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Topic: I guess I'm just lazy
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Jul 14, 2013 11:48AM)
It's a bright sunny Sunday and I'm not at Wally World.

By rights, I should be on Thayer St. doing magic.

Except at 11:30 it was already 92 degrees and;

one, I don't think anybody's going to want to stand in the sun to watch a magic show.

two, I don't want to stand in the sun putting ON a magic show. (And I'd be out there longer than they'd be watching.)

Well, I've got Friday off this week. Let's see what happens then.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Jul 14, 2013 05:15PM)
Turns out Friday should be just like today, but I can wait until sundown (or start late afternoon) and being that it's Friday night, there should be people out.
Message: Posted by: MagiCol (Jul 14, 2013 06:52PM)
Ed, I wouldn't say it was laziness. You're working to the conditions. The weather just has to be lived with - it's your call, based on sensibility, to perform or not. Another aspect of whether to work or not is our personal situation. Sometimes we need a break, or family matters are more important at the time, or something else is more important to us. Maybe we feel obliged to work because we need the income, the experience, or whatever.
I'm thinking of going out tomorrow, Tuesday, mid-winter and temperature expected to be 14C or 58F and sunny. I may change my mind because being on the street for a couple of hours in the cold may be too uncomfortable for me [my hands!] Here it's the school holidays and tomorrow is the day the government pays out support money to "beneficiaries" [who may be out shopping for the day with that burst of money]. So I'm hoping there'll be more parents with kids on the streets for my Magic Show and balloon twisting.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Jul 14, 2013 07:23PM)
I guess there is a variable to the laziness in question. Is it a spot you busk at that is popular and you may lose as a result of taking a couple to a few days possibly off? if not, I would certainly stay out of the heat if nothing else for health reasons. If it is a hotspot and very desired, maybe shoot for a short apperance and go home early if no interest but at least you "marked your teritorry " so to speak .
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Jul 15, 2013 04:52AM)
Thayer St. is a college area. If you've been in NYC, it's the closest thing we in Providence have to a "Greenwich Village" area. There's a steady amount of foot traffic, but most of it keeps moving.

Magic-col, good luck with the 58 degree temps. I'm not used to thinking about the other side of the belt and how it's winter pretty much where you are!
Message: Posted by: MagiCol (Jul 16, 2013 12:48AM)
Thanks, ed. Yes, winter here. I decided not to go, anticipating a cold day. I also had a cold. Cold all around!
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Jul 16, 2013 09:42AM)
Hey Ed, after a month of cold wet German summer, I´m enjoying this dry East Coast heat!
I´m IN New York City.
`Couching´ in the Village.
Walking, wandering, smelling the streets.
The day Streets aren´t play-ible,... in my eyes,
but the evenings(!),
...and no one IS!
gott, this can ruin a vacation.

".. low down,
isn´t it a pity,
the days,
can´t be like the nights;
in the summer,
in the city."
John Sebastian

enjoying the bagels
and dill pickels,
gallagher
Message: Posted by: smullins (Jul 16, 2013 10:35AM)
I was out there Strolling on Saturday Ed and it was HOT in Boston. Just humid and gross but people stopped and kept watching.
Message: Posted by: Motley Mage (Jul 16, 2013 05:51PM)
Ed, I thought that was one of the perks of busking: work when you need, work went you want. "Flexible scheduling with variable payscale."
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Jul 16, 2013 06:27PM)
[quote]
On 2013-07-16 01:48, MagiCol wrote:
Thanks, ed. Yes, winter here. I decided not to go, anticipating a cold day. I also had a cold. Cold all around!
[/quote]

It's cool. If YOU already have a cold, you don't want to be standing out in 45-50 degreet weather.
No sense of dedication is worth pnumonia. [sp]
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Jul 16, 2013 06:29PM)
[quote]
On 2013-07-16 10:42, gallagher wrote:
Hey Ed, after a month of cold wet German summer, I´m enjoying this dry East Coast heat!
I´m IN New York City.
`Couching´ in the Village.
Walking, wandering, smelling the streets.
The day Streets aren´t play-ible,... in my eyes,
but the evenings(!),
...and no one IS!
gott, this can ruin a vacation.

