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Topic: John Bannon - Spin Doctor
Message: Posted by: helder (May 16, 2012 07:33PM)
Hi buddies, what's your opinion about this routine? The discrepances, the 5th card? Do you use it?
I'm thinking in using it with a message on the back (a word for each card), or a company logo instead of different color backs. I will do it in a tv show, maybe. Some magicians said that the 5th card it's not good, how about put in in the pocket (ace of spades) and make it appear on the packet?
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (May 16, 2012 08:38PM)
I use this all the time with fantastic results. It sounds to me like you suffer greatly from "Magician's Guilt". :devilish:
Message: Posted by: helder (May 16, 2012 08:53PM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-16 21:38, dpe666 wrote:
I use this all the time with fantastic results. It sounds to me like you suffer greatly from "Magician's Guilt". :devilish:
[/quote]
I don't suffer ''magicians guilt'' instead I like think in what I'm doing and do my best, wich is a diferent thing. But thanks anyway for your advices. Much appreciated
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (May 16, 2012 09:52PM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-16 20:33, helder wrote:
The discrepances, the 5th card? Some magicians said that the 5th card it's not good, how about put in in the pocket (ace of spades) and make it appear on the packet?
[/quote]
All of those issues are examples of magician's guilt. You (and others) think too much like magicians and not like lay people. No lay person (who has been entertained) is going to question those things. I do this effect at nearly every table, almost every night. I have been doing this for the last year. Not once has anyone questioned the 5th card or noticed any discrepancies. Do not worry about stuff like that, and just worry about being entertaining. :devilish:
Message: Posted by: helder (May 17, 2012 05:54AM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-16 22:52, dpe666 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-05-16 20:33, helder wrote:
The discrepances, the 5th card? Some magicians said that the 5th card it's not good, how about put in in the pocket (ace of spades) and make it appear on the packet?
[/quote]
All of those issues are examples of magician's guilt. You (and others) think too much like magicians and not like lay people. No lay person (who has been entertained) is going to question those things. I do this effect at nearly every table, almost every night. I have been doing this for the last year. Not once has anyone questioned the 5th card or noticed any discrepancies. Do not worry about stuff like that, and just worry about being entertaining. :devilish:
[/quote]
So, for you the most important thing it's entertainment? Where's the importance of the effect? It doesn't matter, it matter but the entertainment it's more important or you don't care?

Alright, again thanks for your advices. Very helpfull.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 17, 2012 02:53PM)
I mostly agree with dp on this, I think he's more right than wrong. Spec's typically do not pickup such discrepancies, heck a lot of times they might not pick up outright mistakes. :D That's all because you are leading them and they don't know where you're going most times. That's a real advantage for you. But I do understand your feelings as to doing something well or the best you can. Magicians typically know every move and sometimes can't believe that something might be done well enough to fool a spec because it looks so blatant, perhaps sloppy to the magi. I have learned that specs miss a lot as to moves, most cannot tell in the spur of a moment a good classic palm from a bad one, mostly because they don't suspect your classic palming (as to coins). I would work on whatever move you're feeling a bit less-than with until you feel better about it, usually time or exacter knowledge as to what you're doing helps to smooth it all out. As to dp, I know what you mean too and for the most part, you're right...It's really about the entertainment and if the specs feel amazed dispite any such mishandling, then you've still suceeded. But that don't mean if you're skating on thin ice with a move just getting by maybe, that you don't try to improve it, which I know you already do. :) It's not that you don't care about technique but what the spec thinks about the effect is more important than anything else IMHO, that is if the goal is to amaze people. :) It's good to be happy with yourself as well, breeds confidence. :)
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (May 18, 2012 07:13AM)
"So, for you the most important thing it's entertainment? Where's the importance of the effect?"

I agree, and for me discrepant effects are troubling and I avoid them. Of course, entertainment is vital and necessary, but my venue is magic, and I want my audience to NEVER be able to suss out the method. Long after the entertainment has ebbed, some specs will have a niggling suspicion or a remembrance, and therefore a final opinion. I want that opinion to be "it was a great show, and that guy is a MAGICIAN"

Jim!
Message: Posted by: pabloinus (May 18, 2012 08:40AM)
Spin Doctor is a great trick, I am a hobbist so I am more a spectator than magician,and the discrepancy was invisible, until I got the DVD and start playing with the trick.
I am sure that any other spectator will have the same experience, great trick, and nothing to be found.

