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Topic: Expanded Shell according to Bobo
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Apr 27, 2013 10:20PM)
I am working on shelled coin stuff and when I start to create routines for my act I always refresh myself on the basics. I was reading the shell section in Bobo's and I think that in it's original incarnation, the expanded shell is obsolete.

The original purpose of the expanded shell was to allow the magician to borrow the coins for his/her effect and secretly adding the shell to make impossible magic.

2013. We use coins that are well over 100 years old and no one carries them in their pockets anymore.

50 or 60 years ago Slydini could do an awesome coins through table with borrowed silver dollars. Today you can get quarters.

is simply an observation but if you are ordering from the custom guys then you should probably get unexpanded shell with eemilled coins.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Apr 27, 2013 10:27PM)
IMHO your determination of "the original purpose" is incomplete.
Message: Posted by: vampiro (Apr 28, 2013 01:14AM)
I think Bobo was more right than many coin men may think today. If a coin is something laymen have never seen or heard about,
it is back to the problem of magicians childhood fantasies and their childish toys. Magic has become more free from plastic gaffs
and stupid plastic gimmicks over the past 20 years. In coins, we could use Bobo's philosophy at least--we should at least be using things the customers use or at least have seen before (half dollars or eisenhower dollars)...
It is time magicians rid themselves of ideas of notions of childish special toys which they call "special coins"...
Magic is magic when we use things which at least appear normal, as Bobo was obviously on to. Bobo was ahead of his time, and ahead of this time,
when magicians justify childish and different coins which laymen have never heard of.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Apr 28, 2013 01:18AM)
Couldn't disagree more.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Apr 28, 2013 02:57AM)
I routinely perfom for people who have never seen a 50 cent piece or an Eisenhower Dollar (or even know who Eisenhower was. So unless you want to limit your coin magic to quarters, nickels and dimes. You're going to have to use not commonly recognised coins. IUf you are going to use these uncommon coins you might as well use silver dollars as they just handle so much better and look cooler.

Magic is also magic when we use strange and curious artifacts infused with mystery and oddity.
Message: Posted by: Slartibartfaust (Apr 28, 2013 03:19AM)
No one feels that unknown automatically telegraphs "magical" to the audience?
works for me
I mean proper kit not plastic or fakey cr** in terms of coins


my 2 loonies

S
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Apr 28, 2013 08:51AM)
I think I would always get an expanded [ . I like the idea that the shell will fit any coin, yours or anyone else's.

As to silver dollars, yeah, probably no one walks around with them in their pockets anymore much but that's OK I suppose. I never ask people for coin from their pockets, I always pull out my own and it never seems to be as big a deal as some might speak of. I typically don't use gaffs much so letting people see the coins is never a problem. I seriously don't think people pay as much attention to it as is talked about. I always feel that the magi steers the interaction and the specs buy into whatever you set up for the most part as the situation. All the rest is just stuff going on in your head as to what you think others might be thinking, which they typically aren't. I don't know but I do this stuff all the time and specs basically see what I show them as to coins, never a problem as to what they are, what dates, are they real, etc. I'm just sayin' but nowadays as to these gaff coins, they are made so deceptively well, it is hard to believe that anyone would suspect a trick coin with proper handling, not unless you show it to them.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Apr 28, 2013 08:55AM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-27 23:27, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
IMHO your determination of "the original purpose" is incomplete.
[/quote]

My determination of the original purpose is not in this thread at all. What I stated was what Bobo said about the expanded shell, and I quote: "Although the old style shell and cut down half are still being used, the expanded shell is by far the most popular. The reason for this is that practically every trick that can be done with the old style set can be performed with the modern expanded shell. By employing the expanded shell the magician can borrow the needed coins and secretly add the shell to one of them. At the end of the routine the shell is secretly removed and the money returned without anyone being the wiser."

Can you explain to me how I misinterpreted that?

And if you plan to make statements like the above why don't you also make an attempt to enlighten the rest of us with your greater knowledge instead of attempting to discredit someone else's ideas without any reference in a poor attempt to make yourself smarter or better or more sagely?
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (Apr 28, 2013 09:19AM)
In today's world, Morgan dollars and Peace dollars aren't oddities. QVC and other home shopping networks sell them frequently and coin collecting is one of the most popular hobbies in the world. I use Morgan's pretty much exclusively and I've never seen a quizical look on any one's face when I take them out. In fact, quite the opposite. Sometimes they say " Wow, silver dollars".
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 28, 2013 09:40AM)
Regarding expandeds, I have a Johnson quarter, Kennedy Half (tails), English Penny and Eisenhower dollar. You're right, if you want to borrow the coins, you'll have to use quarters. No problem! Johnson makes an AWESOME quarter shell!

