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Topic: AMBITION /by the godfather
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 5, 2013 01:15PM)
This is a ambitious card routine with out the use of a double or tripple lift
using all of my controls except for the Hop ...
http://youtu.be/DPdPJukFkHY
Message: Posted by: seandixie (Jan 5, 2013 03:14PM)
Great stuff as ever Vinny
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 5, 2013 04:28PM)
Thank you if you would like the handling send me a pm with your e mail address
vinny
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 5, 2013 04:44PM)
It was very good, in concept, however many moves looked like a bluff move that would invoke unwanted "hey, you just did something"! comments. It reminded me of Tommy Wonders ambitious card routine where he faux does a move, then shows that nothing yet has happened....

Billy
Message: Posted by: WazMeister (Jan 5, 2013 05:19PM)
Love the card handling. Can you point me in the direction of what books can show me some of them sleights. Don't want to spoil anything here, but one move I absolutely loved!

Great work.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 5, 2013 06:13PM)
Those interested can pm me with e mail address and I will send you the moves
my stuff is a little un orthodox but remember I am doing this for magicians here , layman
vinny
Message: Posted by: PapaG (Jan 5, 2013 06:54PM)
Nice work.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 5, 2013 08:09PM)
Just a beautifully bold series of moves that makes this classic effect POP again and again. Great job, Godfather. :) Ain't nobody doing this stuff any better than you, IMHO.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 5, 2013 08:22PM)
Thank you Mb ill send you the handling
vinny
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Jan 5, 2013 11:56PM)
Vinny, as usual you just kill me. This is GREAT stuff. I'd love to get the handlings. Not only do you have great chops, but you're so generous to share this with the rest of us.

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 6, 2013 12:11AM)
Dennis the handling is on the way
vinny
Message: Posted by: Harald (Jan 6, 2013 02:39AM)
Great job Vinny. Love your stuff. Would you also send me the handling? Thankx a lot.

Harald
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Jan 6, 2013 11:37AM)
The Godfather came through very quickly and I have the video he made showing the handlings of each of these moves. If you do the Ambitious Card and you don't take Vinny up on his offer to send you this, you're missing some wonderful moves.

I'll repeat what I said above: Vinny has GREAT chops and is amazingly generous to share all of this with us.

Denny
Message: Posted by: JH5magic (Jan 6, 2013 11:44AM)
Vinsmagic - I am a relatively new poster, but would like to add to the accolades. A very nice variety of controls! Loved it!
Message: Posted by: jayres (Jan 6, 2013 12:12PM)
Great work Vinny, PM on the way.
Jay
Message: Posted by: MuscleMagic (Jan 6, 2013 02:25PM)
Very nice, especially good for those who seen the ambitious trick and are now assuming it must be a double, this will make em rack their brain as its obvious no double
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 6, 2013 03:09PM)
Thanks guys for all the positive input. my latest dvd will be up on my sight in next couple 0f weeks with many new slighs and effects and even some new ideas on some of the classics
the DVD is called the Godfather Tips His Hand
vinny
Message: Posted by: Larry Barnowsky (Jan 6, 2013 03:25PM)
Excellent work. Thanks Vin.

Larry
Message: Posted by: bozo (Jan 6, 2013 08:54PM)
I've always held that the ambitious card is a classic due to the clarity of effect and a seeming lack of handling.
What was that?
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Jan 6, 2013 09:09PM)
Bozo,
Nice! 47 posts in, and you decide that this is the place to mark your territory?

Show us what you have to contribute to this thread and we will show you a level of respect commensurate with your contribution (unlike the level of disrespect that you have shown to Vinny).

Vinny,
Thanks for sending me your handling. I look forward to the new DVD.
Message: Posted by: bozo (Jan 6, 2013 09:26PM)
Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered,
and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.
Message: Posted by: Mule Henderson (Jan 6, 2013 09:45PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-06 22:26, bozo wrote:
Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered,
and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.
[/quote]

How dare you have a minority opinion! Shame on you! ;)
Message: Posted by: Steven Youell (Jan 6, 2013 09:46PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-06 22:26, bozo wrote:
Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered, and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.[/quote]
I don't mean any harm here, but it [i]is[/i] a bit difficult to take a critique from Bozo seriously... :lol:

sey
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 6, 2013 09:53PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-06 22:26, bozo wrote:
Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered,
and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.

[/quote]

I can not disagree with this comment. I find the moves to be cool for magicians, but any and every single one of my spectators would get the, "oh, he just did something" face during that routine. Again, perhaps in a diffrent context the moves might pass, but in my eyes they looked more like puzzles then clean sleight of hand moves.

BIlly

p.s. no disrespect becuse I have seen other videos from the OP that are amazing.
Message: Posted by: ilmungo (Jan 7, 2013 12:52AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-06 22:26, bozo wrote:
Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine. They are too fast, too covered,
and there is (again, to me at least) more ambiguity than clarity of effect.
[/quote]

Thank you for pointing out that the emperor's new clothes appear to be missing altogether... I'm sure you'll be duly scolded for your troubles. *Sigh*
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Jan 7, 2013 01:01AM)
I love it! Great work as always Vinny! PM Sent!

Thank you for being so generous to the community!
Message: Posted by: Uli Weigel (Jan 7, 2013 02:27AM)
I'm just a mere amateur, when it comes to card magic. I'd like to hear from the experts here, who complimented Vinnie on his "great work", "excellent work" etc, what they mean. The technique, the structure of the routine, the handling details? I don't doubt your expertise and I really couldn't do any of Vinnies moves myself, even if I tried, but I'd love it, if you guys could be a bit more elaborate, so I can follow you reasoning. Thank you!
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 7, 2013 09:44AM)
Uli,

I'm another amateur. I probably don't even rise to the mere status, to which you attest.

I know we have all had a point where we become fascinated with moves; good, bad, twitchy or smooth. We like moves, moves and more moves.

Whether or not Vinny's style of magic has laudable value in a performance venue is debatable. Vinny shows us a string of moves draped around the absence of a plot called, The Ambitious Card. I suspect using moves where your hands change speed abruptly over and over again is a big a tell as the world's worst double lift. I think laymen who saw Vinny perform this effect would be impressed with his skill at switching cards. Vinny's whole persona, as he relates it, is "In your face magic". Not my cup of tea. It certainly doesn't have to be yours Uli. I suspect it isn't, anyway.

I, personally, don't choose to emulate Vinny's style or the moves he creates. If a cardman finds one or two of Vinny's moves adaptable to his or her own style, then good magic could come of it. Vinny is always willing to share his stuff and that alone makes him of value to those who follow him.

As for me, I'll march to the beat of a different drummer. Vinny and his crew hear a different song.

KG
Message: Posted by: Joe Momma (Jan 7, 2013 10:23AM)
You know occasionally Vernon would do a fake move as means of a false explanation of what he was doing. Something INTENDED for the audience to say "Hang on a sec, you just did something really fishy then"?

I think, in fact, he does such a fake in his ACR.

To me, this routine of Vinny's is that taken to the nth degree.

EVERY single move looks like he is doing something. Maybe that is what he was going for. He wanted the audience to say "hang on" at each and every phase of the routine? Then he would do the whole thing again with proper moves that are natural and would fool people?

Maybe the naysayers hadn't thought of that...
Message: Posted by: Bandaloop (Jan 7, 2013 10:34AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 11:23, Joe Momma wrote:
You know occasionally Vernon would do a fake move as means of a false explanation of what he was doing. Something INTENDED for the audience to say "Hang on a sec, you just did something really fishy then"?

I think, in fact, he does such a fake in his ACR.

To me, this routine of Vinny's is that taken to the nth degree.

EVERY single move looks like he is doing something. Maybe that is what he was going for. He wanted the audience to say "hang on" at each and every phase of the routine? Then he would do the whole thing again with proper moves that are natural and would fool people?

Maybe the naysayers hadn't thought of that...
[/quote]

Vernon did talk a bit about using multiple fakes during his ACR to purposely throw people off balance. He wanted it to look like he made a move when he didn't.

As long as there's a reason behind it, there's nothing wrong with movements that throw suspicion in the minds of the audience. <-- The first half of that sentence is the most important part.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 7, 2013 10:45AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 11:23, Joe Momma wrote:

Maybe the naysayers hadn't thought of that...
[/quote]

Why would it make a difference to their analysis? Maybe you didn't think of that...
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jan 7, 2013 10:47AM)
I don't believe that Vinny expects anyone to think that the things he offers for free is his best stuff. My impression has always been that he experiments, puts something together, puts it out on the www, and if anyone is interested in learning more, he gives it to them, gratis. No harm in that. Certainly nothing to get worked up over, as has happened on similar topics.
Message: Posted by: Joe Momma (Jan 7, 2013 10:50AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 11:45, tomsk192 wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 11:23, Joe Momma wrote:

Maybe the naysayers hadn't thought of that...
[/quote]

Why would it make a difference to their analysis? Maybe you didn't think of that...
[/quote]

Well people seem to be complaining that the moves Vinny uses are unnatural and make it blindingly obvious he did "something". My assumption (albeit an incorrect one) is that Vinny has deliberately constructed the routine like that in order to do a second routine later on which cancels out all the obvious moves done in the first.