".. low down,
isn´t it a pity,
the days,
can´t be like the nights;
in the summer,
in the city."
John Sebastian

enjoying the bagels
and dill pickels,
gallagher
[/quote]

I envy you. The last time I was in NYC, it was for less than a day and I spent THAT at the NYC Comicon so I didn't get to see a lot of the city itself.
I miss NY. I have missed NY since 1984 when I moved back to RI.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Jul 20, 2013 09:44AM)
99 degrees yesterday. I thought of waiting until nightfall when it would cool down. It cooled down to a whole 94 degrees by sundown. I stayed home. This weekend, I have to work. -sigh-
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 8, 2013 10:07PM)
It was supposed to rain today, (Thursday) and some isolated showers tomorrow morning. I could live with that. It didn't rain today and NOW they're saying it's going to rain all day Friday. Well, maybe I can salvage Saturday from noon to about six (I already promised my kid I'd take him to Waterfire and no, you can't work a Waterfire without permission and permission includes providing insurance information.)
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Aug 9, 2013 07:37AM)
Ed remember the old busker's phrase: "It's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission." That's the reason I work without a table, if I'm busted I say "SORRY, didn't know" close by pouch and quit. By the time I get told to stop I usually have made between $50 to $100, so I don't care.
Message: Posted by: troppobob (Aug 9, 2013 10:35AM)
G'day Paddy
I like your style.
I did just that at Seaport Village San Diego a few days ago.
Bob Latta (aka Troppo Bob)
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 9, 2013 02:04PM)
Paddy, I understand your idea, but I'm a guy who's been trained since childhood to follow the rules. You should come to Waterfire, tell me how you do. (Let me know ahead of time, I want to see you perform.)

BTW, yes it IS pouring. Not only is tomorrow Waterfire, but it's also Foo Fest (A festival developed to promote AS2000 an alternate theater group.)

Of course, being Rhode Island, "alternate" means "US (AS2000), the Nazo Puppets and who ever WE decide is acceptable to perform at OUR festival."

http://www.as220.org/foofest2013/

http://www.partyearth.com/boston/festivals/as220-foo-fest-1/as220-foo-fest-2013-1-1/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjVmMJ6Ix5o

This should give you a taste.
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Aug 10, 2013 07:58AM)
Ed, show me ANY successful person who followed the rules! I am not saying to break the rules at all, just bend them in your favour. Rabbi Hillel said "if we don't watch out for ourselves who will?" GO DO IT! Then when an authority figure says you can't you quit and apologize, claiming you didn't know the rules. BTW, did you read or know ALL the rules of the fest? Of course not, no one could know all the silly crap so you are not at any time lying. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity is forever, NO! I am NOT saying anyone is stupid just pointing out that we are all ignorant of all the festival rules, so until the cure my ignorance I'm home free.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 24, 2013 03:31PM)
Then I guess I'm just going to have to live without being a "successful" person because I just can't.
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Aug 25, 2013 04:53AM)
Ed, you CAN, you choose not to
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 25, 2013 05:17AM)
Physically, yes. Physcially, anybody can break the rules.
But you're right. I choose NOT to break the rules.
I choose to respect someone else's rules at their function.
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Aug 25, 2013 12:20PM)
Ed it is NOT "breaking the rules!!!!!" If someone tells me to stop and I continue, THAT is breaking the rules. However if I do not know the rules (OK I didn't ask what they were so I obviously could not know them) I am not breaking them. Then when informed, I am no longer ignorant so I follow them like the "true cross." Meantime I made a couple hundred dollars. He11 even the United States Military preaches exactly what I am saying, they call it "don't ask, don't tell."
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 25, 2013 01:37PM)
May I join this debate?
I find this interesting partly due to the fact so many people are bound by the ideal that they must follow the laws of the Land! If one was to make a rule that you are no longer to express your opinion on open forums would you obey? Rules are not laws and laws and can be very unjust, hear lies a problem. You have those who will risk nothing to be seen to do the right thing and those who will lay down their life in order to save a fellow man. I think their is a line we draw and come push and shove we will all cross it. So I conclude rules are their to be broken.
Message: Posted by: writeall (Aug 25, 2013 03:23PM)
I didn't realize one had to be a scofflaw to be a busker.
Or is it only some rules, the rules you don't like that are "their[sic] to be broken?"

