(Close Window)
Topic: Magicians can't make magic shows anymore, because of the cups?
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 22, 2012 06:03PM)
Why is it that there are so many people doing the cups on the street, the same way?

Heck why is there so many people doin the cups?

The Godfather was a pretty good movie, but they made more movies…..

Is it me or are magicians so dense they can’t see how obvious this is?

My opinion is that IF you are a magician it shouldn’t be that hard to do a magic show without the cups and balls….no really.

And if you want to do them as a magician why is it so hard to create your own routine from scratch….no really.

Heck, I’ve seen magicians at magic clubs come up with 10 different cup shows in an evening.

I’ve done em on the street and gottin paid, and every time it was just some routine I threw together, and I didn’t do em as a finale……many times I just did them on the ground as a crowd builder….silent.

I’m not superman, any magician with basic rudimentary skills could create a routine…NO REALLY!

I would understand of course, if you were some money guy who would just assume sell tax annuities as do a magic show if the money was right, then yeah maybe you’re not a creative person, I get it. It’s not your thing! makin money is!

So you say to yourself, “ I’ll just rip this artist off and do his show and call myself a magician.”
But if you’re a magician, why must it be done as a finale? Why must it always be the same routine as the other “street magicians”, and why must it be done as an insult show? And why must I have to point this out to magicians?

Thousands of magicians not on the street, but indoors, do it a million different ways, but why can’t so many of the guys I see out there on the street do it differently?

You know, I have seen street magicians who can do it.

Some do it silent as an opener to music, some do it on the ground, some do it in a wild costume with small animals, etc.

So we know it can be done….I just can’t see why so many pathetic so called “magicians” can’t seem to create a magic show…..I mean really isn’t that what a magician does?

I was just in Germany and watched a slew of international magic acts only one of which did the cups…and it was silent and in a mime/clown costume and all the acts got huge tips and all were light years ahead of the American acts, go figure.

Funny thing the famous Gary Animal, didn’t even do cups there, didn’t even have any with him. And he won best comedy. No table, no amp….just talent. Worked out of his pockets, doin sidewalks and giant circle shows whatever he felt like.

As some of you know he is famous for his hand made cups he sells, but he told me himself he was sick of all the cup acts, he said he was tired of watching the audience call out the next load because they had seen three guys before do the same routine. Understand he is arguable the best craftsman making cups in the world.

But hey if you wanna clone a show anyway, regardless of my opinion, or you have some “vision” you don’t think I understand, or whatever…. more power to you!

I just ain’t got time for it, so please don’t write me or call me looking for my help, for “your act.”
The guys I’m helping have a heavier work load then you and they need me more, they actually have to create something.

Besides you’ll need something to copy later, right!

You know, when there are a thousand of other clones on your pitch and you ain’t makin money.

AND DON’T GET ME WRONG I AM NOT SAYING THAT IF YOU DO CUPS YOU’RE SUCK OR SOMETHING…no way!

What I am sayin is if you’re a beginner and YOU KNOW that 90% of the “street magicians” are doin the cups……why would you choose to do them, you wouldn’t do it in a gig when you knew someone else was gonna do it, you’d just use other tricks for YOUR magic show.

Don’t be so intimidated by the street to think there is only one way to do it; it’s just a magic show.
No really, you remember when we used to do magic.

Your pal jimmy.
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Aug 22, 2012 07:04PM)
Spot-on Jimmy!
Thank you.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 22, 2012 08:57PM)
Hmmm, very interesting point Jimmy, and I somewhat agree with you. So let me ask you this, why stop at just "cups?" Do we really need everybody doing the Color Changing Knives or the Chicago Opener? Look at the Linking Rings for crying out loud! Then there's The Professor's Nightmare, Crazy Man's Handcuffs...oh the list just goes on & on! I started doing some of Jim Cellini's stuff sometime back for several reasons.

1.) Nobody in my club had ever heard of him. (don't be too shocked, you'd be surprised to know how many people don't know who Lance Burton is.)

2.) Since they don't know who he was they don't have a clue as to what he did!

As for the cups & balls I don't copy most magicians, I copy Bill Malone on "Rub-a-Dub-Dub" almost word for word. At first I felt silly doing it, but after people like my mentor, and several other top-name magicians, like Tom Franks, encouraging me to continue, not to mention all of the "eyes popping, jaws dropping" when I perform it, I'll keep on doing it. Why? It's what helps me get the check sweetheart.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Aug 22, 2012 09:11PM)
Wow, you TypeAlot too!
Message: Posted by: Nick W (Aug 22, 2012 09:21PM)
Sir Richard, nobody uses the knives like the cups. I'm from chicago and nobodys ever opened with it. it really is the cups hes calling attention to for a reason.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 22, 2012 10:02PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-22 22:21, Nick W wrote:
Sir Richard, nobody uses the knives like the cups. I'm from chicago and nobodys ever opened with it. it really is the cups hes calling attention to for a reason.
[/quote]
My point was that it seems to me that a lot of stuff we might learn is just a repeat of somebody else's stuff. I've personally witnessed many different versions of "The Chicago Opener," for example, by just about every lecturer we've ever had. His post just got me to thinking beyond what he was referring to. This is why I strive to always change things up and not copy other peoples stuff. BTW, I'd never open with C & B, that's my closer.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Pokie-Poke (Aug 22, 2012 10:13PM)
I don't think I ever finished with the cups. and as I don't use my table anymore (maybe to hold stuff) what cups?
@ Sir Richard, the thing Jimmy is talking about is the fact that lay people can tell what you are going to do because it is the same, down to the lines and jokes, the same as the last guy doing cups. I for one like performing but I'm not a singer so I don't do singalongs, "come on every body, whats next? your right it's an orange.."

I know some one doing the cups on the street, you know the bit, 6 final loads, something under the hat, then pass the hat. I don't need to say who, look up cups and balls on the street and you'll find some one doing it. he is very good at it, and very good performer, I just cringe when I see the cups.

with that, I still love the cups and balls, but they won't be in my street act for a while.
Message: Posted by: Mormo Zine (Aug 22, 2012 10:28PM)
Not only does everyone on the street do them but every kids magic kit comes with a set as well. I like them as a toy but wouldn't perform for money with them.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 22, 2012 10:44PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-22 23:13, Pokie-Poke wrote:
...@ Sir Richard, the thing Jimmy is talking about is the fact that lay people can tell what you are going to do because it is the same, down to the lines and jokes, the same as the last guy doing cups. I for one like performing but I'm not a singer so I don't do singalongs, "come on every body, whats next? your right it's an orange.."

I know some one doing the cups on the street, you know the bit, 6 final loads, something under the hat, then pass the hat. I don't need to say who, look up cups and balls on the street and you'll find some one doing it. he is very good at it, and very good performer, I just cringe when I see the cups.

with that, I still love the cups and balls, but they won't be in my street act for a while.
[/quote]
I once spent a day watching Jim Cellini do the cups and balls. I've been hooked ever since! If they were good enough for him they are good enough for me, but I'm not a Cellini or Gazzo clone! However I do understand what you mean about "cringing! I feel the same way about the color-changing knives, the Prof.'s Nightmare, Bill to Lemon, and so on!

Sir Richard.
[quote]
On 2012-08-22 23:28, Mormo Zine wrote:
Not only does everyone on the street do them but every kids magic kit comes with a set as well. I like them as a toy but wouldn't perform for money with them.
[/quote]
I respect you're choice. However I WILL and DO perform for money with them...and it works. However I use a different routine and maybe that's why I get away with it! No oranges for final loads, only rubber golf balls!

Sir Richard.

Posted: Aug 22, 2012 11:51pm
Another thought, I've seen many C & B routines from pros who've given lectures in our club that "kill:'

Paul Gertner, Michael Ammar, David Regal, Shawn Farqhuar, etc..

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 23, 2012 02:45AM)
I can relate to the original post...
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 05:31AM)
Sir richard.

Paul Gertner, Michael Ammar, David Regal, Shawn Farqhuar,bill malone, lance Burton, tommy wonder, and jim cellini weren't doing gazzo's show as a closer on the street....are you?

these guys took the time to make the trick different, why is that so hard?

and at the end of cedllini's life, he was teaching people to do other finales or to do the cups on the ground.

and if that is good enough for cellini that is good enough for me.

you know all this really tells us the genius of jeff sheridan.......
Message: Posted by: Scotty Walsh (Aug 23, 2012 05:32AM)
I think the cups and balls are still fine. It's the identical and not deceptive final sequence with the 6 oranges and the melon that is wearing thin. Cellini finished with three loads and a grapefruit in the hat. And he didn't even need a pouch for that. Watch the first Cellini DVD on Street Performing, if you haven't, and you will be blown away at how he got the grapefruit in the hat. That is the outside the box thinking that the cups and balls needs more of. Maybe I'm missing something, but the loading method people are using makes me cringe. I understand it is angle proof, but it isn't deceptive at all, from any angle. Except for maybe directly behind, where the specs can't see anything anyway.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 23, 2012 05:39AM)
I don't do Gazzo's routine. I don't do it because I can't bring anything to it. It's so strong, it would overwhelm me and I would be simply mimicking Gazzo. I do Mark Wilson's routine with two changes. One, I changed the "three lemons" ending for an ending with three over sized balls. This never fails to get a major reaction from people who think I'm going to show the three smaller balls under the cups for a third time.

Second, after showing the over sized balls, I patter that after a routine like that I'd like an ice-cold Corona... but you can't drink on the street AND there's nothing worse than a tipsy magician... but when I go home and crack open an ice-cold Corona, (lift the stack of cups to reveal a (artificial) lime) I have the lime.

These two changes never fail to get a reaction.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 05:51AM)
Copying a trick the way it was sold isn't what magician's do, it's what laymen do after they buy a trick.

just my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Aug 23, 2012 07:24AM)
I agree that watching every single person do Gazzo's show on the street gets old. Really, really, old. I used to finale with a rope routine. I now am doing cups and balls. I am doing a variation on the Vernon/Malini routine. I use either 3 lemons or 3 limes or a combination of the two. I rarely use any more. I do a something in the hat (whatever is big and cheap at the grocery store). I have my own lines for the routine, I don't use Gazzo's. I don't do the, "let me show you how it's done" bit either. I am working on my routine that incorporates ideas I got from The Books of Wonder.

I also know that it doesn't matter what you finale with. As long as it is strong and you have good entertaining patter to go with it, you will get paid. That said, I like the cups and balls, I honestly am not happy doing the same show so many do. The reason I am performing the show the way I am now is so that I can learn about loads. Tommy Wonder had some great ideas on loading the cups, that used STRONG Misdirection. If you stick the cup into your pouch, I just think that is kinda lame. There are much better and less obvious ways to cover the loads. I can say that the Tommy Wonder misdirection in his two cup routine is so strong that he loads objects into the cups that are laying on the table in front of you. I have watched his cups and balls 100+ times and I have The Books of Wonder, I still don't see it happen. AMAZING. The thing is, this type of magic isn't easy.

In Gazzo's Cups and Balls material he says, these sleights are not difficult and there nothing in here that the beginner shouldn't be able to do. Other material is not like that all. A wand spin vanish is not something that just anyone can do well. The timing needed to execute some of the moves Tommy Wonder does is not simple to master. Creating your own show, with your own patter takes work. Coming up with your own sequence also takes work. So why is everyone on the street doing Gazzo's show? It is easy, it works, it pays, and you don't have to do any work to do it, it's all been done for you.

Why are there not thousands of Jimmy Tallksalot clones? I have an opinion on that as well. You see Gazzo's Character is the Cool guy that always quips at the audience. He is the guy that everyone wants to be, like a Rock Star. Jimmy's character is more like Billy Bob Thornton in Sling Blade. The character is great. The show is great. But no one dreams of being that guy, plus copying him isn't as easy. Gazzo's show is great, when Gazzo does it.

Now I am by no means as experienced as many other people here so if you disagree tell me why.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 07:52AM)
Scotty,

You make a very strong point. Also, this thinking outside of the box thing, is also what I am talking about.

I think the reason, these guys are doing EXACTLY the same thing is because they simply are not magicians and they simply can not do magic tricks unless they monkey see, monkey do, from the instructions of the trick.

I am not being arrogant or illitist or "artsy". Copying the instructions to a trick and then apeing it for some other layman does not make you a magician.

If this were true then everyone in the world would be a magician, simply by doing the snapper trick. What has happened here, is our industry has been invaded by hustlers from other industries out to get the money we make, because they saw a simple system to what we do. It's just another form of money guy out there laughing at us again. When you call them on it, they try and act like one of us, "oh I like magic too, but I wouldn't do it for free." Well anyone who has had the magic bug, knows, yes you would do it for free lol

What's worse is many "magicians" in our industry are so desperate for work, that they give up and agree with money guys, because they think this is the only way to make a living.

I'll never forget the day Sonny Holliday was at the Magic Castle for the first time and he spotted a row of move monkeys on a couch together all doing their pass for each other for hours.

Sonny looked stunned and apalled, he started screaming at them, "Where do you work! Where do you work!"

Just before he attacked one of them me and my friend Eric grabbed him and drug him away screaming. We told Sonny, "you can't do that Sonny, those guys help pay the bills here for the castle."

He said, "All I wanna know is where do they work."

Of course we know they don't. Any way, there are a lot of people right now reading this that have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about and you'll see by thier responses. It's like I'm speaking Chinese or something.

Posted: Aug 23, 2012 8:59am
Gr8gorilla,

Thanks for the compliment and thanks for aswering my question.
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 23, 2012 08:03AM)
End 'big.'

If fruit from hat is as big as you can get, so be it.

I usually end my show with my Box of Doom. I like to end with someone from the audience sharing the stage with me, and who I can also direct all of the applause too.

If I have to do C&B's, for years I've been doing something like that David Williamson 2 cup routine he had in his book. Its evolved into more or less a run of gags rather than a display of technical prowess. Personally, I never really cared for the endless orange production because to me it seemed kind of obvious where all those oranges were coming from. I've also played around with some ideas that James Prince put out on dvd mainly because you analyze it, you don't need any stack moves. I can do the routine with soup cans, which really appeals to me character. I even played around with chopping one of the cans and using rubber mice instead of balls. That routine was all about not being able to catch this darn mouse living in my prop bag.

C&B's are ok as a middle effect, but for me, I'd rather end a show with a spectator on stage.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 08:11AM)
There are literally hundreds of thousands of tricks at our disposal as magicians in magic catalogs, but nope, we gotta do the cups and balls on the street and do it like gazzo.

there are literally thousands of slieght of hand moves done with any thing that can be held in your hand, but nope, gotta be those little balls under the cups and it has to be gazzo's way or your doin it wrong.

well not me fellahs, no friggin thanks.

and guess what, I know a bunch of guys who don't buy it either.

money guys don't care if we think they are untalented losers, because they are laughing all the way to the bank with our money.

Posted: Aug 23, 2012 9:20am
I've always loved your work pizpor, I'm sorry I'm venting, but I've have had this bundled up inside a long time.

there are a lot of super great guys, who work super hard on their acts like you do and I don't mean to offend any of them, believe me. all I'm sayin is if everyone is doing the cups, and "magicians" now are not creative enough to present it defferently.....or even know difference. why can't they do one of the literally millions of other tricks we have in books?

Posted: Aug 23, 2012 9:32am
Why can't a magician make his own routine with the cups. is it really that hard fellahs, isn't that what magicians make magic shows? friggin wow.

look if you can't put together a magic routine.....wow...try another hobby this one is to complicated for you.

the only magicians I ever met that couldn't put a cup routine together was street magicians, any indoor magician can do it.

lol, just kidding I know street magicians who do it, but there talented and creative....lol.

look at me I'm runnin through town shootin my gun off....ha ha.

stating the obvious about the eliphant in the room the money guys have been trying to hide.
Message: Posted by: Scotty Walsh (Aug 23, 2012 08:40AM)
I had a funny experience in Covent Garden a while back. I was walking through and saw a magician with the standard set up. Tray stand, table top, three cups, pouch, etc. And I just kept walking. Never thought I'd see the day where I wouldn't stop to watch a street magician. But I already knew the show. It's not really like people are imitating Gazzo. I've never seen anybody approach Gazzo's level of comical(?) nastiness. It's his final sequence that everyone is running into the ground.

I just think it is bad theory. Three loads you can do before anybody is aware of anything. You even have shade for the fourth, because of the appearance of the first. The hat is good because it provides lots of natural cover. But the fifth and sixth loads are fully exposed. The eye follows the movement. When I watch the Gazzo act, I try NOT to watch the loads. And I can't do it. And oranges are too big. The cups are too big. And I'm sure everyone says, "well it fools my audiences" or "it gets the money."

It's true some people miss everything. Williamson just dumped a bag of lemons on his table and some people thought they appeared magically. But I think crowds are being very polite and with some proper sleight-of-hand the trick can be so much better. It's like a super-sized cups and balls routine. Remember when Malini became a legend for getting rid of the pouch?

I'm only chiming in on this because I'm trying to get my 50 posts, and because I miss you, Jimmy.
Message: Posted by: ASCII (Aug 23, 2012 08:41AM)
Gazzo's routine is really strong that's why so many people do it.....and that's why I don't.
I was working a festival a few years ago and 3 people were doing the Gazzo routine, and one of them was Gazzo.

But the same thing can probably be said about the Vernon routine, probably the most copied routine ever.
so much in fact that most new magicians think your supposed to expose palming a ball and the false transfer when doing a cups and balls routine, and that's just the way its done. I never likes that part of it, but when Vernon did it it was a novelty and that phase was almost a parody of the cups and balls but when every body copied it the novelty is lost and it just becomes normal.

Not that what I came up with is 100% original mind you, because I still use the moves and ideas from the others who come before me.
mine has moves and ideas from Ammar, Williamson, Vernon, mallini, Paul daniels and Rafael benatar (who I think has one of the most underrated routine out there) what I did was read and watch every routine I could get my hands on, then I wrote down my Favorite parts, and the parts I don't like and built it from the ground up. and I would encourage anyone to try this, although it will take longer then learning a pre packaged routine it will help you in the long run.
Message: Posted by: TRUMPETMAN (Aug 23, 2012 10:00AM)
Gazzo has many imitators because of the large amount of marketing done with his DVD/Book. Sadly, I bet most who bought it never cracked the first page of the book. We live in a time when any punk can buy a DVD, watch it on their laptop, and copy it. Very few in the next gen of performers are taking the time to create, and instead only copying. DVDs make that easy. Last time I was in a large city in the NW that shall remain nameless, I watched a street performer doing a watch stealing act, then selling a DVD right there on his table of the very same act. I was not impressed with his technique, as he literally stumbled through several badly done steals, even apologizing for it while doing it. Still, people were buying the DVDs. Think of all the badly executed clones he was creating by doing that. Bottom line, if the act is available on DVD, people are gonna copy it because most of them are just plain to lazy to create something original.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 23, 2012 10:59AM)
I have the Gazzo book and DVD on "Street Cups." I absolutely LOVE to watch Gazzo do it! I don't do it, and for a very good reason..actually TWO very good reasons:

1.) It's to much like work!

2.) As Jimmy and others have mentioned, it's being done to death!

I'll be totally honest here, when I first started performing for my club I did "Rub-a-Dub-dub" Bill Malone style! I got a "standing O" from the members! However, I absolutely hated the routine! I thought it was totally infantile! But my mentor gave me some reasons to stick with it:

1.) It's audience tested!

2.) It fits my personality/style.

3.) It "kills!"

4.) And most importantly, nobody else seems to be doing it!

I'll continue doing it as long as I'm performing, however, if any of you that don't approve and we someday cross paths, I'll totally understand if you don't tip, fair enough?

Sir Richard.

Posted: Aug 23, 2012 12:05pm
BTW, Jimmy and others that agree with him; I also agree with jimmy about not doing what everybody else does. That's why most of my effects use my own twist. However, I only steal from the best! Muh-ha-hah-hah-hah!

Sir Richard!
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 23, 2012 11:05AM)
BTW, Jimmy and others that agree with him; I also agree with jimmy about not doing what everybody else does. That's why most of my effects use my own twist. However, I only steal from the best! Muh-ha-hah-hah-hah!

Sir Richard!
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 11:32AM)
With all respect really Sir Richard please forgive my sarcasm, it's how I am.


so I should NOT create my own act or routine or character, but use some one elses, because it kills? tried and true? and because SOMEONE ELSES WORK FITS MY CHARACTER?

all due respect to you and your mentor, but no thanks.

seriously I mean no disrespect. if that's the way y'all do it, great.

but I will not encourage that in my students nor was it ever encourage for me to do it that way....imagine some one suggesting that to Slydini lol.

I mean I could understand learning it for an exercise and goofin, but to take someones act and use it proffessionally, no.

please, don't be angry with me, but I respectfully disagree.

once again,

WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR A "MAGICIAN" TO CREATE A MAGIC SHOW, ISN'T THAT WHAT A MAGICIAN DOES?
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 23, 2012 11:42AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-23 12:32, jimmy talksalot wrote:
With all respect really Sir Richard please forgive my sarcasm, it's how I am.


so I should NOT create my own act or routine or character, but use some one elses, because it kills? tried and true? and because SOMEONE ELSES WORK FITS MY CHARACTER?

all due respect to you and your mentor, but no thanks.

seriously I mean no disrespect. if that's the way y'all do it, great.

but I will not encourage that in my students nor was it ever encourage for me to do it that way....imagine some one suggesting that to Slydini lol.

I mean I could understand learning it for an exercise and goofin, but to take someones act and use it proffessionally, no.

please, don't be angry with me, but I respectfully disagree.

once again,

WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR A "MAGICIAN" TO CREATE A MAGIC SHOW, ISN'T THAT WHAT A MAGICIAN DOES?
[/quote]

I don't take it as disrespect, Jimmy, just your opinion, and your certainly entitled to it! My mentor has brought me out of the doldrums of an average job into doing something I've longed to do since the age of eleven. Although not a professional magician himself, he does have a PH'd in Business and teaches at the major University here. He also knows many pros, such as Max Maven, Lance Burton, Mac King, Ben Ulin, etc., on a personal basis and is very good friends with them. He's an international travler and knows many others in both Paris and London. I'm proud to call him "friend" as well as mentor.

How you teach your students is definitely your business, and I'm not meaning to be disrespectful, but I wouldn't be one of them. Much like you and the other Buskers out there I'm a very independent cuss and speak my own mind, I can't help it, I'm mostly Irish! :O) At 65 years of age, I've learned to do what ever it takes to provide for my family, and I don't need anybody else's permission to perform the way I choose. That being said, I certainly wouldn't be so foolish as to place my ability on the same level as that of yours! Happy Busking!

Sir Richard!
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 11:54AM)
Good day sir

Posted: Aug 23, 2012 1:00pm
Oh and by the way, Max Maven, Lance Burton, Mac King, Ben Ulin all became succesful for doing there own shows, not coping someone elses. lol

your irish?

I'm in ireland right now and I love it wow.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 23, 2012 12:06PM)
If you can make it to County Cork in Cobh, there are some wonderful busking areas in that town mate!
Enjoy Brother...take some pics.
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 23, 2012 12:08PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-23 13:00, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Oh and by the way, Max Maven, Lance Burton, Mac King, Ben Ulin all became succesful for doing there own shows, not coping someone elses. lol

[/quote]

and Harry Anderson, Johnny Thompson, Rudy Coby, John Carney, .....

Trying to get a conversation going about creating a character is realy hard around here

Thanks Jimmy!
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 23, 2012 12:09PM)
No one will ever top your roadside band busking Pizpor!
You rock pardner!
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 23, 2012 12:16PM)
U R my new BFF!!

Thanks Devious! That was a great day!
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 12:22PM)
Exactly.

so;

WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR A "MAGICIAN" TO CREATE A MAGIC SHOW, ISN'T THAT WHAT A MAGICIAN DOES?

still waiting for a proper answer.
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 23, 2012 12:46PM)
It's hard because the path of least resistance and perceived success is to imitate. When you see others performing successfully you believe that you can enjoy the same level of esteem if only you could do exactly as them. So you copy to avoid the possible embarrassment of having something of your own creation fail in front of dozens of people.

There is a real thrill with coming up with a new piece.

With respect (to you Jimmy), and just my opinion.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 01:58PM)
Pizpor,

yeah, wow, good answer, thanks.

the things is though, I think that is the essence of our job.

Every job has it's hard part and this is ours.

And I don't think it's fare to anyone to copy stuff for a pat on the back.

I think if someone wants to be in this business, -creating- needs to be a the top of the list.

I literaly can't count the times I have stepped infront of a crowd to try out some new routine only to have it fail, but then it gives me the answers to be able to make it work. because then I know how the people want that trick presented to them.

this is the WHOLE POINT to going to the street, because you can fail over and over and who cares their just strangers and when they leave a new batch of strangers arrive, so when you finally do master the new routine, you're dangerous because you just tested it a hundred times infront of a tough audience.

right now I'm working out a sponge ball routine, that I believe will revolutionalize how I approach the street and magic props.

using them for parlor manip and interactions I just stumbled into it and I've never seen any one else approach it this way I don't know why, except for a sequence sonny taught me I use to finish the routine.

but even there the plot, character, and handling is different.

this I believe is the difference between doing magic and doing a trick like a layman.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 23, 2012 02:10PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-23 09:32, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Why can't a magician make his own routine with the cups....is it really that hard fellahs, isn't that what magicians make....magic shows?

friggin wow.

look if you can't put together a magic routine.....wow...try another hobby this one is to complicated for you.
[/quote]

When I was an actor, I didn't write my own plays.

That's why.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 02:11PM)
The thing is, I ain't braggin, this is nothin to brag about, this is simply the work a magician is supposed to be doing.

it's like complimenting a trash man cuz he took out the trash it's just the job and every single "magician" should be doing this in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 23, 2012 02:13PM)
You should be bragging. If it's something you're good at, go for it.

Me? I would come off as Ed Wood Jr. who also wrote his own material.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 02:16PM)
Ed,

actor, different job....that's an actor.

new job now ed. magician....tougher job, more involved.
Message: Posted by: Scotty Walsh (Aug 23, 2012 02:19PM)
But the thing is, it's hard to be original in magic when you are just beginning. Because it's not enough just to make original material. It also has to work, and it has to be deceptive. So, beginners are smart to start with classics and learn a routine from one of the masters who infused decades of theory and understanding into the structure. My first cups and balls routine was from Mark Wilson. These guys do Gazzo's.

I have no problem with that. And really, most people are way too smart to try to take Gazzo's character. In a way it is good that everyone is doing Gazzo's routine, because Gazzo, personally, is inimitable. Everyone used to do Vernon. Now they do Gazzo, which is basically Vernon with a different ending.

I have no problem with that either. The difference is that people are now getting their start with the cups on the street, whereas people used to get their start with a coloring book and milk pitcher in a living room. But, all things considered it is probably a step UP for magic.

And really, everybody doing cups and balls... isn't that what street corners are made for? That's how it used to be, too, according to the pictures. The public was sick to death of the trick, and magicians stopped doing it, and Malini revolutionized it by dropping the gib. Now, in ten years, someone can revolutionize the trick again by working out of the pockets and the public will go nuts! "Where did the lemons come from?! He wasn't even wearing a giant purse bag thing!?"

No, I think that's the natural progression of things. My problem is that everyone is copying a flawed routine. But, like someone said, that's marketing. And once you buy those Gazzo cups, you're stuck with the oranges, and stuck with the pouch. I think people should buy normal sized cups, use a smart number of smart sized loads, and start thinking about where they can hide a grapefruit.

That's what I think. At this moment, at least.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 02:22PM)
Ed you said; "I would come off as Ed Wood Jr. who also wrote his own material."

that's a good thing.
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 23, 2012 02:25PM)
One of my biggest creative challenges is finding the means by which I can get a routine to fit the character. Over the years I've had several routines I've wanted to do but never really been able to incorporate into my act because I just can't find the hook that would make it 'Pizpor.' But when I do figure it out, than it turns into some real fun stuff.

Failure makes you stronger.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 23, 2012 02:28PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-23 14:58, jimmy talksalot wrote:
right now I'm working out a sponge ball routine,
[/quote]
Here are two of my friends working out a new sponge ball routine.
[img]http://jumptheturnstyle.com/wp-content/uploads/karatekid_450x3001.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 02:30PM)
Scotty,

what about all the guys who are not doing the cups on the street and are not even starting out with the cups?