And possibly the people saying it is horrible, movey, pointless and ugly hadn't thought he INTENDED it to be like that.

Hope that clarifies things.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 7, 2013 11:29AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 10:44, kentfgunn wrote:
Uli,

I'm another amateur. I probably don't even rise to the mere status, to which you attest.

I know we have all had a point where we become fascinated with moves; good, bad, twitchy or smooth. We like moves, moves and more moves.

Whether or not Vinny's style of magic has laudable value in a performance venue is debatable. Vinny shows us a string of moves draped around the absence of a plot called, The Ambitious Card. I suspect using moves where your hands change speed abruptly over and over again is a big a tell as the world's worst double lift. I think laymen who saw Vinny perform this effect would be impressed with his skill at switching cards. Vinny's whole persona, as he relates it, is "In your face magic". Not my cup of tea. It certainly doesn't have to be yours Uli. I suspect it isn't, anyway.

I, personally, don't choose to emulate Vinny's style or the moves he creates. If a cardman finds one or two of Vinny's moves adaptable to his or her own style, then good magic could come of it. Vinny is always willing to share his stuff and that alone makes him of value to those who follow him.

As for me, I'll march to the beat of a different drummer. Vinny and his crew hear a different song.

KG
[/quote]

I don't know, Joe Momma, Mule Henderson, Bozo, that's quite a chorus line, Gunny aka...C'mon man! :D To each his own my friend as to what you like and what you don't. Eat of it what you will or not. I'm reading some of these posts as to how an ACR should be done, motivation, yada, yada, yada and yet I've seen people negatively criticize the work of Janathan Kamm just the same way as to this & that and what they don't like about whatever. And ain't too many of any of you doing an Ambitious Card Routine anywhere as good as Kamm. If you are, then show it as there's no need to argue about this...just show your hand and let us see for ourselves.

Now it's one thing to have an opinion, I mean, we all got them but the negative swipes from some of these folks, the rudeness (in some cases admitted) is not necessary. Now Gunny, you don't particularly like Vinny's style as to things but I do, I think he's really good, not just at cards but at all closeup magic IMHO. Most would peter-out, 5-10 miles back in comparison to Vinny's creativity and cleverness in magic. And let's not even mention his more than charitable nature, which is what this was all about mostly. Whether folks like every move or just one of them, it's hard as heck for me to believe that anyone can look at this and not see something worth investigating more closely for possible usage and or better understanding of how it could be used as per your own liking.

Funny, like I said, I see many more of these folks argue with Jonathan Kamm as to card magic as well and you'd be lucky if you ever get to be that good, and he might not even be considered a top guy in card magic but truth be told, he's better than any of you guys sleeping :D whether you admit it here or not, amateur or supposed pro -- All comers, you're in for a real gunfight and most will be slayed easily, wouldn't you say Gunny? :) So criticism will fly, just the nature of any such discernments. Heck, believe it or not, people criticize me. :D But any spiteful parts of this, any such callousness offered is unnecessarily disrespectful, especially to a guy here simply offering a few slices of bread as to an old card trick. I'm just sayin' and I'm an amateur too, even worse perhaps...just a humble hobbyist. :D

Hey Gunny, how did your Magic-Fest go out there? I hope it went well for you. :)
Message: Posted by: Harald (Jan 7, 2013 11:55AM)
Thank you Vinny for sending me the handling. You are a great magician and a great fellow magician. From you we not only learn magic, we can learn much more from you: share knowledge with us who are still learning.
Great work in every way.
Thanks again
Harald
Message: Posted by: jskalon (Jan 7, 2013 12:24PM)
Amen MB!

Like you say, everyone has an opinion. Great! Not everyone likes the same thing. Great. Although I always wonder when I read some of these negative posts - how many of these guys actually perform. I don't even mean professionally. There are a lot of armchair quarterbacks in the world (not only in magic).
I am thankful for guys like you, Vinny, and several others here on the Café. You pour your life into magic and FREELY share it. Now if someone here doesn't like something - fine. If you say that in a post - fine. The methods and moves they do may not suit you. No need to trash it though.

Just sayin'.
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 7, 2013 12:24PM)
Marion,

Where'd the J-Kamm reference come from? I don't think I've ever slammmed Kamm. I consider him an on-line pal. He does solid journeyman-level magic. He's a working pro. Vinny's an enthusiastic amateur with a strong on-line following. Two different levels of ability and two different directions. I don't know everyone in this thread. Jonathan being better than everyone in their sleep . . . nah.

I don't dislike Vinny's style. It's all his. I acknowledge freely Vinny has a huge repertoire of things he comes up with, it's amazing the quantity of stuff he has. It simply isn't to every single magician's taste. Parading his work as ground-breaking or top-flight does a great disservice to those looking to improve. I don't think his work is something to emulate. Naturalness and complete, well-thought out presentations that have been honed worked on for years are what beginners and tyros like me need to move up. A few moves done in a sequence with no patter do not a quality card trick make.

For those looking to improve their magic, if it isn't written down in a magazine or a book, be suspicious. It takes thought and time far beyond that required to shoot a DVD to create a meaningful book of magic effects. If no one has bothered to assimilate a magician's work into text . . . there's a reason.

Those that can actually read and write well enough to produce a book or good magazine article won't bother with slapped together, quickly conceived work. They can't be bothered. I know some magicians have self-published some awful, awful magic books. I won't name names. I'm irritating enough magicians, here in this thread.

Instead look to publishers like Kaufman and H&R, writers like Hobbs, Ortiz, Hatch and Giobbi for the real work. You simply won't find it in slapdash videos on the magic Café. If you really want to progress, follow those who are progressing our art.

KG
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 7, 2013 12:42PM)
Can I get an Amen!
Message: Posted by: jskalon (Jan 7, 2013 12:44PM)
I did already
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 7, 2013 01:12PM)
Wow, you preempted Kent's post! ;)
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 7, 2013 01:47PM)
Marion,

Where'd the J-Kamm reference come from? I don't think I've ever slammmed Kamm. I consider him an on-line pal. He does solid journeyman-level magic. He's a working pro. Vinny's an enthusiastic amateur with a strong on-line following. Two different levels of ability and two different directions. I don't know everyone in this thread. Jonathan being better than everyone in their sleep . . . nah.

Gunny, my man… :)
I just mentioned JK because I’ve seen him demolished in some like posts where he was just showing something. I didn’t say YOU slammed him, go back and check that. Now I do believe he is better than most here as I said, not everyone but enough of everyone here to cut him some deserved space. He’s real good, solid as you agree. I was more spefically saying that he was better than everyone here in this string, in his sleep. And like I said, no need to argue about that, just step up and show your hand.  More seriously though, I just mentioned Kamm as an aside, a relatable comparison, if you will.

I don't dislike Vinny's style. It's all his. I acknowledge freely Vinny has a huge repertoire of things he comes up with, it's amazing the quantity of stuff he has. It simply isn't to every single magician's taste. Parading his work as ground-breaking or top-flight does a great disservice to those looking to improve. I don't think his work is something to emulate. Naturalness and complete, well-thought out presentations that have been honed worked on for years are what beginners and tyros like me need to move up. A few moves done in a sequence with no patter do not a quality card trick make.

I see that as any such disservice, especially from a man trying to lend a hand here. I consider Vinny a mentor, many do, you don’t and that’s find but his magic is as emulatable as anyone elses. Sure there are levels to things but truth be told here, Vinny is better than most all things considered as to the magic. Maybe he ain’t read all the books and doesn’t take everything Dai Vernon said as law, but so what, I haven’t either. And all beginners like you, as you say, need more than just what you think to be growthful examples of magic. And I think you’re wrong about what makes a quality card trick, or any trick…What makes a trick quality is how it is accepted. I’m sure Vinny does this set for laymen and they are blown away. Heck if he does it for some magicians, I still say a lot of them get blown away. And perhaps the more intellectual types might tear it apart, so because of that, the entire set is worthless??? C’mon, Gunny. :D Vinny’s not here trying to win a contest or impress Scarne or even the Buck Twins, he’s just offering up a few interesting moves he’s adapted to DL-less presentation of the ACR, and that to anyone that’s interested in knowing a bit more than they do in this stuff, a different way of skinning a cat.

For those looking to improve their magic, if it isn't written down in a magazine or a book, be suspicious. It takes thought and time far beyond that required to shoot a DVD to create a meaningful book of magic effects. If no one has bothered to assimilate a magician's work into text . . . there's a reason.

I would say this is nice thinking, but I’m sure there are a lot of great things, cards and otherwise, not written down in a book. Now, I typically write down every effect I put out but there are lot of people nowadays that don’t and their work is good too. I write manuscripts to everything and have been slammed at times but I think that’s because I’m one of them cats that kiss rings much. :D Hey, maybe that’s why a lot of people can’t catch on to the brilliant Sylvester Pitch, because it’s not written down, just on VHS and DVD. :)

Those that can actually read and write well enough to produce a book or good magazine article won't bother with slapped together, quickly conceived work. They can't be bothered. I know some magicians have self-published some awful, awful magic books. I won't name names. I'm irritating enough magicians, here in this thread.

