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Topic: Tanked and the Magic Castle
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 19, 2012 11:12AM)
I just watched the reality Show "Tanked" and they did a life size "Houdini Water Torture Cell" fish tank for Neil Patrick Harris and the Magic Castle.

Well, besides furthering the stereotype that magicians are snooty, the "Houdini" was wearing a straitjacket, upside down, IN the tank - and not only did Neil approve it, he was gushing over it. He said he was going to make it a "destination" in the Castle.

As I am sure most, if not all, magicians in this forum know, you don't do a strait jacket underwater, and Houdini didn't either. On top of it all, Neil APPEARED rather vacant with his suggestions and questions. I know things are edited, and I am sure some of it, if not all was scripted. I am not sure if that makes it better or worse.

I am not a esteemed member of the Magic Castle, but as a magician, I find this embarrassing. If this is the best we have . . . ?

Why isn't a real working magician, or a retired magician president?
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 19, 2012 02:33PM)
Here is a video clip of it:

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/tanked/videos/a-tank-for-neil-patrick-harris.htm
Message: Posted by: Moxahalla (Sep 19, 2012 06:14PM)
Why isn't a real working magician, or a retired magician president?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll say one thing - Once NPH became the Castle President - he has generated ALOT of publicity on TV about Magic & the Magic Castle.

He is a true Hollywood celebrity, with a genuine love & knowledge of magic.

Almost on every interview TV talk show - Neil performs a trick and/or talks about the Magic Castle.

Now, what "working or retired magician" can do that?...and would the public even know who they were?

Neil gives the Castle credibility. The Magic Castle couldn't have a better Presient & Ambassador of Magic, than Neil Patrick Harris.

Just MHO.
Message: Posted by: Ian McColl (Sep 19, 2012 06:28PM)
EA - Alex Lyall(RIP) -Australia- did a strait jacket escape from within his water torture cell 1980.
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Sep 19, 2012 06:30PM)
As I recall, Norm Bigelow did the straitjacket-in-torture-cell presentation too ("Suicide Tank").
Message: Posted by: Moxahalla (Sep 19, 2012 06:48PM)
Chris Chalen did too (on his 1982 TV Special). Full view escape - no cover.
Message: Posted by: jay leslie (Sep 19, 2012 07:44PM)
KC

I remember Neil, as a kid, coming to Castle swap meets and playing with cards while walking the halls.

There is a LOT of action going on behind the scenes at the Castle.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 19, 2012 07:47PM)
Moxahalla,

I don't doubt his love of magic, "it's like the coolest hobby in the world!" As for his celeb status, I didn't know his name until the Genni article - which I am sure says more about me then him. Did he have to be president to talk about the Castle on TV and do magic tricks?

Ambassador - no issue. Board of Directors, OK, President???

From the non-magic reading I have done (today), the authors seem surprised he is the president. . . and the feeling I get is the Academy is desperate, while NPH seems to act like the cat who ate the canary (in this episode). I have no idea of the pool of people they had from which to choose. The Academy is a private organization, and they can do what they want. I am just amazed they picked him.

On top of that, he talked down to the guys from Tanked. Now I don't know how much of that was scripted, but he did appear rather aloof, and from this episode, not the sharpest tool in the shed. To me, this was far worse than his gaffe with the straitjacket. If the stars from "Tank" think you a little stupid . . . well they don't present themselves as mental giants either. NPH:"Are their magical types of fish? Invisible fish? Do they make those?" Now he very well may be a genius and a down to earth guy, but there wasn't much evidence of it on this episode.

As for credibility, I would think a star from a Harold & Kumar is the last thing the Academy would want . . .but I am not the academy, and obviously out of touch.

As for underwater straitjacket escapes, I was referencing a real or realistic straitjacket that when wet swells (as in this episode). Since I did not see these other performers, I assume they used nylon or some other material or design than one designed after an actual straitjacket? It doesn't really matter since Houdini did not do his "Water Torture Cell" in a straitjacket as in the Magic Castle's re-creation.
Message: Posted by: Cliffg37 (Sep 19, 2012 08:31PM)
Hi Mr. Cameron From North Carolina.

I am wondering, unless I am wrong and you are a member of the magic castle, what your interest is in who our President is? Why does it matter to you? If you did not care for the episode, that is alright with me... you are certainly entitled to your opinion. N.P.H. is our President. A few years ago it was someone else. A few years from now, it will be someone else.

Have you been to the Magic Castle? If not, next time you are in the L.A. area you will come as my guest and see the tank which is much better in person live than on TV.

