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Topic: Best way to control selection to top/bottom
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 3, 2013 08:56AM)
Hi!
What would be a effective way to get the selection to the top/bottom?
The pass would of course be the smoothest, but I'd like something "a bit" easier.
I now use a pinky break, transfer to thumb break and cut the deck twice, but I find it to be sloppy, not too elegant and unreliable (maybe because of my handling:)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreaciated.
Message: Posted by: LiquidSn (Jan 3, 2013 09:21AM)
Hofzinser Cull. Card College 1.

Oh, and it is not 'of course' that the pass is the smoothest.
Message: Posted by: tenchu (Jan 3, 2013 09:22AM)
Bottom - underspread cull all the way.

Mike
Message: Posted by: Gulyás Imre Miklós (Jan 3, 2013 10:47AM)
Depends on the circumstances..
standing or sitting
surrounded or not
want the audience shuffle before it or not
etc.

your question is very vague.

Anyhow, learn the jog shuffle and its variants.
Message: Posted by: BarryFernelius (Jan 3, 2013 11:13AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 09:56, Montana76 wrote:
Hi!
What would be a effective way to get the selection to the top/bottom?
The pass would of course be the smoothest, but I'd like something "a bit" easier.
I now use a pinky break, transfer to thumb break and cut the deck twice, but I find it to be sloppy, not too elegant and unreliable (maybe because of my handling:)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreaciated.
[/quote]

There are a wide variety of moves that could be used. Which one is the best? Well, that depends...

Montana76, what are you doing just before the card is supposed to be controlled? (In other words, how are you getting into this move?)

What is the [i]external reality[/i] that you're trying to create? The internal, secret reality is that the card has been controlled. The external reality is what the audience is supposed to believe about the position of the card. For instance, you might want to have the audience believe that the card is buried in the center of the deck and definitely not on the top or the bottom. Or, you might want the audience to believe that the card is completely lost in the deck, and no one could possibly know its location. The external reality that you're trying to create is a constraint that you should consider.

Finally, what are you doing just after the card has been controlled? (That is, how are you getting out of this move?)

Once you have good answers to these questions, the proper move might suggest itself!
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 3, 2013 01:19PM)
Thank everybody for your replies.
The overhand shuffle with jog control is something I use from time to time. Do you recommend going straight into it from the spectator returns the card?
I really didn't think of going into this directly. Thank you!

Barry: I usually spread the cards and let the spectator choose. The spectator then inserts the card on the top of the left pack. I close the deck and get a pinky break. I cut 1/2 of the upper pack under the lower pack and then the next 1/2 leaving the selection on top. What is this move called by the way?

I've read a lot about Vinny Marinis Top Gun Control, but I haven't found anything written up about it and his DVD is out of print.. That move seems really
good by the way.

Tenchu: Would that be this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPI9_MkHaYc ?
Message: Posted by: billmarq (Jan 3, 2013 02:07PM)
If you use the riffle selection (not necessarily a force) you can move the selected card from the bottom of the top packet to the bottom of the deck using the Ovette/Kelly move from Magicana (by David Acer) in the May 2011 issue of Genii. I use this fairly often.
Message: Posted by: tenchu (Jan 3, 2013 02:56PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 14:19, Montana76 wrote:
...
Tenchu: Would that be this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPI9_MkHaYc ?
[/quote]

What an awful tutorial. But yes, that's basically it.

Mike
Message: Posted by: BarryFernelius (Jan 3, 2013 03:13PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 14:19, Montana76 wrote:
Barry: I usually spread the cards and let the spectator choose. The spectator then inserts the card on the top of the left pack. I close the deck and get a pinky break. I cut 1/2 of the upper pack under the lower pack and then the next 1/2 leaving the selection on top. What is this move called by the way?
[/quote]

That's called doing a double cut to bring the selected card to the top. (It may or may not be the best way to proceed.)

Now, what is the [i]external reality[/i] that you're trying to create after the card has been selected and returned to the pack? And what are you planning to do immediately after you've created that reality?
Message: Posted by: sroccaserra (Jan 3, 2013 03:26PM)
Hi,

As others have said, the answer would depend on the context.

But I like the Natural Jog Control and the Automatic Jog Control, from The Card Magic of Le Paul.

Or simply start an overhand shuffle, asking to say stop and put the card back on the left hand packet. Then continue with a jxg shxxxxe.

Maybe for me the most important is to keep a relaxed attitude and the patter smooth, because "the effect hasn't started yet".

Cheers,
Sébastien.
Message: Posted by: DomKabala (Jan 3, 2013 03:31PM)
The shortest distance between two points is SIMPLICITY...

Cardamagically,
Dom :) ;)
Message: Posted by: sroccaserra (Jan 3, 2013 03:54PM)
If you have The Royal Road to Card Magic, you might also have a look at chapter 15: it's about the hindu shuffle and other controls.