Well, you never irritate me because I always appreciate what you have to say, as it is always straight-on and from the gut of a true soldier, IMHO. Now, I don’t always agree with you, as a matter of fact take colorful exception a lot of the times but always with respect. Now, I must say here, that I read and write well enough to have done all that stuff you mention as more proper ID here, and I still think a lot of that stuff not written down is some great stuff. I do bother myself with it and always find it worth considering. It might sometimes be a bit unpolished, brittle, a bit tangy, even disconnected but I see these sort of things as perhaps parts of greater thoughts trying to show themselves better. Guess it depends on the eye doing the looking as well, some see diamonds, some see merely glass.

Instead look to publishers like Kaufman and H&R, writers like Hobbs, Ortiz, Hatch and Giobbi for the real work. You simply won't find it in slapdash videos on the magic Café. If you really want to progress, follow those who are progressing our art.

Fair enough, I believe in those guys too, and some of those “slapdash” videos ain’t all that bad and you can definitely learn a thing or two from them as well. I know because I've made a few myself. :D When I was kid growing up in the dangerously, mean Harlem streets of NYC, we used to run through the backyards and rustle through the junk back there for bike parts we might be able to fashion into a workable bike. Whenever we happened upon a good enough piece of this & that toward making something we could ride a bit, we used to call it “Good Garbage.” ;) I’m just sayin’. :)

Good talk, my friend...And don't forget, the beers and sausage are on me whenever you're in NYC. :)

KG

-Mb
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 7, 2013 03:05PM)
Marion,

Glad we're clear on Kamm, he didn't deserve having his name dragged into this. We'll pick on him another day.

It might indeed be ground-breaking to some, even top-flite to some and I don’t see that as any such disservice, especially from a man trying to lend a hand here. I consider Vinny a mentor, many do, you don’t and that’s find but his magic is as emulatable as anyone elses. Sure there are levels to things but truth be told here, Vinny is better than most all things considered as to the magic.

Marion . . . just because someone offers free stuff, it doesn't mean it's of any value. Free doesn't always mean good. We make friendships in and out of magic. I know try to stand by my pals. Vinny and I have hung out in the real world, talked on the phone and I consider him a friend. None of this is about bashing Vinny. I just don't think any magician worth a bucket of warm spit can consider that ambitious routine top-flight. It ain't. It's not the best thing Vinny's done, it's not the worst. It's not top-flight.

As for not having read very many magic books; It's a sure sign that one will re-invent old stuff. That can't be helped. Not having read Vernon, Marlo, Tamariz, Ascanio, Ortiz, Kaufman and still professing to be a creator of great stuff means you're probably self-deluded, at best. (Forgot all the stuff Lorayne wrote . . . sorry Harry, wherever you are) There is such a wealth of great magic hiding in print it bothers me I haven't read every book on my shelves. Dismissing the work of others, or renaming out of ignorance definitely does the community a great disservice. I'd bring up the "Crimp Change" but that's been done by far greater scholars than me. I know you refer to it properly now, anyway.

Vinny shares the stuff he shares. He has fans and pals. I get that. I simply think other voices, who think the path to magic goodness lies in the work of other people, should be heard. Vinny is one contributor to the huge puddle of sticky goodness that is magic. You and I differ into where his work should go in the puddle. You put it on top. I put it lower.

Sausage is good, don't drink booze.

Magic convention rocked! Ortiz lectured, it was like Vinny's stuff . . . no . . . it was awesome!

Kent
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 7, 2013 03:35PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 12:29, Mb217 wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 10:44, kentfgunn wrote:
Uli,

I'm another amateur. I probably don't even rise to the mere status, to which you attest.

I know we have all had a point where we become fascinated with moves; good, bad, twitchy or smooth. We like moves, moves and more moves.

Whether or not Vinny's style of magic has laudable value in a performance venue is debatable. Vinny shows us a string of moves draped around the absence of a plot called, The Ambitious Card. I suspect using moves where your hands change speed abruptly over and over again is a big a tell as the world's worst double lift. I think laymen who saw Vinny perform this effect would be impressed with his skill at switching cards. Vinny's whole persona, as he relates it, is "In your face magic". Not my cup of tea. It certainly doesn't have to be yours Uli. I suspect it isn't, anyway.

I, personally, don't choose to emulate Vinny's style or the moves he creates. If a cardman finds one or two of Vinny's moves adaptable to his or her own style, then good magic could come of it. Vinny is always willing to share his stuff and that alone makes him of value to those who follow him.

As for me, I'll march to the beat of a different drummer. Vinny and his crew hear a different song.

KG
[/quote]

I don't know, Joe Momma, Mule Henderson, Bozo, that's quite a chorus line, Gunny aka...C'mon man! :D To each his own my friend as to what you like and what you don't. Eat of it what you will or not. I'm reading some of these posts as to how an ACR should be done, motivation, yada, yada, yada and yet I've seen people negatively criticize the work of Janathan Kamm just the same way as to this & that and what they don't like about whatever. And ain't too many of any of you doing an Ambitious Card Routine anywhere as good as Kamm. If you are, then show it as there's no need to argue about this...just show your hand and let us see for ourselves.

Now it's one thing to have an opinion, I mean, we all got them but the negative swipes from some of these folks, the rudeness (in some cases admitted) is not necessary. Now Gunny, you don't particularly like Vinny's style as to things but I do, I think he's really good, not just at cards but at all closeup magic IMHO. Most would peter-out, 5-10 miles back in comparison to Vinny's creativity and cleverness in magic. And let's not even mention his more than charitable nature, which is what this was all about mostly. Whether folks like every move or just one of them, it's hard as heck for me to believe that anyone can look at this and not see something worth investigating more closely for possible usage and or better understanding of how it could be used as per your own liking.

Funny, like I said, I see many more of these folks argue with Jonathan Kamm as to card magic as well and you'd be lucky if you ever get to be that good, and he might not even be considered a top guy in card magic but truth be told, he's better than any of you guys sleeping :D whether you admit it here or not, amateur or supposed pro -- All comers, you're in for a real gunfight and most will be slayed easily, wouldn't you say Gunny? :) So criticism will fly, just the nature of any such discernments. Heck, believe it or not, people criticize me. :D But any spiteful parts of this, any such callousness offered is unnecessarily disrespectful, especially to a guy here simply offering a few slices of bread as to an old card trick. I'm just sayin' and I'm an amateur too, even worse perhaps...just a humble hobbyist. :D

Hey Gunny, how did your Magic-Fest go out there? I hope it went well for you. :)
[/quote]

Who is Jonathan Kamm?

Billy
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 7, 2013 03:44PM)
Billy,

He's a restaurant worker from around Chicago. He works three or four different restaurants every week. Solid performer. I suspect he's been the object of derision on here before. I missed that thread. I've seen him work. He's entertaining and proficient at sleight-of-hand.

I understand Vinny works at a restaurant as well. I've only hung out with him once at a convention. He did some of his stuff. A good time was had by all. Two different levels of expertise/interest.
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 7, 2013 04:04PM)
I think that, if we are looking to rank ability, working a restaurants would not be in my list of qualifications....magic is something special and not many people doing it...getting into a restaurant is more about being able to talk to managers versus being a top flight magician...., but it (working) should give people flight time to get better...just not always the case. I don't belive that Vinny is using those move is a working enviorment, unless he is playing a role of a trickster and doesn't want to fool anyone or create a moment of aww.

BIlly
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 7, 2013 04:25PM)
Yeah, Kamm is better than everyone in this string and Vinny is better than most. :D

Hey Gunny, thanks for the response. Like you, I'm not here for consensus, just to give my 2 cents, which I happen to think is worth at least a buck. :D Interestingly, I've read a lot of those guys and enjoy them. Robin Hood wasn't part of the royalty or the nobles, and I respect that for some reason. And funny, my great grandfather never learned how to read and was still one of the smartest men I've ever known. Go figure. :)

And for the sake of argument, I do believe in "levels" as to things and mention that to the coin guys all the time. I don't think they like it as when I mention it, I've refered to people like Mickey Silver, who don't have a DVD, book, etc., to speak of but is one bad Mofo, and all those guys with all those books and everything else know it well enough, truth be told. And I know, because I just told it...yet again. ;) And I'm not as good as Kamm in cards or Vinny with coins, just good enough though...Wanna try me? :D

Oh, and my proper reference to the Crimp Change is still the "Crimp Change," for what it's worth. :) What I did with it, "I" did with it, not any of those other guys, though all due respect is given them and the greater scholars as to my branches on this tree. ;)
http://www.magicplace.com/product/crimp-change-redux

And hey Gunny, it's a heckuva time to stop drinking booze (beer, really???) :D but I'm giving it up, been meaning to for a long time...Thanks for the reminder. :) How about some good black cherry soda and some prime rib Hoagies...I know a great place. :)
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 7, 2013 04:39PM)
I have never seen/heard of Kamm, just as he prob has never heard or seen me.....but I doubt this statement that he is better then everyone in this string, maybe a link to a video?

Billy
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 7, 2013 04:48PM)
Mb,

Ok, nevermind, I found some of his videos on Youtube....he is good. Better then others on this string *myself included* nah.

