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Topic: Bound to please vs Tamariz
Message: Posted by: magicman491 (Sep 12, 2012 08:26AM)
Okay, so I want to learn the aronson stack. And I'm wondering if I should buy his book bound to please to learn stack, then buy Tamarizs book for effects.
Or should I just learn aronsons stack on his website. Does he have some handy tips in his book which is worth buying it or should I just get Tamarizs book and learn the stack online?
Thanks
Message: Posted by: Eric Richardson (Sep 12, 2012 08:41AM)
Bound to Please has his mnemonic system and tons of information on the built in features of his stack. You can't go wrong getting it. Also check out his free ebook available at his site and vanishingincmagic.com. It is great and free! I think Mnemonica is also worth your serious study.
Message: Posted by: SIX (Sep 12, 2012 08:47AM)
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=480042&forum=205

That may give you some help.
Message: Posted by: Uli Weigel (Sep 12, 2012 09:35AM)
If you're serious about mem deck work, the answer is easy: buy both and don't forget to buy Aronson's other books as well. Sooner or later you'll want to read them anyway.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Sep 12, 2012 10:01AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-12 10:35, Uli Weigel wrote:
If you're serious about mem deck work, the answer is easy: buy both and don't forget to buy Aronson's other books as well. Sooner or later you'll want to read them anyway.
[/quote]

This. :)
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Sep 12, 2012 12:41PM)
Yes! To be honest, I've them all and studied as well, Aronson and Tamariz. And I've a favorite: "Simply Simon" :). Jan
Message: Posted by: panlives (Sep 12, 2012 01:33PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-12 11:01, Vlad_77 wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-12 10:35, Uli Weigel wrote:
If you're serious about mem deck work, the answer is easy: buy both and don't forget to buy Aronson's other books as well. Sooner or later you'll want to read them anyway.
[/quote]

This. :)
[/quote]

+2
Message: Posted by: magicman491 (Sep 13, 2012 06:27AM)
Which one should I start with... I don't really want Simon's 'effects'... I just want his stack WITH Tamariz's effects...
Is simons book worth buying JUST for the stack... or should I just learn with the stack quizzer online? Eric Richardson is his mnemonic system really that helpful?
Thanks
Message: Posted by: baobow (Sep 13, 2012 07:22AM)
Out of respect for Simon, you should be buying his book if you are gonna learn his stack. He is one of the pioneers of stack work and some of his effects are some of the most devious and powerful that you could do with a stack deck, 'Past, Present, and Future', Everybody's Lazy, Histed Hiested, Fate, his approach the Birthday Diary Plot, Two Beginnings. I am in awe of the thought that would have gone into devising these effects and the mathematics required come up with these solutions is mind boggling.

If you are only looking to buy Juan's book, why not just learn his stack?
Message: Posted by: MagicJuggler (Sep 13, 2012 08:00AM)
The mnemonic system is helpful when you have a mental jam and you have to try to remember a card. Even when you have a stack cold this can happen, especially if you're tired. So instead of just having a number=card, you can remember the mnemonic and it will automatically remind you of the correct card. Also, don't write off Aronson's book just because you have a preference for Tamariz's book, there's a lot of really valuable information and great routines. Histed Heisted being one of the great tricks done with a mem deck. There's also a version of shuffle board using a memdeck that allows you to have two selections as well, so after the shuffles you can not only acurately state the number of face up cards, but quickly discover the identities of both selections using a clever principle that's inherent with the effect.

Though with the mnemonic system I did have a small issue transitioning from the mnemonic to the direct recall of stack numbers. The way I got around this was by playing a simplified version of solitare using the stack numbers instead of card values. After playing that for a while I got very good at instant recall of the stack.

But I agree with the reccomendations above: GET BOTH.
Message: Posted by: BarryFernelius (Sep 13, 2012 08:38AM)
Yes, buy both books. Oddly enough, you could easily use Tamariz's memorization techniques to master Aronson's stack.