At least this is my experience

Pablo
Message: Posted by: mickym (May 18, 2012 08:43AM)
I also agree with all these claims. I think that the most important thing is that the audience is left with a strong impression of having had a good time, having seen unbelievable things, and even sometimes they will not remember what exactly was the effect. They may even not remember at all what was the effect and only that it was extraordinary. This is what is important.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (May 18, 2012 09:11AM)
I am using the Spin Doctor set for B'rainiac, from Triabolical. I did not think much of the trick when I saw the demo but I decided to give it some play. Great responses, 5! climaxes in one effect. Their chosen Ace face up, all others blank, their chosen ace has a different color, other aces return, all have different backs. Done in the hands. One of my go to effects now.Am posting in packet tricks as well
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (May 18, 2012 04:09PM)
This is a bizarre thread. There is no discrepancy in Spin Doctors. The appearance of the 5th card is part of the effect. But yes, you could certainly just pocket that card (and have it "return" to the packet) if that feels more logical to you.
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (May 18, 2012 08:19PM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-18 17:09, Magicsquared wrote:
This is a bizarre thread. There is no discrepancy in Spin Doctors.
[/quote]
Yes there is.

Now, getting back to my point. I would rather see a competent magician performing passable sleight of hand yet is entertaining the hell out of the audience than to see a slick sleight of hand artist performing perfect sleight of hand yet is boring the hell out of the audience. Is it possible to perform the sleights perfectly and be entertaining? Of course it is, and one should strive for that (Chad Long springs to mind). However, it is more important to an audience that they are entertained. That is what they are paying you for. If not with money, then they are paying you with their time, which to some people is more valuable. :devilish:
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (May 19, 2012 09:02AM)
Well said, dpe...
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (May 19, 2012 11:38AM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-18 21:19, dpe666 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-05-18 17:09, Magicsquared wrote:
This is a bizarre thread. There is no discrepancy in Spin Doctors.
[/quote]
Yes there is.
[/quote]
You're mistaken or you're misunderstanding the effect.

And, to your bigger point, I have no doubt that if the [i]performer[/i] can't grasp the premise of the effect then it's going to be hard to be entertaining with it.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 19, 2012 12:10PM)
Oh, and as to Spin Doctor, I think it's pretty good. I like Bannon's tricks and used to do Duplicity all the time. I also like the way he packages what he does and his overall string of logic as to presentation. I'm no longer big on such involved card tricks, not big on all the twisting, turning and even spinning nowadays. I guess I like the simpler stuff really, but this is coming from a coin guy. :D I rarely have the time to spend on these longer more studious card effects and leave my cardistry these days to things like NFW, B'Wave, Doc Daley Last Trick, ReFlipped, ACAAN, ACR, etc. I like the more instant amazement aspects in these sorts of tricks and I think it's very hard for any such packet card effect to be any better than NFW all things considered, :D but that's just me.

Still, Bannon's work is a treatise on good card magic and he's had some really clever ones to be sure. Great worker and thinker and you can't go wrong with this Good Doctor's "Spin" on things. ;)
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (May 19, 2012 12:20PM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-19 12:38, Magicsquared wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-05-18 21:19, dpe666 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-05-18 17:09, Magicsquared wrote:
This is a bizarre thread. There is no discrepancy in Spin Doctors.
[/quote]
Yes there is.
[/quote]
You're mistaken or you're misunderstanding the effect.
[/quote]
No, I am not. There is a huge discrepancy at the begining. If I remember right Bannon even talks about it on the DVD. :devilish:
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (May 19, 2012 12:34PM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-19 13:20, dpe666 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-05-19 12:38, Magicsquared wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-05-18 21:19, dpe666 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-05-18 17:09, Magicsquared wrote:
This is a bizarre thread. There is no discrepancy in Spin Doctors.
[/quote]
Yes there is.
[/quote]
You're mistaken or you're misunderstanding the effect.
[/quote]
No, I am not. There is a huge discrepancy at the begining. If I remember right Bannon even talks about it on the DVD. :devilish:
[/quote]
Ah! okay, I was misunderstanding the original post. I thought he was complaining about the 5th card being discrepant. (Now I'm not really sure what his issue is with the 5th card.)