Billy
Message: Posted by: ashah12 (Jan 7, 2013 04:50PM)
Vinny,

This is fantastic material! I always look forward to your contributions to our beautiful world of magic that we all share together. I've sent you a PM!

Sincerely,

Arsh Shah
Message: Posted by: Gulyás Imre Miklós (Jan 7, 2013 05:20PM)
Btw Marion Robin Hood was a nobleman :P
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 7, 2013 05:26PM)
Hey Gunny, maybe you should be speaking to Billy from Iowa mostly as to levels and what makes a "real" magician, etc. :D

Hey Billy, so you think Jonathan Kamm is good huh? :D. Gunny said he's "proficient" and is still reveling over Darwin Ortiz, as well he should...He's pretty slick alright. Levels! :)

Oh, and I missed Youell here early on. He ain't no VIP for nothin' as to accomplishment, proficiency, all them books Gunny read and more as to the very best of card magic and why. Yep, levels.

Hey Gunny, lets sorta mix apples and oranges here for a sec... "With cards", does Ortiz have more ability than the Buck Twins? Because you know they can do all that gambling stuff he can do. Can he do what they can do, is his act any better? Depends right? Hey which one would be the hoofer and which the fine dancer? What levels within the levels are we talking about as to yesterday and today as to cards? I'm just askin'. :) I can see Billy now running to YouTube. :D
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 7, 2013 05:38PM)
Am I missing something? He is good, not better then most workers.....but, then again, its all context. Could he do my gigs....nah, but I would love less technically proficiant workers to fill in. I watched his videos and his effects are real workers...so I respect that. He is clean with his moves (or should I say move), but nothing special in respects to high level technical work.

He sure isn't richard turner in technical aspects and *** sure isn't bill malone in performance(or technique)....I must be missing something?

Billy
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 7, 2013 06:08PM)
Well this has been fun.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 7, 2013 06:17PM)
Apology accepted, Kent. Don't let it happen again!! HL.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 7, 2013 06:23PM)
Hasn't it? Oh, such fun.

Here is something really nice, it's some sort of Ambitious Card routine from off the internets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Now I'm not saying he couldn't learn a thing or two from Vinnie, whoever he is, but it's not bad. Right?
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 7, 2013 06:23PM)
Marion,

Bucks compared to Ortiz . . . ability. They're different, really different. I know all three of them practice and perform way more than you me or Vinny. All three of them are also significantly better than the vast majority of people who have ever touched a deck of cards. Dan and Dave brought a whole new edge to card magic. They're fantastic flourishers and wonderful magicians. They produce some of the finest videos on the market; both their own material and that of other great magicians. I suspect Dan and Dave do not have you, me or Vinny on speed dial.

Darwin Ortiz, not so much on the flourishing. I believe, with all my heart he has created some of the finest card magic ever conceived and performs that magic seamlessly and without peer. His written material, from "The Annotated Erdnase" to his latest work "Lessons in Card Mastery" contains one of the greatest bodies of magic with cards created by a single man.

Kinda puts our little quibble into perspective. Popping off some refined handlings of the DeManche change, coming up with an ambitious routine sans double-lift or creating a cups and balls routine pales in comparison.

Don't listen to me, MB or Vinny. Get a Darwin Ortiz book, buy "The Trilogy". Learn from the true masters of magic. Ignore the rabble, here at the Café.

I'm done here Marion. I think you have my number. Call anytime.

KG
Message: Posted by: rage0351 (Jan 7, 2013 06:32PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 19:23, tomsk192 wrote:
Hasn't it? Oh, such fun.

Here is something really nice, it's some sort of Ambitious Card routine from off the internets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrApPgoWZqE

Now I'm not saying he couldn't learn a thing or two from Vinnie, whoever he is, but it's not bad. Right?
[/quote]

Why more people do not study Wonder and other master's is beyond me.

To those who argue that Vernon also used sucker moves...go read more Vernon and Tamariz. The so called sucker moves in their routines serve an important purpose. What Vinny shares here does not.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2013-01-07 03:27, Uli Weigel wrote:
I'm just a mere amateur, when it comes to card magic. I'd like to hear from the experts here, who complimented Vinnie on his "great work", "excellent work" etc, what they mean. The technique, the structure of the routine, the handling details? I don't doubt your expertise and I really couldn't do any of Vinnies moves myself, even if I tried, but I'd love it, if you guys could be a bit more elaborate, so I can follow you reasoning. Thank you!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am still waiting to hear a response to this.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 7, 2013 07:03PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 19:32, rage0351 wrote:
Why more people do not study Wonder and other master's is beyond me.
[/quote]

I dunno, maybe it's not "top flight" for them?

Reading Tommy Wonder, or Tom Stone if you want to be contemporary about it, shows just how much practice, thought, (practice), analysis, (practice), scrutiny, (practice), experimentation, (practice), development, (practice), scripting, (practice), silent scripting, (practice), multiple performance, tweaking and practice is involved.

On the other hand, you can just set up a web cam and record whatever.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 7, 2013 07:04PM)
Wow I can't believe this lol
I offered severl moves or IDEAS THAT CAN BE USED IN ANYONES ACR ROUTINE ,what I shot was not a routine just some ideas
that can be used for magicians arsenal ,,, I could of demonstrated another 50 that no one has ever SEEN ....
but these moves are on my latest DVD The godfather tips his hand..
as for me being a amature ,,,,that I am not ,,,i have lectured at the world famous magic CASTLE AND ASO LECTURED SEVEAL TIMES AT MAGIC GALORE AND of which MORE MANY OF THE TOP magicians in the world lecture ////
remember I am doing this for a camera not a live audience where I interact and use misdirection.
this is not about me it is about my material , ANYONE CAN USE,. I HAVE BEEN USING THESE TECHNIQUES FOR YEARS AND THEY WORK FOR ME IN THE REAL WORLD..
remember it takes guts an courage to pull of the stuff I do , I am not a clone of anyone I am my self ,,
BILLY FROM IOWA ,please put up some of your ideas so we can critque your work..
the godfather of magic
vinny
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 7, 2013 07:34PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 19:23, kentfgunn wrote:
Marion,

Bucks compared to Ortiz . . . ability. They're different, really different. I know all three of them practice and perform way more than you me or Vinny. All three of them are also significantly better than the vast majority of people who have ever touched a deck of cards. Dan and Dave brought a whole new edge to card magic. They're fantastic flourishers and wonderful magicians. They produce some of the finest videos on the market; both their own material and that of other great magicians. I suspect Dan and Dave do not have you, me or Vinny on speed dial.

Darwin Ortiz, not so much on the flourishing. I believe, with all my heart he has created some of the finest card magic ever conceived and performs that magic seamlessly and without peer. His written material, from "The Annotated Erdnase" to his latest work "Lessons in Card Mastery" contains one of the greatest bodies of magic with cards created by a single man.

Kinda puts our little quibble into perspective. Popping off some refined handlings of the DeManche change, coming up with an ambitious routine sans double-lift or creating a cups and balls routine pales in comparison.

Don't listen to me, MB or Vinny. Get a Darwin Ortiz book, buy "The Trilogy". Learn from the true masters of magic. Ignore the rabble, here at the Café.

I'm done here Marion. I think you have my number. Call anytime.

KG
[/quote]

I'll take all that to mean that basically you don't know. :D Yeah, them levels are something, ain't they? Depends on what you're comparing. Anybody can compare what they like with what they don't like -- kids do that better than anybody. :D But I give you two giants in their own right with the same tools and all of the sudden... ;) I see Harry Lorayne stopped by, you think he's in between the two or three as it were, or will you pull out yet another "difference" card? :D

And oh, I've read some of Ortiz' work, like "Strong Magic" and have even reached out to him about a friend of mine that became quite a card man. He once told me to ask Darwin about him and I did. And Darwin said yeah, he's the real deal alright. Same kid I used to run through the backyards with, the actual kid that coined the term, "Good Garbage." We used to do magic together as kids. He was always a perfectionist and I'm not surprised that he became so good with a deck of cards that Darwin Ortiz knew exactly who he was. So not exactly speed dial but small world, huh? ;)

I'll give you a call bro. ;)
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 7, 2013 07:37PM)
Marion,

Never said I didn't know. It was a silly comparison that's all.

I don't want to rank anybody. You started with the top-flight thing.

You rank who you want to. I'm going to go finish reading Card Mastery. It'll do me more good than this.

KG
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 7, 2013 07:42PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 20:04, vinsmagic wrote:
Wow I can't believe this lol
I offered severl moves or IDEAS THAT CAN BE USED IN ANYONES ACR ROUTINE ,what I shot was not a routine just some ideas
that can be used for magicians arsenal ,,,

[/quote]

You know, to be fair, you DID say:

[quote]
On 2013-01-05 14:15, vinsmagic wrote:
This is a ambitious card [u][b]routine[/b][/u] with out the use of a double or tripple ...

[/quote]

Of course, to also be fair, I don't think it was the "routine" aspect which was being viewed critically, but rather the abrupt and unmotivated movements, etc. Misdirection is meaningless when you immediately draw their eyes back to your hands with a sudden jerky move.
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 7, 2013 07:42PM)
Vinny,

I have put many videos on this site, and often they have not got positive responses....tis the internet, however I was not jaded and "taking it out" on other posters videos, I just felt your moves could cause a reaction that I would personally not invite.

