause they did magic for a bit or even for years and think they know everything and have the right to be rude. Instead why not help..why not strive to make the magic community stronger......
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 12, 2012 05:40PM)
Hi Michael!

I understand what you're saying. I worked as a radio DJ for almost 40 years. DJ's can be VICIOUS to each other, even though they are kind to the public!

DJ's and Magicians are very similar in that egos CAN be involved to a greater degree. Musicians will tell you the same thing. Some of the worst behavior can be found in female modeling competitions. It's pretty much "rivalry", plain and simple.

We try not to be like that, though. We put on the airs of "magicians helping magicians" and for the most part it works. A few get by, though, and that's what you're seeing. With over 50,000 members, posting more than 4,165,825 posts, one can see why. Heck there are more than 100 here right now (While I'm here)!

No, it's not really a "magic" problem. It's a HUMAN problem, and it rears its head in many situations.

And yeah, Valentino. There ya go. That's a good example of one bad egg...and ya know? He THINKS he did the right thing! Hope it was worth it.

When I started in magic back in the 70's, true, there [b][i]was[/b][/i] this feeling of belonging to a brotherhood a special club. I still feel that way. The Café has been the best "club" I've ever belonged to. There are worse places for magicians to gather, believe me! :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: MichalMystic (Apr 12, 2012 06:37PM)
Great post Doug....but I still don't think my point getting across...yes there good and bad people..but the way we've taken magic and it being taught is harmful to the art. I also hate how Valantino been used twice now as a example...one let's get over it...two did any of you watch his shows.......the methods he supposed gave away 80% weren't even the real method magicians use....so to me the Valantino example is a wash.

I'm not talking about bad apples I'm talking about how in the last 10/15 years the leaders of magic have gone from teaching magic as art to more worried about the cloths and how they look...

Teaching and continue to teaching this way...and all is done is raise a generation of egos and whinners.
I understand you point about all the threads and so forth but that was over all the years....now I barely can find a helpful or good thread. I'm also not talking about just here I'm talking about the so called community of magic.

When I was learning magic I would have never and I mean never thought of exposing magic...that cause I was taught to respect the art...... today you find very little respect for the art and for others. To be honest is this there fault? Or is the fault of how magic has been taught and shown to them?


Awesome Dough thanks for the post!
Message: Posted by: Jim Sparx (Apr 14, 2012 07:37PM)
This is what I do while perusing the Magic Café, if I see people calling others names like stupid, idiot, dumb, etc, I report the post as flaming. There is only a cupola spots that I've visited where people are doing that. I don't know if reporting the post does any good because I've gone back and the offending posts are still there. But if more than one person reports the posts, maybe the mods will get the message. Am I a tattletale? You bet your sweet bippy. I want kids and ladies to be interested in magic, and if they are seeing people arguing, well, who wants to be a part of that?
The wife called me to dinner, I'll be back in awhile to write more...
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Apr 14, 2012 08:03PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-10 17:18, MichalMystic wrote:
How is that the magician have gone from being a close brotherhood to nothing but a bunch of ego maniacs and whiners?...
[/quote]

? When do you imagine the community was otherwise?
Message: Posted by: Jim Sparx (Apr 14, 2012 08:13PM)
I'm back....If I was a newcomer and I wanted to ask a question in that forum I might be afraid someone would call me stupid for asking a question.
Post your original first in the I Want to see the Manager thread. Tell them you don't like what you are seeing, that people are not following the rules as far as being civil to one another. You could even ask the managers if they need flaming moderators and you might be interested in doing that. Maybe other people would like to be a flaming mod. The guys in charge have a lot of area to cover and they can't be everywhere. so maybe they could use some help.
As far as community spirit in local clubs and getting along with one another, I don't have a clue what you could do about that.
Message: Posted by: randirain (Apr 14, 2012 11:24PM)
[quote]How is that the magician have gone from being a close brotherhood to nothing but a bunch of ego maniacs and whiners?[/quote]

The internet has changed the way the entire world works.
Many things have gone the way of the dodo because of the internet.
Some things have been created because of the internet.

