(Close Window)
Topic: Me playing with my christmas present. (Ambitious card routine)
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 09:13AM)
My sister gave me a dragon back deck. Here is a video of me messing with it :3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiHbcx6Hnlw&feature=youtu.be


looks a bit sloppy to me... :/ I'm used to worn out decks. Switching to a new deck is a bigger difference than I thought lol XD
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Dec 27, 2012 11:03AM)
That's a great sister you have!

If I could handle cards as well as you, I wouldn't spend so much time picking them up off the floor.

Thanks for sharing. Glad you had a Merry Christmas!
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 11:07AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:03, Zombie Magic wrote:
That's a great sister you have!

If I could handle cards as well as you, I wouldn't spend so much time picking them up off the floor.

Thanks for sharing. Glad you had a Merry Christmas!
[/quote]

Not sure if your actually serious about the comment about handling cards.... But thank you either way!
Message: Posted by: Uli Weigel (Dec 27, 2012 11:29AM)
This "routine" has to be a joke or parody or something. At least I hope so.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 11:37AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:29, Uli Weigel wrote:
This "routine" has to be a joke or parody or something. At least I hope so.
[/quote]
The presentation isn't serious. Just me fooling around...
Message: Posted by: Uli Weigel (Dec 27, 2012 11:45AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:37, Nicholas Night wrote:
The presentation isn't serious...
[/quote]

But your card handling is?
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 11:47AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:45, Uli Weigel wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:37, Nicholas Night wrote:
The presentation isn't serious...
[/quote]

But your card handling is?
[/quote]

Like I said. Used to more worn out decks. This is just me screwing around with my new one. IF you'd like to critique. that's fine. But try and make it constructive?
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 27, 2012 12:16PM)
Good Lord!!! Constructive? Okay, just a start. Stop pushing the vital card to center(?) from the back. Please!
Message: Posted by: Uli Weigel (Dec 27, 2012 12:18PM)
Constructive critique? Okay: Practice, practice, practice! Don't waste our precious time with unrehearsed card abuse like that. Thank you.
Message: Posted by: Jay Mahon (Dec 27, 2012 12:33PM)
My god, you people are cruel.

Nicholas, your card handling is very amateurish, that is what people are trying to say.

You should hold the deck in a dealers grip, thumb on top fingers curling around the side and first finger curling around the front.

What Mr Lorayne is saying, is that you are using a technique that makes it possible to insert the card from the front edge of the deck. You keep putting it in the back of the deck. If you put the card in from the front, it will look more fair, open and less covered of course.

You appear to learn magic from videos, that is what your handling appears to indicate. If not, I'd love to know what sources you learn from. Consider Roberto Giobbi's Card College Vol 1 for some great basic instruction on how to properly hold and handle cards.

Keep at it! Keep practicing, and enjoy those beautiful cards!

J
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Dec 27, 2012 12:38PM)
Well, guess a new deck of cards does not a card man make. Tough crowd but they pretty much speak the truth as to young Mr. Night here. You want constructive, well you got Harry Lorayne here yelling "Curtains!" on you. :D You got card men from other countries yelling the same things really. It might not feel too good to your ego but it's pretty constructive alright.

Son, before you take any stage, anywhere again --- Practice, practice, practice and then practice some more...Take a nap, then get up and brush your teeth and then practice some more for good measure. :)

More seriously, welcome to the Café. :)
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Dec 27, 2012 12:41PM)
Definitely needs some work, but hey, much kudos to you for showing us where you're currently at! Keep learning and practicing, can't wait to see some of your work in the future!
Message: Posted by: mtpascoe (Dec 27, 2012 12:44PM)
Most important Nicholas, take what is said as comments to help you get better. Don't quit practicing. And don't take this the wrong way, I am just trying to help, don't perform anything, even to fellow magicians, until you have perfected it. I know some times you want help, and I understand that it's not going to be polished, but put in a little more time, then show us again, and we will assist you again.

And that's how you can utilize a forum like this. We are there to help each other.

P.S. You can really learn a lot from Mr. Lorayne.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 12:49PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 13:33, Jay Mahon wrote:
My god, you people are cruel.

Nicholas, your card handling is very amateurish, that is what people are trying to say.

You should hold the deck in a dealers grip, thumb on top fingers curling around the side and first finger curling around the front.

What Mr Lorayne is saying, is that you are using a technique that makes it possible to insert the card from the front edge of the deck. You keep putting it in the back of the deck. If you put the card in from the front, it will look more fair, open and less covered of course.

You appear to learn magic from videos, that is what your handling appears to indicate. If not, I'd love to know what sources you learn from. Consider Roberto Giobbi's Card College Vol 1 for some great basic instruction on how to properly hold and handle cards.

Keep at it! Keep practicing, and enjoy those beautiful cards!

J
[/quote]


I do believe you'd be mistaken in that, I'm sure a method for inserting from the front exists, but the method I'm using I'm fairly certain would be spotted every time if I did it in the front. Perhaps someone could show me the handling for inserting it in the front in a pm? Also, until recently, I have not had any magic books. I never could afford much, so I learned however I could. Anytime I could buy magic, it always seemed to go into an effect or gimmick. (Hummers whirling card. TKO 2.0 gene anderson tear etc.)Good stuff. Though I guess my card magic would be better if I had books. I was recently given PDF's of several books. But cant say I've3 read throught them yet.
the titles being
> <Jean Hugard & Frederick Braue - Expert Card Technique.pdf>
> <Jean Hugard - Encyclopedia of Card Tricks.pdf>
> <The Royal Road To Card Magic.pdf>
> <Jean Huguard - Card Manipulations 5.pdf>
Jean Huguard - Card Manipulations 1.pdf Jean Huguard - Card Manipulations 1.pdf
Jean Huguard - Card Manipulations 2.pdf Jean Huguard - Card Manipulations 2.pdf
Annemann - 202 Methods of Forcing.pdf Annemann - 202 Methods of Forcing.pdf
Jean Huguard - Card Manipulations 3.pdf Jean Huguard - Card Manipulations 3.pdf
Jean Huguard - Card Manipulations 4.pdf Jean Huguard - Card Manipulations 4.pdf
Si Stebbins - Card Tricks.pdf Si Stebbins - Card Tricks.pdf
Erdnase.pdf Erdnase.pdf


Also, while I'm certain the handling you are trying to direct me to is superior, I do think you are being a bit harsh on whats in the video. For every layman I've performed it to, (Including nasty relatives who burn your hands and scream everything htye see.) Its fooled. But, I would DEFINITLY like to know how you are saying it can be done from the front.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 27, 2012 01:06PM)
If T**t is under discussion, I have methods for inserting via the side in SPECIAL EFFECTS, but - check out my ACR in my book or you can see me perform it (not under best of circumstances) at http://www.youtube.com/harrylorayneonvideo . And, you'll see that I don't use T**t at all. Didn't know it when I originally put the routine together - and don't need it now that I do know it.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Dec 27, 2012 01:10PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:07, Nicholas Night wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:03, Zombie Magic wrote:
That's a great sister you have!

If I could handle cards as well as you, I wouldn't spend so much time picking them up off the floor.

Thanks for sharing. Glad you had a Merry Christmas!
[/quote]

Not sure if your actually serious about the comment about handling cards.... But thank you either way!
[/quote]

I was serious. Have you seen my youtube videos? Of course not, because I can't handle cards like you. They do actually fall on the floor. My hands have issues. So...I go painfully slow and cautious.

I liked your video.
Message: Posted by: mehdielamri (Dec 27, 2012 01:13PM)
Hey , firt welcome to the Nicholas Night :)
like everyone else said , you nedd to practice & practice
good luck ;)
Mehdi .
Message: Posted by: mtpascoe (Dec 27, 2012 01:14PM)
See what I was saying about Mr. Lorayne. Still one of the best.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 01:17PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 14:06, Harry Lorayne wrote:
If T**t is under discussion, I have methods for inserting via the side in SPECIAL EFFECTS, but - check out my ACR in my book or you can see me perform it (not under best of circumstances) at http://www.youtube.com/harrylorayneonvideo . And, you'll see that I don't use T**t at all. Didn't know it when I originally put the routine together - and don't need it now that I do know it.
[/quote]
IT may be some time before I have access to the explanation then. Thank you fo the link to your performance, I just watched it, VERY impressive. GOing to be difficult to learn from you did it so well! haha.


[quote]
On 2012-12-27 14:10, Zombie Magic wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:07, Nicholas Night wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:03, Zombie Magic wrote:
That's a great sister you have!

If I could handle cards as well as you, I wouldn't spend so much time picking them up off the floor.

Thanks for sharing. Glad you had a Merry Christmas!
[/quote]

Not sure if your actually serious about the comment about handling cards.... But thank you either way!
[/quote]

I was serious. Have you seen my youtube videos? Of course not, because I can't handle cards like you. They do actually fall on the floor. My hands have issues. So...I go painfully slow and cautious.

I liked your video.
[/quote]
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'd hate to 'waste everyones precious time.'
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Dec 27, 2012 02:57PM)
Nicholas,

hey bud, send me a PM anytime and I will give you some pointers and direct you to a few youtube videos that I have that might shed some light.

I personally saw a lot of potential in the video, just a few ruff areas....anyhoo, like I said, shoot me a line.

Billy
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 10:26PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 15:57, Billy-one wrote:
Nicholas,

hey bud, send me a PM anytime and I will give you some pointers and direct you to a few youtube videos that I have that might shed some light.

I personally saw a lot of potential in the video, just a few ruff areas....anyhoo, like I said, shoot me a line.

Billy
[/quote]

Took a look at the video. I took your advice ont he angle of the deck. Totally agree, looks much better. Also sent you a question.
Thank you!
Message: Posted by: Blindside785 (Dec 27, 2012 10:40PM)
That's some interesting card handling you have there sir.

What sources do you have to learn from? If you don't mind me asking.

Take a little look at your handling, the mechanics grip helps out a lot. If you have a proper mechanics grip you won't have to square a lot like you have to. This includes your first finger along the front of the deck. HINT: This will also help with your TILT move, having a proper mechanics grip.

Look up Aaron Fisher's Card Magic Minute's for some helpful info on how to hold a deck.

The TILT move does not have to be done closer to chest level. YOu lsoe sight of the card that way, making less conviction and belief that the card is going in the center of the deck.

What happened at 1:45, don't do that again.

If you get a handle on finger breaks, buckling to get a bottom card break, getting a break with your pinky, etc, you'd have a lot less fiddling with the deck. There should be no excuse to have your body squaring up the deck.