BIlly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StbsZYNoZ5c

This is a little video that I made awhile ago that got many negative reviews, lol. It suffers from the lack of tempo that an audience would generate, so perhaps I feel your pain.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 7, 2013 08:23PM)
A card routine? How dare you! :)
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 7, 2013 09:14PM)
GDW WHO CARES so I mis used the word routine, this is only a demo video, with moves PROBABLY you cant do....
Billy you did nothing new in your demo you have good chops , BUT this is not what my demo is about ...... you don't care for them so what move on. at LEAST I DID SOME MOVES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SEEN BEFORE.
and many many magicians here on the Café HAVE WRITTEN TO ME AND ASKED FOR THE EXPLAINATION.
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 7, 2013 09:58PM)
Vinny,

I have made/invented one move in my life time.....becuse there was no classical move that worked for what I was trying too do. My point is that making moves for the sake of "invention" does not qualify said moves to be better then the classic versions. If they are not better and I am getting paid to perform, why evoke negative reactions with jerky movments when you could easily and cleanly perform classic moves during an ACR?

My problem is that some people on this board may not have as much experience as you and this could breed "problamatic" performances and leave negative taste in the mouth of both the spectators veiws on magic and on the young magician as well.

I just watched your other video and loved the effect! Im not trying to be a jerk, just wanted to be the balance amongst the others that didn't seem to see the flaw in the ACR moves (not all of them).

In regards to people asking for an explanation....its free, enough said.

Billy
Message: Posted by: LiquidSn (Jan 7, 2013 10:13PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 22:14, vinsmagic wrote:
GDW WHO CARES so I mis used the word routine, this is only a demo video, with moves PROBABLY you cant do....
Billy you did nothing new in your demo you have good chops , BUT this is not what my demo is about ...... you don't care for them so what move on. at LEAST I DID SOME MOVES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SEEN BEFORE.
and many many magicians here on the Café HAVE WRITTEN TO ME AND ASKED FOR THE EXPLAINATION.
[/quote]

I for one know that GDW can't do these moves. That's beyond probability.

Thank goodness.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 7, 2013 10:43PM)
Well SIN, your buddy Eric Jones used my move that he WAS SELLING ON ELLUSIONIST THAT HE CALLED THE AVAION CHANGE ONLY IT WASN'T HIS It was one of my moves on ambition. THE GUN CHANGE.that you just knocked, but every knock is a boost
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Jan 7, 2013 10:52PM)
Guys, I can't stand it when a very nice thread turns sour like the above. Vinny's a great guy, a fine performer, and has great chops with a deck of cards. He took his time to make the video of several outstanding ambitious card moves done at a very fast pace. And he posted it in this thread for all of us to see. And then some of you jump all over him and criticize his work for no good reason. The first time I watched it I knew immediately that he had just made a quick, moves-only, demo video. Not a finished routine and he was NOT trying to perform, just share a collection of excellent moves. Some of you had the audacity to compare him unfavorably with other performers.

I'll tell you a story that you don't know which shows what a great thinker and generous guy that Vinny is. In a private email I shared a quick little Ambitious card routine I had created years ago which I thought was much cleaner than most. Since I'm not a video guy I wrote out the sequence of moves and sent them to Vinny. Within 24 hours I got a response. Vinny had taken my routine and added a special something to it which made it even cleaner than the handling I thought was clean and which made it far easier to do. And to top it off he attached a video clip which he had made only for me to show me how strong his improvement to my routine was. It is, in fact, about the cleanest and easiest to do Ambitious Card sequence I've ever seen... and I've been in Magic for 43 years. (And I've lectured twice at the Magic Castle and done well over 100 shows there.)

Vinny Rocks!!!

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: RamonT (Jan 7, 2013 11:57PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 23:43, vinsmagic wrote:
Well SIN, your buddy Eric Jones used my move that he WAS SELLING ON ELLUSIONIST THAT HE CALLED THE AVAION CHANGE ONLY IT WASN'T HIS It was one of my moves on ambition. THE GUN CHANGE.that you just knocked, but every knock is a boost
[/quote]

Vinny, There just no way around them, haters always will be haters, just let them suffer and eat their hearts out. :),:), :).
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Jan 8, 2013 12:05AM)
To Rage0351,

You just don't get it. I'm guessing that you're about six years old... am I right? Whatever your chronological age, that's about your level of maturity. If you didn't like Vinny's work (and you ARE entitled to your opinion) the thing to do would be to close the thread and just go read another. I think that Steve Brooks would agree with me that the Café is here so that we can help each other and form a community of amateur and professional magicians sharing with each other.

For those of us that make a living doing magic (I've done that since 1970) it goes without saying that card sleights are done on the off-beat and under cover of good misdirection. These moves were done on the video as a teaching exercise with Vinny sharing the moves with other magicians. All of these moves can be done in such a way that lay people are highly unlikely to see any false moves when they are done properly in the context of a live performance.

So grow up and get into the positive spirit of the Café and we'll all be willing to help you and share with you.

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: LiquidSn (Jan 8, 2013 12:50AM)
Yes, there are sleights that are done off-beat or with misdirection. BUT for the most part, its the fault with the mechanics of the sleight or the inability of the performer.

There is a simple test to weed out all the weak/bad sleights.

Ask yourself one simple question. "Is it REALLY that hard to do that?" I'm not talking method, but what you are suppose to be emulating.

If you are putting a card into the center of the deck and then do a huge swing to accomplish the control, ask that question.
Is it REALLY that hard to put 1 card into the middle of the deck?

Take sleight of hand out of the equation for a second. Would you EVER do that if you REALLY put a card into the middle of the deck? Sleight of hand conforms to the nature of what you are doing. Go MICRO. Examine everything. If your primary reason of why you are doing something is because of sleight of hand, you are doing it wrong.

We all are very easily self blinded to what we are doing. Sleight of hand is suppose to be invisible, right?

Remember this please. Just because you are doing sleight of hand DOES NOT mean it is invisible.

Sleight of hand DOES NOT EQUAL invisibility.


I'm sure if I ever met Vinny in real life we would have a good talk over a beer. This isn't personal. What I'm not a fan of is this illogical reasoning of putting out material like this.

So what this thread has taught me is that I can put out anything I want. Regardless if I haven't put the time or thought to make it good in hopes of getting praise from people.
If people criticize my moves I pull out the line that I am only doing this as a test. It's me "brain storming". It's bad because its on video. In real life it works.

Okay, I get that... But then you can't pull out the whole "This is original and I'm the best! Here is what I have done! PM ME! I give you my method!"

It's either you are WORKING on it, or you have confidence to let people judge your work.

Pick one. Give reason. Give me a reason to see your side. You can't just hide behind, "oh, you are mean".

TRUST ME when I say this. People are not harsh to Vinny's work because somehow we hate him personally. I don't wake up in the morning thinking I need to rip Vinny a new one.

When it comes to a method of controlling a card, it is very objective. Subjectivity lies with the effect and presentation. You either use sleight of hand to emulate what you would do normally or you don't.

I am a believer that magic is learned best by proving what you believe in. If you really do believe in what you are doing, then argue with reasons of why. If I defend my reasoning of the sleights I do with my credentials and my fan club, that would be crazy! Why not just tell me why you think it's good. We will listen.

I want magic to improve. I want magicians to be better. Hell, I want to be a better magician. I'm a student for life.

It isn't about finding the right answer. It's about asking the right question.

If we can't ask and critique each other, then this is all pointless.

-Tony Chang
Message: Posted by: Serrodash (Jan 8, 2013 02:06AM)
The moves in the video have natural homes in an ACR routine. No slight looks perfectly natural independently, no method is universal. The pass is a perfect example; to cover a pass you have to make sure that in the routine you give room and reason for the motion. Tony, you can't see the macro with all your micro (god I sound like I'm talking SC). Magicians, comrades, brothers, sisters; I don't think vinny here was hunting for kudos. He got kudos for sure. Probably because I've been doing the same pass and lift, wonderbox finish ACR for years and needed some new ideas to spice it up. I don't think magicians come here for reviews, mainly because we are notoriously incapable of seeing our art. A penny for thoughts and such, I'd rather this place be like those late nights trading slights with some fellow performers over drinks. No one needs to brandish irreverence or reverence here. chill.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 8, 2013 02:30AM)
Hi Tony if we met in real life and had a beer together you would learn about life . just by talking to me,you see to learn about life one has to live long enough .
next I never said what I do is the best . I have always in my 73 years shared my magic with anyone in hopes to make what I did better...but you do not understand this..
I want to be critized only if one takes what I shared worked on it and see for your self if this works or not I have been doing this longer than you are alive... and it works in the real world

there was no presentation in ambition I only strung a series of moves together which I called a routine but in reality it mearly showing some controls to add to ones arsenal if willing to try them.
Dennis lomas tried to tell you what I was doing ,this was not showing off but only asome tools to use rather than a double lift..