How do you feel about the rule on free speech in public that so many access to ply their trade? I assume, when the cop breaks the rule and shuts you down, it's all fine and dandy? Or, is that one of the rules we like?

There's a flip side to this. Following the rules gives you power that ignoring them does not. If you have permission, or a license/permit, you gain legitimacy and protection. Bet you don't mind the "rules" so much when someone is blaring an amp next to you in a "quiet zone."

Do you really not mind being rousted or is it more a matter of having enough experience to avoid really touchy situations and tickets?

Where's the line?
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 25, 2013 03:56PM)
I need to break down my thoughts as you have seemed to make three points.

I see freedom of speach first to be human right.
If they have made that into a law then they are bound by that law.
I agree with you if the police where to shut me down then they are breaking that law.
As same much if they try to enforce a licence to perform I don't see the diffrence?
Message: Posted by: writeall (Aug 25, 2013 05:24PM)
Mario,
I was reacting to what I see as a poor general principle - do what you want until/unless someone complains. It's so common, we say it almost without thinking: "It's better to beg forgiveness that ask permission." I'm arguing it really is better to get permission than not.

That works differently for the experienced pros than it does for most. Why? Because you guys already have professional ethics and lines you don't cross. Doubtful I'd find a pro in the middle of the Mall of America without permission, or horning in on someone else's pitch under the same logic. But I might very well start hatting the edge of your crowd before your finale - maybe a hat and a sign saying, "Support the magical arts" - using the same principle.

The hypocrisy, for me, comes in when one set of laws (First Amendment primarily) is used to justify public busking on the one hand and then we want to ignore other laws (soliciting or signage or whatever) and claim ignorance as an excuse. Wouldn't you prefer to know you are covered by local ordinances? I would. In fact, if I took the trouble to get a permit and someone else didn't, I might be tempted to push the issue if there was a conflict. In this latter case, I think following the rules protects us and can support busking.

In the larger picture, there's a range of street activities going on. You've got everything from the aggresive transient begging change to the professional, career busker. There ought to be a difference between those extremes. Knowing and following the rules is one such distinction.

And I'll repeat that this isn't a big deal for experienced pros. You already pretty much know what you can get away with, what you can't and how to handle conflicts. A new guy reading this though? Not so much. And it's much worse for those of us who aren't travelling to new venues much.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 25, 2013 09:56PM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-25 13:20, Paddy wrote:
Ed it is NOT "breaking the rules!!!!!" If someone tells me to stop and I continue, THAT is breaking the rules. However if I do not know the rules (OK I didn't ask what they were so I obviously could not know them) I am not breaking them. Then when informed, I am no longer ignorant so I follow them like the "true cross." Meantime I made a couple hundred dollars. He11 even the United States Military preaches exactly what I am saying, they call it "don't ask, don't tell."
[/quote]

But I do know them. And you should know them before you get involved as well. It would be common courtesy. It would get in the way of your desires, but it would still be the right thing to do.
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 26, 2013 03:59AM)
Writeall
Judgeing by your post I am guessing you don't busk much perhaps not at all?
Not that matters.

Let me help by making a distinction their is a diffrence between private owened shopping malls and the street.

