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Topic: What is the name of this DL?
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 4, 2013 06:16AM)
Hi!
I've been trying for many months to get my DL down and what I have ended up with is something inbetween several techniques.. I'd like to have the name (I am guessing this isn't new) and you guys' opinion on the move.

What I do:
- Thumbcount and then push the DL to the right
- Catch the DL as a "push of DL"

I would like to do the push of DL straight away but I find my technique to be to unreliable...
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 4, 2013 09:24AM)
I would call this "Not the best way to do it." :D

Learn a good "Strike DL." It's easy enough to do and do very well with some practice. It's great because you can do it so easily/immediately behind shuffling the cards without detection.

Hereya go, out of the mouth of babes...You should be able to fish forever now as to this. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjzhVGGsY6o

Oh, and welcome to the Café. :)
Message: Posted by: Bandaloop (Jan 4, 2013 12:35PM)
Yes, learn a strike/push-off DL. The thumb count is not necessary. My personal favorites are Martin Nash's Knock-Out DL and Ron Bauer's TTT.
Message: Posted by: MagicofDesperado (Jan 4, 2013 02:08PM)
Sounds like youre trying to employ ideas from the snap double of Larry Jennings, which I first encountered watching Daryl Martinez.


Dave
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 4, 2013 04:18PM)
Ugh,

I use to like the strike DL when I was a kid....now, not so much.

BIlly
Message: Posted by: PapaG (Jan 4, 2013 04:32PM)
Sounds like something I've seen Fred Kaps use.
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 4, 2013 09:13PM)
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_j3O0YmY88]Would this work for you?[/url]

It's Ron Bauer's T.T.T. (Two card Turnover Technique)-- and it fooled Charlie Miller.
It's printed in his lecture notes.

sey
Message: Posted by: Steff (Jan 7, 2013 04:32AM)
So far, 3 no-get-ready DL have been cited here.

Whatever name your DL is, it is a bit sad to see that you give it up for a get-ready one because you did not achieved enough consistency. (*)

What do you call "unreliable" ? what is your "miss rate" ?

Try and get some advice about your DL (here on the café or with magicians you can meet locally).

As far as I am concerned, I am working on the push off DL too. I am not yet satisfied with the "consistency" either. It is about 90% ok, but I know (hope ?) the 10% (**) are just a question of time. My success rate increased a lot when I discovered that my index, third and fourth finger were a bit too high. These fingers are far more important for a good push off than I expected at first.

/Stephane

(*) Yet, I can understand that one gets discourage after several month of practice without the expected result.
(**) These 10 percents range from "a bit too misaligned for me" to rare unwanted TL.
Message: Posted by: MuscleMagic (Jan 7, 2013 08:20AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 22:13, Steven Youell wrote:
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_j3O0YmY88]Would this work for you?[/url]

It's Ron Bauer's T.T.T. (Two card Turnover Technique)-- and it fooled Charlie Miller.
It's printed in his lecture notes.

sey
[/quote]thats great and not hard at all
Message: Posted by: Bandaloop (Jan 7, 2013 09:51AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 05:32, Steff wrote:
So far, 3 no-get-ready DL have been cited here.

Whatever name your DL is, it is a bit sad to see that you give it up for a get-ready one because you did not achieved enough consistency. (*)

What do you call "unreliable" ? what is your "miss rate" ?

Try and get some advice about your DL (here on the café or with magicians you can meet locally).

As far as I am concerned, I am working on the push off DL too. I am not yet satisfied with the "consistency" either. It is about 90% ok, but I know (hope ?) the 10% (**) are just a question of time. My success rate increased a lot when I discovered that my index, third and fourth finger were a bit too high. These fingers are far more important for a good push off than I expected at first.

/Stephane

(*) Yet, I can understand that one gets discourage after several month of practice without the expected result.
(**) These 10 percents range from "a bit too misaligned for me" to rare unwanted TL.
[/quote]

Position of the fingers when doing a push-off is important to make sure only two (or however many) cards are pushed over. It takes a little messing with to find the right spot -- everyone is different.

I'm really taking a warming to Ron's TTT. People seem to be obsessed with turning over a double book-leaf style (which can be very useful if you're doing something like Nash's Drop) but I'm starting to move away from that to TTT.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Jan 7, 2013 10:43AM)
There is a great story about Ed Marlo and a gorilla (at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago) that could do a GREAT "DL"!