You are pretty correct in your thinking, but you also have to realize that they have always been there.
Just with the internet it makes it easier to notice.

Example...
People always talk about how violent the world is and how crime has gotten so bad.
Not true. Matter of fact, crime is down.
It's just that with the age of information it's a lot more noticeable.
In the "olden days" when a person goes on a killing rampage, the news barely leaves the surrounding areas.
Now, something happens on the other side of the planet and you hear about it within seconds.

Same thing with magic.
There has always been ego maniacs and whiners in magic.
Just now you are able to see them easier.

It's just evolution, and I must point out that you are "whining" about it. ;)
But seriously, you can always look at things the way you are looking at it.

It's like that old man saying, "I just don't understand today's music. When I was a kid...." blah blah blah etc etc etc.

The point is, it's not going to change, no since worrying about it.

The best thing to do is to find some good in it, and there is good in.
Like what?
How about that magic has never been so popular.
We have TV shows and movies, and magicians have work!!

So yeah, your brotherhood is over, but a whole new an exciting world has opened up.
Evolve with it, and it won't be so bad.

Randi
Message: Posted by: Christopher Rinaldi (Apr 15, 2012 12:32AM)
Man...you young people need to grow up.
Things have changed true, is it always the best thing? I see change most usually for the worst in this day and age, especially in people and in general they are all getting ****ywissy and could not survive on their own without modern technology. Crime is down? Hahahahahaha, yeah right. I live in a small town and if the rest of the world is the same or worse than....hmmmm.
And Randi, maybe it's time for the younger generation of America to start respecting the elders that came before them. We have been there, we have done that, yo, yo and all that young people crap my homie and stuff!
;)
I concur with the original post, someday when you young people hit your older years will you see the light and wish, which I'm sure you all already do that it was like the old days before all this stupid computer crap.
And yes, I hate the fact that computers runt he world and people are sooooo dependent on it for their knowledge and information, just google everything for your argument now...
Now where is my walker and medication dangit!?
Message: Posted by: randirain (Apr 15, 2012 01:13AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-15 01:32, Christopher Rinaldi wrote:
Man...you young people need to grow up.
Things have changed true, is it always the best thing? I see change most usually for the worst in this day and age, especially in people and in general they are all getting ****ywissy and could not survive on their own without modern technology. Crime is down? Hahahahahaha, yeah right. I live in a small town and if the rest of the world is the same or worse than....hmmmm.
And Randi, maybe it's time for the younger generation of America to start respecting the elders that came before them. We have been there, we have done that, yo, yo and all that young people crap my homie and stuff!
;)
I concur with the original post, someday when you young people hit your older years will you see the light and wish, which I'm sure you all already do that it was like the old days before all this stupid computer crap.
And yes, I hate the fact that computers runt he world and people are sooooo dependent on it for their knowledge and information, just google everything for your argument now...
Now where is my walker and medication dangit!?
[/quote]

Hahaha!!!
You believe what ever you want old man.

I'm sorry that the world isn't just the great place that you grew up in? :rollseyes:

But what ever you do...
Don't you dare look on the bright side.
Be negative, shake your cane at the kids, yell at them to get off your yard, and keep calling them whiners all while you are whining about the whiners.

Oh, and by the way...
I am 40 years old.
And yes... crime is down.
Message: Posted by: Stucky (Apr 15, 2012 01:38AM)
[quote]I'm not talking about bad apples I'm talking about how in the last 10/15 years the leaders of magic have gone from teaching magic as art to more worried about the cloths and how they look...
[/quote]

Technically The whole world is like that now. Magicians are just humans in bad suits.

here is something interesting, I know someone who conducted an experiment with this forum. Sent some laymen here and told them to explore it and see what they thought. One report was that it looked like a lot of helpful advice and people trying to answer questions.