Malls in the USA I know little about but back hear in the UK I would not want to work them with out being paid well.
So that would be my approach.

As far as street it does not matter if you new or old to busking we or learn the same way. For me its not what I can get away with rather what is my human right.

I have used the line "It's easier to apologise than ask for permission." I know a few pitches that's the way it is. IE thoes who don't ask work and thoes who ask don't, Mainly in Spain. You see if you don't ask somtimes they just don't care but if you ask and they say no and then you do any way. Well if they see you now, they will care, I told you your not alowed now your screwed. You see some pitches can work like this for decades, hear you be a idiot to ask. Life just goes on and no one cares.

I think using the line "It's easier to apologise than ask for permission." as a way of just having a go is a bit lame.

My stance is diffrent to this. I will only come under authority if I have broken it. If I am chose to take a stand and an officer says to me I am not allowed to busk hear. I will say officer I would love to conply and work with you, for me to do this it is my leagal right to know what law I am breaking, not rule but law. I am trying to be polite here in the UK and Europe their is no leagle law that can ban busking. Yes I beleave the First Amendment in the US gives you the same right.

Your right about soliciting, begging, sinage you see I don't care about other folks business. As same much as a shopkeeper wont care for mine. What I care about is does the officer no of some law that I know nothing about or could not find? A law he is willing to arrest me on and take me to court over? Does he know of a law that will stand in court?

Let me take this a little further and ask anyone to present us a LAW that will stand in high court?
What is this law because

In all the years I have been busking never have I been presented such a law, rules are not laws?
Message: Posted by: Zuke (Aug 26, 2013 04:40AM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 04:59, Mario Morris wrote:
Writeall
Judgeing by your post I am guessing you don't busk much perhaps not at all?
Not that matters.

[/quote]

In that case why mention it?
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 26, 2013 05:05AM)
Good point Zuke, my point of mentioning it is how we work things out. Their is a big diffrence working this stuff out on the street to the magic Café. A lot of things can be said on the magic Café but on the street its whole diffrent beast. In my mind A statment of fact can be more of a question if its not first hand experianced, their for (as I go on to imply) I am hear to help.
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 26, 2013 05:37AM)
I will further add my experiance in the UK and Europe as a whole a lot cities now welcome buskers as in some year a go it may have been a diffrent expeiance. This is largley due to an understanding that busking is good practise in the street of that city and their is no set law forbiding it. We benerfit from buskers from time passed who did make a stand and eventually educated the city of the benerfits and the law. My hope is this stance will bring about an acceptance of buskers in every city where ever we chose to go.

I don't accept rules that have been made up that are not lawful and leagaly binding. We favour them as a way that city alow us to busk (or not) as if we are to be thankful to them if they do. When in fact their rules are not necessary a true reflection of any laws passed. The bottom line is what is your human right and are you breaking the law?
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 26, 2013 06:00AM)
I hope my frieand Surgei will add to this thread as he is most passionernet about buskers rights in the US. He is an American so he will be more helpful to you and your struggle with the laws of the land. He has been arrested more than once in the US for standing up for his rights in turn as I understand it the Police have with drew their charges when they realised they did not have a leg to stand on.
Message: Posted by: writeall (Aug 26, 2013 12:18PM)
Mario,
It looks like we are talking about two different things. I heartily approve of standing up for your rights and getting laws changed or clarified. This isn't the same as seeing what you can get away with. I think that aggressive buskers who intrude where they aren't wanted (with, "I didn't know" as the excuse) make the rest look bad.

Do you think it's a good idea to encourage new buskers to, "just show up and see" or "do it until you get run off" or whatever, when it comes to fairs, flea markets, and other "controlled" venues? Doesn't that sound like a street magician bothering people lined up for a movie? Contrast this with threads here where responsible people are asking what the rules are in NYC or elsewhere. As a practical matter, would you set up in a place where you knew you weren't allowed, with the idea of grabbing a few bucks and running off? I hope not.