Perhaps, if urged sufficiently, I might share the story, which I got from Jay Marshall, years ago.
Message: Posted by: Cohiba (Jan 7, 2013 05:58PM)
I've never liked the Strike DL. It doesn't look like how a layman would do it, and it doesn't look like how a professional magician would do it. It looks like how an amateur magician would do it.
Ron Bauer's DL looks very good as an option. The Vernon Pushover looks like how most normal people turn over a card. I'd recommend this with a pinky count get-ready. And to me, the pinky count is a pretty simple move. I never understand when I see people saying it's such a tough move.

Over time, I'd recommend learning several good DL's. It's a move you use ALL THE TIME. You're thumb count version described above is not far off from another one I use often. As long as the thumb count is done under cover (which can be done gesturing while talking), you're set up for some nice options.
Message: Posted by: Magic-Scott (Jan 7, 2013 07:59PM)
Dick, I'd like to hear the story about Marlo and the gorilla....
Message: Posted by: Lance Pierce (Jan 7, 2013 08:16PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 11:43, Dick Oslund wrote:
There is a great story about Ed Marlo and a gorilla (at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago) that could do a GREAT "DL"!

Perhaps, if urged sufficiently, I might share the story, which I got from Jay Marshall, years ago.
[/quote]

See, I heard it involved a [i]chimpanzee[/i] who could do [i]second deals[/i].
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 7, 2013 09:17PM)
Lance,

Did Darwin Ortiz put you up to this?

Jason
Message: Posted by: ArturoZ. (Jan 8, 2013 03:06AM)
Im not sure what the name is, I forgot where I learned this move but its a great DL once you master it. Ive been using this technique for about 5 years and other magicians are always complimenting and asking what move it is.
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 8, 2013 03:40AM)
MB217: Thank you, but I find the strike DL to be unreliable. Is this what you use? And thanks for the warm welcome by the way:)

MagicoofDesperado: Yeah, it's a version of the snap double without the snap

Billy-one: What do you use now?

Steven Youell: For me that is a perfect DL. I've seen this on Gregory Wilson's Double Take, but my miss-rate on this is far to great. This would be the DL I would choose if I could get the hang of it. Is this what you use? I would love to get rid of my thumb-count..

Steff: My miss-rate is far to great to use anything else than the riffle-thumbcount DL when I am performing for example a simple transpo. I (almost) always chicken out and do the biddle-grip thumbriffle count DL - which I hate to do..

Cohiba: A pinky count get ready would be nice, but I've read that you have to "train" your pinky for a year to be able to do this. But again, I've read that it's all about technique. Could you point me to a tutorial or something in writing that describes the technique?

Dick Oslund: Let us have the story!!

ArturoZ: Can you describe the technique?


To sum it up: It looks like the general opinion is that the push of dl is the one to go for - but I am always pushing of three or more cards. Can someone point me to a GOOD tutorial please? I would really appreciate it:):)
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 8, 2013 03:43AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 22:17, JasonEngland wrote:
Lance,

Did Darwin Ortiz put you up to this?

Jason
[/quote]

Hi Jason!
As long as I have you here I would LOVE to have your opinion on the subject!
- What DL do you (most often) use?
- Is the thumbcount a give-away?
- Should I go for a DL without a get-ready?

and if you don't mind..
- What is (in your opinion) the DL to learn?

Take care:):)
Message: Posted by: ArturoZ. (Jan 8, 2013 03:58AM)
Montana, I hold the deck with my right hand and count off 2 cards with my thumb and push to the right, this creates a small arch then with my right index finger I go under the arch and push off the two cards while at the same time flipping them over. When done up to speed it looks very convincing. I use this DL because it requires no break or "set up". As I said ive been using this DL for about 5 years now so I don't remember the name or where I learned it!
Message: Posted by: Dirtytrix (Jan 8, 2013 04:15AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 04:43, Montana76 wrote:

Hi Jason!
As long as I have you here I would LOVE to have your opinion on the subject!
- What DL do you (most often) use?
- Is the thumbcount a give-away?
- Should I go for a DL without a get-ready?

and if you don't mind..
- What is (in your opinion) the DL to learn?

Take care:):)
[/quote]

Here's my two pennies. Don't sweat about whether you need a 'get ready' before your DL, if you have a motive to do something and so long as it's perfectly natural then it's all fine. Not everyone will get a strike DL perfected without some serious practice time whilst some just pick it up straight away.