I have students who never even did the cups and are working full time. why isn't that natural?

they didn't have a problem learning the streets or learning magic, infact they are way more versitile, because if you tell them, ok take this or that out of your act, it's no problem for them...tell a cups guy he can't do cups and watch him crumble.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 23, 2012 02:35PM)
Yup, watch them crumble, but first watch my spongeball!
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 02:35PM)
It's the wise performer who can carry a deck of cards, some coins, some sponge balls, and a thumb.

like I said, about gary animal he showed up with just his talent and went to the 1 euro store and picked up props for his magic. that's a magician.
Message: Posted by: Scotty Walsh (Aug 23, 2012 02:47PM)
Your students are lucky to have you, Jimmy. Some people just have a DVD.

You've got to accept it. Cups and Balls with the Oranges and the Melon is the Hippity Hop Rabbits of our generation. It's a better trick than Hippity Hop Rabbits. HH Rabbits came with patter and presentation, too, and everyone copied it.

You say, "magicians can't make magic shows anymore, because of the cups?" But 30 years ago, maybe you could have said, "magicians can't make magic shows anymore, because of the Hippity Hop Rabbits." Or because of the Rings.

Also, these guys used to do a show and no one had to know about it. Now, with Facebook and our world traveling and whatnot, we know what everyone else is doing.

You know, Jimmy, I've never disagreed with a word you've said, and I'm not now. Just saying that cookie cutter hack magic is as old as the art. Some people are fountains of creativity like you. Some people are late blooming sponges, like me. For some, it is a never ending journey to be creative. And some never even try.

Anyhow, not doing the cups is pretty smart. You can be lots different than the pack and you don't have to haul around a table and a melon. I agree with you, I just understand where these guys are coming from. We were bad once, too.... Or, were we?!
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 23, 2012 02:53PM)
It's the difference between chef & cook but we call em both Magician.
A cook can open a can & follow a recipe.
A chef can gather ingredients and construct heaven.

It's not difficult to create a routine with C&B's, rope, cards, silks, etc.
Some do find it difficult to want to though.
I really do wish that content expressing how oh so hard it is would cease.
Great thinkers have put together wonderful routines but that didn't happen first shot.
It's a process and that doesn't mean that it's difficult, it does mean you have to put in effort.
I guess what I would really like is for there not to be such a huge market for "turnkey" magic but that's not gonna happen.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 23, 2012 02:54PM)
[img]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m34mul24s61qhc32n.gif[/img]
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 03:29PM)
Fellahs I hear what your sayin

Posted: Aug 23, 2012 4:31pm
Miss you devious, hows roger?
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 23, 2012 04:25PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-23 13:00, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Oh and by the way, Max Maven, Lance Burton, Mac King, Ben Ulin all became succesful for doing there own shows, not coping someone elses. lol

your irish?

I'm in ireland right now and I love it wow.
[/quote]I remember talking to Ben Ulin, he did our club's Christmas party a few years back. I told him how embarrassed I was doing the Rub-a-dub-dub routine. He said "Why? That's a classic that hardly anybody's doing...and it needs to be dusted off and done!" When I bought the Phoenix cups from Tom Franks I told him basically the same thing...I mean look at the size of the final loads! Golf balls for crying out loud! Tom told me that there's nothing wrong with doing that routine, it holds it's own and it's a classic!

So you're in Ireland huh! My niece visited there a while back and loved it! If I ever run into you I promise not to do any cups & balls, but I got some Irish jokes I'll share with you! And finally, my show is definitely a "work in progress," however it's still a show, and I haven't had a bad audience yet! Have a pint of stout on me!

Sir Richard!
Message: Posted by: solrak29 (Aug 23, 2012 05:21PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-23 13:00, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I'm in ireland right now and I love it wow.
[/quote]
I heard that there is the 'Arse' Festival that will be occurring
soon in Gallway (spelling) and it's a known spot for street
performers.

I heard about this from a nice couple who were from that part
of Ireland. They stayed after the show to tell me all about it
when I was working the pitch earlier this year. I also
confirmed the festival with my better half who has family over
there.
[quote]
On 2012-08-23 13:00, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I'm in ireland right now and I love it wow.
[/quote]
I'll be looking to get out there next year must be really
nice out there.
Message: Posted by: writeall (Aug 23, 2012 06:00PM)
Maybe people who are creative and talented find it easy to be creative and talented. I've never invented a trick worth two bits. The only thing out of the box for me is a whole lotta "sucks."

And then there are cover bands.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 23, 2012 06:43PM)
You don't need to invent a trick.
You don't need to cover someone else's trick.
All you need to do is create a presentation.
This is going to be a good thing because it's going to be from you, for you, by you.
That's a lot of you and that's good. You are the best you you can be.
Do you believe in yourself? I believe in you too! (thanks Lou Holtz!)
Then when you perform your epic rendition of lets say the ancient C&B's and it falls flat on it's face you have made the first step to greatness, failure.

Think of the magic as the instrument and you play it. You can use the same instrument as someone else but you aren't going to play the way they do cause theys them and youse you. Write your own arraignments.
Message: Posted by: troppobob (Aug 23, 2012 08:46PM)
G'day Mr Fat Hatter

I saw this thread the other day and have only just now had a chance to read through it.

I like how you made your point Mr Fat Hatter.

Jimmy - thank you for instigating this discussion. I went to FISM in July and then my wife and I traveled in a campervan through Ireland and the UK before taking the train through Europe. Right now we are ready to head back to Oz after a week in Indonesia surfing and relaxing as well as some magic performances for the locals.

Bob Latta aka (Tropp Bob)
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Aug 23, 2012 08:50PM)
I thought we had already beat this horse to death?? Ultimately Jimmy ... the problem is that people have different opinions on what a "magician" actually is.

It seems to me that most magicians see a magician as a character from the 1800's in top hat and tails pulling rabbits from a hat. Generally, their tricks are more "store bought".

Then there are those of us who go back further in time, and see a magician as a traveling stranger from the dark ages that goes from town to town performing in the markets, the pubs, and right out on the sidewalk ... often discreet because he doesn't want to get burned at the stake. There were no magic shops, thus he had to create his own magic.

I don't think either type of magician is going to convince the other that their side of the fence has greener grass. I've just learned to live with it. My success is based on what I do ... not on what anyone else does.

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 23, 2012 11:28PM)
No joe joe I'm sayin worse yet, there's a third guy now.

there's a guy who thinks magicians are joke and copies gazzo's routine and comes out to the street.

joe joe, the fact is that most indoor magicians create to some degree at least making an original presentation for a classic routine.

at this point I would love it if some guy with a top hat and store bought tricks came out and did his thing.

at least I'd get to some old classics instead of the cups and balls counted I,II,III

no, I pine for the day that some magicians were just corny, but now we got money guys teaching clones to do circle shows and to blow out pitches with super loud amps and hound people for money, then they turn into clones who teach new clones etc.

no joe we let the money guys in and now they've brought in their ugly cousin.

Posted: Aug 24, 2012 12:43am
I know I'm wasting my time here. but I thought maybe one new guy might say, "hey you know wow I can look at this as an artform."
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Aug 23, 2012 11:48PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 00:28, jimmy talksalot wrote:
there's a guy who thinks magicians are joke and copies gazzo's routine and comes out to the street.

[/quote]

Jimmy, someone dedicated to "the art" of magic but has never busked and goes out, is on a big learning curve. How could someone that thinks magicians are a joke, learn the cups and balls and go out and make money?

I'm having trouble connecting the dots. If someone thinks stand up comedy is a breeze, learns ( takes ) jokes that they've heard other comics do and takes the stage, they will fail. Not so much that the audience knows they aren't original, but it takes years to get good at it. Timing, etc.

Thanks for helping me understand.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 03:20AM)
They only respect the work it takes to get it so they can make money, they have no idea that there is more to it then a "trick" and a "money making system", if you try and tell them there is something more important to a magician than that, they will start mocking you and the other magicians.

this is the problem with mass distrubution of magic products, it attracts people with very narrow, limited and base, thinking, who think magic is a hustle.

it's sort of like saying, "well I married her and bought her a house, but she's not really a person, but hey I respect her cuz I bought the house so get off my back."

now the smart clones get it, like the head clone in covent garden, he comes right out and says it's all about the money and magicians are joke.

SIMPLY,

copying takes away from any respect for any of it you may say you have....actions are louder than words.

smart clones realize this and just embrace it.

Posted: Aug 24, 2012 4:28am Reply with quote Send a Private Message View Profile of jimmy talksalot Edit/Delete This Post Report this post to forum moderator View Posters IP (Moderators/Admins Only)
The problem I think is that if you are not a person really cursed with the magic bug you don't get it.

I mean most everyone wants to learn a trick or two, but someone bit by the bug is an artist or a fanatic call it what you will.

anyway,

I'm goona stop writing now because I'm starting to get the destinct impression that I am a minority opinion here and that the topic maybe flying over some heads making me look like a madman.

Posted: Aug 24, 2012 4:46am
And some of the questions are flying over my head lol
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 24, 2012 04:51AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-23 15:22, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Ed you said; "I would come off as Ed Wood Jr. who also wrote his own material."

that's a good thing.
[/quote]

Have you ever sat through an Ed Wood Jr. film?
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 24, 2012 05:33AM)
Hoooo Boy... if this post is funny... ROTFL as they say in internet... and better with a mix of good thougths...
Cups are the most magical routine EVER... if one understand the cups will understand what is real magic... its like the symbol of magic... like the horse to the ferrari... next week I will go outdoors without cups... kinda of Jimmy test...
Message: Posted by: Payne (Aug 24, 2012 09:45AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 00:28, jimmy talksalot wrote:

joe joe, the fact is that most indoor magicians create to some degree at least making an original presentation for a classic routine.

[/quote]

Don't see many "indoor magicians" do ya. :)

You're lament isn't reserved for the street worker. It's a problem in virtually every aspect of magic. Each genre has it's hacks. Performers who only put tricks in their acts because they saw another magician do it in theirs. They also end up performing it in the exact same way, not because they are lazy or uncreative. But because it just has never occurred to them that there might be another way to do the trick. Mostly because they are surrounded by magicians doing the exact same thing.
Message: Posted by: Legerdemaniac (Aug 24, 2012 10:44AM)
Thanks Jimmy for this post that freed me from a weird mental grip I have been under. I'm a "new guy" to the street, but most definitely bit by the bug and doing it because it's what I want to do, but there is some strange compulsion with the Cups & Balls, I have never done them before in ten years performing but the moment I made the decision to perform on the street I began putting a routine together, not Gazzo's, I was trying to be original, but I didn't enjoy it, I've never liked the effect, all the lines I was coming up with for it felt wasted and better for other stuff, yet still I pushed on like some mental programming was forcing me to close a street act with the cups.

After reading this thread through I am freed, I'll polish off the routine for future usage, maybe use it as a middle once or twice if a situation calls for it, but I'll close with something else from now on (even though every idea so far has died on it's arse).

That oughta make you happy and soothe the ranting beast inside at least Jimmy :) I don't think you are in the minority here at all, a few have debated with you as is the nature of the internet, if the others who agreed all chimed in this would be a long boring thread, apart from being an interesting study in how many different ways "I agree" could be typed.
Message: Posted by: TRUMPETMAN (Aug 24, 2012 10:57AM)
Master Payne speaks the truth.

One fellow in my neck of the woods went as far as to come to one of my dear friend's shows,(my friend is a consumate worker) stood in the back, video taped the whole thing, then went out and bought the entire show lock, stock, prop, and barrel. He stole practically every line from my bud's script. If that wasn't enough, he then scanned some of the content from an iconic, currently published magic book, turned it into his own BOR sales tool, and openly sold a kit to "do it yourself" to other magicians.

Needless to say, when my friend found out his show was being done (poorly) by this guy, he called the punk on stealing his show. Nothing could make the jerk stop.

When the author of the previously mentioned magic tome found out what this punk had done, he sent lawyers after him. Believe it or not, the punk in question has found a home now with the "sell more shows" workshop crowd, and continues to make a living by selling what others created, claiming it as his own.

There is no limit to the amount of theft that occurs in the house of magic, it seems, and no limit to the amount of people waiting to step up and do the same, over, and over, and over....
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 24, 2012 11:13AM)
I think I see the problem here. 1st off, I'm not a Busker, so Jimmy, in all likelihood, won't ever see me perform. I'm also NOT a "Gazzo clone!" I suspect that Jimmy has seen many a newcomer to magic try to imitate Gazzo, and fail miserably. That's like all the Elvis impersonators out there trying to imitate the one and only King! Gazzo is an experienced actor as well as a top flight magician! He also has that "cute" little English accent that American audiences love! I'm into comedy magic, and I'm very good at it! People love how I do C & B and I'm NOT quitting because somebody might think it's not art! I really don't care. And yes, I'm out to make money, what's wrong with that?

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 24, 2012 12:34PM)
Here is Ricky Jay when he was told by Abe Lincoln that folks didn't like his cups routine,
[img]http://filmlinc.com/page/-/uploads/films/RickyJay1.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 01:20PM)
I never liked lincoln and always loved ricky jays cup routine. his tribute history lesson is wonderful.

lincoln on the other hand, well lets just say I didn't like his work in the south, maybe he was popular with the nothern audiences, but he bombed in the south know what I mean.

and the jokes don't get any better....

and payne....point taken...ouch.

I laughed out loud when I read it. I guess I've forgotten how awful they can be at the clubs.

and trumpetman....wow! what a nightmare! guess I should count my blessings....but I'm sure we'll be seeing that hack on the front cover of one of our industrie's magazines soon, telling us how to do magic the right way.

it's our own fault we let em in and rally behind them and call them authorities in there field.

we say things like, "well if you want to make money...."

the old timers tell me it was a heck of a lot harder to break into our business if you were a hack like that in the very olden days, not to say they didn't have them, it was just seriously less and insignificant.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Aug 24, 2012 01:29PM)
One mistake magicians make is thinking that their spectators see magic all the time. I can tell this because of their posts like...

"don't do that line. everybody's heard it."
"don't do the cups. everybody's seen it."
"don't use a TT, everybody knows how it's done".
"don't say blah, it's a cliche'd line"
"don't do the cups, it's been revealed on TV"

The fact is, most people have never seen anyone besides a friend/family member do magic, and even fewer have ever seen anyone do it well; especially to the
point of remembering anything about it.

The fact is, rarely does anyone know how anything is done. Especially when performed well, it looks nothing like they imagine, except when a hack does it.
Case in point.. Does anyone REALLY steal a TT the "old" way anymore? The way a spectator might notice? Of course not. Right?

So, if you want to do the cups, do the cups. That's why I do it. I like doing it. Of course, I liked it a lot better and performed it a lot better once I developed my own routine.

Why does everyone do the cups:
It's recognizable from a distance and draws attention.
It makes noise, if you wish.
It's been time tested as a great trick.
Few can think of a better closer.

Why do so many do Gazzo's routine (if that's even true. I really don't know. I don't see street magicians) ?
Magicians copy something that works until they figure out what works better for them.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 01:30PM)
Eduardo,

I love the cups too, that's why I'm going crazy here. the cups are a brilliant tool, poetry when done right.

the greatest things is all the different equations and combinations that can be worked out. THAT NOBODY IS WORKING OUT ANYMORE!

lol

it's a great trick.

but alright already, know what I mean.

the 17 trillion other tricks in magic might be pretty good too you know.

thanks and please tell me how it goes and thanks for being so patient with me.

Posted: Aug 24, 2012 2:43pm
Frank,

I travel quite a bit and see a lot of magicians and I also get a lot of them sending me footage on youtube of their act and I promise you it's what I'm telling you.

gary animal last week told me he woukld watch a slew of magicians que up and after a few shows the audience would start yelling out the next sequence.

I have also seen this.

when I was in colorado, not only did I see a the gazzo routine, I SAW KIDS IN RESTERUANTS AT THE PITCH at the same time DOING CUPS AND BALLS FOR THEIR FAMILIES. really

in covent garden I actually saw 12 guys fighting over magic corner to do gazzos routine.

if there's a pitch and there's magicians working a pitch I promise you there's a guy doing the cups like gazzo.

the thing is even if the audience has not seen it, why should everyone be doing it? I mean like gazzo.

WHY CAN'T MAGICIANS CREATE THEIR OWN MAGIC SHOW ISN'T THAT WHAT MAGICIANS DO.

of course I'm ranting and frank I consider you a friend so please don't take this to heart..i'm just a little overwhelmed by what I'm seeing on the road and all the guys who caontact me and tell me the expert money guys told them to do this. this happens when ever I check my mail...or work a pitch.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 24, 2012 01:45PM)
[img]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/warn-manners.png[/img]
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 01:50PM)
Infact I've kept it bottled up for 5 years now and have tried not to go on the net, but everyone keeps tellin these beginners, "well if you wanna make money" "or hey nothings original." or "it's already tried and true, don't fix it if it's not broken."

and there goes another clone off the assembly line.

don't make me gather all the clones youtube footage from around the world and post it here, it's prolific to biblical proportions.

sorry I'm frustrated.

thanks for puttin up with me.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Aug 24, 2012 02:04PM)
I could understand if people went out on the street with a Svengali deck, a paddle trick, Rocky Raccoon,etc. and were making great money, but having no interest in magic, low opinion of magicians, etc.

But learning the cups and balls has me baffled. Many magicians that love magic don't care for the trick. Someone that has no interest in magic and is just learning tricks for the street could pick far easier tricks than the cups.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Aug 24, 2012 02:08PM)
You'd know a lot better than me, Jimmy.

My act is my own act. I don't close with the cups.
I use my own opener, closer, I write my own scripts and don't copy anybody.
I still use the classics but all in my own way that works for me.
I got a lot better when I had the guts to start doing that.

I can relate this way...
I was shocked when a few months ago I went to the magic castle and one of the stage guys just did
a few store bought tricks and closed with The Lemon Game, complete with out-of-the-box patter. O.M.G.
Don't get me wrong, TLG is a great trick, but.... at the magic castle? seriously?

He didn't connect with the audience much; just up there reciting lines.


BTW, I owe you money.
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Aug 24, 2012 02:27PM)
You know pretty much everyone on this thread is saying the same thing:

"It's not the song it's the singer". Some people put their own twist on an old song and make it personal, some people do covers

And for people who only do cover versions they are saying" hey I make good money doing covers".There are two regular magician's in Covent Garden, one did Gazzos routine, now they both do...but they both do OK.

There's room for both. Whit Haydn recommends new magician's follow an established routine when they begin, word for word..to learn what makes a good routine. Eugene Burger says you should plough your own furrow. You decide what works for you.

Danny

Posted: Aug 24, 2012 3:47pm
Thought for the day. You create a presentation....it is a part of you, you like it and perform it three times on the same street corner. it bombs every time.

Do you change the act or change the audience?

Danny
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 02:56PM)
What?
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 24, 2012 03:07PM)
When it come so material that the magician has created,
John Calvert said this to me before he left,
"An amateur constantly changes his show, a Pro changes his audience."
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 03:22PM)
.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 24, 2012 03:40PM)
To clarify my post about what John Calvert said to me,
He meant that if you have created a magic piece of art and it comes from your heart,
Stay the artist and find an audience who will appreciate it, for what it is.
Don't "sell out" for the sake of a buck or a pat on the back.
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 24, 2012 03:43PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 14:30, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Eduardo,

I love the cups too, that's why I'm going crazy here. the cups are a brilliant tool, poetry when done right.

the greatest things is all the different equations and combinations that can be worked out....THAT NOBODY IS WORKING OUT ANYMORE!

lol

it's a great trick...

but alright already, know what I mean.

the 17 trillion other tricks in magic might be pretty good too you know.

thanks and please tell me how it goes and thanks for being so patient with me.
[/quote]

your welcome, maybe I send you a video in private... jajajajaja... by the way I meet one welsh old fellow (TAFFY as you call him) of you in Portugal by the easter time... great talk, and great guy...
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 03:50PM)
Wow,

you met taff super guy, I did a write up on him in the who's who of sidewalkperformers blog;

http://sidewalkperformerswhoswho.blogspot.ie/2009/04/taffy.html

Posted: Aug 24, 2012 4:52pm
I would love to watch the footaqe of you, thank you so much.

Posted: Aug 24, 2012 4:53pm
Devious,

great points and thanks for spelling it out for me. lol

I'm havin trouble understanding some of the posts.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Aug 24, 2012 03:54PM)
Ever see Beatle tribute bands/shows? They are fantastic musicians, but they each lack that special something that makes writers of hit songs, etc. They earn an honest living, audiences love it, etc.

MANY musicians look down on them. Why? Why should they even care what what they're doing? They'll give you reasons. But why even spend the energy thinking that way.
Do what you love, ignore everyone else.

When David Blaine had his first TV special and became a world wide phenom, MANY magicians slammed him because he was doing magic store tricks.

Want to be original, unique? Great. Someone sells their act on a dvd or book and you want to do it, go ahead. They gave the blessing when they sold it. Not everyone can be Paul McCartney or David Copperfield. Some people are stars, some can't be. If everyone was a millionaire, who would pick up the trash?

Just some food for thought from the sidelines of a former trash collector;-)
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 24, 2012 04:04PM)
Copying is a natural way of the learning process. don't blame the clones. painters and other artists for centuries copied their masters. and it take time to find themselves, sometimes they never find themselves.
Blame those shepherds who give bad learning materials such as dvds to their lambs, and worst, gave this materials to the penguins.

[quote]
On 2012-08-24 16:50, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Wow,

you met taff super guy, I did a write up on him in the who's who of sidewalkperformers blog;

http://sidewalkperformerswhoswho.blogspot.ie/2009/04/taffy.html
[/quote]
ya. I read it. I read all your blog Jimmy and book. you rock.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 24, 2012 04:08PM)
Somebody help me out here, what was it Dai Vernon said about you can't be a good magician until you do the cups & balls...did I get it right?

Sir Richard
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 24, 2012 04:12PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 17:08, Sir Richard wrote:
Somebody help me out here, what was it Dai Vernon said about you can't be a good magician until you do the cups & balls...did I get it right?

Sir Richard
[/quote]

I believe the old professor was rigth, cups and balls its like the solfa to the music in my view... vernon knew
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Aug 24, 2012 04:21PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 17:08, Sir Richard wrote:
Somebody help me out here, what was it Dai Vernon said about you can't be a good magician until you do the cups & balls...did I get it right?

Sir Richard
[/quote]

The Professor stated that the cups and balls contained all the elements of magic ( transpos, vanishes, etc. ).

Magicians use the patter that it was HOUDINI who said he considers no man to be a magician until he can adequately perform the Cups and Balls.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 04:37PM)
Yeah which one said your not a good magician until you copy a routine with the cups and balls I can't remember which guys was that?
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 24, 2012 04:42PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 17:37, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Yeah which one said your not a good magician until you copy a routine with the cups and balls I can't remember which guys was that?
[/quote]
I'm going to take a stab at that one Jimmy, was it "Peter Wardell"?
p.s. Zombie Magic is one of the "Good Guys".
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 04:48PM)
I know he is, I'm just on a rampage sorry.

Posted: Aug 24, 2012 5:58pm
The answer is none of them said it because it was obvious to those people it wasn't true. when did we become this mediocre? this is not the reputation of magicians.

lets defend settling for mediocre or a copy of mediocre. or forget it I'm just gonna get a job at mc donalds.

you know I'm getting a little tired after running around in here scream blatantly obvious things. I might jump out of here pretty soon. no offence.
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 24, 2012 05:09PM)
You will be back... and we will wait for you... me, and brother Devious, and Zombie... we love you... lets talk about magic wands... and chop cup... never mind...
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 24, 2012 05:12PM)
I know someones gonna take me seriously soon and get mad at me or somethin.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 24, 2012 05:31PM)
This reminds me of when I got into a fight with a certain "Dark Knight" on the pitch.
I tore off his hubcaps, bent his windshield wipers, and threw his license plates into the ocean.
He goes by the name, "Godfather of Magic".
[img]http://www.communication4all.co.uk/animated%20gifs/pirate_ninja_sword_fight_hg_clr.gif[/img]
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 24, 2012 05:38PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 18:12, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I know someones gonna take me seriously soon and get mad at me or somethin.
[/quote]

I supose you were refering to my last post! sorry Jimmy if it bothered you, you are the guys in magic I most respect... sometimes I have this silly stupid responses... but I'm just like that... it won't happen ever again...
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 24, 2012 05:41PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 18:31, Devious wrote:
This reminds me of when I got into a fight with a certain "Dark Knight" on the pitch.
I tore off his hubcaps, bent his windshield wipers, and threw his license plates into the ocean.
He goes by the name, "Godfather of Magic".
[img]http://www.communication4all.co.uk/animated%20gifs/pirate_ninja_sword_fight_hg_clr.gif[/img]
[/quote]

you are inspired as always...
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Aug 24, 2012 06:50PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 17:48, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I know he is, I'm just on a rampage sorry.
[/quote]

Jimmy, you're passionate and I love that. I'm only posting some thoughts because I'm trying to understand the art of the street ( I'm a wannabe, so take what I say with a grain of salt ).

Brother Devious, thank you for the kind words!
Message: Posted by: WilliamMckeehan (Aug 24, 2012 07:24PM)
I am glad I'm not the only one that noticed everyone doing the same cups and balls act. Makes me not want to use my 2 cup routine I been working on for a few years.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 24, 2012 07:56PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 20:24, WilliamMckeehan wrote:
I am glad I'm not the only one that noticed everyone doing the same cups and balls act. Makes me not want to use my 2 cup routine I been working on for a few years.
[/quote]
Do you mean to tell us that there are other magicians in Moriarity, New Mexico sir?
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Aug 24, 2012 08:00PM)
Jimmy T... I love your space between sentences... so easy to read. :cups:
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 24, 2012 09:16PM)
"A magician needs to work hard and become great."

"Is that what you do?"

"No, I'm already great."

Gazzo.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 24, 2012 10:06PM)
[img]http://i.saucesome.net/CdR.gif[/img]
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Aug 24, 2012 11:05PM)
I think I come to the Café just to see what the talented Devious does next!
Message: Posted by: WilliamMckeehan (Aug 25, 2012 12:19AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 20:56, Devious wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 20:24, WilliamMckeehan wrote:
I am glad I'm not the only one that noticed everyone doing the same cups and balls act. Makes me not want to use my 2 cup routine I been working on for a few years.
[/quote]
Do you mean to tell us that there are other magicians in Moriarity, New Mexico sir?
[/quote]


HAHA! You got me there! But there is really no one to perform for here! So I don't plan on staying!
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 25, 2012 02:34AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 20:24, WilliamMckeehan wrote:
I am glad I'm not the only one that noticed everyone doing the same cups and balls act. Makes me not want to use my 2 cup routine I been working on for a few years.
[/quote]

low self esteem??????
Message: Posted by: Yellowcustard (Aug 25, 2012 05:41AM)
I like this post for 3 resons,

Oh I mean 1, 2, 3, resons
or if your German 1! 2! 3!
Or if your greek I ii ii
Or American theres 1 thers,,,,,,

Jimmy you are spot on. Jimmy I was working on queen street in Auckland. There were two other magicians. One working with a table doing card and coins a nother doing rope and some comady stuff. I was doing rope and egg bag. £ magican diffrent style diffrent effects.

A guy stoped and spoke to me and asked if we all came from the same pace. I explained were all independts he was just blown away.
Message: Posted by: Scotty Walsh (Aug 25, 2012 05:51AM)
Right. Watching the routine line for line and move for move is a little like watching the 21 card trick. I can't do it anymore. I will make up an excuse or something, but I can't do it. I can't take the counting.

I worry there will be a day where I'll see the big cups and the bowler and the pouch and just move on -- and the guy will do something totally original.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 25, 2012 09:53AM)
I'm soooo glad that my performance is for non-magicians as opposed to fellow magicians, otherwise I might be worried.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 25, 2012 10:49AM)
Sir richard,

I'm sure you do a mean 21 card trick that makes the women cry and the men have dreams.

ever seen the marlo one, he made that trick fun...instead of like math class with a hang over.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 25, 2012 11:08AM)
Math class with a hang over?
Now that's a presentation!
It practically writes itself!!
Wonder how fast I could get it to market?
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 25, 2012 11:12AM)
I think everyone that has posted here on this thread is great and thank you so much for not gettin mad at me.