Eric jones took my idea and sold it on Ellusionist as the avaion change then later finding out it was my effect he said he would change the name and give me credit this was two months ago he and Brad still are selling the effect ..under ther avaion change..
I said pm me and I will send the handling not to expose on internet .

at 73 years old my hands are not the best there are thoes much more capable than me,

as for Rage this demos waS POSTED AS A TEACHING DEMO BECAUSE I HAVE ALWAYS POSTED AND THEN GAVE MY HANDLINGS TO ANYONE THAT ASKED .
Rage is right about what he says studing the masters, however not all of us are so fortunate to do this. REMEMBER ANYONE THAT DID SOMTHING THAT WAS NOT THE NORM WAS MOCKED ... I rest my case
vinny
the godfather of magic
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jan 8, 2013 05:54AM)
I am going to offer my voice and if it draws fire so be it. I have followed this thread and it has taken a deplorable turn. If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand? Vinny Marini is one of the most selfless persons in this community and to see him ill-used like this makes me sick. All of you taking cheap shots are just as Mickey Painless would say "a bunch of keyboard warriors." Is Vinny a friend? Yes he is and I am privileged to have him as a friend. Can I do 1/3 of the stuff he does? Not in a million years. That said, many of you fail to consider that Vinny tells you right up front what you are seeing and so of course it's easy to criticize - much like some people criticized Christian Engblom's Cooler.

I wonder how many of you would have slammed Max Malini? Much of his magic was VERY bold. Read Vernon's book about Malini. I watched Vinny's routine a number of times and while the ONLY ACR I perform is Larry Jennings' Ambitious Classic, I have seen some moves in Vinny's routine that I would love to use as controls in much the same way as I have adopted some of the moves from Harry Lorayne's ACR.

I wish I could count how many times Vinny has offered GRATIS routines and sleights of his own making on this Café. I admire the man for his true old school spirit. Vinny IS emblematic of Magicians Helping Magicians. But again, if you don't like it, change the bleeding channel. The only reason I haven't asked Vinny for the routine is because I feel guilty: the man has given me so much already.

My voice means little if anything in the community and that's cool. I am not here to prove a ***ed thing. I see my friend being shot at so I will take some of the bullets. Grow up some of you or at least in the words of Dominic Napolitano, "hit me again and make it good."

Vlad
Message: Posted by: Joe Momma (Jan 8, 2013 06:05AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 06:54, Vlad_77 wrote:
I wonder how many of you would have slammed Max Malini? Much of his magic was VERY bold.
[/quote]

Yes, but it was also good.
Message: Posted by: Uli Weigel (Jan 8, 2013 06:24AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 06:54, Vlad_77 wrote:
If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand?
[/quote]

This is a discussion forum, not an if-you-don't-like-it-shut-up-forum. Is that so difficult to understand?
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 06:27AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-07 22:14, vinsmagic wrote:
GDW WHO CARES so I mis used the word routine, this is only a demo video, with moves PROBABLY you cant do....
Billy you did nothing new in your demo you have good chops , BUT this is not what my demo is about ...... you don't care for them so what move on. at LEAST I DID SOME MOVES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SEEN BEFORE.
and many many magicians here on the Café HAVE WRITTEN TO ME AND ASKED FOR THE EXPLAINATION.
[/quote]

I was just trying to be fair. You were the one who claimed it wasn't a routine. I was just pointing out that it would be an honest confusion on the part of others as you had previously called it a routine.

[quote]
On 2013-01-07 22:37, vinsmagic wrote:
I letured for the fellow ship of Christian magicians. did you think I Made a false statement, it WAS NOT A LECTURE FOR THE MAGICIAL ARTS...... WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH AMBITION ...... I HAVE OVER 60 YEARS OF MAGIC UNDEDR MY BELT .
[/quote]

I don't know, what DOES it have to do with it? You were the one who brought up your lecture at the Castle.
So much hostility in this thread.
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jan 8, 2013 06:36AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 01:05, Dennis Loomis wrote:
To Rage0351,

You just don't get it. I'm guessing that you're about six years old... am I right? Whatever your chronological age, that's about your level of maturity. If you didn't like Vinny's work (and you ARE entitled to your opinion) the thing to do would be to close the thread and just go read another. I think that Steve Brooks would agree with me that the Café is here so that we can help each other and form a community of amateur and professional magicians sharing with each other.

For those of us that make a living doing magic (I've done that since 1970) it goes without saying that card sleights are done on the off-beat and under cover of good misdirection. These moves were done on the video as a teaching exercise with Vinny sharing the moves with other magicians. All of these moves can be done in such a way that lay people are highly unlikely to see any false moves when they are done properly in the context of a live performance.

So grow up and get into the positive spirit of the Café and we'll all be willing to help you and share with you.

Dennis Loomis
[/quote]

My point is that the video is more harmfull then helpfull....

But as I said in many other posts....I think Vinny is great in some of the other videos...just not this one.

BIlly
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 06:46AM)
Bold magic is one thing. Bold methods are one thing. In your face magic is I've thing. However, the only thing "in your face" in this video are the sleights themselves.
Even a single move performed out of context should not be calling attention to itself.
Yes, this IS about magicians helping magicians. That includes pointing out when we see something that people should not be adopting.
Vinny, I've seen some effective work of yours. I also believe some of these ideas absolutely can work and have a place. And yes, I'm saying that NOT looking at this as a routine unto itself.
The real critique that I am seeing here is the abrupt changes every time a move is done. You're moving very slow and deliberately at other moments, and then BAM here's the sleight.
Misdirection or not, that is not something to be emulated. Especially when the moves don't necessitate it.
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Jan 8, 2013 07:18AM)
Okay...taking all of these comments into account, let me suggest the following: Vinny, if you were to perform these moves as a routine for a group of magicians (as was your stated purpose off the top), what would it look like? What would you do to make it more transparent, smoother, less "bam!" Is there any way you would be willing to shoot a revised video to show all of us...those who love your work, as well as those who don't...how fluid your (and their) ACR can look with your sleights?

One other point: Vinny says...[quote]Hi Tony if we met in real life and had a beer together you would learn about life . just by talking to me,you see to learn about life one has to live long enough .[/quote] Given that Tony Chang is one of the best card workers in the world...that he's lectured at places like Magic-Con, and will be lecturing at the Golden Gate Gathering and SAM conventions this year...and given that he's incredibly humble about it all...I guess the question is, "What would you, Vinny, learn from him?" I've found that I learn something from almost every single person with whom I speak, if I'm willing to listen.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Jan 8, 2013 07:25AM)
My opinion is that if somebody puts out a video for all of us to see, it can and should be critisized. Why would Vinny be above critique, while in another topic on this same subforum a guy doing an ACR (yes an ACR) gets slammed by other people (including famous magicians)?
Don't we all have learning to do? Imagine if I were to pick up a guitar, butchered an entire song and posted it on a music forum. Wouldn't I actually want to get critique, just to help me improve? I don't think this is an personal matter, since many people who voiced their opinion also clearly stated WHY they don't like it. It just won't fool when its used in a repetition effect where people will watch closer with each and every fase.
Message: Posted by: Serrodash (Jan 8, 2013 07:57AM)
Lol, erdnase. The proper analogy would be if I posted a video where I did a series of licks and arpeggio flourishes in the same mode and people on the forum bashed me because the song didn't have a chorus and a verse. In performance Vinny directs like a master and nails the moves subtly; go look up an actual performance. Here he is exhibiting slights and methods and offering an explanation for anyone curious. Again, thanks for the moves Vinny.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 08:10AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 08:57, Serrodash wrote:
Lol, erdnase. The proper analogy would be if I posted a video where I did a series of licks and arpeggio flourishes in the same mode and people on the forum bashed me because the song didn't have a chorus and a verse. In performance Vinny directs like a master and nails the moves subtly; go look up an actual performance. Here he is exhibiting slights and methods and offering an explanation for anyone curious. Again, thanks for the moves Vinny.
[/quote]

Although the "routine" aspect has come up, I don't think that has ever been the real critique of anyone here. It's the way each of the moves is screaming, calling attention to itself.

One can post isolated moves, or a series of disconnected moves, without making each one pop like a flourish. You don't need the context of a routine to not call attention to every time you do a move.
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Jan 8, 2013 08:13AM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVfkYReEMQ

Here's a video from one of our posters.

Can you guys see the difference in:

Video production
Presentation
Skill of the performer
Preparation of the performer

?

Follow the light. For the times they are a Changin'
Tony Chang'in that is.
Message: Posted by: Serrodash (Jan 8, 2013 08:28AM)
My point, GDW, is that the video was exhibiting raw mechanics. It's hard for me to see where the bashing or critique is coming from as nothing is on the table as a solid product. It would be like calling the advocate useless because Daniel Madison did the laziest, most raw, exhibition of it at EMC. Madison wasn't putting on a performance, he wanted to show what the index could do on the most basic mechanical level. Speaking of Madison, the man who cops to his pocket every other second, I think what he does is probably the current trend for card magic. Just to disagree with the pun put forth by Kent.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 08:53AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 09:28, Serrodash wrote:
My point, GDW, is that the video was exhibiting raw mechanics. It's hard for me to see where the bashing or critique is coming from as nothing is on the table as a solid product. It would be like calling the advocate useless because Daniel Madison did the laziest, most raw, exhibition of it at EMC. Madison wasn't putting on a performance, he wanted to show what the index could do on the most basic mechanical level. Speaking of Madison, the man who cops to his pocket every other second, I think what he does is probably the current trend for card magic. Just to disagree with the pun put forth by Kent.
[/quote]

Who said anything was useless?