yes, there's a discrepancy after the first display. dpe is right that no one notices. Especially if you take a beat right before that discrepancy. And even if something seems "off" for them, the counts that follow should reinforce what the situation is.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (May 19, 2012 02:57PM)
That is one of the reason I like Duplicity, it is so clean...
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 19, 2012 03:05PM)
You're right, you won't even notice it, flies right by them. Lots of things in magic work like that, it's sorta like a jumpcut in a great movie, maybe you notice something or other but it goes by so fast within the greater context of the effect, that basically no blood, no foul. Much ado about nothing much at all. :) To argue even a little bit of such a small thing is like not cashing a big check because it might be a buck short, or something like that. :) After all the spinning in this trick you won't remember any such hiccup. ;)
Message: Posted by: joseph (May 20, 2012 05:22AM)
.. and it's John Bannon ..I'm sure he's (and I) performed this
hundreds of times, and the entertainment value outweighs
the discrepancies ...
Message: Posted by: Darius666 (May 20, 2012 06:17AM)
I have been performing this regualary since it's release and the discreceny at the beginning has never been noticed. It's such a little thing that spectators just don't pick up on. Magicians thinking the appearance of the 5th card is bad/reveals the method or whatever is typical magicians thinking like magicians. I can honestly say that I find this phase of the routine to actually be the strongest when I perform it.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (May 20, 2012 04:40PM)
How can you KNOW it has not been noticed? Specs (some) are (still) polite, and are not going to call you out on it. Just because your audience has some social grace is not reason to be unconcerned about what they really think...
Message: Posted by: Darius666 (May 20, 2012 09:21PM)
That is true, but some spectators will call out any little thing they find suspicious, even if its nothing. If the discrepancy really bothers anyone its simple to use a little misdircetion. It is incredibly minor and shold not put anyone of trying it out.
Message: Posted by: martyjacobs (May 21, 2012 05:25AM)
[quote]How can you KNOW it has not been noticed? Specs (some) are (still) polite, and are not going to call you out on it. Just because your audience has some social grace is not reason to be unconcerned about what they really think...[/quote]
This is a good point. Some people are too polite to mention they've noticed something. However, the discrepency at the start of Spin Doctor is minor, and can easily be covered by a little time misdirection as John explains on the DVD.

Sometimes it is better to hide a discrepency rather than add another move/sequence to a trick, especially when the move/sequence itself might create more unwanted attention.

Marty
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 21, 2012 06:49AM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-20 17:40, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
How can you KNOW it has not been noticed? Specs (some) are (still) polite, and are not going to call you out on it. Just because your audience has some social grace is not reason to be unconcerned about what they really think...
[/quote]

I don't think you really need to know beyond the overwhelming response. :) What does it matter really that your suit is a bit snug if everyone is telling you how great and trim you look in it? I'm just saying' :)

Do you wonder at all, when everyone seems amazed, whether or not someone/anyone caught you at some point in an effect, saw a flash, etc.? Probably not, you just accept the response as you being successful. I think knowing that there is a discrepancy to be hurdled shouldn't make one feel that he has opened the door to be less-than successful. Misdirection covers discrepancies as makeup covers blemishes if applied appropriately. Especially in most cases as to this that specs do not catch this little thing and if they happen to notice it, they do not understand it within the context of the effect. Any such concern about this is like worrying about if a doctor gave you one too many or one too few stitches on an old cut long since healed. :)
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (May 21, 2012 03:23PM)
To repeat...

"my venue is magic, and I want my audience to NEVER be able to suss out the method"

just the weird way I think, maybe. If it is discovered that someone stole money a year ago, that fact will color the opinion of a lot of people who find out, and it will color it for a very long time. I think the same is true of a magic effect- even if it is three days later, the magic and the magician are lessened in the mind of the spec who finally figures it out. I have a lot of Bannon stuff and he is brilliant. I tend to use the ones that are harder to uncover- for example I have Twisted Sister, but I use Duplicity. Different strokes...

And now I quietly apologize for disrupting the thread, and slowly slide into the shadows...

Jim
Message: Posted by: Liam Montier (May 22, 2012 04:05AM)
Spin Doctor is a killer packet trick. Sorry to disagree with Mr Mystoffelees, but people genuinely have no idea about the discrepancy. It is a subtlety (or discrepancy) that is given the same misdirection that would normally cover a move. Only you are misdirecting from no move. Trust those of us who have performed it everywhere, it really isn't noticed. I promise :)

Liam.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 22, 2012 06:31AM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-21 16:23, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:

...just the weird way I think, maybe...

And now I quietly apologize for disrupting the thread, and slowly slide into the shadows...