I was trying to give another side of the story...

I thought I would state the obvious....what we all used to believe....that magicians create magic shows.

the only reason so many people hadn't thought of these things that we all used to believe, is because they have been buying into all the "sell out" circular logic that seems to be the ONLY voice out there now.

it's great we have the magic Café to express ourselves.
Message: Posted by: TRUMPETMAN (Aug 25, 2012 12:19PM)
You are to be commended for striving to keep magic a performing "art".
Message: Posted by: WilliamMckeehan (Aug 25, 2012 12:26PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 03:34, Eduardo wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-24 20:24, WilliamMckeehan wrote:
I am glad I'm not the only one that noticed everyone doing the same cups and balls act. Makes me not want to use my 2 cup routine I been working on for a few years.
[/quote]
low self esteem?
[/quote]
That is probably the problem.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 25, 2012 12:29PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 11:49, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Sir richard,

I'm sure you do a mean 21 card trick that makes the women cry and the men have dreams.

ever seen the marlo one, he made that trick fun...instead of like math class with a hang over.
[/quote]Naaah! I've always hated that trick! However, thanks to the late Jim Cellini, I do a mean "Insurance Policy" trick! Hey, maybe we should all go after Gazzo since he shamelessly marketed his cups & balls routine. I mean you can buy a pouch, Gary Animal "Gazzo" cups, Bowler hats, everything, then learn how to do it on the DVD he sells, right? Maybe we should fire a few rounds at the perpetrator at the root of the problem, hmmm? Just a thought. (I really love stirring things up and bashing sacred cows...can you tell? You ought to have read all the flak I got on the "Coin Trickery" forum when I told them that I thought Mr. Tango's T.U.C. was "over rated and over priced," you'd of thought I'd spit on his mother or something.)

Here's a question, what kind of hats are those "copycats" getting? Just curious. BTW, I never signed a contract prior to learning magic stating that I'd devote myself exclusively to making my show an art form. And who says that I don't have a magic show anyway? Have you ever seen me perform?

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 25, 2012 12:56PM)
I'm sure your a great performer. I'm not after you sir richard, nor would I try. I'm sure your a great guy and I love opinionatd people and I'm sure your a great performer.

frankly I don't care what you do man. if you want to do the snapper routine right off the instructions have a ball man I don't care, no really. that's not my point. my point was about street guys all doing the gazzo routine as a finale and magicians not creating magic shows.

are you mad because you don't think magicians should bother trying to create magic shows or you theink they all should do gazzos show. I'm confused.

but I think I may have hit a nerve with you.

and if you think I should go around yes man-ing to every sell out money guy and not stick up for people trying to be artists, then yeah I hope I did rattle your cage....but I'm not sure this is the case here but I am confused.

no really I'm not pulling your leg I'm not sure what your goin on about or where I've gone wrong here.

Posted: Aug 25, 2012 2:14pm
I love the insurance policy it used to be a staple in my show when I was a lot younger, I got all the different ones on the market and began making my own.

I got fooled bad by that trick the first time I ever saw, an 80 year old magician sold that to me after doing a number on me with it. I saw it in a stack of stuff and asked what it was. now this was an old school place and you had to be a magician to shop there, so he said, "oh man, your supposed to know what that is...."and began his routine, but I didn't know it. he used his age to get me, his hands shook and he dropped cards and looked confused right up to the point I saw the giant print...i bought it that momment.

I would love to see someone close with that instead of that same cup routine.

yep a snapper, a spong bunnies, and close with the insurance policy, bravo anything at this point would show a little originality even if they were store bought instruction driven patter.

of course wouldn't it be better for the magician if his show stood out, because it was his creation instead of a magic shops creation.

Posted: Aug 25, 2012 2:17pm
Sorry I'll try and double space again, I've been forgetting
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 25, 2012 03:56PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 13:56, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I'm sure your a great performer. I'm not after you sir richard, nor would I try. I'm sure your a great guy and I love opinionatd people....and I'm sure your a great performer.

frankly I don't care what you do man. if you want to do the snapper routine right off the instructions have a ball man I don't care, no really. that's not my point. my point was about street guys all doing the gazzo routine as a finale......and magicians not creating magic shows.

are you mad because you don't think magicians should bother trying to create magic shows or you theink they all should do gazzos show. I'm confused.

but I think I may have hit a nerve with you.

and if you think I should go around yes man-ing to every sell out money guy and not stick up for people trying to be artists, then yeah I hope I did rattle your cage....but I'm not sure this is the case here but I am confused.

no really I'm not pulling your leg I'm not sure what your goin on about...or where I've gone wrong here.
[/quote]

I'm not mad Jimmy, I love discussing things like this because everybody can learn something. When I close with Rub-a-dub-dub, people remember it long afterwards! I get repeat business as a result. Where I live nobody, and I do mean nobody does cups and balls! Mostly they're card people. The thing that I think you may not realize is what you are expecting where you're at is going to be rare, most people are not that creative. Many of us have learned what we do from books and video media. We don't have you, Kozmo, a Tony Slydini or a Jim Cellini here to teach us, so we learn as best we can. I don't do the Vernon, Marlo, or Slydini cups & balls, and that's because everybody else in my club is doing a form of it. The only thing that changes is the final load. When I 1st saw Cellini doing C. & B. I went home and developed my own routine. It was totally lame! When I saw Bill Malone doing Rub-a-dub-dub I said to myself "I can do that!" And I have for several years now. It's a bit different than the norm.

Just remember, many of us are trying our best to become professional enough to get paid regularly at this so that we don't have to just do it on the side in addition to our "day job." There's no shame in making a living at magic. I play tournament quality Chess, but I'm no Bobby Fisher. He is credited for turning chess into an art form. I just play because I truly enjoy playing it. Every so often a prodigy shows up and all of the Chess guys are hoping they've got another Bobby Fisher in the making! Again, that's going to be a rare occurrence, not the norm. And that's what you want to see, a rare occurrence in magic/busking. When you do just remember that's not the norm. It never will be! Greatness always stands out because of the rarity & genius of the individual creating it in comparison to the mediocrity of the rest of us! I really hope to meet you some day as I think I could truly learn a lot from you. I respect a man who stands up for what he believes and doesn't back down! I hope you're the same kind of person!

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 25, 2012 04:28PM)
[quote]
When I 1st saw Cellini doing C. & B. I went home and developed my own routine. It was totally lame!
[/quote]

And sad to say that's where you stopped. You had a great beginning, being inspired and taking the first step. You allowed a first attempt that failed, that anyone worth their weight in onions would be expecting, to derail you, then take that fatal leap to "I can't".
Not only "I can't" but anyone else that does is, and I quote:
[quote]a rare occurrence, not the norm[/quote].

Simply not true. I agree that it should be more of an occurrence, more the norm, but more and more are being mentally defeated and accepting, "I can't". There are still plenty that don't though.

You should have seen my first attempt at a C&B routine. I would have been super duper happy with totally lame.
It was a drawn out story about a damsel in a castle and something about diamonds which were to be the final load. I was so focused on that load that everything else sucked. The load was great but couldn't save the atrocity of a nightmare bit. I learned a few things and applied them. Next time was better but started looking like all the others. Now my routine is honed, has zero 3 ball play, doesn't use pockets or a servante, gets right to the meat of the matter, floors folks, and is MINE. Am I through with it? Nope. The next step is to clean it up even more by using a little something that Mr. Gunn has inspired me to investigate.

The thrust of this post is that creating isn't difficult and it's what Magicians do. Learning from a book leads to the most creativity I think. Having a mentor helps with technique, knowledge, etc. but I don't see how one would increase your creativity. I could be wrong.

[quote]Just remember, many of us are trying our best to become professional enough to get paid regularly at this so that we don't have to just do it on the side in addition to our "day job." [/quote].
Take a step towards professionalism and say it with me now, "I can!".
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 25, 2012 05:13PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 17:28, FatHatter wrote:
[quote]
When I 1st saw Cellini doing C. & B. I went home and developed my own routine. It was totally lame!
[/quote]

And sad to say that's where you stopped. You had a great beginning, being inspired and taking the first step. You allowed a first attempt that failed, that anyone worth their weight in onions would be expecting, to derail you, then take that fatal leap to "I can't".
Not only "I can't" but anyone else that does is, and I quote:
[quote]a rare occurrence, not the norm[/quote].

Simply not true. I agree that it should be more of an occurrence, more the norm, but more and more are being mentally defeated and accepting, "I can't". There are still plenty that don't though.

You should have seen my first attempt at a C&B routine. I would have been super duper happy with totally lame.
It was a drawn out story about a damsel in a castle and something about diamonds which were to be the final load. I was so focused on that load that everything else sucked. The load was great but couldn't save the atrocity of a nightmare bit. I learned a few things and applied them. Next time was better but started looking like all the others. Now my routine is honed, has zero 3 ball play, doesn't use pockets or a servante, gets right to the meat of the matter, floors folks, and is MINE. Am I through with it? Nope. The next step is to clean it up even more by using a little something that Mr. Gunn has inspired me to investigate.

The thrust of this post is that creating isn't difficult and it's what Magicians do. Learning from a book leads to the most creativity I think. Having a mentor helps with technique, knowledge, etc. but I don't see how one would increase your creativity. I could be wrong.

[quote]Just remember, many of us are trying our best to become professional enough to get paid regularly at this so that we don't have to just do it on the side in addition to our "day job." [/quote].
Take a step towards professionalism and say it with me now, "I can!".
[/quote]It's not that "I can't," it's that I learned sometime back that you can't argue with success. You seem to think you're one of the better ones, and you well may be. However just look at how many magicians there are out there NOT being that creative compared to the relatively few that are! And by following what I'm doing I'm getting more bookings. Just got another one yesterday, as a matter of fact. You see the lay audience doesn't know where my routine comes from, only other magicians, and who cares what they think? They aren't paying my bills or booking my shows. 3 years ago I set my goals regarding what I'm doing, and I'm getting close to reaching the last one. Of course I don't use Gazzo's routine, but if I did it would kill as nobody around here has seen it! I am thinking about using David Regal's routine sometime in the future...you see, I only steal from the best! ;>)

p.s.; If it makes some on here feel better, most of my material is original, however there's just some stuff I think can't be topped!

p.p.s.; you wrote: "Take a step towards professionalism and say it with me now, "I can!". I already did when I saw Bill Malone doing rub-a-dub-dub! "I can & I did!"

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 25, 2012 07:06PM)
Fathatter,

bravo.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 25, 2012 07:28PM)
I think Fathatter really needs to Open his eyes!
[img]http://mrmikescomedy.com/resources/big%2Beyes.jpg[/img]

On second thought, Nevermind now I know why he keeps them closed.
Message: Posted by: Jim Sparx (Aug 25, 2012 07:47PM)
Where can I get a pair of those glasses?
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 25, 2012 08:21PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 20:47, spartacus wrote:
Where can I get a pair of those glasses?
[/quote]
Make you own glasses with your art.

Posted: Aug 25, 2012 9:28pm
This post is great and inspiring. unfortunately there are some things I did not understand by language barrier.
Good Sunday to everybody.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 25, 2012 08:39PM)
Yeah, I know Art lets see, there was Art Linkletter, Art Godfrey, Art Miller, Art Garfunckle!

Sir Richard.

Posted: Aug 25, 2012 9:44pm
Madhatter, I don't understand, why would you think that I want to emulate you? I'm confused. If what I'm doing is working why change it? That goes against the laws of success. When I was in the insurance business, I out-produced most of the other agents in the office by learning my "performance" word for word and never deviating. I believe you when you say that what you're doing is working, but the same holds true for me. I'm sorry that some of you don't understand that. I don't know but the phrase "magician police" keeps creeping into my mind.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 25, 2012 08:44PM)
Madhatter, I don't understand, why would you think that I want to emulate you? I'm confused. If what I'm doing is working why change it? That goes against the laws of success. When I was in the insurance business, I out-produced most of the other agents in the office by learning my "performance" word for word and never deviating. I believe you when you say that what you're doing is working, but the same holds true for me. I'm sorry that some of you don't understand that. I don't know but the phrase "magician police" keeps creeping into my mind.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 25, 2012 08:48PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 21:39, Sir Richard wrote:
Yeah, I know Art lets see, there was Art Linkletter, Art Godfrey, Art Miller, Art Garfunckle!

Sir Richard.
[/quote]
That some great stuff to your show.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 25, 2012 08:50PM)
I just have one question,
Do you really go by "Sir Richard" during your normal duties and errands?

If you answer in the affirmative, it's going to open up a whole slew of questions.

p.s. I believe he goes by [b]Fathatter[/b] not Madhatter,[i]Sir[/i].
Some folks think I have a "Fat Head" so I guess I could go by Fat Header, Hmmmm?
[img]http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/42/42273/ad_sir_lancelot_vol_4.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Aug 26, 2012 12:43AM)
I hear your pain Jimmy ... but again ... your success is based on what you do, not what anyone else does.

I would stop worrying about other people and stay focused on yourself; when you focus on what other people are doing, you lose focus on what you are doing.

Besides ... not everyone on the sidewalk is cloning Gazzo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF5g3vgNoCY

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: Scotty Walsh (Aug 26, 2012 01:48AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 11:49, jimmy talksalot wrote:

ever seen the marlo one, he made that trick fun...instead of like math class with a hang over.
[/quote]

Yup. Racherbaumer fried me with that at Bennigan's, and was compassionate enough to teach it to me. That is some more outside the box thinking! I'm not talking about that trick. You know the one I'm talking about. The counting! The counting!
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 26, 2012 03:40AM)
I'm with fathatter on this one.

we aren't selling insurance any more, different job.

I can't clean the bathroom and expect applause from the stage because it worked as a janiter.

nobody cares weather you do this, but we thought it friendly to tell you the correct way.

by the way the police would never tell you to be more creative and original.

do what you want, I don't care if you do it wrong I just want to get the message out how to do it right.

your generation is showing I might add.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 26, 2012 08:35AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 21:48, Eduardo wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 21:39, Sir Richard wrote:
Yeah, I know Art...lets see, there was Art Linkletter, Art Godfrey, Art Miller, Art Garfunckle....!

Sir Richard.
[/quote]

That some great stuff to your show...
[/quote]Like I said, I do comedy, you don't know the half of what my show is like. But it works really well.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 26, 2012 08:36AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 21:50, Devious wrote:
I just have one question,
Do you really go by "Sir Richard" during your normal duties and errands?

If you answer in the affirmative, it's going to open up a whole slew of questions.

p.s. I believe he goes by [b]Fathatter[/b] not Madhatter,[i]Sir[/i].
Some folks think I have a "Fat Head" so I guess I could go by Fat Header, Hmmmm?
[img]http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/42/42273/ad_sir_lancelot_vol_4.jpg[/img]
[/quote]Do you do the dame with "Devious?"

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 26, 2012 08:39AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-26 04:40, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I'm with fathatter on this one.

we aren't selling insurance any more, different job.

I can't clean the bathroom and expect applause from the stage because it worked as a janiter.

nobody cares weather you do this, but we thought it friendly to tell you the correct way.

by the way the police would never tell you to be more creative and original.

do what you want, I don't care if you do it wrong I just want to get the message out how to do it right.

your generation is showing I might add.
[/quote]Wrong Jimmy! The Sales principles are the same no matter what you sell, and you are selling sir! You're selling your show every time you busk. You're trying to sell people here on the idea that "Gazzo's C & B" is overdone. You should study up on Zig Ziglar's CDs on Sales, they could really help you!

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 26, 2012 09:31AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-26 09:36, Sir Richard wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 21:50, Devious wrote:
I just have one question,
Do you really go by "Sir Richard" during your normal duties and errands?
If you answer in the affirmative, it's going to open up a whole slew of questions.
[/quote]Do you do the dame with "Devious?"

Sir Richard.
[/quote]

I was referring to the [b]SIR[/b] part not the Richard part in case you missed it.

Yes, I have been known to do dames, whilst they call me Devious.

[img]http://blogdotbookbytedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/tumblr_m81efoicir1r927dro1_500-gif.jpg[/img]
Since you asked and may not know what Devious means, here goes;

I was given the monicker ~Devious~ by Michael Close after playing many practical jokes
during a S.A.M. Convention many years back. The magicians at the event kept calling
me that and it just sort of stuck, thanks for giving me an opportunity to share that.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 26, 2012 09:38AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-26 10:31, Devious wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-26 09:36, Sir Richard wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-25 21:50, Devious wrote:
I just have one question,
Do you really go by "Sir Richard" during your normal duties and errands?

If you answer in the affirmative, it's going to open up a whole slew of questions.

p.s. I believe he goes by [b]Fathatter[/b] not Madhatter,[i]Sir[/i].
Some folks think I have a "Fat Head" so I guess I could go by Fat Header, Hmmmm?
[img]http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/42/42273/ad_sir_lancelot_vol_4.jpg[/img]
[/quote]Do you do the dame with "Devious?"

Sir Richard.
[/quote]

I was referring to the [b]SIR[/b] part not the Richard part in case you missed it.

Yes, I have been known to do dames, whilst they call me Devious.

I was given the monicker ~Devious~ by Michael Close after playing many practical jokes
during a S.A.M. Convention many years back. The magicians at the event kept calling
me that and it just sort of stuck, thanks for giving me an opportunity to share that.
[/quote]1st, "madhatter" was a typo, my apologies. 2nd, no I don't go by SIR Richard anyplace but in performance. My real name lacks the "zing" I felt that it needed in show business. My last name is unpronounceable to most people and this seems to work better. I got the idea from a hair stylist/barber we have here in town who's name is Larry, but his business is called "Sir Lawrence." Besides, Jimmy Tals-a-lot and Devious were already taken. ;)
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Aug 26, 2012 10:23AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-26 10:31, Devious wrote:

I was given the monicker ~Devious~ by Michael Close after playing many practical jokes
during a S.A.M. Convention many years back. The magicians at the event kept calling
me that and it just sort of stuck, thanks for giving me an opportunity to share that.
[/quote]

What a great story! Thanks for sharing that. I always wanted to ask you...now I know!!
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 26, 2012 10:57AM)
I was in sales for years I already know about zig ziglar and I've been to umpteen sales course, this is theater and being a magician, which zig didn't teach.

this is exactly what I'm talking about, theater is not a gimmick to extract money out of people it's an experience for the sake of the experience. sure there's money involved in "show BUSINESS", but that's missing the whole point.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 26, 2012 12:21PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-26 11:57, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I was in sales for years I already know about zig ziglar and I've been to umpteen sales course, this is theater and being a magician, which zig didn't teach.

this is exactly what I'm talking about, theater is not a gimmick to extract money out of people it's an experience for the sake of the experience. sure there's money involved in "show BUSINESS", but that's missing the whole point.
[/quote]You're still in sales Jimmy, maybe not for money, but sales just the same. And if you don't think theater and sales is the same you're wrong. When I was selling insurance somebody asked me If I was ever going to get out of it. I replied "What? And give up show business?" We have our presentation (patter), our location (pitch) which usually was a kitchen table; and "hat lines...ergo "closing"...asking for the money! Maybe the point for you isn't the money but you can't speak for every other magician. I don't see David Copperfield as a pauper! On his DVD Kozmo flatly stated that he had to make enough money for his family to replace the income he willingly gave up when he left his job at MIT. Try and get Bill Malone to do a gig "Pro Bono"...it ain't gonna happen.

Now I realize that the whole point of this thread was about all of the "Gazzo Clones" out there busking and doing a poor job copying Gazzo's every move and gag, and if you'll wander back to where I 1st started you'll see that I agreed with you. However if what I'm doing works for me then I'd be an idiot to quit doing it. Just sayin'....

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 26, 2012 01:00PM)
I'll talk money guy speak for you then. we are not talking about the sale end, but the QUALITY PRODUCT end. when your desinging a car and putiing it together on the assembly line, your not selling it at that moment, your working on quality control. and that's what I'm talking about.

if your busy trying to sell it while your making it, there's gonna be a quality control problem. I learned zig, you learn theater speak.

Posted: Aug 26, 2012 2:02pm
And I think I'm done here. if you want to sell amway and call it your magic show I don't care.

bye.
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Aug 26, 2012 02:10PM)
I'm just gonna start by saying I've only been doing magic for about 3 years, and I'm not very creative or original, most of the times I've attempted to create something failed miserably, with the exception of a couple card tricks, so I'm not great at creating magic, but this is my view on it.

I saw a youtube video the other day of a guy doing a silent cups and balls on the street, it was pretty cool, he probably got the idea of doing it silent from Teller, but at least he wasn't copying Gazzo like nearly every other video on youtube does. I personally like Gazzo, he does what he does, it's entertaining, and he apparently gets away with his incredibly open loading method, probably by the amount of talking he does, I'm not sure. but he gets the job done and he's funny, even knowing how it's done I enjoy his performance, but I can't say the same about all of his imitators haha. often times the problem is not only that they copy his routine, but that they copy it badly, they're not nearly as ballsy as Gazzo and it doesn't work for them.

I'm still working on my cups and balls routine but I don't see the point in copying his routine. seriously, for what I think was like 10 bux on ebay I got a set of plastic cups with a DVD teaching slieghts from magic makers, then my friend found a small book on it he gave to me, I know all the slieghts Gazzo uses, which clearly is enough to create a good routine, so why, with all of the material available so cheap, do people need to copy Gazzo's presentation? learn the stuff and then make it your own. I do like a couple of Gazzo's jokes tho, and might have to throw one in, because lets be real, the bit about the numbers being printed on the bottom of the ball is completely genius.

I personally don't see the need for a giant pouch so I can load six oranges and a mellon, why milk the cow for two gallons when you only need half a pint to make your cereal? I can put on a pair of baggy Cargo jean shorts and fit 4 pool balls in my pocket without them being a problem, and I don't have to look like an idiot wearing an oversized fanny pack, (no word on how I look wearing jean shorts after the 90's). I'm not gonna pretend I'm not gonna be influenced by Gazzo a little bit, I probably will, I love his act, but if my routine looks like a gazzo knock off then I've probaby failed.

P.S. I typed all of this and more at like 4am then the site decided to update or something and I lost it all, this is the bits I remember being thrown back together trying to get on the same train of thought I had then haha. oh, and does anybody know how to set down a pool ball load without making a thunk and without using a padded table? I'm sure it can be done, I just don't know how.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 26, 2012 03:33PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-26 14:02, jimmy talksalot wrote:
And I think I'm done here. if you want to sell amway and call it your magic show I don't care.

bye.
[/quote](confused)What's wrong with Amway?

[quote]
On 2012-08-26 14:00, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I'll talk money guy speak for you then.

we are not talking about the sale end, but the QUALITY PRODUCT end.

when your desinging a car and putiing it together on the assembly line, your not selling it at that moment, your working on quality control.

and that's what I'm talking about.

if your busy trying to sell it while your making it, there's gonna be a quality control problem.

I learned zig, you learn theater speak.
[/quote]Two halves of the same whole. Yes, I want to get paid for performing, my wife and I have our shameless additions, like a roof over our head and food on the table. So I guess in the end I'm just a shameless wh*re. And for the record I don't have a quality control problem. Did you miss all the times when I said that it was working? BTW, you've never seen me perform so you're not qualified to have an opinion on my show. I also asked several questions which you never answered. I'll just end here by saying "break a leg!"
[quote]
On 2012-08-26 15:10, Gary T. wrote:
I'm just gonna start by saying I've only been doing magic for about 3 years, and I'm not very creative or original, most of the times I've attempted to create something failed miserably, with the exception of a couple card tricks, so I'm not great at creating magic, but this is my view on it.

I saw a youtube video the other day of a guy doing a silent cups and balls on the street, it was pretty cool, he probably got the idea of doing it silent from Teller, but at least he wasn't copying Gazzo like nearly every other video on youtube does. I personally like Gazzo, he does what he does, it's entertaining, and he apparently gets away with his incredibly open loading method, probably by the amount of talking he does, I'm not sure. but he gets the job done and he's funny, even knowing how it's done I enjoy his performance, but I can't say the same about all of his imitators haha. often times the problem is not only that they copy his routine, but that they copy it badly, they're not nearly as ballsy as Gazzo and it doesn't work for them.

I'm still working on my cups and balls routine but I don't see the point in copying his routine. seriously, for what I think was like 10 bux on ebay I got a set of plastic cups with a DVD teaching slieghts from magic makers, then my friend found a small book on it he gave to me, I know all the slieghts Gazzo uses, which clearly is enough to create a good routine, so why, with all of the material available so cheap, do people need to copy Gazzo's presentation? learn the stuff and then make it your own. I do like a couple of Gazzo's jokes tho, and might have to throw one in, because lets be real, the bit about the numbers being printed on the bottom of the ball is completely genius.

I personally don't see the need for a giant pouch so I can load six oranges and a mellon, why milk the cow for two gallons when you only need half a pint to make your cereal? I can put on a pair of baggy Cargo jean shorts and fit 4 pool balls in my pocket without them being a problem, and I don't have to look like an idiot wearing an oversized fanny pack, (no word on how I look wearing jean shorts after the 90's). I'm not gonna pretend I'm not gonna be influenced by Gazzo a little bit, I probably will, I love his act, but if my routine looks like a gazzo knock off then I've probaby failed.

P.S. I typed all of this and more at like 4am then the site decided to update or something and I lost it all, this is the bits I remember being thrown back together trying to get on the same train of thought I had then haha. oh, and does anybody know how to set down a pool ball load without making a thunk and without using a padded table? I'm sure it can be done, I just don't know how.
[/quote]Right on! I also enjoy watching Gazzo, he really cracks me up, but I'm not him! If I tried to do his act using all the jabs he does I'd get lynched! Good luck on the billard balls. You'll just have to learn to set them down oh so gently. :)

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Mormo Zine (Aug 26, 2012 07:39PM)
I always thought someone should do a cups and buds act. Not on the street of course though.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Aug 26, 2012 08:35PM)
I think what the problem here is that there are 3 types of street magicians.

1. Good magicians with bad sales skills.

2. Bad magicians with good sales skills.

3. Good magicians with good sales skills.

Now, when I say good or bad magician, I am not talking about just your CHOPS, I am talking about your ability to entertain an audience and your Chops. Otherwise I would have to make several more categories.

We won't talk about the first category at all. We will only discuss the second two. A good salesman can sell anything. It doesn't matter if it is crap. He may not get repeat business but why does it matter if he is a bad magician that is selling something to people in a tourist area where he is very unlikely to see the same people twice?

A good magician with good sales skills will be uber successful no matter where he is. He will get repeat business and he will have people like him because he sold them a quality product.

There are plenty of "entertainers" who do not write their own material both magical and otherwise. There are many singers whose songs are written by someone else, there are many actors and comedians who don't write there own material. There are magicians like David Copperfield and Chriss Angel who have teams that write material for them.

Think about it, Magic is one of the HARDEST entertaining arts that exists. The reason is that you don't just have to learn magic, you also have to learn acting, comedy, entertaining, etc. If you add to this the requirement that the Magician also has to be a successful writer, there just wouldn't be very many Magicians in the world. There are so few people that can do all of that it's just not likely that many would succeed.

I like to make things my own. I try, but I can't always do it. Not perfectly. I strive to create my own material, but Jimmy, you can probably agree that when you first take something to the streets, 3 months later it will likely not look anything like what you took out the first day, not the patter, jokes, or even the magic. It takes time and effort to create a successful routine. Most people just can't or won't do it.
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Aug 27, 2012 03:21AM)
Yesterday I saw a most impressive C&B display by Paul in Covent Garden. Nothing like Gazzo's, VERY clever and a real joy to watch. How he keeps his loads organised heaven only knows. Wonderful!

As for me I think I will put my act on here for you guys to throw rocks at.....and I don't mean that in a bad way. I think the feedback will be interesting/useful. Some of it may hurt....but that doesn't mean it will be wrong!

Me - I'm still striving. Thank goodness busking is not my day job....the roof over my head would be long gone. I think I could make more begging!