Why have you decided that Aronson's stack is the one that you want to memorize?
Message: Posted by: Eric Richardson (Sep 13, 2012 09:01AM)
A mnemonic system can be helpful and my understanding is that Simon's system is more than adequate. I can't speak from experience because I memorized the Aronson stack by creating flash cards with an old deck. Juan's system is cool and I am sure it works well too.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Sep 13, 2012 09:46AM)
I can't imagine why you don't want Simon's effects. They are widely diverse in nature and include some absolutely killer stuff. As does Mnemonica. I am well aware that some folks have criticised the original built in effects in Simon's stack as being top heavy with poker routines. While that may be true, in his books are a plethora of other routines from fairly lengthy sophisticated stuff to very short killer routines. (I love Take Two, for example, and it can be done in a minute or so. Its in the Reciprocal Spell Pairs section of Try the Impossible on page 254.)

As my friend Doug Dyment is fond of pointing out, people vary considerably in how they memorize things. It's possible that mnemonics may not be the best approach for you. Although you won't know that if you don't try it. The Tamariz learning techniques are more varied and may or may not be effective for you as well.

I do want to differ with MagicJuggler. Mnemonics are just a "Learning" tool. They are not meant to stay in your mind. The same is true of whatever technique you use. Ultimately you should just "know" that the 28th card is the Seven of Clubs, etc. Falling back on the original mnemonics is going to slow you down and your thinking will be showing. A definite no-no in mem-deck work. Not to insult anyone, but if you are trying to perform with a mem-deck and you are still using the original learning tools, you are not yet ready. You have to get to the point where the stack numbers come to mind immediately when you think of any card, and the reverse.

That said, theres some good news about Simon's Books and Juan's Mnemonica. There are many effects which are based on the stack, but which can be done even if you don't have the stack memorized.

So my recommendation is that over time you should buy and study everything that you can get your hands on. Eric Richardson modestly did not plug his book "Oasis." But if you want to work with the Aronson stack and you don't have it, you're missing out on some great magic. The story routine "Southside Johnny" is a killer piece of magical entertainment. You don't have to have the stack memorized to do it, but you will have to learn the story. If you do, it will be a big help in learning the order of the cards in the Aronson stack. (That's a different process, by the way, from learning the stack numbers. A mem-deck worker needs to know both.)

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Sep 13, 2012 03:43PM)
I really do not get the point to say I want the Aronson Stack, not his effects but Tamariz' effects. Do you know something about his effects? I will add also "Twice as Hard" and "Four Part Harmony". Jan
Message: Posted by: Eric Richardson (Sep 13, 2012 04:48PM)
One of the interesting things about all the poker deals, etc. built into the Aronson stack is that they create useful patterns and possibilities. These intricate patterns run deep and can be used in many ways that have nothing at all to do with poker and bridge deals!

Simon has created some of the most powerful memorized deck effects ever created. They can be used with ANY memorized stack. Simon is mentioned all over Mnemonica. Juan also had him write the introduction to the book! Studying both men's work is the best thing you can do as you begin (and continue) your new adventure with the stack you choose.

Best,
Eric
Message: Posted by: pnielan (Sep 13, 2012 11:16PM)
Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
Message: Posted by: pnielan (Sep 13, 2012 11:16PM)
Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
Message: Posted by: pnielan (Sep 13, 2012 11:16PM)
Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
Message: Posted by: pnielan (Sep 13, 2012 11:16PM)
Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
Message: Posted by: pnielan (Sep 13, 2012 11:17PM)
Dennis Loomis is always right on regarding memdeck work. Mnemonics and all the Tamariz memorization ideas are tools to learning the stack, but they will drift away over time. But they create what Lorayne termed long ago "original awareness". Mnemonics is only one one way to do that.

The Aronson books are excellent and so great/fun/intelligently-written. There's a friend on the other side of the book. Lorayne started the tradition of depth in description, and Simon goes at least as far. I learned the Aronson stack first and switched to Tamariz because I wanted the transition back to new deck order and maybe stay-stack. But honestly, I rarely use those features. You can't go wrong with either stack.