Doug
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Apr 28, 2013 11:43AM)
IMHO the expanded gaff permits more flexibility in method construction - one size fits all versus just-so arrangements.
IIRC this opinion came when exploring the tricks in the Hoffmann More Magic book.
I believe this kind of thinking informed Vernon's take on the transposition using a Chinese coin.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Apr 28, 2013 02:20PM)
I have always solved this problem by passing out a basket containing many coins of various sized and origin (poker chips too). People love to explore and play with them. Then I "borrow back" one I need or allow a spectator to choose. I perform with what I get or direct the selection by saying something like, "I need a copper coin a bit bigger than a quarter -- yes, that will do. Can everyone see it?" Then I add a [ or do a Utility Switch for my gaffed coin and go to work. At the end I can return the coin(s) to the basket. Over time I have come to love coin effects performed in a spectator's hands -- easier to accomplish because of the trust involved with allowing them to handle my valuable coins.

I have never had anyone ask why I have such a collection of coins or ask to examine anything. I can also select a Volunteer Assistant by observing how they handle the coins and basket.

In my Medieval Camp Strolling days I would have many objects in the basket besides coins and allow spectator selection to direct my performance. The attitude that I can perform magic with anything greatly enhances audience connection and rapport. In the "Story told after" I used "their coin."
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 28, 2013 03:28PM)
Hey! I just did a quick Coins Across for my maintenence guy in my buidling! "Wow...you got 'trick coins' or something there!"

Huh?

I asked him, "What is a 'trick' coin?" He said, "You know, those squirting nickles and stuff." Ha! He has no idea what a 'trick coin' is! That is good. I let him look the coins over, dropping each one on the table, listening to the "ring" of the coin. "Nope these are the real deal alright! I have NO freaking clue!"

I did one coin through the table adding the shell back. He freaked! I love it! :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: videoman (May 2, 2013 05:54PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-28 10:40, Dougini wrote:
Regarding expandeds, I have a Johnson quarter, Kennedy Half (tails), English Penny and Eisenhower dollar. You're right, if you want to borrow the coins, you'll have to use quarters. No problem! Johnson makes an AWESOME quarter shell!

Doug
[/quote]

Hey Doug, I think it's too risky to even try to borrow a quarter now in the US. Too many variations these days. I got a quarter back as change the other day and it caught my eye because it was gleaming so bright and looked brand new, then I noticed it was a different design from anything I had seen before. Certainly would not have matched my Johnson shell.
Bill
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (May 2, 2013 05:56PM)
In my experience, no one is looking at the design that closely unless you specifically point it out for some reason.
A quarter is a quarter until you give them reason to suspect otherwise.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 6, 2013 05:04PM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-02 18:56, Andrew Zuber wrote:
In my experience, no one is looking at the design that closely unless you specifically point it out for some reason.
A quarter is a quarter until you give them reason to suspect otherwise.
[/quote]

Agreed.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (May 6, 2013 05:31PM)
I have found that they just think they are OLD coins!! That I got from my Gran pa! As Al baker Said" Don't Run when no one is Chasing You" !

And as far a Bobo's goes No one carry's Half's These days!SOOOO I dare you to go up to ANYONE AKA Layman! And borrow Four Half's!!! :)
Message: Posted by: Daz Buckley (May 15, 2013 11:19PM)
Try working outside of the US people. Talk about over-thinking things. I work in Australia, use US coins almost exclusively( including a [, and I've never worked with borrowed coins. My Kennedy halves are a talking piece in themselves to my audiences,and you know what ? They are solid chunks of metal. that's what makes the magic amazing when it happens. Having odd coins ( to what they usually see )just gives me a reason to have them inspect the coins.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (May 16, 2013 12:32AM)
Yea When I went To Japan Most of the guys there where using U.S. Half's :)
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 16, 2013 08:31AM)
I don't remember when I started doing this, but now, I have a handful of different coins. I put them on the table. Let them look them over. If I have a half dollar expanded, I ask them to pick out four half dollars, etc...

Seems to take the heat off a bit...

Doug
Message: Posted by: videoman (May 16, 2013 01:33PM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-02 18:56, Andrew Zuber wrote:
In my experience, no one is looking at the design that closely unless you specifically point it out for some reason.
A quarter is a quarter until you give them reason to suspect otherwise.
[/quote]

That's true and I agree, but I suppose it all depends on what you are doing and how you are doing it.
I was referring to an example where you are borrowing quarter(s) and then ringing in a shell or another gaff.

So if you are saying the quarters do not need to match in that case, then I must respectfully disagree.
They do not need to match EXACTLY in regards to date and age, etc.
But to try and use a state quarter when your shell is an eagle quarter is not giving your audience enough credit IMHO.
They look significantly different and even most non-magicians will instantly recognize that.
But if you can get away with it then more power to ya.

