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Topic: Would performing a Seance illusion be considered "un-christian"?
Message: Posted by: mikewarner (Nov 25, 2013 11:16AM)
Hi All,

I'm thinking of using a Seance routine in my next show and was wondering if anyone here had any thoughts on whether it's appropriate or not for members of our faith to perform such a thing.

Let me know,

Mike
Message: Posted by: harris (Nov 26, 2013 09:45AM)
Perhaps you could frame it around another concept?
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Nov 26, 2013 12:36PM)
Yeah, Mike...I'm afraid some Christians may be offended. You'll get [i]Bible quotes[/i] thrown at ya for sure... :lol:

Doug
Message: Posted by: J-L Sparrow (Nov 26, 2013 03:57PM)
I wouldn't do a trick involving a séance, or anything to do with fortune tellers. If you still want to do the trick, I'd take Harris' advice and frame it around another concept.

Here in the United States we have a gag toy called a "Magic 8 Ball". It's essentially a pool/billiard ball that can supposedly foretell the future. Since the concept of a billiard ball foretelling the future is such a silly concept, pretty much nobody takes it seriously. I don't know what your trick is about, but maybe you can make it work with a Magic 8 Ball theme, as I don't think anybody would be offended by that (and many would probably find it humorous).

Whatever you go with, if you're still nervous that some people might take offense, you might consider giving out a verbal disclaimer saying that everything you perform is a trick. Themes dealing with mind reading and spirits tend to make people think what you're doing is real, moreso than with "smoke and mirror" tricks. Claiming that what you're doing is just a set of magic tricks tends to put doubters' minds at ease and make them less likely to accuse you of dealing with the occult.
Message: Posted by: mikewarner (Nov 27, 2013 10:11AM)
My understanding is that Bible forbids real magic (assuming there is such a thing), not tricks for entertainment.
I'm sure If I made it clear at the very beginning that the whole show is one big illusion, it shouldn't pose too much of a problem.

Mike
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Nov 27, 2013 10:29AM)
The problem won't be whether or not they believe he is doing "real magic", but in the APPEARANCE of such. If there is a brother or sister who is weak in the faith, or perhaps someone who has left the occult and entered into the Church, you could be potentially causing a real stumbling block.

I would agree with the disclaimer statement...but I was also stay FAR away from any effects that resemble anything occultic.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Nov 27, 2013 10:41AM)
Mike -

Are you planning to do this in a show for a Christian group (for a church), or another type of audience?

If you are performing for a regular (secular) audience, then a simple disclaimer might be enough. From my experience, it would seem that (well-meaning) Christians are more concerned with magic tricks and illusions being accomplished by occultic forces.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Russo (Nov 27, 2013 10:50AM)
Don't know if you could find it, but in a WAY BACK issue of GENII there is a FULL Seance act and how to do it- if your really interested P/M me and I"ll try to get Issue number. - Its pretty eazy and good to use for an exposea(sp??) P.S. the act is one that is done at the Magic Castle- Hollywood. Ralph (russo)Rousseau- Happy THANKSGIVING ALL
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Nov 27, 2013 03:19PM)
Myself, I have learned time and time again...NOT to do magic for religious people. Christian or not. Unless it's sponge bunnies and silks. As much as I am a Christian...I cannot STAND religion! At 58 I have lived long enough to realize the more I learn, the more I realize how much I DON'T know!

Doug
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 27, 2013 03:26PM)
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The reality is that we live in dark times where vampires, zombies, etc are depicted as heroes, cults and occults are popular than ever before. It's a fallen world and we can't be so naive, nor assume that all entertainment is spiritually good for us to either perform or watch.

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

Ephesians 4:22-24
To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Nov 27, 2013 03:55PM)
The only way I can think that it would work would be to frame it as proof that seance's are fake, and you are going to demonstrate that by performing one using tricks. But even then I would not take it seriously, in fact you will probably need to poke fun at the very concept throughout. Even with this idea, I would be very cautious and know a lot about my audience and whether or not they would be ok with the idea.

However, if your audience is a secular audience, then it just comes down to how you feel about it.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 27, 2013 04:26PM)
It comes down to how God feels about it. Although entertainment is a grey area, we should still seek the scriptures. We are after all, bought and paid for by the blood of Christ.
Message: Posted by: mikewarner (Nov 27, 2013 04:45PM)
I perform mostly for secular audiences. My question was really about whether it was acceptable for a Christian to perform something like this.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 27, 2013 05:07PM)
Ask yourself these questions. Why would something not exceptable for a Christian to do in front of other Christians be exceptable in front of non Christians? Are we to only be examples to others of our faith? Should we only be witnesses to only those who are fellow believers, and then go into the world and do the things the world does?
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 27, 2013 05:17PM)
I found this article that I think articulates it better than I. I found it to be very true.

http://www.umdcatholic.org/Northern%20Cross/Media.pdf
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Nov 27, 2013 06:11PM)
Here's my thinking (the rationing behind my earlier post).

When I do a show for a regular audience, I do not feel the need to tell the audience that what I'm doing is just tricks. As a rule, they don't think that what I do is accomplished by supernatural means. No one ever asks me to heal their friend, or pick their lottery numbers for them. They don't think I have real powers. They think it is just tricks and illusions. No one is concerned about me doing a show. Kids and adults try to figure out how it works (this is why a "sucker" trick works in a magic show).

However, when I do a show for a Christian audience in a church, I find the need to tell (or remind) the audience that what I'm doing is just tricks. As a rule, Christians tend to be more sensitive about the issue of magic tricks and illusions. Especially in a church setting. This may come across as a little blunt, but I find Christians to be a little too superstitious. Some are worried about the occult in an over-the-top way. They see supernatural where most non-Christians might see science (again, many non-Christians see a magic trick as just a trick / mystery / puzzle). Now am I saying that there is no such thing as the supernatural?... absolutely not! Am I saying they give a little bit too much credit to Satan and the occult?... yes! (Many of our problems are because of our sinful nature, and not because Satan is controlling us.)

I'm just saying that the audiences and mindsets are different. They think different towards me, and so I think different towards them.

Keep in mind that I have done thousands of shows over the past 35 years, both in the public and in churches. So, I'm just sharing my perspective / experience. Your own may differ.

- Donald

P.S. Personally, I have done a mental epic in some of my shows (mind-reading), but never a seance type of trick. Although I've done that trick in a magic show for a church now and then, I always approach it with caution. However, I don't feel the need to be extra-cautious about doing that in a regular show. That's an example of thinking differently towards different audiences.

BTW, I once read a very clever presentation for a seance type effect. It was a routine by Paul Osborne using a Palanquin Illusion. It was shown empty, and then bells and plates were put inside. Then movement and noise, always opening the curtains to show no one inside. At the very end, the curtains are opened one more time and one or two assistants are produced from the empty illusion. I thought that was a clever presention for that illusion.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 27, 2013 06:41PM)
Hi Donald, I am someone confused. If a church hires you to do a magic show, and are expecting you to perform magic, why do you feel you need to clarify that what you do is just tricks? I am assuming they hired you and you didn't just walk in and start performing tricks.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Nov 27, 2013 06:51PM)
In nearly all of the churches that I've been invited to perform at, between the time that I've been promoted and the day of the show, the pastor has heard from some "concerned" people within the church. They are concerned about the church having a magician, magic show, illusionist, etc. It's not the pastor or church board that is usually concerned -- otherwise they wouldn't have hired me. This is pretty normal. That is why I give the reminder / disclaimer at the beginning of my show in those settings, because of the more sensitive audience.

Surely this must happen for other performers doing gospel shows (or even regular shows) at a variety of churches.

Duane Laflin does a disclaimer in his shows (I think he does it regardless of the audience). "Surprises for the eyes", etc.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: ChrisG (Nov 27, 2013 07:02PM)
I use a disclaimer in every program no matter where I perform. The disclaimer is not for those that hired me, it is for those who believe my performance is more than entertainment. Even with the disclaimer there is almost always someone who believes.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 27, 2013 07:42PM)
I realize we are drfting of topic, but since we are, I have never used a disclaimer, even in churches. Never felt a need to. If the Pastor hires me to perform in the church, and I am available, I go and perform. If the Pastor was to come to me and tell me that some people in the church had an issue with him hiring me as a magician, I would ask if he resolved it by explaining what is that I do. If he tells me no, some still think it's real. One, I would immediately wonder why his congregation does not believe him, and second, why he is still hring me to perform if there are some people in the congregation who have an issue with it. I would have no problem declining the gig. I don't need to clear my conscious before performing for anyone. If I felt some guilt about performing for certain type of people, I would decline.

Cris, you say that even though you make a disclaimer some still believe. Who do you make the disclaimer for? Your sake, or their sake? I ask because it seems your disclaimer fails to put everyone at ease, and I am trying to understand this. I am looking to learn more about this, thanks.

I suppose it's easier for me to decline than perhaps most because I don't need the gig, and I don't want to compromise just for the sake of getting a gig. I am not saying, Donald and Cris, that that is the same for you. I don't know why you still perform even though that is the situation you both are aware of when performing in a church. I'm still someone confused, and fail to see the rational of it. That could just be me. :)

Anyone read the article I linked to?
Message: Posted by: ChrisG (Nov 27, 2013 09:23PM)
Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 27, 2013 10:00PM)
What I don't seem to understand, ( forgive my ignorance) is if the disclaimer doesn't work, or isn't completely effective in easing everyone's mind about what you do is just tricks , what purpose is the disclaimer serving? I am only asking questions to better understand the reasoning of using disclaimers. My apologies for asking, but I was always taught if I don't ask questions how am I to ever learn or understand. Thank you for being kind enough to at least try.
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Nov 27, 2013 10:07PM)
There are some people in the church that will have concerns (about magic shows, magicians, illusions, etc.), and voice them privately to the pastor. The concerned person may or may not approach the performer directly, before the show. In fact, they might not go to the show at all. Or they might intend to go to the show and cause a fuss. The pastor may or may not tell you about people voicing concerns.