It's obvious you have the knowledge to do these things, but there is a lot of work you need to do in order for there be finesse.
Message: Posted by: Blindside785 (Dec 27, 2012 10:52PM)
Watch Tommy Wonder's Handling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Watch Daryl's finesse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Don't just watch, study, get whatever source these are from, learn from them. Get a good source you can learn from. Harry Lorayne has great material on the subjects of cards. Marlo, Vernon, Gregory Wilson (Technonic Pasteboards) GO GO GO!
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 10:58PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 23:40, Blindside785 wrote:
That's some interesting card handling you have there sir.

What sources do you have to learn from? If you don't mind me asking.

Take a little look at your handling, the mechanics grip helps out a lot. If you have a proper mechanics grip you won't have to square a lot like you have to. This includes your first finger along the front of the deck. HINT: This will also help with your TILT move, having a proper mechanics grip.

Look up Aaron Fisher's Card Magic Minute's for some helpful info on how to hold a deck.

The TILT move does not have to be done closer to chest level. YOu lsoe sight of the card that way, making less conviction and belief that the card is going in the center of the deck.

What happened at 1:45, don't do that again.

If you get a handle on finger breaks, buckling to get a bottom card break, getting a break with your pinky, etc, you'd have a lot less fiddling with the deck. There should be no excuse to have your body squaring up the deck.

It's obvious you have the knowledge to do these things, but there is a lot of work you need to do in order for there be finesse.
[/quote]

I agree witht he mechanics grip, I don't know hwy I wasn't doing that before, especiialy since I already knew the grip! I'm self taught, the books that I RECENTLY got, you can see in my earlier post. Mostly I've learned from videos, or any tutorial/instructions I could find online.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 11:01PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 23:52, Blindside785 wrote:
Watch Tommy Wonder's Handling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Watch Daryl's finesse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Don't just watch, study, get whatever source these are from, learn from them. Get a good source you can learn from. Harry Lorayne has great material on the subjects of cards. Marlo, Vernon, Gregory Wilson (Technonic Pasteboards) GO GO GO!
[/quote]

Thank you! I'll definitly look into that.
Message: Posted by: oscarf (Dec 28, 2012 10:15AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-28 00:01, Nicholas Night wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 23:52, Blindside785 wrote:
Watch Tommy Wonder's Handling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Watch Daryl's finesse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Don't just watch, study, get whatever source these are from, learn from them. Get a good source you can learn from. Harry Lorayne has great material on the subjects of cards. Marlo, Vernon, Gregory Wilson (Technonic Pasteboards) GO GO GO!
[/quote]

Thank you! I'll definitly look into that.
[/quote]

Two thoughts:

1) When I was younger, I concentrated on the mechanics of card work, thinking that if I could do them, I could do magic. And I fooled people too, and some thought some of it was "amazing." I would be embarrassed to tell you how old I was before I realized that a unique personal style, coherent story-telling, and smooth choreographed hand movements were incredibly important. If I could go back, I'd learn that first, and then the moves, which have to be good to truly fit into the style part, but we don't learn anything that way. Style has to be tempered in the crucible of endless public performances. But don't neglect it. I'd suggest memorizing some patter (even if you don't stick to it) if you haven't already. Tommy Wonder's performance in that YouTube says it all. It doesn't get better than that.

2) Take note of the male spectator helping Tommy out. His name is David. As far as I can tell, he and the redoubtable Janel are professional magic spectators. I feel this may be an alternative career path for those of us who will never be Tommy Wonder ;) (not aimed at you, Nicholas, just a nod to Tommy's greatness, and David's!)
Message: Posted by: Marlin1894 (Dec 28, 2012 02:56PM)
I think that's enough of the internet for me today. Merry Christmas, congrats on the new deck of cards.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 28, 2012 04:08PM)
I agree on the patter/performance advice. And I do take care with my presentations when actually performing.
With many things I may be guilty of copying the greats. (My fireeating is almost EXACTLY like Brian Brushwoods, only he does it better. lol.)
But I do things on a small enough scale at the moment where it doesan't matter so much, before I do anything serious with it I plan opn having it evolved enough to be my own thing,
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Dec 28, 2012 05:18PM)
Hey Nick,

I hope you take all this ribbing in stride because within it all is people just wanting you to know better and be better. I hope you got that most of all from all this. :)

You're already getting a lot of good pointers, so soak it all up and learn. One day, you'll look back on all this and it will be a part of when your road in card magic began straightening out for you. :)

Actually, I am a coin guy that like the cards a bit too. Now I'm no Harry Lorayne (And he ain't no me with coins either) :D See for yourself. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxTF04vddfo

But I've been practicing with cards and I'm a heckuva lot better than I ever was with just a better understanding and handling of some basic moves. I don't do a lot of card stuff but can do a few things well now that make a decent coin guy like me look like a pretty good-enough card guy. I think you can do it too and you will. ;)

-Mb
Message: Posted by: MuscleMagic (Dec 29, 2012 03:09AM)
As ricky jay says when he does some of his moves "this is an acquired skill" in other words, watch the pros, read their books / view their dvd's and practive and never stop practicing.

is that a gun by the door?
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 29, 2012 03:18AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-29 04:09, MuscleMagic wrote:
As ricky jay says when he does some of his moves "this is an acquired skill" in other words, watch the pros, read their books / view their dvd's and practive and never stop practicing.

is that a gun by the door?
[/quote]

I went back to check and I notice two dislikes. I seriously laughed my ass of that two Café members took the time to dislike it.


But err... Yes. That is a gun.
Although it doesn't shoot bullets, it's air soft. Just yesterday a navy vet commented that it looked exactly like the rifle he used.
Apparrently my sniper looked real as well. Godda love air soft :3
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 29, 2012 05:32AM)
But you offered up 4 minutes of your 'card magic'. It only takes a second to click on a button.

I won't give my opinion: you have been given some very sound advice. Harry Lorayne commented on your efforts: do you know who he is?

By the way, claiming that the final card is the selection, while flashing the blue back, is a poor idea. "Ambitious Card" routines often have the card signed.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 29, 2012 12:22PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-29 06:32, tomsk192 wrote:
But you offered up 4 minutes of your 'card magic'. It only takes a second to click on a button.

I won't give my opinion: you have been given some very sound advice. Harry Lorayne commented on your efforts: do you know who he is?

By the way, claiming that the final card is the selection, while flashing the blue back, is a poor idea. "Ambitious Card" routines often have the card signed.
[/quote]

Actually. I have a method for the card in the other deck to be signed, whether it stays dragonback or turns blue. However, I don't have the moves down and didn't wanna reveal it early lol XD
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Dec 29, 2012 02:58PM)
Why be picky? Every other method was revealed.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 29, 2012 03:41PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-29 15:58, tomsk192 wrote:
Why be picky? Every other method was revealed.
[/quote]

Everyone knows how ambitious card works.
Not nearly as many people know how to make a signed card switch decks, and backs.
Literally. You can show both side of the card. Its a signed dragon back. do the ambitious card,routine, then end by using tool to reveal the signed card in the other deck. either with the same back or a different back.
Message: Posted by: Count Lustig (Dec 29, 2012 05:35PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 13:49, Nicholas Night wrote:
...I do think you are being a bit harsh on whats in the video...
[/quote]
That's your real problem. Unless you develop a self-critical faculty, none of the advice in this thread will help you.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 29, 2012 05:49PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-29 18:35, Count Lustig wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 13:49, Nicholas Night wrote:
...I do think you are being a bit harsh on whats in the video...
[/quote]
That's your real problem. Unless you develop a self-critical faculty, none of the advice in this thread will help you.
[/quote]

I'm definitely critical of it. All I meant is that the harsh words the video got were perhaps a bit overkill. To a magician? Yes. The performance was rubbish. To most laymen? It could look better. But only one person said she could see how it was done. She said I had a stack of ten of diamonds on top.
Does it NEED improvement? YES. Is it a horrible worthless performance? No, I don't think so. It's entertained a few people, and I cant help but smile when I think of that.

The video hasn't revealed anything, as those who see it, already knew it. The Laymen I showed the video to? They all loved it. I'm always critical of my work. I see mistakes in my work (Not necessarily magic.) Where other people say its perfect.

So... looking back at the video. Yes. Its bad. But there is some goodness in it.
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Dec 29, 2012 07:01PM)
The best part of the video, atleast why I like it, is that you actually put it on the Café. Its hard to let these "magicians" see your chops and its even harder to deal with them afterwards. The truth of the matter is that some of your card chops need work, but then again.....almost everyones does. But here is the kicker, I have watched a lot of videos from other people on this board (even some of the so called VIPs) and I could trash them as some of the people have done to you....why, becuse I feel like I am more polished then they are, but bashing them only breeds harsh conditions (jerry springer style entertainment) and not much constructive words come from said posts.

Anyhoo, I dig your style, and that vid I told you about should be sent later tonight.

Billy
Message: Posted by: Jamie D. Grant (Dec 29, 2012 07:18PM)
Whoa, let's leave the so-called VIPs out of this, lol.

And I think something to consider when offering videos up to be viewed is whether you're looking for help, or praise. If it's not clear, it can be hard to take one when you would like the other.
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Dec 29, 2012 07:38PM)
Mr. Grant,

Lol, you sir where not one of the VIPs I was refering too, nor SEY or many of the others.

I commented on another post regarding the looking for praise and I agree with what you are saying, however looking for critique versus what Mr. Night encountered are fully diffrent.

I try to conduct myself like I would if I was speaking to someone in person, and belive me when I say that I would not talk to a "kid" in the harsh way that some on this topic have.

Billy
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 29, 2012 09:07PM)
The first issue here is that one or two of the comments were non-constructive and insulting at best. Those comments did not offer any help whatsoever. Like this:
[quote]
On 2012-12-27 12:29, Uli Weigel wrote:
This "routine" has to be a joke or parody or something. At least I hope so.[/quote]
I fail to see how that and the related comments helped anyone at all. But if the poster could enlighten me as to how his comment was intended to be anything other than insulting, I welcome the correction.

The second issue here, as some pointed out, is that the OP is very defensive in regards to the comments. Well, I think that's a relatively normal reaction given that the above comment was only the second one. I think most anyone would be defensive after that.

sey
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Dec 29, 2012 09:09PM)
Agreed with SEY, as per the norm
Message: Posted by: John C (Dec 29, 2012 10:15PM)
There's always next Christmas Nico!

J
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 29, 2012 10:20PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-29 23:15, John C wrote:
There's always next Christmas Nico!

