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Topic: Help for a "logical" matrix routine
Message: Posted by: Marc01 (Oct 19, 2003 07:24AM)
I'm trying to build a matrix routine with a logical progression:
- with 4 cards (2 Shoot Ogawa's routines)
- 2 cards (Bob Kohler's Return to spender in Impossibilia),
- no cards with 2 hands ( translocation and shadow coins )
- no cards with one hand (à la Chad Long) .

Ideally the coins should magically appear in the beginning (under the cards?) and disappear at the end. Any ideas for this?

Thank you for your answer.

Message: Posted by: mystre71 (Oct 19, 2003 10:03AM)
What do you have so far?

Message: Posted by: Bong780 (Oct 19, 2003 12:08PM)
How about matrix with jumbo coin climax? But I think doing 4 matrices in a row would be overkill. In my opinion, matrix is a good transition between card and coin acts.
Message: Posted by: hnegash (Oct 19, 2003 02:18PM)
What's the name of the gaff card that lets you hold 4 half dollars?

Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 19, 2003 04:06PM)
What is your presentation for the routine?

I.e. what is the 'reason' for things as far as the audience is concerned?
Message: Posted by: Jgriff (Oct 19, 2003 04:42PM)
I don't particularly use this setup for Matrix, but Vani Bossi has a nice routine called "Pre Matrix" that sets up the coins under the cards at the beginning of a matrix routine.
The routine can be found on Stevens Magic Emporium's "Coin Classics Volume 1".
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Oct 19, 2003 09:16PM)
Marc contact Ray Nobel, he is a Café member and he has a cd avaliable of one of the best matrix routines and it is very original.
(It is based on no extras and a Dean Dill effect.)

Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 19, 2003 09:21PM)
Your 'logical' progression suggested something...

so here goes...

a routine set up as a magical strip-tease for coins

where four coins covered by four cards...
and then you get rid of a card...
then another..
then no cards...

if you start with chocolate coins... could finish by taking the foil off the chocolate...
and having the props eaten for the finale.

Message: Posted by: Full Effect (Oct 19, 2003 10:59PM)
Doing that many Matrix routines in a row is very much overkill.

After the first matrix your audience is going to know what’s going to happen before it happens. So the most logical would be the normal original MATRIX by Al Schneider then any Backfire. Giving the reason "we'll try that again maybe a little slower".

After the 3rd coin as arrived your audience are going to expect the last coin to join. Then you kick them in the head when they’re not looking with the backfire. You’re done.

Doing 5 matrix variations is too much. Everything will start to look the same to them and there’s no climax. … Very redundant or repetitive.

Keep it quick, keep it simple, make it strong.

That’s just my 2cents on matrixes.
Message: Posted by: Doug Conn (Oct 20, 2003 12:31AM)
What's the name of the gaff card that lets you hold 4 half dollars?[/quote]
Danny Archer sells it as the 'Coin Card.'
More info here: [url]http://www.dannyarcher.com/coincard.htm[/url]

Don England had a similar "coin card" concept in one of the early Apocalypse magazines (if you have 'the first five years' it's in there.)

Either way, it's a superb 'introduction' of four coins.

To JonTown's more important question:
[quote]What is your presentation for the routine? [/quote]
Perhaps something along these lines (after first Matrix) "That's a lot to watch; four cards, four coins, two hands... lets get rid of some of the stuff..." (then do 2 card matrix) "Maybe still to much." (then do no cards) "hands only"... this would also lead well to the vanish phase.

A 'challenging' presentation like this must be treated lighthearted lest you insult your audience. To avoid such conflicts, I suggest self-deprecating humor... Such as "yeah, I don't get out much"... "I have no social life" (etc.)

I would limit the routine. Too much eye candy can be hard on the brain... The magic number seems to be 3.
For example: "4 Card, 2 Card, Dill."

Of course, one's timing and pacing have a lot to do with that...

Anyway, enough rambling from here...
Good luck on your routine,
Doug Conn.
Message: Posted by: Marc01 (Oct 20, 2003 12:34AM)
I don't agree with the critics for a long matrix routine, if you try to avoid repetition in the effects and methods.
In my routine:
- The first effect (Ogawa's) is very quick: the 4 coins assemble at once as you explain the principle of the trick.
- The second effect is Ogawa's standart matrix with 4 cards.
- The third (Bob Kohler's “Return to Spender”) looks different: in the hands vanishes, and surprise backfire.
- Translocation (only for 2 coins) comes next. It is so clean that it reinforces the preceding effects.
- Next comes Shadow coins with several visual quick transpositions.

I admit that the one hand Chad Long's variation is perhaps superfluous. So I won't do it (actually I can't.)

So I'm looking for a magical production at the beginning and ending.

Thank you for your answers and help.

Message: Posted by: Daniel Faith (Oct 20, 2003 01:44AM)
I agree. Way overkill!
Remember the rule of 3.
Also, each set needs to be stronger than the one before it.
I do Al Schneider's Matrix and then do it again with a backfire and produce a large coin from under the 4 cards, after revealing the coins are back where they started.
You could do the backfire first and act as though it didn't work. Try again with a regular Matrix effect and succeed.
Also, check out Dean Dill's DVD's Extreme Dean. He has many types of Matrix effects including Explosion!
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Oct 20, 2003 12:09PM)
For an ending you might try my Vanishing Matrix! You say you are going to do it again, but all the coins vanish from under the cards! Just a thought!

Best David Neighbors
The Coinjurer
Message: Posted by: Alex Linian (Oct 21, 2003 07:06PM)
What about including reverse matrix?
Best wishes,
Alex :bikes:
Message: Posted by: wsduncan (Oct 22, 2003 12:41AM)
Wow. Two coin assemblies in one day is my personal idea of hell, but if you must do the trick then I recommend that you keep it short and sweet. Matrix-type assemblies are so fast than they beg for a repeat and that's why Paul Harris' Giant Killer Coin was developed and why "backfire" endings were created.

If you're going to do that many coin assemblies and related effects then you really need a good theme to hold their interest. Simply showing that you're amazing over and over again and expecting that they won't be bored, no matter how good your stuff is, is asking a lot of a lay audience.

If, on the other hand, you only perform this for magicians then go for it. Magicians seem to love to see cards and coins together.
Message: Posted by: Magicmaven (Jul 13, 2004 10:18PM)
I some times do something a long the lines of this. Preperation:coin in fingertip rest. a card on top of that coin, then another coin on that card and so on untill you have 4 coins and four coins. As you place each card on the table, place acoin under it. This will make it look like you have four cards on the table, and then some how, coins are under them. This is all the help I can give you now, I just don't have enough info. on what you are doing to help you. sorry, and good luck
Message: Posted by: ugdini13 (Jul 14, 2004 04:21AM)
I tend to agree with those in the overkill category. I think that even 2 matrix routines a row is still pushing it. While the methods may be different, to the audience I think they see it the same.

There is a reason that people don't do Ambitous card 5 times in a row...IT GETS BORING after the first 3 times.

I used to think otherwise and do a 4 card matrix, 2 card backfire,and a 1 card matrix, ending with Harris's Michaels Proposition, but I soon saw that the best reactions I got where the first matrix and the ending. Laymen were over it after the first 2 matrix effects. If you are doing it for magicians, hell throw in as many as you want but normal people wont appreciate as much as you think they should.

Anyways, I cut out the middle, and do a matrix, backfire and then Michaels Proposition...again the rule of 3. That's my opinion on the whole progressive matrix thing
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 14, 2004 06:30AM)
It helps to start with a premise, and see how a story unfolds.