But there might be some in the audience who have mild concerns, and still attend. The disclaimer at the beginning is there for those who have mild concerns.

I recall one show where an audience member approached me after the show and told me that he had serious concerns before seeing my show, but he was delighted to discover he was wrong, and after seeing my show he thought that the show was a wonderful evangelism tool.

That disclaimer might have helped to keep him at the show, so he could make up his opinion by seeing the show, instead of having an opinion before-hand because of words he didn't like.

In this case, the person with the serious concerns came to see the show, but that doesn't always happen.

- Donald

P.S. I have several stories about this that I can share privately with you Daniel.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 27, 2013 10:26PM)
Thanks Donald. :) I will message you on FB.
Message: Posted by: Steven True (Nov 28, 2013 03:02AM)
To answer the op Mike I feel that it might show you in a bad light. The reason of a seance is to contact the spirits of the dead, as I understand it. In that I would not do it in any show as some day you may be witnessing to those same people. I say this remembering that Andre' Cole did a, "Walking on Water" illusion and I am sure some people took offence at that. I would say just pray about it and let Jesus guide you in that area. All of our opinions are just that, "opinions". Seek Gods counsel and wait for His answer.

Steven
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Nov 28, 2013 09:34AM)
As Christians, it is important to realize the impact of our behavior on new and non-Christians. I'm pretty liberal. All is not cut & dry, black & white. I have a pretty open mind. However, I have had some REAL experiences that really opened my eyes! One was a Ouija Board. Long story. Know this: I will never, EVER touch another Ouija! Period.

I have performed the effect, "Luna". I did it at my sister's in Boston a year or so ago. Big mistake. I wasn't invited for Thanksgiving this year. My sister from California (a STAUNCH Catholic) was bothered, and her husband thinks I'm possessed! LOL! She lectured me on Satanic behavior, seances, ghosts, etc. She believed my performance was REAL! I tried to tell her it was an act, but no. Nothing I could say would change her mind.

It's infuriating. This is why I believe religion SUCKS! People get all hung up over things that don't matter...preaching this and that, but knowing NOTHING! Treating each other like crap, gossiping, judging and just doing exactly the OPPOSITE of what Jesus spent SO much time and effort to show us! Forgive me, not all are like that. But, enough to make me go, "STOP!!!" Enough!!!

A seance? Me? No. Never. Not in church or anywhere else. Not a good idea. Not for religious reasons either. Folks, there are "doors" you do NOT open. We do not know enough to be responsible for this. There are things in THIS world that are BEYOND our understanding. Things that can physically HURT you! From OUTSIDE this realm. We really have no idea. It is best we DON'T, either!

A Seance Illusion show can be very entertaining, no question. However, it CAN have very unexpected results. There is a reason The Old Testament warned us. They knew! It is imperative to keep that in mind, if you do a Spirit Act.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 28, 2013 10:03AM)
Entertainment is a grey area but scriptures can still teach us what kind of a person we should be. Using the excuse, " It's just entertainment" is no excuse, and even if you use a disclaimer doesn't make it exceptable before God. We have to use the discerning Spirit, and not our own desires or logic.

There are many forms of entertainment I am sure most of us would immediately agree is not good. Gambling, Trophy hunting, pornography, etc. Why are they not exceptable? If a Christian woman said to you that she is a porn star, how would you respond? What if she told you she does a disclaimer at the beginning of her movie that what she does is different than adultry because she is just acting?

The point is, some use "It's just entertainment" as an excuse to do what they want instead of what is right for God. Some use disclaimers to relieve themselves of any guilt and sense of responsability on how others may percieve them.

Some also use a disclaimer because they feel a moral obligation to the brother or sister who may not know the difference and can be a tool to educate a brother or sister in spiritual matters.

I ask questions to better understand, and to see if the person is able to answser why they do what they do with some sense of spiritual understanding.

If I was to use a disclaimer, I would use it as a tool to evangelize, not to put anyone at ease. But, again, that's my opinion, and I have experienced that some here do not share my same views.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Nov 29, 2013 06:09PM)
Wow. Danny. You have some unique insight. Wow. Really, man. You get it. We overlook these things so easily. That's why I read your posts two, maybe three times. At different times.

I fear not only offending a brother or sister, but a secular person, giving them the WRONG impression of Christianity. Having been a radio disc jockey for forty years, I assume roles easily. I can play the act. That's why Magic came so easily.

Magic in a church can really be trouble. This is where discernment is important. The Zombie (for me) was a BIG mistake. That poor lady! ROFL! It was funny...but not really. She believed the floating silver ball was SATANIC! In her tiny mind, nothing else could be doing it!

I have since revised my act. I will never perform in another church. Anything. Not even stand-up comedy! Nope. Is it wrong to PRETEND to perform seances? Danny has a fantastic view on that. And what you find, when you open those "doors"...you cannot control. Briefly:

God has locked away certain rebel "beings". They were disobedient and are locked away in "Chains Of Darkness", whatever that is. If we release them...and they get out...God help us. We really have no idea. Not a clue. So, you see...Ouija Boards, Seances, Ghost Hunting...no. Not even. Never. Be safe, my friends!

Doug
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Nov 29, 2013 10:09PM)
I once performed a card trick for a few people (christians) afterward, one lady responded with "witchcraft is of Satan". I tried to explain to her that it was just a trick, slight of hand. She never seemed convinced, it seemed impossible to her therefore she classified it as supernatural and catagorized it as witchcraft. I just smiled and walked away - smiled because the routine must have been pretty convincing, walked away because some people are so set in there ways and ideas that there is nothing you can do. There is nothing wrong with being a magician, it is totally different from anything supernatural, unless you try to convince people it is real. In today's society people realize that a magician performs illusions and not supernatural feats. But just like some people still believe the earth is flat, there will always be people that just don't get it. That is sad, in my opinion, and as much as we might try to be all things to all people it is just not possible - people just contradict each other and some will require you not to use your God given gifts.

As much as some people have issues with magic, a seance goes much further, it will directly deal with supernatural themes and therefore can easily cross a line. As I stated earlier, if doing it in a way that demonstrates how they are fake and nothing more than magic tricks (using the opportunity to disprove what others claim, perhaps with an element of humor or parody), then it could possibly be done by a christian, in my opinion. However, for some christian groups even that would be inappropriate. If you were approaching it that way with a secular audience, then it may be appropriate.

Personally, I don't even use spirit or ghost themed magic routines, but would change the theme to something not supernatural. I don't want to blur the image of what I do as a magician. Or blur the image of what I believe when it comes to the supernatural. These matters must be handled carefully.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Nov 29, 2013 11:05PM)
God given gifts versus our own talents/skills. Our skill and talents are the results of our efforts by means of learning through books, DVD's, practice, etc.

God given gifts are usually spiritual gifts that are given to us by God, for God's purpose and has nothing to do with our skills, talents, knowledge, nor wisdom.

I also fail to see what is fake about séances, and by leading people to believe they are all fake is not biblically correct. The Bible considers these experiences to be associated with deceiving spirits, demons, angels of light or counterfeits for the true Spirit of God. You might want to read all of 1 Samuel 28:1-25 There is a great gulf fixed between the abode of the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead which no one can cross. When there is supernatural activity in a seance, I'm pretty sure it's not the spirit of the dead person speaking through the medium. According to the scriptures it is not possible to contact the spirits of the dead. Jesus made this very clear with the account of the rich man and Lazarus. So, I believe it wasn't Samuel but a demon posing as him.


Isaiah 8:19 (KJV)
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Colossians 2:8 (KJV)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Nov 30, 2013 11:39PM)
Our spiritual gifts usually give us the opportunity to use our talents, skills etc.. Someone who is skilled at cooking will find that skill useful as they prepare meals for those in need using their spiritual gift. Those who are teachers will find the use of many different skills and talents that aid in their teaching. Pastors make use of numerous talents and skills, not all pastors have the same skills. Yes, talents and gifts are different concepts, but are not unrelated. And if we are not allowed to use our talents in the execution of our gifts then we are not properly using our gifts. God gives us gifts, but he also gives us the ability, interest and desire to develop certain talents, and often those talents will be useful in carrying out our gifts. So if someone tells me I shouldn't use a skill I have, then they may be hindering me from using the gift God has given.

And no I do not believe that seances are real. yes, demons are real and active. but I have not been convinced of anyone having the power to conjure them up with the physical evidence demonstrated in a seance. They are all frauds in my opinion. That doesn't dismiss the spiritual realm, or the power of satan or demons, it just dismisses peoples ability to access them in such a way. so I don't have a problem telling people seances are fake and disagree that such a view is not biblically correct. And yes, playing with the occult, or any demonic activities is a serious matter with serious consequences. BUt psychics and seances are still frauds and fakes.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 1, 2013 02:26AM)
You fail to understand scripture, not me. The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best. If that does not suit you well, I am afraid to tell you that you lack faith in God, and put more of your faith in your talents instead. I can only advice that you seek God's Word through scripture rather than what you think and believe. I can tell you now with full spiritual conviction, that you are wrong in your assumption. I rebuke your assumptions. It's not that I am right, but rather what scripture tells us. The evidence is there for you if you so choose to read. If not, what else can I do?

You have been mislead to believe in a lie. Our pride at times can prohibited us from seeing the truth, but when we earnestly seek God's truth, it will be revealed to us.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Dec 1, 2013 03:02PM)
Well now, no rebuking is necessary. I also lack faith in some things. No big deal. "...often those talents will be useful in carrying out our gifts." Yes, I agree. What we want to avoid is, "The appearance of doing wrong." Whatever that "doing wrong" is. The APPEARANCE.