Danny
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 27, 2012 11:02AM)
[quote]It's not that "I can't," it's that I learned sometime back that you can't argue with success.[/quote]

I apologize for my mistake. It's not you can't it's you won't. IMHO that's even worse. You're cheating yourself and your audience.

[quote]You seem to think you're one of the better ones, and you well may be.[/quote]
If doing what a Magician should do makes me a "better one" then OK, I'll take that yolk.


[quote]However just look at how many magicians there are out there NOT being that creative compared to the relatively few that are! [/quote]
That's the point Sir. Look at how many there are! Doing my part not to be one of them. Trying to get the word out to others about the dark side and how it corrupts. Yes, Dark Side & Corruption. Would be a great name for a band with a female lead, lol.



[quote]And by following what I'm doing I'm getting more bookings. Just got another one yesterday, as a matter of fact.[/quote]
This is the rub right here. I don't get bookings. I don't solicit bookings. I don't even want bookings. I'm what they call a busker these days, a street performers if you will, a traveling theurgist if you won't. I go out and perform I don't sell tickets. Those that are attracted to my show see it, enjoy it (for the most part), and compensate me accordingly. My job is to be true to myself and my audience. They know the real deal when they see it. Even if it's not a highly polished deal they know it's real. I perform this way because I've had enough of corporate B.S. and commercial crap. This is where I'm coming from.
Do you busk Sir? Go out and do a show pro bono, draw your own audience, keep them & entertain them, watch some walk away, deal with law enforcement, deal with social environment, deal with weather, etc. ?

You wrote about meeting your goals. Do any of them have anything to do with busking?
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 27, 2012 11:12AM)
FatHatter,

bravo and thank you.

brilliant.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 27, 2012 12:18PM)
Thank you Jimmy for all you've done getting the word out. Was teetering on the edge when you entered my knowledge base and made all the difference. I'm happier, the magic is better, there are more smiles, and it's not troublesome. TPS reports are troublesome.
Message: Posted by: Stperformer (Aug 27, 2012 12:25PM)
I'm going to jump in here and add something I think is very very very important.
I qualify myself as being out there for a very long time, you'll just have to trust me in that.

Saying you are doing it for the sake of Art is in the right direction...but you have a ways to go yet.

After so so much time I realized that what is the most important thing in Street Theatre (for me) is the effect I have on the people watching my show. What I do is rather irrelevant...whether it be the cups & balls or whatever. It the charm, the wit, the drama, the humour....the ability to put it all together such that the person leaving my show has been affected in a possitive way. And in order to do that you need to be sincere in your actions and presentation.

You accomplish this, and your hats will end up being way beyond the money guys, while being somewhat more artistic than many of the 'artists'.

It's a very hard thing to describe unless you witness what I'm talking about...and there's very very few that have achieved this. But in my honest opinion, when you are able to have an emotional impact on the audience......that is the ultimate. What you do to get there, well that's totally up to you.

Hope this makes some sort of sense, Jimmy, as it's probably the most sincere and truest post I've made :)
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Aug 27, 2012 12:45PM)
When life gives you the Cups & Balls. Use the Chop Cup. Or better yet come up with a new way of doing it that appears different. For my, as an example, I do not let the balls penatrate the cups. The cups *hint hint* serve as a "teleportation device" that allowes the balls to transport from cup to cup in a ball across routine with many twists and turns in the plot that I will not discuss here for the integrity of my routine. But you get the idea.

Posted: Aug 27, 2012 1:46pm
I have yet to come across this problem, however I understand the concern.
Message: Posted by: fireperformer911 (Aug 27, 2012 01:09PM)
Stperformer

THANKS BEST POST YET!!!!
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Aug 27, 2012 01:56PM)
Surely there is a middle ground? I have put an act together. It is true to me, I am in a way proud of it as I put myself into it. But Having trialed it (as a brand new no nothing busker) if I had to rely on it to feed my family they would starve. Sir Richard says that a lot of his act is original. He says that he has a positive impact on his audiences and that he is rebooked, so we are not talking here of someone who is saying I will never create new material, or put my own spin on. We are talkign about someone who has mixed and matched to create a show that suits him and his audience.

Artistic integrity is all well and good. I plan to get better and keep true to myself (and I think Sir R does too) but if it was hold to some lofty ideal or starve then the lofty ideal can go hang. I'll work it AFTER there is food on the table.

Probably not winning nay friends here but well, I don't see anything much as black or white.

Love and blessings to all cantankerous b****** God knows a fire in the belly is good from time to time! :)

Danny
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 27, 2012 01:57PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 13:25, Stperformer wrote:
I'm going to jump in here and add something I think is very very very important.
I qualify myself as being out there for a very long time, you'll just have to trust me in that.

Saying you are doing it for the sake of Art is in the right direction...but you have a ways to go yet.

After so so much time I realized that what is the most important thing in Street Theatre (for me) is the effect I have on the people watching my show. What I do is rather irrelevant...whether it be the cups & balls or whatever. It the charm, the wit, the drama, the humour....the ability to put it all together such that the person leaving my show has been affected in a possitive way. And in order to do that you need to be sincere in your actions and presentation.

You accomplish this, and your hats will end up being way beyond the money guys, while being somewhat more artistic than many of the 'artists'.

It's a very hard thing to describe unless you witness what I'm talking about...and there's very very few that have achieved this. But in my honest opinion, when you are able to have an emotional impact on the audience......that is the ultimate. What you do to get there, well that's totally up to you.

Hope this makes some sort of sense, Jimmy, as it's probably the most sincere and truest post I've made :)
[/quote]

Now we know you are good, charming, etc... I always like to hear this from the first person... congratulations...
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Aug 27, 2012 01:59PM)
No nothing? I meant know nothing. My English goes from bad to worse. Arrgh!
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 27, 2012 02:06PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 13:25, Stperformer wrote:

After so so much time I realized that what is the most important thing in Street Theatre (for me) is the effect I have on the people watching my show. What I do is rather irrelevant...whether it be the cups & balls or whatever. It the charm, the wit, the drama, the humour....the ability to put it all together such that the person leaving my show has been affected in a possitive way. And in order to do that you need to be sincere in your actions and presentation.

[/quote]

EXACTLY! That's just perfect.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 27, 2012 02:24PM)
Stperformer,

so perfectly put it sounded like poetry, thank you.

and like you said, about being on the right track, that was what I was trying to do here, for some of the folks I felt weren't, but your absolutely 100% correct.

if the worker can grasp this he will master his work or at least be proud of what he is doing.

I've said to much you put it perfectly.

thank you so much for chiming in.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 27, 2012 02:26PM)
This is the kinda stuff, that keeps me from giving up here on the forums. thank you again.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 27, 2012 05:27PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 12:12, jimmy talksalot wrote:
FatHatter,

bravo and thank you.

brilliant.
[/quote]After watching Jimmy on you tube yesterday, I realized that busking is not for me. I personally like bookings. No weather problems usually, no threats from thieves trying to steal your cash, and no costume that makes you look like a destitute homeless person. Ya all have a good one, ya hear?
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 27, 2012 06:07PM)
Lol.

thank you...finally.
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (Aug 27, 2012 10:08PM)
I think the miscommunication that is occurring here is a function of the fact that Jimmy & Sir Richard have different definitions of what it means to be a successful performer.
Based on what I've read, I come to the following conclusion:
Jimmy believes that success as a performer is predicated on his ability to create an act that has artistic merit; that there the show has originality and that it reflects the performer's uniqueness to his audience.
Sir Richard believes that you can perform any piece of prefabricated material so long as "it's working"; meaning that audiences enjoy it, and that the performer is making money from it.
If I misrepresented either one of you, I apologize. Please correct me.
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Aug 27, 2012 11:48PM)
There have been a few great posts on here, and there have been many (far too many) posts with the same repeated message.

Two of the posts that stick out the most in my mind is that from Master Payne earlier in this thread, and the post from Stperformer above on this page, and two from Jimmy that I will get to later.

Many wise magicians will tell you that we must "imitate in order to innovate", and others will spout "Innovate, not imitate". Well, in my own opinion, for what it is worth, I believe that you must imitate in order to innovate. It is part of the learning process. That is how you learn to speak, that is how you learn to write, that is how you learn to ride a bicycle. However, all of that means absolutely nothing if you do not learn anything from the imitations. Without learning, there can be no innovation. If E. A. Poe did not learn more words by reading and writing after he learned how to speak by imitating his parents, teachers, etc., would he have been such a great and grand poet? Or if you prefer, think of that in terms of Shakespeare or Marlowe. Imitation is fine as a beginner or amateur for the purpose of learning, but so long as you keep on imitating and never forge your own paths of creativity toward originality, you will never be anything more than an amateur/beginner.

One of the posts that Jimmy made that sticks out to me was his question of why magicians do not create something of their own devices. In answer to that, as a few others have stated in so many words, is that nobody in this day and age wants to work. Everything must be instant and/or handed to them on a silver platter in its proper, polished and finite state of being, or else is no good, nor is it worthy of any of their precious time. You will hear plenty of excuses, and they are just that. It all comes down to people not wanting to work, and that is not just in the art of magic either.

The second post from Jimmy mentioned that in the 'old days' (sic) of magic, it was very hard to break into the business, though there were indeed hacks back then too. It is kind of funny because even at my young age, I remember growing up and going to a certain that-which-will-remain-nameless magic shop, and before the owner would even let me buy (or rather, my parents purchase for me, the 7 year old) anything, I had to read a certain book and practice 'x' from said book. I returned two weeks later after much practice and then I was told I had more to learn before I could make a purchase. Anyway, I had to earn the right to purchase certain items in the shop by gradually progressing to demonstrable knowledge and skill, and then I was allowed to purchase items at that level. Nobody does that anymore but that was how it was during the age of which Jimmy speaks - you had to earn your way in. To wit, there is a story about a famous magician visiting a town to perform his big illusion and magic show. After the show, a young boy approached the magician and told him, "I know hundreds of tricks, and I learned them all in a year. How many do you know"? The magician looked at him, smiled and said, "I know just three, and they have taken me a lifetime to learn".

As for the post by Stperformer, BRAVO! Is the installation of passion, emotion, thought-provocation and satisfaction what we, as magicians and the creators of the wonderous and purveyors of the mysterious, strive to do? I would get absolutely no satisfaction out of performing magic if at least one of my audience members did not leave without feeling one of those things. That is what magic is all about. In the words of the great master, Shimada, "Magic is not tricks...it is a way". As an actor, your job in playing a role is to make people believe the role and believe that the character is real. As a magician, your job is to make people experience (read: feel) the magic.
Message: Posted by: Octopus Sun (Aug 28, 2012 12:02AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-26 20:39, Mormo Zine wrote:
I always thought someone should do a cups and buds act. Not on the street of course though.
[/quote]
I did at this at the dispensary I worked for in Nederland, CO played around at night in the OBM
for patients, problem is crushing that goodness as one works the final loads
ended with a loaded chilum passed to patients
not easy, and legal too.
no I don't do Gazzo or Vernon.
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 28, 2012 06:50AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 12:02, FatHatter wrote:
[quote]It's not that "I can't," it's that I learned sometime back that you can't argue with success.[/quote]

I apologize for my mistake. It's not you can't it's you won't. IMHO that's even worse. You're cheating yourself and your audience.

[quote]You seem to think you're one of the better ones, and you well may be.[/quote]
If doing what a Magician should do makes me a "better one" then OK, I'll take that yolk.


[quote]However just look at how many magicians there are out there NOT being that creative compared to the relatively few that are! [/quote]
That's the point Sir. Look at how many there are! Doing my part not to be one of them. Trying to get the word out to others about the dark side and how it corrupts. Yes, Dark Side & Corruption. Would be a great name for a band with a female lead, lol.



[quote]And by following what I'm doing I'm getting more bookings. Just got another one yesterday, as a matter of fact.[/quote]
This is the rub right here. I don't get bookings. I don't solicit bookings. I don't even want bookings. I'm what they call a busker these days, a street performers if you will, a traveling theurgist if you won't. I go out and perform I don't sell tickets. Those that are attracted to my show see it, enjoy it (for the most part), and compensate me accordingly. My job is to be true to myself and my audience. They know the real deal when they see it. Even if it's not a highly polished deal they know it's real. I perform this way because I've had enough of corporate B.S. and commercial crap. This is where I'm coming from.
Do you busk Sir? Go out and do a show pro bono, draw your own audience, keep them & entertain them, watch some walk away, deal with law enforcement, deal with social environment, deal with weather, etc. ?

You wrote about meeting your goals. Do any of them have anything to do with busking?
[/quote]

you don't like the fat checks???? I love busking but if I have to wear the expensive suit to get the check I won't look back...
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 28, 2012 06:51AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 23:08, RiffRaff wrote:
I think the miscommunication that is occurring here is a function of the fact that Jimmy & Sir Richard have different definitions of what it means to be a successful performer.
Based on what I've read, I come to the following conclusion:
Jimmy believes that success as a performer is predicated on his ability to create an act that has artistic merit; that there the show has originality and that it reflects the performer's uniqueness to his audience.
Sir Richard believes that you can perform any piece of prefabricated material so long as "it's working"; meaning that audiences enjoy it, and that the performer is making money from it.
If I misrepresented either one of you, I apologize. Please correct me.
[/quote]RiffRaff, that's an over-simplification. I do start out with "Pre-fabricated" magic, as did everybody else on this forum at one time or another. However, most have transposed into something else. Some things however, need to stay the same.

Sir Richard.
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 00:48, Dr_J_Ayala wrote:
There have been a few great posts on here, and there have been many (far too many) posts with the same repeated message.

Two of the posts that stick out the most in my mind is that from Master Payne earlier in this thread, and the post from Stperformer above on this page, and two from Jimmy that I will get to later.

Many wise magicians will tell you that we must "imitate in order to innovate", and others will spout "Innovate, not imitate". Well, in my own opinion, for what it is worth, I believe that you must imitate in order to innovate. It is part of the learning process. That is how you learn to speak, that is how you learn to write, that is how you learn to ride a bicycle. However, all of that means absolutely nothing if you do not learn anything from the imitations. Without learning, there can be no innovation. If E. A. Poe did not learn more words by reading and writing after he learned how to speak by imitating his parents, teachers, etc., would he have been such a great and grand poet? Or if you prefer, think of that in terms of Shakespeare or Marlowe. Imitation is fine as a beginner or amateur for the purpose of learning, but so long as you keep on imitating and never forge your own paths of creativity toward originality, you will never be anything more than an amateur/beginner.

One of the posts that Jimmy made that sticks out to me was his question of why magicians do not create something of their own devices. In answer to that, as a few others have stated in so many words, is that nobody in this day and age wants to work. Everything must be instant and/or handed to them on a silver platter in its proper, polished and finite state of being, or else is no good, nor is it worthy of any of their precious time. You will hear plenty of excuses, and they are just that. It all comes down to people not wanting to work, and that is not just in the art of magic either.

The second post from Jimmy mentioned that in the 'old days' (sic) of magic, it was very hard to break into the business, though there were indeed hacks back then too. It is kind of funny because even at my young age, I remember growing up and going to a certain that-which-will-remain-nameless magic shop, and before the owner would even let me buy (or rather, my parents purchase for me, the 7 year old) anything, I had to read a certain book and practice 'x' from said book. I returned two weeks later after much practice and then I was told I had more to learn before I could make a purchase. Anyway, I had to earn the right to purchase certain items in the shop by gradually progressing to demonstrable knowledge and skill, and then I was allowed to purchase items at that level. Nobody does that anymore but that was how it was during the age of which Jimmy speaks - you had to earn your way in. To wit, there is a story about a famous magician visiting a town to perform his big illusion and magic show. After the show, a young boy approached the magician and told him, "I know hundreds of tricks, and I learned them all in a year. How many do you know"? The magician looked at him, smiled and said, "I know just three, and they have taken me a lifetime to learn".

As for the post by Stperformer, BRAVO! Is the installation of passion, emotion, thought-provocation and satisfaction what we, as magicians and the creators of the wonderous and purveyors of the mysterious, strive to do? I would get absolutely no satisfaction out of performing magic if at least one of my audience members did not leave without feeling one of those things. That is what magic is all about. In the words of the great master, Shimada, "Magic is not tricks...it is a way". As an actor, your job in playing a role is to make people believe the role and believe that the character is real. As a magician, your job is to make people experience (read: feel) the magic.
[/quote]So, have you ever seen me perform?

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 28, 2012 07:25AM)
What a thread, yes it has been beaten out before but for the first time this one I was really interested to read for the most part.

First off I want to appalled Jimmy for steeping out as he has done, well done Sir my hat is off to you!

I am going to keep this as brief as I can.
Speaking as a Magcian who performs Cup and Balls and who has made it his aim to have an original take on the C&B I can say honestly this is a hard path to walk!

First I was performing Circus, Juggling fire, THEN during the 80 perhaps you remember their was Circus fever through out the World. Circus shops sprang up every where and jugglers where on every street corner and still are. I thought stuff this so I moved on to escapes, then during the 90 every where escape acts sprang up every where
I thought to my self stuff this I want something different LOL, I know CUPS AND BALL LOL some more! Starting with the instructions from a box, then studying Cellini I then went on a Gazzo master class.
I learnt a lot about C&B but I still longed to have my own take on it!

Dare to be different

This has been a long tough uphill path to walk and now I am getting their.
The flack one can receive for choosing to be different is a joke.

I use china cups, I have a collection of copper cups but in my show china.
Over and over again oh that not right, a Magician cant afford cheap props bla, bla, bla.
My loads are all glass including my hat load, which all makes sense in my finally on a good day it can match my SJ escape show.
I played with accents YET more flack little beaching magicians.
I have wowed audiances around the world recived awards for my shows yet I let little beaching magicians get me down untill I realized It don't matter what they beaching about it REALLY don't.

I agree with a with both sides learn from masters with the aim of making it yours as you learn.

Avoid teachers who do not encourage you to do so or become bitter because of your success!

Getting flack is sometimes part of the road you must walk in order to achieve success

One of the hardest lesson I have been learning is to keep on keeping focused on your own vision regardless.

I will add hear a McBride Magic TV show which is a very positive episode to Brain Storming new ideas. If is well worth a watch if you missed it. It will help us on the path to becoming new-nick individuals and performers!
http://www.livestream.com/mcbridemagic/video?clipId=pla_e6be1a90-cdcc-437c-9b6a-b71c17a5811b

Mario
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Aug 28, 2012 09:16AM)
Well said Mario! Folks, who better to hear this from than Mr. Mario Morris, and who would know any better??
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 28, 2012 10:01AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 18:27, Sir Richard wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 12:12, jimmy talksalot wrote:
FatHatter,

bravo and thank you.

brilliant.
[/quote]After watching Jimmy on you tube yesterday, I realized that busking is not for me. I personally like bookings. No weather problems usually, no threats from thieves trying to steal your cash, and no costume that makes you look like a destitute homeless person. Ya all have a good one, ya hear?
[/quote]

"But I see your true colours
Shining through"
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 28, 2012 10:42AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 10:16, Dr_J_Ayala wrote:
Well said Mario! Folks, who better to hear this from than Mr. Mario Morris, and who would know any better??
[/quote] I hear you and others say that you're not all that concerned about the money, yet I notice you don't miss the opportunity to get your hat out there fast enough. Just sayin'.

Posted: Aug 28, 2012 12:38pm
I think it's safe to say that Buskers are going to view things differently than non-buskers. As for "pre-fabricated" tricks, any buskers on here do "crazyman's handcuffs? How about the Professor's nightmare? My mentor was once asked what he thought about a magician that performed for a group he was with down in Florida. He asked if they wanted him to speak honestly, or just be nice. They said that they wanted honesty. Here's what he told them:

1.) The man's shoes were scuffed and dirty.

2.) His clothes needed to be cleaned and pressed.

3.)There was dirt under his fingernails and he should have took a shower before showing up.

4.) He used the wrong line to a young girl.

Please note that 75% of what he saw in a negative vein was all about the magician's appearance. No offense meant to anyone here, but if that's the way you feel you have to look to perform then more power to ya! I wouldn't drop a dime in a hat by a performer that looked that way. I'd just be thinking he was trying to get enough scratch to get another bottle of "Mad-Dog 20-20." And if you don't think that how you impress your audience is important...well, I don't know what to tell you.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 28, 2012 11:51AM)
Different strokes.

So, what's impressive to your mentor is the purely superficial?
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 28, 2012 12:46PM)
Never mind. That was actually a rhetorical question. I knew the answer.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 28, 2012 01:55PM)
Well, to be fair, the purely superficial is the first thing we see and that first impression can never be regained.
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 28, 2012 02:24PM)
Right. I guess it's that whole book/cover dichotomy.

Oh well. Kind of sad the way members of certain performing arts judge each other. I'll look up the magicians cookie cutter model for successful expression and get up to speed. Thanks
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Aug 28, 2012 02:37PM)
Ed and Pizpor - well said, gents.
Message: Posted by: Rotten (Aug 28, 2012 03:04PM)
Once you know what a filet tastes like sirloin is no longer as impressive. This place is a hot dog.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 28, 2012 05:00PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 12:51, Pizpor wrote:
Different strokes.

So, what's impressive to your mentor is the purely superficial?
[/quote]Gazzo also teaches it on his DVD...uh...he is a Busker as well...right?

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (Aug 28, 2012 06:13PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 12:38, Sir Richard wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Buskers are going to view things differently than non-buskers. As for "pre-fabricated" tricks, any buskers on here do "crazyman's handcuffs? How about the Professor's nightmare? My mentor was once asked what he thought about a magician that performed for a group he was with down in Florida. He asked if they wanted him to speak honestly, or just be nice. They said that they wanted honesty. Here's what he told them:

1.) The man's shoes were scuffed and dirty.

2.) His clothes needed to be cleaned and pressed.

3.)There was dirt under his fingernails and he should have took a shower before showing up.

4.) He used the wrong line to a young girl.

Please note that 75% of what he saw in a negative vein was all about the magician's appearance. No offense meant to anyone here, but if that's the way you feel you have to look to perform then more power to ya! I wouldn't drop a dime in a hat by a performer that looked that way. I'd just be thinking he was trying to get enough scratch to get another bottle of "Mad-Dog 20-20." And if you don't think that how you impress your audience is important...well, I don't know what to tell you.

Sir Richard.
[/quote]

Stay on topic, Sir.
This is not not a discussion on the hygienic habits of some magician observed by your mentor.
We were having a debate between performance integrity versus copy-cat acts.
When we left off you were extolling on the virtues of hackdom.
Thus far, you have come up with one argument: that "it works".
Would you like to add to the list?
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Aug 28, 2012 06:44PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 18:00, Sir Richard wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 12:51, Pizpor wrote:
Different strokes.

So, what's impressive to your mentor is the purely superficial?
[/quote]Gazzo also teaches it on his DVD...uh...he is a Busker as well...right?

Sir Richard.
[/quote]

Ouch! Got me. I guess I missed that nugget. I'll go back and review.

Just help me out here, you want to quote the sources that support your notion of artistic expression, ok. But you also want to impose your opinion of art on a whole galaxy of possible ways to be something original as some sort of tried and true gospel. Hmmmmm....

Are you just pretending to not get the original thought of this thread: challenge yourself to be original?

I got to tell you, I created a whole act based solely on the premise of being the complete opposite of every magician you've ever seen. It's been running 8 years strong now. I'm really glad I didn't get sucked into this conversation when I was developing it.

Have you seen me perform?
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 28, 2012 06:59PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 19:44, Pizpor wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 18:00, Sir Richard wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 12:51, Pizpor wrote:
Different strokes.

So, what's impressive to your mentor is the purely superficial?
[/quote]Gazzo also teaches it on his DVD...uh...he is a Busker as well...right?

Sir Richard.
[/quote]
Ouch! Got me. I guess I missed that nugget. I'll go back and review.

Just help me out here, you want to quote the sources that support your notion of artistic expression, ok. But you also want to impose your opinion of art on a whole galaxy of possible ways to be something original as some sort of tried and true gospel. Hmmmmm....

Are you just pretending to not get the original thought of this thread: challenge yourself to be original?

I got to tell you, I created a whole act based solely on the premise of being the complete opposite of every magician you've ever seen. It's been running 8 years strong now. I'm really glad I didn't get sucked into this conversation when I was developing it.

Have you seen me perform?
[/quote]No I haven't, looking forward to it actually. And by the way, did you ever hear the expression "Art is in the eye of the beholder?" Or "One man's garbage is another man's art?" If you want to discuss "artistic" I think that opens up a large can of worms. Who decides? The performer? The audience? Other magicians? do they vote? How does it work? Do we hold up "point cards" like they do in figure skating competitions? Yes, I'm being facetious, but perhaps you see my point. The term "art" is at best, ambiguous, right? How do we really know? My opinion on the success of Jimmy's "art," as well as others on here, is that "it works!" The audiences like it and it makes the buskers money...which is what I said about my stuff way back in the beginning, remember?

Sir Richard.

[quote]
On 2012-08-28 19:13, RiffRaff wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 12:38, Sir Richard wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Buskers are going to view things differently than non-buskers. As for "pre-fabricated" tricks, any buskers on here do "crazyman's handcuffs? How about the Professor's nightmare? My mentor was once asked what he thought about a magician that performed for a group he was with down in Florida. He asked if they wanted him to speak honestly, or just be nice. They said that they wanted honesty. Here's what he told them:

1.) The man's shoes were scuffed and dirty.

2.) His clothes needed to be cleaned and pressed.

3.)There was dirt under his fingernails and he should have took a shower before showing up.

4.) He used the wrong line to a young girl.

Please note that 75% of what he saw in a negative vein was all about the magician's appearance. No offense meant to anyone here, but if that's the way you feel you have to look to perform then more power to ya! I wouldn't drop a dime in a hat by a performer that looked that way. I'd just be thinking he was trying to get enough scratch to get another bottle of "Mad-Dog 20-20." And if you don't think that how you impress your audience is important...well, I don't know what to tell you.

Sir Richard.
[/quote]

Stay on topic, Sir.
This is not not a discussion on the hygienic habits of some magician observed by your mentor.
We were having a debate between performance integrity versus copy-cat acts.
When we left off you were extolling on the virtues of hackdom.
Thus far, you have come up with one argument: that "it works".
Would you like to add to the list?
[/quote]RiffRaff, I AM original. I use the patter that comes with an effect until I figure out my own. If you want to stay on topic then go all the way back to when Jimmy mentioned his anger/frustration at all of the "Gazzo Clones" and I said that I agreed with him. So what's your point? The only reason the thread went sideways is that some of you jumped on my comment about what I saw on YouTube.

I use my own material for about 95% of what I do. I even found a nice patter for "Lazy Man's Card Trick!" It's great! I don't know that you'd call it artistic, but I like it.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Aug 28, 2012 07:07PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 11:01, FatHatter wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 18:27, Sir Richard wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 12:12, jimmy talksalot wrote:
FatHatter,

bravo and thank you.

brilliant.
[/quote]After watching Jimmy on you tube yesterday, I realized that busking is not for me. I personally like bookings. No weather problems usually, no threats from thieves trying to steal your cash, and no costume that makes you look like a destitute homeless person. Ya all have a good one, ya hear?
[/quote]

"But I see your true colours
Shining through"
[/quote]

Generally true colors are brigther whem busking because the "social thing" is smaller... the videoclip is colourful and inspiring...
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 29, 2012 07:59AM)
I wear my street appearance like a badge, thank you.

the people feel I am authentic, I know this because of all the comments over the years after my show and it has contributed to the good hats and excitement of the audience.

I have no arguement that a magician should look a little more formal than his audience, but it is not the character I am portraying. I am portraying a tramp who thinks he is a great magician...but he' just a tramp.

if it works......the audience begins to root for me and obeys my crowd control commands....

there's a lot more to it, but as riff raff has pointed out, this thread has been derailed many several times by sir richard, who I think has very little knowledge of the street venue aside from his own bleak and narrow romantic vision of it....which is fine....like he has said it's not his venue.