People who take the flack to challenge a law are heroes. They are committed and purposeful. But that's not what's going on when someone crashes a county fair.
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 26, 2013 12:48PM)
For me it is about human rights and I would encourage any one to stand for them.
I would not encourage somone to break the Law but to first find out if their is a law set against them.
In addtion if their is a law we need to ask does that law infringe on a human right.
I now rest my case, funny thing I am going to watch the film Linconln.
All the best
Mario
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Aug 26, 2013 01:03PM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 13:18, writeall wrote:
...Do you think it's a good idea to encourage new buskers to, "just show up and see" or "do it until you get run off" or whatever, when it comes to fairs, flea markets, and other "controlled" venues? Doesn't that sound like a street magician bothering people lined up for a movie? .... But that's not what's going on when someone crashes a county fair.
[/quote]
Is it a good idea to just show up & see? YES!! I am not bothering people at all I am putting on my show by getting attention and getting the crowd to VOLUNTARILY stop to see me. Then if they have forgotten their worries for a few minutes to drop some banknotes in my hat. There is not a thing wrong with doing this anywhere, except on private property. If the authorities stop me I will gladly quit right then and go some other event that will allow it. I have learned that if you ask the answer will be NO! but if they see the show in progress most of the time they will not only allow it but even pay me to be there.

How can you sell your show if people won't bother to look at it.
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 26, 2013 01:15PM)
I agree with you Paddy.
Message: Posted by: Stperformer (Aug 26, 2013 04:19PM)
I'll add my thoughts, not to agree or disagree with anyone, but rather to give a different perspective.

First of all while I am a busker, I work a lot of festivals, lots.
Most of these fests have taken me a huge amount of effort and investment to be able to work as a performer.

I believe it is advantageous to work with the organisers & get their permission rather than 'crash the site'. You don't have to look over your shoulder all the time, and you won't waste your time traveling to a site only to get kicked out. Plus with permission you can often set up right in the middle of the fest giving you the best hats instead of off to the side.


Often it as taken me years to finally get the privilege to perform there.
When someone shows up and crashes the site, often pitching very near me....I'm usually not greatly sympathetic towards them.

I think some of you might be rationalizing here a tad.

When a festival runs in a city, even though it is 'public property', the organizers have obtained and paid for road closures, licenses to run the event, and in effect are leasing the property from the city for their event.

IMHO it's also a misconception that if the organisers see your show and how good it is they will allow you to stay. There is some truth to this and it does happen but generally most event people don't give 2 hoots how good you or your show might be. They have a million other things to take care of and the last thing they need is a rogue performer who could possibly add to their growing lists of problems.

I'm not saying crashing festival is right or wrong. Most of us buskers have done it, myself included.
However I think some of the newer buskers read this and think it is the way to go.....when in reality if they are serious (about busking/street performing in the long run) they should be spending time and effort on developing decent promotional material and people/business skills.

Hopefully this makes some sense.
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 26, 2013 04:40PM)
Makes total sense to me and I agree with 100%
I have crashed festavels before but they are certain festavels that lend them selfs to that.
For example Spanish Ferrias. Other than that I agree with you.

Their are thousands of festavels through out the world.
In Anderlucia alone their is 3500 ferrias each year mental when you think about it.
Festavels like these you will never get on unless you crash them.
Just a big party on the street realy.

On the other hand I to get booked for festavels that has a budget and I would not turn up and and step on performers work.

I like to add it realy depends on the festival. For example in the good old days of Glastonbury that's exactly what you do and it was the norm.
Message: Posted by: writeall (Aug 26, 2013 06:43PM)
I'd be more than happy if Paddy (or many others that post here) showed up at a venue I was in charge of. But the problem is that Paddy and the skilled entertainers aren't the only things in the mix. I certainly wouldn't feel the same if it were a foul-mouthed Elmo in a dirty, homemade suit.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 26, 2013 09:32PM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 17:40, Mario Morris wrote:
Makes total sense to me and I agree with 100%
I have crashed festavels before but they are certain festavels that lend them selfs to that.
For example Spanish Ferrias. Other than that I agree with you.
[/quote]

Out of curiousity, what makes "Spanish Ferrias" lend themselves to being crashed?