The INTENT may be innocent, but the audiece decides. Discernment in choosing your audience is imperative. To me, a Seance for church members is equal to serving a Pork Roast at a Bar Mitzvah.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Ed_Millis (Dec 1, 2013 05:58PM)
Entertainment invites a person to suspend their regular daily opinions about reality and enter the world of the entertainer. That act of entering someone else's world, whether through a book, a movie, or live theater, requires a certain amount of faith that this other world is safe and nothing there will hurt you. Thus we are invited to lower our defenses and "enjoy the ride".

In the secular realm, this usually poses very little problem. We are at this event because we're totally willing to absorb whatever the event brings to us. And in the totally "spiritual" realm (blanket term for church-type events comprised mostly of church people doing church-related things), we feel very safe and enjoying ourselves.

Most Christians are very aware that evil is more often low-key and seductive than brute force. So as we walk through life we are constantly on the defensive against the hidden "snares of the fowler" (Psalms 93). And those of us who have been or seen others enticed and tripped up or even completely ensared are especially vigilant. Some of these "watchful" types may be labelled "superstitious", and some of them actually are.

More common, though, are people who call themselves Christians but have the carnal appetites of "worldly" people. And it's seen a lot in their entertainment. They would never engage in murder, but they'll enjoy portrayals of all manner of hatred, vengeance, and brutality in their living room every night. They would never engage in sexual sins, but they'll enjoy all manner of sexual innuendo and tittilation in their movies and TV programs. And while they would never worship the devil nor call forth evil spirits, neither will they judge it whenever they come across it in their daily living.

"It doesn't bother me!" In my opinion, that's the biggest part of the problem: the seductions of the world don't really bother most church-goers (I'll be spare with the term "Christian" here). How is it that it bothered Jesus but not y'all?

The other side of that coin is that if you are not bothered by it, it may not dawn on you that it sure can bother other people. Maybe you really are a super-Christian and nothing the devil has can ever touch you - but are you at all sensitive to your brother and your duty to him?

The disclaimer should try to set people's minds at ease: "you are totally safe removing all of your spiritual armor during my program." Some will never, ever trust anyone saying that - and maybe they have reasons that are good to them while foolish to you: do you respect their spiritual walk enough to not despise them? They are responsible to Jesus alone for how they live; you are just as responsible to Jesus for your sensitivity to them.

Many good folk could never conceive of magic tricks in church. Yes, that's between them and their pastor. But while some are okay with a certain "depth" of trick, other styles of magic come far too close to the demonic in their mind. (And I have explained here before that I used to be one of the uninformed superstitious types - but I was still one of God's children.) We send out emails or make phone calls a day or two before a birthday party to make sure every bit of communication was understood - do we touch base with the pastor to make sure his church is okay with what we plan to do? Do we care about him and his church? Or just about "me"?

Personally, I would put a seance too close to the line in the secular realm. I can't expect sinners to be aware of the devil's enticements. Would the God Who loves them hold me accountable for breaking down the barriers even further? And 'way over the line in any church performance, with one exception: you are going to expose everything for the education of the church with the full appreciation of the pastor and church.

My two cents.
Ed
Message: Posted by: Stephon Johnson (Dec 1, 2013 08:05PM)
My fear of offending or stumbling a brother/sister or nonbeliever is a factor in ANY magic presented as entertainment. But my MOST prominent concern is whether or not I offend my Lord!! He is perfect, holy and righteous and hates evil. So I am careful not to portray any practice or behavior He hates! Even with magic I never let people think I'm suggesting anything other than light hearted "trickery" for fun is happening. I'm also careful to not let magic become an idol (if you're a Christian you know how magic as a hobby or interest can practically consume your every thought if you allow it).
The day I no longer think I can serve God and do magic...will be the day I abandon magic! I mean, why be so focused in this life on an activity that WILL NOT EXIST in the life to come? Does the absence of doing tricks and sleights in eternity disappoint you? Examine your heart and motives in all things.
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Dec 2, 2013 11:15PM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-01 03:26, Danny Kazam wrote:
You fail to understand scripture, not me. The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best. If that does not suit you well, I am afraid to tell you that you lack faith in God, and put more of your faith in your talents instead. I can only advice that you seek God's Word through scripture rather than what you think and believe. I can tell you now with full spiritual conviction, that you are wrong in your assumption. I rebuke your assumptions. It's not that I am right, but rather what scripture tells us. The evidence is there for you if you so choose to read. If not, what else can I do?

You have been mislead to believe in a lie. Our pride at times can prohibited us from seeing the truth, but when we earnestly seek God's truth, it will be revealed to us.
[/quote]


I have to disagree, using our talents does not prevent God from working, but instead is being faithful to what God calls us to do. I have known preachers who do very little preparation for a sermon, but instead prefer to "let the spirit lead" when they speak. But the results always show in a poor and boring sermon. God expects us to put forth the effort, not just rely on him to overcome our lack of preparation and hard work. I watch others who use the gift God has given them to preach, they also develop their talents and skills, they study hard, prepare long hours and pray a lot for God's guidance. The Holy Spirit can lead in our preparation and guide in your study and hard work. God works through us, not around us - we are his hands and feet. The Scripture teaches hard work, preparation, growth. That doesn't mean that we do it and not God, or that our faith is in ourselves and not God. Just the opposite, we believe that God can work through the gifts he has given and the hard work and talents he can use. We also realize that God doesn't need us at all and we are blessed that he chooses to use us at all. And no, God doesn't need a perfect presentation or performance, but he calls us to do our best in all we do. That includes using our talents and developing them the best we can, not because God needs them, not because God can't do it without our help, but because we are called to do all to God's glory and that deserves our best effort. And if God uses that to make a difference we rejoice that God chose to use us and our feeble efforts, which are feeble no matter how talented anyone thinks they are. Yes, some people get overly caught up in their own talents and abilities and think that anything good that happens is because of what they did and because of their talent. I am not suggesting or promoting that at all. Just saying that developing talents and skills is a good thing and that God can use those in the exercise of whatever gift he has given. God calls us to put the hard work in, look at the example of Paul and his study and preparation. So I have to disagree with the statement: "The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best."
I don't find scripture to support that idea at all, in fact I find scripture to teach just the opposite. The parable of the talents (money in this case) teaches that, different amounts were given to different people based on their ability, and the ones who used their abilities were rewarded and the one who did nothing with his abilities was punished.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 3, 2013 12:54AM)
You may disagree, but you are disagreeing with scripture, not with me. No where in scripture does God ever encourage us to excel in our own talents. In fact, I believe it's the contrary. We are to take the gifts God gives us and use them to the best of our ability, which means through faith. The less our own talents are used for God's purpose the more God gets credit, otherwise we may boast and say, "My skills help bring people to the God" How many times have you heard a gospel magician boast that their gospel ministry is a successful ministry in bringing children to Christ? They say, "Last week, we had 10 children come up after our show and receive Jesus in their heart." They defend their magic show ministry by saying, "We are doing God's work because we've had 37 children this month receive Jesus in their hearts."


Judges 7:2 (NIV) The Lord said to Gideon, "You have too many men for me to deliver Midian into their hands. In order that Israel may not boast against me that her own strength has saved her."

God obviously was not interested in human strength or talent. The basic principal is put in a couple of nice summary verses:


Zec 4:6 Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the Lord Almighty.
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.

Jer 17:5 Thus says the Lord, Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength...

Talents vs. Gifts

"Quibbling over the distinction between gifts and talents has little value in discovering what gifts we have. It would be odd for God, who made us, not to "build into" some of us natural talents that would later be used as gifts. On the other hand, neither should we be surprised if the Holy Spirit gives gifts to make up for a lack of natural ability. The value of understanding the difference between gifts and talents comes after discovering a spiritual gift--in understanding the temptations and pitfalls of obedience if natural talent is present, or absent.

For those with spiritual gifts that intersect with natural talent, there is always the temptation to minister in the power of the flesh. If this is the situation, we must be careful not to produce "Ishmael's" with the natural ability God has given us (Gal 4:23). We must wait upon the Lord to use our natural talent with supernatural results. Natural talent, after all, won't last long. But those who have learned to trust in God and are strong in the Lord will live forever (Luke 8:18).

For those who are gifted in areas where they have no talent, fear of failure can paralyze the spiritual gift. But if we are obedient to the Spirit's low-risk promptings, God will confirm the gift in us with power, and our confidence in God will grow into full maturity. (If pride grows as well, God will let us fall to remind us where the power comes from.) Those who excel in gifts where they have no talent bring glory to God and remind everyone just how gracious He is."


Philippians 3:7-13
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,


I don't recall ever saying our talents are bad, nor does using them prevent God from working. Nothing prevents God from working.

"we rejoice that God chose to use us and our feeble efforts" No, we shouldn't rejoice for this reason. Rejoice in the Lord only, and always.

"The parable of the talents (money in this case) teaches that, different amounts were given to different people based on their ability, and the ones who used their abilities were rewarded and the one who did nothing with his abilities was punished." I think you missed the actual point of this parable. The parable is about faithful service and unfaithful service, not about using our talents/skills. The master was to be gone a long time referencing Jesus' departure and return, and no one knowing the day, nor hour. He entrusted them with faith, some increased that faith, one servant did nothing with it.

According to Romans 12:3, God gives varying measures of faith to his people. Paul says that we ought "to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith" (emphasis added). In the context, this is not a limited reference to the unique spiritual gift of faith which only some believers have (1 Corinthians 12:9). For Paul says, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith. (emphasis added). "To each" refers back to "everyone among you." God has given all Christians varying measures of faith. This is the faith with which we receive and use our varying gifts. It is the ordinary daily trust of the Son of God (Galatians 2:20) by which we live and minister.