Jim
[/quote]
You might've diagnosed your own ailment here, Jim. :D

And you didn't disrupt anything, you're thoughts are appreciated. Just tried to offer a little alternative road to the way, as you say, you might be thinking or perhaps over-thinking this thing. Anyway, it's all good, now come on back out of those shadows, that's where all the wrong thinking usually comes from. :) And without offering another analogy for you to respond to here, I will more simply agree with the way Liam succinctly put it. :)

-Mb
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (May 22, 2012 06:50AM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-21 16:23, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:

just the weird way I think, maybe. If it is discovered that someone stole money a year ago, that fact will color the opinion of a lot of people who find out, and it will color it for a very long time. I think the same is true of a magic effect- even if it is three days later, the magic and the magician are lessened in the mind of the spec who finally figures it out.
[/quote]
One of the biggest constants in performing any close-up magic is that spectators can't remember exactly what happened three minutes after you finish, let alone three days. To think that they are going to reverse engineer your effect based off of a visual discrepancy days later simply doesn't resonate with my experience.

These types of visual discrepancies are designed to fool the mind and not the eye. Their minds will remember what they thought they saw. For example, I love the Tenkai Optical Revolve, which is itself a discrepant move. Of all the crazy explanations people have come up with to explain an effect that uses the move, NO ONE has even remotely suggested an explanation that comes close.

Finally, if you think the magician is lessened in the mind of the spectator that "figures it out" then you're probably a very frustrated magician. What I mean by that is that many spectators will apply false reasoning, false logic and false memories in a jumbled mass in order to figure out a trick. Once a person is satisfied they "figured it out", no matter how far off course, then in your view the magic is lessened. There is no way to stop the spectator from reaching erroneous conclusions (sometimes false avenues of explanation are built directly into an effect) on their own after the fact. To base the success or failure of a magician on this premise is a losing proposition.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (May 22, 2012 08:37AM)
Not frustrated at all- just a happy working magician, partly because I avoid discrepant magic... and ad hominems... :)

Jim
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (May 22, 2012 02:21PM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-22 09:37, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
Not frustrated at all- just a happy working magician, partly because I avoid discrepant magic... and ad hominems... :)

Jim
[/quote]
Really? That's such a bizarre limitation to put on your magic. You don't do anything with a face-up Elmsley? Or a flushtration count? Or a slop-shuffle? Or a cross-cut force?

Yes, discrepancies are noticeable if someone knows what to look for. But so is a top change. The whole idea is that you structure your presentation so the audience is not concentrating on that which is discrepant.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (May 22, 2012 08:15PM)
Thanks for the tip...
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (May 23, 2012 12:36AM)
I love discrepancies. They make me giddy inside. And most of the best effects have them.

Here's a trick of mine which has some discrepancies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m4oasNdQSY

Now, being magicians, you may have noticed that I show five cards... Then do two Elmsleys. But guess what? Never been called on it by a lay person and I highly doubt I ever will be. Why? Because the focus is on what is on what is happening TO the cards. Not how many cards there are in the packet.

In the Bannon effect, the discrepancy happens before you "do" anything. Before their guard is up. It flies because you haven't gotten to the trick yet. I've done Spin Doctor many times. Never been called on the initial discrepancy.

Posted: May 23, 2012 1:43am
And, btw, even if no one says anything, you can tell when a spec sees something. There is usually a small physical reaction: a head jerk, a narrowing of the eyes... Not always, but I sometimes know when I've been busted even if they don't say a word.
Message: Posted by: digiassn (May 31, 2012 02:11PM)
I have been performing this effect for years now. It was one of the first effects I ever learned, and it lead me down the path of learning about several different Twisting the Aces effects. And after comparing and contrasting several different ones, this is my preferred routine. The multiple kickers just completely blow the minds of spectators.

With that said, the "holes" in the routine are addressed in the DVD. I have only ever once been caught with them, and that is because I didn't follow the advice in the instructions. The discrepancies give me an opportunity to interact and be more personable with your audience which goes a long way into making me a better entertainer.
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (May 31, 2012 02:37PM)
Dai Vernon said something to the affect that all great tricks have at least one discrepancy. :devilish:
Message: Posted by: Paul (May 31, 2012 05:09PM)
[quote]
On 2012-05-31 15:37, dpe666 wrote:
Dai Vernon said something to the affect that all great tricks have at least one discrepancy. :devilish:
[/quote]

I think he was referring to a typo in the instructions...
Message: Posted by: loyaleagle (May 31, 2012 07:02PM)
Getting "caught" in this instance wouldn't so much be the trick's fault as the performer's failure to manage the audience properly. I say this because (with much of Bannon's magic) there IS a discrepancy, but he expects the performer to use time misdirection.