J
[/quote]
MAke a tradition of it! New deck. New ambitious card routine every Christmas! Haha.
Message: Posted by: Uli Weigel (Dec 30, 2012 03:51AM)
Steven, from time to time I like to play the devil's advocate or a counterweight if you will, because I knew too well what would follow: the army of hapless helpers who only make things worse in my opinion. After watching the video of the thread opener, I figured from his voice and attitude he's not a little kid, so he could take a healthy dose of criticism, even a not so "constructive" one, whatever this means in that context. What's really harmful in magic forums is the massive and constant backslapping and pampering for even the worst demonstrations of incompetence. If you believe this kind of "help" helps beginner magicians, then I believe you live in a dream world. Detailed quality help or "constructive" criticism is lost on the thread opener, because he's obviously not ready for it. All the good will for nothing. It amazes me each time anew, that so many people new to magic looking at their freshly made video clips do not say to themselves "Nah, I can't show this around, it's not good enough" or "Oops, this needs more practice". Lacking self-criticism is in reality the problem here, and we all know, this is generally one of the biggest problems in magic clubs as well as in magic forums.

But back to the bad guy from Germany with his "non-constructive and insulting" post. What could actually happen? Nicholas may say to himself "Hm, I hate to admit it, but he's right, that was really bad", deletes the video and starts thinking and working on his trick. Good for him, good for magic. Or he may be intimidated and suddenly realizes that magic needs a lot of work and study and practice, that he decides to quit magic and looks for another hobby. Again, good for him, good for magic, because nobody needs more bad magicians who are in the game for all the wrong reasons. Or he may be angry at me and other critics, which may just as well ignite his ambition to become a good magician or at least a good video performer. Again, good for all of us. Or he decides to ignore all criticism and continue to do what too many do: buying more and more tricks, continue "learning" from dubious youtube videos, continue performing unrehearsed stuff, never study the important literature of the art, never develop a sense of what magic is all about, never getting any good, etc. etc. In that case, there's not much you can do about, at least not on a web forum.

Remember the Dai Vernon anecdote, where an amateur magician showed the professor a trick at the bar of Magic Castle? After the man finished his trick, eagerly awaiting the praise of the legendary magician, Vernon took the deck of cards out of his hand, threw over his shoulder and yelled at him: "You are the worst, no, you are the second worst magician I ever saw. Quit magic and start stamp collecting." The amateur magician was hit rock bottom and left. Vernon said to his friends: "You know what the real problem is with this guy? He can't take criticism." I always liked this anecdote.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 30, 2012 06:46AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
Steven, from time to time I like to play the devil's advocate or a counterweight if you will, because I knew too well what would follow: the army of hapless helpers who only make things worse in my opinion. After watching the video of the thread opener, I figured from his voice and attitude he's not a little kid, so he could take a healthy dose of criticism, even a not so "constructive" one, whatever this means in that context. What's really harmful in magic forums is the massive and constant backslapping and pampering for even the worst demonstrations of incompetence. If you believe this kind of "help" helps beginner magicians, then I believe you live in a dream world. Detailed quality help or "constructive" criticism is lost on the thread opener, because he's obviously not ready for it. All the good will for nothing. It amazes me each time anew, that so many people new to magic looking at their freshly made video clips do not say to themselves "Nah, I can't show this around, it's not good enough" or "Oops, this needs more practice". Lacking self-criticism is in reality the problem here, and we all know, this is generally one of the biggest problems in magic clubs as well as in magic forums.

But back to the bad guy from Germany with his "non-constructive and insulting" post. What could actually happen? Nicholas may say to himself "Hm, I hate to admit it, but he's right, that was really bad", deletes the video and starts thinking and working on his trick. Good for him, good for magic. Or he may be intimidated and suddenly realizes that magic needs a lot of work and study and practice, that he decides to quit magic and looks for another hobby. Again, good for him, good for magic, because nobody needs more bad magicians who are in the game for all the wrong reasons. Or he may be angry at me and other critics, which may just as well ignite his ambition to become a good magician or at least a good video performer. Again, good for all of us. Or he decides to ignore all criticism and continue to do what too many do: buying more and more tricks, continue "learning" from dubious youtube videos, continue performing unrehearsed stuff, never study the important literature of the art, never develop a sense of what magic is all about, never getting any good, etc. etc. In that case, there's not much you can do about, at least not on a web forum.

Remember the Dai Vernon anecdote, where an amateur magician showed the professor a trick at the bar of Magic Castle? After the man finished his trick, eagerly awaiting the praise of the legendary magician, Vernon took the deck of cards out of his hand, threw over his shoulder and yelled at him: "You are the worst, no, you are the second worst magician I ever saw. Quit magic and start stamp collecting." The amateur magician was hit rock bottom and left. Vernon said to his friends: "You know what the real problem is with this guy? He can't take criticism." I always liked this anecdote.
[/quote]


Again. Wrong. If I am doing it the wrong way, (Which apparently I was.) Then no amount of practice will EVER make it right. So simply saying, "You suck. Go practice." is not helping anyone. If you were to say, "That was horrible, it would be much better if you did X." And, if you are indeed correct about the quote, I cannot help but lose some respect for Dai Veron, great magician or no, that comment helped no one, instead of offering advice that would have been quite valuable, he insulted him. There is quite a difference between being unable to take criticism and not liking blanket insults with no explanation or advice for improvement.

Doesn't even take much to be helpful. For example, the remember to grip the cards properly seen earlier in the thread? It was taken to heart, and that combined with tilting the cards downward instead of up, has already made it quite better. Though I cannot say I do the t**t move perfectly, (The last person I showed it to said it looked like I was putting the card on the very bottom.) I can say that my ambitious card has already improved just from a few simple things.

To those that did offer their help, I thank you.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 30, 2012 08:32AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
Steven, from time to time I like to play the devil's advocate or a counterweight if you will... [/quote]
Uli,

Quite frankley, your post seems like a rambling rationilization and none of it answers my implied questions:

1) How was your initial post in this thread anything but insulting and hurtful?
2) How did it help the OP improve his magic?

[quote]
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
What's really harmful in magic forums is the massive and constant backslapping and pampering for even the worst demonstrations of incompetence. If you believe this kind of "help" helps beginner magicians, then I believe you live in a dream world.[/quote]
So there's only two choices? Backslapping or Public Humiliation? Really?

[quote]
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
Detailed quality help or "constructive" criticism is lost on the thread opener, because he's obviously not ready for it.[/quote]
This is actually plain wrong. I've been working with him in the last few days and he's taking criticism well. The difference is that I have the ability to tell him something's bad without using an outright insult and I'm willing to offer him a few solutions. All you were willing to do is tell him he sucks.

[quote]
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
It amazes me each time anew, that so many people new to magic looking at their freshly made video clips do not say to themselves "Nah, I can't show this around, it's not good enough" or "Oops, this needs more practice".[/quote]
In order to do that, beginners need to be taught [b]discernment[/b]. How would your technique acheive that? Just tell someone they suck repeatedly until they learn what they're doing wrong by trial and error?

[quote]
On 2012-12-30 04:51, Uli Weigel wrote:
Remember the Dai Vernon anecdote, where an amateur magician showed the professor a trick at the bar of Magic Castle? After the man finished his trick, eagerly awaiting the praise of the legendary magician, Vernon took the deck of cards out of his hand, threw over his shoulder and yelled at him: "You are the worst, no, you are the second worst magician I ever saw. Quit magic and start stamp collecting." The amateur magician was hit rock bottom and left. Vernon said to his friends: "You know what the real problem is with this guy? He can't take criticism." I always liked this anecdote.[/quote]
I guess that's a major difference between us. I think that anecdote makes Vernon look like a colossal as***le and you think it's model behavior.

And Uli-- I never said you were a bad person. And I understand your frustration. But the approach you used in this thread just won't work. In fact, it might have the opposite results you want-- if beginners stop posting videos, we won't have the chance to teach. And if we don't teach, then pretty soon they'll start taking money for shows when they simply don't have the ability to do more than the Svengali Deck. See?

sey
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 30, 2012 09:30AM)
Steven,

I have to agree with Uli and all the people that heavily criticised this performance. He wanted a true opinion? Then he has it. You gotta admit that if he performed this routine this way in front of ANY audience, it would be a disaster for him and for ANY OTHER MAGICIAN IN THE WORLD!

What was this stuff (I am talking to you, Nicholas Night, now)? You put the blame on the new pack of cards? Do you want me to believe that if you had done the same thing with a 'warn' pack it would have been perfect??? C'mon. Only the bad artisan blames his own tools!

I don't want to offend you, but this is what I call bad routining and poor practise! Nothing else! Am I harsh? Yes, sure I am!
D'ya wanna do a decent ACR? Then start by learning a good one out there! Suggestions? Here you are:


1. Dai Vernon's - The Dai Vernon Book Of Magic
2. Roberto Giobbi - Card College vol. 2 (simple and direct, but a perfect start)
3. Tommy Wonder's - In his videos - wonderful!
4. Not a big fan of it but Harry Lorayne's in his Close Up Card Magic has some good stuff in it

And these are just a few. David Regal, Michael Ammar are other names that pop into my mind right now. And once you've decided on your routine, then practice, pratice, practice for heaven's sake!!!

And please accept any criticism. It's the only way to improve...

mlippo
Message: Posted by: Bandaloop (Dec 30, 2012 09:46AM)
Mlippo - I think Steven's point wasn't that there shouldn't be any criticism, but that if there is it should be followed up with something constructive, such as you just did by pointing him in the right direction. You can be harsh, but being harsh and offering nothing else beyond insults doesn't help anyone.

I agree with all of the criticism that the OP received. However, just saying things along the lines of "you suck" and nothing else boils down to a simple attack, or in more extreme cases bullying. There's just no point in posting a statement like "this is horrible" and that's it. Might as well just not reply with anything. Even simply extending it to "this is horrible. you need to practice more" is better.

As for what Vernon said -- not everything that came out of the guy's mouth should be taken as religion. He was human just like all of us and had moments of uncontrolled anger like all of us as well. That anecdote, to me, is an example of what NOT to do. Unfortunately, I've been guilty of the same things, but I make an attempt to try to consciously avoid it.
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 30, 2012 10:01AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 10:30, mlippo wrote:
Steven,

I have to agree with Uli and all the people that heavily criticised this performance. He wanted a true opinion? Then he has it. You gotta admit that if he performed this routine this way in front of ANY audience, it would be a disaster for him and for ANY OTHER MAGICIAN IN THE WORLD!