Hope that Simon writes yet another book.
Message: Posted by: IanL (Sep 13, 2012 11:23PM)
Interesting. I've been learning the Tamariz stack using mnemonics from Aronson and Lorayne's Memory Book, without any idea of what effects I will learn later on. I'm not big on gambling routines... Worst case, it's just a mental challenge. I decided to just pick one and jump in, rather than worry any more about which stack to learn. Maybe I'll learn both eventually. One thing I've tried to do is not use Aronson's peg words wherever possible in case I do end up trying to learn his stack later. Something I did learn recently is that Derren Brown uses a different pattern of sounds for his peg words.
Message: Posted by: Steve Haynes (Sep 14, 2012 10:13AM)
I learned the Joyal six hour memorized Stack years ago and got hooked on Simons books soon after.
Tamariz then came out with his book and it was/is great as well.
If you really memorize a deck,i feel both are required reading.
Both have tons of effects that are not stack dependant(any MD will do)and both shine a light of brilliance in their own unique way.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Sep 14, 2012 07:32PM)
In addition to the mem-deck work and effects, Bound to Please's latter third is devoted to one of the greatest (non- mem deck!) hands-off mental card effects of all time: Shuffle-Bored. I think the book is one of the best magic bargains ever.
Message: Posted by: pnielan (Sep 16, 2012 01:08AM)
No idea why my last post showed up five times. Not intended.
Message: Posted by: pnielan (Sep 16, 2012 01:08AM)
No idea why my last post showed up five times. Not intended.
Message: Posted by: pnielan (Sep 16, 2012 01:08AM)
No idea why my last post showed up five times. Not intended.
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Sep 16, 2012 02:25AM)
But it's getting better this one showed up only three times :) Jan
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Sep 16, 2012 07:38AM)
To pnielan,

As my two ex-wives can attest to, I'm not always right on. But it was very kind of you to say so. You didn't have to say it five times, though.

The writings of Simon and Juan are quite different in style. Simon is a brilliant attorney and has a very organized mind. He is the master of explaining details. He may sometimes tell you more than you want to know about the inner workings of some of his effects, but you'll never be at a loss as to the complete details about how his effects work and how to do them. Juan's writing reminds me of Ted Annemann. He will toss out little ideas and not always flush them out for you. He doesn't take you by the hand and try to explain every little detail. He give you the broad strokes and you can fill in the details. Not that you can't learn the tricks... you certainly can. I enjoy both writing styles. I probably learn more from Simon and have more fun with Juan.

I think the final answer is that you should buy everything you can afford on mem-deck magic. Don't stop with The Aronson books and Mnemonica. Get the things that Mike Close, Eric Mead, Eric Richardson, Darwin Ortiz, and Allan Ackerman have published. (That's not a complete list, just the ones that come immediately to mind.) Then crack those books daily and get to work. The process will be fun and the benefits enormous. One other thing... don't leave the house without a stacked deck in your pocket.

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: volto (Sep 16, 2012 01:08PM)
I'm new to the memdeck stuff, so I'm going through the memorization process for the first time. I'm finding the 'flashcard' method helpful, and many of Tamariz' techniques - but I'm also using the Roth Memory system (as used by Vernon). Once you have the mnemonics, e.g. Hat Sewer, Cat Hill and so on, in your head, you almost can't forget them. Plus, you get a great improvised card coding system for free (see the Revelations tapes with Vernon and Freeman coding cards). I agree with MagicJuggler that mnemonics are a good standby if the other techniques let you down. Though I bet it'll cause me to pause and have to think, which is bad - but not as bad as forgetting the whole thing.