In the context, Paul is concerned that people were "thinking of themselves more highly than they ought to think." His final remedy for this pride is to say that, not only are our spiritual gifts a work of God's free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts. This means that every possible ground of boasting is taken away. How can we boast if even the qualification for receiving gifts is also a gift?

That's how important humility is in God's eyes. This is exactly the same aim of God mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9 where Paul stresses that saving faith is a gift: "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not by works, so that no one may boast" (emphasis added). Faith is a gift from God, so that no one may boast. Or, as Romans 12:3 says, so that we will not think too highly of ourselves. The last bastion of pride is the belief that we are the originators of our faith. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/faith01.html


Romans 15:18, "For I will not presume to speak of anything accept what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles. You will say something like a paraphrase of 1 corinthians 4:7, "What did I have that I did not receive? If then I received it, why should I boast as if it were not a gift.?"

I hope you will turn to your Bible, maybe sit down with your Pastor or Priest. I also presented scripture in another post that proves séances can be very real with the example of Saul, but you still disagree? I am not trying to prove myself right, but trying to clear up an misunderstanding.

Having skills is not a bad thing as long as you don't ever take pride or boast in them, which gets tougher as you excel in those skills. Encouraging each other to continue to run the race, continue to have faith, putting God first is good. Encouraging each other to excel in the flesh, not always so good.

You are right when you said, "We also realize that God doesn't need us at all and we are blessed that he chooses to use us at all. And no, God doesn't need a perfect presentation or performance." God would rather use those who have little to no talents because His power is more evident and cannot be confused with someone's skills. That is what I mean when I say the more we use our skills the less God is given credit. God can use our skills, but God can use anything. He can even use a prideful man filled with conceit. He has used sinners, saints, and every type of person known to man. God is not limited, and is all powerful. He does not need us, but He loves us so much that He sent His only begotten son to pay the penalty of our sins so we should not perish but have everlasting life.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Dec 3, 2013 09:38AM)
You both have jaw-dropping insight! I am so thankful for this! Our world is made up of dead water and The Flesh. Their world is made with [i]Living Water[/i] and [i]The Spirit[/i]. A difficult concept to grasp.

Doug
Message: Posted by: mikewarner (Dec 3, 2013 10:27AM)
Looks like I've really opened a can of worms here!

Mike
Message: Posted by: Stephon Johnson (Dec 3, 2013 10:35AM)
Great insights all around Danny! And when it comes to any pastime or vocation where we "display" our gifts and talents (artist, musician, magician, juggler, etc..) and usually get much praise and recognition from others, there is a REAL danger for the Christian to become proud and "lean on his/her own understanding" as Proverb 3 warns against. I find that I have to exercise more discipline in these areas and constantly remind myself with scripture; that ALL that I do or have ability and talent to do, is GIVEN to me by God. Thus, I am merely a steward of something that is not my own! He made me, and also purchased me; so I am "twice His".
That being the case with all Christians, we should be very careful how we use those gifts and talents! Nadab and Abihu offered what they deemed acceptable fire to worship God, instead of abiding by His specific instructions. They were consumed by fire and destroyed.
We aren't free to just put a "gospel" wrapping on something warned against in scripture, and call it entertainment that God is pleased with, much less glorified by. There IS A LINE and we should stay far from it, instead of asking how close we can get to it without crossing.
Very very good discussion and points made by all here. I am encouraged!
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 3, 2013 03:58PM)
Danny, can you clarify this and expand it a bit more please?

"The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best. If that does not suit you well, I am afraid to tell you that you lack faith in God, and put more of your faith in your talents instead."
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 3, 2013 06:40PM)
Sometimes we put more trust and faith in ourselves than we do in God. We try to earn God's favour using our natural talents, rather than using and trusting the faith given to us.

We all lack faith, but the more we put faith in our own works, the less faith we are demonstrating in God.

Not sure if that helps.

I don't feel I can expand on it anymore than that, because I just don't know how. I am not a humble servant of the Lord. I struggle with my own faith and pride almost everyday. Today is one of them.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 3, 2013 06:45PM)
Bryan, I will pm you when I get a chance. I was trying to post from my mobile just after performing a show. Pretty tired right now. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 3, 2013 07:22PM)
Definitely man, looking forward to it.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 4, 2013 11:16AM)
"The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best."

When we use our talents we bring glory to ourselves, and the more we use our talents the less glory God recieves. we must present
ourselves to God as his servants. What God does best is being Lord of our lives. Our lives is shaped by the decisions we make, and the greatest of these decisions is this, am I the lord of my life, or is God the Lord of my life? We will either try to rule our own lives or submit to the authority of God


"If that does not suit you well, I am afraid to tell you that you lack faith in God, and put more of your faith in your talents instead."

When we put more trust in ourselves, our own talents, we are not living like stewards for God. Our trust and faith is not first in Him with whom we claim to be the Lord of our lives. We all lack faith in God, but some don't lack in faith, they clearly have lots of faith in themselves and what they can do rather than faith in what God can do.

Take me for instance. I struggle with pride issues all the time. I am in no way a humble servant for God, but I have been humbled several times in my life because I put more trust in myself rather than in God. I have taken credit for things God was doing, and I would become proud. I thank God that I am saved by grace, and not by works. I'm thankful that God loved me so much He was willing to let me fall so that I could stand again.

I have probally lived a different life than most here. I came from a broken home, was abused by my father, left home to live on the streets, got involved with gangs, drugs, alcohol, spent time in jail. That is who I would still be if it wasn't for God intervening in my life the way He did. I am what I am today because of God. Nothing I did changed my life.


"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. Neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside Thee, which worketh for him that waiteth for Him. Isa. 40:31, 64:4.

Here we have two texts in which the connection between waiting and working is made clear. In the first we see that waiting brings the needed strength for working--that it fits for joyful and unwearied work. They that wait on the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up on eagles' wings; they shall run, and not be weary; they shall walk, and not faint.' Waiting on God has its value in this: it makes us strong in work for God. The second reveals the secret of this strength. God worketh for Him that waiteth for Him.' The waiting on God secures the working of God for us and in us, out of which our work must spring. The two passages teach the great lesson, that as waiting on God lies at the root of all true working for God, so working for God must be the fruit of all true waiting on Him. Our great need is to hold the two sides of the truth in perfect conjunction and harmony.

There are some who say they wait upon God, but who do not work for Him. For this there may be various reasons. Here is one who confounds true waiting on God (in living direct intercourse with Him as the Living One), and the devotion to Him of the energy of the whole being, with the slothful, helpless waiting that excuses itself from all work until God, by some special impulse, has made work easy. Here is another who waits on God more truly, regarding it as one of the highest exercises of the Christian life, and yet has never understood that at the root of all true waiting there must lie the surrender and the readiness to be wholly fitted for God's use in the service of men. And here is still another who is ready to work as well as wait, but is looking for some great inflow of the Spirit's power to enable him to do mighty works, while he forgets that as a believer he already has the Spirit of Christ dwelling in Him; that more grace is only given to those who are faithful in the little; and that it is only in working that we can be taught by the Spirit how to do the greater works. All such, and all Christians, need to learn that waiting has working for its object, that it is only in working that waiting can attain its full perfection and blessedness. It is as we elevate working for God to its true place, as the highest exercise of spiritual privilege and power, that the absolute need and the divine blessing of waiting on God can be fully known.

On the other hand, there are some, there are many, who work for God, but know little of what it is to wait on Him. They have been led to take up Christian work, under the impulse of natural or religious feeling, at the bidding of a pastor or a society, with but very little sense of what a holy thing it is to work for God. They do not know that God's work can only be done in God's strength, by God Himself working in us. They have never learnt that, just as the Son of God could do nothing of Himself, but that the Father in Him did the work, as He lived in continual dependence before Him, so, and much more, the believer can do nothing but as God works in him. They do not understand that it is only as in utter weakness we depend upon Him, His power can rest on us. And so they have no conception of a continual waiting on God as being one of the first and essential conditions of successful work. And Christ's Church and the world are sufferers to-day, oh, so terribly! not only because so many of its members are not working for God, but because so much working for God is done without waiting on God.

Among the members of the body of Christ there is a great diversity of gifts and operations. Some, who are confined to their homes by reason of sickness or other duties, may have more time for waiting on God than opportunity of direct working for Him. Others, who are over pressed by work, find it very difficult to find time and quiet for waiting on Him. These may mutually supply each other's lack. Let those who have time for waiting on God definitely link themselves to some who are working. Let those who are working as definitely claim the aid of those to whom the special ministry of waiting on God has been entrusted. So will the unity and the health of the body be maintained. So will those who wait know that the outcome will be power for work, and those who work, that their only strength is the grace obtained by waiting. So will God work for His Church that waits on Him.

Let us pray that as we proceed in these meditations on working for God, the Holy Spirit may show us how sacred and how urgent our calling is to work, how absolute our dependence is upon God's strength to work in us, how sure it is that those who wait on Him shall renew their strength, and how we shall find waiting on God and working for God to be indeed inseparably one."
This is where I got the quote from, http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/working_god/working.htm

Are we working on our talents that edifies us? Or, are we working on what God has given us to edify Him?

God bless!
Message: Posted by: harris (Dec 4, 2013 12:14PM)
Ecclesiastes....all the cattle, all the gold, wive(s) (jokes,props, routines, awards....) are for naught.

Sometimes it is my gifts, other times my thorn(s)......

and in the end (and the beginning) there is God, The Holy Spirit and Jesus.

The wisdom of Harris is folly to God. (Cor.)