Break a chain!
Message: Posted by: Ian McColl (Sep 19, 2012 10:39PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-19 20:47, KC Cameron wrote:As for underwater straitjacket escapes, I was referencing a real or realistic straitjacket that when wet swells (as in this episode). Since I did not see these other performers, I assume they used nylon or some other material or design than one designed after an actual straitjacket?[/quote]

Alex Lyall used a regular South Australian canvas SJ. No need for nylon, just guts to do it.
Message: Posted by: John Cox (Sep 20, 2012 09:17AM)
My report on the show with a nice pic of the tank (courtesy of the Magic Castle).

http://www.wildabouthoudini.com/2012/09/houdini-aquarium-revealed-on-tanked.html

As to the question of NPH, he's the man!
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Sep 20, 2012 02:46PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-19 23:39, Ian McColl wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-19 20:47, KC Cameron wrote:As for underwater straitjacket escapes, I was referencing a real or realistic straitjacket that when wet swells (as in this episode). Since I did not see these other performers, I assume they used nylon or some other material or design than one designed after an actual straitjacket?[/quote]

Alex Lyall used a regular South Australian canvas SJ. No need for nylon, just guts to do it.
[/quote]

Guts or beer? We know what you Ausies like your beer! As do we (well not me personally) but I mean us Brits.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 21, 2012 03:41PM)
Cliff,

[quote]Hi Mr. Cameron From North Carolina.[/quote]
Rather a strange salutation here on the Café . . . not quite sure if you are having fun with me or at me . . .
The Magic Castle is, in many ways, the public face of magic --even though it is a private club. Hence as president, NPH represents all magicians to some degree. No, I have never been to the Magic Castle, the last time I was in LA was 10 years ago, and only for a day. Thank you for your offer, and while I am sure the tank is awesome, it would not be the thing I would want to see there.

John, Ok, NPH is the man. Why? I really mean this. Can anyone shed some light on why NPH is a good "Face of Magic" other than he is a celebrity? Please understand, I am not saying he is not a good person, nor am I saying he is not a good magician - I don't know enough about him. What I do know is how he acted (and it could well be an act) and what he said during this episode -- that well could have been edited not to his benefit. The little I know of him does not convince me of that at all - but then, it is just the little I know. Please enlighten me. Your well-written article does not mention any of the things that I have, and I conclude it must be on purpose. As a big a fan of Houdini, I doubt all of it escaped you.

BTW, I am certainly not implying that I could do a good job with that position either - by any means. I am commenting as one might comment on a political figure, since as president, he is one.

I think I have framed my argument well, and have nothing else to say on it. I welcome any reasons (other than his celebrity status) to believe I am wrong.
Message: Posted by: magicbymccauley (Sep 21, 2012 04:24PM)
Okay, here are the reasons.

1. Neil Patrick Harris won the Tannen's Magic Louis Award in 2006.
2. He hosted the World Magic Awards in 2008.
3. He regularly performs magic on television shows like the Ellen DeGeneres show.
4. He is an amateur magician.
5. He is a certified nerd, and was an honors student before getting into acting (how many hollywood stars can say that).
6. He wanted his character on "How I met your Mother" to be a magician so that people could see that magicians were regular people and bring a public face to magic.
7. He is excellent at spoonbending and mentalism and performs regularly.
8. He has worked with Penn Jillete on many magic and non-magic projects.
9. He is one of the most sought after magical Emcee's, often performing magic while being an Emcee at events.
10. He is one of the most famous amature magicians in the world.
11. He consitently promotes Magic by performing on the venues he gets invited to, like the Tonight Show, and Late Night with Jimmy Fallon.
12. He has been performing magic since he was a small child.

Comedy Mentalism with Johnny Carson in 1990
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCC5rM_9g6Q

Performing TWICE on Ellen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNrkEq_wW3Q

Doing magic on the World Magic Awards, Flash appearance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKJOpYNey9M

Live with Regis and Kelly performing Card magic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYKqAr2CVNw

Performing Illusions on Masters of Illusion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l0oy-yh1QA
Message: Posted by: Cliffg37 (Sep 21, 2012 05:30PM)
Ok K.C.(no I am not having fun with you, I was adressing you by your name and title)

I read your points, I really have little to say, oother than if you were to look up the last two presidents before N.P.H. you would find them both very competant leaders who no one ever heard of outside of a very small circle. I dare say that N.P.H. may be the only celebrity President the castle has ever had outside the world of magic. That is, we have had presendents well known to magicians, but not well known to John Q. Public. The fact the N.P.H. has the status he has is not relevant to me. My only argumement against voting for him (and I did vote for him) was that he has his iron in too many fires. Between adopting a new baby, how I met your mother, hosting shows, guest appearences etc, when would he have time for his Castle duties. And yet he has neither shirked nor fallen short of any of his responsabilities that I am aware of.

I am of the opinion that with N.P.H. at the helm, more people have heard of and are aware of the magic castle than ever before. Example: A few years back I asked a co-worker if he was interested in my organizing an evening trip for some of us to the magic castle. This well read and worldly man who was not a magician replied... "Alright! Miniture golf! I am there baby!" Now there is a few towns over, a mini-golf esablsihment that calls itself by a similar name. Totally not what I was aiming at.

The castle is in an interesting position. It was designed to be and wants to be a private club, and yet our money is made by guests paying to enter, eat and drink. The more "on the map" we are, the better financial position we are in.

I really have noting else to share beyond that, and the fact that he is a nice approachable guy. Consider what I said about other presidents though... Have you ever heard of any of them before?
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 21, 2012 05:41PM)
Mccauley,

In giving me his "magic resume", the vast majority does satisfy me at all. I don't disagree with any of his accomplishments you listed. I understand this is why you think he should be president, and that is fine - I just disagree. The "Magic Louis Award" and I am interested on how he did that, but I cannot find it in a cursory search. He is comfortable on stage, as one would expect. I wouldn't call the magic he did in your links "incredible" in originality from him or in performance. He looked like a good amateur, which is how I believe he would classify himself. He isn't a pro (by definition) but he may well be better than many regional acts too. I have been told he is a good friend of magic, and I don't doubt it, but that isn't a reason (for me, anyway).

