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Topic: Secrecy
Message: Posted by: Pagangod (Dec 29, 2003 12:53PM)
I just wanted to know why magicians do not like to post real information to help out. The responses I see for persons needing help are very obscure and point you to go buy some product. Purchasing magic books and supplies is financially breaking so I guess most people have the attitude if I had to buy it then they will to. I tell you what when I get the experience built up I will totally help beginners out with clear and concise instructions on how to perform. Most tricks other magicians have seen already so why not help out instead of treating them like Mormon temple secrets.
Message: Posted by: jcards01 (Dec 29, 2003 01:48PM)
I guess it shows commitment if somebody is willing to get a book or two and learn from it. To just give out information on how something is done to somebody you have never met and do not know if they are truly interested in magic or just 'how did he do it' is hard over the internet.

There are still plenty of books out there that are reasonable expecially for beginners. Royal Road and Expert Card Technique for card performers can still be found at great prices.

Once you have 50 posts and can get into the other areas on this board, more information on how something is done can be discussed back and forth.
Message: Posted by: pbg739 (Dec 29, 2003 02:09PM)
I second what Jimmy says. Are you talking about the Café, or in general. It helps to have a helping hand but this isn't a catch all where you can fill in the blanks. We all started somewhere, and had to learn some stuff. If there is something specific troubling you (an effect to use a double lift in etc) feel free to PM me.

Pete
Message: Posted by: espalding (Dec 29, 2003 02:23PM)
I must admit, I have found most of the help in these forums to be clear and concise, as long as you ask a clear, concise question to begin with. There is no clear cut formula for performing. It's something you have to figure out for yourself, although many of the books/DVDs referenced here can really help. But you can't reproduce all of that material here. Even forgetting copyright problems, if you can make books out of it, then it's too much for bullets in a post on a forum.

So I'm not sure what "real information" you're looking for.

Eric.
Message: Posted by: Daniel J. Ferrara Jr. (Dec 29, 2003 02:39PM)
If money is the issue, you can always take books out of the library. I don't think the reason you are told to buy books is because "that's how I learned". I think it is because it is too easy to just ask, how is this done. If I answered that question every time someone asked me, they wouldn't be secrets anymore. If I see that someone has taken the time to take out a book and learn an effect, then I am happy to assist them on "better" ways to perform the illusion.
Message: Posted by: Steven Steele (Dec 29, 2003 03:16PM)
I guess it's because I would rather type 50-250 words and give the basic concepts rather than copy 500 pages from the book. Call me lazy... :goof:

I guess this is one of the shortcomings of the internet. It can't replace a real mentor or teacher. We do the best we can to help each other out; but I do go deeper to people that I feel are truly looking for it, just not in this particular method...(IMing, e-mails, etc.)

I guess it's just me....

Steven :)
Message: Posted by: Pagangod (Dec 29, 2003 03:25PM)
I appreciate your comments as it helps me see from the more experienced. Cheers.
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Dec 29, 2003 03:30PM)
Magicians are expected to make an investment in themselves. Expressing an unwillingness to read and research an effect is very persuasive in leading others to believe they have exposed a trick to a non-performer. What level of commitment to practice is indicated here?

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander
Message: Posted by: Pagangod (Dec 29, 2003 03:39PM)
Well I just spent 300 dollars at a magic shop in DVD's because I find the books are hard to follow. I am visual and I need to see for myself. So hopefully this is the next best thing to a live mentor.
Message: Posted by: treysdaddy (Dec 29, 2003 03:59PM)
Spending $300 probably got you 9 DVDs. You will quickly be in magic overload if you jump into all of them at once. Try to spend some time on a couple of them so you don't burn yourself out. I know what you mean about DVDs being easier to learn from. It is somewhat like having a personal tutor for the effects. I have read a lot of good advice in the Café about developing a personal style first and then learning effects to go along with that style. Have fun...
Bill
Message: Posted by: "V" (Dec 30, 2003 08:06AM)
As a relative newbie to magic I've experienced the same kind of frustration mentioned in this thread, but to be honest I've never really expected a shortcut. The magic community naturally thrives and lives on secrecy to quite a large degree (especially with the ease of information-bleed across the Web).