The evil one is real. As we grow closer to God, we need to draw even closer as attacks can happen.

love brother Harris
still too old to know everything and I keep into His Word.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 4, 2013 04:35PM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-04 12:16, Danny Kazam wrote:
"The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best."

When we use our talents we bring glory to ourselves, and the more we use our talents the less glory God recieves. we must present
ourselves to God as his servants. What God does best is being Lord of our lives. Our lives is shaped by the decisions we make, and the greatest of these decisions is this, am I the lord of my life, or is God the Lord of my life? We will either try to rule our own lives or submit to the authority of God

[/quote]

To clarify to the OP I think the idea of a seance with the exception of showing it to be fraudulent is not a good idea.

Danny:
I don't see this distinction of earthly talents. Where on your view do talents come from? I believe that God is sovereign. I believe that God has gifted people in different areas, after all one cannot learn to sing by simply taking courses. God has given us the gifts of, in our case, public speaking, the ability to hold attention. I know that I never want to water down my message in my. I don't want to shoehorn a message into a trick just to be a "Christian Illusionist" . That being said though, I never want to water down the art and slap a trick into a message just to do "Gospel magic" I believe God has called us to excellence in what He has gifted us at.

I know the parable of the servants uses the word talents, but hermeneutically we know that means an amount of money, so let's use sum for short.

To some people he has given a certain sum, and to others a different sum, however which servant was not doing the right thing? The one who buried his sum and never used it. I want to hear well done good and faithful servant.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 4, 2013 05:23PM)
The Bible gives us many scriptures that explains the difference between our own talents, skills, efforts, and the gifts of the Spirit. I do not wish to continue going around the same circle.
You asked of me to expand a bit on a couple of my quotes, "Danny, can you clarify this and expand it a bit more please?

"The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best. If that does not suit you well, I am afraid to tell you that you lack faith in God, and put more of your faith in your talents instead."

I took kind to do so, or at least made my best effort to. I apologize if it were not enough, but I believe I addressed your disagreements already in my previous posts which I point to scriptures as my source.

I learned how to sing because I took singing lessons. I didn't wake up one day and suddenly knew how to play the piano. I had to take lessons. I learned how to perform magic because I read books and watched DVD's.

I didn't learn how to have faith, but God taught me what I should do with it. I cannot learn to perform miracles, or learn how to speak in tongues, or learn how to supernaturally heal people, etc. No matter how much Bible school education I recieve doesn't somehow give me the gift of teaching. I don't know how much more that needs to be expanded.

That doesn't mean that we can't have talents and skills. As we are all called to be witnesses for Christ, we should be examples for Christ in ALL that we do. God can gift us to compensate for our lack of talent, but we cannot compensate the lack of spiritual gifts in our lives with our own talents.


We as entertainers should be shining for Christ regardless if we are performing Gospel magic or not. We should be using our talents to glorify God.

Even though we are carnal, God still uses us, and will use our talents, not to benifit us, but to benifit His work in other peoples lives.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 4, 2013 06:42PM)
Danny, maybe I'm just crazy but aren't we saying the same thing?

No matter how many lessons I take I'll never sing like Josh Groban. I'm curious on your view of God's plan for people's lives? Does He not bless some with certain talents and abilities to use for his glory?

This whole talk of carnality is irrelevant to the idea of using your talents for God. This notion of using our talents hampers God is bizarre. Was Paul not gifted in debate and writing and out to use in Athens? You seem to suggest that the Holy Spirit can't work through people sharing the Gospel using their talents? Does a pastor stand and read scripture monotone?

I think we all know it's not because of us, but it's in spite of us God works. I know that when people come to know Jesus during my show it's not me doing that. It's the Holy Spirit moving through the preaching of His word.

Again I'm not even sure what you are arguing against.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 4, 2013 07:19PM)
I am not arguing. You asked me to expand a bit, and I did. You then wanted more from me. Do not look to me, but seek out God's Word for the answers you seek. If you think we are saying the same thing then why do you ask me so many questions? Why wasn't my effort to expand a bit on two of my quotes not enough? I am not the author of the Bible. I stated what I believe using scripture to back it up so no one can give me credit, but hopefully draw others to their own Bibles. That's all I can do.

I never said that using our talents hampers God, and to be honest, I take offense to being misquoted like that. God doesn't need our talents, plain and simple. God will use our talents, but our talents never help God's spiritual gifts bestowed upon us.

2 Corinthians 11:6 King James Bible
But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

11:5-15 It is far better to be plain in speech, yet walking openly and consistently with the gospel, than to be admired by thousands, and be lifted up in pride, so as to disgrace the gospel by evil tempers and unholy lives. The apostle would not give room for any to accuse him of worldly designs in preaching the gospel, that others who opposed him at Corinth, might not in this respect gain advantage against him. Hypocrisy may be looked for, especially when we consider the great power which Satan, who rules in the hearts of the children of disobedience, has upon the minds of many. And as there are temptations to evil conduct, so there is equal danger on the other side. It serves Satan's purposes as well, to set up good works against the atonement of Christ, and salvation by faith and grace. But the end will discover those who are deceitful workers; their work will end in ruin. Satan will allow his ministers to preach either the law or the gospel separately; but the law as established by faith in Christ's righteousness and atonement, and the partaking of his Spirit, is the test of every false system.
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Dec 4, 2013 08:15PM)
I strive to give God the credit, glory, and thanks for the gifts he has given me, as well as for the talents and skills he has provided me with, as I am his creation. I thank God for the ability and motivation he has provided to develop those skills and talents. I thank God for the opportunities to use all of those, separately or in combination, to do the tasks he calls me to do and sends me out to do. I try to guard against pride and seek to remember that it is God and not me - sometimes I fail. I have found myself thanking God for mistakes and blunders that at times make me look bad, because those things provide the lesson of humility that is too often needed. I am thankful that God desires for me to offer all that I am and have to him for his use and his purposes, realizing that they are all gifts from him in some way or other.

Phil 4:8-9 "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you."
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 4, 2013 08:26PM)
The difference between an entertainment-oriented preacher and a Bible-oriented preacher is the manifest connection of the preacher’s words to the Bible as what authorizes what he says.

The entertainment-oriented preacher gives the impression that he is not tethered to an authoritative book in what he says. What he says doesn’t seem to be shaped and constrained by an authority outside himself. He gives the impression that what he says has significance for reasons other than that it manifestly expresses the meaning and significance of the Bible. So he seems untethered to objective authority.

The entertainment-oriented preacher seems to be at ease talking about many things that are not drawn out of the Bible. In his message, he seems to enjoy more talking about other things than what the Bible teaches. His words seem to have a self-standing worth as interesting or fun. They are entertaining. But they don’t give the impression that this man stands as the representative of God before God’s people to deliver God’s message.

The Bible-oriented preacher, on the other hand, does see himself that way—“I am God’s representative sent to God’s people to deliver a message from God.” He knows that the only way a man can dare to assume such a position is with a trembling sense of unworthy servanthood under the authority of the Bible. He knows that the only way he can deliver God’s message to God’s people is by rooting it in and saturating it with God’s own revelation in the Bible.
John Piper
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 4, 2013 08:27PM)
God bless everyone.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 5, 2013 07:30AM)
""The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best. If that does not suit you well, I am afraid to tell you that you lack faith in God, and put more of your faith in your talents instead."

It's this quote I was going off of Danny. My intention is not to offend at all but to learn and get clarification. You object to me asking questions on your opinion as if it's a bad thing, yet earlier you wrote to someone else that the reason you asked him so many questions was to learn. Am I not allowed the same opportunity.

Perhaps hamper wasn't the best word for me to use.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 5, 2013 08:51AM)
Where do I say I object to you asking questions? Have I not tried to answer them for you? You put words in my mouth, and then say you just want clarification? Have I not expanded and clarified those two statements enough? I even apologized if it wasn't enough for you. That's it, that's all I got. Seek God's Words in scripture brother, and let his light shine fourth. :)


Peace!
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 5, 2013 09:20AM)
"If you think we are saying the same thing then why do you ask me so many questions? Why wasn't my effort to expand a bit on two of my quotes not enough?"
Just going off this brother. No worries man it's been good talking to you. I think we'll just agree to agree lol.
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Dec 5, 2013 09:30AM)
"The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best"
"I never said that using our talents hampers God, and to be honest, I take offense to being misquoted like that"

These two statements seem to address the confusion. They seem to contradict each other. Perhaps your intention is different than what other people are hearing in these statements, because the first statement seems to say that using our talents does hamper God doing what he does best. Therefore using our talents becomes a negative. But from all you have said, what you are perhaps focusing on is not so much the use of our talents, but rather the relying on our talents and abilities instead of relying on God. God can work through our talents, but pride, feeling that it is our ability that matters, or doing things for our own glory does not allow God to work.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 5, 2013 11:27AM)
The more we rely on our skills the less we rely on God working through us. We are relying on our skills rather than God's skills. The more I fill up on junk food, the less room I have for a healthy meal.

Our body will obsorb the junk food, even giving us a temperary energy boost. But the side effects is we burn out more quickly, and our body does not get the proper nutrients it needs for us to properly grow. Too much junk food can lead to health issues. Eating healthy meals means we put the proper nutrients in our body, giving us longer lasting energy without the crash.

Does our body use the sugar and other stuff in junk food? Yes. Is it benificial to our health? No. If we eat too much of it, or rely on junk food to fill us up, will we have room for a healthy meal? No, we would be too full from the junk food we keep consuming.

Junk food doesn't make healthy food more healthy, nor does it create a healthy appetite.

God can use anything for His benifit, but that doesn't make everything benificial to us.

If all you can take from everything I said and quoted from the Bible is that one quote I made, then you are missing the bigger picture.