My issues is with his position as president and his attitude on that particular episode, his lack of knowledge, and APPEARING not-too-intelligent ON THAT EPISOIDE. If you watch it, you should see it. Cringe-worthy

All in all, it seems to me that you think he should be president because he is a celebrity and has a strong interest in magic. OK, I can accept that, since that is what I figured anyhow. I don't agree, but whom am I? I am not knocking him personally, or professionally. I do wonder about the Academy that elected him - that is all.

This is getting very tiring, and proving my point. Please address these points or reasons that he should be president . . . that is my question. Not that he is a famous actor, not that he can perform magic on TV.

I would like to hear about the the "Louie Award" - sorry, it is isn't called the "Louis Award", I'm sure that was a typo. I called up Tannen's and the guy that answered the phone did not know much about it - but he was a fan of NPH.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 21, 2012 06:02PM)
Cliff,

[quote]he is a nice approachable guy [/quote] As you know, many celeb's public personality is different than their private personality. In all the video clips I have watched of him, due to this thread, he appeared nice EXCEPT in the episode of "Tanked" where, to me, he appeared very "snooty". This could have been scripted -- I don't know. This episode, which was the sum total I knew of him save "Dougy Howser, MD", he did NOT make magic look good.

I assume you have been around him, and are personally saying that how he was portrayed in "Tanked" is not the real NPH, of which I am glad to hear.

[quote]And yet he has neither shirked nor fallen short of any of his responsibilities that I am aware of. [/quote]I am glad to hear he is more than a figure head, and is doing a good job with his administration duties.

All in all, he was picked because he is a celebrity with a love of magic. I understand the Academy has financial reasons to use him, and no, I do not know who the last 2 presidents were.

My new questions are these. The Castle must know his shortcomings when it comes to magic knowledge. Why did they not check what he was doing (i.e. straitjacket)? This is a national TV show, could have been a coup for the Castle. Why did they allow NPH to act so distant and be joked about on National TV when he spoke of invisible fish being made? Am I wrong to assume that they got an advance copy and could have had it re-edited?
Message: Posted by: Cliffg37 (Sep 22, 2012 10:33AM)
I can't really answer that K.C. as I have no clue what the process is that put that show on the air. I do know there are hoops to jump through if you want to do any filming at the magic castle, as most of the time film is forbidden in any way shape or form. What N.P.H. working off a badly written script? I don't know. Was there no script and he was on his own? I don't know. Who at the castle was overseeing the show? I don't know, and it may have been no one. N.P.H. has enough respect and clout at the castle, that if he approached the rest of the board they may have just told him to go ahead. As I said I was not in on this and have no way to know. I also don't know what anyone's motives were other than the tank builders who wanted an interesting show, and in my opinion got it. I don't watch that show, and would not have seen this one had it not been for the inclusion of the club. As such I have nothing to compare it to. It is possible that the goal here was to make "Tanked" look good, and no one cared how the castle looked. That may or may not be true, again I do not know.

A final word though... When you say he looked "snooty" and has magical "shortcomings" This is not a fact. It is your opinion. I am fine with the fact that you did not care for the show. Truth to tell I thought it was boring. (admittedly I had seen the finished product live before seeing the show, and that may have hurt my chances of enjoying it) But, whether we liked it or didn't is an opinion, and not necessarily the truth. Some people probably loved the show. For all I know N.P.H. was told before filming, don't be your "Doogie Howser" character and don't be your "how I met your mother" character. so he played it differently.

Anyway they filmed it, it was done and so be it. If you go to the magic castle web site you will find a page of contact info for the board of directors and you can e-mail any of them with your questions as they will know more than I do about the process that brought the show to the air.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 22, 2012 06:59PM)
[quote]A final word though... When you say he looked "snooty" and has magical "shortcomings" This is not a fact. It is your opinion.[/quote]

Did you actually watch the whole show Cliff???? NHP snubbed the Tanked people at several times . . . all obviously intentionally. As for NPH magical shortcomings . . . you don't think commissioning a "Houdini Water Torture Cell" tank with Houdini in a straitjacket a short coming in his magic history?

Obviously they don't mind, since the tank seems to not be corrected.

Please understand, if it were just suppose to be a magician, that would be one thing, but it is a tribute to Houdini by the Castle - Like Lincoln at Valley Forge.
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Sep 22, 2012 11:03PM)
Ok I have read this whole post and firmly confused.

first I have only been to the castle once and that was some time ago. great food and awesome magic and experience all around.

as for the tanked show which KC you seem to be stuck on, may I point out that is reality show. meaning this is not a show with 15 writers and 6 retakes to get it right.

second I don't think he came off snooty or stuck up at all actually I found him quite funny. I mean the whole idea of making them go out and get tuxes was funny. did you not notice when they were installing the tank no one was in a suit. point being the whole "needing a tux" was staged and a nice touch to remind any one attending that there is indeed a dress code!

as for the houdini tank what is the problem. it combines two of his greatest creations and truly looks great as a monument to remember the most famous magician in Magic.

as for NPH he is the president but he is also an actor. and he played the part well.

and I would point out that being an actor indeed has been a plus for the castle in drawing more people out.

that's my take on it any way but really I don't get why you are so stuck on the tanked show. its reality tv meant to be cheesy.

sam
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 22, 2012 11:59PM)
Stuck on it? I wish it a dead thread. I am just responding to you. I never said it was more than a "reality" show, but reality shows are often scripted and do have retakes. I don't think NPH needs 6 retakes as you do. For you not finding NPH offensive ( in this episode) . . . well that tells more about you, just as it tells much about me.
Message: Posted by: magicbymccauley (Sep 23, 2012 01:21AM)
KC, you are doing something in Philosophy called "Moving the Goalposts". You set out one criteria for something you accept and when that criteria is met, you raise the bar continually in order to make it so that the condition can never be satisfied.