I would just ask that he stop talking as an authority on it with his untried theories.

as far as what he seems to know about, the indoors, I also worked many years indoors for private gigs and yes, got the manicures and pressed the shirts....but I also beat out any and all of the competition with my original work.

this can be verified simply by contacting Jaime O Hara in las cruces nm. who also had a very original act and together we dominated that entire region strictly from word of mouth. the competition using sir richard's way of thinking, lost work, also due to word of mouth.

and that is on topic.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 29, 2012 08:23AM)
This thread has been very interesting to read.

[quote]Mario Morris wrote: "Avoid teachers who do not encourage you to do so or become bitter because of your success!"[/quote]

Can't agree with that enough.

Jimmy, I guess I am curious at one thing. If you feel your show is successful and a quality product, why the concern for all the people who perform a cups routine?

One other question - what region did you dominate with Jaime? He's a heck of a performer. I'm sure you had a good time doing that.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 29, 2012 08:29AM)
One last thing, on the street there is a special feel for the live audience that can not be felt on a youtube video.

I am not sure which video is in question here, but one thing I am sure of is that me and my audience felt the experience that day and I know someone watching a one dementional clip might not.

I have always thought it unfair to judge a street show from a clip even if the performer watching it is a street performer, granted the street guy will be able to see a lot more then a layman when watching it, but he himself will know there was a lot more going on out there that he can't see or feel.

I can't tell you how many times I have had performers come up to me and tell me wow, that was a great show, I saw footage of you and didn't think you were any good.

I am not trying to brag here, honestly, it's just the situation this happens to all performers good or bad, this can be manipulated of course by very good camera men and film directors as is the case with blain or angel, as an example.....you can almost feel what the audience is feeling in their shows.

and sorry, now I'm moving a little off topic, but I thought it should be said, since we were talking about creating magic shows and creating a quality original product.

and I try and make a show that can transfer from one venue to another. some street shows ONLY work on the street, but I have tried to make mine "play" other venues also.

Posted: Aug 29, 2012 9:47am
Robert smith,

my concern is for the venue and the magic industry.

I want our industry to put out the highest quality they can. I am not sure that my show is the highest quality, but I am trying to do everything I can to make it that way....i may not succeed, but I feel justified in doing everything in my power to do that.

you see I really care about our art, no really, I take it seriously, to me it is not some thing I can do mediocre to make a living, this thing is bigger than us and it has been for thousands of years...i am a fanatic...an d I believe the layman expect this and deserve it.

if I'm failing and I suck, at least I am doing the best I can, without excuses and justification for cutting corners. and yeah if a master has some problem with your success, that is a serious flaw/ ego/ jealousy problem.

my students at this point are all better than me and I am proud about them and brag about them. I promote them and support them when ever I can....and I am very hard on them to be loyal to our traditions and it has paid off, they are all successful and have brilliant original shows.

THEY ARE MY PROOF THAT WHAT I SAY WORKS.

many of them are more well known than me, do better magic than me, and most of them make more money than me lol and I am proud of this. they are always my vindication.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 29, 2012 08:50AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-29 09:47, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Robert smith,

my concern is for the venue and the magic industry.

I want our industry to put out the highest quality they can.

I am not sure that my show is the highest quality, but I am trying to do everything I can to make it that way....i may not succeed, but I feel justified in doing everything in my power to do that.

you see I really care about our art, no really, I take it seriously, to me it is not some thing I can do mediocre to make a living, this thing is bigger than us and it has been for thousands of years...i am a fanatic...an d I believe the layman expect this and deserve it.

if I'm failing and I suck, at least I am doing the best I can, without excuses and justification for cutting corners.

and yeah if a master has some problem with your success, that is a serious flaw/ ego/ jealousy problem.

my students at this point are all better than me and I am proud about them and brag about them. I promote them and support them when ever I can....and I am very hard on them to be loyal to our traditions and it has paid off, they are all successful and have brilliant original shows.

THEY ARE MY PROOF THAT WHAT I SAY WORKS.

many of them are more well known than me, do better magic than me, and most of them make more money than me....lol...and I am proud of this.

they are always my vindication.
[/quote]

Cool man. I'm down with that.

As a side note - hope you're doing okay with Isaac down there. Stay safe.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 29, 2012 09:00AM)
Isaac who down where?

I think my senility is kickin in again lol.

I'm in madrid, right now.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 29, 2012 09:07AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-29 10:00, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Isaac who down where?

I think my senility is kickin in again lol.

I'm in madrid, right now.
[/quote]

Well that would explain it. Hurricane hitting Louisiana and Mississippi as we speak. Enjoy Madrid.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 29, 2012 11:36AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 15:37, Dr_J_Ayala wrote:
Ed and Pizpor - well said, gents.
[/quote]

Yay! I said something that didn't tick people off! That seems to be a first for me recently.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Aug 29, 2012 12:13PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-29 12:36, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-28 15:37, Dr_J_Ayala wrote:
Ed and Pizpor - well said, gents.
[/quote]

Yay! I said something that didn't tick people off! That seems to be a first for me recently.
[/quote]

Gee whiz...really ticks me off when people congratulate themselves...

Just kidding Ed...always enjoy your comments and insight
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 29, 2012 12:41PM)
Thanks. I try, being aware that I am not only a "weekend warrior," but also I'm aware that I'm NOT totally original as Jimmy or Gazzo.
Having said that, as I've said before, I will not do Gazzo's routine because I don't believe I can bring anything to it.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 29, 2012 02:44PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-29 13:41, ed rhodes wrote:
Thanks. I try, being aware that I am not only a "weekend warrior," but also I'm aware that I'm NOT totally original as Jimmy or Gazzo.
Having said that, as I've said before, I will not do Gazzo's routine because I don't believe I can bring anything to it.
[/quote]

One doesn't do Gazzo's routine to bring something to it. One does Gazzo's routine for what it brings to them.

If you're just starting out performing as I was a decade ago, his act is an excellent way to get out there with a proven framework. It gives you a product to put out on display and figure out WHY things work the way they do. That is one of the most valuable things that happens in choosing to do a proven act. You save time reinventing the wheel and (hopefully) begin to create your own bits in the process.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 29, 2012 03:02PM)
[quote]



You save time reinventing the wheel and (hopefully) begin to create your own bits in the process.
[/quote]

So that's why we never get any new wheels. ;)
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 29, 2012 05:41PM)
Robert smith,
or you could be like a magician and make your own magic show. you know like magicians have always been thought of as doing.

I WOULD NEVER DO ANYONES SHOW TO GET WHAT I CAN OUT OF IT. WOW.

getting in the habit of copying won't make you any more original. sure it's harder on your ego and your hat that's the point. these are called dues.

believe me you will understand A LOT quicker what's working and what's not working and why, going out there with your own material because you will have to use your brain. if you believe your a magician, than all you have to do is be yourself.

Posted: Aug 29, 2012 6:46pm
Sorry,

I think I talk a little too "street" on here sometimes. this hurt me bad, when I was lecturing, it really put a lot of people off. so if it's bothering you, try and understand this is the sort of thing you might confront from street guys if you go out there....unfiltered opinion.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 29, 2012 06:13PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-29 09:23, RobertSmith wrote:
One other question - what region did you dominate with Jaime O'Hara? [/quote]
Hmmmmm?....
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 29, 2012 06:48PM)
At the time of my leaving el paso,

I had booked as normal.

6 or 7 gigs on sat. 6 on sun 5 on fri and 3 or 4 everyday weedays. this was my average. I held this schedual for 4 years. in el paso and surounding areas.

on top of all this madness I owned a magic shop in el paso.

this schedual also included the 7 resteruants that we had secured in el paso alone.

and the only two stadiums in the area were booked for games, also schools, churchs, and libraies. programs specially written for the venues which were due totally to jaime's marketing ablity and talent to hold these jobs.

jaime's really the success story here, I just worked with him very closely.

the fact is jaime's schedule was a lot fuller than mine having worked there 17 years before me there and he began by giving me his overflow which saved my life at the time, because in the begining I was starving.

I worked el paso and parts of texas, but he worked texas and new mexico and surrounding states.

I say all this knowing you already knew this Devious and are living up to your name for some reason with this.

also, I would like to add for robert,

cellini would tell all the beginners, when you go out there, "take the three tricks that you know well and use those, the ones you always do when out or carry in you pockets, and some one asks you to do a trick, the three you know never fail and go out with those."

he didn't say, here take this gazzo's dvd and memorize it and you'll be more original one day after you get the hang of street performing.

and he has quite a legacy of masters that he taught and influenced, more then any of us here I might add.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 29, 2012 07:01PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-29 19:48, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I say all this knowing you already knew this Devious and are living up to your name for some reason with this.
[/quote]

I was trying to give you a nice segue buddy...hope you are enjoying Espana.
Dr J. Ayala was born there by the way.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 29, 2012 07:14PM)
I miss you and roger out there mi hermanos, I hope everything's good with you. I wish you were here simon.

on el paso time in spanglish. lol

Posted: Aug 29, 2012 8:14pm
Viva espana
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Aug 29, 2012 08:23PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-29 18:41, jimmy talksalot wrote:

...getting in the habit of copying won't make you any more original. Sure it's harder on your ego and your hat....that's the point. These are called dues...
[/quote]

As I said in my first post on this thread, it is perfectly fine to imitate in order to learn, as a beginner or an amateur, BUT if you do not learn anything from imitating others (LEARN being the operative word) you cannot even begin to forge your own path toward creativity and originality, and you will never be anything more than a beginner/amateur.

Well said Jimmy.

[quote]
On 2012-08-29 20:14, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Viva espana
[/quote]

Y viva la Furia!
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 29, 2012 09:36PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-29 18:41, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Robert smith,
or you could be like a magician and make your own magic show you know like magicians have always been thought of as doing.

I WOULD NEVER DO ANYONES SHOW TO GET WHAT I CAN OUT OF IT.

WOW.

getting in the habit of copying won't make you any more original.

sure it's harder on your ego and your hat that's the point. these are called dues.
believe me you will understand A LOT quicker what's working and what's not working and why, going out there with your own material because you will have to use your brain.

if you believe your a magician, than all you have to do is be yourself.
[/quote]
Listen I didn't say that's the only way. If you feel your way worked well, that's fine. I don't need to take a square out to understand it's not rolling because it's not round. That's just my perspective. Is my perspective or yours superior? It doesn't matter. I'm now very successful (sans Gazzo's act) and clearly you are as well.

As for being original, let me ask you, do you really genuinely believe your show is, "original?" I don't ask that as an insult. I ask that genuinely.
[quote]
On 2012-08-29 19:48, jimmy talksalot wrote:

also, I would like to add for robert,

cellini would tell all the beginners, when you go out there, "take the three tricks that you know well and use those, the ones you always do when out or carry in you pockets, and some one asks you to do a trick, the three you know never fail and go out with those."

he didn't say, here take this gazzo's dvd and memorize it and you'll be more original one day after you get the hang of street performing.

and he has quite a legacy of masters that he taught and influenced, more then any of us here I might add.
[/quote]
Hey fair enough. Just remember, I'm not the one who put my act for sale on DVD. Perhaps you shouldn't be critical of those who bought the act but those who put it out there for purchase to begin with?

Also keep in mind, Jim was a legendary street performer. I don't busk. I make my living in the fair industry. And while the environments are very similar, there's also some distinct differences. You can get away with 1,000 times more on the street than I can in my market.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 30, 2012 03:51AM)
To think any tricks could be invented by me would arrogant and foolish.

tricks are like color on a palet, but to say an artist is unoriginal because he uses paint isn't fair.

but the arrangement of tricks into personally made routines combined with a unique character that these routines were made by, is not arrogant or foolish, it's making a magic show.

I feel my show is more original than it would be if I copied an insult cups show or a straight jacket, one trick, hype, circle show...and tried to work it out how to be original.

I am as original I believe as any other magician doing a magic show other than gazzos or the hype straight jacket.

don't get me wrong either I think the straight jacket is a great tool, I love it and it can be done originally.

the first time I did it, I got myself into it and than got myself out of it, no audience participation, I did it as a mime clown trying to wear the strange jacket..i did not do it as a finale..i thought I was the only one doing this til I saw a girl who has been putting it on and taking it off for years, her act his super original I think it's super brilliant.

she's a girl who tells a love story through mime who get's in and out of a straight jacket to the song crazy by patsy kline. the routine is an important part of the story.

or Michael patrick hanging upside down by a tripod espacping from two different types of jackets at the same time wow.

both these examples still a jacket, but thought out and presented to fit thier characters. I feel I present my tricks differently in the same manner.

example with the cups why not do it on the ground silent as a crowd builder?

or

do it as part of a manipulation act and a cup and bowl are sitting on the table from your lunch and things appear sometimes under them but not as often as they appear in your hands or behind your knee or elbow etc.

WHY do I have to tell magicians what a magic show is on the magic Café?

you know us magicians don't get excited about the next t.v. magic special knowing it's going to be another gazzo clone.

or go to the conventions to see thousands of gazzo clones.

or read our magic magazines to learn about the newest gazzo clones.

or seesion at the meetings to learn how to be better magic clones.

or buy old books to see how the first gazzo clones...cloned.

or go to the magic shop and say, I only want to see the tricks that are in gazzos show.

I could go on.

people here are having a hard time getting my point or they just don't want to do the work and are throwing stuff at me to see how may times I can state the obvious.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 30, 2012 08:11AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-30 04:51, jimmy talksalot wrote:

WHY do I have to tell magicians what a magic show is on the magic Café?

you know us magicians don't get excited about the next t.v. magic special knowing it's going to be another gazzo clone.

or go to the conventions to see thousands of gazzo clones.

or read our magic magazines to learn about the newest gazzo clones.

or seesion at the meetings to learn how to be better magic clones.

or buy old books to see how the first gazzo clones...cloned.

or go to the magic shop and say, I only want to see the tricks that are in gazzos show.

I could go on.

people here are having a hard time getting my point or they just don't want to do the work and are throwing stuff at me to see how may times I can state the obvious.
[/quote]

Your point started out about cups.

Based on this post, your problem doesn't seem to be cups & balls. Your problem seems to be Gazzo's act and those who do it.

You said yourself, it's not fair to criticize an artist for using paint.

Not all performers who utilize a cups routine are doing Gazzo's act. I understand many do. But tell me, in relation to the cups, since that is the topic of this entire thread, what is it about Gazzo's cups that define them as Gazzo's?

Is it one sequence over another? Magicians have moved balls from one cup to another for centuries.
Is it the six oranges?
The hat load?

You clearly take exception with, "Gazzo clones."

What about Sonny Holiday clones?
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 30, 2012 09:04AM)
Robert, maybe you got creative, not "because" you copied someone, but "inspite" of it.

robert your a good guy and I'm sorry I'm sort of picking on you, but I'm going to try and show a deeper concept here;

I think gazzo is a master at what he does and I watch his act and laff, brilliant really, but, I do not feel a strong connection to gazzo or his work in my life or in my work...not my cup of tea.

in my act all the butt of the jokes fall on me.

I watched gazzos dvds and read all his books and I don't remember him saying, "alright everyone copy this act."

I have heard a lot of "money first guys" who have some sort of investment in the products or are bilking us magicians or the clones say, it's his own fault he put out the product...

wow, how ungrateful this sounds.

saddly, one thing is for sure I will never put out a, "how to do my act dvd or book." for magicians to take pieces out and create their own shows with...because they won't they'll just copy me word for word.

here's why;

when I spoke to gazzo about this, some years back in london, he told me that he put into the book and into the dvd:

-something to the effect that; his act was merely an EXAMPLE of a system one should learn....

some of you may need to read that again, what it's saying is, DON'T COPY SHOW-LEARN SYSTEM IN DVD.

I said, "why didn't you put this statement on every page at the top as a header and every scene in the dvd and printed at the top of the screen for the whole dvd so they will understand."

he said,

"why?"


"no one is that stupid."

well, now we can see how wrong gazzo can be.

fact is he was surprised probably as much as the rest of us, who wouldn't copy, because a magician would feel shame for copying and missing the whole point of the product that there is a system that needs to be learned not another man's show.

anyway, it is not my place to talk for him or about him I felt cornered into it so I did.

he may have even changed his opinion on the subject for all I know and that is errelevant anyway to the point of this thread.

but, that essentially is why I don't think this is about gazzo at all.

this is about magicians who can't make magic shows......you know what magicians do....make magic shows.

so I will have to refrain from any other discussion about gazzo.

I really like his old friend gary animal why don't we talk about him....he rocks I love his stage presence and comedy and his magic is really good.

not to mention he makes argueably the best cups in the world by hand.

Posted: Aug 30, 2012 10:06am
And by the way nobody is good enough to clone sonny yet.

Posted: Aug 30, 2012 10:08am
Sorry, I was writing as you posted so I didn't get a chance to answer your questions.

suffice to say you know good and well the diiference between gazzo and lets say tommy wonder or lance Burton or rick jay and the list goes on so you tell me what the difference is I'm tired now of stating the obvious.

Posted: Aug 30, 2012 10:12am
Find me just one, just one guy doing sonny's act. you can't.

I can find you a minimum of 25 guys on youtube doing gazzos in seconds. and I know there must be thousands.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Aug 30, 2012 11:11AM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-30 10:04, jimmy talksalot wrote:

I watched gazzos dvds and read all his books and I don't remember him saying, "alright everyone copy this act."

I have heard a lot of "money first guys" who have some sort of investment in the products or are bilking us magicians or the clones say, it's his own fault he put out the product.
[/quote]Jimmy, are you serious? Of course Gazzo expected it, that's why he gives explicit instructions on the DVD for the performers who want to do it and why he gives permission for them to use his jokes. Why else would he expect anybody to buy it? It's "six of one and a half dozen of the other." You can't accuse the "clones" without accusing Gazzo as well. On the DVD Gazzo also shows a young girl whom he's taught his act by name of "Billie," if memory serves me correctly. However I agree with you on the lack of quality with what the "clones" are doing. Just saw somebody by name of "Davenport" put me to sleep with Gazzo's act on YouTube!

Sir Richard.

[quote]
On 2012-08-30 09:11, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-08-30 04:51, jimmy talksalot wrote:

WHY do I have to tell magicians what a magic show is on the magic Café?

you know us magicians don't get excited about the next t.v. magic special knowing it's going to be another gazzo clone.

or go to the conventions to see thousands of gazzo clones.
or read our magic magazines to learn about the newest gazzo clones.
or seesion at the meetings to learn how to be better magic clones.
or buy old books to see how the first gazzo clones...cloned.
or go to the magic shop and say, I only want to see the tricks that are in gazzos show.

I could go on.

people here are having a hard time getting my point or they just don't want to do the work and are throwing stuff at me to see how may times I can state the obvious.
[/quote]
Your point started out about cups.

Based on this post, your problem doesn't seem to be cups & balls. Your problem seems to be Gazzo's act and those who do it.

You said yourself, it's not fair to criticize an artist for using paint.

Not all performers who utilize a cups routine are doing Gazzo's act. I understand many do. But tell me, in relation to the cups, since that is the topic of this entire thread, what is it about Gazzo's cups that define them as Gazzo's?

Is it one sequence over another? Magicians have moved balls from one cup to another for centuries.
Is it the six oranges?
The hat load?

You clearly take exception with, "Gazzo clones."

What about Sonny Holiday clones?
[/quote]
Well said Robert!

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 30, 2012 11:50AM)
Uno, dos, tres.....
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 30, 2012 12:21PM)
Un.deux..trois...
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Aug 30, 2012 12:57PM)
Uno, due, tre... Or caveman style: uh, uh uh, and three...
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Aug 30, 2012 01:02PM)
Një Dy Tre
Message: Posted by: imgic (Aug 30, 2012 01:26PM)
Many years ago, while on the high school swim team, a coach told us something I always found very valuable; "Stay in your own lane." He didn't imply we were so bad we'd stray into other lanes, but the only thing that mattered was how well you did. Focus on yourself, challenge yourself, and don't worry about others. I'd apply that here...work your routines as you want and don't worry about others. If they want to be Gazzo clones, what does it matter to somebody else? Work your materail to the best of your ability.

In the long run the clones will fall victim to economic pressures...saw a great example a few weekends ago in Boulder. Three jugglers were busking, I've seen all three of their acts at various times: they all use a height trick (unicycle or ladder), I've seen them use the same lines, jokes and gags. But this weekend they were all sharing same pitch...one after another. So I saw a variety of jokes: they changed it up a bit. If they hadn't, the last one in the rotation would have found himself with a small hat indeed. If there are 10 Gazzo clones in an area: it's unlikely they'll all survive.

And I'd think somebody would be happy to have 10 clones around them...makes someone with a unique set stand out all that much more.

So if there are clones out there...who cares? Swim in your own lane and work on improving yourself to the best of your desires and abilities.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 30, 2012 01:31PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-30 10:06, jimmy talksalot wrote:
And by the way nobody is good enough to clone sonny yet.
[/quote]
Perhaps not. But some seem to be trying.
[quote]
On 2012-08-30 10:04, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Robert, maybe you got creative, not "because" you copied someone, but "inspite" of it.

robert your a good guy and I'm sorry I'm sort of picking on you, but I'm going to try and show a deeper concept here;

I think gazzo is a master at what he does and I watch his act and laff, brilliant really, but, I do not feel a strong connection to gazzo or his work in my life or in my work...not my cup of tea.

in my act all the butt of the jokes fall on me.

I watched gazzos dvds and read all his books and I don't remember him saying, "alright everyone copy this act."

I have heard a lot of "money first guys" who have some sort of investment in the products or are bilking us magicians or the clones say, it's his own fault he put out the product...

wow, how ungrateful this sounds.

saddly, one thing is for sure I will never put out a, "how to do my act dvd or book." for magicians to take pieces out and create their own shows with...because they won't they'll just copy me word for word.

here's why;

when I spoke to gazzo about this, some years back in london, he told me that he put into the book and into the dvd:

-something to the effect that; his act was merely an EXAMPLE of a system one should learn....

some of you may need to read that again, what it's saying is, DON'T COPY SHOW-LEARN SYSTEM IN DVD.

I said, "why didn't you put this statement on every page at the top as a header and every scene in the dvd and printed at the top of the screen for the whole dvd so they will understand."

he said,

"why?"

"no one is that stupid..........................."

well, now we can see how wrong gazzo can be.

fact is he was surprised probably as much as the rest of us, who wouldn't copy, because a magician would feel shame for copying and missing the whole point of the product that there is a system that needs to be learned not another man's show.

anyway, it is not my place to talk for him or about him I felt cornered into it so I did.

he may have even changed his opinion on the subject for all I know and that is errelevant anyway to the point of this thread.

but, that essentially is why I don't think this is about gazzo at all.

this is about magicians who can't make magic shows......you know what magicians do....make magic shows.

so I will have to refrain from any other discussion about gazzo.

I really like his old friend gary animal why don't we talk about him....he rocks I love his stage presence and comedy and his magic is really good.

not to mention he makes argueably the best cups in the world by hand.
[/quote]
I can't say anything to what Gazzo may or may not have said to you. I wasn't there.

However, if Gazzo did not intend people to do his act/tricks then please explain...

*Gazzo's routine on VHS & then DVD
*Gazzo cups
*Gazzo pouch
*Gazzo Tossed Out Deck
*Gazzo's Read Between the Lines

And on. and on.

[b]Please know, this is no offense to Gazzo.[/b] The man is a legendary performer and many, myself included, owe him a debt of thanks.

However, I just don't accept for one second that he only intended his routine to be a "system," to develop an act. Fact is, he likely saw an opportunity to make money selling his act and props, and he did.

Can you blame him? Heck no. The stuff he's put out along the way is amazing and hopefully has made him good money.

[b]I digress however...[/b]I agree with you Jimmy, enough of Gazzo the man in this discussion. Back to the cups.

And speaking of the cups...Jimmy...can you distinguish for me, what part of Gazzo's cups routine makes it his?

You say you can find Gazzo clones all over YouTube. That's no doubt true. Everything is on YouTube. But what part of the Cups is Gazzo's?

Perhaps if we could distinguish that then all the clones could change that part?

As I said before, magicians have moved balls under cups for centuries. So what is it? The first sequence? The hat load? The six oranges?

Or perhaps more abstract. If someone uses large copper cups and a pouch are they therefore a "Gazzo clone?"
Message: Posted by: solrak29 (Aug 30, 2012 01:51PM)
Perhaps we should leave the thought of cups and clones out of it and
focus on creativity and/or show construction with magic selection. But
that's me and maybe for another thread.

I am not sure if there are many Gazzo clones out there but there are sure a
good number of guys who perform on the street that do the cups. You
can't deny why the cups are being used. It's great tip builder, great
routines can be applied that can be performed surounded. Are there
other effects/routines that can be done with the same qualities? Yes,
but do they please the audience as much? Yes, but do you dare venture
in that direction? that's where the money versus art thing comes into play.
Perhaps that is what holds us back from realizing some other piece of magic
that can do as well as, if not better than the cups. Perhaps that is
what is holding some of us back period.

Shoot, in my part of town, I've seen 5 performers this season. Two out
of the five do the cups. One of the two would be considered of the Gazzo
influence. This would be due to his use of the oversized cups and oranges
production, and maybe a line or two; but, no clone. Or is he?

In the end, I think we all get it and that we all should always look to
evolving/improving our acts and take the time to look back and reflect on what
we are doing and what we could be doing differently. We should also
help each other out in providing constructive criticism to help facilitate
that on the pitch...no?

I am sure we all do this. With the idea in making our shows the best
that they can be and "it" to be our [b]OWN[/b] show.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Aug 30, 2012 02:04PM)
Karlos,
Your post sums it up pretty well. You put it very succintly!
Bravissimo!

Now did someone say [b]CLOWNS[/b] or Clones?
[img]https://www.mooseburgeronline.com/product_images/f/096/sendintheclowns1__51221_zoom.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: WilliamMckeehan (Aug 30, 2012 03:57PM)
What does a cannibal eat for breakfast?








Kevin Bacon.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Aug 30, 2012 04:38PM)
Gazzo put out books and dvds. He could have put disclaimers on every page/frame not do do his act. Or, he could never have published any work.

Guess what?

Either way, there would be some still doing his act. They see him make money, so...they do what he does. Some people, given the chance, will always disappoint you.


7 billion people on the planet and very few magicians. I wouldn't worry too much about what anyone else is doing.
Message: Posted by: SmileAndNod (Aug 30, 2012 04:45PM)
The reason the Cups and Balls is the biggest money maker is because right before collecting, there is a big "wow" moment. Honestly, the cups and balls is 90% lead up to 1 move. Without the final load it's plain boring. This simply kills innovation for it because most of the trick doesn't really matter. Each little step is interchangeable, and long as it gets to the same place at the end, it's basically the same routine.

An exception to this style is Tommy Wonder's 2 cup routine. The pacing avoids the stagnant feel of the body of the routine with mini-"final loads"

But pretty much all you ever see is the same old Dai Vernon routine.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 30, 2012 05:18PM)
Best I can tell from what Jimmy has said is there are street performers and there are those who do cups and balls.

Those who do cups seem to be clones.

Those who use inflection like Sonny Holiday and make a cigar appear while leaning over...well....who am I to criticize?

I tip my cap to anyone out there making it happen. Whether the do cups or not, do cigars or not or use the same old lines or not.

Fat hats to all.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 30, 2012 05:29PM)
Wow. really fellahs? wow.

any way I read back over all the posts here and I have already said everything I need to say.

I hope one day, magicians will be brave enough to make magic shows again. ha

your pal jimmy

Posted: Aug 30, 2012 6:59pm
Wow really that's what I said?

is that REALLY what you heard.

and I'm the same as 90% of the other street guys doing the same cup routine, because I do one trick that was given to me by my teacher.

or inflection wha.....justifies magicians going out in hordes doing the same show and telling beginners to do the same thing?

point is even if I did it exactly like sonny I would only do it if he asked me to.

difference here is, sonny is my teacher.

not some dvd show I ripped off.

Posted: Aug 30, 2012 7:04pm
And I never even insinuated that a cup guy isn't a street guy.

sorry just read the post.