It's easy to try and find fault with one of my comments, but what about all the scriptures I provided that supports what I said? How much are you willing to endure just to try and prove I am fallible? Yet, neither one of you have presented one correct piece of scripture. If I am wrong, then use scripture to correct me, as I have tried to do.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 5, 2013 12:26PM)
"The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best"
"I never said that using our talents hampers God, and to be honest, I take offense to being misquoted like that"

I said, "The MORE we use our talents" not, "using our talents". I am fallible, but God's Word is infallible. Can we end this now? I feel overwhelmed by both of you. I have said so much already in all my posts that not only explains what I believe, why I believe it, but even posted scriptures that taught me what I know. I used scripture to correct Mark's misunderstanding of a parable, and have posted several other scriptures. Please do me the same kindness.

I am always willing to be corrected, rebuked, etc. But, I don't take kind in repetive attempts to try and snare me in my own words.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 5, 2013 03:37PM)
Danny, to be honest you are just misunderstanding. No one is disagreeing with you. I agree with your scripture shared so why would I quote more to try and disprove what I already agree with? Again though no one is trying to snare you, I'm trying to learn and make sense of what you are saying much like you yourself said you were trying to do.

So again maybe we should disagree to agree? ;-)
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 5, 2013 06:58PM)
“....., you say that even though you make a disclaimer some still believe. Who do you make the disclaimer for? Your sake, or their sake? I ask because it seems your disclaimer fails to put everyone at ease, and I am trying to understand this. I am looking to learn more about this, thanks. “

Is this what you have alluded to twice now?

And the response I got, “Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”

Perhaps Bryan, if I had only responded back to your original request in the same manner, I would have saved myself from further questioning. I don't mind being questioned. I don't like when there is a hidden agenda behind it.

We have disagreed and a few points of scripture. I believe that seance's can be very real. You stated, “To clarify to the OP I think the idea of a seance with the exception of showing it to be fraudulent is not a good idea.”

I disagree. I don't think we should even be doing it to show that's it's fraudulent, especially when that isn't always the case. I provided scripture that shows that seances can be very real.

You didn't see the distinctions of earthly talents from the previous scriptures I posted.

Although I had previously posted scripture about our talents vs. God's gifts, you asked me, “Where on your view do talents come from” I didn't answer that question directly because it doesn't matter what my view on it is, and because I had already addressed that in a previous post. I provided scripture so we would have God's view.

You said, “after all one cannot learn to sing by simply taking courses.”

I believe that someone can learn how to sing by taking courses. You think our talents are gifts from God. Me being a good magician is not a gift from God. I work hard at it. I don't have to work hard to achieve God's gifts, but we all should work hard using them. You being a brilliant illusionist is not a gift from God. You studied it, practiced it, spent time learning about it, and worked hard to be the talent you are today.

“I know the parable of the servants uses the word talents, but hermeneutically we know that means an amount of money, so let's use sum for short. To some people he has given a certain sum, and to others a different sum, however which servant was not doing the right thing? The one who buried his sum and never used it. I want to hear well done good and faithful servant.”

This quote of yours led me to believe you too did not understand the parables meaning as I did. You see, I believe it is about Faith, and being ready for the Master's return.

“No matter how many lessons I take I'll never sing like Josh Groban.”

Why not? Have you tried? Just because we train to be the best hockey player in the world, doesn't mean we will be, no less become a professional. But, just because someone excels in their talents doesn't mean God gave it to them. Charles Manson was a great talker. He had many believing in his every word. I wouldn't say God gifted him with public speaking, or the ability to hold attention.

You asked, “Was Paul not gifted in debate and writing and out to use in Athens?” I could of just said no, but I provided scripture where Paul himself says no. 2 Corinthians 11:6 King James Bible
But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things. Where do you think Paul got his knowlege, from reading the Bible?

“I'm curious on your view of God's plan for people's lives?”

Where did that question come out of? Why were you even asking that question if you were apparently agreeing to what I was saying? And what did it have to do with anything we were talking about?

“ Does He not bless some with certain talents and abilities to use for his glory? “

I think scripture shows that He blesses our talents for His good, not our good, and as an example, the first review on your website gives you glory, not God. I don't know of where in scripture He blesses us with talents. He does bless us with gifts.

Then there are your comments such as this one, “You seem to suggest that the Holy Spirit can't work through people sharing the Gospel using their talents?”

If you read my posts you would of seen that was not the case at all. I make absolutely no suggestion through anything that I said of such a thing. Even if there might of been some confusion, this post I made clears it up, plus a few other ones I made, "God can use our skills, but God can use anything. He can even use a prideful man filled with conceit. He has used sinners, saints, and every type of person known to man. God is not limited, and is all powerful. He does not need us, but He loves us so much that He sent His only begotten son to pay the penalty of our sins so we should not perish but have everlasting life.

So, where did you get such an idea from?

And this, “You object to me asking questions on your opinion as if it's a bad thing, yet earlier you wrote to someone else that the reason you asked him so many questions was to learn. Am I not allowed the same opportunity.”

What opinion? I was using as many scriptures as I posibly could. Have I not given you that courtesy? Did I not give you that opportunity despite that opportunity not being given to me?
And, with out sounding like a broken record, where did I ever say I objected to you asking so many questions. Most of your questions were already answered in previous posts before you even asked them. My frustration comes out of the fact that you keep pretending that you are just asking questions to better understand. But you know that's not true. God knows that's not true. You had another motive behind your questioning. That is my discernment.

“Danny, to be honest you are just misunderstanding”

No Bryan, I don't think I was just misunderstanding at all.

I feel guilty and ashamed because I should of listened to a fellow brother and member of the Café who lovingly tried to warn me earlier about answering anymore questions from you. He saw what I failed to see, but I see it now. Lord forgive me of my pride.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 5, 2013 08:06PM)
Danny I have no other motive brother. You are very confusing. Perhaps it's the fact that text doesn't convey tone.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 5, 2013 08:10PM)
Also to clarify, I didn't write this.

“Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 5, 2013 08:17PM)
I think things have gotten heated for no reason. I think we fundamentally disagree on the idea of a talent. I believe that God creates and has a plan for us including giving us inclinations and abilities to use for His glory and to bring others to know Him. Again suggesting I sing like Josh Groban if I only try is strange because I don't have a good singing voice. (Ask my wife lol)

“I'm curious on your view of God's plan for people's lives?”

Where did that question come out of? Why were you even asking that question if you were apparently agreeing to what I was saying? And what did it have to do with anything we were talking about? "

I asked that because I didn't understand that on your view talents come from people not from God. I now understand your view a little better.

But I would again like to clarify that it was not me who said this,

“Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 5, 2013 08:20PM)
"I am only asking questions to better understand the reasoning of using disclaimers. My apologies for asking, but I was always taught if I don't ask questions how am I to ever learn or understand. Thank you for being kind enough to at least try."

This is what I was talking about brother.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 5, 2013 08:54PM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-05 21:10, Bryan Drake Show wrote:
Also to clarify, I didn't write this.

“Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”
[/quote]
The same thing I am talking about.
And to clarify, I didn't say you said it. But... since you already know who said it, (alluding to it twice) I didn't feel a need to mention their name.

“Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”

was the response I got from him. Again, you already knew that didn't you?
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 5, 2013 09:27PM)
No I didn't realize that, I just thought you had thought I said it. Sorry for the confusion on my end then.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Dec 5, 2013 09:34PM)
Ah crud see, I misattributed you saying "Is this what you were alluding to twice now" to that last post. See how confusing this can be sometimes. Again nothing sinister or mean meant at all by any of this on my end. I'm trying to have a good discussion, and that's what we've had.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Dec 8, 2013 08:30AM)
I do an effect where I "channel" Moses. I do it to show how someone can be "taken in", when an idea, no matter how preposterous it may seem, is presented in a serious manner. It is part of my re-creation of fraudulent psychic phenomena. I give a disclaimer at the beginning of the show and off I go.

Terry
Message: Posted by: Angio333 (Dec 22, 2013 02:06PM)
[quote]
On 2013-11-27 17:45, mikewarner wrote:
I perform mostly for secular audiences. My question was really about whether it was acceptable for a Christian to perform something like this.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Dec 23, 2013 09:47AM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-05 19:58, Danny Kazam wrote:
You think our talents are gifts from God. Me being a good magician is not a gift from God. I work hard at it. I don't have to work hard to achieve God's gifts, but we all should work hard using them.
[/quote]

God's gift is NOT the talent. God's gift to us is having the [i][b]ability[/i][/b] to USE it for God.

[quote]
You being a brilliant illusionist is not a gift from God. You [b]studied it, practiced it, spent time learning about it[/b], and worked hard to be the talent you are today.
[/quote]

The gift is the ABILITY to do such! We can take it as far as we want. Talents may not be "gifts", per se. But having the ABILITY in the first place, is.