What was this stuff (I am talking to you, Nicholas Night, now)? You put the blame on the new pack of cards? Do you want me to believe that if you had done the same thing with a 'warn' pack it would have been perfect??? C'mon. Only the bad artisan blames his own tools!

I don't want to offend you, but this is what I call bad routining and poor practise! Nothing else! Am I harsh? Yes, sure I am!
D'ya wanna do a decent ACR? Then start by learning a good one out there! Suggestions? Here you are:


1. Dai Vernon's - The Dai Vernon Book Of Magic
2. Roberto Giobbi - Card College vol. 2 (simple and direct, but a perfect start)
3. Tommy Wonder's - In his videos - wonderful!
4. Not a big fan of it but Harry Lorayne's in his Close Up Card Magic has some good stuff in it

And these are just a few. David Regal, Michael Ammar are other names that pop into my mind right now. And once you've decided on your routine, then practice, pratice, practice for heaven's sake!!!

And please accept any criticism. It's the only way to improve...

mlippo
[/quote]

The objection is not the criticism. It's the type of criticism. But That's been said repeatedly, and I don't believe anyone can explain it to you if you haven't gotten it already.

As for the pack of cards, I just find the DL's to be much easier on my more worn out packs. There was certainly some issues that using said packs would not have helped with.

[quote]
On 2012-12-30 10:46, Bandaloop wrote:
Mlippo - I think Steven's point wasn't that there shouldn't be any criticism, but that if there is it should be followed up with something constructive, such as you just did by pointing him in the right direction. You can be harsh, but being harsh and offering nothing else beyond insults doesn't help anyone.

I agree with all of the criticism that the OP received. However, just saying things along the lines of "you suck" and nothing else boils down to a simple attack, or in more extreme cases bullying. There's just no point in posting a statement like "this is horrible" and that's it. Might as well just not reply with anything. Even simply extending it to "this is horrible. you need to practice more" is better.

As for what Vernon said -- not everything that came out of the guy's mouth should be taken as religion. He was human just like all of us and had moments of uncontrolled anger like all of us as well. That anecdote, to me, is an example of what NOT to do. Unfortunately, I've been guilty of the same things, but I make an attempt to try to consciously avoid it.
[/quote]

Exactly. Also... I have a feeling there is more to that story, but I couldn't say for sure.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 30, 2012 10:37AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 10:46, Bandaloop wrote:
Mlippo - I think Steven's point wasn't that there shouldn't be any criticism, but that if there is it should be followed up with something constructive, such as you just did by pointing him in the right direction. You can be harsh, but being harsh and offering nothing else beyond insults doesn't help anyone.

I agree with all of the criticism that the OP received. However, just saying things along the lines of "you suck" and nothing else boils down to a simple attack, or in more extreme cases bullying. There's just no point in posting a statement like "this is horrible" and that's it. Might as well just not reply with anything. Even simply extending it to "this is horrible. you need to practice more" is better.

As for what Vernon said -- not everything that came out of the guy's mouth should be taken as religion. He was human just like all of us and had moments of uncontrolled anger like all of us as well. That anecdote, to me, is an example of what NOT to do. Unfortunately, I've been guilty of the same things, but I make an attempt to try to consciously avoid it.
[/quote]

I gave him some good advice: research for a good ACR routine and practise, practise, practise.

mlippo
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 30, 2012 10:39AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 11:01, Nicholas Night wrote:
[
As for the pack of cards, I just find the DL's to be much easier on my more worn out packs. There was certainly some issues that using said packs would not have helped with.

[quote]



Please! be honest with yourself. The problem is not JUST the DL's. If you do not admit this to yourself, then I dunno how you can be helped.

mlippo
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 30, 2012 10:45AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 09:32, Steven Youell wrote:
I've been working with him in the last few days and he's taking criticism well. The difference is that I have the ability to tell him something's bad without using an outright insult and I'm willing to offer him a few solutions. All you were willing to do is tell him he sucks.

sey
[/quote]

If he's paying you for help, then this could justify your public defense of his working. Hopefully he'll improve with your help. As you might remember we have had quite a private argument, but I cannot deny that you are probably a good teacher.

We'll see. Anyhow you must admit that what he showed us was very very bad.

mlippo
Message: Posted by: Bandaloop (Dec 30, 2012 10:45AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 11:37, mlippo wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 10:46, Bandaloop wrote:
Mlippo - I think Steven's point wasn't that there shouldn't be any criticism, but that if there is it should be followed up with something constructive, such as you just did by pointing him in the right direction. You can be harsh, but being harsh and offering nothing else beyond insults doesn't help anyone.

I agree with all of the criticism that the OP received. However, just saying things along the lines of "you suck" and nothing else boils down to a simple attack, or in more extreme cases bullying. There's just no point in posting a statement like "this is horrible" and that's it. Might as well just not reply with anything. Even simply extending it to "this is horrible. you need to practice more" is better.

As for what Vernon said -- not everything that came out of the guy's mouth should be taken as religion. He was human just like all of us and had moments of uncontrolled anger like all of us as well. That anecdote, to me, is an example of what NOT to do. Unfortunately, I've been guilty of the same things, but I make an attempt to try to consciously avoid it.
[/quote]

I gave him some good advice: research for a good ACR routine and practise, practise, practise.

mlippo
[/quote]

You did give him good advice. I pointed that out in my post. There's nothing wrong with being harsh as long as it's followed up with something helpful. You did just that.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 30, 2012 10:50AM)
Mlippo is "not a big fan" so he overlooked the fact that my ACR originally in C-UCM and re-written, updated, etc., in TCC,1 - and performed on youtube, and etc., has already been suggested in this thread a couple of times. Yes, many over the decades (like Whit Haydn) have told me that they use basically my routine that they learned from one or another of those books. So, I'm "not a fan at all" of mlippo, but can't disagree with his suggestion. HL.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 30, 2012 10:51AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 11:45, Bandaloop wrote:
You did give him good advice. I pointed that out in my post. There's nothing wrong with being harsh as long as it's followed up with something helpful. You did just that.
[/quote]

I'm glad you understood it. Let's hope he has the same feeling.

mlippo
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 30, 2012 10:55AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 11:39, mlippo wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 11:01, Nicholas Night wrote:
[
As for the pack of cards, I just find the DL's to be much easier on my more worn out packs. ------------------------------There was certainly some issues that using said packs would not have helped with.------------------------------

[quote]



Please! be honest with yourself. The problem is not JUST the DL's. If you do not admit this to yourself, then I dunno how you can be helped.

mlippo
[/quote]

Please reread what I said. I really hope you didn't actually read the whole thing then post that, seeing as how you said pretty much the same thing I did.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 30, 2012 10:59AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 11:50, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Mlippo is "not a big fan" so he overlooked the fact that my ACR originally in C-UCM and re-written, updated, etc., in TCC,1 - and performed on youtube, and etc., has already been suggested in this thread a couple of times. Yes, many over the decades (like Whit Haydn) have told me that they use basically my routine that they learned from one or another of those books. So, I'm "not a fan at all" of mlippo, but can't disagree with his suggestion. HL.
[/quote]

Harry, nice to hear from you again after such a long time we haven't had any debates on the forum! And what a great opportunity I gave you to talk about your re-write, update, etc. etc...
Let me first of all wish you a Happy New Year (too late for Xmas I'm afraid).

Now, seriously:
no, as I have already pointed out in some other thread I am not a fan of your ACR. I'd rather see others, but as I also said, you cannot go wrong if you like it and try to learn it. In my opinion you have published much better stuff and anyone interested in card magic should get your books since there's tons of good stuff in there for everybody's tastes! How about that, Larry? It might be Xmas, it might be the grappa's I've had after lunch, but I am being honest: you have good magic!

mlippo
Message: Posted by: Bandaloop (Dec 30, 2012 11:01AM)
I'm not sure how well calling him "Larry" is going to go over :)
Message: Posted by: MagicJuggler (Dec 30, 2012 11:13AM)
Another thing that you'll want to work on that hasn't been touched on yet is routining. There should be a flow to a ACR with a structure and it should continually build and seem more impossible as you go. Ideally you'll want to use methods that cancel each other out. It's my impression that you don't know quite enough moves yet to do this. Get Daryl's ambitious card video and you'll learn a lot about this type of routine in one place. Other than the technical flaws and unnatural DLs you literally do the same thing many times throughout the video. I can see there was a lot of "winging it" going on but if you want your ambitious card to improve you need to look at some good routines and notice how the trick builds to a climax instead of a bunch of repetitive moves with a sudden ending that's unrelated to the actual effect.
You've got a long way to go, but we've all been at that point as beginners as we muddled through as we tried to learn new things. I suggest you get Daryl's ambitious card video if you're looking at getting better at the ambitious card. Then start to study the ebooks you have. There's a lot in those books to learn. Start with the royal road to card magic before you tackle the others as it will lay a good groundwork for you. And remember, try to routine your movements and the individual phases of the trick so each builds on the other and the trick gets more impressive as you go. And you'll want to concentrate on learning a couple good DLs as they tend to be the foundational move in an ACR.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 30, 2012 11:15AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 12:01, Bandaloop wrote:
I'm not sure how well calling him "Larry" is going to go over :)
[/quote]

Ouch! That's the grappa effect I'm afraid... :-D
Sorry Harry!

mlippo

P.S.: I wrote "Harry" at the beginning of the post, though ...
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 30, 2012 12:00PM)
Yes, thanks for that great plug opportunity, mlippo. Don't know what I'd do without those great "openings" of yours. And, of course, you have great, really GREAT, taste. With me, guess it must be the vodka!! Unfortunately, I've not read any of [i]your[/i] stuff, so can't say whether or not I like or don't like it. Although, doubt if I'd do that, anyway. I've read I'm sure MUCH MORE than you have, and my attitude over the decades (two of those decades in APOCALYPSE) has been to either plug something or NOT MENTION IT AT ALL. I don't think that over the decades (that's about SEVEN of them!!!) I've said I didn't like something of someone else's perhaps twice - and then, I usually had a personal reason for that (like someone teaching one of things - badly, perhaps). Anyway, to each his own - there's obviously no way I would do it your way. Harry L.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 30, 2012 12:41PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 13:00, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Yes, thanks for that great plug opportunity, mlippo. Don't know what I'd do without those great "openings" of yours. And, of course, you have great, really GREAT, taste. With me, guess it must be the vodka!! Unfortunately, I've not read any of [i]your[/i] stuff, so can't say whether or not I like or don't like it. Although, doubt if I'd do that, anyway. I've read I'm sure MUCH MORE than you have, and my attitude over the decades (two of those decades in APOCALYPSE) has been to either plug something or NOT MENTION IT AT ALL. I don't think that over the decades (that's about SEVEN of them!!!) I've said I didn't like something of someone else's perhaps twice - and then, I usually had a personal reason for that (like someone teaching one of things - badly, perhaps). Anyway, to each his own - there's obviously no way I would do it your way. Harry L.
[/quote]