We see all of it because we are in it. Step away from it all a bit. Collectively in a large group people are going to suck. You want community? Find a small passel of performers you share the same ideas with and go from there. There are far too many varying opinions for everyone to get along.

Relax, take a deep breath, eat a cookie.... oh and GTF off the internet for a while.
Message: Posted by: NurseRob (Apr 15, 2012 08:37AM)
When I first came to the Café, I was helped by many good hearted people, I found a magic mentor who became a best friend and continues to teach me after 4 years of continued support. Justin Styles even sent me a case ( his own idea ) of D'lites to give to kids in the hospital out of the goodness of his heart, and we have never met. Ambitious Card owner, has had several talks with me about Ninja rings, and not because I was buying anything from him. I met many local magician friends as a result. I have found community.

I could go on and on...All I am saying, is because of this internet connection, I have fully fallen back in love with magic!!

THank you all who made this happen...thank you thank you thank you! Rob
Message: Posted by: Jim Sparx (Apr 15, 2012 10:24AM)
I don't see where the OP gave his age. In fact he has been a member of the Café for 10 years. And I don't understand why we have to berate someone because they are young and they ask a question. I have seen this in other areas of the Café where teenagers ask a question and they are told to "grow up." Isn't part of growing up receiving advice and counsel from elders? Getting old does not mean you have to be grumpy and a a-hole. But, if that's your thing, stay with it. You get back what you put out.
Message: Posted by: randirain (Apr 15, 2012 01:56PM)
It's all perspective.

Adults never like what the kids are doing.

Adults say, "I can't believe what kids are calling music today. It's horrible."
That's the exact same thing they said about Elvis.

And I must point out...

That you can't complain about the young kids today, tell them how wrong they are, call them names...
Like what ever the hell that is supposed to be "****ywissy"...
And then expect them to respect you because you are their elder.

Respect is earned, not mandated.

You would think after a hundred years you would learn that.
Message: Posted by: cmwalden (Apr 16, 2012 01:28AM)
I read a book once which depicts a group discussing the qualities of a gentleman. In the forward of this book the author explains why he felt it was so important to capture this conversation. He talks about the youth and how they have no respect for tradition. Their dress is sloppy; they have no respect for the language; their music and dance is vulgar; they don't take things seriously and it will be a sad state of affairs when these people come into power.

The book is called "The Courtier", by Baldesar Castiglioni and it was published in 1528.

I've been involved in magic clubs since 1986, a babe compared to some. I did not get a mentor and no one helped put me on the path through the "community". The working professionals did not welcome a potential newcomer to their ranks and it was always polite (mostly) tolerance. Now that my artistic vision has broadened I feel I receive even less support, especially from the "old timers" because they have forgotten the powerful moments in our magical history and have largely joined the ranks of people who believe that entertainment is all about laughter and applause, leaving all of the remaining theatrical notes to other art forms.

The Internet has opened a remarkable doorway for our art. No longer are we forced to be lumped in with the clowns and the card jugglers if we don't fit there. No longer are things bound only by the principals laid out at the turn of the 20th century. We are able to find like minds, wherever they may be and have casual conversations about what we're doing, even face-to-face with video technology. That's remarkable! I find myself less interested in supporting some of the local activities because I'm no longer captive there.

I'm sorry that you are not finding what you want in the communities that you visit, but I respectfully suggest that you're just not looking in the right place. The same technology that troubles you can also connect you with people who share your most passionate interests and deeply held beliefs no matter where they are. If there's not a ready-made community you can start one with no cost but your time and effort. It might not be this green board here, but is that really important?
Message: Posted by: MichalMystic (Apr 17, 2012 01:49PM)
Wow some really awesome post here guys!

I don't consider my post whining as much as wanted to get people opinions.

There been some really great post and some really good suggestion. As current I am trying to find some like minded people to jam with and share ideas here locally.