A really easy 'get ready' is simply spreading the cards as you explain that a particular card could be anywhere in the deck - the motivation is nothing more than you trying to show you're being honest and at the same time you're even offering a closer inspection which at worst is psycologically disguarded by your spectator as nothing more than a disingenuous gesture, but it's a great cover for the move which serves multiple purposes - it's allows for patter, a joke, the implied openess and the accompaning psycological effect, as well as facilitating your 'get ready'. Simply catch a break as you close the spread. You can blatantly and as slowly as you like push off however many cards at the lead end of your spread, you don't even need to spread the entire deck (even just the top half-dozen at the most) as it's nothing more than a natural gesture and part of your patter. I'll stop there considering we're in an open forum.

IMO the thumb count is easily detectable because if you're holding the deck in mechanics grip then it's happening right at front of the deck and under the nose of whoever feels like burning your hands. Only riffling up the back of the deck is marginally less revealing.

I suppose at the end of the day it's really down to whatever works and is easy for you, just so long as it's a completely natural action which can be justified in some way then it's going to go under the radar.

Phil
Message: Posted by: ArturoZ. (Jan 8, 2013 04:23AM)
I've never had a problem with my thumb count DL being detected, I'm my opinion everything happens too fast for anyone to notice anything. In fact, I think it is more noticible when you count off two cards to get a break. But you are right Phil in the end it just comes down to whatever works for each individual. For me, this DL works like a charm.
Message: Posted by: Dirtytrix (Jan 8, 2013 04:55AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 05:23, ArturoZ. wrote:
I've never had a problem with my thumb count DL being detected, I'm my opinion everything happens too fast for anyone to notice anything. In fact, I think it is more noticible when you count off two cards to get a break. But you are right Phil in the end it just comes down to whatever works for each individual. For me, this DL works like a charm.
[/quote]

Agreed, with speed it's undetectable, but I'm taking into consideration that someone learning their first DL might not be so dextrous, plus if you've got to execute a thumb count as a get ready quickly then that might mean that someone learning might feel under a little more pressure. The difference between spreading and the thumb count is that you can do the spread really slowly and take your time and justify the deliberate action, within reason. that's not to say that it doesn't also require plenty of practice in order to get it done in a timely fashion - I might be over-egging the pudding a little by implying you can take all day, because of course you can't. ;-)

Plus, it's nice for a relative novice to get their breaks well ahead of time, to settle and to milk the moment before executing the turn over, and I think that since the break created by a thumb count is at the front of the deck then it's not a position you'd be happy maintaining for an extended period of time. A break at the back is more conventional and does offer a bit more utility when transitioning to/from other controls.
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 8, 2013 05:52AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 05:23, ArturoZ. wrote:
I've never had a problem with my thumb count DL being detected, I'm my opinion everything happens too fast for anyone to notice anything. In fact, I think it is more noticible when you count off two cards to get a break. But you are right Phil in the end it just comes down to whatever works for each individual. For me, this DL works like a charm.
[/quote]

How quick is your thumb count and what advice would you give me to improve my speed? (of course practice practice practice.. but maybe something else?)
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 8, 2013 05:54AM)
[quote]
Plus, it's nice for a relative novice to get their breaks well ahead of time, to settle and to milk the moment before executing the turn over, and I think that since the break created by a thumb count is at the front of the deck then it's not a position you'd be happy maintaining for an extended period of time. A break at the back is more conventional and does offer a bit more utility when transitioning to/from other controls.
[/quote]

That's a good point.. Transitioning between different breaks. That's maybe why you need more than one DL down.. Arghh! I'm going to be 100 years old before I'm "good enough"! :)
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 8, 2013 06:23AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 04:58, ArturoZ. wrote:
Montana, I hold the deck with my right hand and count off 2 cards with my thumb and push to the right, this creates a small arch then with my right index finger I go under the arch and push off the two cards while at the same time flipping them over. When done up to speed it looks very convincing. I use this DL because it requires no break or "set up". As I said ive been using this DL for about 5 years now so I don't remember the name or where I learned it!
[/quote]

This is infact excactly what I am doing now!
But what do you mean by pushing off? I simply lift them upp. Do you sort of slide them to your right with your right index as guide? And what way do you flip them?
Message: Posted by: TerryLam (Jan 8, 2013 06:50AM)
The following handling is my own study of DL, feel free to comment.

Both moves need to use a get ready break, the break should be attained according to the context of the routine.

There are two ways to "slide" the card to the right.
One is the vernon fake push off. It is natural looking and it can be followed by several different turnover to suit certain situation. Personally, I will use simple turnover, Ascanio weightless double or Gordon turnover after doing the vernon pushoff. If you can do different types of turnover, it means you don't have to use the "same move" twice in a single trick thus adding more deception to your magic.