Sorry, but I do not get it! I just said that your AC routine is not one of the ones I'd praise, but I also said that you have published good card magic. I have never said that my stuff is better than any other's... I do not have any stuff, no problems admitting it.
I don't play any instrument, but nonetheless I can have my tastes in music and say what I like and what I don't. What's the difference with magic in this case? Or painting or any other kind of art?

mlippo
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 30, 2012 01:34PM)
No problem. There are opinions and opinions - you know the cliche, they're like *******s, everyone has one. In MY opinion, some opinions should not be stated publicly. That's it. Simple. That's MY opinion. Oh, and there is a LARGE difference between music, art, etc. They are not "niche" areas as is magic. There is quite a difference. If I say I really don't like Van Gogh, there's no way that opinion can hurt the Van Gogh estate, if there is such a thing. If I say I just LOVE Toulouse Lautrec - that sure "ain't" gonna help sell his paintings, since they sure as h*ll need no help from me. But if I say "opinionwise" that I LOVE Joe Blow's book on making animals disappear, that might just sell a few of Joe Blow's books within our "niche" society. And if I state "opinionwise" that I think Joe Blow's book on coin tricks is terrible - it may just hurt his sales in this "niche" society/milieu - SO I DON'T SAY IT, not publicly anyway. Sorry; from yours above I realize that you simply don't understand all this, so forgive me for stating my opinions. Sorry.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Dec 30, 2012 01:47PM)
Harry Lorayne's Ambitious Card:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp5fCdkipFE

It was in Harry's book Close-up Card Magic ( 1962 ) as "Lorayne's Ambitious Card Routine".

Much of it ended up in other Magician's books and later videos/DVD's. lol. That's how good it was/is.
Message: Posted by: ilmungo (Dec 30, 2012 06:21PM)
When I first started out in magic, like everybody else, I sucked for a while before getting decent. But magic is often a lonely pursuit, you hope that you're making progress at this business of "being deceiving," but it's hard to keep going on your own. Most people, as they're starting out, don't have many opportunities to perform for supportive strangers, and more to the point, you want to know whether the stuff you've been practicing actually [i]works[/i], whether you're getting any good. So what's a young magician to do? These days, you can put a video of yourself doing what you've been practicing on youtube, and see what people think.

So, for me, I was trying to figure out what I could film that wouldn't rely heavily on misdirection or be too obvious for a camera, and I settled on Triumph. Being a novice, of course, I hadn't yet read Stars of Magic, but after watching videos on youtube obsessively (not tutorials, performances), I worked out the correct method, then practiced it, and put it up. Retrospectively, it was an abysmal performance by my standards of today; but it would have fooled your average layman, although it probably looked quite "cozy". But I made the mistake of putting up a video of one of the holy effects in card magic, created by one of the holy caryatids of magic.

The first comment on my video was a kid destroying me completely, calling my performance an insult to magic, suggesting in very strong language that I do us all a favor and quit magic and take up stamp collecting, or better yet, die. He had obviously read the story about Vernon chewing up the inept magician, and was channeling that energy. Luckily, I picked up magic at the ripe age of 30, so I wasn't too shaken by it, but I still got defensive about it, dismissed the feedback, and clung to my guns, basically stating: "Look, I [i]know[/i] it's not perfect, but you don't have to be a jerk about it, how about some constructive criticism?" Sound familiar?

Slowly other comments started coming in which were helpful and encouraging (including Kent Gunn, with some good counsel on things that needed work), but ultimately, I had to dig deeper and find my own way to make that handling, and the quality of my card magic in general, better than it was. The first step was to let go of my ego and admit that, yes, that performance had big problems, and the bar should be much higher.

I have been thinking about that interaction several times in the last few years, because I can't quite decide whether it was helpful or not. Did I get better, at least partially, because of it, or [i]in spite[/i] of it?

I think that, if I had been a 16 year old kid and therefore more sensitive to what others think of me, I might have been completely crushed by that first response, and would have gone hiding under a rock, never to pick up a deck of cards again. I am very very happy I didn't do that, and while I still have a loooong way to go, I can honestly say my handling and, more importantly, performing skills are reaching the point where I can go in front of an audience, do a show, and they will walk away happy to have seen it.

But, on the other hand, without that first slap in the face I might not have realized that I needed to put some serious additional work into this magic thing before it was "good" by my would-be peers' standards. I might not have realized that there is "fooling laymen", and "performing magic well", and a rather large gap between the two. Because, guys, when I look back at that video (I have since removed it from youtube, don't worry) I cringe at how crappy it was.

This whole reminiscence is my way of reflecting on the difference between criticism, critique, and mentorship. It's easy and immediate to throw criticism at somebody's face, it takes no effort or thought on your part; it's harder to critique a performance trying to spot the good parts and the ones that need work, and what that work might be. And it is harder still to actually teach somebody how to get better.

Let me contrast that first story with another. A few months later I discovered that there is a place where I could go and meet other freaks like me, called a magic shop. One day I met another dude there who was chatting with the owner like they were old friends, and exuded an air of competence about cards. I was working through my Erdnase at the time, so I found the courage to ask him whether he could give me a couple of pointers on this sleight I was working on, the diagonal palm shift. Turns out that dude was Dorian Rhodell, who, in addition to being a badass card man, learned the DPS from Paul Chosse himself, so he's got a mean one. But more to the point: he asked me to show him how I would use it in a trick. I did so, certainly embarrassing myself in the process. But he didn't laugh at me, instead he went: "ok, so here's a couple of things..." and proceeded to break it down. Then he went a step further, and invited me to his show that night, saying he would throw in three DPSs in the second trick just for me, so I could see how the timing works in reality. I went, and I still missed the first one, even knowing it was coming, but got the drift, and it was a great lesson.

My point is Dorian took the time to be a mentor, not just tell me I sucked, even though he didn't know me from Adam. But also my attitude played a big part in it: I can now see that my first video posted on youtube came from a place of insecurity and needing to be "validated" by this nebulous community of magicians, I was [i]really hoping[/i] that everybody would just take a look and go: "yep, you got it, keep up the good work." When I asked Dorian for advice, instead, I was actually ready to learn and put some work in.

So, my question to Nicholas is: are you ready to learn, or did you just want some validation?

Respectfully,
Luigi
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 30, 2012 06:38PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 19:21, ilmungo wrote:
When I first started out in magic, like everybody else, I sucked for a while before getting decent. But magic is often a lonely pursuit, you hope that you're making progress at this business of "being deceiving," but it's hard to keep going on your own. Most people, as they're starting out, don't have many opportunities to perform for supportive strangers, and more to the point, you want to know whether the stuff you've been practicing actually [i]works[/i], whether you're getting any good. So what's a young magician to do? These days, you can put a video of yourself doing what you've been practicing on youtube, and see what people think.

So, for me, I was trying to figure out what I could film that wouldn't rely heavily on misdirection or be too obvious for a camera, and I settled on Triumph. Being a novice, of course, I hadn't yet read Stars of Magic, but after watching videos on youtube obsessively (not tutorials, performances), I worked out the correct method, then practiced it, and put it up. Retrospectively, it was an abysmal performance by my standards of today; but it would have fooled your average layman, although it probably looked quite "cozy". But I made the mistake of putting up a video of one of the holy effects in card magic, created by one of the holy caryatids of magic.

The first comment on my video was a kid destroying me completely, calling my performance an insult to magic, suggesting in very strong language that I do us all a favor and quit magic and take up stamp collecting, or better yet, die. He had obviously read the story about Vernon chewing up the inept magician, and was channeling that energy. Luckily, I picked up magic at the ripe age of 30, so I wasn't too shaken by it, but I still got defensive about it, dismissed the feedback, and clung to my guns, basically stating: "Look, I [i]know[/i] it's not perfect, but you don't have to be a jerk about it, how about some constructive criticism?" Sound familiar?

Slowly other comments started coming in which were helpful and encouraging (including Kent Gunn, with some good counsel on things that needed work), but ultimately, I had to dig deeper and find my own way to make that handling, and the quality of my card magic in general, better than it was. The first step was to let go of my ego and admit that, yes, that performance had big problems, and the bar should be much higher.

I have been thinking about that interaction several times in the last few years, because I can't quite decide whether it was helpful or not. Did I get better, at least partially, because of it, or [i]in spite[/i] of it?

I think that, if I had been a 16 year old kid and therefore more sensitive to what others think of me, I might have been completely crushed by that first response, and would have gone hiding under a rock, never to pick up a deck of cards again. I am very very happy I didn't do that, and while I still have a loooong way to go, I can honestly say my handling and, more importantly, performing skills are reaching the point where I can go in front of an audience, do a show, and they will walk away happy to have seen it.

But, on the other hand, without that first slap in the face I might not have realized that I needed to put some serious additional work into this magic thing before it was "good" by my would-be peers' standards. I might not have realized that there is "fooling laymen", and "performing magic well", and a rather large gap between the two. Because, guys, when I look back at that video (I have since removed it from youtube, don't worry) I cringe at how crappy it was.

This whole reminiscence is my way of reflecting on the difference between criticism, critique, and mentorship. It's easy and immediate to throw criticism at somebody's face, it takes no effort or thought on your part; it's harder to critique a performance trying to spot the good parts and the ones that need work, and what that work might be. And it is harder still to actually teach somebody how to get better.

Let me contrast that first story with another. A few months later I discovered that there is a place where I could go and meet other freaks like me, called a magic shop. One day I met another dude there who was chatting with the owner like they were old friends, and exuded an air of competence about cards. I was working through my Erdnase at the time, so I found the courage to ask him whether he could give me a couple of pointers on this sleight I was working on, the diagonal palm shift. Turns out that dude was Dorian Rhodell, who, in addition to being a badass card man, learned the DPS from Paul Chosse himself, so he's got a mean one. But more to the point: he asked me to show him how I would use it in a trick. I did so, certainly embarrassing myself in the process. But he didn't laugh at me, instead he went: "ok, so here's a couple of things..." and proceeded to break it down. Then he went a step further, and invited me to his show that night, saying he would throw in three DPSs in the second trick just for me, so I could see how the timing works in reality. I went, and I still missed the first one, even knowing it was coming, but got the drift, and it was a great lesson.

