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Topic: Authority
Message: Posted by: maps (Mar 12, 2013 10:34AM)
Hi fellow christians,I am sharing on the subject of spiritual authority and wonder if anyone has an effect that can further drive the point in?
Any help will be appreciated.Thanks!
Message: Posted by: Stephon Johnson (Mar 12, 2013 10:52AM)
Hey there maps!
Terminology and meaning within different denominations vary. Expound a bit on what you mean, and perhaps scripture verses you are using as reference.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Mar 12, 2013 04:56PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-12 11:52, Stephon Johnson wrote:
Hey there maps!
Terminology and meaning within different denominations vary. Expound a bit on what you mean, and perhaps scripture verses you are using as reference.
[/quote]

Indeed they do and in some bodies of Christianity (three specifically), the Bible is not the sole authority. I would start by asking what the phrase actually means. In terms of "authority" there IS only One True Authority and that is God Himself obviously. That said, we as Christians do have sources to which we turn which we consider authoritative including but not limited to: Holy Scriptures, creeds (for many but not all Christian bodies), Holy Tradition (for three or maybe four Christian bodies), The Didache (not too well known unfortunately), etc., etc.

In fact Stephon's excellent answer beautifully addresses the thorny problem of authority for it is the same question that has caused so many schisms, splits, heresies, and Heaven knows what else. I would offer this as an addition to Stephon's remark. Imagine this scenario: in a room you have (and I am picking some at random) a Roman Catholic priest, an Eastern Orthodox priest, a Lutheran minister, a Southern Baptist minister, a Pentecostal, a United Methodist, a Wesleyan Methodist, and an Anglican priest. You would pose this question to these spiritual guides. Do you think you would get the same answer? I would offer that you would get some similar answers but, there would not be a complete consensus. Compounding the problem is the fact that one would not take the solipsistic view that his/her own person is the spiritual authority.

So, perhaps focusing on the one aspect ALL would agree on, that is, that God is spiritual authority would be a firm foundation. The differences among bodies is born out of interpretation and all will claim legitimacy so, getting bogged down in such things could be perilous for the purposes of gospel magic. So, the BEST Scripture cite to me for this would be St. John 14:6

+In Christ,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Stephon Johnson (Mar 12, 2013 05:58PM)
I think an excellent example of Jesus authority is given in the Gospels of the Roman Centurion approaching Jesus to heal his servant. When Jesus agreed to go to his house to heal the servant, the centurion said "I am not worthy to come to you, or that you should enter my house." So he asked Jesus to merely "say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to one, 'Go' and he goes; and to another, 'come' and he comes; and to my servant, 'Do this' and he does it."
I think you could cite some other verses that clearly point to Jesus' complete authority over all things, and then maybe use this story in particular as the basis of a TORN AND RESTORED type of effect where the pieces of the destroyed object are placed into something across the platform from you, and it is restored merely by the command from afar. Just food for thought.
Message: Posted by: maps (Mar 12, 2013 07:54PM)
Ok sori for not being specific.It's about Jesus authority and how He delegated the authority to us by asking us to make disciples,heal the sick,cast out demons etc...
Message: Posted by: Stephon Johnson (Mar 12, 2013 09:35PM)
Ah, there it is. Thanks. I am of the Reformed Faith (RCUS), so I must bow out and allow others to provide you with material you are seeking.
Blessings to you maps!
Message: Posted by: maps (Mar 13, 2013 11:08AM)
Thanks Vlad and Stephon for taking time to to read and your valuable input.Much appreciated!
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Mar 13, 2013 03:10PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-12 20:54, maps wrote:
Ok sori for not being specific.It's about Jesus authority and how He delegated the authority to us by asking us to make disciples,heal the sick,cast out demons etc...
[/quote]

VERY good topic and indeed so very important! You have a lot of fertile ground to work from. I would offer that The Great Commission is transformative and Stephon, though you are of the Reformed Protestant tradition my brother, that Great Commission applies to all Christians. Remember that Christ told His disciples that he came to make them fishers of men. So, Maps, if you think of the Great Commission and what we have learned as well from Acts and the Epistles of St. Paul as transformative, you might want to think of a presentation that focuses on a transformation. Just a thought or two to get you going.