Also, we've been talking about honest and 100% valid critiques. It's hard for me to see where the harsh reactions to such are coming from.
Message: Posted by: Serrodash (Jan 8, 2013 09:07AM)
My mellow has remained unharshed gdw. I just think the criticisms don't really apply. Vinny seems ****ed, but that's because those were his moves. Now, lets let the thread fade away into the archive.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 8, 2013 09:08AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 08:18, Steve Friedberg wrote:
Okay...taking all of these comments into account, let me suggest the following: Vinny, if you were to perform these moves as a routine for a group of magicians (as was your stated purpose off the top), what would it look like? What would you do to make it more transparent, smoother, less "bam!" Is there any way you would be willing to shoot a revised video to show all of us...those who love your work, as well as those who don't...how fluid your (and their) ACR can look with your sleights?

One other point: Vinny says...[quote]Hi Tony if we met in real life and had a beer together you would learn about life . just by talking to me,you see to learn about life one has to live long enough .[/quote] Given that Tony Chang is one of the best card workers in the world...that he's lectured at places like Magic-Con, and will be lecturing at the Golden Gate Gathering and SAM conventions this year...and given that he's incredibly humble about it all...I guess the question is, "What would you, Vinny, learn from him?" I've found that I learn something from almost every single person with whom I speak, if I'm willing to listen.
[/quote]

I think Vinny was referring mostly to his life experiences, as he mentioned his age of 73 years. Of course his experience in magic is within that breath of time as well. Tony Chang may be a world class worker but what is he, 35 or so, maybe? And no, age is not a problem but don't so easily dismiss what Vinny has experienced/contributed in twice the time on this earth. I'm sure like both of them said, they could share a beer and no doubt learning would occur on both sides of the table and even greater respect would be earned from these guys. I think a guy like Harry Lorayne would feel the same way. Perhaps he don't have the chops of young Tony Chang, but I would believe that he would think Tony could learn some things from him as well, in all his years doing card magic. And for what it's worth, I appreciate your comments on all this, Tony's as well and any comments here that are not so callously put.
Message: Posted by: Mano (Jan 8, 2013 09:38AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 09:13, kentfgunn wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVfkYReEMQ

Here's a video from one of our posters.

Can you guys see the difference in:

Video production
Presentation
Skill of the performer
Preparation of the performer

?

Follow the light. For the times they are a Changin'
Tony Chang'in that is.
[/quote]


I am all of a sudden puzzled here, are you trying to compare them? I honestly don't see your point.



Mano Tejeda.
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Jan 8, 2013 09:59AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 10:08, Mb217 wrote:I think Vinny was referring mostly to his life experiences, as he mentioned his age of 73 years. Of course his experience in magic is within that breath of time as well. Tony Chang may be a world class worker but what is he, 35 or so, maybe? And no, age is not a problem but don't so easily dismiss what Vinny has experienced/contributed in twice the time on this earth. I'm sure like both of them said, they could share a beer and no doubt learning would occur on both sides of the table and even greater respect would be earned from these guys. I think a guy like Harry Lorayne would feel the same way. Perhaps he don't have the chops of young Tony Chang, but I would believe that he would think Tony could learn some things from him as well, in all his years doing card magic. And for what it's worth, I appreciate your comments on all this, Tony's as well and any comments here that are not so callously put.
[/quote]

Marion:
I'm not discounting Vinny's experiences in the least. I mean, I'm 56...so I'm not that horribly far behind. And you confirm the point I made...that both sides can learn from the other. I guess I've been at this game of life long enough (as opposed to the game of Stratego) to understand that it behooves all of us to listen every now and then. There was a famous writer of satirical songs who stopped writing them as he got older; he said that as he aged, he began listening to other arguments. And, he said, it was difficult to write protest songs that included the lyrics, "Yes, but...."
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Jan 8, 2013 10:06AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 07:24, Uli Weigel wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 06:54, Vlad_77 wrote:
If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand?
[/quote]

This is a discussion forum, not an if-you-don't-like-it-shut-up-forum. Is that so difficult to understand?
[/quote]

Problem is Uli, I have seen more flaming aimed at Vinny than discussion. You know and I know it. And people like Joe Momma knows it. Tell me please how Joe Momma's answer to Malini's magic was in anyway a discussion?

@Joe Momma: WHY was Malini's magic "better?" What criterion do you base such an opinion on? As Uli stated, this is a discussion. I am interested in your answer as much as I would be interested in your answer if I had asked the question if Vernon's magic was "better" than Marlo's. Note that I am using "" around the word "better."

@Erdnase: The issue isn't that Vinny or anybody is above criticism; the issue is that ATTACKING someone is bad form. This thread started with Vinny offering a routine or whatever some of you want to call it - hell we are getting into a semantics game here! - and offered it freely to anyone who wanted it. Many threads on here ask people to critique and that's a good thing. But this thread has turned ugly. Why? NOT because of the critiques, but somehow, Vinny offers something of his own for free and some people lambast him for it.

I ask those of you who have practically nailed Vinny to a cross: Why is it that someone who gives something in good spirit is knocked for it? What does Vinny have to gain by giving something away?

Kent Gunn has at least offered substantive opinion and Marion has countered likewise and neither of these guys have gotten nasty with each other. Some will chime in and state that Vinny got nasty first. But again, he created the thread to show something and GIVE IT AWAY for Heaven's sake.

Yes, Vinny's magic IS unorthodox; he will be the very first to tell you that. A lot of old timers have told me that Jerry Andrus was knocked all the time for the same thing. I am not saying that everybody has to LIKE Vinny's magic - what a boring world it would be if we all liked the same thing. I am not addressing thst. I am absolutely lost however as to the meanness that has surfaced in a thread in which a gift was offered in good spirit.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Jan 8, 2013 10:08AM)
Tony is amazing and the video was very well produced. Vinny jumped in front of a camera just to demonstrate a handful of Ambitious Card moves to other magicians. He didn't feel that he had to say that this was not a performance of an actual Ambitious Card Routine intended for lay people. He was being generous to share these moves with us and a handful of nay sayers jumped all over him. The problem was that the critics were challenging the video for not being something that it was not intended to be.

Had the critics simply pointed out that in an actual Ambitious Card Routine for a lay audience the moves would have to be done on the off beat and under cover of misdirection then Vinny would have certainly agreed and all of the acrimony would have been avoided.

As for me, I've got a new killer version of the Ambitious Card effect to add to my repertoire because of Vinny's insight and generosity. Long live the Godfather!

Dennis Loomis
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 10:14AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 11:06, Vlad_77 wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 07:24, Uli Weigel wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 06:54, Vlad_77 wrote:
If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand?
[/quote]

This is a discussion forum, not an if-you-don't-like-it-shut-up-forum. Is that so difficult to understand?
[/quote]

Problem is Uli, I have seen more flaming aimed at Vinny than discussion. You know and I know it. And people like Joe Momma knows it. Tell me please how Joe Momma's answer to Malini's magic was in anyway a discussion?
. . .
[/quote]

"If you don't like Vinny's magic, guess what? DON'T DO IT, DON'T VIEW IT! Is that so difficult to understand? "

How is that, in any way discussion, or, even remotely, doing anything but promoting the exact OPPOSITE of discussion?
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 8, 2013 10:23AM)
First and foremost Kent this is a perfect example of a professionaly shot demo perfect angles, edits ,ect, any magician can see Tony's fingers moving under the cards to perform the slights..My demo is about my work doing or trying to do something different. not about my skill..i don't compare myself to anyone

Tony's demo is about trying to try and sell a product, I am not selling anything I shot it straight on for all to see the good and the bad,,, big deal;

Steve I think a ACR is very boaring,,, I tried to add some spice to anyone routine even yours by perhaps taking one of the moves an adding it to existing routines....there is no motivation in what I shot it weas just a bunch of controls.... there was no story I hate stories in magic it is all fake ...

Also I can do things that you or tony or kent or anyone can not do this does not make me better than anyone
I am different
Steve you mentuoned to me you were proud to perform Ortiz and Vernon's work at the magic castle that's very good. I perform my own work even if it is not up to your standards but it is still my work not anyone elses.i don't need to prove anyting to anyone at least I have the courage to put my work out in the public's eye so all can either bash or like .
.
Message: Posted by: MarkSpitzer (Jan 8, 2013 10:33AM)
Nice ideas for additional tools in the toolbox. Thank you for offering them!
I really do appreciate your ongoing generosity.
One (kidding) comment: This uses ALL your applicable controls except one???
Ok, maybe not strictly a control in the set-up, but don't you have a Han Ping Chien type move you could use at the reveal?

[side note: I have not posted my comments on your upcoming DVD release not so much out of not knowing where to post it, but because I am basically a lazy ***. I brought my pre-release copy with me to the Czech Republic while I'm on the road this month. Do you want me to post here; http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=494371&forum=3 , here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=494413&forum=2 or in another thread?]

Greetings from Prague, Czech Republic!
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 10:35AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 11:06, Vlad_77 wrote:
. . .