My point is Dorian took the time to be a mentor, not just tell me I sucked, even though he didn't know me from Adam. But also my attitude played a big part in it: I can now see that my first video posted on youtube came from a place of insecurity and needing to be "validated" by this nebulous community of magicians, I was [i]really hoping[/i] that everybody would just take a look and go: "yep, you got it, keep up the good work." When I asked Dorian for advice, instead, I was actually ready to learn and put some work in.

So, my question to Nicholas is: are you ready to learn, or did you just want some validation?

Respectfully,
Luigi
[/quote]

I wish I knew of a magic shop near me!

To answer your question. Both. I want to learn, and I'd like the validation, [i]When I get it right[/i] I haven't gotten it right yet, so for now. Just the learning.
Message: Posted by: Flyswatter (Dec 30, 2012 07:21PM)
I don't know about you Nicolas, but I would feel so accomplished as to having Steven Youell and Harry Loryane and Jamie D. Grant post in your thread lol. As for the so called "harsh" criticism remarks. I've been to some really harsh feedback sites called the Youtube that many people on the internet are just, trolls. However, I see nothing wrong with all these "harsh" remarks to be honest, you take it, you consider, you learn, you move on, you improve. I think many suggestions here are spot on. I'm not much of a card man myself, and I'm learning as well, but to be honest, I could not finish your video, sorry, didn't grab my attention at all, the comments on this thread was much more entertaining. Although after writing this I will finish watching it. Just remember: Keep going! We will all improve with time (with proper materials) :)
Message: Posted by: Flyswatter (Dec 30, 2012 07:33PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 19:21, ilmungo wrote:
When I first started out in magic, like everybody else, I sucked for a while before getting decent. But magic is often a lonely pursuit, you hope that you're making progress at this business of "being deceiving," but it's hard to keep going on your own. Most people, as they're starting out, don't have many opportunities to perform for supportive strangers, and more to the point, you want to know whether the stuff you've been practicing actually [i]works[/i], whether you're getting any good. So what's a young magician to do? These days, you can put a video of yourself doing what you've been practicing on youtube, and see what people think.

So, for me, I was trying to figure out what I could film that wouldn't rely heavily on misdirection or be too obvious for a camera, and I settled on Triumph. Being a novice, of course, I hadn't yet read Stars of Magic, but after watching videos on youtube obsessively (not tutorials, performances), I worked out the correct method, then practiced it, and put it up. Retrospectively, it was an abysmal performance by my standards of today; but it would have fooled your average layman, although it probably looked quite "cozy". But I made the mistake of putting up a video of one of the holy effects in card magic, created by one of the holy caryatids of magic.

The first comment on my video was a kid destroying me completely, calling my performance an insult to magic, suggesting in very strong language that I do us all a favor and quit magic and take up stamp collecting, or better yet, die. He had obviously read the story about Vernon chewing up the inept magician, and was channeling that energy. Luckily, I picked up magic at the ripe age of 30, so I wasn't too shaken by it, but I still got defensive about it, dismissed the feedback, and clung to my guns, basically stating: "Look, I [i]know[/i] it's not perfect, but you don't have to be a jerk about it, how about some constructive criticism?" Sound familiar?

Slowly other comments started coming in which were helpful and encouraging (including Kent Gunn, with some good counsel on things that needed work), but ultimately, I had to dig deeper and find my own way to make that handling, and the quality of my card magic in general, better than it was. The first step was to let go of my ego and admit that, yes, that performance had big problems, and the bar should be much higher.

I have been thinking about that interaction several times in the last few years, because I can't quite decide whether it was helpful or not. Did I get better, at least partially, because of it, or [i]in spite[/i] of it?

I think that, if I had been a 16 year old kid and therefore more sensitive to what others think of me, I might have been completely crushed by that first response, and would have gone hiding under a rock, never to pick up a deck of cards again. I am very very happy I didn't do that, and while I still have a loooong way to go, I can honestly say my handling and, more importantly, performing skills are reaching the point where I can go in front of an audience, do a show, and they will walk away happy to have seen it.

But, on the other hand, without that first slap in the face I might not have realized that I needed to put some serious additional work into this magic thing before it was "good" by my would-be peers' standards. I might not have realized that there is "fooling laymen", and "performing magic well", and a rather large gap between the two. Because, guys, when I look back at that video (I have since removed it from youtube, don't worry) I cringe at how crappy it was.

This whole reminiscence is my way of reflecting on the difference between criticism, critique, and mentorship. It's easy and immediate to throw criticism at somebody's face, it takes no effort or thought on your part; it's harder to critique a performance trying to spot the good parts and the ones that need work, and what that work might be. And it is harder still to actually teach somebody how to get better.

Let me contrast that first story with another. A few months later I discovered that there is a place where I could go and meet other freaks like me, called a magic shop. One day I met another dude there who was chatting with the owner like they were old friends, and exuded an air of competence about cards. I was working through my Erdnase at the time, so I found the courage to ask him whether he could give me a couple of pointers on this sleight I was working on, the diagonal palm shift. Turns out that dude was Dorian Rhodell, who, in addition to being a badass card man, learned the DPS from Paul Chosse himself, so he's got a mean one. But more to the point: he asked me to show him how I would use it in a trick. I did so, certainly embarrassing myself in the process. But he didn't laugh at me, instead he went: "ok, so here's a couple of things..." and proceeded to break it down. Then he went a step further, and invited me to his show that night, saying he would throw in three DPSs in the second trick just for me, so I could see how the timing works in reality. I went, and I still missed the first one, even knowing it was coming, but got the drift, and it was a great lesson.

My point is Dorian took the time to be a mentor, not just tell me I sucked, even though he didn't know me from Adam. But also my attitude played a big part in it: I can now see that my first video posted on youtube came from a place of insecurity and needing to be "validated" by this nebulous community of magicians, I was [i]really hoping[/i] that everybody would just take a look and go: "yep, you got it, keep up the good work." When I asked Dorian for advice, instead, I was actually ready to learn and put some work in.

So, my question to Nicholas is: are you ready to learn, or did you just want some validation?

Respectfully,
Luigi
[/quote]

That was a great read. Thank you for sharing your story.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 30, 2012 09:59PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 10:46, Bandaloop wrote:
I think Steven's point wasn't that there shouldn't be any criticism, but that if there is it should be followed up with something constructive, such as you just did by pointing him in the right direction. You can be harsh, but being harsh and offering nothing else beyond insults doesn't help anyone.[/quote]
You are correct. That was exactly my point.

sey
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 30, 2012 10:15PM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 10:30, mlippo wrote:
I don't want to offend you, but this is what I call bad routining and poor practise! Nothing else! Am I harsh? Yes, sure I am![/quote]
You're not only harsh, you're wrong. Simply telling someone that their problem is bad routining and poor practice is similar to a doctor giving a diagnosis and telling the paitent that now he knows what the problem is, so he should be able to find a treatment himself.

[b]I have an idea-- why don't you send me a link to something you've done and I'll give you two different critiques: the first one will be the type you advocate here and the second will be of the type that I advocate. That might clarify the differences for you.[/b]

[quote]
On 2012-12-30 11:45, mlippo wrote:
If he's paying you for help, then this could justify your public defense of his working.[/quote]
1) I'm not defending anything in the video.
2) If you're implying that my motivation for posting here is monetary, then I find that insulting. But for the record, he's not paying me. I offered to help him privately and at no cost.

sey
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Dec 30, 2012 11:01PM)
In general, I want Uli and Millipo to know that I understand their frustration. I've always said that Magic Clubs end up being counter-productive because they depend on dues to exist. That means that the first priority is to recruit and maintain members. This puts the priority on protecting fragile egos at the expense of honest critique.

The internet has made things even worse, though. Now we have people posting videos who have had little or no magic education other than what they find on the internet. Even worse, the internet seems to foster the attitude that if someone offers their opinion, that opinion has just as much as credibility as anyone else's opinion. Anonymous critics abound with their advice and we're not even sure if they've ever held a deck of cards in front of an audience. Some of this advice is good, but most of it is not and we're leaving it up to the recipient to decide which is which.

Unfortunately, taking the opposite approach and just telling people they suck will not fix this. In fact, it will probably do the opposite. If we throw insults at everyone who posts bad videos, then fewer people will post videos. And if fewer people post videos, we won't even know they're out there doing bad magic, and we certainly would not have the opportunity to correct them.

There are probably dozens of people on this forum (including Nicholas) that I've sent a message to that is similar to this:

[quote]You shouldn't post videos like that-- you weren't ready to perform that effect yet. I would be glad to help you, but you need to know that I'll be brutal. But I won't just tell you [i]why[/i] something sucks, I'll tell you how to fix it and do it better. So if your feelings are hurt easily, then just tell me and I won't offer opinions or advice. But if you have the ability to take the criticism and learn from it, then let me know and we'll begin.[/quote]
Not once has my advice been refused. Not because I'm some sort of SuperStar, but because most of them knew I was at least qualified to give advice, I warned them of the sting that was to come and told them that it had a purpose that would be helpful to them. Sometimes the advice is limited to a specific move or effect and other times it's grown to a sort of "internet mentorship".

Now look-- I'm no saint. I've made dozens and dozens of mistakes in the world of magic. And I mean horrible, awful mistakes that hurt people. I regret all of them and it's my guess that over time I'll find more of them to regret in my past. So I am just as guilty as anyone else in this thread of proferring the "YOU SUCK" type of critique. But I don't think I've done that for years.

I know that the approach I just described works. I know it works because of the number of other approachs I used that were NOT effective. I know it works because it was what my mentors used to bring me around when I was young. It works. I'm not under any delusion that I'll change the entire world of magic, but I'm old enough now to know that just changing how a few dozen people look at magic is significant.

Wow. That's enough words from me for now... sorry for rambling.

sey
Message: Posted by: Flyswatter (Dec 31, 2012 12:37AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-31 00:01, Steven Youell wrote:
In general, I want Uli and Millipo to know that I understand their frustration. I've always said that Magic Clubs end up being counter-productive because they depend on dues to exist. That means that the first priority is to recruit and maintain members. This puts the priority on protecting fragile egos at the expense of honest critique.