But I'm new at this, so this opinion probably isn't worth much... :)
Message: Posted by: drphil (Sep 21, 2012 12:23AM)
Volto what helped me was to write out the suits ace -king then their number then their mnemnomic name. In other words write it all out yourself. Then at least once a day work on memorizing one suit. On Mon. Clubs on Tues. Hearts on wed. Spades Thur. Diamonds. Then switch it up try 2 suits on Friday sat. and sun. Also learn them forwards and backwards and finally what card is before and after the named card its number and mnemnomic names. Another great trick is putting a mixed deck in stack order. By doing this you will learn what cards follow other cards. Before long you can easily restack quickly and know all the cards numbers and their mnemonic names and their relationship in the deck. Then find a card trick you really like that uses you're stack for me it was acaan and start using it all the time. Work on very aspect of the trick.
Message: Posted by: magicman491 (Sep 21, 2012 12:41AM)
Is an ACAAN routine mentioned in Bound to Please?
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Sep 21, 2012 11:53AM)
To magicman491,

Simon's contribution to ACAAN routines is in "The Aronson Approach." It's called "Any Card, Then Any Number" and would be a fun trick to do with a brother magician at a magic convention. This one made me laugh out loud when I read it. (I was laughing WITH Simon, not at him.)

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: Eric Richardson (Sep 21, 2012 01:45PM)
He also has an amazing variant with two selections and two selected numbers called "Twice as Hard" in his book Try The Impossible.
Message: Posted by: BarryFernelius (Sep 21, 2012 02:46PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-21 12:53, Dennis Loomis wrote:
To magicman491,

Simon's contribution to ACAAN routines is in "The Aronson Approach." It's called "Any Card, Then Any Number" and would be a fun trick to do with a brother magician at a magic convention. This one made me laugh out loud when I read it. (I was laughing WITH Simon, not at him.)

Dennis Loomis
[/quote]

Many years ago, before the memorized deck was widely known, I witnessed Michael Close and Eric Mead do a similar thing at a magic convention in Colorado. Minds were blown.
Message: Posted by: magicman491 (Sep 21, 2012 07:31PM)
To Denns Loomis,
What do you mean by a brother magician? literally brother magician?
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Sep 21, 2012 11:38PM)
No, not literally your brother. I was using the broader sense. You see, all magicians have a special bond with each other because we can talk about magic, including the secrets with each other. We can have good friends that are not in magic, but since we have to keep many secrets from them, the bond is different. Not saying that the magical relationship is better, just that it creates the kind of bond which actual biological brothers sometimes have.

In this case, I was referring to another magician that you knew well enough so that you could work on this effect together. One of you is doing some card tricks and apparently you do not know each other. You arrive at different times, introduce yourselves to each other, etc. But one of you becomes the "stooge" or "confederate" for Simon's great trick. You both have to know the stack numbers of a mem-deck.

To Barry... yes I can envision those two just frying other magicians with this kind of collusion.

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: Turk (Nov 13, 2012 04:12PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-21 12:53, Dennis Loomis wrote:
To magicman491,

Simon's contribution to ACAAN routines is in "The Aronson Approach." It's called "Any Card, Then Any Number" and would be a fun trick to do with a brother magician at a magic convention. This one made me laugh out loud when I read it. (I was laughing WITH Simon, not at him.)

Dennis Loomis
[/quote]

Dennis,

Thanks for reminding me of this great effect. I always passed it by on my way to the next effect in the book, namely, "Four Part Harmony".

After re-reading "Any Card, Then Any Number", my interest in the effect has been renewed. In this regard, I am thinking of combining Dan Harlan's "Speakeasy" principle with this effect to provide Stan (see the Aronson effect's description of Stan) with the "intuitiveness" to select the appropriate card location number. Dan's principle should prove to be a whole lot easier (and quicker) for a Stan to learn than would a memorized deck. Then again...maybe just forget that idea and go with one of Simon's numerous presentation/methodology variations. (grin)

Thanks again for the reminder.

Mike
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Nov 14, 2012 06:46PM)
Hey Mike/Turk,

Perhaps we can arrange to do this together some day at a convention. Or, perhaps we can be in touch in this forum about which mem-deck workers will be attending conventions this upcoming season and we can work out the details in advance. Could be fun.