I just read it, and now I'm practicing the twelve-down riffle control, it looks like something that fits me.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jan 3, 2013 04:03PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 09:56, Montana76 wrote:
Hi!
What would be a effective way to get the selection to the top/bottom?
The pass would of course be the smoothest, but I'd like something "a bit" easier.
I now use a pinky break, transfer to thumb break and cut the deck twice, but I find it to be sloppy, not too elegant and unreliable (maybe because of my handling:)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreaciated.
[/quote]

Some of the world's top xcardicians don't even use a Pass of any kind. Barry's questions about external reality are really important. While you consider them, I'll shoot some suggestions in addition to those given.

Miller Variable Placement: By the Café's own Tony Miller (aka Doomo), this can be found in The Eark Nelson book Variations.

ODLA Control: Aldo Colombini in his book What's Up Deck

Larry Jennings Open Control in Best of Friends I written by Harry Lorayne

Push Together Control by Jose Fernandez in "red" Apocalypse

Midnight Shift by Steve Draun in The Collected Almanac

Side Steal: all over the place. I would however direct you to Paul Cummins' SUPERB DVD The Side Steal Declassified. Card College is another nice resource, but Paul Cummins has really done the work on this elegant control which was invented by Mate Leipzig

Panoramic Shift: Jerry Andrus

The Convincing Control by Ed Marlo: Great work on this in Daryl's Encyclopedia of Card Sleights

There are hundreds more, but, watch some of the greatest performing and keeping Barry's questions in mind, note that MANY magicians use double cuts, triple cuts, shuffles, etc. You also DON'T need sleight of hand to control a card. What if I told you that you could use a borrowed deck, have a card returned and there is no manipulation open OR concealed and yet you have total control over the card? And no you do not need to see the face of any card nor even hold a break. Does that sound cool? PM me and we'll talk.

Namaste,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: ArturoZ. (Jan 3, 2013 04:29PM)
Not sure what control this is called but it looks great:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQc-Bfxe1fk

Anyone know?
Message: Posted by: Uli Weigel (Jan 3, 2013 05:33PM)
[quote]
Panoramic Shift: Jerry Andrus
[/quote]

I second that. Especially if your double undercut control is "sloppy, not too elegant and unreliable". Excellent advice!

The Mari Huana Control is not bad either, right Vlad?
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 3, 2013 05:59PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 17:29, ArturoZ. wrote:
Not sure what control this is called but it looks great:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQc-Bfxe1fk

Anyone know?
[/quote]

Um, I think its called the fan friction card controll.....but I only guess that becuse its the title of the video and he says, "This is the fan friction card controll", but I could be wrong :)

Billy
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (Jan 3, 2013 06:01PM)
[quote]On 2013-01-03 14:19, Montana76 wrote:
I cut 1/2 of the upper pack under the lower pack and then the next 1/2 leaving the selection on top. What is this move called by the way?[/quote]This is not the correct way to do Double Cut Control. You cut 1/2 of the lower half to top and then cut remaining 1/2 to top. This is called 'Double Under Cut Control'.

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: ArturoZ. (Jan 3, 2013 06:15PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 18:59, Billy-one wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 17:29, ArturoZ. wrote:
Not sure what control this is called but it looks great:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQc-Bfxe1fk

Anyone know?
[/quote]

Um, I think its called the fan friction card controll.....but I only guess that becuse its the title of the video and he says, "This is the fan friction card controll", but I could be wrong :)

Billy
[/quote]

That's what I though but after reading the description on the video it looks like he came up with the idea but was wondering if the move has ever been performed by anyone else.
Message: Posted by: mehdielamri (Jan 3, 2013 06:27PM)
Hey Montana76 , I use this control I hope you will like it :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PB48qXg5W4
happy new year everyone .
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jan 3, 2013 06:44PM)
Thought I would add another that somehow I had forgotten. Must be the Mari Huana Uli. ;)

Anyhow, Montana, check out Lee Asher's Losing Control. It's available from Lybrary.com and from Lee Asher himself.

Namaste,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Jan 3, 2013 07:11PM)
Speaking of the panoramic shift, it reminds me of Simon Lovell's Non - Panoramic Shift. I always liked it.

To Answer the OP there are hundreds of ways to control cards. Start with the basic texts and experiment. There is no best. But there are dozens of excellent controls throughout the literature of the art. Studying, discovering, and practicing is a labour of love. Have a great time finding them , learning them, and discarding them. Only you will know when you find ones you like. Good luck building your small arsenal of card control weaponry.
Message: Posted by: msc455magic (Jan 3, 2013 07:30PM)
Perhaps a bit off-topic: The effect should always dictate the sleight you use. Also, never put sleights in front of effects because you will realize that at the end, you will know nothing more than 101 ways to control a card but not a single way to put it into the context of a trick.
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Jan 3, 2013 07:40PM)
Context, shmontext...