+In Christ,
Vlad

PS: Stephon my brother, please understand that my statement was not meant to berate you but rather to encourage you as a child of God as we all are to not step back. Christ told us not to hide our light under a bushel.
Message: Posted by: Stephon Johnson (Mar 13, 2013 03:53PM)
Vlad, I think you misunderstood my statement. I agree, whole heartedly that The Great Commission applies to ALL Christians. We are to preach the Gospel in season and out to ALL men. God will use the seed sown to either soften or harden men's hearts to draw them to repentance and faith as His elect; or to bring greater condemnation on them in the day of Judgement.
To God Alone be the Glory!
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Mar 14, 2013 08:53PM)
There are many written works by Christians. Who decides what has authority outside of God's word?
Message: Posted by: Stephon Johnson (Mar 14, 2013 09:52PM)
Absolutely Danny! "Sola Scriptura" - God's Word alone has authority!
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Mar 15, 2013 05:37AM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-14 22:52, Stephon Johnson wrote:
Absolutely Danny! "Sola Scriptura" - God's Word alone has authority!
[/quote]

http://vintage.aomin.org/SANTRAN.html

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

The second link is especially interesting as it is written by a former Church of the Nazarene pastor.

These are long reads and yes, you will need your Bible. ;)

DISCLAIMER: The pronouncement was made about sola scriptura being the sole authority. My replies in the form of two very detailed articles are in NO way an attempt to proseletyze.

+In Christ,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Mar 15, 2013 11:21AM)
I'm not here to debate you Vlad. We are of different beliefs. Neither one of us went into great deal just to prove you wrong. You should know by now that argueing and debating such issues here is futile and only leads to further disruptions. It is never used to correct a brother, but to prove one self right over another. It never bares good fruit but only causes bitterness. I am not here for that. You obviously are trying to proseletyze, because you went to great lengths to do it. I appreciate your input, and respect your opinion on the matter. But I must bow out before this once again becomes about proving oneself as being right, and the other person being wrong. I see no gratification in it. God speed! :)
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Mar 15, 2013 04:03PM)
Danny,

I don't want to debate either...but just out of curiosity: If you believe that Scripture is the SOLE authority, then that teaching ought to be found in Scripture. Could you please give me some guidance as to exactly where that teaching can be found?
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Mar 15, 2013 05:09PM)
Thank you for the question Mike. I'll pm you with my answer, but I will pose my question I asked earlier. Who decides what is authoritive outside of God's written word?
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Mar 15, 2013 07:44PM)
My answer to you (naturally) would be that Jesus founded a Church 2,000 years ago. He gave the keys to the kingdom to one man (giving HIM the ultimate authority in the absence of Christ. There is only ONE man now who is the unbroken successor to St. Peter...he is now called Francis. He has that same authority, given by Christ, and handed down through the Apostolic Succession.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Mar 15, 2013 08:28PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-15 12:21, Danny Kazam wrote:
I'm not here to debate you Vlad. We are of different beliefs. Neither one of us went into great deal just to prove you wrong. You should know by now that argueing and debating such issues here is futile and only leads to further disruptions. It is never used to correct a brother, but to prove one self right over another. It never bares good fruit but only causes bitterness. I am not here for that. You obviously are trying to proseletyze, because you went to great lengths to do it. I appreciate your input, and respect your opinion on the matter. But I must bow out before this once again becomes about proving oneself as being right, and the other person being wrong. I see no gratification in it. God speed! :)
[/quote]

Danny,

All due respect but if someone makes the statement that Sola Scriptura is the ONLY authority, tyhat is clearly a belief and a viewpojnt held only by a specific body of Christianity, that is to say Protestantism. As far as I know Danny, there is nothing at all wrong with non-Protestant Christians answering a Protestant statement which was said with authority. Perhaps you don't know about other non-Prorestant Christians, but, I take issue with you explicitly accusing me of proseltyzing. Orthodox do NOT proseletyze. As to your "God speed" Danny., I gelt that oo was rather uncharitable. All due respect brother in Christ, but, The Good News is NOT just for Protestants to share. So providiong links to the history of Sola scriptura is now amn attempt to gain members for Orthodoxy? You are off base sir, but I will tell you what, I will take your God speed - I get the hint, and if you and others are so close minded to actually consider that just MAYBE there ARE problems with that invented doctrine, then, I will bow out of this forum which privileges only certain bodies of Christianity - specifically 23,000 protestant denominations whose AUTHORITY comes from Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli and no two denominations can agree!