For that matter, what's a "Spanish Ferrias?"
Message: Posted by: Magician Shaun (Aug 26, 2013 11:27PM)
If you are on privately owned property you should not just "show up." Flea Markets, festivals, fairs, malls, these things may not all be on private property but they are often private events. Just because a lot of people are there doesn't mean it's OK to "bust in" and start doing your show. Allow me to use an example to put it in perspective.

There are public parks in and around Atlanta where I live. Often times these venues get rented out for events like weddings. A lot of people come to weddings. Does anyone think that it is OK to crash someone's wedding and see if people voluntarily stop and pay you? If you don't what makes any other private event different?

I have found, in contradiction to what Paddy said "I have learned that if you ask the answer will be NO!" that when I ask ahead of time and explain what I do, that most festival organizers want me at their event and always ask me back. I have not been turned down for any event that I have contacted a month or so in advance. It isn't often these folks get people offering to give them hours upon hours of entertainment for free. Usually they pay several hundred dollars for a band or other entertainment for a couple of hours. But if you crash it you may not only never be able to ask, you may ruin it for others. You do not have a "right" to perform at private events. If you did then you could just come do your show in my living room without asking right?
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 27, 2013 01:01AM)
I agree over all with what is being said by every one but as a busker I don't think you should make it a rule for your self.
You need to be open, wise and flexerble. In other words I think you often work this out on the road which festavels can you or you cant work.

For example their are music festavels in some citys that all takes place indoors, book festavels and so on. These kind of festavels don't spill out on to the streets necessarily but may atract thousands of visitors to the city. As for the street business as usual perhaps better hats because of the festavel.

Take for example the Edinburgh fringe the busking sean their was born on the back of festavels. Years ago you would rock up and have go. It is now known as the biggest fringe festavel in the world. They now have a buskers office trying to run things but each year buskers are working diffrent pitches often out side of the duristriction. It all goes to make up this festavel.

So as a busker if you want to have a bit of fun your going to have to be a little open, flexerble and wise.
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Aug 27, 2013 01:22AM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 22:32, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 17:40, Mario Morris wrote:
Makes total sense to me and I agree with 100%
I have crashed festavels before but they are certain festavels that lend them selfs to that.
For example Spanish Ferrias. Other than that I agree with you.
[/quote]

Out of curiousity, what makes "Spanish Ferrias" lend themselves to being crashed?

For that matter, what's a "Spanish Ferrias?"
[/quote]

Spanish Ferrias - Spanish Festvel
Almost evry village, town or city has one in Anderluscia.
Marked by Religous activities a prossesion will start the festavel.

Then the fun begins, food, drink, dance, bull fights, games for children.
Often lasting for a whole week the norm three days.
Spanish Carneys turn up often in mass.

The noise can be mental, Spain wins the awards as Europes noisest city.
Just walk into a Spanish Café to see what I mean, two to three TVs on at the same time often diffrent stations.
With no one watching and every one trying to talk over the TVs, unless the football is on.

Imagine a festavel with been run with this mind set, its going to be loud, you have been warned.
You will need to be able to do your show in spanish or silent, you will need to find your own spot away from the noise which will be impossible, LOL. So you need to find a less noisy place.

Warning - Not all Spanish festavels are workable ie the hats can be crap. I have been shut down before by the police but that's not because of the festaval but because their idots. don't try to set up next to the carneys they will just blow you out. If you find a good one don't tell any one.

What you got to bare in mind is not every festavel is held in th middle of no where. Infact lots of festavels are held in towns where buskers are already working.