Just use your favorite method.
Message: Posted by: pepka (Jan 4, 2013 12:13AM)
Vlad stole my idea and listed several of his favorites. Many of them were mine too...(the man has good taste.) I'll add one more...Flip Flop Plop by Paul Harris.
Message: Posted by: jpleddington (Jan 4, 2013 12:17AM)
I agree with Steven. Use your favorite method. My favorite method to control a card to the top of the deck is to execute a diagonal palm shift and then do Vernon's hand-washing palm transfer while I toss the deck in the air. After I catch the deck in my left hand, I do a top palm replacement under the cover of transferring the deck to my right hand so that I can pick my nose with my left forefinger. Finger position is really important for this last bit. Don't poke yourself in the eye. And avoid knuckle flash.

Typically, to control the card to the bottom, I first control it to the top using my favorite method (above), and then I double undercut it to the bottom. I used to use a spread cull most of the time but it didn't fit my performing persona. Too contrived. I needed something simpler.

J
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 4, 2013 01:06AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-03 09:56, Montana76 wrote:
What would be a effective way to get the selection to the top/bottom?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.[/quote]

How long have you been studying Card Magic?
What is your skill level?
Who do you perform for?
What's the performing environment?
Do you have a table or are you working standing up?
Is this for a particular routine/trick or just a general control?

sey
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 4, 2013 01:07AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 01:17, jpleddington wrote:
I agree with Steven. Use your favorite method. My favorite method to control a card to the top of the deck is to execute a diagonal palm shift and then do Vernon's hand-washing palm transfer while I toss the deck in the air. After I catch the deck in my left hand, I do a top palm replacement under the cover of transferring the deck to my right hand so that I can pick my nose with my left forefinger. Finger position is really important for this last bit. Don't poke yourself in the eye. And avoid knuckle flash.

Typically, to control the card to the bottom, I first control it to the top using my favorite method (above), and then I double undercut it to the bottom. I used to use a spread cull most of the time but it didn't fit my performing persona. Too contrived. I needed something simpler. [/quote]
Either I am the only one who got the joke, or I must bow to your superior skill level. :wow:

sey
Message: Posted by: Tim Sutton (Jan 4, 2013 01:48AM)
In all discussions of card control it's important to avoid knuckle flash
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 4, 2013 03:18AM)
Montana the demo of top gun is on the way,,,,i also recommend the HOP this is a great move that is way umnder used.
both of these controls can be done standing, stitting or strolling
vinny
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 4, 2013 03:41AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 01:17, jpleddington wrote:
I agree with Steven. Use your favorite method. My favorite method to control a card to the top of the deck is to execute a diagonal palm shift and then do Vernon's hand-washing palm transfer while I toss the deck in the air. After I catch the deck in my left hand, I do a top palm replacement under the cover of transferring the deck to my right hand so that I can pick my nose with my left forefinger. Finger position is really important for this last bit. Don't poke yourself in the eye. And avoid knuckle flash.

Typically, to control the card to the bottom, I first control it to the top using my favorite method (above), and then I double undercut it to the bottom. I used to use a spread cull most of the time but it didn't fit my performing persona. Too contrived. I needed something simpler.

J
[/quote]

Hahahaha!! Sounds maaaarvelous!

Thank you soo much everybody for all the insights. I'm still not done looking up all the references and I have to say that this has been the most useful topic/thread for me here on the café so far.
Can't wait to get the demo Vinny. Really looking forward to it!!
Message: Posted by: thelearner (Jan 4, 2013 04:08PM)
I find a good and relatively easy control is to riffle down the deck and have a spectator say stop then separate the deck there. Have them put the card on the left hand deck and then do a hindu shuffle control to get the card to the top of the deck. It looks like they've put the card in the middle of the deck and then it's been randomly shuffled. It's a great move and it only took me a few hours to learn. Well worth a try I think. I think you can find the control in Royal Road to Card Magic.

Hope this helps.

Tim
Message: Posted by: Hideo Kato (Jan 4, 2013 07:51PM)
If you use Hindu Shuffle Control like above, I recommend to do Hindu Shuffle for the selection. You Hindu shuffle and spectator calls stop. You show the top card of the lower portion or spectator takes and replaces the top card. Then you continue Hindu Shuffle to bring the selection to the top. It is better than riffling the deck for the selection.

Hideo Kato
Message: Posted by: nathanmorris (Jan 9, 2013 11:10AM)
Do a standard cull, or gary jones top con control is very convincing and very easy!
Message: Posted by: murrari (Jan 10, 2013 07:32AM)
What is best depends on your ability to make the control invisible.
In most circumstances, I'd use the Spread Cull to control the card to the bottom and a side steal to control it to the top. That said however, alternatives that I employ include the pass (and its many variants), the dribble toss control, the convincing control, the Mahatma control etc etc...

What is key is that your audience should not be aware of any control nor suspicious of any 'moves' you make
Message: Posted by: Francois Lagrange (Jan 10, 2013 08:52AM)
A cull is very effective and it looks like no card replacement occurred. The pass would my second choice - depending on the circumstances.
Message: Posted by: DomKabala (Jan 10, 2013 11:12AM)
Maybe not the best, nonetheless... Side Steal.

Cardamagically,
Dom :) ;)