You, brother have borne false witness by your accusation.

You have your wish Danny: one less Apostolic Christian to upset the apple cart. Pardon me for providing a bit of history.

You are in my prayers.

+In Christ,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Mar 15, 2013 09:08PM)
Wow, I have to admit that I am very hurt by what you just said. I am extremely sorry that you feel that strongly about me. This is why I will no longer argue on the forum about who is right and who is wrong. I would rather try to understand why someone believes what they believe instead of making hurtful accusations about a brother openly and disrespectfully. However, I am sure you have your reasons for doing it.

Again, my sincere apologies. I see no gratification in any of this. I only meant positive things when I said God speed, and I thought I was being very kind and respectful with how I said it.

I don't think I can apologize enough, so please except my sincere apology. I would be more than willing to hear why you believe the Bible is not the sole authority if you are willing to communicate via PM. I like to believe I have an open mind.
Message: Posted by: themagiciansapprentice (Mar 16, 2013 05:28AM)
As this is a MAGIC FORUM how about a few ideas for the Op??

the most important thing to me about this topic is that Jesus taught us / gave us His spiritual authority

so how about a blendo in a Wonder Box (Duane Laflin) taking all the wrong things in the World and working to make them better
(red= mad, green = envy, blue = sad, yellow = been had) with a Patter about Jesus leading and we 2000 years later follow with his spiritual authority and can do so prayerfully
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Mar 16, 2013 07:50AM)
You could probably achieve a similar effect with Kandu's Komedy Karton by Jef Eaton. This would also add some comedy by-play, which genuinely gets the kids rolling. I had one little girl on stage with me a few months ago that was laughing so hard I thought she was going to pee her pants.

Of course, when kids get laughing, they enjoy themselves. When they enjoy themselves, they pay attention. When they pay attention, they.....well, you get the point!

[quote]
On 2013-03-16 06:28, themagiciansapprentice wrote:
As this is a MAGIC FORUM how about a few ideas for the Op??

the most important thing to me about this topic is that Jesus taught us / gave us His spiritual authority

so how about a blendo in a Wonder Box (Duane Laflin) taking all the wrong things in the World and working to make them better
(red= mad, green = envy, blue = sad, yellow = been had) with a Patter about Jesus leading and we 2000 years later follow with his spiritual authority and can do so prayerfully
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Mar 16, 2013 10:08AM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-15 20:44, Mike Maturen wrote:
My answer to you (naturally) would be that Jesus founded a Church 2,000 years ago. He gave the keys to the kingdom to one man (giving HIM the ultimate authority in the absence of Christ. There is only ONE man now who is the unbroken successor to St. Peter...he is now called Francis. He has that same authority, given by Christ, and handed down through the Apostolic Succession.
[/quote]

Mike, thanks so much for your answer! It's been a blessing conversing with you.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Mar 16, 2013 10:10AM)
"How wonderful it is, how pleasant, for God's people to live together in harmony!" - Psalm 133:1 (Good News Translation)

Now if we could only agree on the version! :winker:

Terry
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Mar 16, 2013 10:14AM)
LOL Terry! ;)


[quote]
On 2013-03-16 11:10, Terry Holley wrote:
"How wonderful it is, how pleasant, for God's people to live together in harmony!" - Psalm 133:1 (Good News Translation)

Now if we could only agree on the version! :winker:

Terry
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Mar 16, 2013 10:17AM)
Terry:

Just to satisfy the Catholic among us, here it is from the Douay-Rheims Bible:

1Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell in unity.
Message: Posted by: maps (Mar 17, 2013 02:28AM)
There's so much to learn from everyone.
I ended up doing the spelling bee using the word RECLAIM and using each letter to represent a word.
Finally turning it around to reveal the word MIRACLE.
Thank you everyone for your time.