Years back I used to be able to borrow a quarter and then perform a cig thru quarter using a small pencil that fit perfectly, by simply switching their coin for the gaffed one.
But nowadays the likelihood of getting a quarter that does not match my gaff is too high so I have stopped borrowing the coin. Which really diminishes the impact of the trick.

But if you are saying I can still use their coin even if it does not match my gaff as long as I don't point out the difference, then I'd like to see you try that 5 times and see how successful you are.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (May 16, 2013 02:44PM)
I worked at magic masters and did bill thru quarter about 15 times per day. We had a Johnson gaff and borrowed the quarter. Sometimes I got state quarters and other times Eagles and was never caught. In my experience if you are a couple feet away they can't tell because the details are too small plus there is shock value.
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (May 19, 2013 04:36PM)
I need to add that the type of scenario I described above only works in a professional setting. What I mean by that is that if you borrow a coin from your good friend at work, whom you talk to every day and have lunch with and buy gifts for, then it ain't gonna work. If you are in a professional setting where you are borrowing the coin from a spectator, the rules change.

I have commented on this before but I will restate it a bit here. The rules are totally different for a professional magician and the amateur. Unfortunately I believe that this comes partly from respect for your abilities as a magi. Your close friends and family feel like they know you are tricking them and search out your methods. Interestingly, I have found that this attitude has changed as I have transitioned from hobbyist to money making pro.

It also has a little bit to do with the difference between performing a trick and performing a show.
Message: Posted by: CarpetShark (May 26, 2013 07:49PM)
Interesting thread. Fwiw I agree with those who believe any coin can be used for magic, whether it is an 'ordinary' 25c piece, or a silver clad medallion. If the audience responds negatively to the use of weird looking coins, why not just let them handle the coins as Funway does? Makes sense to me... Besides, there are many great looking coins out there that just beg to be used to enhance specific routines, for ex. a copper clad Morgan copy, or a pair of silver/gold chinese coinc...that sort of thing.

Daz made a good point, in that not everyone lives/works in the Excited States (no insult intended!). American halves are not common anywhere else..

just my 2 2nies worth
Message: Posted by: videoman (May 27, 2013 01:38AM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-26 20:49, CarpetShark wrote:

American halves are not common anywhere else..

just my 2 2nies worth
[/quote]

They are not common in the US either. They might as well be a foreign coin because they are foreign to most folks in the USA, especially young ones. Most kids under 20 have never seen one. Although I should add that most folks here are at least aware of their existence. But you could go decades without getting one back in change.
I was in Paris recently talking to the young guy behind the counter at a local magic shop. I was telling him that the about the only folks in the US that have half dollars are magicians. He was very surprised to hear that. I think many magicians outside the US believe that half dollar coins are common here.
Message: Posted by: videoman (May 27, 2013 01:46AM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-19 17:36, Gr8gorilla wrote:
I need to add that the type of scenario I described above only works in a professional setting. What I mean by that is that if you borrow a coin from your good friend at work, whom you talk to every day and have lunch with and buy gifts for, then it ain't gonna work. If you are in a professional setting where you are borrowing the coin from a spectator, the rules change.

I have commented on this before but I will restate it a bit here. The rules are totally different for a professional magician and the amateur. Unfortunately I believe that this comes partly from respect for your abilities as a magi. Your close friends and family feel like they know you are tricking them and search out your methods. Interestingly, I have found that this attitude has changed as I have transitioned from hobbyist to money making pro.

It also has a little bit to do with the difference between performing a trick and performing a show.
[/quote]

Right, and in a professional setting I agree with you, not to mention that a magic shop setting is a different scenario altogether and should really be in it's own category IMO.
I was referring to an amateur or more of an impromptu scenario. But this has made me reconsider this and maybe in the case of a quarter it's not such a big deal. I have gotten a lot bolder with my magic as I've gotten older. So maybe I'll start borrowing quarters again and see how it goes.
Message: Posted by: NateReeves (May 27, 2013 10:27PM)
I think people know what a coin is so they don't really suspect anything when we have half dollars. They probably know someone who collects coins or at least have heard of that sort of thing. A coin is a coin to them; your half dollar could easily be their quarter.
Message: Posted by: funsway (May 28, 2013 02:58AM)
On borrowing a quarter or small coin. Rather than taking "their offered coin" that might have some identity such as a State, have a spectator hold out handful of change with no indication of what you need. Then "pick up" a quarter -- actually your own palmed one. It can be your gaff or switched for one -- and the coin you return to them later does not have to be the same one.

When you say, "please lend me quarter" you are asking them to inspect it to some decree. When you poke about in a pile and extract a coin it is still apparently "borrowed" but never identified.

Maybe it's time to write an eBook on effect using Quarters or other small coins.
Message: Posted by: videoman (May 28, 2013 07:39PM)
Funsway, that is a very good idea. I like it.
Thanks, Bill