Denny
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Nov 14, 2012 06:52PM)
To my fellow mem-deck workers:

Most of you probably know about the 22 articles about mem-deck work on my web site. Some of them were written a long time ago and I've meant to update them and add more. But, I just have not gotten around to it. However, I did make the time to rewrite the article on how I move around within the Aronson Stack using the Haymow Shuffle. (My methods would work with any mem-deck.) It will be up on the site soon, but if you just can't wait send me a PM and I'll email it to you. Please be sure to give me your email address in your PM. I've continued to work on this frequently since the original article was written and have a lot of new things to share.

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: Woland (Nov 16, 2012 10:03AM)
Thanks, Dennis. That's very generous. Your articles are extremely helpful and it is really great that you are willing to revise them.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Nov 16, 2012 11:08AM)
Kind of you to say that, Woland.

It's still early morning in California, but I'll be in touch with my Computer Guy and the first article will hopefully be posted on the Website by Monday. In the mean time, I have fulfilled several requests to email the article to other mem-deck workers.

Denny
Message: Posted by: Atom3339 (Nov 16, 2012 12:27PM)
Denny, Looking forward to this!
Message: Posted by: Turk (Nov 17, 2012 03:45PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-21 12:53, Dennis Loomis wrote:
To magicman491,

Simon's contribution to ACAAN routines is in "The Aronson Approach." It's called "Any Card, Then Any Number" and would be a fun trick to do with a brother magician at a magic convention. This one made me laugh out loud when I read it. (I was laughing WITH Simon, not at him.)

Dennis Loomis
[/quote]

Following up on Dennis's comments, I took a look at this effect and immedately thought about utilizing Dan Harlan's excellent "SpeakEasy methodology for use when Stan (i.e., Simon's reference in his effect) might not know any memorized deck and hence might need some help in ascertaining the named card's location. (Sorry, I don't want to be any more descritptive than that in this open forum.)

I then contacted Dan Harlan and asked him for some suggestions in writing a performance script for this routine. Instead of general comments, Dan took the time to write me out a script that would allow me to easily (and smoothly) incorporate his SpeakEasy methodology into Simon Aronson's "Any Card Then Any Number" effect.

I love the script and how Dan covered every situation and had the performance script smoothly flowing. Realizing the great value this script might have for the magic community in general, I then wrote Dan back and asked for his permission to disseminate this performance script to the magic community. Dan immediately replied back and gave the requested permission to disseminate this script to interested parties. [b]That said, please do not send me PM requests or emails asking for this script. Such requests via PM or email will not be responded to.[/b] Instead, I have posted this performance script in the Café's Secret Sessions section (under the heading of "Incorporating Dan Harlan's "Speakeasy" with Simon Aronson's "Any Card Then Any Number").

In summary, if you want to do ACAAN with a partner who hasn't memorized your deck, but you both know Dan Harlan's SpeakEasy, the following is how Harlan would do it. BTW, if you don't own SpeakEasy (you should), Dan has graciously provided us with a coupon code to get it from him [b]at 25% OFF![/b] His site is danharlanmagic.com and when you order, just type in the coupon code: memdeck to receive your discount. This discount is valid until February 1, 2013.

(Thanks again, Dan.)

Enjoy.

Mike
Message: Posted by: juggernought (Nov 28, 2012 11:35PM)
I have learned both stacks in the past, and have all of the books by Tamariz and Aronson. I would definitely agree it is worth getting both books if you are serious about mem deck work.
Message: Posted by: magicman491 (Dec 9, 2012 08:17PM)
Many of you say that some of the greatest effects with mem decks are from aronson- are any of those effects in Bound to Please? or are they in his other books like try the impossible simply simon etc.
Thanks
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Dec 10, 2012 03:40AM)
You'll find them in all of his books. My favorites are in "Simply Simon". Jan