Problem is Uli, I have seen more flaming aimed at Vinny than discussion. You know and I know it. And people like Joe Momma knows it. Tell me please how Joe Momma's answer to Malini's magic was in anyway a discussion?
. . .

@Erdnase: The issue isn't that Vinny or anybody is above criticism; the issue is that ATTACKING someone is bad form.

. . .
[/quote]

People "attacking" Vinny, you mean like this:

"Lest I be accused of trolling. There may (or may not) be value in what Vinnie is offering.
I simply find these moves inappropriate in the context of an AC routine."

"p.s. no disrespect becuse I have seen other videos from the OP that are amazing."

" I don't doubt your expertise and I really couldn't do any of Vinnies moves myself, even if I tried, but I'd love it, if you guys could be a bit more elaborate, so I can follow you reasoning. Thank you! "

"Vinny's whole persona, as he relates it, is "In your face magic". Not my cup of tea. "

I have not seen any "attacks" on Vinny, just criticisms of the moves in this video. Quite often accompanied by compliments on some of Vinny's other work.

Almost everything I have read, and I just re-read the whole thread, that is critical, is focused on the moves as presented in this video, not attacking or flaming Vinny at all. That's not to say there hasn't been attacking or flaming in this thread.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 8, 2013 10:37AM)
Hi Mark sure you can post here the dvds will be available either this week or next on my web sight vinnymarini.com

look for the details,,,,,
vivinny
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 10:41AM)
Correction, there HAVE been comments criticizing Vinny's approach to disseminating his material, when compared to the value of some classics. However, that is not attacking Vinny. I think that is something that is DEFINITELY worthy of discussion and critique.

Personally, I think Vinny's generosity is great. It think we need more competition in the information that is shared like this. I also think that people critiquing, and criticizing, information like this is also needed. Peer review is important. Many people share many things, that doesn't mean that it will all have beneficial results to those consuming the information.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 8, 2013 10:49AM)
Gdw good points , but for those critiquing the controls have they tried them ???? or is it just they do not like what they see?/ remember this is on camera not in real life.

if you watch Eric Jonesb perform my move it looks teriffic in his hands of course proper angles and perfect lighting ect ect
no one ever said it was bad when he did it that's because it was performed by someone other than me ,and I am the target here believe it or not/
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 8, 2013 10:50AM)
Well, GDW, you won't know until you share.

And for what it's worth, it's a bit crazy to expect that everyone will get something out of what you do. Simply, that does not have to be the case. Hopefully when you put something out, someone will get something out of it. I happen to think that whether Vinny offers something for free or for cost, there will be people that will get something out of it, and that's all that has to happen to make it worthwhile and successful.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 8, 2013 10:53AM)
Thank you Marion fo saying that ..... and being a true friend everyone has a opinion,..

vinny
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 10:56AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 11:50, Mb217 wrote:
Well, GDW, you won't know until you share.

And for what it's worth, it's a bit crazy to expect that everyone will get something out of what you do. Simply, that does not have to be the case. Hopefully when you put something out, someone will get something out of it. I happen to think that whether Vinny offers something for free or for cost, there will be people that will get something out of it, and that's all that has to happen to make it worthwhile and successful.
[/quote]

I won't know what until I share?
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 10:58AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 11:49, vinsmagic wrote:
Gdw good points , but for those critiquing the controls have they tried them ???? or is it just they do not like what they see?/ remember this is on camera not in real life.

if you watch Eric Jonesb perform my move it looks teriffic in his hands of course proper angles and perfect lighting ect ect
no one ever said it was bad when he did it that's because it was performed by someone other than me ,and I am the target here believe it or not/
[/quote]

Well, like I said, the critiques seem to be focused on the execution. The way the actions almost always seem to be calling attention to themselves. The moves are almost emphasized, rather than made to look like natural and motivated actions.
Message: Posted by: Joe Momma (Jan 8, 2013 11:21AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 11:06, Vlad_77 wrote:
@Joe Momma: WHY was Malini's magic "better?"
[/quote]

I didn't say it was better. I said it was good.

Thanks for playing though, pick up your goody bag on the way out.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jan 8, 2013 11:46AM)
Gdw any time a I have put up a demo yourself, kent Tony have, alwasy disliked my work but I am agood friend with kent......and if we met we would also be good friendsthat I am sure of however at leas t tryone of my ideas then get back to me.
a now we have Rage at least I have the guts to put my name out there and not hide behind a rabbit..using a flase3 name..
if I was akded who my favorite magician was of all time it was Carl Ballentine was a he a great sight of hand artist no ,but he was one of the best performers of all time he did things that was completey different than the norm. this is who I immulate...
an other great performer today is Wit Haydan only he has chops to go along with is performance.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Jan 8, 2013 12:44PM)
Although I can't speak for Tony, or Kent, I believe this is the first time I've ever posted anything critical of your work.
I remember once commenting on the over modulating of your voice in all your videos, and sugested either a new mic, or simply speaking softer yourself, but that's about it, again, as far as I can remember.
Message: Posted by: Joe Momma (Jan 8, 2013 01:05PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 13:44, gdw wrote:
Although I can't speak for Tony, or Kent, I believe this is the first time I've ever posted anything critical of your work.
I remember once commenting on the over modulating of your voice in all your videos, and sugested either a new mic, or simply speaking softer yourself, but that's about it, again, as far as I can remember.
[/quote]

That's what happens on the internet. Someone makes a point that annoys someone. The annoyed person cannot actually argue against the point, so makes up some stuff to argue about in order to vent. Straw men I believe they are called.
Message: Posted by: Joe Momma (Jan 8, 2013 01:41PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-08 12:46, vinsmagic wrote:I was akded who my favorite magician was of all time it was Carl Ballentine was a he a great sight of hand artist no ,but he was one of the best performers of all time he did things that was completey different than the norm. this is who I immulate...
[/quote]

Job done. You emulate him perfectly.
Message: Posted by: duanebarry (Jan 8, 2013 02:57PM)
Framing goes a long way toward shaping people's responses.

Consider the difference:

1) "Here's a video catalog of my original controls for moving an inserted card to the top of the deck."
vs.
2) "Here's an ambitious card routine featuring my original controls."


#1 offers the moves and invites the reader to evaluate the mechanics and/or decide whether any of the moves might suit him/her for various applications.

#2 implicitly claims the moves are well suited for the Ambitious Card effect, AND presents the video as a [b]routine[/b] -- not as a catalog of sleights, not as a collection of possible phases for Ambitious Card, but as a [b]routine[/b].


As magicians, we can direct our audience's focus and shape their response. People will focus on different aspects and respond very differently to the same video, depending on the sentence(s) used to frame it.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 8, 2013 03:21PM)
[quote]On 2013-01-05 14:15, vinsmagic wrote:
This is a ambitious card routine with out the use of a double or tripple lift using all of my controls except for the Hop ...
http://youtu.be/DPdPJukFkHY
[/quote]
Having watched this thread for a few days now, and taken in the remarks from many long-time posters here as well as a few of our newest members, I'd like to add a few thoughts of my own. Take them for what they're worth (which I'll readily condede may not be much):

Vinny: you and I live too close to each other never to have met in person; I hope that that will change in the near future. Your generosity here is legendary, and your skill with a deck of cards far surpasses mine. I believe that a few here took your original post to mean that this was a routine - not simply a demonstration of a few sleights - and it's hard to blame them for that given your original post (quoted above). You've since said that you didn't intend it as a finished routine:

[quote]On 2013-01-07 20:04, vinsmagic wrote:
. . . what I shot was not a routine just some ideas . . . .[/quote]
Fair enough. Wipe away all of the criticisms that preceded that post and start afresh. Everyone.

When I first saw the video I thought - as others have said - that the break in tempo on some of the sleights would be too telling to a lay audience ("something happened there"). However, if put into a finished routine, it's easy to see that the breaks in tempo could either be slowed so that they're more in tempo, or covered by misdirection. It's also easy to see that beginners, not realizing that this isn't a finished routine, might emulate the demonstration for a lay audience and be disappointed by the reaction that engenders; that's a fair criticism (though maybe it should be leveled at beginners: understand what you're doing before you perform for the public).

Finally, I'm with Kent in saying that moves of this sort are not my cup of tea. That's my problem, not yours. But even if I would never perform such a routine, I may still be able to criticize it (which includes both positive and negative comments) in a way that gives you food for thought on improving it. (After watching Pop Haydn perform at the Castle, I PMed him with a suggestion to improve (i.e., add another laugh to) one of his routines, even though I would never perform it. I note that his latest adverts have incorporated my suggestion.) I believe that any suggestion that people who dislike something refrain from watching it or commenting on it goes against the spirit of this forum. We shouldn't tolerate attacks, but we should encourage sincere and thoughtful commentary, both positive and negative.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 8, 2013 03:29PM)
Another small, and I hope non-inflammatory, point is that Vinny has twice said he finds the ambitious card "boaring". Taking that to mean tedious rather than porcine, maybe it's not the best routine to be offering tips on?

I posted Tommy Wonder's routine on page one. I can't really see that as boring, but fair ***** to those who do. I wouldn't have posted a link to Daryl's 18,000 phase ACR, because that, folks, is really quite boring IMHO.