The internet has made things even worse, though. Now we have people posting videos who have had little or no magic education other than what they find on the internet. Even worse, the internet seems to foster the attitude that if someone offers their opinion, that opinion has just as much as credibility as anyone else's opinion. Anonymous critics abound with their advice and we're not even sure if they've ever held a deck of cards in front of an audience. Some of this advice is good, but most of it is not and we're leaving it up to the recipient to decide which is which.

Unfortunately, taking the opposite approach and just telling people they suck will not fix this. In fact, it will probably do the opposite. If we throw insults at everyone who posts bad videos, then fewer people will post videos. And if fewer people post videos, we won't even know they're out there doing bad magic, and we certainly would not have the opportunity to correct them.

There are probably dozens of people on this forum (including Nicholas) that I've sent a message to that is similar to this:

[quote]You shouldn't post videos like that-- you weren't ready to perform that effect yet. I would be glad to help you, but you need to know that I'll be brutal. But I won't just tell you [i]why[/i] something sucks, I'll tell you how to fix it and do it better. So if your feelings are hurt easily, then just tell me and I won't offer opinions or advice. But if you have the ability to take the criticism and learn from it, then let me know and we'll begin.[/quote]
Not once has my advice been refused. Not because I'm some sort of SuperStar, but because most of them knew I was at least qualified to give advice, I warned them of the sting that was to come and told them that it had a purpose that would be helpful to them. Sometimes the advice is limited to a specific move or effect and other times it's grown to a sort of "internet mentorship".

Now look-- I'm no saint. I've made dozens and dozens of mistakes in the world of magic. And I mean horrible, awful mistakes that hurt people. I regret all of them and it's my guess that over time I'll find more of them to regret in my past. So I am just as guilty as anyone else in this thread of proferring the "YOU SUCK" type of critique. But I don't think I've done that for years.

I know that the approach I just described works. I know it works because of the number of other approachs I used that were NOT effective. I know it works because it was what my mentors used to bring me around when I was young. It works. I'm not under any delusion that I'll change the entire world of magic, but I'm old enough now to know that just changing how a few dozen people look at magic is significant.

Wow. That's enough words from me for now... sorry for rambling.

sey
[/quote]

Oh man, don't be sorry at all! Very eye opening :)
Message: Posted by: Bandaloop (Dec 31, 2012 07:28AM)
You know -- One thing that Nicholas should be given credit for, which he hasn't, is that he put this up on You Tube and set it so only those with the link could see it. He could very easily have just uploaded it with no filter for the whole world to see. He obviously realizes that not every trick that is recorded should be plastered across the web. In that, he's light years ahead of most budding magicians.
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Dec 31, 2012 11:39AM)
Mr. Youell,

I never got a message like that :(

Billy
Message: Posted by: Corbett (Jan 3, 2013 12:52PM)
I'm guessing the OP has never seen really good magic, done really well. For example, if he had seen either live or in video, a professionally done Ambitious Card, perhaps he would see his own routine for what it is, and think twice about posting it publicly.
Message: Posted by: LiquidSn (Jan 3, 2013 01:07PM)
Nicholas Night,

Card College Vol.1

Close the thread.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 3, 2013 04:46PM)
Yeah, close the thread - LiquidSn has spoken!!! Amazing.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Jan 3, 2013 06:16PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 14:07, LiquidSn wrote:
Nicholas Night,

Card College Vol.1

Close the thread.
[/quote]

I would add Card College 2 as well, since a good Ambitious Card routine for beginners is there (along with many other sleights and effects and a wonderful chapter on theory which everyone should study!).

mlippo
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 3, 2013 07:59PM)
[b]Card Psalm 88:[/b]

All Hail Card College-- the sole resource anyone needs to learn Card Magic!
Card College and ONLY Card College will set you on the paths to righteousness!

Cursed are Hugard & Braue-- they are false gods who will lead you NOT unto salvation.
Cursed are Vernon & Marlo-- their spirits quiver in fear at the power of Giobbi.

Keep the law of Card College in your heart so you may not sin against the perfection
of Sleight of Hand.

If a beginner should stray from the righteous path of Card College, let him be
relegated to only doing the glide and working with small, dry hands.

If a Cardman dare suggest any other resource of help, let him be mocked in public,
shamed on the internet and banished from the Inner Circle.

Yea, those who do not worship Card College are anathema to all those who know
the true source of all perfection in Sleight of Hand: CARD COLLEGE!

ALL HAIL CARD COLLEGE!

<cue golden calf>
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Jan 3, 2013 08:24PM)
Didn't read all of this forum, but you need practice, and a lot of it, tempted to make a video response to attempt to help you out a bit, but I'm not sure where to even start.
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 3, 2013 08:24PM)
I have honestly never read a single page of it. Am I really missing so much?

BIlly
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Jan 3, 2013 08:26PM)
I read the first few, and skimmed the first few on the last page..... also, are you pointing your camera in a mirror or something? why is your shirt all backwards?
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Jan 3, 2013 08:33PM)
Pretend billy-one's post isn't in the middle of my two, my internet is being horrible so the edit button wouldn't work for me to add the thoughts I forgot into it
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 3, 2013 08:46PM)
Gary T.

You can add onto mine, as a starting off point...or change what I have said, perhaps diffrent perspectives will help.

Billy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMfGgtTE2gE
Message: Posted by: mfeld (Jan 3, 2013 09:36PM)
Card College is my recommendation for where beginners should start as well. There are, of course, other good starter books out there, but Card College is the most accessible both in terms of availability and readability.

Nicholas - from what I can see of your card magic in this video, it's probably a good idea to start at the very beginning. You can find Card College 1 for about $35 on Amazon: http://amzn.to/X4Fg7s If that's not an investment you're willing to make in your own magic, then there is very little anyone will be able to do to help you. If you make the investment and get serious about studying it, then hopefully videos like this will become a thing of your past. I know you said you don't have any magic books yet. It's about time you changed that if you want to become competent with sleight of hand.

It's hard to deny: When someone who handles cards as well as Tony Chang (liquidsn) so definitively recommends you pick up that book, it's probably a good idea to listen.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 3, 2013 09:54PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 22:36, mfeld wrote:
If that's not an investment you're willing to make in your own magic, then there is very little anyone will be able to do to help you.[/quote]
Yes, private lessons and/or mentorship are useless.

[quote]
On 2013-01-03 22:36, mfeld wrote:
It's hard to deny: When someone who handles cards as well as Tony Chang (liquidsn) so definitively recommends you pick up that book, it's probably a good idea to listen.[/quote]
Of course, if someone else that is as skilled as Tony Chang is diametrically opposed to that book, then who is right?

sey

P.S. No, I am NOT referring to myself-- just pointing out how problematic this is.
Message: Posted by: mfeld (Jan 3, 2013 10:16PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 22:54, Steven Youell wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 22:36, mfeld wrote:
If that's not an investment you're willing to make in your own magic, then there is very little anyone will be able to do to help you.[/quote]
Yes, private lessons and/or mentorship are useless.
[/quote]

Let's set the sarcasm aside for a moment. My post was a genuine attempt to provide meaningful advice on the level that seems appropriate for what I've seen so far. The magic I saw in the video demonstrates a profound lack of understanding for what goes on in a magic effect and what makes magic good or bad. It seems that Nicholas is missing the basic building blocks that any discrete advice would try to build on top of. He is missing the fundamentals that he would even need to accept and truly understand the advice. Card College 1 can help with that, but until he has the fundamentals, it does not seem to me that the advice that can fit in a thread post or PM is going to be of much use. Recommending Card College and linking to a place that Nicholas can buy the book inexpensively is a genuine attempt to point Nicholas in the right direction from where he is right now so he can truly improve.

Sure. If Nicholas wants to invest in private lessons or find a full-time mentor to teach those real fundamentals, that would obviously be great, but that seems like a larger leap than just picking up the basic book and starting from there.

--
As for the hypothetical regarding a card handler of equal quality objecting to Card College as fervently as Tony recommends it, I'll wait to see if there's a time when that happens. In the meantime, I myself independently highly recommend Card College volume 1. I think its the best starting tool there is and it is almost always my recommendation for a first book.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 3, 2013 11:09PM)
On 2013-01-03 23:16, mfeld wrote:
[quote]Let's set the sarcasm aside for a moment.[/quote]
OK

[quote]
On 2013-01-03 23:16, mfeld wrote:
My post was a genuine attempt to provide meaningful advice on the level that seems appropriate for what I've seen so far. The magic I saw in the video demonstrates a profound lack of understanding for what goes on in a magic effect and what makes magic good or bad.[/quote]
What if I told you in public that your advice demonstrates a profound lack of understanding on how to teach magic?
Don't you think doing that in private would be more beneficial to all involved? Those reading this? You? Me?

[quote]
On 2013-01-03 23:16, mfeld wrote:
It seems that Nicholas is missing the basic building blocks that any discrete advice would try to build on top of.[/quote]
He needs to learn [b]discernment[/b], which you cannot learn from just books. It requires much more than that and I'm not talking about humiliating him in public.

[quote]
On 2013-01-03 23:16, mfeld wrote:
Recommending Card College and linking to a place that Nicholas can buy the book inexpensively is a genuine attempt to point Nicholas in the right direction from where he is right now so he can truly improve.[/quote]
I understand that you meant no harm and were genuinely trying to help. I'm sorry if I gave you the opposite impression.

[quote]
On 2013-01-03 23:16, mfeld wrote:
As for the hypothetical regarding a card handler of equal quality objecting to Card College as fervently as Tony recommends it, I'll wait to see if there's a time when that happens.[/quote]
It's already happened. Just because someone doesn't post their opinion online or in public doesn't mean it didn't.
And just for the record-- this has nothing to do with Tony, per se. I highly respect him and his ability. But that
doesn't mean he and I have to agree on everything. At one time we had an argument, however at the last MagicCon, we
had a conversation that I'll value for the rest of my life.