Posted: Aug 30, 2012 7:07pm
And thanks for the fat hats I need em now wow it's expesive here.
Message: Posted by: fireperformer911 (Aug 30, 2012 06:35PM)
That does it I am going to clone Gazzo's act. Where can I get his COMIC TIMING, HIS DECADES OF PERFORMING EXPERIENCE, SHOW TIMING FROM DEVELOPING HIS OWN ACT, BRITISH ACCENT. What dvd is that on? I hopes it's not in a book because I can't be bothered to read


Thanks in Advance.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 30, 2012 06:38PM)
Exactly.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 30, 2012 06:38PM)
Miss you brother

Posted: Aug 30, 2012 7:43pm
My mouth has run out of control.

super embarrassed.

havin a tuff time on this pitch and gettin discouraged and worn out from the road I'm gettin old.

met another performer who took me around and showed me the game plan for the city. due to him and his positive encouragement, thankfully I had a break through today, but no promises.

I was thinkin about our faith and I remembered hope is a powerful thing. changed my whole mood.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Aug 30, 2012 07:23PM)
I think giving 9 pages to a negative focus is counterproductive. How about a focus on the [i]magicians[/i] that do "their own" thing, Jimmy? As you've mentioned, they simply can and they do! Give energy to that, I say.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 30, 2012 07:59PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-30 19:43, jimmy talksalot wrote:
My mouth has run out of control.

super embarrassed.

havin a tuff time on this pitch and gettin discouraged and worn out from the road I'm gettin old.

met another performer who took me around and showed me the game plan for the city. due to him and his positive encouragement, thankfully I had a break through today, but no promises.

I was thinkin about our faith and I remembered hope is a powerful thing. changed my whole mood.
[/quote]

Sorry to hear Madrid is rough for you. Perhaps you should try ending with cups and balls? ;-)

Jimmy, no hard feelings either way buddy. You're out there doing it. That puts you ahead of thousands of others. Particularly those who've never performed and yet give advice on the matter.

See you around.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Aug 30, 2012 08:36PM)
[quote]
On 2012-08-27 13:25, Stperformer wrote:
I'm going to jump in here and add something I think is very very very important.
I qualify myself as being out there for a very long time, you'll just have to trust me in that.

Saying you are doing it for the sake of Art is in the right direction...but you have a ways to go yet.

After so so much time I realized that what is the most important thing in Street Theatre (for me) is the effect I have on the people watching my show. What I do is rather irrelevant...whether it be the cups & balls or whatever. It the charm, the wit, the drama, the humour....the ability to put it all together such that the person leaving my show has been affected in a possitive way. And in order to do that you need to be sincere in your actions and presentation.

You accomplish this, and your hats will end up being way beyond the money guys, while being somewhat more artistic than many of the 'artists'.

It's a very hard thing to describe unless you witness what I'm talking about...and there's very very few that have achieved this. But in my honest opinion, when you are able to have an emotional impact on the audience......that is the ultimate. What you do to get there, well that's totally up to you.

Hope this makes some sort of sense, Jimmy, as it's probably the most sincere and truest post I've made :)
[/quote]

:applause:
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 31, 2012 01:51AM)
This thread was a protest.

sometimes when bad things are happening you can't close your eyes and hope they go away. sometimes you have to stand up and point out that something is wrong...even if it comes off as negative.

the reason that this turned into 9 pages, is because there are some people who say, bad behavior is good and nobody has called them on it.

I also applauded stperformer for that post.

I don't know if you have read my other threads or my instructional blog, but they have always been very positive and pointing out how original so many are and who they are.

for instance the who's who blog is a profile and promo place for the small acts that don't seem to get any credit for their work. there's also some big names but not a lot.

http://sidewalkperformerswhoswho.blogspot.com.es/

frankly magicalaurie I was sticking up for folks like them and well, you.

thanks for enduring the thread.

Posted: Aug 31, 2012 3:10am
Infact,

for those of you who don't understand how the cups can be performed differently then the 90% on the street doing it, watch magicalaurie's cup routine;

http://magicalaurie.sharepoint.com/Pages/featuredvideo.aspx

she is the perfect example of someone willing to take the time to create.

I'm a big fan.

Posted: Aug 31, 2012 3:25am
I would love to see this cups and balls routine and the rest of her work on the street, she makes magic.

please watch the other videos too, it is a vivid example of what I have been talking about this whole thread.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Aug 31, 2012 11:21AM)
Thankyou very much, Jimmy. I understand you're need to protest, believe me, and I appreciate it. I know you applauded Stperformer's post, and I saw some other posts in the 9 pages with the positive focus I was looking for and feel is more productive. I appreciate your passion, and respect it. And I stand by my point. ;)

There's a few pics of what I'm currently doing with C&Bs on the street [url=http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.435906809794502.131441.255328114519040&type=1]here[/url]

All the best! :)
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 31, 2012 12:00PM)
And your point is taken.

thank you.

great pictures, you are a great example of what I have been describing as different then the usual and I think the pictures show a completely different atmosphere then I always see.

yours looks more like magic, I'm sure the people loved it, and I know the children will remember it for the rest of their lives.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Aug 31, 2012 05:25PM)
I say take a deep breath and relax. There are always going to be people who take their paints and do "paint by number" imitations of the masters. Then there will be others who take the paints, learn the techniques and create their own original artwork (some masterpieces, some not).

Jimmy, the trick for you, in my humble opinion, is to find those wanting to create original work: mentor them, encourage them, collaborate with them...help them as you you were helped.

There will always be somebody selling neon Elvis paintings on black velvet out of the back of their van. While others produce works worthy of being in le Louvre.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Aug 31, 2012 05:33PM)
Yep.

another great point taken.

thanks.
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 1, 2012 11:43AM)
I was thinking about Gazzo, about originality and the affect a good act has on an audience. For me one of the biggest problems has not been mentioned. Often street performances are just unpleasant. The sort of thing where you invite a spectator up, they are all loved up, just married, you ask for their ring and then start making a mockery. Everyone laughs....perhaps even the spectator who owns the ring laughs....what else are they going to do? Everyone is laughing and the magician feels great.

I used to do this sort of humour, I find it really easy and I got lots of laughs....until I realised that the person who was the butt of the joke was sometimes only laughing on the outside. I thought I was really funny; I realised I was just being cruel.

I know some talented lovely kind buskers who would not hurt a fly. They use Gazzo lines like "I'm not your father kid, it could be any one of us". That is just horrid. Sure it works (in street) and everyone laughs. But it is nasty. This kind of stuff has started to leave the theatres. When will it leave the street?

People copy Gazzo's cups and balls routine. But they copy his lines in many routines. Nasty, funny lines. When will artists develop different ones?
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 1, 2012 06:42PM)
Wow, you really get it.

thank you.

you see, the reason they do this, they say, is because it "works" because it makes them "successful"

of course I have a different opinion about what "works" and what is "successful."

anybody can tell a dirty joke, but a comedian can make people laff, with or without a dirty joke.

he doesn't even need to make a fool out of a volunteer.

you see djurmann,

this is really about money and ego.

if they are the type of person who puts money first, instead of artistic motives, they don't care what they do to people, they don't care as long as it pays....and yes, it does pay.

cheap laffs and pulling mean things on people, will keep a mediocre performer working for the rest of his life, a sad reality.

now understand, I AM NOT SAYING, I AM A GREAT PERFORMER OR SOME GREAT ARTIST, far from it.

..........

I'm in spain and I had a break through yesterday and have been doing really good since.

as I walked down the long pitch I saw a pupeteer with a frog playing piano. the set and stage was really nice and the puppet was intricate and really looked like it was playing all fingers moving in time to the music.

the music was wonderful.

up beat, fun whistle type, classical piano.

the puppeteer had a crowd.

a little girl maybe 4 years old was fearlessly up front, completely captivated by the frog.

when the song ended without thinking, she started clapping involuntarily and dramatically, staring at the frog, she looked so greatful.

she thought that frog was the greatest thing, she couldn't believe someone had actually made something like that for her and her friends, because grown ups usually don't get anything right.

I could see all this instantly, in her face and in her actions.

then she looked around insistantly clapping with here hands up, looking half back at the crowd, sternly urging the crowd to clap.

and like magic they all they clapped.

a "money first guy" will never get this.

he'll never even get why I just wrote that for free.

all he knows is, he don't like me.

please know that there are still street performers who agree with your point.

thank you for your post.
Message: Posted by: MagiCol (Sep 1, 2012 07:43PM)
Imgic, I like what you said! [2 posts ago]. I think most newbies to magic simply copy a routine but I hope they grow in understanding and techneques to personalize the routine for themselves with changes to moves, patter, props, etc.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 1, 2012 08:34PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-01 12:43, djurmann wrote:
I was thinking about Gazzo, about originality and the affect a good act has on an audience. For me one of the biggest problems has not been mentioned. Often street performances are just unpleasant. The sort of thing where you invite a spectator up, they are all loved up, just married, you ask for their ring and then start making a mockery. Everyone laughs....perhaps even the spectator who owns the ring laughs....what else are they going to do? Everyone is laughing and the magician feels great.

I used to do this sort of humour, I find it really easy and I got lots of laughs....until I realised that the person who was the butt of the joke was sometimes only laughing on the outside. I thought I was really funny; I realised I was just being cruel.

I know some talented lovely kind buskers who would not hurt a fly. They use Gazzo lines like "I'm not your father kid, it could be any one of us". That is just horrid. Sure it works (in street) and everyone laughs. But it is nasty. This kind of stuff has started to leave the theatres. When will it leave the street?

People copy Gazzo's cups and balls routine. But they copy his lines in many routines. Nasty, funny lines. When will artists develop different ones?
[/quote]

The irony about copying his lines is awesome.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Sep 1, 2012 09:06PM)
You never know what the reaction of a group of spectators could be to a questionable line. Up until today I had a line in my rope routine that went like so: "When my wife first saw this trick she got really excited but then she found out it only works on ropes..." Now I have never noticed anyone upset with this joke, I always direct it towards adults and I never use it if my audience is primarily children. It is my line and has gotten lots of laughs. Today I was working a festival. I was even a sort of Busking Ambassador of sorts to this City, and will be again tomorrow.

I was working my first or second crowd. The rope trick is the second one in my show. I had an edge that was between 20 and 25 people. I used the joke as normal, the adults laughed, and I turned to face the people on my left as I started the Slydini Count. When I turned to my right, half my edge was walking away. A couple of adults were sort of dragging their kids away. I have always looked at this line as extremely tame, PG or PG-13 MAX! Apparently the family that made up about half of my edge at that time didn't feel the same way. I lost half my crowd and had no way to get them back because I had offended them. That was one of the worst feelings ever. I miss judged the crowd and paid for it with a lost crowd. The few people that were left were not enough at that late stage in the show to build the type of crowd that would have come from the 25+ people that were there at the time of the questionable joke. I haven't used it a single time since and I even replaced a semi-questionable line during Jimmy's dreaded cups and balls after the initial vanish of the three balls, I have always looked for a male spectator and asked him to take the balls out of his pockets, I play it up and of course they are not there. I typically quip "They must be in your wife's purse. That is where I keep mine." In light of the walk away's, I changed that to, "There not there? Well I'm not a miracle worker, just a magician."

I was pleasantly surprised with the outcome of this joke change. It actually has gotten more laughs than the other line ever did and it could never be seen as offensive. I know Jimmy is big on family and kid friendly and I thought I was doing OK. Now I fully understand why. Having that group melt away on me with no recourse because I had offended them actually felt awful. I instantly decided that would never, ever happen again! (I also posted about this on my Diary of beginning Street Magician thread)
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 2, 2012 12:54AM)
For me though your rope joke was a) original and b) did not demean or insult any individual. You misjudged the audience....but the joke is a good one and not cruel in any way.

Danny
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Sep 2, 2012 01:31AM)
I have always avocated good humour more so on the streets, the streets is for every one and that includes family.

Apearance is also important, now in my show and as a lot of busking magicians do, the tramp is often portrayed.

The Tramp is by far my favourite clown character

Some of the Old Time greats also portrayed the Tramp in their performance, but this can be achieved and you still can be well gromed.

To perform as a Tramp one does not have to smell like one or do they?

While we are talking about do's and don'ts on pitch, bad humour verses good. I would encourege performers not drink or smoke on Pitch.

I have seen this, I am doing a show and in my back ground their is the next performer drinking a beer sucking on Fags. In my mind as a performer kids look up to you as a kind of Mentore, so even when I use to smoke I would not smoke on pitch and the thought of dinking a beer on pitch. Hay I have been saying this for years perhaps I am just old School

Bottom line is each to their own I guess, I do hear of pitches are getting regulated because of Insult humour, Granvel Island is one of them so hear.
I am in Sinapour right now and It is a rule no smoking on pitch never mind drink and for drugs, death sentance!

I guess I have a greater issue with Pitches being regulated than I do with Insult performers who smoke fags on pitch!
Dispite all I just said I beleave with a passion in free expression but then what about family and so I go around on this one.
I have learnt to hold my ideals lightly the streets are constantly teaching me lessons I thought I new!
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Sep 2, 2012 01:46AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-01 12:43, djurmann wrote:
I know some talented lovely kind buskers who would not hurt a fly. They use Gazzo lines like "I'm not your father kid, it could be any one of us". That is just horrid. Sure it works (in street) and everyone laughs. But it is nasty. This kind of stuff has started to leave the theatres. When will it leave the street?
[/quote]

Being as how I believe this horse has already been beaten to death years ago, I'll try to take us off-topic:

My "As Seen on TV" show was written with the goal of being able to pass the 1950's television censors and still hold it's own in today's world of sex violence and drugs plaguing our televisions. Proud to say my show is cleaner than an episode of "Happy Days", and still just as entertaining.

I'm really trying to incorporate more of that show into my street work, but is difficult because the street work is so much more fast paced.

Okay ... I just wanted to say that ... can now resume beating the dead horse. :)

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 2, 2012 01:56AM)
Hi Mario,

I'd love to hear how Singapore is working out. I will be there later this year but never dreamt of trying to perform....I thought I would get arrested! Anywhere you would recommend either to perform or to watch?

As for humour I think it is an evolving thing. Bear baiting was once acceptable, now it isn't. The jokes exist because once they were the norm. The jokes persist because they still work....but every year they work for fewer people and more people complain and regulation comes. For me getting some poor schmo up on stage and getting everyone to laugh at them is not a million miles away from times past when a trip to the lunatic asylum to mock the inmates was a fun day out.

Freedom of speech for the individual should not trump the freedom from insult for the majority. If I set up on a street corner and am really offensive, my right to freedom of speech as an individual should not supercede the rights of the many in the neighbourhood. This seems to happen a lot in many areas, the rights of the perpetrator seem to take precedence over the rights of the victim. Why?

Danny

(sorry went a bit tangential to the topic there)

Posted: Sep 2, 2012 4:22am
Sorry Joe Joe, I missed the dead horse first time around!
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 2, 2012 04:07AM)
I don't think there should be any law against this type of behavior, I just think it's irrisponsible and money driven.

like blareing an amp a block down the street to build a crowd....only a money guy does this.

an artist knows how to use an amp for theater.

once again I don't think there should be a law. but a money guy does not care if he burns that pitch for himself and everyone else, because it's all about him, he'll just find another pitch an artist opened.

you see communities like artists, so they'll let them work, then along comes "the money guy."

with his massive out of control crowds, vulgur insulting humor, and an attitude that everyone owes him money.

when the cops come, he's the first to talk about his "rights"

but what he really wants protected, is his rights to open business on the street without paying taxes, rent, or a business licence....the thought of himself expressing anything (art) only occurs to him when the cops shut him down.

sure the streets is for everyone, but shouldn't people like this have the common sense to book themselves some where, instead of making it hard for the artists and the communities?

I think the solution is for performers to band together and try and control ourselves, we know when we are behaving baddly, even a money guy knows, he just doesn't care, because he wants that extra few dollars he can make using these tactics.

I will say I have seen many instances where the performers have band together to try and stop one really bad money guy with reason, but he continued to raise cain in that town, so the performers finally just sided with the city and the cops and the whole town ran him out.

this is why I think "magicians" can't make magic shows any more....the intention was never to make a magic show, but to make as much money as possible.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Sep 2, 2012 04:16AM)
Amen.
Message: Posted by: leolaurindo (Sep 2, 2012 07:32AM)
Amen (2)
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Sep 2, 2012 10:15AM)
Amen (3)
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 2, 2012 12:32PM)
Insult humour has its place.....in a comedy club where the punters know they are going to see an insult comedian.

Take it to a comedy club where the guys in the front row know you are going to pick on them and are looking forward to it.

as for the rest amen (4)
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Sep 2, 2012 12:42PM)
I agree with the senterment.
I will express my anger if a big act turns up and trys to blow me out, that is just one side of it.
I also know and respect to many Artist that may fall under that BIG CIRCLE brush that would not.
I would hasten to add the circle show performers I refer to do not all use an amp but their shows are huge but it is an puer joy to watch them perform and an art build a show.

I don't know of any pitches in the UK that have been burnt out by big circle shows.
Qwite the opposite, I know of established pitches that have been built on the back of them.
One classic of which is Covent Garden, the circle performers have fought hand over foot to help save the magic corner.
Bath is another, their are tones of little and big festavles where both circle and door way shows coinside.
Look futher affield India huge street shows with history going back hundreads of years.
Morroco, Marekesh WOW let not right that off.

Some of the world Oldest pitches have circle shows, BIG SHOWS!
Real traverling shows who take their family with them and school them on the road.
Then you have the birth of Circus who origeons was born in the open air.
The first of which where traverling mintrals banding together to provide big show in towns they visited.

I love the history of street performing, I mean the whole bag not this modern take on it.

I love been able to get in a Motor Home and travel to pitches, more so I love the fact I can do so with my Wife Lady Vee.
I admire acts that travel with their family and kids totaly self sustained by passing the hat.

The fact is the way of life of Traverling Show Folk has been under threat for some time and I think we should defend it.
we don't want to forget about the broader family, Carney workers, side show perofmers and even grafters.

When I look at the diffrent avenues of our industry I cant help but think it all goes back to the traverling perofmer, all of it.
In my mind we cant turn you back on Show Business, in my mind we started it, lol!
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 2, 2012 01:01PM)
Loud and clear, the performers at Covent Garden are LOVELY. They have helped me, encouraged me and are altogether wonderful; some of the acts are definitely not Gazzo clones....and they guy who does Gazzo's act is ALSO lovely..... but I can't pretend to like insult humour and do think that greater originality (read variety) would be a good thing.....and now I will take my high horse and ride out of town.

Danny

NOTE: to perform in Magician's corner you do not need a licence....in the rest of Covent Garden you do. If you work or want to work magician's corner then you and me owe a debt to the guys and gals that fight to keep it that way.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 2, 2012 05:20PM)
Mario,

my post had nothing to do with circle shows.

this post was about behavior, sorry I thought that was pretty clear.

circle shows aren't what I was complaining about....unless they behave the way I described.

I've seen statue acts so obnoxious that they have been run off a pitch, but I'm not saying I don't like statues.

please read my post again.

for what my opinion is worth I totally agree with your post.

but, if you think the sort of behavior I described is the correct way to do a show, then yes I would finally have to disagree with you.
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Sep 2, 2012 09:03PM)
As I said I agree with the senterment.

Any one who knows me, knows what I think of obnoxius behaviour.

I don't want to be part of some Witch hunt so My post is to CLAFY what I love and what I think is worth while defending.
Message: Posted by: vernon (Sep 2, 2012 10:03PM)
Wish I had an answer that would cut mustard Jimmy.

Unfortunately I don't. Got a few things on my mind though.

As someone who teaches, mentors and is in that arena, I'm sure you see more of this than others ( the main push of your initial post). And yes, I realize it can be so frustrating and cause dispair. Dispair that the art of magic is being destroyed, torn apart, spat upon, and used solely as a money maker.

I interviewed Charlie for MagicNews TeleVision last year, and he gave a knowledgeble insight into his work on his cups routine.

I've been doing the cups for over 8 years, and took an easier path, therefore subjugating myself to smaller growth in the field of festivals etc, or respect from my peers, but acknowledge that and am at peace with it. Okay, I'm a hack... At times.

Nick once said, to change one bit every few shows. By the end of a few weeks or do, you'll have a presentation that fits more with you. But always at the back of my mind, is I need to pay rent.

Interesting thread, which is now a 10 pager... Phew!

I'll keep reading

JJ
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 2, 2012 10:12PM)
I miss you james.

I hope eveything is good with you.

your a good friend.

I've just been going on, running my mouth again.
Message: Posted by: vernon (Sep 2, 2012 11:50PM)
Hey Jimmy. You're not running your mouth. I think you have a very valid point. One that bears mentioning and creating discussion from. I have the greatest respect for you, and your philosophy.
I met up with Chris at Edinburgh and as a magician, it was good to see something else other than the cups. Which is how far it's gone I suppose.
It s endemic, the cups. As this is what I do, I've seen 5, 6 folks at Covent doing the same routine... Me included.

I , as said, realize my shortcomings, and now have my own larger picture to paint. Nothing to do with cups, performing, or busking, for my main income. Just it's taking me time to get it up n running...

I will add though that Gazxo did say learn it as rote, then once one understands the why it works, change it accordingly. To either suit your style or presentation. I haven't done much with it, but have those words ringing in my ears.

Last thing though. What I've learned from Gazzo, did make me better on the streets a lot quicker. I now have skills and understandings I can use in other areas...

I know this isn't relevant to the piece you wrote, I'm just extemporising...

Much love and Respect Jimmy.

JJ
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 3, 2012 12:35AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 00:50, vernon wrote:
I will add though that Gazxo did say learn it as rote, then once one understands the why it works, change it accordingly. To either suit your style or presentation. I haven't done much with it, but have those words ringing in my ears.

Last thing though. What I've learned from Gazzo, did make me better on the streets a lot quicker. I now have skills and understandings I can use in other areas...

I know this isn't relevant to the piece you wrote...

[/quote]

To the contrary, it's highly relevant, if those who are doing Gazzo "by rote" are actually doing it out of respect for his own advice, that casts a very different light on the matter, one that's glimmered in the thread a few times, if I recall correctly. Interesting...
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Sep 3, 2012 12:48AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-02 23:12, jimmy talksalot wrote:
I miss you james.

I hope eveything is good with you.

your a good friend.

[/quote]

I agree with the first part of your post.

Now boys, kiss but no tounges remeber its a family show.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 3, 2012 01:31AM)
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=189480&forum=6&post=4837882
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 05:38AM)
Thank you laurie.

I would suggest everyone click on that link.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Sep 3, 2012 11:30AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 06:38, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Thank you laurie.

I would suggest everyone click on that link.
[/quote]

I read it Jimmy, so what? I do hope Gazzo is ready for disappointment. As I said earlier, personally I don't copy gazzo, although I could since I own the DVD, the book, and a large set of cups. You can buy a pouch from Gazzo as well as a set of his cups from either Gary Animal or RNT II, so anybody can copy him. Somebody once wrote that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." It also downright stealing! The sad truth is that most buskers aren't, for the most part, copying Gazzo to make "fat hats." They actually want to BE him! They saw him get the audience reaction that they envision themselves getting, especially when the melon falls out of the Bowler! On the "Ever so Sleightly" forum, I believe it was, somebody came on wanting to know how Gazzo made the sound of air escaping from the tire on the wheelchair! Another was complaining that when they said the hat line: "Do you want change back from your nickle?" The person they asked said "Yes!"

Let's face it, Gazzo is Gazzo, and nobody else is going to be him. But they all want to be and that's why you see all of those copycats out there. Putting out a disclaimer like Gazzo did is not going to change anything. If he didn't want "copycats" he should have never released the material revealing how he did it all! We all steal/borrow/copy somebody else's material. There's not a soul on here that doesn't! It's what fits you and what you bring that makes it your own. Try explaining that to 95% of those performing poorly and you'll more than likely get a blank stare, slack jaw, and drool coming from the side of their mouth. However, as we used to say in the insurance business, "cream always rises to the top and let the dead wood drift!" The others will fail and keep getting slim hats while you and those like you who perform their own style/act/art, call it what you will, will stand out and be successful. I've seen it over and over again in different occupations. Happy Busking in Spain and fat hats to ya!

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 3, 2012 12:42PM)
Part of the problem, I'd say- in a slightly different fashion, if nothing else, than Sir Richard did ;) - is a new performer isn't necessarily going to understand that, when Gazzo says one can use the material and the lines and buy the pouch from him and get a set of Gazzo cups from Mr. Animal, he isn't including his mannerisms as part of the deal. Giving an earnest performer the benefit the doubt, I'd say Gazzo may have unwittingly misled them into performing as clones until they're able to transition into something else. And knowing there are professionals who do advocate copying as a way of learning, I'd suggest the Gazzo clones out there may very well be deserving of the benefit of the doubt in all of this.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 12:58PM)
Sir richard,

point taken.

I hope others will take mine for the sake of magic.

if your a magician then you should be able to make your own magic show.....no, really.

just think about how obvious that statement was, but folks are arguing against it.

every student I ever trained wanted me to teach them material, but I always forced them to make their own shows.....because I didn't think teaching them to copy a show would teach them to be original...duh.

the proof is that 90% of the guys out there are doing the same thing cups or striaght jacket hype show....mostly cups AND THEY ARE DOING IT COPY CAT.

few are even doing the over used stuff different.

even if you copied some poor guys street show that didn't do cups, you would still be more original than the 90%

even if you went out with a Svengali deck and a snapper and memorized the lines from the instructions.....

AT THIS POINT YOU WOULD STILL BE MORE ORIGINAL....than the 90%

money guys get this too, but they keep arguing with me, because they don't care about our art or even the quality of their work as long as it pays.

like children they'll say, well your not all that original either! or you don't care about the industry, your just insecure! or you don't know how to make money if you did you'd change your mind! or blah blah blah lie lie lie lie.

why don't they just come out and tell the truth about what kind of person they really are....then they'd finally get the respect from their peers that they have been seeking.

everyone respects a person who is good at making money, but don't expect a pat on the back if you don't put the same time into your product.

what worse is making excuses and name calling and false accusations.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 01:03PM)
Infact the rest of us who don't do the cups could all just clone the same show and YEP! guess what?

we would still be more original than the guy doing the cups with the same sequence and patter.

because of the sheer numbers of them out there wow!
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Sep 3, 2012 01:06PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 02:31, magicalaurie wrote:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=189480&forum=6&post=4837882
[/quote]

Ahhh yes - December 17th, 2006 8:36pm - I was right, we already beat this horse to death!!!



Look ... there are two ways to have the tallest building on the block. One is to build the tallest building on the block. The second is to knock down all the other buildings. Complaining about clones is not going to do anything to actually make your building any taller than it already is!



-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 01:07PM)
Joe joe this ain't about me, or my career, it's about what we do.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 01:12PM)
It's also about calling these guys on their c*** that their piling up everywhere in our industry, to brainwash new guys into their marketing scheme.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 3, 2012 01:15PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 13:58, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Sir richard,

point taken.

I hope others will take mine for the sake of magic.

[/quote]

jimmy,

I think others will gladly take your point, and have done so. I also think others will try to explain what they think may be a source of the issue you're focusing on. Doing one does not eliminate the other in this discussion.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Sep 3, 2012 01:45PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 13:58, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Sir richard,

point taken.

I hope others will take mine for the sake of magic.

if your a magician then you should be able to make your own magic show.....no, really.

just think about how obvious that statement was, but folks are arguing against it.

every student I ever trained wanted me to teach them material, but I always forced them to make their own shows.....because I didn't think teaching them to copy a show would teach them to be original...duh.

the proof is that 90% of the guys out there are doing the same thing cups or striaght jacket hype show....mostly cups AND THEY ARE DOING IT COPY CAT.

few are even doing the over used stuff different.

even if you copied some poor guys street show that didn't do cups, you would still be more original than the 90%

even if you went out with a Svengali deck and a snapper and memorized the lines from the instructions.....

AT THIS POINT YOU WOULD STILL BE MORE ORIGINAL....than the 90%

money guys get this too, but they keep arguing with me, because they don't care about our art or even the quality of their work as long as it pays.

like children they'll say, well your not all that original either! or you don't care about the industry, your just insecure! or you don't know how to make money if you did you'd change your mind! or blah blah blah lie lie lie lie.

why don't they just come out and tell the truth about what kind of person they really are....then they'd finally get the respect from their peers that they have been seeking.

everyone respects a person who is good at making money, but don't expect a pat on the back if you don't put the same time into your product.

what worse is making excuses and name calling and false accusations.
[/quote] Aww c'mon Jimmy! You know very well that a guy can make $400-$500 a year doing this! :)

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 3, 2012 01:59PM)
[quote]
Jimmytalksalot: why don't they just come out and tell the truth about what kind of person they really are....then they'd finally get the respect from their peers that they have been seeking.