Doug
Message: Posted by: katyannmarie (Dec 28, 2013 04:34PM)
Andre Kole did a wonderful mock of what goes on in a "séance." One of the lines I remember from it was that he had to go behind a curtain because "no self-respecting spook will show up in the light" or something to that effect. If the goal is to show that séance magic is really no different than any other type of trick, I'd say to go for it.
I do agree with the posters who say that Christians are highly superstitious. They don't know what the Bible actually says about fortune tellers or psychics or whatever they want to call them, so they think they get their power from Satan. Truth is, no psychic or fortune teller has any more powers than any other magicians. It's all a trick.
If you want to educate on the fraud, do so. If you want to perpetuate the fraud, by suggesting that there is something supernatural behind a séance, you will confuse a lot of people.
I think the thing that has to be done is to show that there is nothing supernatural behind a Ouija board, table tipping, or the possibility to communicate with the dead, but that the BELIEF that there is something supernatural behind it (whether that belief comes from ignorant Christians or ignorant unbelievers) is the key to its alleged "powers."
The question of whether to do it is the goal. What do you hope to accomplish?
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Dec 28, 2013 05:27PM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-28 17:34, katyannmarie wrote:
I think the thing that has to be done is to show that there is nothing supernatural behind a Ouija board...but that the BELIEF that there is something supernatural behind it (whether that belief comes from ignorant Christians or ignorant unbelievers) is the key to its alleged "powers."
[/quote]

Hi Katy! Welcome to the Café! I won't go into detail. A Ouija board CAN be a VERY dangerous thing. Whether you believe in the supernatural or not. You don't and that's OK. I have seen otherwise FIRST HAND. My sister in Calif has a neighbor that had a TERRIBLE experience. The hospital was STUNNED when he came in.

There ARE things in this world you do NOT want to mess with. The Bible warns us...it is VERY real. Calling us "ignorant Christians"...is just not accurate. We are ALL unaware of what lies "beyond the veil"...plus, once one opens certain "doors", human beings are NOT equipped to control what comes through. Nor can we CLOSE those "doors" once opened.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Mel Yoder (Dec 28, 2013 06:07PM)
Hi doug,I have to agree with you.Messing around with the dark spirit world is nothing to play with.It can open up a door to actually be possessed.And the board is one of them.

Mel
Message: Posted by: Theodore Lawton (Dec 28, 2013 06:23PM)
I personally would stay away from doing seances for any reason. We want to avoid the appearance of evil. We want to keep others from stumbling. We want to give glory to God in every area of our life. And there are much more entertaining things I can think of doing than attempting to introduce the occult into my act- even if it's to debunk it. Stephen had a great point when he mentioned that the one we really don't want to offend is God. We are accountable to Him so the real question is: Is it okay for YOU in your relationship with God and according to what the Scriptures say, to do a trick like this? Usually if I find myself questioning something and asking other Christians if it's okay then it isn't. - just my personal experience, but the Holy Spirit has various ways of getting our attention as to what is right and wrong for us.

Mike- What are your motivations for showing such a trick? Do you even want to show one or are you just asking the question? Please share with us what; if anything, you have learned from the conversation so far.

Katy- Welcome to the Café. There are evil forces at work in the world. Some people do receive supernatural powers from demonic influence. Sure, most psychics are pure frauds, but sometimes there are demonic forces at work and Scripture does back this up.

From the book of Acts chapter 16: 16 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” 18 And this she did for many days.

But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour. 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.

There are also demonically possessed people still living with us in the here and now. Mark 5: 1-20 recounts the meeting of Jesus with a demon possessed man. I have seen demoniacs with my own eyes and know for certain that this is still going on today. Whether they are merely aggressive, have powers to tell fortunes, "know" things that would ordinarily be impossible to know; or what have you, this aspect of the spiritual world is very real and should be taken seriously.

The good news is that; if you are saved: greater is He that is in you than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Dec 28, 2013 11:02PM)
By the way, to answer a PM here, aliens/ET/EBE or whatever you want to call them are NOT demons. Nor are they angels. They are of THIS realm like us. They are technologically advanced, some WAY more than us, but they are still mortal. Do not assume a visitation is of The Devil. I just wanted to state that...

Doug
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 29, 2013 02:13AM)
I will Amen that.

[quote]
On 2013-12-28 19:23, Theodore Lawton wrote:
I personally would stay away from doing seances for any reason. We want to avoid the appearance of evil. We want to keep others from stumbling. We want to give glory to God in every area of our life. And there are much more entertaining things I can think of doing than attempting to introduce the occult into my act- even if it's to debunk it. Stephen had a great point when he mentioned that the one we really don't want to offend is God. We are accountable to Him so the real question is: Is it okay for YOU in your relationship with God and according to what the Scriptures say, to do a trick like this? Usually if I find myself questioning something and asking other Christians if it's okay then it isn't. - just my personal experience, but the Holy Spirit has various ways of getting our attention as to what is right and wrong for us.

Mike- What are your motivations for showing such a trick? Do you even want to show one or are you just asking the question? Please share with us what; if anything, you have learned from the conversation so far.

Katy- Welcome to the Café. There are evil forces at work in the world. Some people do receive supernatural powers from demonic influence. Sure, most psychics are pure frauds, but sometimes there are demonic forces at work and Scripture does back this up.

From the book of Acts chapter 16: 16 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” 18 And this she did for many days.

But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour. 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.

There are also demonically possessed people still living with us in the here and now. Mark 5: 1-20 recounts the meeting of Jesus with a demon possessed man. I have seen demoniacs with my own eyes and know for certain that this is still going on today. Whether they are merely aggressive, have powers to tell fortunes, "know" things that would ordinarily be impossible to know; or what have you, this aspect of the spiritual world is very real and should be taken seriously.

The good news is that; if you are saved: greater is He that is in you than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Dec 29, 2013 02:47AM)
Edited due to double post resulting in very old technology software that runs the Café. Not equipped to handle mobile phones or tablets.
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Jan 1, 2014 08:05PM)
I agree greatly with Katie, Andre did a wonderful job of presenting a seance in his act w/o offending. Additionally I support what she states about Ouija boards and table tipping a bit of education can go a long way, do you folks really bevel that the Ouija works any different than a pendulum.
Message: Posted by: frankie5aces (Jan 10, 2014 04:25AM)
To the OP.

totally not cool.
you definitely don't want to give the impression to other Christians, and even non-Christians that this is OK.. by means of entertainment.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 14, 2014 09:12AM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-01 21:05, tboehnlein wrote:
...Additionally I support what she states about Ouija boards and table tipping a bit of education can go a long way, do you folks really believe that the Ouija works any different than a pendulum?
[/quote]

Ask the Los Alamitos guy, who was slashed diagonally across his chest, and thrown across the room against the wall, after trying to take a Ouija Board away from his two kids. Don't believe it? Fine. That changes nothing. The man has permanent scars. He didn't believe either. He does NOW! :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 14, 2014 11:22AM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-14 10:12, Dougini wrote:
[quote]
On 2014-01-01 21:05, tboehnlein wrote:
...Additionally I support what she states about Ouija boards and table tipping a bit of education can go a long way, do you folks really believe that the Ouija works any different than a pendulum?
[/quote]

Ask the Los Alamitos guy, who was slashed diagonally across his chest, and thrown across the room against the wall, after trying to take a Ouija Board away from his two kids. Don't believe it? Fine. That changes nothing. The man has permanent scars. He didn't believe either. He does NOW! :)

Doug
[/quote]

Hi Doug,

I'm interested in the name of this man and any other pertinent information about him so that I can follow up on this and do some research. Where did you read/hear about it?

Thank you,

Terry
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 14, 2014 11:38AM)
Hi Terry! He was my sister's neighbor. I'll see what I can do...

Doug
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 17, 2014 02:58PM)
While I'm waiting to hear back from my sister, I have a question:

They tell us the Universe is 13+ billion years old. They tell us light travels 186,000+ miles per second. We believe them. Then we're told that Ouija Boards are dangerous-OH! Gotta [i]try[/i] that! Yeah, let's see some bad ol' spooks! Why? Halloween has us numbed to it? Boo! Ha ha haha! Right.

When you have been face to face with the unknown, you realize Ouija Boards are a tiny part of a much larger reality. However, the veil is very thin...

Doug
Message: Posted by: Mel Yoder (Jan 17, 2014 05:38PM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-17 15:58, Dougini wrote:
While I'm waiting to hear back from my sister, I have a question:

They tell us the Universe is 13+ billion years old. They tell us light travels 186,000+ miles per second. We believe them. Then we're told that Ouija Boards are dangerous-OH! Gotta [i]try[/i] that! Yeah, let's see some bad ol' spooks! Why? Halloween has us numbed to it? Boo! Ha ha haha! Right.

When you have been face to face with the unknown, you realize Ouija Boards are a tiny part of a much larger reality. However, the veil is very thin...

Doug
[/quote]

The same goes for the voodoo dolls.Ask my friend who had one fly over to a windowsill all on it's own.The devil has power,that's why we need to put on the whole armor and a have a greater power living in us.

Mel
Message: Posted by: Payne (Jan 17, 2014 06:45PM)
Strange, my Voodoo Dolls, Ouija Board, Crystal Ball and Tarot Cards all remain safely and firmly sitting on or in their various shelves and drawers. I even have one of the good Ouija Boards that was made in Salem Massachusetts. So it should just be crammed full of supernatural witchey powers.

But try as I might they all just sit there unmoving regardless of which dark entity I try to summon forth with them. :)
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 18, 2014 09:18AM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-17 19:45, Payne wrote:
Strange, my Voodoo Dolls, Ouija Board, Crystal Ball and Tarot Cards all remain safely and firmly sitting on or in their various shelves and drawers. I even have one of the good Ouija Boards that was made in Salem Massachusetts. So it should just be crammed full of supernatural witchey powers.

But try as I might they all just sit there unmoving regardless of which dark entity I try to summon forth with them. :)
[/quote]

Well, wait until you get a Magic 8 Ball.
Message: Posted by: Mel Yoder (Jan 18, 2014 09:56AM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-17 19:45, Payne wrote:
Strange, my Voodoo Dolls, Ouija Board, Crystal Ball and Tarot Cards all remain safely and firmly sitting on or in their various shelves and drawers. I even have one of the good Ouija Boards that was made in Salem Massachusetts. So it should just be crammed full of supernatural witchey powers.