>Can anyone shed some light on why NPH is a good "Face of Magic" other than he is a celebrity?

I gave you several reasons. All of which demonstrated his skills as a magician, his longtime affiliation with magic and magic organizations, and his consistent efforts to promote magic at EVERY chance he gets. He even had his character on a SITCOM be a magician, for God's sake!!!To which you responded:

>In giving me his "magic resume", the vast majority does satisfy me at all.

Yes, because you'd be unsatisfied with any amount of evidence. You're moving the goalposts. No matter the achievements or evidence it's not going to be enough for you. Jay Leslie remembers him coming to castle swap meets when he was 10 years old, which means he was a member of the Magic Castle for many many years. His first appearance on Letterman he did mentalism. He was bout 12 then! This is someone who's been doing magic (ON TELEVISION!) for decades and has tirelessly been a crusader for the cause and a member of the Magic Castle for years.

HAVE YOU been doing magic on tv since you were 12?

I don't think you're going to be satisfied with any amount of credentials for NPH. You simply don't like him because you're hung up on some pedantic detail about the historicity of a fish tank.

There is likely no one else as qualified to be the President of the Magic Castle as him. Along with being a true believer, a member for years, performing magic on tv while a teenager, hosting magic awards shows, performing closeup in all his tv apperances (quite well), being a huge celebrity with huge financial resources....

I mean... what the heck do you want man? Do you want him to tattoo a wand on his forehead and do 84 perfect faro shuffles?

He's the man, and everyone seems to know it but you.
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Sep 23, 2012 01:52AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-23 00:03, Sam Sandler wrote:

as for the houdini tank what is the problem. it combines two of his greatest creations and truly looks great as a monument to remember the most famous magician in Magic.

[/quote]

And those 2 creations would be what? I can only think of 1 in the picture I saw. But I could be wrong. There are people on here who know a lot more about Houdini than I do.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 23, 2012 02:48AM)
Magicbymccauley

Chris, I know you like to consider yourself a philosopher . . . but I actually have a degree in it. I would welcome someone pointing out inconsistencies in my logic (I am sure there are inconsistencies), but I am afraid you are not the right person. If you knew anything about logic, you would know that you can't argue questions. I never said he shouldn't be president, I asked why. This isn't an argument at all, and your statement about raising goal posts is invalid. Logic is about statements. If I said "NPH is a lousy magician BECAUSE he didn't know Houdini didn't wear a straitjacket in a Water Torture Cell.. (and I am not) THEN you could argue this. If you felt I implied it, you could argue it - but you failed to do this. This does not mean NPH is a poor choice, it means you failed to influence me. You could have possibly by elaboration on the Louie Award, which I asked, but you ignored that. The only conclusion I can make from you is it wasn't as significant as it sounds. Even then, being a performing magician is not a reason to be president or you could be president. Being on TV is no reason either.

Please understand my questions came about from seeing him on this one episode. I am not a fan of the type of comedy he is involved in (I am not making a judgment, here, I imagine it is mostly due to my age). In this one episode I found him quite lacking for the position IN MY OPINION. You can't argue opinions, questions or feelings, they are subjective.

If you were going to frame my questions as an argument (which it is not) it would be: A person who does not know their magical history, is constantly condescending and appears a to be a bit weak in the head should not be the president of the Castle. NPH is this, so he should not be president of the Castle. Now you can attack the premise: a person who does not know their magical history, is constantly condescending and appears a to be a bit weak in the head should not be the president of the Castle, or you can attack my conclusion that NPH is this (taken from a very small pool of data 1 episode). You have done neither. Cliff did. He stated that NPH is a nice guy in person, which weaken my premise. AN argument that not knowing about Houdini is not a big deal when it comes to being president which further erodes my premise, or you could say that NPH knew, but circumstances prevailed which woulds also have a negative effect on the argument. This is the type of thing that makes up logic. The problems are 1) I did not make that argument - I simply questioned, and 2) you failed to address it.


I believe you are a tad short of a full deck. . . I have nothing against NPH. I don't think he is a bad person, a bad actor or a bad magician - I don't have enough information to draw a conclusion. I just don't see him in the position he holds, and that is a rather subjective, and from what Cliff wrote, he is much better than I first assumed. I don't think you gave any reasons (except the one you misspelled) for him to be president. This doesn't mean he shouldn't - it ain't my decision. Cliff actually gave some solid reasons, and I respect that. You're acting a little love-sick. I mean, some of your reasons are really out-there.

Anyway, If you could compose yourself like Cliff I would probably take you seriously.

I really don't care to be proven he should be in the position he is in anymore, so don't waste your time - OK? Take another response if you must, but understand I am not reading it - not as a slight to you, or for heaven's sake NPH, but because this is tiring and by this time I don't think I will get a better answer than Cliff's, which was fine -as I stated. If you want to feel like you won - then go ahead and believe it. It was never a win-lose situation anyway.

BTW other people see it the same way as I do, they just don't want to post on this thread because of the likes of you. Oh, and learn how logic (as in philosophy or math) works.
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Sep 23, 2012 03:02AM)
;)


:)
Message: Posted by: Ian McColl (Sep 23, 2012 03:34AM)
I agree Dave.
well worded KC Cameron, I just wished I'd seen the show.
Message: Posted by: Kondini (Sep 23, 2012 07:53AM)
See even our Prime Minister has this idiot banged to rights. I shall def vote Conservative next time.
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Sep 23, 2012 08:38AM)
I like philosophers--real ones like the ones I studied under at the university. Tip of the hat to KC.
Message: Posted by: Cliffg37 (Sep 23, 2012 08:42AM)
Are we up to three or four threads on the "all tied up" forum now that having nothing to do with escapes?
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Sep 23, 2012 08:48AM)
Well, yeah...but at least things are active. We are often so quiet.
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Sep 23, 2012 08:51AM)
I think this one has digressed to Philosophy (or has it?) ...... But it is about Houdini - sort of.
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Sep 23, 2012 08:17PM)
Dave the two effects that I am referring too and that NPH decided to combine were his straight jacket escape and his chinese water torture escape.
its a great idea and a wonderful tribute to houdini.

as for the whole NPH being president wow I am just not getting how KC feels he is not fit to be pres after watching him guest appearance on a reality show.

the two guys from tanked played the role of misfits and not too bright kind of guys coming into an exclusive private club. NPH played the role of...well President of that club.

I wonder if NPH is the one that got them to build the tank and do an episode featuring the castle. hmm seems like he did another good job getting the castle some free publicity!

just my take on it.
sam
Message: Posted by: magicbymccauley (Sep 23, 2012 08:26PM)
>Chris, I know you like to consider yourself a philosopher . . . but I actually have a degree >in it.

I do too. So... okay.

>I would welcome someone pointing out inconsistencies in my logic (I am sure there are ??>inconsistencies), but I am afraid you are not the right person.

Doesn't have anything to do with my person. Just has to do with logic, and fallacies, that's all. It seems people here aren't that interested in talking about philosophy, or what fallacy I'm talking about. You can see the wiki here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpost

Specifically the thing which was illogical about your argument is the conflating of two different arguments which have different criteria.

A. No one can show me evidence for X.
B. Here is evidence for X.
A. I also require, along with evidence for X, evidence also for Y as well, which is what I was saying all along.

The illogic of this is that the person is claiming that their argument in the second portion is the SAME as in the first portion. In reality they are two distinct arguments with two distinct goals. (Hence the term "moving the goalposts")

You first argument was "Can someone give my any reason why he should be president other than his fame?"

Your second argument was "I've seen those reasons, but I didn't think his magic was that good."

These are two different arguments, the first one merely asks for evidence outside of fame. The second requires that he meet your personal standards for being a magician. Those are two different sets of criteria, and claiming they are both identical is fallacious and illogical.

You must first admit that you were incorrect in the first argument (are there other reasons besides fame), before we can proceed to your second, more subjective argument (does he meet my personal subjective standards).

That was the illogical fallacy I was talking about that you committed. That's all.
______________________________________________________________________________________________


>If you knew anything about logic, you would know that you can't argue questions. I never said >he shouldn't be president, I asked why.

Fair enough. I was talking not about that statement, but the one where you asked for evidence other than fame.


>Even then, being a performing magician is not a reason to be president or you could be >president.
You are confusing "a reason" with "the deciding factor." No, it's not the deciding factor, or I would be president, as you say. But yes it is a reason (other than his fame). Would you prefer a magician or non-magician to be president. Obviously a magician. So it IS another reason besides being famous.

>Being on TV is no reason either.

Being on TV is a very important reason, specifically if he's going to be the face of magic. And being on TV and performing magic consistently on TV in order to promote it as an art form is a VERY COMPELLING reason to choose him as president.

>Please understand my questions came about from seeing him on this one episode. I am not a fan >of the type of comedy he is involved in (I am not making a judgment, here, I imagine it is >mostly due to my age). In this one episode I found him quite lacking for the position IN MY >OPINION. You can't argue opinions, questions or feelings, they are subjective.

Agreed. You may not like his performing style, or his script. You may think his attitude doesn't become magic. That's fine. But that's not the part of the argument I was saying was illogical.


>If you were going to frame my questions as an argument (which it is not) it would be: A person >who does not know their magical history, is constantly condescending and appears a to be a bit >weak in the head should not be the president of the Castle.

Again, moving the goalposts. You have made many arguments. You need to decide on an argument and stick to it. Some of your arguments are true and some are false. Some are subjective and some are indeterminate. The claim that fame was the only reason to be president I have demonstrated as false.

As far as your other arguments go, I would categorize them like this:

1. Magical history: He may know perfectly well that Houdini never escaped in a straightjacket from a tank, and is doing that for promotional purposes. You need a better sample size than one factoid.

2. Condescending. NPH often plays characters with attitude or who are a "nemesis" sort of character. He considers it a departure since his image is so wholesome (doogie houser idealist). He has a show called "Dr. Horrible" where he plays an evil mastermind. So his appearance on tv shows may or may not reflect his true personality.

3. "Weak in the Head" I don't know what you mean by this. Are you a Psychologist that is prepared to diagnose him? I think this is more of an insult than an argument.


>or you can attack my conclusion that NPH is this (taken from a very small pool of data 1 >episode). You have done neither.

I was only concerned with that one point.




>I believe you are a tad short of a full deck. . .

Again, are you a licensed Psychologist who is diagnosing me?


>I have nothing against NPH. I don't think he is a bad person, a bad actor or a bad magician - >I don't have enough information to draw a conclusion. I just don't see him in the position he >holds, and that is a rather subjective, and from what Cliff wrote, he is much better than I >first assumed. I don't think you gave any reasons (except the one you misspelled) for him to >be president. This doesn't mean he shouldn't - it ain't my decision. Cliff actually gave some >solid reasons, and I respect that. You're acting a little love-sick. I mean, some of your >reasons are really out-there.

KC, the guy has been a magician since he was a kid. Performing magic on tv is very difficult. Many have tried and failed badly and he always puts on a good performance. He promotes it as a hobby and art on many popular TV shows. He's been a longstanding member of the Magic Castle. He wanted his character in his TV show to be a magician. Actually asked the writers to change that so as to promote it. He has won magic awards, is a magic collector, and has been a member of the Magic Castle since he was young, has hosted Magic Award shows, and is a major Celebrity, which is capital he can use to further promote magic. He also has a clean cut image and hasn't been involved in any Hollywood scandals (unlike most celebrities).


>BTW other people see it the same way as I do, they just don't want to post on this thread >because of the likes of you. Oh, and learn how logic (as in philosophy or math) works.

You seem very angry that I'm telling you you're wrong. I don't understand why that is. Usually people with a philosophy degree are told they are wrong by professors all the time and the shock and personal umbrage ceases to be that big a deal.

We can disagree and still be friends you know. And I don't think I'm some big monster to be feared. I guess people freak out in magic when people disagree with them or tell them they are wrong. Then everyone is just a sycophant and never wants disagreement and that holds the art back. I encourage you to disagree with me and tell me I'm wrong whenever you want to. It doesn't have to be personal like that.
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Sep 24, 2012 02:26AM)
Sam....

I thought that you were referring to the SJ, however, I am pretty sure that plenty of people were doing the SJ before Houdini - if I remember correctly his brother was one of them?

Not that he didn't make it more well known. But being known for something does not necessarily make you the originator.
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Sep 24, 2012 07:53AM)
Let me put it this way: have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
-Yes.
-Morons.
-Really! In that case, I challenge you to a battle of wits.
-For the princess? To the death? I accept!
-Good, then pour the wine...Inhale this, but do not touch.
-I smell nothing
-What you do not smell is iocane powder. It is odorless, tasteless, dissolves instantly in liquid and is among the most deadly poisons known to man.
-Hmm
-All riight: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink and who is right and who is dead.
-But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine it from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own cup or his enemies. Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet because he would know that only a great fool would reach or what he is given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known that I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
-You've made your decision then?
-Not remotely! Because Iocane comes from Australia. As everyone knows, Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
-Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
-Wait 'til I get going! Where was I?
-Australia.
-And you must have suspected that I would have known the poison's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me!
-You're just stalling now.
-You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means that you're exceptionally strong...so you could have put the poison in your own cup, depending on your strength to save you, so clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of you. But you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you wouldhave put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
-You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
-It has worked! You've given everything away! I know where the poison is!
-The make your choice.
-I will and I choose...What in the world can that be?

anybody else feel like we are watching this scene unfold on the Café LOL


dave I guess that is what I really meant Houdini did indeed take it to levels no one has seen. and to my memory I read some where that he was the first person to escape from a straight jacket in 1905.

I will have to try to find the book that I read this in or call my friends up at the houdini Museum.

sam
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 24, 2012 10:42AM)
Sam,

I got a PM about your remarks.

You're an evangelist!? Wow. You never struck me as one.

I have to really admire you, since most of the "Christians" I know are rather "non-excepting" of the life-style of NPH. Rather 18th century about it. Do you get much flack about it as an evangelist, or do you work in one of the more liberal churches? My dad was a pastor and shrink, and he could be a complete *** about it. He would have flipped if he knew about the adoption! Two of my friends were tossed out the church because of their life-style, and both had been highly respected deacons before they came out! I would think it would be hard to find work with your progressive views, and I am glad to see the church is continuing to evolve!

How do the churches where you work as an evangelist view your advertising that says that you also do casinos? Were you helping people overcome their addiction to gambling? Personally, working among all that sin would be too tempting for me - so I flee temptation.

I see you are a comic too! Well I can see that in your posts. Terribly funny! I bet your audiences are crying when they leave!

As to the straitjacket escape - No, Houdini was not the first to escape a straitjacket, but he was the first recorded to do it for entertainment. I am pretty sure most of the people here in "All Tied Up!" know that, no need to "find that book" or "call up your friends" up at the Houdini Museum . . . That's ok, when I first saw this forum I thought it was an alt-sex forum too. Boy, I'm glad I was wrong! I'm just a redneck.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 24, 2012 11:14AM)
Sam,

That "alt-sex" remark was just a joke - ok? No hard feelings?

KC
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Sep 24, 2012 12:10PM)
KC- LOL hey well first I don't want to hijack the thread here so if after my comments people wish us to go to PM that is fine with me I am never wanting to offend or "push" my beliefs on any one. God has me planting seeds not bashing others. those that want to listen I will share those that don't I will respect that.


as for NPH I am deeply sad that he has chosen that lifestyle but to hate him or belittle him for his choice is just wrong. God loves every one even gay people. I know I know some Christians just fell on the floor with that statement! I do not approve of the life style and God is quite clear that this is not a life style HE approves of either. as for churches continuing to evolve I see it differently. I see it as churches are forgetting that GOD is real and the bible is HIS word. they are not evolving but rather walking away from GODLY principles and basically saying screw you God, we know better! and for this there will be a price to pay!

do we really know better? I mean God created the heavens and the Earth and laid out the Law and yet for some reason today believers seem to fear standing up for our beliefs in the one true God.
to many Christians are Fans of Christ, but not followers. they stand on the sidelines and cheer God on but the moment God wants them to get in the ring and help fight they fall by the wayside and back away. God did not call us to be cheerleaders he called us to be Followers!
in James 1:22 it says---But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves.


as an evangelist my job is not to "save" people but to unleash the truth of Gods love and His desire to know them and love them and have a personal relationship with them thru Jesus and the Holy Spirit. and thru doing so you will have a place in heaven walking on streets of gold. This life is preparation for the next. the time on this earth will be like a blink of an eye, but we will spend forever in eternity. God is very clear about the dangers of living for the world and adopting the values, priorities and lifestyle of this world around us.

as for performing in casinos I see it more as a boost to my credentials rather then hurting me. most of the churches I perform or preach in have no issue with my performing at a casino any more then they would have a problem eating at tavern that sells beer or olive garden serves wine.
just because the enemy uses some thing for evil does not make it evil in and of itself. going to a casino is not wrong however if you let the lifestyle and addictions influence you then yes you should not be going there.

any way no worries my friend. but I still swear I read that houdini was the first to perform it. maybe it was he was the first to perform it upside down. no need to argue the point indeed. we all know houdini made it famous.

sam
Message: Posted by: magicbymccauley (Sep 24, 2012 12:59PM)
I'm also a Christian but I disagree vehemently with Sam and what he claims God says. But at the end of the day I can still be friends with Christians who consider it a sin, and at the end of the day Sam can still be friends with Christians (or non-Christians) who disagree with him and refuses to demonize people he disagrees with (unlike some people on here).

Kudos to you Sam for differentiating between arguments and personal attacks.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 24, 2012 01:13PM)
Sam,

Perhaps you should re-read this . . .
[quote]No, Houdini was not the first to escape a straitjacket, but he was the first recorded to do it for entertainment.[/quote] Straitjackets were not used so much to keep dangerous mental patients from hurting others, but to keep them from hurting themselves - something some of us could use . . . Anyway, they weren't designed to be escape-proof and patients did escape from them from time to time. Houdini artfully changed the public's view of the straitjacket from a tool to protect patients to an impossible-to-escape restraint.

Personally, I know many who see the magic we do as akin to witchcraft. Their take on it is "Why PRETEND to do something the Bible so clearly forbids?" Witches were bound and thrown in ponds. If they escaped, they were a witch, if they drowned . . . oh well.

I know many that see casinos as the pits of Hell, and anything to attract people to gambling and other vices is of Satan. I'll keep you in my prayers!
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Sep 24, 2012 01:17PM)
KC I was not disagreeing with you I said yes he made it famous. we agree! :)

oh boy I guess I should not tell you that I go play texas hold em 2 times a month at my friends house. oh by the way he is the youth pastor LOL

I am very clear in all my shows that what I do is a trick and what god does is a miracle.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 24, 2012 01:29PM)
Mccauley

Seems like christians multiply by dividing! No one can agree what the Bible or God really says! You really have to listen carefully with a pure heart to hear God's voice in your head.
Message: Posted by: magicbymccauley (Sep 24, 2012 02:19PM)
Yeah. Usually if you hear voices its schitzophrenia though.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 24, 2012 02:25PM)
What about Oral Roberts when he saw a 900 ft. Jesus? You think that wasn't real!!! You know Jesus can be any size he wants.
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Sep 24, 2012 05:47PM)
Like the 60 foot Jesus at Solid Rock Church? ;)

But seriously...

To my knowledge, Houdini originated the straitjacket escape, but Hardeen was the first to perform it in full view.
In turn, Houdini was the first to do it hanging upside down from a lofty height.

Who was the first to employ the burning rope idea, I don't know.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 24, 2012 06:29PM)
Steve,

I bow to your expertise.

KC
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Sep 24, 2012 07:16PM)
Bow lower--I'm better than that. ;)
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 24, 2012 07:21PM)
Steve,

I'm bowing so low you can see my buttocks being held in by my belt like the bosom of the hooker at my local tavern.


KC
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Sep 24, 2012 07:36PM)
You're a plumber?!?
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 24, 2012 07:45PM)
Steve, No, but I do look like a rather handsome one. My back hurts more than than my dog did when he decided to play with a porcupine - can I get up now?
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Sep 24, 2012 07:49PM)
Arise, Sir Loin of Beef...!
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 24, 2012 08:07PM)
I'm more of a pork chop.
Message: Posted by: magicbymccauley (Sep 24, 2012 10:38PM)
The only 900ft Jesus I like is MC 900 Ft Jesus.

(This also involves a box escape)

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mc+900+ft+jesus&mid=1EE25C25B1689361AA6D1EE25C25B1689361AA6D&view=detail&FORM=VIRE4
Message: Posted by: thegreatnippulini (Sep 25, 2012 07:31AM)
Is anyone here aware of trolls? News to me, but apparently
there are "troll" forums. The only way to be a member of a
troll forum is to prove yourself by going to any other forum
and stirring up trouble. Forum content and thread discussions
don't matter, as long as the user causes major problems with
the forum regulars. I also understand extra points are issued
if threads become locked or members get banned. At my
blacksmithing forum we have a saying... "Don't feed the trolls".
As tempting as it may be to engage, react and respond to these
troublemakers, ignoring them is the only way.

TGN
Message: Posted by: John Cox (Sep 25, 2012 09:34AM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-23 02:52, dave_matkin wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-09-23 00:03, Sam Sandler wrote:

as for the houdini tank what is the problem. it combines two of his greatest creations and truly looks great as a monument to remember the most famous magician in Magic.

[/quote]

And those 2 creations would be what? I can only think of 1 in the picture I saw. But I could be wrong. There are people on here who know a lot more about Houdini than I do.
[/quote]
The Water Torture Cell and his straitjacket escape (could even say his suspended straitjacket escape).
Message: Posted by: Sam Sandler (Sep 26, 2012 12:59PM)
Just read this and being much of the topic is about NPH I thought you woudl like to read it or at least see the info of his up coming book
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/25/neil-patrick-harris-memoir-book-_n_1913895.html
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Sep 26, 2012 02:07PM)
[quote]
On 2012-09-24 20:21, KC Cameron wrote:
Steve,

I'm bowing so low you can see my buttocks being held in by my belt like the bosom of the hooker at my local tavern.


KC
[/quote]

Glad you told me what that was ..... I was about to park my push bike there.....
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 26, 2012 02:32PM)
Dave, I'm not that fat!

Quote from the article Sam spoke about:
[quote]A (presumably cheeky) news release, cited by both the Times and Playbill, describes Harris as "an accomplished amateur magician,"[/quote]

"cheeky" . . . seems like some of the press is a little surprised he is an "an accomplished amateur magician," . . . (quotes are theirs, not mine.) Who knows, maybe they think the whole thing is "cheeky" - I don't pay much attention to actors lives one way or the other.


John, I really don't see combining two feats of Houdini into something he never did as a tribute to him . . . and if you watched the show, you would see that was not the plan. NPH thought he did do the straitjacket underwater and didn't bother to fact check - and the Castle doesn't seem to care that the facts on Houdini are wrong to change it. Who cares about facts anyway? I mean, let's put up a memorial to Lincoln in the Battle of Gettysberg . . . .
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Sep 26, 2012 03:20PM)
Dude it's not a "your fat joke". I wasn't calling you fat - I promise......

There is a joke about a man who bumps off his wife and buries her under his drive. But he leaves her bum sticking up out of the drive. His friend who knows he killed his wife asks if he really liked her bum and wanted to see it everyday still. His reply was ..... It's just so I. Can park my bike.

http://drunkcyclist.com/2007/10/12/german-bicycle-parking/

I didn't say it was a good joke!!
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 26, 2012 04:09PM)
Dave - I am fat, just not that fat! *G* No worries! I am not as sensitive as a NPH fan . . .
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Sep 26, 2012 04:50PM)
Glad you are not offended ...... But let's be honest the woman in the picture was not fat either. As long as you have a good crack you an be used as a bike rack.
Message: Posted by: magicbymccauley (Sep 26, 2012 05:12PM)
YOU INSULTED NPH! I AM OFFENDED!

BWAHAHAHAHAH!

*cries*
*sniffles*

I will forgive you in exchange for a pair of darby cuffs.

And a ham sandwich.

And a bike crack.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Sep 26, 2012 05:50PM)
Mccauley,

I did not insult NPH! I said "I am not as sensitive as a NPH FAN" . . . take some time think before you rush to post. You are racking up posts faster than poor 'Nana when she gets the runs. You have made 178 of your total of 200 posts in the last 24 DAYS. did someone give you a diuretic?
Message: Posted by: magicbymccauley (Sep 26, 2012 08:15PM)
KC I was only joking man. Of course I was not offended at all.

178 Posts is nothing. You should have seen me when I used to post on philosophy boards.
Message: Posted by: John Cox (Dec 8, 2012 01:44PM)
The Houdini mannequin is no longer in the Magic Castle fish tank. Does anyone know why? Is this just temporary, or did Houdini escape for good?
Message: Posted by: Cliffg37 (Dec 8, 2012 02:05PM)
It is in the shop for repair. The bubbles or something in the mechanism failed. It has been promised to be returned better than it was at first. Many are skeptical about it though.
Message: Posted by: John Cox (Dec 8, 2012 03:09PM)
Thanks Cliffg37. I though maybe the straitjacket was decaying. It didn't look all that waterproof to me.