[/quote]

Jimmy I may not like insult humour when used against the unsuspecting but I confess this type of reasoning p*sses me off too. It goes like this....."I know what kind of person you are better than you yourself do.....and until you agree with me you are a liar".

If you don't get the point I'll turn it around.

"Jimmy you are a just an insecure person picking on these poor Gazzo clones; you pick on them to bolster yourself not because you care about your "art" and until you admit it you are a liar. When you admit it you will at least get the respect from your peers that you have been seeking."

This is the same reasoning you are using against these guys.

Now do you think it is fair?

Fair is this: I can say I do not like insult humour, I can also say I would prefer to see more original routines, I can go further and say I believe your motivations are xyz.

Unfair is "your motives definitely are XYZ and unless you agree with me you are a liar!"

Danny
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 03:29PM)
Wow, no that's not what I was saying, I would be mad too. lol

I think the confusion is that I was talking about two types I don't respect, money guys and their ugly cousin the clone, both guys seriously don't care about our artform, they are just in it for what ever they can grab.

so first of all, I didn't say I didn't like insult humur, I don't like to use it in my show, but I like to watch it if done correctly.

I can't respect clones who say they are original or pursuing some altruistic expression, they should just tell the truth, they do it for money.

some do as you've seen on this thread, and they are respected for their income.

secondly I was refering to accusations made of me and my friends that some of these money and clone guys knew wasn't true, but said it anyway to justify their case.

if you tell a lie about someone you know isn't true to try and tear them down, your a liar and so you know what kind of person you are.

thirdly if your doing it for money, then the type of person you are is not an artist, but a person who does it for money. so they should just say that, don't you think.

but usually that's not good enough for them they want to be patted on the back for having a great show too, well they aren't giving acadamey awards to late night infomercials just because they make good money.

I hope this cleared that up. honestly this is what I meant.
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 3, 2012 03:36PM)
Fair 'nuff.

Danny
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 03:38PM)
How do I know they do it for money, well by the tactics they use.

and they admit it to me in private all the time, but lie about it in public to folks less in-the-know about working fulltime on the streets.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 03:41PM)
Sorry, you responded quick. my last comment was incase I still wasn't clear, but I guess you got me.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 04:06PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taPTqd8g7yg
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 3, 2012 05:00PM)
Hey Jimmy, mind if I copy your routine so that I can be original? just kidding just kidding. I've just been sort of stalking this thread with nothing intelligent to add, as I'm not really a street guy, mostly just a walk arround close up kind of performer.

anyway it's totally not relevant to the point of this thread but I thought I would entertain you with tales of my first (failed) attempt at busking. I say failed because while I had a lot of fun trying a new kind of performance, I didn't make any money.

where I live doesn't really have much of a place to perform, no real attractions or anything, but I tried some busking at my college friday. I set up in a section that, due to construction, at least 50% of the students pass through when they get to or leave the college, I set up in a large hallway because it was raining outside.

I started with a couple of card tricks because that's what I'm best at, to try to get people to stop, then went into spongeballs and into a couple rope tricks (because I only know quite litterally a couple) to draw more poeple in. then from there I went into cups and balls, trying my best not to clone Gazzo, but still using a couple of his less insulting jokes because they're just freaking good.

a lot of people were able to stop for just a trick or two but didn't have time to stay and watch the entire thing, but in the hour that I had to perform (was supposed to have like 2 1/2 but ran into problems getting ready) I did have one crowd of maybe 10 people, which went good till the verry end.

anyway I had a lot of fun but didn't make any $$ for probably a few reasons, for one I'm sure that the fact that people don't walk arround college looking to spend money comes in to play, but the biggest reason is I messed up the cups, kind of working on my routine still anyway, adding to it and trying to make it better, had to ditch the idea of pool balls for the final load because they talked against my cups and I couldn't shut em up, so I came up with the idea of a final load of sponge balls, seeing as I used them earlier in my show and I thought it would be fun if the popped back up, my biggest problem turned out to be that while it worked perfectly at home when I tried it, on the third one I loaded the not-so-smooth ball managed to catch friction on the edge of my cup and they saw it get loaded, they still loved the performance but I didn't get any tips. the basketball coach (I think it was basketball, the guys that knew him were just calling him coach) said something about having me perform at a game but I have no idea how that's supposed to work out, or if I'll even do it.

oh one last thing, Jimmy, I saw you on youtube quite some time ago and didn't realize it was you when I started reading this forum until your youtube videos were braught up, I'd just like to say that I'm deffinately a fan and your shows are incredibly entertaining haha.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 3, 2012 05:48PM)
Sometimes I just don't know what to say?
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 06:00PM)
Gary t

good job on creating a your own cup routine, but why not try and do tricks you already know.

when you first go out, you should only go out with the 3 tricks you have always done, that never fail, that you always carry with you any way.

don't go out with experimental stuff till you got a show put together, then you can throw that stuff in the middle where it's safe.

if your a card guy I would suggest for you to just do a card show and maybe throw in a non card eye candy sight gag. you can just do some sets over and over for days and weeks, till it starts to turn into a show from repetition...and don't forget to hat em.

I have written all about this in my free blog and also in my book.

thanks and good luck,

if your gonna start working the street, please choose another trick than the cups for your own good.

because there is so many street guys doing it.

we're magicians we don't need only one trick, we can do anything.
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 3, 2012 06:16PM)
Thanks for the advice, I kind of like the cups but I probably should cut them out just for the sake of not doing the same thing everybody else is doing, any advice on how to hat a crowd? I've gotten a few tips performing close up, but I've never really went out looking for them, I understand the idea of sort of bringing up the idea of tips throughout the performance rather than just springing it on them at the end, but I'm just not really sure how to do that sucessfully
Message: Posted by: Devious (Sep 3, 2012 06:55PM)
CARD TRICKS ARE BORING!
[img]http://i.qkme.me/3p7sf9.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Sep 3, 2012 06:59PM)
I would not argue with that man and do sponge rabbits for him!
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 3, 2012 07:03PM)
Card tricks are not boring, people love them, maybe the way you're doing card tricks is boring, but card tricks are not boring.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 3, 2012 07:08PM)
http://jimmytalksalot.blogspot.com.es/

go here I have a FREE instructional blog.

many of the folks who have take the time to study it have gone on to be full time pros with their own created shows.

it shows you how to street perform for a living, yet still be a magician...instead of a clone or a salesman doing a couple of tricks as an exuse to hold people to get money out of them.


infact you get see on this forum where it is talked about under the "if you wanna learn how to street perform" thread.
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 3, 2012 07:41PM)
Thanks
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Sep 3, 2012 08:08PM)
Jimmy,

First, let me say that I think you are one of the greats. Your magical skill, your performance presence, your courage to present an original and funny show that is extremely family friendly, are qualities that I respect in you. I hope to meet you one day and learn something from you. I know there is plenty to learn.

Now, I have a problem with anyone who says that they do what they do solely for the "ART." The truth is, that is ********! If anyone does something just for the "ART", they do it as a hobby or they are likely to starve to death or die of exposure. Very, very, very, few historical "ARTISTS" were famous before they met their demise. The truth is we all have to eat. We need a warm place to sleep at night. We all have to live.

We all do this for money, especially if it is our major source of income. That is an evil of the world that is impossible to overcome. I like to tell people that a happy, smiling audience having a great time is at "least" half of why I do what I do. The other half is 25% for money and 25% because I love magic. If I was out there doing it "for the art" I wouldn't need hat lines. I could just eat my own happiness and pay the electric bill with audience laughs.

I remember reading several times that the best way to be successful and happy was to find something that you love doing. Then get so good at that, that people pay you for it. The key word there is PAY. Busking is HARD work. It is as hard as any manual labor. Not a single person on this planet would do it if not for money and if they did they wouldn't do it long.

Finally, I want to say that in my mind, what you actually meant was that the copy cats and the "money guys" don't actually care about magic at all. They would be just as happy selling time shares or used cars, as long as they were getting paid. This attitude hurts our art. I can get behind that. I know when you love something it is hard to articulate your feelings when you are talking about people that seem to be trying to destroy that thing. I think we should Wand them to death instead. The magician's version of stoning. But that is for another topic.

A fact of the world is that if something doesn't pay you, you cannot do it for a living.

Good luck in Spain!
Message: Posted by: Devious (Sep 3, 2012 08:15PM)
Shakespeare Got To Get Paid Son!
[img]http://gifsoup.com/view4/1419106/getting-paid-o.gif[/img]
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 3, 2012 08:42PM)
There's no art without money
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Sep 3, 2012 08:43PM)
Listen to Devious, you will never get paid if you do card tricks. Why, you ask? Because, card tricks are boring. Allow me to explain, since Devious just thought it was so obvious you already knew:

First, an audience on the street has the attention span of a severely ADD 4 year old.

Second, you are standing at your pitch, the nearest audience member is 7 feet away, besides the spectator participating in your card plot. If you have a big crowd, the farthest spectator is like 15 feet away and you don't have a camera and big screen like Lance Burton or David Copperfield. No one knows what the hell is going on.

Third, everyone is turned off by card tricks because their uncle always did bad ones at the family get together.

If I am mistaken on any of these points or there are some that others more experienced than I think are more valid, please add!

I love all of you guys and just wanted stir the **** bucket a bit!
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 3, 2012 08:58PM)
I do a card trick?
Message: Posted by: Devious (Sep 3, 2012 09:01PM)
I will admit that I perform a sequence with a jumbo I.D.
I don't do card tricks, but when I do it's the I.D.
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 3, 2012 09:16PM)
Fact is I'm not a street guy, at least not at this point, I have a LOT to learn, but I've been doing cards for about 3 years now, which isn't long but I feel confident in my ability to entertain with a deck of cards, so what I'm going to do is put a routine together with cards, and work on the routine I used friday to get the rough spots out of it, if the card routine can't hold up to the other routine then that's that, if it does then I think I'll be alright, there's a festival coming up in october in my home town, its really right about the one time of the year that people are out and walking about in that town, I think it has something to do with the population of about 300. whichever routine works best for me I'll be using there
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Sep 3, 2012 09:23PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 21:43, Gr8gorilla wrote:
Listen to Devious, you will never get paid if you do card tricks. Why, you ask? Because, card tricks are boring. Allow me to explain, since Devious just thought it was so obvious you already knew:

First, an audience on the street has the attention span of a severely ADD 4 year old.

Second, you are standing at your pitch, the nearest audience member is 7 feet away, besides the spectator participating in your card plot. If you have a big crowd, the farthest spectator is like 15 feet away and you don't have a camera and big screen like Lance Burton or David Copperfield. No one knows what the hell is going on.

Third, everyone is turned off by card tricks because their uncle always did bad ones at the family get together.

If I am mistaken on any of these points or there are some that others more experienced than I think are more valid, please add!

I love all of you guys and just wanted stir the **** bucket a bit!
[/quote]Soooo, what about Gazzo's "tossed out deck" routine? I personally do card tricks and nobody's complained about being bored yet.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Sep 3, 2012 09:49PM)
Kozmo,

I would wager that you could entertain an audience with a pair of Chinese stix for 20 minutes so you don't count.

Chinese sticks are kinda cool though and on second thought better than most card tricks.

Devious,

I too do one card trick and it is I.D. just not jumbo.
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 3, 2012 09:51PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 22:49, Gr8gorilla wrote:

Chinese sticks are kinda cool though and on second thought better than most card tricks.
[/quote]

ouch, okay, that hurt a little.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Sep 3, 2012 09:53PM)
The thing is, any magic can be entertaining. I believe that you should do what you know best. You need to do 3 tricks so well that you can do them under any circumstances. Then you can focus on actually entertaining people.

Anyone can do tricks but not everyone can entertain.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 3, 2012 09:54PM)
Gr8.... Ok that's fair :)
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Sep 3, 2012 10:00PM)
Remember,

The I.D. and the tossed out deck are not card tricks. They are mentalism that happen to use cards as a test condition.

Gary,

The sticks are visual and fun. I try to do visual effects on the street. If they are not visual they need to be simple or get to the revelation quickly. Also, often when busking you are required to entertain people from ages 2-99. All the kids younger than 13 will not likely be impressed by card tricks. They will love some Chinese stix though. Especially if you make it happen in their hands!

Make sense?

There are some successful card guys on the street. I personally think cards are a rough road for busking. Try some simple visual stuff and compare your audience's reactions.
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 3, 2012 10:08PM)
Right, well cards are deffinately what I do best, I've deffinately got 3 tricks completely perfected, more really but that's not the point. I feel that I'm pretty good at entertaining people, just busking isn't my home turf, it's kind of new territory for me and it's something I've got to work at, you say that cards won't cut it, but I'm sure you'll understand if I have to try it for myself rather than just taking your word for it.
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 3, 2012 10:11PM)
Oh, I typed my last response before I refreshed and saw what was wrote last, you're right about the age bit, that's an obstical I didn't take into account, it's not really a problem where I'm at now but it will be at places like the festival
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Sep 3, 2012 10:16PM)
Gary,

Most of the guys here will help you out if you have any questions. Devious, Jimmy, and Kozmo are all helpful. I will do my best but I am not quite as seasoned as them.
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 3, 2012 10:35PM)
Thanks, I'll probably have a lot of questions, but I gotta perform more before I figure out what they are haha,right now I'm scrolling through Jimmy's blog, lots of useful information
Message: Posted by: Devious (Sep 3, 2012 10:36PM)
[img]http://photos-ak.sparkpeople.com/nw/7/1/l715655773.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 3, 2012 10:53PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 14:12, jimmy talksalot wrote:
It's also about calling these guys on their c*** that their piling up everywhere in our industry, to brainwash new guys into their marketing scheme.
[/quote]

Marketing implies sales. And only one guy mentioned in this thread sold anything so far as I know. Yet you're complaining about those who bought the product instead of those who marketed and sold it.

Jimmy, I hear what you're saying. I just think you might be trying to cut off your nose to spite your face.

You've clearly complained about Gazzo clones & cups and balls in particular. As well you've stated clearly you think many magicians just aren't able to create their own magic shows. As you put it, "isn't that what magicians do?"

But I'll bring it up again, only this time in the form of a question.

How many people have to perform Sonny Holiday's bits before they're, "Sonny clones?"

How many people have to lean over and pull out a cigar the way Sonny does before you'd complain about them?

How many people is too many to sound like Sonny (as many do with Gazzo's British accent)?

[b]Let me be clear,[/b] I'm not trying to attack you. I just want you to understand the not so subtle hypocrisy of your argument has not fallen on deaf ears.

Again...fat hats to all.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 3, 2012 11:07PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 02:31, magicalaurie wrote:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=189480&forum=6&post=4837882
[/quote]

Oh the good old days.
Message: Posted by: solrak29 (Sep 3, 2012 11:57PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 21:43, Gr8gorilla wrote:
...

Third, everyone is turned off by card tricks because their uncle always did bad ones at the family get together.

If I am mistaken on any of these points or there are some that others more experienced than I think are more valid, please add!

I love all of you guys and just wanted stir the **** bucket a bit!
[/quote]

Ok, I will bite and stir the pot a bit in the other direction...
as this is not necessarily true.

I think the only people that don't like card tricks are magicians, but
let's leave that for another thread.

I myself do a multi-selection card routine and/or a card to pocket
routine that plays into my act. I have received a lot compliments
and it seems to be one of the best parts of my show. The act itself
works as a sidewalk show that can work into half-circle show. Albeit,
that I may not be more or less experienced than you so your miles
may vary on my own opinions...but I am out there more often than not...

So not to de-rail this thread, but I had to respond to this so not mis-lead
the new guy on the block, let me bring it all back to the original post.

Cards, are just another tool in the toolbox that can be used to perform
and entertain the crowd emphasizing yourself and/or your character. So
this can be leeway to change this thread from a rant to a discussion of
ideas on how to make your show more unique. Perhaps, one solution is to
use those effects that others thought would never work on the street...
wait a second...rewind...someone already said that...

But anyway, here is guy doing card tricks on the street...

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFIIPrAmzbE[/url]
Message: Posted by: Devious (Sep 4, 2012 12:07AM)
[img]http://en.ideas4all.com/ideas/0000/1164/Tricks_to_sleep_in_office3.jpg[/img]

Do you really think laymen don't find them boring at all? Seriously?
I mean really? In the end it's about the repertoire and the execution.

So if you have the personality and some humour to deliver it in an
entertaining fashion, then I look forward to being brought back from
the dark side.

What are you doing to insure that your card tricks aren't boring?
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 4, 2012 02:16AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 00:57, solrak29 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 21:43, Gr8gorilla wrote:
...

Third, everyone is turned off by card tricks because their uncle always did bad ones at the family get together.

If I am mistaken on any of these points or there are some that others more experienced than I think are more valid, please add!

I love all of you guys and just wanted stir the **** bucket a bit!
[/quote]

Ok, I will bite and stir the pot a bit in the other direction...
as this is not necessarily true.

I think the only people that don't like card tricks are magicians, but
let's leave that for another thread.

I myself do a multi-selection card routine and/or a card to pocket
routine that plays into my act. I have received a lot compliments
and it seems to be one of the best parts of my show. The act itself
works as a sidewalk show that can work into half-circle show. Albeit,
that I may not be more or less experienced than you so your miles
may vary on my own opinions...but I am out there more often than not...

So not to de-rail this thread, but I had to respond to this so not mis-lead
the new guy on the block, let me bring it all back to the original post.

Cards, are just another tool in the toolbox that can be used to perform
and entertain the crowd emphasizing yourself and/or your character. So
this can be leeway to change this thread from a rant to a discussion of
ideas on how to make your show more unique. Perhaps, one solution is to
use those effects that others thought would never work on the street...
wait a second...rewind...someone already said that...

But anyway, here is guy doing card tricks on the street...

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFIIPrAmzbE[/url]
[/quote]

Nice link! Does anyone have any others?
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2012 04:17AM)
If the three tricks you know best are card tricks then do card tricks.

do what you love and the money will follow.

by the way the pitch he was on is hollywood blvd. one of the tuffest pitches to stop someone.

cellini told us that there were some who miss understood the statement, "there is no art without money"

when cellini said it he was talking to artists in the room, who were so wrapped up in thier art they couldn't even buy a new deck of cards or feed themselves because they were such purists they felt asking for money was wrong.

the fact is many in the audience are not artists and they show their appreciation by tipping and to not ask or take tips, does the audience memeber a disservice.

plus the magician has to eat. lol

BUT, the people who misinterpreted this were of course money guys who put money FIRST, they are the ones who will destroy any sort of artistic or theatrical wonder in their show to be more like a infomercial to maximize their income.

when cellini or another magician would call them on thier c**** the money guy would quote cellini to justfy their bad shows and mean spirited tactics to extort money from their audience.


and robert I've already answered you questions.

come talk to me when 90% are doing sonny's routine, right now only sonny is.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2012 04:32AM)
On the street in order to have a quality show and make money their has to be a certain order of thought.

first you have to create a quality product, then secondly think about getting paid for it.

not the other way around....like a money guy.

once again we are talking a lot about money and very little on creating a magic show, probably because of all the money guys showing up now on this thread.

so I guess it's simple.

the answer to the question why can't magicians make magic shows?

well magicians can and do still.

it's the money guys who can't make a magic show, because they can't figure out a way to make big hats with it like cellini or gazzo or sheridan did. lol
Message: Posted by: brianherb1 (Sep 4, 2012 04:47AM)
I have seen Solrak's card routine more than once on the street, and I can vouch that it captivates the audience even on extremely hectic pitches. I think in order to perform cards on the street you just have to have a creative or inventive presentation that makes the whole concept easy to grasp, which Solrak has definitely done.

I also use cards in my routine, but I integrate it into a chain escape so that there is a motivation for it to happen. Finding the signed card is the reason that I need to escape in a minute and that adds tension to the performance.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Sep 4, 2012 05:36AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 23:36, Devious wrote:
[img]http://photos-ak.sparkpeople.com/nw/7/1/l715655773.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

If I had five dollars and Chuck Norris had five dollars, I would have ten dollars because Chuck Norris would never take someone else's money.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 4, 2012 07:13AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 05:17, jimmy talksalot wrote:

and robert I've already answered you questions.

come talk to me when 90% are doing sonny's routine, right now only sonny is.
[/quote]

Perhaps the emperor should get himself a new wardrobe then?
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Sep 4, 2012 07:50AM)
Earlier I said that someone once said "Find something you love and get so good at it that people pay you for it and you will love your job."

Jimmy, are you saying that the money guys should leave magic and go into money brokering?

I will say again that so far every "good" care trick that has been mentioned was a mentalism effect that uses cards for the presentation of the magician's mind reading ability. They are not card tricks like ACR. Excluding the YouTube video and or Solrk card routine because, I haven't seen them.
Message: Posted by: solrak29 (Sep 4, 2012 08:08AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 01:07, Devious wrote:
...In the end it's about the repertoire and the execution.

So if you have the personality and some humour to deliver it in an
entertaining fashion...

What are you doing to insure that your card tricks aren't boring?
[/quote]



That's the 100 Million Dollar question isn't it? Though, I think you answered
the question yourself before you asked it. Yet, I would say that the question
should be expanded to, "what do you do to make any piece of magic entertaining?".

Because, it is this component that acts as a catalyst and/or one of many
reason behind the overuse of certain props and act stealing. Let's face it,
it's inherently hard to make any effect entertaining, its even harder to make
an act entertaining. What makes it entertaining? Work...lots of hard work.
At least for me it does and if you don't do the work that it requires...
it may tempt you to do what this thread's subject is all about...

Since the subject of this whole thread is focused on Gazzo, I submit
some footage of him here where he is doing a card "trick"...

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTmyKzFQQeE[/url]

The study of this could probably help give you a clue on how to
make it entertaining let alone being something that can play on
the streets. Notice that the elements of making it entertaining
are practically the same elements that makes his cups entertaining.
I think the study of the whole video can give you some clues on how
to street perform...not to steal his act, but understand what makes
it work.

Another performer, probably lesser known to the those on this board
is seen here performing a card "trick", to perhaps to a larger audience.
Studying this can also probably provide some hints on what makes it work?
But it also shows that cards do work on the street.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rp5EjacCAI&feature=related[/url]

In the end you have to ask yourself, are these two act's entertaining?
Is it really the props and/or effects involved? Or does it just boil
down to [b]YOU[/b].
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 4, 2012 08:26AM)
Wrong.... cellini meant that if youre working at a job and not working on your art your art suffers....PERIOD...I spent a lot of time with cellini and knew him well and that's exactly what he meant. I wasnt one of those guys who who meet him once and said "I knew cellini"

this money guy ting is total nonsense.....
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 4, 2012 08:39AM)
What exactly I money guy anyways? are we saying that people who are successful don't care about their art as mcuh as the poor guy who cant feed their familys? Its totl nonsense....just a boat load of crap!

Butterfly man was one of the greatest street perfromers ever...creative, cared about art as much as anyone....worked really hard

Retired and bought a house in hawaii...clearly a money guy
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2012 09:06AM)
First off I was doing magic proffessionally long long before you even learned magic, this s according to what you and the rest of the guys includng cellini told me hen I met you.

you started street performing proffessionally, at best one year before me.

secondly, I knew cellini, granted not as well as you but I knew him. in fact the whole time I knew him he complained to us about you.

claiming I met him only once is a joke.


third, more importantly, I grew up around his students and was very familiar with his views, which impressed him everytme we talked.

I heard from - his - mouth - that you, kozmo, were the THE ONE that misinterpreted this statement and how.

infact til the day he died, he complained about you, your methods, and your person.

this can be verified not just buy me, but anyone who knew him especially his students.

lets not open a can of worms shall we.

before you post I am going to send you a pm, please read it, you may actually be sympathetic to something that has happened to me and why I'm spouting off,

if you are, I will go away for good for you and stop telling people about the past.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2012 09:10AM)
Give me a mnute to write it.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 4, 2012 09:28AM)
Cellini was one of the greatest gifts I have ever been given. However we didn't end good. It was a business thing and it just sucked. But I loved Cellini to the day he died and I miss him to this day. It's my greatest regret that I didn't fix it.

But cellini was a gypsy and truly didn't get the world. He taught me a lot. But the biggest lesson was how to be free. If in fact Cellini said things about me to you it was out of
Frustration. Which I understand.

Bu I'm confident in the meaning of that statement...there's no art without money. I know this for a fact......
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2012 09:40AM)
Wow thanks for the honesty.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2012 09:46AM)
By the way gypsies get the world better than you might think.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 4, 2012 09:50AM)
It's not a critism
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2012 09:53AM)
Fair enough
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 4, 2012 09:58AM)
[quote]
Devious wrote:


What are you doing to insure that your card tricks aren't boring?
[/quote]
By making fun of the boring ones and showing how transparent they are all the while fooling the pants or other garments off watchers.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Sep 4, 2012 11:30AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 10:28, Kozmo wrote:
...there's no art without money. I know this for a fact......
[/quote]

There's much truth to this statement, without money the "artist" cannot continue to display his/her art. Jimmy, let's face it, it's not "making money" that's at the nub of this. It's not even "making a lot of money," who wouldn't want to do that? Buskers hope for fat hats, right? What the nub of the problem here is that the people/acts that trouble you are all of the Gazzo copycats and when you discuss it with them they are coming up with the old adage that "the ends justifies the means." So here's a question that I fervently hope you will answer: Do these discussions take place as a result of them coming to you for criticism or advice? If not, then it's never going to work. However if they ask you then you are obligated to tell them what you think, how you feel, and hopefully all in a positive vein.

Whenever I or somebody else asks my mentor what he thought of a certain trick, routine, or show, most of the time he qualifies his answer by asking them this question: "Do you want me to be honest, or just try to make you feel good?" When he asks that you know that odds are really good you're not going to like what you hear, but it's probably what you need to hear. He then starts out with something that he liked, or a positive if possible. Then he points out what he saw as a trouble spot/spots. Once, during a "stage competition" at our club I did Cellini's version of Cups & Balls. On the ride back home I asked him what he thought of it. After the preliminary question back from him I responded that I wanted the truth...and gritted my teeth. This is what he told me.

"Rick, that act is not you! Cellini used some "blue" material that doesn't fit your persona. You're better than that and I hope you take it to heart and do something more fitting to who you are." How could I argue with that? I do understand your frustration Jimmy, however people like that will always be around us, just keep on doing what you're doing and maybe they'll understand...just hope they don't become "Jimmy clones!" :wow:

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Sep 4, 2012 11:57AM)
[img]http://img.skitch.com/20100909-f76tu7pgsq1f7fsh8bintij7ye.render.png[/img]
I once saw a picture of Cellini,
I met Cellini and showed it to him, he said, "No, that's Richard Timothy Sullivan".
He went ahead and autographed it anyway....
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2012 12:08PM)
Thank you sir richard.

I have something for everyone to think about.

please read this very closely, it is very subtle:

-of course, we need to make money when we go out there.

BUT.

our motive, our goal, our aim, should be the quality of our show *FIRST*

this is the most important thing.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Sep 4, 2012 12:11PM)
And yes the thread was made because of the overwhelming emails and people contacting me that were all doing the same thing and asking me if it was original.


any way I'm going to sign off for a while.

thanks for listening.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Sep 4, 2012 12:17PM)
Don't let Kozmo scare you off Jimmy.
I know stuff too.....
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 4, 2012 12:24PM)
Ironically my full time job in the quality area. Quality is best defined as meeting the needs of your Customers. If customers are happy with orginal shows, or they're happy with clones (of whatever variety)...ultimately it's up to the customer.

Going back to the painter analogy. There will always be people wanting Elvis on Black Velvet, or Dogs Playing Poker. Jimmy, you want us all to be creating (or working towards) original works on par with the Picasso.

But regardless of how customers' needs are being met, those producing are in it to make money. They seek to fulfill customer needs in order to make money.