But try as I might they all just sit there unmoving regardless of which dark entity I try to summon forth with them. :)
[/quote]

Will I can tell you how to get them moving.Throw all the trash in a bonfire where they belong:)

Mel
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 22, 2014 08:04AM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-17 19:45, Payne wrote:
Strange, my Voodoo Dolls, Ouija Board, Crystal Ball and Tarot Cards all remain safely and firmly sitting on or in their various shelves and drawers...But try as I might they all just sit there unmoving regardless of which dark entity I try to summon forth with them. :)
[/quote]

It's OK. Wait'll you [i]hear[/i] from your "dark entity"! They don't always do what WE want...

Doug
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 24, 2014 08:51AM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-14 12:38, Dougini wrote:
Hi Terry! He was my sister's neighbor. I'll see what I can do...

Doug
[/quote]

Hi Doug,

Any info yet that you can pass on to me?

Terry
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 24, 2014 07:49PM)
My sister pretty much told me what I said. He's moved now, no idea where. She is a very religious Catholic and lectured me again about "dabbling in the occult". I guess there are just gonna be people that will put a Ouija Board to "the test". As Payne said, "But try as I might they all just sit there unmoving regardless of which dark entity I try to summon forth with them." Nothing might ever happen.

It only takes ONE TIME for it to happen and then it might be too late. Hey, it's OK to laugh at this and UFO's and ET's. Until it happens to you. It ain't funny no mo'. I personally take it VERY seriously.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Mike Ince (Jan 24, 2014 09:39PM)
Derren Brown's "Seance" was the most complained about televised program in British history. It seems that before the broadcast happened a record number of people, mostly Christians, contacted the network (Channel 4?) to complain. Almost no complaints were received AFTER the program because Derren clearly yet gently debunked the validity of the experience during the closing credits (and knowing his personality I'm convinced he had always intended to do so). I found the show to be hugely entertaining but then I've always been a fan.

I wish Derren would believe in legitimate supernatural occurrences, i.e. the miracles of Christ. He calls himself an ex-Christian. He's one of the most influential opinion-leaders in the UK. Please pray for his discernment, that God would graciously open his eyes. I pray the same for us. Extreme skepticism or extreme credulity have their pitfalls.

Christians are prone to believe things they should question. If they can't explain it, it must be the result of demonic power. That kind of thinking frustrates me. I wish we'd all understand that the Devil is a lion without teeth. We should not assume he has the power to move ouija planchettes by themselves, make paintings spin on walls or other such tales that I've heard from sensationalist preachers. "I know a guy who knows a guy who..." I want them to shut their stupid faces - in their "expertise" they feed superstition instead of extinguishing it. Would it be helpful to the propagation of our faith if most Christians believed in garden fairies? Would that help people take the gospel seriously? Neither do unsubstantiated, sensational stories of the demonic or the occult.

People hear crazy stories and think, "What other garbage do these airheads believe?" Like the "Heaven is Real" kid who tarnished his credibility when he talked about seeing rainbow-colored unicorns in Heaven. He may well have been to Heaven but based on some of his silly testimony I can't trust what he's saying.

I've derailed. The original post has been answered by many people. Sorry for ranting so long.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 25, 2014 08:26AM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-24 20:49, Dougini wrote:
My sister pretty much told me what I said. He's moved now, no idea where. She is a very religious Catholic and lectured me again about "dabbling in the occult". I guess there are just gonna be people that will put a Ouija Board to "the test". As Payne said, "But try as I might they all just sit there unmoving regardless of which dark entity I try to summon forth with them." Nothing might ever happen.

It only takes ONE TIME for it to happen and then it might be too late. Hey, it's OK to laugh at this and UFO's and ET's. Until it happens to you. It ain't funny no mo'. I personally take it VERY seriously.

Doug
[/quote]

Hi Doug,

I've spent years attempting to validate in some way the stories that are circulating about levitations, Ouija boards. metal benders, etc., but have contunually run into the same kind of responses that you have given. It is like trying to "nail jello on a wall." Lots of stories but nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

When I worked with Andre' Kole, Andre' offered a $25,000 award to anyone who would perform an act of true paranormal power in his presence, specifically, but not limited to, levitation or walking on water. To my understanding that offer is still open and has been joined by James Randi's $1,000,000 offer for the same type of act.

As I tell people, "I cannot argue your experience, but I can argue your interpretation of your experience." So I continue on attempting to find validity to the stories.

I know this sounds like a shameless plug, but I do recommend the book I coauthored with Andre' if you haven't read it yet.

Best,

Terry
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Jan 25, 2014 12:07PM)
"As my pappy use to say, 'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time and that's pretty good odds.'"

quote from Brett Maverick, from the tv show "Maverick".
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 25, 2014 10:27PM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-24 22:39, Mike Ince wrote:
Would it be helpful to the propagation of our faith if most Christians believed in garden fairies? Would that help people take the gospel seriously? Neither do unsubstantiated, sensational stories of the demonic or the occult.

People hear crazy stories and think, "What other garbage do these airheads believe?"
[/quote]

Yeah. I'm one of those "airheads". LOL. Unsubstantiated, sensational stories of the demonic or the occult? Honestly? I don't have a clue. Demonic? Occult? Satan? Who knows...we are assuming these things. I don't know what happened out in CA...my sister does. She saw the guy's stitches! His wife & kids SAW him thrown across the room into a wall.

Are they all liars? It is arrogant to assume we know what IS and ISN'T true. I don't know. I didn't see it. If I told you the things I HAVE seen first hand...you'd probably throw me outta here! If people don't want to hear it, they should not ask...

Doug
Message: Posted by: Mike Ince (Jan 26, 2014 06:53PM)
Doug, I haven't read the post you're referring to. I read the first couple of pages of this thread. Hope you didn't think I was writing specifically about anything you posted. I'll read it after I've written this post.

When we don't know for sure whether an anecdote is true, I ask why bother spreading it? Sometimes people spread rumors and stories they believe to be true that aren't. I wouldn't call those people liars. I wouldn't call what they do helpful, either. Those stories are often sidelines; they are things that shouldn't take priority over more important matters. We can say with certainty that Christ is risen from the dead. We can't treat all supernatural claims with the same vehemence because the evidence just isn't as pervasive. Like Doug wrote, we often just don't know.

Anecdotes might make interesting conversation but I'd rather stick to what John said in his first epistle concerning ""What WE have seen,what we have touched..." Keeping the gospel the message of first importance. We agree on that, I think.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 26, 2014 07:10PM)
Proverbs 18:17 - "The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him."

I have found this to be so true in so many instances while I was researching for my book. I still find it to be true.

Terry
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 27, 2014 04:01PM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-26 19:53, Mike Ince wrote:
Doug, I haven't read the post you're referring to. I read the first couple of pages of this thread. Hope you didn't think I was writing specifically about anything you posted.
[/quote]

No, Mike. I just was stating how I have been labelled for relaying a story, whether true or not. We really cannot be sure about what is happening. I have seen and experienced things first-hand that convince me all is NOT as it seems.

UFO's, for example. You're either a nutcase or yes, you HAVE been abducted. But no ANSWERS! Who these beings are, where they come from...nothing. Ghosts. Yes, SOMETHING is happening, but we don't have a CLUE what! Voodoo. I have been a victim. It's real. What IS it? Not clue ONE!

Until we have a better handle on it, I don't laugh and I don't play around with it.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Mel Yoder (Jan 27, 2014 07:15PM)
I will tell this story on levitation for what it's worth.My missionary friend was over in Haiti.Said from time to time the witch doctors and their men come together on a road and have an all out fight untell the last one standing takes over the territory.While this is going on,they will let absalooty no trafic come through.There was this man going back and forth across the road stopping traffic and his feet never hit the ground.

Mel
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 28, 2014 07:45PM)
Interesting story about supposed demoniztion in Gary, IN, that I hope we can get to the bottom of!

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/01/25/the-disposession-of-latoya-ammons/4892553/
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jan 31, 2014 11:20AM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-28 20:45, Terry Holley wrote:
Interesting story about supposed demoniztion in Gary, IN, that I hope we can get to the bottom of!

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/01/25/the-disposession-of-latoya-ammons/4892553/
[/quote]

More info and watch a couple videos!

EXCLUSIVE VIDEO - Inside the 'portal to hell': Relative gives investigators tour of haunted Indiana home where 'possessed' children were 'chanting satanically' and saw 'ugly, black monster.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2547224/EXCLUSIVE-A-portal-hell-Police-chief-priest-examined-possessed-children-haunted-Indiana-home-official-reports-saying-no-hoax.html?ico=ushome^headlines
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Feb 6, 2014 07:22PM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-31 12:20, Terry Holley wrote:
[quote]
On 2014-01-28 20:45, Terry Holley wrote:
Interesting story about supposed demoniztion in Gary, IN, that I hope we can get to the bottom of!

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/01/25/the-disposession-of-latoya-ammons/4892553/
[/quote]

More info and watch a couple videos!

EXCLUSIVE VIDEO - Inside the 'portal to hell': Relative gives investigators tour of haunted Indiana home where 'possessed' children were 'chanting satanically' and saw 'ugly, black monster.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2547224/EXCLUSIVE-A-portal-hell-Police-chief-priest-examined-possessed-children-haunted-Indiana-home-official-reports-saying-no-hoax.html?ico=ushome^headlines



[/quote]

Soooooooooooooooo....any thoughts from those who read the articles and/or watched the videos?
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 6, 2014 09:04PM)
My thought are, that with the number of ghost hunter shows and supernatural films supposedly based on
"true" events, that someone's looking for a movie deal. I found her description and depiction of the events that she claims transpired to be totally unconvincing. She's too "matter of fact" describing what happened and shows little emotion as she recalls the events that were supposed to have taken place.
Plus people are living in the house now with no ill effects. Just as the number of people who lived in before never experience anything out of the ordinary.