Now Ive seen it twice here said well you looking in the wrong place.... where else am I suppose to look but at the magic community... I'm not sure where else to look? Lol

Now I myself am 37 and think weather your young or so called old your opinions are still valid and should be listen. too. Now you don't have to agree to them but listen..take it in......

I also like how so many say oh that the way it is it never go to change...well of course not if don't try and make a change....heck if everyone had that attitude nazi's would be running the world.....when is it time for us to take responsibility?

Just cause thing are the way they are doesn't make it right or doesn't mean a change can't be made...would it be easy...heck no change is very rarely easy.....but in the end is normally always worth it.

Really in the end all I'm saying in 25 years Ive been at magic and 15 or so involved with internet magic and marketing...I'd really like to see a lot more respect for each other and the art....I guess in the end that's really it.
Message: Posted by: G. Batson (Apr 19, 2012 07:42AM)
Its easy to find things that are wrong in magic or anywhere else. Sounds like you come here to get opinions. Maybe to agree with you? that's the thing about whining. OK to say whats wrong, but why not bring a solution to the discussion. What do YOU intend to do to make the situation better?
Message: Posted by: MichalMystic (Apr 20, 2012 01:13AM)
Actually I'm just expressing my opinion on what others have commented on. You must have not read my post right above yours when I mentioned that you should listen to everyone opinion even if you don't agree with it. I'm not here to get everyone to agree with me..just the opposite and I'm sure if you re read my posts you'll see this.

Your post almost proves my point instead of talking about what the threads about you take it to a personal level and attack me.

Now not that I actually wanted to talk about the project right now..but I do have something in the works to try and make a change..... so I'm not just here flapping my lips....


Now on another note...I just moved to a new city and attended my first local IBM meeting and seem like a great by bunch of people that love and respect magic. So that was very inspiring and looking forward to hosting some jams! Also won a ticket to David Acer lecture! So that was pretty wicked too!
Message: Posted by: G. Batson (Apr 20, 2012 12:57PM)
No attack. Nothing personal. You started the thread saying magic has gone bad and gave many examples to prove it. Your opinion. You continue to say it is bad in following posts. Your opinion again and I respect that. Now please suggest how to change it.
Message: Posted by: solrak29 (Apr 23, 2012 10:57AM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-10 17:18, MichalMystic wrote:
Heck it even come to the point if you go into a magic shop for some help and god forbid you didn't buy off them...you get no help. I understand for them magic a business, but why did you open the shop in the first place? To help other to help the magic community. Next time think hey if I help this guy not only am I helping the magic community but, I bet next time they guy or girl needs some magic they'll be coming to you to buy!

[/quote]

Not that I own a magic shop; but if I did, I would make it point to talk to and say hello
to anyone who enteres my store. I would also be familiar with almost everything that I
am selling so that I could demonstrate and give the folks a feel of what to expect from
a product. I would also feature that something that I think is great. I would simply say,
"check this out" ; do the routine and let them know its in here. My goal is to build
a relationship and if they don't buy anything at that time; I would have faith that they
will be back to buy something. It basic salesmanship, I think. I am just curious why
shops don't do this at the most basic level?

Great post Mr. Mystic...
Message: Posted by: MichalMystic (Apr 23, 2012 06:48PM)
[quote]
On 2012-04-20 13:57, G. Batson wrote:
No attack. Nothing personal. You started the thread saying magic has gone bad and gave many examples to prove it. Your opinion. You continue to say it is bad in following posts. Your opinion again and I respect that. Now please suggest how to change it.
[/quote]
Once again do you read the comment right above your post.. I just mentioned that I had a very good experience at my first local meeting...nothing bad about that!

Now change..the way I try and make a change currently is the way I teach students and try and get them away from the MTV wrap up blanket and learn a good solid basis in magic. I find this give them more respect for the art and having to work at it by reading books or DVD like Metal gives them a respect for the art that I grew up with.