The two go hand in hand...meet or exceed customer needs, make more money. Make money by satisfying customer needs.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 4, 2012 12:34PM)
[quote]
Kozmo wrote:
Cellini was one of the greatest gifts I have ever been given. However we didn't end good. It was a business thing and it just sucked.
[/quote]

So when money is involved character, friendship, being a good dude to one another goes out the window?
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 4, 2012 01:15PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 23:11, Gary T. wrote:
Oh, I typed my last response before I refreshed and saw what was wrote last, you're right about the age bit, that's an obstical I didn't take into account, it's not really a problem where I'm at now but it will be at places like the festival
[/quote]

Gary,

3d rabbits are more than worth considering here for those you think cards won't fly for! :bunny2: Best wishes. :)
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 4, 2012 01:19PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 23:36, Devious wrote:
[img]http://photos-ak.sparkpeople.com/nw/7/1/l715655773.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Ha! :hysteric:
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 4, 2012 01:22PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 06:36, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-03 23:36, Devious wrote:
[img]http://photos-ak.sparkpeople.com/nw/7/1/l715655773.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

If I had five dollars and Chuck Norris had five dollars, I would have ten dollars because Chuck Norris would never take someone else's money.
[/quote]

That's something like what I was thinkin', ed!
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Sep 4, 2012 01:38PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 10:28, Kozmo wrote:
Bu I'm confident in the meaning of that statement...there's no art without money. I know this for a fact......
[/quote]

Of course their is art without money!
Art knows no boundaries or limitations, Art is the most powefull force of human expression.
I may be persuaded if one said "Their is no money with out art"
Think about it for a moment.
Art is the creative force behind all of what humanity creates, both what we perceive to be good, bad and money.
Mario

PS, May Cellini rest in peace.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 4, 2012 01:48PM)
No fatthatter....It doesn't ....who sad anyone was wrong. I know who was wrong but it shouldn't be discussed here.
Message: Posted by: Eduardo (Sep 4, 2012 01:56PM)
Somebody please send me a private message...
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 4, 2012 02:10PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 14:38, Mario Morris wrote:
Of course their is art without money!
Art knows no boundaries or limitations, Art is the most powefull force of human expression.
I may be persuaded if one said "Their is no money with out art"
Think about it for a moment.
Art is the creative force behind all of what humanity creates, both what we perceive to be good, bad and money.
Mario
[/quote]

Without getting into the semantics of all of this...Art cannot be produced without money to support it. Kid's drawing on sidewalk need to be fed and chalk bought. Buskers on the street don't go out day after day without sometype of money to support them.

That is why you sell your DVD set for $77, or enroll students at $357 for 3 days. You want to produce art, you want others to produce art...but money is needed to do so.

And, sorry, can't help it...Art is not a trait that drives behavior. Art is a product of Creativity. Creativity is the force that drives art, invention and more...
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Sep 4, 2012 04:31PM)
I've taken a vow of poverty, to annoy me, send money! :rolleyes:

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Sep 4, 2012 08:33PM)
Imgic, no need to be sorry!
I think this thread is now dead at least it is for me.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Sep 5, 2012 05:18AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 15:10, imgic wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 14:38, Mario Morris wrote:
Of course their is art without money!
Art knows no boundaries or limitations, Art is the most powefull force of human expression.
I may be persuaded if one said "Their is no money with out art"
Think about it for a moment.
Art is the creative force behind all of what humanity creates, both what we perceive to be good, bad and money.
Mario

--

Without getting into the semantics of all of this...Art cannot be produced without money to support it. Kid's drawing on sidewalk need to be fed and chalk bought. Buskers on the street don't go out day after day without sometype of money to support them.

That is why you sell your DVD set for $77, or enroll students at $357 for 3 days. You want to produce art, you want others to produce art...but money is needed to do so.

And, sorry, can't help it...Art is not a trait that drives behavior. Art is a product of Creativity. Creativity is the force that drives art, invention and more...
[/quote]

You have nothing to be sorry about. That's a perfect statement of the situation.

The problem is when some people lose sight of the original goal begin believing that the aquiering (sp) of money IS the goal.

Or as Harlan Ellison once put it; "You have to climb a mountain of manure (not the word he used, but the word the Café will let me put in) to pick one perfect rose at the top. And when you've made that horrible climb, you discover you've lost your sense of smell."
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 5, 2012 09:36AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 14:48, Kozmo wrote:
No fatthatter....It doesn't ....who sad anyone was wrong. I know who was wrong but it shouldn't be discussed here.
[/quote]

To my knowledge you are the first to use the word wrong and that is interesting.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 5, 2012 09:54AM)
Fathatter. Stop pressing Kozmo. Not only is it off topic (and that's saying a lot for this meandering thread). But it's also inappropriate. Kozmo is a stand up guy who, along with Jimmy, have done more to share and support others than you can imagine.
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Sep 5, 2012 10:35AM)
People wonder why I don't post here....
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Sep 5, 2012 10:51AM)
Kozmo I know, Jimmy I know, Gazzo I know, Cellini I knew...all to briefly...who's Fathatter?

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Sep 5, 2012 11:17AM)
A guy who apparently closes his eyes when his picture is taken!
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 5, 2012 11:34AM)
[quote]

Fathatter. Stop pressing Kozmo.
[/quote]

Inquiring minds want to know. Kozmo brought it up, I responded with an obvious question. For myself I can say that "it's a business deal" doesn't mean it's not still a people deal especially when a friend is involved.

imgic when I ask you a question you can blow me off.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 5, 2012 12:42PM)
Fat, you really don't realize what an @ss you're making of yourself. Was just trying to help you out...

Willing to bet Kozmo has forgotten more about busking than you'll ever know. He's a great resource, and has replied to PMs very graciously. By poking him in public, what are the odds that he'll help you out? You're cutting off a valuable resource..not to mention dailing down the fun factor of the Café.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 5, 2012 01:01PM)
If asking an obvious question makes me an ass well so be it. I would suggest that if someone doesn't want something discussed they shouldn't bring it up.
How much a person knows or doesn't about busking has no bearing on this imgic. I was responding to how money got in between friendship. For the record I don't need or want help from Kozmo, or you for that matter. If Kozmo chooses to leave this forum that's his business and as for fun, who made you the decider?
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 5, 2012 01:03PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 11:51, Sir Richard wrote:
Kozmo I know, Jimmy I know, Gazzo I know, Cellini I knew...all to briefly...who's Fathatter?


[/quote]
A man, not to much different from the others you mention.
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 5, 2012 02:46PM)
Money can easily come between friends. A friend of mine wanted me to go to his 40th birthday party in a castle £300 - I couldn't afford it and didn't attend . He didn't speak with me for years but we sorted it out (he still doesn't believe me, and in any event would have given me the money....which I would not have taken).

Money can easily come between friends. Perceived injustice comes between friends...and perception is different for everyone, and even Solomon could find it hard to judge. I would imagine EVERYONE here has fallen out with a friend for a time over a perceived injustice, and if you haven't then either lucky you or check your memory! Injustice just has to be perceived, it does not even have to be real. All this is off the original thread but sadly pertinent to the way it has gone.

Relative fame is irrelevant to this aspect of the thread. Humanity, compassion and realising that we all F*** up is highly relevant. If we are lucky we get time to make amends or clear the mess up. Sadly that doesn't always happen.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 5, 2012 03:07PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-04 13:34, FatHatter wrote:
[quote]
Kozmo wrote:
Cellini was one of the greatest gifts I have ever been given. However we didn't end good. It was a business thing and it just sucked.
[/quote]

So when money is involved character, friendship, being a good dude to one another goes out the window?
[/quote]

You presume an awful lot by posting that, FatHatter. For someone not involved, you used an awful lot of words.

Who said anything about either of them not having good character when money was involved?
Who said that either one of them weren't good dudes?

I was involved in some of the things with Cellini and Kozmo and BOTH of them were good dudes with lots of character and friendship.

It just seemed like two people with a very similar view of the world in some ways, and a very different view in other ways.
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Sep 5, 2012 04:09PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 14:03, FatHatter wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 11:51, Sir Richard wrote:
Kozmo I know, Jimmy I know, Gazzo I know, Cellini I knew...all to briefly...who's Fathatter?


[/quote]
A man, not to much different from the others you mention.
[/quote]The others have paid their dues, I don't know about you, however Kozmo is someone I can learn from. My only regret is that when he did a lecture for our club I was unable to attend. The other members told me what a great lecture I missed and are still talking about it. However, if anybody asks me I'll tell them what a great guy you are...I know you are because you told me so yourself. :bg:

Kozmo, please stick around, you can add a lot to this thread.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 5, 2012 04:22PM)
[quote]Frank Starsini wrote:
You presume an awful lot by posting that, FatHatter. For someone not involved, you used an awful lot of words.[/quote]

It's fair to interpret, "However we didn't end good. It was a business thing and it just sucked." as money got between us.
Did I get it wrong? Should I not have thought that?


[quote]Who said anything about either of them not having good character when money was involved?
Who said that either one of them weren't good dudes?[/quote]

I don't know...who?
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 5, 2012 04:24PM)
[quote]
Sir Richard wrote:

The others have paid their dues, I don't know about you...
[/quote]

That's correct Sir, you don't. So you won't be a liar I'll go ahead and tell you, I'm a great guy! :)
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 5, 2012 05:49PM)
I know I'm new here, and for that matter younger than pretty much everybody, but I think everybody should really just drop all of this business about the relationship between Kozmo and Cellini, the irrelevance to this thread is only of the problem, I didn't know Cellini but just from what's been posted here I know he's not alive anymore. Now I'm not saying anybody was intentionally saying anything wrong, but if you didn't know the man, and as such don't know anythng about what went on between the two of them, then by jumping in, making assumptions, and talking about things that you're not a part of, you're being disrespectful to the dead. lets steer this thread back onto topic and all agree to leave Cellini and his memory to rest in peace shall we?
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 5, 2012 05:50PM)
After all, the original people who were talking about it, and that knew anything about it, stopped talking about it over a page ago.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 5, 2012 06:22PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 17:22, FatHatter wrote:
[quote]Who said anything about either of them not having good character when money was involved?
Who said that either one of them weren't good dudes?[/quote]

I don't know...who?
[/quote]
It's fair to interpret "So when money is involved character, friendship, being a good dude to one another goes out the window?" as YOU DID.
Did I get it wrong? Should I not have thought that?
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Sep 5, 2012 06:32PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 18:49, Gary T. wrote:
I know I'm new here, and for that matter younger than pretty much everybody, but I think everybody should really just drop all of this business about the relationship between Kozmo and Cellini, the irrelevance to this thread is only of the problem, I didn't know Cellini but just from what's been posted here I know he's not alive anymore. Now I'm not saying anybody was intentionally saying anything wrong, but if you didn't know the man, and as such don't know anythng about what went on between the two of them, then by jumping in, making assumptions, and talking about things that you're not a part of, you're being disrespectful to the dead. lets steer this thread back onto topic and all agree to leave Cellini and his memory to rest in peace shall we?
[/quote]

While I understand your point, I think that you should understand that Cellini could probably be called the "Guru of Busking!" Yes he's gone, but the legend lives on through his teaching and DVDs. All of those on here that have been considered experts at Busking; Gazzo, Jimmy, Kozmo, just to name a few; have been taught by Cellini in one way or another. The man was superb at getting "fat hats!" That's the nub of the thread now. How important is the money? And in that, Cellini prospered! I still remember his "hat lines" he shared with me back in '79! Sheer genius!

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 5, 2012 07:34PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 19:32, Sir Richard wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 18:49, Gary T. wrote:
I know I'm new here, and for that matter younger than pretty much everybody, but I think everybody should really just drop all of this business about the relationship between Kozmo and Cellini, the irrelevance to this thread is only of the problem, I didn't know Cellini but just from what's been posted here I know he's not alive anymore. Now I'm not saying anybody was intentionally saying anything wrong, but if you didn't know the man, and as such don't know anythng about what went on between the two of them, then by jumping in, making assumptions, and talking about things that you're not a part of, you're being disrespectful to the dead. lets steer this thread back onto topic and all agree to leave Cellini and his memory to rest in peace shall we?
[/quote]

While I understand your point, I think that you should understand that Cellini could probably be called the "Guru of Busking!" Yes he's gone, but the legend lives on through his teaching and DVDs. All of those on here that have been considered experts at Busking; Gazzo, Jimmy, Kozmo, just to name a few; have been taught by Cellini in one way or another. The man was superb at getting "fat hats!" That's the nub of the thread now. How important is the money? And in that, Cellini prospered! I still remember his "hat lines" he shared with me back in '79! Sheer genius!

Sir Richard.
[/quote]

What are the requirements for, 'expert' status as a busker?
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 6, 2012 12:15AM)
When you're doing your own act, you're an artist, be it good or bad.
When you're doing someone else's act, you're a hack.

When you're doing something in between, well, you're kinda in between.

IMO, It seems impossible to NOT eventually be doing your own act.
Your environment, your history, your audiences, your skills, your personality all naturally transform anything you do into something different/unique/better. When you add confidence, character, interest and curiosity, the sooner the unique act will develop.

In closing...
Gazzo does the cups. Nobody seems to criticize him for that.
I don't think money has anything to do with it.
Message: Posted by: djurmann (Sep 6, 2012 01:45AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-06 01:15, Frank Starsini wrote:
When you're doing your own act, you're an artist, be it good or bad.

[/quote]

Hurray I'm an artist! Shame my hats suck though! :D
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Sep 6, 2012 02:53AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 19:32, Sir Richard wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 18:49, Gary T. wrote:
I know I'm new here, and for that matter younger than pretty much everybody, but I think everybody should really just drop all of this business about the relationship between Kozmo and Cellini, the irrelevance to this thread is only of the problem, I didn't know Cellini but just from what's been posted here I know he's not alive anymore. Now I'm not saying anybody was intentionally saying anything wrong, but if you didn't know the man, and as such don't know anythng about what went on between the two of them, then by jumping in, making assumptions, and talking about things that you're not a part of, you're being disrespectful to the dead. lets steer this thread back onto topic and all agree to leave Cellini and his memory to rest in peace shall we?
[/quote]

While I understand your point, I think that you should understand that Cellini could probably be called the "Guru of Busking!" Yes he's gone, but the legend lives on through his teaching and DVDs. All of those on here that have been considered experts at Busking; Gazzo, Jimmy, Kozmo, just to name a few; have been taught by Cellini in one way or another. The man was superb at getting "fat hats!" That's the nub of the thread now. How important is the money? And in that, Cellini prospered! I still remember his "hat lines" he shared with me back in '79! Sheer genius!

Sir Richard.
[/quote]

right, well I'm not gonna pretend I knew all of that being the noob I am. I just didn't like hearing people who weren't a part of it argue over logistics of why somebody had a disagreement with him. which seems to have ended anyway, so I'm happy. he is relevant, his legend and teachings are relevant, but the argueing became unneeded really fast haha.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 6, 2012 09:56AM)
[quote]
Frank Starsini wrote:

It's fair to interpret "So when money is involved character, friendship, being a good dude to one another goes out the window?" as YOU DID.
Did I get it wrong? Should I not have thought that?
[/quote]

Although the sentence you wrote makes no sense as read, anger will do that, I get your point and yes it was a fair interpretation.
Lets review: Cellini & Kozmo had a falling out over a business deal and when Kozmo brings it up to support something it's cool but when I ask a question it becomes the equivalent of passing gas in church.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 6, 2012 10:41AM)
I apologize all...I should have PM'ed Fathatter instead of derailing art vs. money points(along with all the other interesting subplots).

Since it appears Jimmy and Kozmo are taking breaks from this thread, and Fathatter seems insistant on finding out more...would suggest Fathatter try PM's to satisfy his curiousity and let this thread return to it's original discussion...
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 6, 2012 10:46AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-06 01:15, Frank Starsini wrote:

IMO, It seems impossible to NOT eventually be doing your own act.
Your environment, your history, your audiences, your skills, your personality all naturally transform anything you do into something different/unique/better. When you add confidence, character, interest and curiosity, the sooner the unique act will develop.

[/quote]

Spot On! I don't think anyone can perform a trick for any time withuot it morphing into own. One of the first tricks I learned was C&R rope...when I first did it, I pretty much did it move by move and used all the lines as my teacher had showed me. Over the years I've added, deleted, and tweaked the routine until it's no longer recongizable as that first time.

Oh crap...does that make me an artist?
Message: Posted by: Sir Richard (Sep 6, 2012 10:55AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 20:34, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 19:32, Sir Richard wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-05 18:49, Gary T. wrote:
I know I'm new here, and for that matter younger than pretty much everybody, but I think everybody should really just drop all of this business about the relationship between Kozmo and Cellini, the irrelevance to this thread is only of the problem, I didn't know Cellini but just from what's been posted here I know he's not alive anymore. Now I'm not saying anybody was intentionally saying anything wrong, but if you didn't know the man, and as such don't know anythng about what went on between the two of them, then by jumping in, making assumptions, and talking about things that you're not a part of, you're being disrespectful to the dead. lets steer this thread back onto topic and all agree to leave Cellini and his memory to rest in peace shall we?
[/quote]

While I understand your point, I think that you should understand that Cellini could probably be called the "Guru of Busking!" Yes he's gone, but the legend lives on through his teaching and DVDs. All of those on here that have been considered experts at Busking; Gazzo, Jimmy, Kozmo, just to name a few; have been taught by Cellini in one way or another. The man was superb at getting "fat hats!" That's the nub of the thread now. How important is the money? And in that, Cellini prospered! I still remember his "hat lines" he shared with me back in '79! Sheer genius!

Sir Richard.
[/quote]

What are the requirements for, 'expert' status as a busker?
[/quote]IMO it's the ability to constantly make a decent living Busking, to have Newbies to the Busking arena come to you desiring to be your students, and so on.

Sir Richard.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Sep 6, 2012 12:08PM)
This entire thread was an excersize in futility!
[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5vyYMuwcy5Y/TgoSIlZ0iiI/AAAAAAAACM4/sNF9b726xSY/s1600/yawn.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Sep 6, 2012 03:10PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-06 02:45, djurmann wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-06 01:15, Frank Starsini wrote:
When you're doing your own act, you're an artist, be it good or bad.

[/quote]

Hurray I'm an artist! Shame my hats suck though! :D
[/quote]

Amen brother!
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 7, 2012 12:39AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-06 10:56, FatHatter wrote:

Although the sentence you wrote makes no sense as read, anger will do that, I get your point and yes it was a fair interpretation.
[/quote]
I suppose anger could do that. Nice try, but calling someone angry is just common ploy of any internet troll. Nothing new there.
In this case, however, it wasn't anger. It was purpously repeating your original sentence structure that did the trick in making it hard to read.

[quote]
Lets review: Cellini & Kozmo had a falling out over a business deal and when Kozmo brings it up to support something it's cool but when I ask a question it becomes the equivalent of passing gas in church.
[/quote]
You didn't really "just" ask a question, did you?
What you really did was to jump to conclusions and basically accuse someone of certain behaviours and wrap it in the form of a rhetorical question. Again, nice try. So, no, unless you purposly fart in church just to cause a commotion, I would say they are not equivalent.


Perhaps you should re-read Kozmo's post about his feelings for Cellini and how it ended.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I think if you re-read that post, you'll feel differently.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 7, 2012 10:33AM)
[quote]
Kozmo wrote:
Cellini was one of the greatest gifts I have ever been given. However we didn't end good. It was a business thing and it just sucked. But I loved Cellini to the day he died and I miss him to this day. It's my greatest regret that I didn't fix it.

But cellini was a gypsy and truly didn't get the world. He taught me a lot. But the biggest lesson was how to be free. If in fact Cellini said things about me to you it was out of
Frustration. Which I understand.

Bu I'm confident in the meaning of that statement...there's no art without money. I know this for a fact......
[/quote]

"It's my greatest regret that I didn't fix it."

This stood out and is the base of my question. If you can fix something and don't then there is regret.



This isn't a contest for me Frank. There are no points awarded no prize won.
That being said...

I didn't call you angry, said anger will do that, and it will. Could also make one make no sense.

Mine: It's fair to interpret, "However we didn't end good. It was a business thing and it just sucked." as money got between us.
Did I get it wrong? Should I not have thought that?

Yours: It's fair to interpret "So when money is involved character, friendship, being a good dude to one another goes out the window?" as YOU DID.
Did I get it wrong? Should I not have thought that?

I examined Kozmos sentence and compared/interpreted it to "money got between us".
You examined my sentence and then compared/interpreted it to my sentence. WTF?

Yes I did ask a question. Simple one too. Surprised it's caused such a deal. There is a lot going on that I am not aware of. Clearly no one wants to enlighten the masses. You never know unless you ask so I did my part. I'm going to guess that those giving me the business for asking know more than most. The clam up is a mystery.


"Someone posted something that I don't like. They are trying to cause a commotion! Bunch of trolls."
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 7, 2012 12:21PM)
I think I understand.

Anyway...
I'm pretty sure what you consider a "clam up" is basically people just not wanting to go to a level of detail that is nobody else's business and likely inappropriate in a public forum.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 8, 2012 11:06AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-06 13:08, Devious wrote:
This entire thread was an excersize in futility!
[/quote]

I'd disagree. The parts about art vs money, annoyance of clones, and starting by imitating but growing into your own act...all the types of conversations I love to have with fellow magicians (though usually better with a few beers!). In addition:
- got some insight from Jimmy and Kozmo and other experienced performers: always useful to a part time wannabe such as myself
- found out Devois "knows some things too"
- discovered fathatter's character
- reaffirmed that Frank is a stand up guy

Given the 12 pages I'm sure I missed some points, but overall it's given hours of amusement.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 8, 2012 07:10PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-08 12:06, imgic wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-06 13:08, Devious wrote:
This entire thread was an excersize in futility!
[/quote]

I'd disagree. The parts about art vs money, annoyance of clones, and starting by imitating but growing into your own act...all the types of conversations I love to have with fellow magicians (though usually better with a few beers!). In addition:
- got some insight from Jimmy and Kozmo and other experienced performers: always useful to a part time wannabe such as myself
- found out Devois "knows some things too"
- discovered fathatter's character
- reaffirmed that Frank is a stand up guy

Given the 12 pages I'm sure I missed some points, but overall it's given hours of amusement.
[/quote]

All that and you forgot the best part of the thread.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 10, 2012 12:36PM)
[quote]
imgic wrote:

- discovered fathatter's character

[/quote]

Now I know that's not a shot, no way that could be a shot.
You're commenting on me being a want to know kinda guy. The kind of guy that doesn't let others perception about what is and isn't socially acceptable get in the way of asking a straightforward question. The kind of question others think to ask but don't act on. That's it right? That's what I thought. No way a shot. No way.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 10, 2012 03:44PM)
No shot...I didn't attribute any positive or negative to the comment. It's just the first thread you've been contributing to, and so others are learning about you. It's up to each individual how they feel about you.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 10, 2012 03:45PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-08 20:10, RobertSmith wrote:
All that and you forgot the best part of the thread.
[/quote]

I knew I'd miss something! What was it?
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 11, 2012 10:25PM)
The part where a spade was called a spade.
Message: Posted by: padre rich (Sep 15, 2012 02:24PM)
Lotta gass and water under the bridge here.watch voronin take magic shop props and transform them into art.young guys will always copy and grab the quick money.by the time they reach middle age they are either out of the game or embarrassing themselves.time wounds all heels.try to see the true light.as jack nicholson said,"be ready.you'll get your chance." quit looking back over your shoulder,just say,"so long,charlie..." and look ahead toward the finish line.
Message: Posted by: FatHatter (Sep 15, 2012 10:18PM)
Voronin is wonderful.
Message: Posted by: Herr Brian Tabor (Sep 15, 2012 10:20PM)
I like this post, a lot of food for thought. Jimmy, I've been reading your blog and it's full of great information and has me thinking a lot. Here soon, when the schedule permits, I'm gonna hit the streets myself. Everything in my show is mine. Maybe the plots are the same, but they're all my tricks with my methods and presentation. I ain't going to bother with a table for a while, I want to do doorway shows so I can do more of them and learn better that way. They seem better for my areas I can get to too. I do the cups, but it definitely ain't Gazzo's cups routine. It's my own version, with two cups, and no fruits for final loads, I do something weird and different. I love something you said in an article; "did you do your lifes work or did you do some one elses?" It was in a different context in the article but it applies to this too. I want to get full hats for what I made, not someone else. Thanks for the interesting debate and thoughts.
Message: Posted by: Herr Brian Tabor (Sep 16, 2012 12:23AM)
Also, I do a card trick in my show, it's something I've done for a long time. When I do it, people cuss and yell and exclaim it's not possible, etc. I've had so many people grab the deck and inspect it afterwords that now I just give the deck away after the trick. Not all card tricks are boring, they are just a tool for the performer. People are boring sometimes though.
Message: Posted by: FunTimeAl (Sep 16, 2012 07:16AM)
People are boring!

Best line in this whole thread :o) You sir, just won the Internet with that statement. Truth, in its truest truthfulness.
Message: Posted by: Herr Brian Tabor (Sep 16, 2012 10:30AM)
:)
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 17, 2012 02:16PM)
Ok, I'm bored. *poof*
Message: Posted by: Nutz4Tutz (Sep 17, 2012 03:13PM)
Going back to the original post of the thread. I must say, I'm a huge fan of C&B routines. I used to mess around with the Gazzo routine, I have then moved onto the Table Hopping 2 Cup routine. I don't close with it, instead I use it in the middle-ish of my routine. My final loads are bigger spongeballs, in which after a breif pause to allow the magic to sink it and the clapping is done, I immediately move into a spongeball routine. I like when my tricks are tied together, one flows into another, as though it's a story that progressively gets better. As opposed to a routine made up of "just a bunch of tricks thrown together".
For me it works and gets me money, I am one of those guys that's not a professional, but I am ALWAYS reading books trying to learn new stuff or come up with my own variation. Sometimes, whether it's because I'm just slow or something I just can't seem to get the results that I want to work out. Sometimes I come up with an idea that to me and other magicians might seem pretty sweet, but when it comes to the lay audience, it just doesn't play as big as some of the classics. There's a reason they're "classics" afterall.
With all that being said, I would say, to each their own. People who do the exact same magic as the next person, doesn't mean they're a bad person with bad intentions, it just means they run the risk of their audience not being as "wow'd" as they could've been, which only affects them and their hat size. So I say to each their own. The more the next guy imitates, the more likelihood I'll get a job from being different.
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Sep 24, 2012 10:38AM)
Somewhat off-kilter here, but in one of those moments of remembering (had a DUH moment) something I had posted on this thread back on the 28th of August, I remembered crediting, or rather miscrediting a quote to Shimada: "Magic is not tricks, it is a way". I meant to say that it was Tenkai Ishida.

Okay. I feel better now.
Message: Posted by: jimmy talksalot (Oct 17, 2012 09:36PM)
Is this who was argueing with me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Nym8ebHfM&feature=player_embedded
Message: Posted by: WilliamMckeehan (Oct 18, 2012 12:00AM)
That is my City... For now.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Oct 8, 2019 02:06PM)
[quote]On Oct 17, 2012, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Is this who was argueing with me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Nym8ebHfM&feature=player_embedded [/quote]

I do that Coke in bag trick in my kids show, fools the 3 year olds every time
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Oct 9, 2019 01:44AM)
One of the really great threads, here in the Magic Café.
People put in a lot of thought,..and 'passion'.
Most stayed and talked,,.
,..and stayed really 'respectable'.

Jimmy could really inspire and provoke 'thought'.
...probably mirrors himself. 👍

A great read. Thanks.
Gallagher
Message: Posted by: drmolarmagic (Oct 17, 2019 09:23AM)
As a teen growing up in NY watching many buskers and being inspired to do the same I never thought of the C&Bs as what you needed to do but I always wanted to do it kind of like emulating the big guys. Over the years I've taken it out and put it back in my street show but forced myself to come up with an original routine, using classic moves of course but with a story and color changes of the balls and I never do the hat load as a finale just multiple large loads over and over. I never thought I had to do the C&Bs to be a busker I just do it because I love it and hopefully may audience comes along for that ride.
Bruce