Having said all of that, the last thing I want in my life right now is a heated argument. Nicholas isn't posting in this thread anymore and I can feel the temperature increasing. I will, therefore, stop annyoing you! LOL

sey
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Jan 3, 2013 11:41PM)
Well, as for my video, I shot it, but I can't get it to upload because my internet is being horrible, I'll try to post it tomorrow.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 4, 2013 07:56AM)
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 14:34, Harry Lorayne wrote:
No problem. There are opinions and opinions - you know the cliche, they're like *******s, everyone has one. In MY opinion, some opinions should not be stated publicly. That's it. Simple. That's MY opinion. Oh, and there is a LARGE difference between music, art, etc. They are not "niche" areas as is magic. There is quite a difference. If I say I really don't like Van Gogh, there's no way that opinion can hurt the Van Gogh estate, if there is such a thing. If I say I just LOVE Toulouse Lautrec - that sure "ain't" gonna help sell his paintings, since they sure as h*ll need no help from me. But if I say "opinionwise" that I LOVE Joe Blow's book on making animals disappear, that might just sell a few of Joe Blow's books within our "niche" society. And if I state "opinionwise" that I think Joe Blow's book on coin tricks is terrible - it may just hurt his sales in this "niche" society/milieu - SO I DON'T SAY IT, not publicly anyway. Sorry; from yours above I realize that you simply don't understand all this, so forgive me for stating my opinions. Sorry.
[/quote]

Doesn't that, potentially, weaken magic as a whole? That is, the opinions of people like yourself can have great influence in guiding others. That is why people look to reviews and comments of others. To help guide them through the crap.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 4, 2013 08:31AM)
I guess it's all according to WHOSE reviews, WHOSE comments. Then, choices need to be made. I guess. I read DEFINITE statements here from some who - and there's no way I can be sure of this - but from some who it seems do NOT have the knowledge, the know-how, to make those DEFINITE statements. Sorry - my opinion.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Jan 4, 2013 10:04AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 08:56, gdw wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 14:34, Harry Lorayne wrote:
No problem. There are opinions and opinions - you know the cliche, they're like *******s, everyone has one. In MY opinion, some opinions should not be stated publicly. That's it. Simple. That's MY opinion. Oh, and there is a LARGE difference between music, art, etc. They are not "niche" areas as is magic. There is quite a difference. If I say I really don't like Van Gogh, there's no way that opinion can hurt the Van Gogh estate, if there is such a thing. If I say I just LOVE Toulouse Lautrec - that sure "ain't" gonna help sell his paintings, since they sure as h*ll need no help from me. But if I say "opinionwise" that I LOVE Joe Blow's book on making animals disappear, that might just sell a few of Joe Blow's books within our "niche" society. And if I state "opinionwise" that I think Joe Blow's book on coin tricks is terrible - it may just hurt his sales in this "niche" society/milieu - SO I DON'T SAY IT, not publicly anyway. Sorry; from yours above I realize that you simply don't understand all this, so forgive me for stating my opinions. Sorry.
[/quote]

Doesn't that, potentially, weaken magic as a whole? That is, the opinions of people like yourself can have great influence in guiding others. That is why people look to reviews and comments of others. To help guide them through the crap.
[/quote]

For a software developer, it all gets down to these simple few code lines:

If Someone.Opinion <> Lorayne.Opinion then
Someone.Opinion = Crap
Else
Someone.Opinion = GoodThinking
End if

mlippo
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 4, 2013 10:34AM)
Now you're talkin'!! I don't understand it at all, but hey, Now you're talkin'!!!
Message: Posted by: Bandaloop (Jan 4, 2013 12:30PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 11:04, mlippo wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 08:56, gdw wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 14:34, Harry Lorayne wrote:
No problem. There are opinions and opinions - you know the cliche, they're like *******s, everyone has one. In MY opinion, some opinions should not be stated publicly. That's it. Simple. That's MY opinion. Oh, and there is a LARGE difference between music, art, etc. They are not "niche" areas as is magic. There is quite a difference. If I say I really don't like Van Gogh, there's no way that opinion can hurt the Van Gogh estate, if there is such a thing. If I say I just LOVE Toulouse Lautrec - that sure "ain't" gonna help sell his paintings, since they sure as h*ll need no help from me. But if I say "opinionwise" that I LOVE Joe Blow's book on making animals disappear, that might just sell a few of Joe Blow's books within our "niche" society. And if I state "opinionwise" that I think Joe Blow's book on coin tricks is terrible - it may just hurt his sales in this "niche" society/milieu - SO I DON'T SAY IT, not publicly anyway. Sorry; from yours above I realize that you simply don't understand all this, so forgive me for stating my opinions. Sorry.
[/quote]

Doesn't that, potentially, weaken magic as a whole? That is, the opinions of people like yourself can have great influence in guiding others. That is why people look to reviews and comments of others. To help guide them through the crap.
[/quote]

For a software developer, it all gets down to these simple few code lines:

If Someone.Opinion <> Lorayne.Opinion then
Someone.Opinion = Crap
Else
Someone.Opinion = GoodThinking
End if

mlippo
[/quote]

to pare it down even further:

while(horse != alive)
{
beat;
}
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 4, 2013 12:54PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 13:30, Bandaloop wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 11:04, mlippo wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 08:56, gdw wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-12-30 14:34, Harry Lorayne wrote:
No problem. There are opinions and opinions - you know the cliche, they're like *******s, everyone has one. In MY opinion, some opinions should not be stated publicly. That's it. Simple. That's MY opinion. Oh, and there is a LARGE difference between music, art, etc. They are not "niche" areas as is magic. There is quite a difference. If I say I really don't like Van Gogh, there's no way that opinion can hurt the Van Gogh estate, if there is such a thing. If I say I just LOVE Toulouse Lautrec - that sure "ain't" gonna help sell his paintings, since they sure as h*ll need no help from me. But if I say "opinionwise" that I LOVE Joe Blow's book on making animals disappear, that might just sell a few of Joe Blow's books within our "niche" society. And if I state "opinionwise" that I think Joe Blow's book on coin tricks is terrible - it may just hurt his sales in this "niche" society/milieu - SO I DON'T SAY IT, not publicly anyway. Sorry; from yours above I realize that you simply don't understand all this, so forgive me for stating my opinions. Sorry.
[/quote]

Doesn't that, potentially, weaken magic as a whole? That is, the opinions of people like yourself can have great influence in guiding others. That is why people look to reviews and comments of others. To help guide them through the crap.
[/quote]

For a software developer, it all gets down to these simple few code lines:

If Someone.Opinion <> Lorayne.Opinion then
Someone.Opinion = Crap
Else
Someone.Opinion = GoodThinking
End if

mlippo
[/quote]

to pare it down even further:

while(horse != alive)
{
beat;
}
[/quote]

Lmao!
Message: Posted by: LiquidSn (Jan 4, 2013 12:59PM)
You can get as opinionated as you want after you have learned the basics.

What's the point of arguing style, presentation, method, and/or theory when the kid doesn't even understand how to hold a deck?

I don't care if it's from Card College, Royal Road to Card Magic, Lorayne, Youell, and/or anybody else who want to pander their material, learn the basics first.

Then we can argue.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 4, 2013 10:39PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 13:59, LiquidSn wrote:
I don't care if it's from Card College, Royal Road to Card Magic, Lorayne, Youell, and/or anybody else who want to pander their material, learn the basics first.[/quote]
I do not understand what an almost extinct bear from Asia has to do with any of this.

sey
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Jan 5, 2013 03:21PM)
Not sure if anybody is still interested, but here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5xvqe7BumM one thing I wanted to say in the video but forgot to is that you need to use a break on your DL, its just sloppy if you don't in the video you posted you messed one up because you weren't using a break, even if you hit it 3/4 times and feel awesome, that's 1/4th of the time your spectator is gonna have a laugh at your expense when you mess it up.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 5, 2013 05:03PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-05 16:21, Gary T. wrote:
one thing I wanted to say in the video but forgot to is that you need to use a break on your DL, its just sloppy if you don't in the video you posted you messed one up because you weren't using a break, even if you hit it 3/4 times and feel awesome, that's 1/4th of the time your spectator is gonna have a laugh at your expense when you mess it up.[/quote]
Gary, could you please clarify that? Are you saying that all DL's need a break? Are you saying that Strike or Pushoff DL's need a break?

sey
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Jan 5, 2013 05:41PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-05 18:03, Steven Youell wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-05 16:21, Gary T. wrote:
one thing I wanted to say in the video but forgot to is that you need to use a break on your DL, its just sloppy if you don't in the video you posted you messed one up because you weren't using a break, even if you hit it 3/4 times and feel awesome, that's 1/4th of the time your spectator is gonna have a laugh at your expense when you mess it up.[/quote]
Gary, could you please clarify that? Are you saying that all DL's need a break? Are you saying that Strike or Pushoff DL's need a break?

sey
[/quote]
so sorry, my bad, What I was getting at is that at a beginners level he needs to be working with a break, as he did miss one in his video, I personally still use a break just because I like the extra security,

yes there are methods that do not require a break, but they need to be worked on a lot and it is my belief that you should learn with a break first.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 5, 2013 06:16PM)
I reckon this thread has had enough, given the subject. Folk will post on it, I'm sure, but really?

I haven't seen this much vitriol since Dickie Attenborough played 'Pinkie' in Brighton Rock.

It's, erm, "refreshing".
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 5, 2013 07:00PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-05 18:41, Gary T. wrote:
so sorry, my bad, What I was getting at is that at a beginners level he needs to be working with a break, as he did miss one in his video, I personally still use a break just because I like the extra security,

yes there are methods that do not require a break, but they need to be worked on a lot and it is my belief that you should learn with a break first.[/quote]
Now that I understand it, I can say that I disagree with your advice. I have personally taught students to use a push-off double and most of them are using it within a few weeks. And yes-- it's 100% sure. And I'm not special-- I'm sure there are many instructors out there with the same experience.

As to your video-- are you looking for critique? If so, I'll give it in private rather than in this thread...

sey
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Jan 5, 2013 11:51PM)
Well then, just two different views, I personally learned to use a break in the DL and still do it. but you're entitled to your own opinion for sure, as for the video, I made it to offer a bit of help to the op but with only 4 years of experience I'm certainly open to any and all critiques and suggestions, shoot me a pm. that video certainly wasn't my best performance but no excuses, anything you see that needs work I'd love to hear about. just keep in mind I had no real plans as to what I was going to do and I'm definitely not an impromptu genius haha.
Message: Posted by: Joe Momma (Jan 7, 2013 11:47AM)
I must say, top trolling from the OP. You fooled a lot of people into thinking you were serious. Well done!
Message: Posted by: Philip Busk (Jan 7, 2013 09:37PM)
I too support the right to arm bears.
Message: Posted by: Gary T. (Jan 8, 2013 05:17AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 22:37, Philip Busk wrote:
I too support the right to arm bears.
[/quote]gotta get one of those T-shirts
Message: Posted by: nathanmorris (Jan 8, 2013 12:56PM)
A few tips, try to relax, slow your movements down , feel the rythm. And also I can offer pointers if you would like , PM me any time. Just remember guys we were all beginners once , and the last thing we want to do is make Nicholas give up on magic , keep going and you'll soon be rewarded!

Nathan