What I can recommend is getting some of the books/videos that you hear mentioned all the time - these will give the basic concepts in the fields in which you're interested and more importantly will give you an 'ear' for the way people in this strange subculture communicate.

You'll then be able to continue trawling online sources boards and forums and pick up far more than you thought possible by reading between the lines, understanding allusions etc.
Message: Posted by: Paul Menzel (Dec 31, 2003 12:37AM)
Magic is, by nature, secretive, and the Magic Café has rules regarding exposure. So of necessity, some answers here are vague and assume others have certain knowledge already to fully understand the content of the response and protect secrets from merely inquisitive, prying eyes. However, those rules apply to the [i]public[/i] areas. If you show sincere interest and ask politely, many of the knowledgeable people here will help you out via private messages. It can't hurt to ask. That's what we're here for anyway!

Did you purchase your DVDs from an online store or a local magic shop? If the latter, spend some time there and let it be known that you are looking for a mentor. A good mentor can really accelerate your rate of growth and help keep you on track.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 31, 2003 12:57AM)
You are in a city that has a couple of very active magic clubs. Go to your local magic shop. I know there is one in Denver, because I was in Denver just a couple of months ago. Ask the fellow behind the counter how to get in touch with the local IBM Ring or SAM Assembly. Go to a meeting and get to know the fellows. At least one of them will be a person who will be glad to help you learn.

Once you have demonstrated a genuine desire to learn the art of magic, you can join the club, and many doors that were otherwise closed will be open to you.

And never give up. Magic requires dedication. It requires acting skill. It requires practice.

You learn basic things first, then you build upon them. And as you build and learn, you improve.
Message: Posted by: Alikzam (Dec 31, 2003 03:15AM)
All the good stuff is hidden in books :P Nah I'm just kidding. I find slights difficult to learn from books myself too, but once I know the moves learning and effect from a book doesn't feel so daunting.
Message: Posted by: andre combrinck (Dec 31, 2003 12:13PM)
I see it this way. Someone thought out something that most people wouldn't, and most are fooled by it. Let’s say that you invented a fold-up Coke bottle (Imagine this-once you had enough to drink, fold it up and store it in your pocket. If you had invented it (like the man who invented the plastic ends around your shoe lace), wouldn't you expect some reward?

Be serious. Even if you were Dai Vernon, surely if you revealed the secret it would only be to experienced magicians or for material reward.
Andre
ajcombri@telkomsa.net
Message: Posted by: wanabe 1 (Dec 31, 2003 06:42PM)
Why not post real info?
I feel that you have visited 1 of the best if not "the" best site. There is more info here than one can possibly ever use. Do your self a favor and start reading new and old posts find out your interests, then buy books ,video's,dvd's or whatever floats your boat.
There are many great people here that are happy to anwser any questions after you have made an effort on your part.
I am also a beginner and this site has been very helpful.

Just my 2 cents.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 1, 2004 12:20AM)
Once you get your 50 posts in, you will have access to the banquet room. That's where the good stuff is.

There has to be some standard for letting you in on the good stuff. Posting 50 posts is better than nothing.
Message: Posted by: Shadowzen (Jan 15, 2004 12:54PM)
This does seem to be friendliest, most helpful forum for magicians that I have found on the internet. I have learned more here than any other forum, and I don't even have 50 posts yet.