The other one is use your right hand (thumb on top, first and middle finger below the card)to move the card to the right (the advantage of this is, the card can move more distance than a vernon push off)and use your left thumb to "touch" the card for half a second before turnover the card on to the deck. This is good to use when the card is face up, it gives the spectator more time to put the "card impression" into their mind before turn it over, thus, it gives the impression that the card can be freely moved without sticking to the deck and there is nothing to hide.
(It addresses the problem of strike type of DL, because strike type DL makes the card looks like it has to stick to the deck and cannot be causally moved like when you got just a single card at the top of the deck.)
Message: Posted by: ArturoZ. (Jan 8, 2013 11:05AM)
Montana, I meant to say "push up". I push the cards UP with my index once I have the arch. For me the thumb count is pretty fast but because I've put in the work. However, some advice I can give you, which helped me a lot when I was first learning it, is to buy yourself some time, talk to them while your thumb counting the cards. Do the thumb count when youre explaining something to them not when you're about to use the DL. After a while your thumb count will get faster and faster and eventually it will all flow very nicely. Well worth the practice. Looks deceptive and as I said I get compliments from magicians all the time.

Hope this helps,
Art
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 8, 2013 11:13AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 04:40, Montana76 wrote:
Steven Youell: For me that is a perfect DL. I've seen this on Gregory Wilson's Double Take, but my miss-rate on this is far to great. This would be the DL I would choose if I could get the hang of it. Is this what you use? I would love to get rid of my thumb-count.. [/quote]
It wasn't on Wilson's DVD-- I'm the only person Ron's allowed to teach it. PM me and we'll set something up!

sey
Message: Posted by: ArturoZ. (Jan 8, 2013 12:01PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 05:55, Dirtytrix wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 05:23, ArturoZ. wrote:
I've never had a problem with my thumb count DL being detected, I'm my opinion everything happens too fast for anyone to notice anything. In fact, I think it is more noticible when you count off two cards to get a break. But you are right Phil in the end it just comes down to whatever works for each individual. For me, this DL works like a charm.
[/quote]

Agreed, with speed it's undetectable, but I'm taking into consideration that someone learning their first DL might not be so dextrous, plus if you've got to execute a thumb count as a get ready quickly then that might mean that someone learning might feel under a little more pressure. The difference between spreading and the thumb count is that you can do the spread really slowly and take your time and justify the deliberate action, within reason. that's not to say that it doesn't also require plenty of practice in order to get it done in a timely fashion - I might be over-egging the pudding a little by implying you can take all day, because of course you can't. ;-)

Plus, it's nice for a relative novice to get their breaks well ahead of time, to settle and to milk the moment before executing the turn over, and I think that since the break created by a thumb count is at the front of the deck then it's not a position you'd be happy maintaining for an extended period of time. A break at the back is more conventional and does offer a bit more utility when transitioning to/from other controls.
[/quote]

Youre right about having the thumb count break for a long period of time. I believe the thumb count DL is meant for everything to be done up to speed and not be siting there with the thumb break. What I do is I "milk the momet" before, then when I'm ready for it I time it so that the break isn't held for too long. It seems like a whole lot to do when you're writing it down but it really isn't.
Message: Posted by: Akal Singh (Jan 8, 2013 02:34PM)
Gorillas, chimpanzees, and Cards... Oh my!!

On the strike double (which Vernon, Lepzeig, and Dr. Dailey hated) and potential alternatives: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=81435&forum=2

While I typically use Bro. John Hamman's no-get-ready, I was pretty impressed by this when I saw Josh Jay do it: http://www.youtube.com
/watch?v=Jko1Z3VvGOU

But, Michael Ammar quotes Paul Daniels on the Vernon Revelations DVDs as saying that "the best" DL does not exist: the one you should use depends on the context of the routine.

Lastly, during a Lecture at Magic Inc a couple years ago, John Bannon said that the DL is one of the hardest sleights (or THE hardest... I don't remember) to execute undetected. So, you're in good company, Mr. Montana.
Message: Posted by: Joe Momma (Jan 8, 2013 02:37PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-04 22:13, Steven Youell wrote:
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_j3O0YmY88]Would this work for you?[/url]

It's Ron Bauer's T.T.T. (Two card Turnover Technique)-- and it fooled Charlie Miller.
It's printed in his lecture notes.

sey
[/quote]

Very nice!
Message: Posted by: Steven Conner (Jan 8, 2013 03:02PM)
I replaced my DL with a second deal years ago. It's just so much cleaner.