Maybe don't start with this effect? Warm up a crowd with an effect that doesn't mind having lasers shown on it, then shift to Spin Doctor.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Jun 2, 2012 07:42AM)
Anybody got a link to Spin Doctor?
Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Jun 2, 2012 08:07AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hONxuoj5fw
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Jun 3, 2012 03:46PM)
Looks good!
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Jun 3, 2012 04:50PM)
I've used Spin Doctor since it came out ( got it from John's site ).

The discrepancy in the beginning is a non issue. Isn't it fun to sneak these things by them?

WHAT IF? They noticed it? JOY! Use it to your advantage. "You thought the cards were face up? How interesting. I wonder what else you may think you see".

Considering the ending, it would play right into it. Sadly, it won't happen. No one will notice.

Ditching the 5th card to the pocket? You could. But why cheat them out of the amazement of that ace turning blank in their hand?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jun 3, 2012 06:58PM)
[quote]
On 2012-06-03 16:46, daffydoug wrote:
Looks good!
[/quote]

You are talking about Liz, no?
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Jun 5, 2012 08:12PM)
Liz? Who me?
Message: Posted by: magicHart (Jun 12, 2012 09:56AM)
Go to johnbannonmagic.com

You can see demos of all the fractal series plus a ton of other things he's been up to.
Duplicity is wonderful, and I use Royal Scam all the time. Spin Doctor is my least favorite, but it gets great reactions as well.

And yes, I do agree, if you take Liz with you, you won't ever have to worry about anyone noticing a discrepancy.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Jul 25, 2012 11:33PM)
I prefer it with all 5 cards and either before or after strangers gallery. color change overload drives laymen crazy
Message: Posted by: joseph (Jul 26, 2012 05:45AM)
Perform NFW, place in himber wallet, and as afterthought,
take 'aces' out again & perform Spin Doctor...
Message: Posted by: magicHart (Aug 19, 2012 07:15PM)
Nice idea Joseph, thank you!
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Aug 24, 2012 10:15AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-26 06:45, joseph wrote:
Perform NFW, place in himber wallet, and as afterthought,
take 'aces' out again & perform Spin Doctor...
[/quote]

That's excellent thinking!
Message: Posted by: Atom3339 (Aug 24, 2012 12:24PM)
I would think there would always be a discrepancy in Magic. Otherwise it would be real.
Message: Posted by: cpatchett (Aug 24, 2012 12:53PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 13:24, Atom3339 wrote:
I would think there would always be a discrepancy in Magic. Otherwise it would be real.
[/quote]
The most insightful comment in this entire thread.
Message: Posted by: joseph (Aug 25, 2012 06:33AM)
Thanks Zombie & Atom..and the nice thing is the cards can
be examined at the end.. :) ...
Message: Posted by: ixnay66 (Sep 12, 2016 11:11AM)
This looks pretty good. I'm going to give it a go this evening.
Message: Posted by: Nikodemus (Oct 11, 2020 05:13PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2012, Atom3339 wrote:
I would think there would always be a discrepancy in Magic. Otherwise it would be real. [/quote]

Some discrepancies are more problematic than others.
For me, the fact that an extra card appears from nowhere is a discrepancy. The effect is that the AS will disappear from spectator's hand and travel to the other Aces. I admit that in a sense it does do that because the card in their hand becomes blank. But this is really just a clever play on words. Fundamentally, the routine started with apparently 4 cards, and ends with 5. Which is a big clue to the method.

I prefer the handling of Eye Exam. One card is removed, and placed in pocket - then miraculously reappears. Of course the method is the same. But the effect is now that a card travelled, rather than an extra card appeared. Ending with 4 cards seems less likely to tip the method than ending with 5.
Message: Posted by: Jack Skipton (May 18, 2021 05:29PM)
[quote]On May 21, 2012, Mb217 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-05-20 17:40, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
How can you KNOW it has not been noticed? Specs (some) are (still) polite, and are not going to call you out on it. Just because your audience has some social grace is not reason to be unconcerned about what they really think...
[/quote]

I don't think you really need to know beyond the overwhelming response. :) What does it matter really that your suit is a bit snug if everyone is telling you how great and trim you look in it? I'm just saying' :)

[/quote]

I want one of those suits!