Another place I'd recommend you visit is http://www.magicvideodepot.com They have tons of videos and while the secrets are not revealed there, you can usually figure them out if you watch the video repeatedly enough. This way, you can just focus on learning the tricks that appeal to you, and you won't have to spend nearly as much money.
Message: Posted by: drgnjames123 (Jan 15, 2004 06:49PM)
I bought Mark Wilson's course on magic and at first by just skimming through it I thought it would be tough. I just picked out some basic tricks and learned them first and then as I read more harder stuff like sleights, I will begin to see these tricks as easy ones. Its easier to learn quick stuff and even that is fun, and then to grow to a more difficult one. Example, do a cut and restored rope trick (easy), then a "ring on the rope" trick (medium)and then a "rope and coat release (a little tougher). here you will also build up a routine for rope magic. "a baby must learn to crawl before it can learn to walk".

Good luck!

p.s. I bought mark's book at boarders for 20 bills!
Message: Posted by: JJDrew (Jan 15, 2004 09:27PM)
I work in a magic shop and almost daily people come in and ask me "the secrets." I had one fellow walk in, come straight up to me, and ask how David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear. He had no interest in performing magic himself. He just assumed that since it said "Magic Shop" on the front of the store that all employees there would spill their guts. I didn't tell him for three reasons. One, who was he to ask? Not a student of magic, not anybody planning to perform, not even a customer, just an idly curious passer-by. Second, that's not my secret to give away. Copperfield worked very hard to put that illusion together, it's his secret to keep or share as he pleases. Third, many people never learned that old adage, "You don't have to say everything you know" and it isn't always easy to differentiate between those who can keep a secret and those who can't, at least at the first meeting.
This is an extreme example, but you get the idea. When people genuinely interested in magic who practice what they learn and intend to perform walk in, I'm much more likely to help them out and share some moves.
On the internet I'd be extra careful. There are countless people who lie about who they are for one reason or another, and those idly curious people are all over the web. I have both recieved and given precise, detailed instruction, but you have to be careful who you choose as a recipiant.
That said, I've found the magic Café to be extremely insightful and detailed and I haven't even used it for that long. It's informative in every area of magic except for the actual mechanisms, and frankly, the actual mechanisms in many cases are the least important part of an effect. Presentation, crowd control, and many other factors are much more important when considering entertainment value.
Message: Posted by: deerbourne (Jan 15, 2004 11:55PM)
From a magic friend of mine (since I haven't had the courage to go yet): The Denver area SAM is very friendly to new people. Both SAM and IBM have regular meetings in the metro area. Someday I'll get a night off and go.

Deerbourne
Message: Posted by: J773 (Jan 16, 2004 03:11AM)
As a beginner in magic, I also encounter the problem of getting people to teach me magic, instead of learning from books or video's.
But you have to start somewhere, I guess.

I enrolled myself into a club, but even they are strict in teaching you stuff.

They have weekly meetings, but when you are a beginner, you can only come once a month (and then not even on nights, when they practice and teach).
After about two years, you have to take a test.
When you pass the test, you can come weekly.
Message: Posted by: MattWayne (Jan 20, 2004 08:28PM)
My advice- just as Bill Palmer stated- get involved in the IBM/SAM. They will help you out so much. Meeting new people who have the same interest that you do will help you in more ways than one.

As far as spending 300 dollars- ha- well it's your money. Ten years ago I did the same thing- whatever came out I bought. The tricks that said: "It rocked the people at FISM, only $20.00- it's a reputation maker!" I bought. I did that for about a year and a half. Then I realized that I had way too much stuff in my closet. I was spending so much on magic. But now I only have a carry bag- with nothing else but the stuff that I need to succeed in performing.

I also started reading- I have an entire room in my house dedicated to magic litterature and books on performing. I spend all my $ mostly on getting new reading material. However I don't buy every book that comes out- I buy what's appealing to my character and performing persona. PM me if you have anymore thoughts on the matter.
Message: Posted by: jbohn (Jan 22, 2004 11:32AM)
I guess it's one of those things. I see the point of not revealing everything on the Internet, but it IS good to have some help occasionally. From what I've seen, people on this site seem to be very friendly and willing to help those that are sincerely interested in learning.

Jeremiah :die: