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Topic: Jon Allen's "Double Back" -- Still Just Perfect!
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Dec 1, 2012 11:28AM)
You might remember my post earlier this year on another wonderful packet trick, well there is another one that I've done for years and continue to come back to it over and over again because it's just awesome, and that is Jon Allen's, [b]Double Back[/b].

This is a remarkably smooth effect, not difficult to do and packs a punch so immediately potent that it hit's you up high right between the eyes and down low hard to the gut as you watch two Kings openly switch places with a pair of 5's (my set). :) The effect is you show 4 cards, ask a few relative questions as you show the cards again, you instruct the specs to follow carefully as you put the two 5's on the table and clearly show the pair of kings up in your hands. And then BAM!!!...The kings are instantly shown to be 5s and the two kings are now there on the table. Just beautiful.

I like this effect a lot because it is easy to follow, it brings together some nice moves and produces some great magic. Jon hit it out the park with this one and that it was an instant classic proves how far he hit it, as it's still going with no seeming sense of slowing down.

I still have my old set and it's wearing down a bit but still producing amazement. I had the one that came with the yellow manuscript but nice to see that it comes with a DVD now. Nice and I'd like to see the update of it someday. :)

As has been said around here, I'm mostly a coin guy but like to play with the cards a bit too at times. I've gotten better with them and can do a few neat things now to help break up all the coin work, but I still like the really good packet effects. Double Back is still certainly one of the very best IMHO, and anytime you do it, you've done a card trick that absolutely can't be beat. You don't have to be any such great card man to look like one if you do this effect. It absolutely blows the shoes off spectators, and is really cool to pull out and do anytime, anywhere. It's some of the most magic you will ever see with just 4 cards anywhere.

I still like other great packet effects like NFW, B'Wave, Capitulating Queens and even Lubor Fidlier's Royal Fantasy now and again, all fine packet tricks to be sure but [b]Double Back[/b] can roll with the very best of them and if it's not in the conversation, well, then you're not quite talking about the best. ;)

Finally, most folks go through a lifetime without producing any particular piece of perfection of their own or for others. Well, [b]Double Back[/b] is perfection, and I thank the fine closeup magician, Jon Allen again and again for sharing it with us yesterday, today and always. :)

Take a look for yourself and see why it continues year after year to be so highly recommended. It don't get too much better than this. :)

Then...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzwxcfQ4pUc

And Now... Still Just Perfect! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-rf_I1AQBtM#!
Message: Posted by: joseph (Dec 1, 2012 04:59PM)
Agreed sir.. just a great effect .. every magician should have this...
Message: Posted by: motown (Dec 1, 2012 06:59PM)
I never get tired of that one.
Message: Posted by: greenc77 (Dec 1, 2012 07:11PM)
Never seen this before but looks very powerfull, might have to put this on the Christmas list.
Message: Posted by: bobthemagicdoerguy (Dec 1, 2012 08:52PM)
I've never seen this before - I have to ask - can this be done with borrowed cards? For only $15 bucks on Vanishing Magic, it has me wondering...
Message: Posted by: Card Detective (Dec 2, 2012 04:20AM)
Double Back is supplied with the necessary cards.
Message: Posted by: CardMaker (Dec 2, 2012 04:20AM)
You might want to see my lousy performance too :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XKNnuU-xME
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Dec 13, 2012 07:06PM)
Just checking back here. Not bad CardMaker, looks pretty good to me. Good job!

Hey, I have the old one with the yellow manuscript. I guess it comes with a disk now, how is it as to the explanation. And does it give any other pointers, etc. ? Just askin'. :)
Message: Posted by: Axman (Dec 24, 2012 02:28PM)
Double back is one of the best card tricks ever invented.
Absolute genius.
Message: Posted by: Corbett (Jan 2, 2013 08:00AM)
MB, I too am a fan of this fine routine. Wanted to ask you, if you go into this routine wtih a standard deck, as I plan to, how do you ditch the gaff so you can continue with your set?
Message: Posted by: murrari (Jan 10, 2013 07:39AM)
One of the best packet tricks available!
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 13, 2013 04:36PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-02 09:00, Corbett wrote:
MB, I too am a fan of this fine routine. Wanted to ask you, if you go into this routine wtih a standard deck, as I plan to, how do you ditch the gaff so you can continue with your set?
[/quote]

Hiya Corbett, :)

I typically don't do this from a deck, though I suppose you could well enough and go into the routine. Afterwards, I usually just gather the cards and put them away but I will think about how this could be done in relationship to using a deck. Perhaps others here might offer some ideas on it as well. :)
Message: Posted by: PapaG (Jan 13, 2013 05:22PM)
Is the outward reality for the spectator that much different to Doc Daley's Last Trick?
Message: Posted by: Paul Rathbun (Jan 13, 2013 07:11PM)
PapaG,

This is better/stronger than Daley's Last Trick because you actually show the cards in your hands that you are supposed to have. With DLT there is a lot of implying going on. With DB you place the cards in their hands like DLT but then reinforce everything is as you claim by showing the two cards in your hands. Then they visibly change to the cards they believe are in their hands and the cards you just showed them are now in their hands. Much stronger in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: PapaG (Jan 14, 2013 09:29AM)
Still not sure that the display is necessary. The addition is nice but is it worth carrying gaffs just for this added convincer. Obviously it's a real magician fooler but I just wonder whether laymen need that additional convincer.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 14, 2013 03:41PM)
I think Paul gave it to you straight PapaG, as to why this effect is so powerful in comparison to the Daley Trick. I do that effect too and both tricks are nice but DB goes a bit further with the concept of the cards switching places. DB would be categorized as an absolutely "impossible" transposition beyond that of the Daley trick, which would come off in the "slickly done" category, IMHO.

Think if you did both, DB would get a stronger reaction everytime out, like the difference between a Mustang and Maserati. :D And again, I still love the Daley trick as well. :)
Message: Posted by: Demitri (Jan 16, 2013 12:21AM)
Always been a fan of double back. I also believe its stronger than Daley's Last Trick (which was a staple of my walkaround card magic for a long time). You just can't beat that instant change right before their eyes.
Message: Posted by: Paul Rathbun (Jan 17, 2013 06:28AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-13 18:22, PapaG wrote:
Is the outward reality for the spectator that much different to Doc Daley's Last Trick?
[/quote]

I think the bottom line is that the conviction is stronger, so therefore so it the effect. With DB, they know you have the cards in your hands that you are supposed to, so therefore the cards in their hands must be the others. Bam! The cards in your hands instantly change. That is their reality with DB.

The only thing that is going to convince you is to buy it and try. You will then be able to see the difference in the reactions.
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (Jan 18, 2013 01:13AM)
For me 'stronger reaction' is not always my goal of perfoming magic. Someitmes I seek strong reaction, sometimes I seek laugh, sometimes I seek deep reaction.

'Double Back' is a kind of pure transpositions and 'Daley's Last Trick' is a kind of sucker tricks. They are two different tricks. So I would use them at different occasions.

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: Proximo (Jan 22, 2013 03:54PM)
I also have the yellow manuscript. Picked it up ages ago and still loving it!
Message: Posted by: Zuke (Jan 22, 2013 06:50PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-14 10:29, PapaG wrote:
Still not sure that the display is necessary. The addition is nice but is it worth carrying gaffs just for this added convincer. Obviously it's a real magician fooler but I just wonder whether laymen need that additional convincer.
[/quote]

I'm with you PapaG. It's magician thinking, as a magician you know you've done sw*tch*s but the spec doesn't. I've done this routine in the trenches for way too many years to mention and the specs go wild about it. Personally, it's not a favourite of mine and I started doing it only as an add on, but spec reaction is so strong that I never leave it out. For a routine that gets such a strong reaction, that uses cards from the deck I'm using and has no clean up necessary, I really don't see the benefit of adding gaffs for an additional display.
Message: Posted by: M Sini (Jan 23, 2013 06:46AM)
I've performed both tricks and for the most part I agree that the reactions are (almost) equally as strong. However, I've performed Double Back at every single walk around gig I've worked for almost 3 years now. I use it as my opener most of the time because of the presentation I use, it's the ultimate ice-breaker.
Message: Posted by: nicolasmtg (Jan 23, 2013 08:16AM)
Hello I have a question mb :)

just to know... its posible to do DLT with this set so the DB be an encore?
please answer me on pm :)
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 26, 2013 07:17AM)
Welcome to the Café nico, :)

PMd you. ;)
Message: Posted by: TheMag1cian (Feb 4, 2013 08:50AM)
Hows the "tactile experience" of the cards when they're in the spec's hands? My copy's on the way. Can't wait!
Message: Posted by: M Sini (Feb 7, 2013 11:35AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-04 09:50, TheMag1cian wrote:
Hows the "tactile experience" of the cards when they're in the spec's hands? My copy's on the way. Can't wait!
[/quote]

They only handle the 2 cards you want them to handle so you'll have no issues.
Message: Posted by: sohaib (Feb 10, 2013 02:36PM)
Yep, Double Back is a keeper :)

One of the best packet effects of all time - top 10 for sure, maybe even top 5
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Feb 13, 2013 07:02AM)
I will never forget the first time I opened the package when I bought DB. (I think I got it from Hank Lee) Anyway, when I realized that I could actually SHOW the cards in my hand that were supposed to be there, I about flipped! It was a moment of pure magical magic for me. (lol! Had to say that!)

Anyway, I was off and running! What an effect! This was just screaming for someone to bring it into reality in the world, and Jon heard the cry and did it for us. And we will ever be grateful for his creation.

Well, over the years I have LOST my original purchase, and now it is re-released? Please tell me who sells it!
Message: Posted by: Doug Arden (Feb 13, 2013 07:27AM)
Doug:

Most dealers have it but here's a link to one:


http://www.mjmmagic.com/store/double-back-dvd-and-cards-by-jon-allen-dvd-p-12315.html

Doug
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Feb 13, 2013 10:00AM)
Thank-you!
Message: Posted by: Martino (Feb 13, 2013 01:24PM)
Why not buy it direct from the creator.

http://www.close-upmagician.com/magiciansonly.htm
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Feb 13, 2013 11:28PM)
I dug through my files and found the orange instructions that were long lost. I assembled the neccessary cards, practiced the moves, and I'm back in business!

Once again I was astounded and pleased at the simple beauty of the effect as Jon constructed it. Can't wait to hit the streets! God how I've missed this trick!
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Feb 14, 2013 06:54AM)
I've got a solution for the problem of the cards making a noise when you separate them. I use Scotch brand Restickable Glue Stick. Absolutely silent and works like a charm on this effect.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Mar 9, 2013 09:47AM)
Speaking of restickable glue stick, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it because I'm not sure if it's on the market any more. A few years back I bought several sticks at Staples, just to stock up, because I use it on many effects, but you know how companies are these days. One day it's available for purchase, and the next day they pull the plug on it, and you can't find it anywhere. I haven't been to Staple's in a while, and I'm not sure if the sticks are even available any more. But they sure work great on effects where you need to stick and unstick two cards.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Mar 14, 2013 08:55AM)
Sounds like a pretty good idea but I have found that my cards still work pretty well, just a bit worn over the years as I love to do the effect for people. It really blows them away every time. :)

If you like to do a few high-impact card tricks, Double Back should definitely be one of them. It truly is amazing and pretty easy to do. :)

Are you guys still doing this one? :)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Mar 17, 2013 10:39AM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-14 09:55, Mb217 wrote:

Are you guys still doing this one? :)
[/quote]

Now and forever!
Message: Posted by: trueinventor (Apr 10, 2013 01:03PM)
Hi guys,

I am so embarrasingly slow to learn new magic concepts. I've just spent about an hour watching Jon Allen's "Double Back".

Final Verdict: Awesome! and almost Perfect!

However I should note that when Jon is teaching the Elmsley count, (YAY JON! although I've heard of it I didn't know what it was, but now I do thanks to you!)
...as I was saying before I interrupted myself: when Jon is teaching the Elmsley count, as well as a substitute technique for those who can't do Elmsley very well: a substitution which Jon credits to Nicholas Einhorn, He flashes cards toward the camera stating: "And you will then end up with the cards in THIS order"

Mr Allen, it's just a small thing present in an otherwise very good presentation of your method but...the order of cards you show the camera after doing the SUBSTITUTION move is not the same order as you show after doing the Elmsley count !! After progressing past the Nicholas Einhorn variation (which I am grateful you taught) you then pick up the presentation from there saying: "And after the Elmsley Count your cards should be in THIS order". Well, the "THIS order" you then show after doing the Elmsley Count is not the same "THIS order" you show after the Substitutionary move.

If the order has to be EXACTLY correct it's important to be aware that there are 2 different "This Orders" being shown to the Camera. Maybe a note could be slipped in with future DVD shipments that notes the tiny discrepency and which correctly identifies the CORRECT order of cards.

On the other hand: If either "This order" works...then the rest of my post will expose me as the whiney complainer, who rants about nothing, that my boss often reminds me I can be at times (although I STILL maintain that anything over 40 hours SHOULD be treated as time and 1/2 overtime pay...he thinks that is just plain silly and often closes the door in my face while I stand there with my time card in hand...he doesn't slam it rudely, just closes it...but STILL...)

I'm sorry, back on subject:

Real Magicians would most likely instantaneously mentally correct and adjust the tiny discrepency of two different card orders being shown, but for the "I am like Patrick-the-Starfish off of Sponge Bob audience" (and I AM: ya gots ta go reaaaal slow with me) even the tiniest curve ball that arises when we are trying to learn a new magic method can derail us terribly for awhile.

If someone chooses to use the Mr. Einhorn Substituion for proper card postioning Mr. Allen teaches then:

To arrive in the correct card order that the Double Back needs you to be in, you have to slide the bottom and top card, not the bottom and third card as is shown on the video. This absolutely drove me nuts for 20 minutes because mistakes are almost always on MY PART and not another party's part. (TD Bank will confirm this :) )

I kept repeating the instructions and didn't obtain the same card order Mr. Allen was flashing to the camera and with each repetition of the Substitution variation I would look at my result and go: "Wha...I uh...say what now?...Do I need coffee or B-vitamins to wake up and understand this?...what am I messing up THIS time?..."

But this time...(and I am almost happy about it)...IT WASN'T ME!! :) This time the INSTRUCTION was off a bit and not Patrick the Starfish! YAY!!

After a lot of rewinding and experimenting, I finally pieced together proper placement of things with the Nicholas Einhorn Subtitution. I'm almost glad the mistake was there because, now that I've able to identify and correct it, I feel as though I've conquered something!: I feel like a giant wall in my mind that has graffiti written on it stating: ALEX YOU ARE DUMB" crumbled and I now stand amidst the rubble of the crumbled wall seeing that a magnificent valley was just on the other side of that now-crumbled wall while a villager rides by on horseback saying: "maybe you aren't as dumb as we thought".

When Mr Allen teaches the Elmsley though, everything goes according to plan if you do it just as he shows it.

It really may be that either card order works but it is Jon's statement on the video: "After doing the Elmsly count and before the D>>>L>>> your cards will be in THIS order" that would make a beginner do a double take when viewing "Double Back" and maybe cause confusion as it did for me.

When you have little experience your thinking is, when learning a new concept: "If there are 7 steps, I HAVE to thoroughly understand them and do them PERFECTLY in order or this is a bust".

In contrast, I'm guessin experienced magicians often think: "Hey, great presentation and idea but I can do that in just 5 steps or I can do "A" instead of "B" and get there all the same."

Us beginners though, We are afraid that if we step away from "A" or "B" a land-mine awaits!

That is my only observation as to why Mr. Allen' Video presentation of Double Back scores 90% on the "AWESOMENESS" Scale and not 100%.

The effect itself, the magician teaching the concept, the teacher's assistent, audience reaction, all DO deserve 100% on the "AWESOMENESS" scale. :)
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 27, 2013 03:28PM)
Trueinventor, you said a mouthful here. :D In a nutshell, it is indeed a wonderful effect, one of the very best. :)

I get PMs all the time as to this string, and it would be nice if folks just stopped back here to post their thoughts, but a recent one I got said...

[b]Mb,

You might not remember me, but you urged me to buy double back and you made me a private YouTube video onthe Elmsley count and DL.

Well I brought it, it sat and stared at me for a few months, and I just broke it out.

[i]FANTASTIC[/i],

THANK YOU!

I really appreciate your support, thanks.

-T. [/b]


That's what I'm talking about. :D
Message: Posted by: TheMag1cian (May 27, 2013 06:45PM)
I literally use this every day. Its a great opener to any card routine. Or anywhere in the routine actually. I shan't forget the sweet sweet "reset" built in to this. Your final move resets instantly. It's such a huge worker that your cards will wear fast. I didn't have the sound issue until I used my restickable glue stick so I basically just loosen them up just before I perform. If you don't have this do yourself a huge favor and pick it up. Thank us later.
Message: Posted by: Ian K (Jun 17, 2013 10:44AM)
On occasion, I have performed Double Back with four regular cards. Means you can not show the faces of the kings prior to the transformation, which is so strong, but does enable you to do what is still a pretty good trick off the cuff as it were.
Message: Posted by: Rocky (Jul 13, 2013 07:20PM)
I am a gaffed packet trick lover...with my sincere respect to purists and everything that they do to promote the art of magic, I will not hesitate to use a gaff in any card effect...as long as the audience reaction reflects that the effect elicits an eyepopping, jawdropping expression we all get such satisfaction from. An effect like that will always have a place in my act.
Today I obtained Double Back from my local magic dealer. Thanks to the original post by Mb217 I have been curious to try this effect on real world spectators and not the feller's who hang out at the shop finding every conceivable reason as to why a trick WONT work in the real world ( for Double Back, the magic masturbators claimed that the spectators will be suspicious of the cards,thus demanding to see the ones in the performers hands).After a few hours of practice,I was able to share this trick with a few friends. IT KILLED!!!!
Thanks to Mb217 for bringing up this effect in his original post and to Jon Allen for his brilliant contribution to the mainstream.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jul 29, 2013 12:56PM)
Glad you gave it a try for yourself, Rocky...That's the way! :) Never let friends tell you a real pretty girl can't kiss well, try for yourself. ;)
Message: Posted by: Theodore Lawton (Jul 29, 2013 03:59PM)
Thanks for the suggestion Mb, that looks excellent.
Message: Posted by: JustCraig (Aug 19, 2013 08:04PM)
Double Back really is an amazing effect – Without a doubt my favourite packet trick.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Nov 24, 2013 10:43PM)
It is a staple with me. So simple, so CLEAR, so elegant...
Message: Posted by: videoman (Nov 25, 2013 02:06AM)
FYI, repositionable glue sticks are still available, although not my favorite thing to use with Double Backs.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Nov 25, 2013 05:49AM)
Yes. In fact I found some. A few dabs has done the trick for me. (Pardon the pun.)

Since the cards are pulled apart and immediately restuck, I have not even had to re-apply the stick through hundreds of uses. Amazing stuff!
Message: Posted by: TheMag1cian (Nov 27, 2013 12:57PM)
I put this on top of any deck containing other effects. While they're holding the 2 fives (they think) and I show I have the 2 kings, I wave my cards facedown over theirs asking if they felt it. Sometimes they say yes, which is great. Such a strong moment. Dr. Daley's on steroids (as I believe Daffy once described it). I love packet effects. Sometimes I'll have this on top of a deck, ditch them after, have the 2 cards necessary for Twlight Angels (ditch them after), have 8 card brainwave next on top (after double back has been ditched), then ditch those as well. I will end up with another gimmick on top DF R &B) for Dan Harlan's Turning Blue effect. Sometimes if I have Richard Sanders "Tagged" gimmick card in middle of seck (and chain on) I go into that right after Twlight Angels. At the end I usually put all cards back into the case and say "actually, let me show you one more" at which point I take out the ENVY-LOPE gimmick and perform it. Then of course I can go in to a bunch of impromptu effects, everything examinable at the end.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Nov 27, 2013 08:36PM)
Wow!! Killer routiine!
Message: Posted by: TheMag1cian (Nov 28, 2013 06:38AM)
Thanks daff. that's my power deck, containing enough effects to entertain fir a while. Even if I show 1 to 3 then put them away, I have the others already set and ready to rock. I'm all about the crazy visual stuff usually.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Nov 28, 2013 08:36PM)
You're just like me!
Message: Posted by: orchid666 (Nov 30, 2013 09:16PM)
I worked out a handling years ago that didn't use the gaff card included in double back. But,it did use a dupe card. It was just as clean, but after doing it a lot, started considering that,
If I had an extra card anyway, why was the dupe better than the gaff card? Only the fact that it may be less noticeable if left in the deck while another card effect followed d/b.
And was the trade off of holding/concealing a double card thru the whole routine worth swapping the very clean single gaff card?
Like I said it was a long time ago, and I think I was going thru a kind of 'purist' phase in card magic for some reason.
Couldn't care less now! If a performance is strengthened because a gaff or two are in play, so be it!
And thanks for reminding me how great this effect is. I saw it first at the first convention I ever went to and it totally blew my mind.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Dec 1, 2013 07:05AM)
Yup. Simple is always better!
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Dec 5, 2013 02:37PM)
Glad to see this thread still going since I started it about a year ago this time. :) Tremendous amount of posts and views here says a lot about Jon Alllen's, Double Back, basically that it is indeed a classic.

I read some posts where people were asking how easy is this effect to do, well, it's not hard stuff at all and "practice" makes it hum like a fine motor as to its overall presentation.

I just began carrying it around with me again after a little hiatus, and I actually did the trick about 10 times today for various people and groups and it still kills! :D Such a nice little plot to it that plays out so amazingly, and guaranteed to drive people mad. ;) I'll probably do it another 10 times or so over the weekend as I just love the overall setup, finish and instant-enough reset to it…And not to mention the always great applause.

Packs small, Plays BIG every time out. I truly think that if Dr. Daley could see this little take on his seminal "Last Trick" effect, he would be very impressed without a doubt. :)
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Dec 6, 2013 11:03PM)
He would probably slap himself for not thinking of it!
Message: Posted by: TheMag1cian (Dec 7, 2013 07:08AM)
I still like the "blackjack" presentation with double back, leading in to a nice gambling routine.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Dec 9, 2013 03:14PM)
The "Blackjack" presentation?
Message: Posted by: TheMag1cian (Dec 17, 2013 04:32PM)
Yep. Patter goes something like " A long time ago my grandpa taught me how to win at blackjack. Its all about knowing when to hit and when to stay. Want to try a hand?". Deal them 2 5's and show your 2 kings and ask what they want to do. Obviously they say hit. Say "see I would've stayed". I think I'll hit,". They look at you like your crazy. Reveal your 2 5's, deal another card to them (making sure its not an ace) and say "sorry looks like you went over. And that's why I'm not allowed in vegas" Its always a hit.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Dec 23, 2013 04:00PM)
Very nice!
Message: Posted by: videoman (Dec 24, 2013 03:29AM)
Over the years I've accumulated several different versions of the card you need, so consequently I will switch around occasionally and try out different presentations using different pairs of cards. A couple of the routines I've done don't even use pairs, but use contrasting cards relevant to whatever my storyline is at the time.

The routine I've been doing most recently uses 2 jokers (a regular one and the guarantee one) along with the 2 red queens. I just keep them in a regular deck and have the necessary cards interspersed throughout the deck. The nice thing I like about this version is after the trick is finished I just put the jokers away in my shirt pocket and then I can continue using the deck for other tricks. It makes complete sense to remove the jokers from the deck as this is a very common thing that most people have done.
Usually at the start as I spread thru the deck face up while chatting for a moment, I make a comment that I must have "forgotten" to remove the jokers from this deck so I may as well show them a quick trick with the jokers, afterwards I put the jokers away in my pocket and continue along so it all makes perfect sense to the specs.

It's logical, makes for a clean ending, and with a smooth and easy flow. I've been having a lot of fun with it.
Message: Posted by: TheMag1cian (Jan 21, 2014 07:29PM)
Performing a quickie double back for the students for fun on my break.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152165978221416&l=4021941674384972567
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Jan 23, 2014 05:41AM)
12 years in magic and I still have not tried this effect. Just lazy on my part.
Message: Posted by: TheMag1cian (Jan 23, 2014 06:06AM)
Kids and adults both go nuts. that's not at all how I perform it at gigs though. Kids caught me off guard on m yway to the staff room n a rush. lol It's Dr. Daley's Last trick on heavy steroids!
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 15, 2014 11:20AM)
This is a great effect and I remember when Barry Taylor showed this to me years ago in front of my neighborhood Starbucks. It's a killer but not gaffless. Dr. Daley admonished that improvements in magic usually come with a price.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Feb 15, 2014 03:44PM)
Truly think Doc Daley (and Dr. Kildare and Ben Casey, for that matter):D would absolutely love this one, despite the little extra. ;) And to be able to move the needle from "nice trick" to absolute impossibilia so easily, well, is quite worth it, IMHO. :)

It's sorta like being able to also grow seedless grapes and already ripe bananas on an apple tree, or something like that. :)
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Feb 24, 2014 03:43AM)
Back to card magic after thirty years. This is an awesome effect, and certainly accessible to this born-again beginner. And I actually have what I need for it in my card collection already. Thanks for posting this!

Les
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Feb 24, 2014 03:47AM)
[quote]
On , daffydoug wrote:
Speaking of restickable glue stick, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it because I'm not sure if it's on the market any more. A few years back I bought several sticks at Staples, just to stock up, because I use it on many effects, but you know how companies are these days. One day it's available for purchase, and the next day they pull the plug on it, and you can't find it anywhere. I haven't been to Staple's in a while, and I'm not sure if the sticks are even available any more. But they sure work great on effects where you need to stick and unstick two cards.
[/quote]

I haven't been able to find repositionable glue sticks at Staples in Toronto. But Elmer's makes something similar, and it seems easy enough to find:

http://www.michaels.com/Elmer’s-Repositionable-Glue-Stick/gc1653,default,pd.html

This seems to be more of a scrap-booking thing than an office supply thing, so I think craft shops like Michaels are a good bet.

Les
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Feb 24, 2014 06:33AM)
Just dug out a suitable gimmick and an old Pinochle deck (hence the needed duplicate). Lip balm (Chapstick in my case) is a little slicker, but the cards hold position and the cards don't talk on separating. Drawback is that this should be wiped off and reapplied (I worry about the petrolatum staining the cards or attracting dirt), and I don't know how many times you can repeat with a single application. Still it was adequate for me to get into the trick tonight just with what I had lying around.
Message: Posted by: videoman (Feb 24, 2014 01:29PM)
If you twist them slightly to separate rather than pulling straight apart, it greatly reduces the noise.
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Feb 24, 2014 03:05PM)
I also got a small chunk of beeswax with a (not terribly good) Magic Makers IT trick. (I should have saved my fourteen bucks and put it toward a supply of higher quality IT and IET, but that's another topic…) A tiny pellet schmeered over the centre of the cards in question then spread by rubbing the surfaces together. It is sticky enough, isn't greasy or fragrant like the lip balm, and, surprisingly, doesn't talk much when I simply pry the cards apart. There is the tiniest click, but no horrifying scratch. Still, I am off to a craft store tonight to get the Elmer's repositionable glue stick.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Feb 24, 2014 07:28PM)
[quote]
On , lcwright1964 wrote:
Back to card magic after thirty years. This is an awesome effect, and certainly accessible to this born-again beginner. And I actually have what I need for it in my card collection already. Thanks for posting this!

Les
[/quote]

You also have what you need in the package when you purchase the effect. Buying the effect that you really like is called 'doing the right thing'. Instead, you're trying to make up your own and are having trouble finding the right stuff to make it work. You'll also be missing out on all the subtleties and presentational tips that make it really powerful. I guess that doesn't concern you if you can save about $20?

The strap line for here is 'Magicians helping magicians'. Why are you coming on here telling everyone you are essentially ripping me off?

Regards.
Jon Allen
Creator of Double Back
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Feb 24, 2014 09:44PM)
This is what I picked up tonight:

http://www.elmers.com/product/detail/E627

So far so good in my homemade mock-up of the trick. Goes on like the lip balm, sticks and unsticks like the beeswax. I don't know how well it approximates the original. I will find that out when mine finally arrives in the mail.

I wanted to avoid this, given the positive tenor of this thread, but given the excoriation I just received I should bring up the one down side of the trick: it is darn difficult to find. The usual suspects (Penguin, etc.) are either out of stock or plain just not stocking it. The creator of the effect sells his professional services on his webpage but not, from what I could see, his products. I did end up finding it through an Amazon reseller, albeit at a higher price.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Feb 25, 2014 06:52AM)
As excuses go, that's as lame as they come. Several usual suspects stock it as found when I typed in 'double back Jon Allen' into Google.

If you go to the link in my signature at the end of my posts on here, you'll see www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk which takes you directly to the product area that is plainly listed as 'Magicians Only' on my website.

Excuse me while I lay down from all that exertion...
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Feb 25, 2014 08:52AM)
[quote]
On , Jon Allen wrote:
If you go to the link in my signature at the end of my posts on here, you'll see www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk which takes you directly to the product area
[/quote]

Thanks! That's you beat me to this. It was your sig, and not Google, that led me to that very URL, which oddly does not rank very high in a search with the very specifiers you used. Maybe Google.ca differs from Google.co.uk, but I get a whole bunch of Youtube links on the effect, THEN links to places that list the trick as out of stock (Vanishing Inc) or not being stocked anymore at all (Penguin). But this is how I found the Amazon sale, and why I went there even though a bookseller is hardly my first choice for purchasing stuff like this. And I was wrong about the Amazon pricing--it is higher than the online magic store pricing (USD15, less when discounted), but still a little less than your own. I hope this is okay.

Your concerns raise an interesting question that really needs to be clarified for a magic neophyte like me: is it unacceptable for the owner of the effect to make duplicates for personal use, to modify it suit his own preferences (e.g., my homemade version uses JC, JH, 10D, 10S on Tally fan-backs vs. the King/5-on-Bikes in the original), to refurbish it when necessary (viz. the foregoing discussion about modifying the adhesion issue), or to incorporate it into yet another effect of one's own devising? I have written Bob Kohler directly about replacement gaff cards for his Aces In Their Faces and have mentioned the various options, and I never got the sense from him that it was some moral or legal transgression for me to get custom cards done up from any of the usual providers. I kind of thought that when purchasing a trick we are purchasing the secret. In the case of Double Back, you didn't invent DF cards, and using temporary adhesion goes back to the days of diachylon. What you are compensated for when we purchase a Jon Allen effect is your unique application of old ideas, not the few cents worth of gaff cards and sticky stuff that a lot of us have already.

Though admittedly green about magic, I am seasoned both as a consumer and provider of products and services. From that perspective, I think it is fair to advise you that ungrounded assumptions regarding and ad hominem attacks on actual or potential customers is scarcely the most prudent thing to do in securing a livelihood or reputation, especially in a field where demand is far exceeded by supply. It is a little too much like biting the hand. You took to insulting me personally without knowing enough about the context of my comments. I am thrilled with your trick and am honoured to use it, but after this I can't speak so glowingly of you personally. But such is nature of art and artists, I guess--I still love Manhattan and Annie Hall, though I don't think much of their perverse creator.

Having clarified all this, I hope we can call this matter settled and go back to our regularly scheduled programme of honouring your excellent work.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 25, 2014 09:05AM)
I can't imagine why Jon would have an issue with anyone making up spare or replacement sets [i]provided they had purchased it in the first place[/i]. I'm not sure why you bring that up at all, frankly.

I frequently see tricks advertised which it would be possible for me to reverse engineer. If I really like it, then I buy it, because the creator introduced me to the idea.

People pop up on here from time to time, bragging about how they have made their own version of a marketed trick, thus dodging the cost of purchasing it. It never played well in the past and it doesn't play well today. Not just with me, but with 99% of the people who use these boards.

In your position I would have ordered it already, and taken the discussion from there. You still seem to be at the stage of staring at it on the internet.
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Feb 25, 2014 09:23AM)
[quote]
On , tomsk192 wrote:

In your position I would have ordered it already, and taken the discussion from there. You still seem to be at the stage of staring at it on the internet.
[/quote]

I had. Sorry I wasn't clear on that. But I did think I mention that I was excited to figure out that I could begin to work with the (purchased) idea pending the original's delivery. Which, since such such things are invariably prepaid, I do technically already own, even if I am awaiting possession of the actual thing. It was more the giddy enthusiasm of discovery, not bragging. I have nothing to brag about, since I didn't cleverly reverse engineer anything. Indeed, thanks to the wonders of the very Google search terms Mr. Allen himself used, no one has to--it's been done.

You are partly right. I am staring at the trick on the internet. But I do so as one who has already supported the product. It is an unfortunate reality of internet commerce that speed of processing payment greatly exceeds that of dispatching the item. I thought I was on the side of the angels here and that it was legitimate for me to leap into the dialogue though I didn't yet have the goodies in my eager hands and might not for another week or so. I am disinclined to advertise the illegitimate use of someone else's intellectual property. I may be green, but that doesn't make me stupid.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Feb 25, 2014 03:05PM)
[quote]
On , lcwright1964 wrote:
Back to card magic after thirty years. This is an awesome effect, and certainly accessible to this born-again beginner. And I actually have what I need for it in my card collection already. Thanks for posting this!

Les
[/quote]

Which bit of this lends itself to anyone thinking you had bought it? Certainly not:

" And I actually have what I need for it in my card collection already."

If you did buy it then firstly, thanks and secondly, make it clear! If you have bought the original then I have no qualms about you making up further ones for your own use. I have had people who have bought my Silent Treatment email me asking if they can modify it I for their own use. Of course they can, having purchased the original.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 25, 2014 03:25PM)
Pleased to hear you bought it. That wasn't clear to me from your post. Thanks for clarifying matters.
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Feb 27, 2014 11:42AM)
Yikes! For someone who makes a living at communicating I have done a lousy job of being clear here. Really embarrassing. I took too much context for granted and set myself up to be misconstrued. To be safe I ordered another copy directly through the Jon Allen page (how I missed that URL in my searching is puzzling and embarrassing), and in passing splurged on the eye-popping Rule of Three. The latter is a wee bit pricier than most marketed effects, and I am in this for sheer duffer enjoyment and nothing more, but I anticipate years of pleasure in return. Moreover, I am completely nuts about the Phoenix Deck project, and I just have to support a product that capitalizes on that work. I am watching the mail eagerly, and I want to reassure Mr. Allen that I have gotten lots of stuff from the UK over the years and am sure that the Royal Mail-Canada Post standard combo will get it all here just fine, though he warns that sometimes things go missing.

Anyway, I have been duly schooled, and certainly will work on my clarity and diplomacy when commenting here on marketed tricks in the future.

Thanks, gents,

Les
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Mar 1, 2014 09:03AM)
Hi Les,

I received your order and sent both items out yesterday.

So often people on here, many anonymous, get into arguments over puerile stuff. It can get really serious in some cases. When I felt that you had made your own without purchasing the original, I was duly annoyed. However, it is nice to know that all was not as it seemed and it was just miscommunication. Thank you for your purchase and I'm happy that it's all resolved. All is good in the world :-)

I know you will get a lot of use from Rule of Three and I hope you enjoy performing it.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on RO3 once you have had a chance to work on it.

Cheers,
Jon
Message: Posted by: Steven Webb (Mar 15, 2014 09:33AM)
I was shown this effect at my magic club last month and it floored me. I'm new at magic (I wonder how long I can fet away with that line?) and love practicing this effect. It is because of this trick that I learned an EC and DL, though my DL is atrocious.

So far I've performed it for my grandma obly, as I want to smooth out everything first, but I know it will play huge.

This combined with my other recently purchased packet trick(Twisted Sisters) will deliver a good kick to my limited experience without gaffs.
Message: Posted by: Dollarbill (May 18, 2014 03:14PM)
I've still got to get this. $$$ is tight right now. :(
Message: Posted by: MikeMgc (Mar 5, 2015 04:35AM)
I agree still just perfect and is the perfect opener, I perform this all the time as part of my regular set.

For me the best and most direct card transposition out there, always has a strong effect on laypeople who are floored.
Message: Posted by: MichaelJae (Mar 5, 2015 07:43PM)
Very powerfull card trick. I never leave home without it.
Message: Posted by: Wardy (May 18, 2015 01:21AM)
One of my top ten, always in my wallet effects. Such a quick visual stunner, a great way to grab peoples attention before leading them into the netherworld....
Message: Posted by: Proximo (May 18, 2015 08:19AM)
The DVD has been on my wishlist for a long time.
I still have the effect with the yellow instructions, but my cards have worn out completely!
Actually, I haven't got any other effect that looks as worn-out as my copy of Double Back, I literally must have used that effect thousands of times.
Message: Posted by: Wardy (Jun 13, 2015 07:35PM)
I've got 4 sets made up. I'm always ready for this cool effect. Just did it yesterday and the stunned silence is still deafening.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 20, 2016 06:24PM)
Happy New Years guys…:)

Still remarkable as well to see this string on [b]Double Back[/b] still in the mix as well. I'm not surprised though, as it's really just that good. Gotta ring in a new set for the continuing journey. :)

Oh, and if you see Jon Allen out there, be sure to thank him for this classic. :)
Message: Posted by: RJLockwood (Feb 8, 2016 09:13PM)
When I see @MB217 talk so highly of this... you know its gonna be good :) I checked out the video and it looks GREAT :D
Seems like the more of Jons stuff that I see the more impressed I am (For whatever its worth ;) )

Looks like I found my next purchase!
Message: Posted by: blurrylines (Feb 28, 2016 11:32PM)
I bought this two weeks ago and have been practicing it daily. I can't seem to get them to separate smoothly, they will only separate if I pull them directly apart (which makes the horrible sound Jon mentions in the video). I practice this multiple times daily and thought it would have broken in by now. I of course have watched the portion of the DVD that specifically addresses this, but once they touch, they hold fast. Any suggestions on how to more effectively break them in? I am very eager to start performing this. Thanks in advance, and thanks to Jon Allen for this amazing effect.
Message: Posted by: Dollarbill (Feb 29, 2016 12:01PM)
[quote]On Feb 29, 2016, blurrylines wrote:
I bought this two weeks ago and have been practicing it daily. I can't seem to get them to separate smoothly, they will only separate if I pull them directly apart (which makes the horrible sound Jon mentions in the video). I practice this multiple times daily and thought it would have broken in by now. I of course have watched the portion of the DVD that specifically addresses this, but once they touch, they hold fast. Any suggestions on how to more effectively break them in? I am very eager to start performing this. Thanks in advance, and thanks to Jon Allen for this amazing effect. [/quote]


You could try to contact Jon thru a pm and ask him if there might be another "trick" to make them separate easier. :) If you scroll up you will see he posted awhile back and you can pm from there. ;). Good luck.
Message: Posted by: On The Offbeat (Feb 29, 2016 01:39PM)
Sounds like they should have broken in by now. Perhaps yours was of a different or new material that makes it last longer.
Try rubbing your thumb over it as many times as necessary to get it where you like it.
I can separate mine by simply sliding them apart. Try giving that a good go. It may be that once you have separated them that way a couple of times it will become easier.
Yet still another option is to make a new set yourself. This is quite easy assuming you have the what's necessary. If not, it is cheap and easy to get a hold of.
Message: Posted by: bobgill (Mar 3, 2016 11:41AM)
Let's face it: there are a lot of similar packet effects out there relying on this type of methodology, several of which have been mentioned in these posts.
I have most of them and take pleasure from the differences between them. A shout-out to Richard Sanders for ACE in particular.

BUT - I still hold Jon's effect in the highest esteem. Who'd have thought you could be creative within the confines of a four-card packet trick? But this approach to one of my favourite card plots - Dr Daley's Last Aces - remains the killer it was when I first got it from him when it was a sneak preview at a British convention - and now I'm on my fourth set of cards.

There's something about the flow of the handling as it unfolds, and the cleanliness, and how crystal-clear the plot is. Along the way I have made a few tweaks to it (as has Jon, I'm sure), but it remains a modern classic of this crowded genre.

Which is interesting since in the 1970s packet tricks were all the rage - then they got pushed aside somewhat - but seem to have made a return over the last couple of years.

Anyway, this is well worth your attention.
Message: Posted by: HoDinhYu (Mar 4, 2016 12:59PM)
Jon's IS the best.
Message: Posted by: KentCarter (May 16, 2016 08:02AM)
This is a brilliant effect - I bought it when it was just released and it has been my opener for years. It's got all the ingredients: a clear premise, group participation, the magic happens in the specs hands and its all over in a minute. It aways gets great reactions. Thanks Jon Allen!
Message: Posted by: dirtyfoucault (Feb 16, 2021 11:42AM)
Very late to the party on this one, but...finally bought it after a Propdog live recommendation. In an age of substandard tricks disguised by pretty boxes (hello Summit) its nice to encounter a genius trick in misleadingly substandard packaging. If only it were possible to actually show people magic face-to-face right now :(

Only one issue is the move you have to do at the bottom of the pack. I can do a reasonable DL in the regular position but finding this slightly more fiddly. Anyone got any tips?
Message: Posted by: NicholasD25 (Feb 18, 2021 02:23PM)
[quote]On Feb 16, 2021, dirtyfoucault wrote:
Very late to the party on this one, but...finally bought it after a Propdog live recommendation. In an age of substandard tricks disguised by pretty boxes (hello Summit) its nice to encounter a genius trick in misleadingly substandard packaging. If only it were possible to actually show people magic face-to-face right now :(

Only one issue is the move you have to do at the bottom of the pack. I can do a reasonable DL in the regular position but finding this slightly more fiddly. Anyone got any tips? [/quote)

As you finish the Elmsley, keep a two card break. Then do a bottom stud double, which is very easy to do with only (four) cards, turning the two cards face up, then, flipping them over onto the other cards.

Audience reaction-wise, this trick is far superior to Doc Daley's last trick, IMO.
Message: Posted by: dirtyfoucault (Feb 18, 2021 04:01PM)
[quote]On Feb 18, 2021, NicholasD25 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 16, 2021, dirtyfoucault wrote:
Very late to the party on this one, but...finally bought it after a Propdog live recommendation. In an age of substandard tricks disguised by pretty boxes (hello Summit) its nice to encounter a genius trick in misleadingly substandard packaging. If only it were possible to actually show people magic face-to-face right now :(

Only one issue is the move you have to do at the bottom of the pack. I can do a reasonable DL in the regular position but finding this slightly more fiddly. Anyone got any tips? [/quote)

As you finish the Elmsley, keep a two card break. Then do a bottom stud double, which is very easy to do with only (four) cards, turning the two cards face up, then, flipping them over onto the other cards.

Audience reaction-wise, this trick is far superior to Doc Daley's last trick, IMO. [/quote]

Thanks for the advice. Not really familiar with the bottom stud double (or I am and have simply forgotten the name of it), where would be a good place for more info/tutorials?
Message: Posted by: NicholasD25 (Feb 18, 2021 05:39PM)
[quote]On Feb 18, 2021, dirtyfoucault wrote:
[quote]On Feb 18, 2021, NicholasD25 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 16, 2021, dirtyfoucault wrote:
Very late to the party on this one, but...finally bought it after a Propdog live recommendation. In an age of substandard tricks disguised by pretty boxes (hello Summit) its nice to encounter a genius trick in misleadingly substandard packaging. If only it were possible to actually show people magic face-to-face right now :(

Only one issue is the move you have to do at the bottom of the pack. I can do a reasonable DL in the regular position but finding this slightly more fiddly. Anyone got any tips? [/quote)

As you finish the Elmsley, keep a two card break. Then do a bottom stud double, which is very easy to do with only (four) cards, turning the two cards face up, then, flipping them over onto the other cards.

Audience reaction-wise, this trick is far superior to Doc Daley's last trick, IMO. [/quote]

Thanks for the advice. Not really familiar with the bottom stud double (or I am and have simply forgotten the name of it), where would be a good place for more info/tutorials? [/quote]

While holding the break, all of the cards are in dealing position in the left hand. Right hand approaches palm down. Pad of right middle finger is placed on the front right corner of the two bottom cards. Swivel the cards out using the left thumb base as a fulcrum. Once they clear the other two cards, turn them face up momentarily, Then flip them ,as one, face down onto the other two cards. Hope you can follow that.
Message: Posted by: dirtyfoucault (Feb 20, 2021 12:01PM)
[quote]On Feb 18, 2021, NicholasD25 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 18, 2021, dirtyfoucault wrote:
[quote]On Feb 18, 2021, NicholasD25 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 16, 2021, dirtyfoucault wrote:
Very late to the party on this one, but...finally bought it after a Propdog live recommendation. In an age of substandard tricks disguised by pretty boxes (hello Summit) its nice to encounter a genius trick in misleadingly substandard packaging. If only it were possible to actually show people magic face-to-face right now :(

Only one issue is the move you have to do at the bottom of the pack. I can do a reasonable DL in the regular position but finding this slightly more fiddly. Anyone got any tips? [/quote)

As you finish the Elmsley, keep a two card break. Then do a bottom stud double, which is very easy to do with only (four) cards, turning the two cards face up, then, flipping them over onto the other cards.

Audience reaction-wise, this trick is far superior to Doc Daley's last trick, IMO. [/quote]

Thanks for the advice. Not really familiar with the bottom stud double (or I am and have simply forgotten the name of it), where would be a good place for more info/tutorials? [/quote]

While holding the break, all of the cards are in dealing position in the left hand. Right hand approaches palm down. Pad of right middle finger is placed on the front right corner of the two bottom cards. Swivel the cards out using the left thumb base as a fulcrum. Once they clear the other two cards, turn them face up momentarily, Then flip them ,as one, face down onto the other two cards. Hope you can follow that. [/quote]

Hey man, thanks for the tips. I'm getting there with it, just a bit of a perfectionist with these things. So your right fingers are face down at the point they come into contact with the corner of the bottom two cards? And are you using your forefinger and thumb to pinch then swivel the bottom two cards out?

Just to clarify, the King of Clubs has been dealt down at this stage right? Cheers mate.
Message: Posted by: NicholasD25 (Feb 20, 2021 01:05PM)
Dirtyfoucault, yes and yes.
Message: Posted by: dirtyfoucault (Feb 23, 2021 10:26AM)
[quote]On Feb 20, 2021, NicholasD25 wrote:
Dirtyfoucault, yes and yes. [/quote]

Thanks man. With your help I finally nailed it over the weekend :)