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Topic: Question about the statement of faith required
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 4, 2014 08:17AM)
Question about the SoF required.

When I think "Word" capital-W Word... I think in terms of the beginning of John.
I also believe (personally) that God may speak through someone, even if only at a specific moment.

Does that not preclude the SoF? I do believe the Bible to be the word of God, but not the "only". I can understand the intent (ex: writings by Alistair Begg may be for God, but those writings aren't biblically infallible), but am struggling with understanding.

Thanks in advance.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 4, 2014 10:56AM)
I personally believe that the statement of faith is too limiting.

By it, none of the Apostles, 1st century Christians, or even any Christians up until the 2nd century could have joined, since there was no compiled Bible at that point. Until then, it was ALL transmitted by word of mouth, and through Apostolic teaching.

Since Catholics believe that the "word of God" ALSO included Church Tradition (capital T), this statement, then, would by it's very nature preclude any Catholics from joining.

I joined anyway...because I acknowledged the expanded definition in my heart.

i WOULD, however, like to hear from any of the official Leadership of the FCM on this issue.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Apr 4, 2014 01:24PM)
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
I personally believe that the statement of faith is too limiting.

By it, none of the Apostles, 1st century Christians, or even any Christians up until the 2nd century could have joined, since there was no compiled Bible at that point. Until then, it was ALL transmitted by word of mouth, and through Apostolic teaching.

Since Catholics believe that the "word of God" ALSO included Church Tradition (capital T), this statement, then, would by it's very nature preclude any Catholics from joining.

I joined anyway...because I acknowledged the expanded definition in my heart.

i WOULD, however, like to hear from any of the official Leadership of the FCM on this issue.
[/quote]

Write them and ask.

http://fcm.org/usa/contact-us/
Message: Posted by: themagiciansapprentice (Apr 4, 2014 01:27PM)
Mike - you left .... so why respond on this forum??

SD Moore 1 - are you a member? if so ask on the FCM forum, but if you have issues then maybe the FCM is not for you. I read it through and saw nothing to stop me joining. We are a Christian oganisation that is non-denominational that can promote the love of God through creative arts. Other Christian organisations do exist that we could have joined, if we were unable to accept the SoF.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Apr 4, 2014 01:38PM)
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, SDMoore1 wrote:
Question about the SoF required.

When I think "Word" capital-W Word... I think in terms of the beginning of John.
I also believe (personally) that God may speak through someone, even if only at a specific moment.

Does that not preclude the SoF? I do believe the Bible to be the word of God, but not the "only". I can understand the intent (ex: writings by Alistair Begg may be for God, but those writings aren't biblically infallible), but am struggling with understanding.

Thanks in advance.
[/quote]
So are you proposing that a person today can speak "the inspired infallible Word of God" at a specific moment apart from quoting the Bible?
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 4, 2014 01:52PM)
Apprentice...I don't recall the forum rules saying that only FCM members can read and respond to posts on this forum.
Message: Posted by: robvh (Apr 4, 2014 01:59PM)
I would agree that the Statement of Faith as written has a distinct "sola scriptura" flavour. I'll just leave it at that rather than start a discussion about how "sola scriptura" is both demonstrably illogical and unbiblical.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Apr 4, 2014 08:28PM)
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, robvh wrote:
I would agree that the Statement of Faith as written has a distinct "sola scriptura" flavour. I'll just leave it at that rather than start a discussion about how "sola scriptura" is both demonstrably illogical and unbiblical.
[/quote]
For some reason that just doesn't seem like you left it at that.
Message: Posted by: themagiciansapprentice (Apr 5, 2014 02:34PM)
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
Apprentice...I don't recall the forum rules saying that only FCM members can read and respond to posts on this forum.
[/quote]

that seems to miss a major reason for this forum and Café ... you are attacking an organisation again after barely being a member

how is that Christian?
how is that going to help your cause?
how is that going to help Catholics be FCM members?

yes, you may have had a bad experience ... but we have heard little about it
instead we get snide comments and vague allegations

quite simply, you'll just stop innocent FCMers using their own page on this Café
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 5, 2014 03:36PM)
Apprentice:

Nobody is attacking an organization. I am making a statement of fact about the statement of faith. It has been concurred by another poster.

Yes, I had a bad experience...I purposely did not name the person that attacked me because I believe THAT would have been unChristlike. I didn't even mention that issue in this thread...YOU did.

I am done posting here.
Message: Posted by: robvh (Apr 5, 2014 04:20PM)
Sorry about the repeated posts above. My connection was flaky so I returned to the page and hit Submit again. Apparently the outgoing signal was fine, I just wasn't getting anything back! Unfortunately, it's too late for me to delete the messages.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 5, 2014 07:18PM)
LOL Robvh!

The multiple posts will also sometimes happen if you hit the "back" button.
Message: Posted by: themagiciansapprentice (Apr 6, 2014 03:09AM)
And of course you posted again ...

two people from the same background of faith is NOT proving anything

has anyone considered what the founders of our organisation had to go through, to distill our SoF down to three simple lines ?? that must have been really tough

I would hate to try to get different denominations to agree to compose a SoF - but we have one that most accept (including many Catholics I've spoken to in the past week), so why change it after 56 years ??
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 7, 2014 06:05AM)
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
I personally believe that the statement of faith is too limiting.

By it, none of the Apostles, 1st century Christians, or even any Christians up until the 2nd century could have joined, since there was no compiled Bible at that point. Until then, it was ALL transmitted by word of mouth, and through Apostolic teaching.

Since Catholics believe that the "word of God" ALSO included Church Tradition (capital T), this statement, then, would by it's very nature preclude any Catholics from joining.

I joined anyway...because I acknowledged the expanded definition in my heart.

i WOULD, however, like to hear from any of the official Leadership of the FCM on this issue.
[/quote]

Great point. I had not even contemplated the Catholicism angle. Very legit point.
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 7, 2014 06:23AM)
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, themagiciansapprentice wrote:
Mike - you left .... so why respond on this forum??
[/quote]
I'm new here. Certainly did not intend to start a fight, nor create friction.


[quote]
SD Moore 1 - are you a member? if so ask on the FCM forum,
[/quote]
No, I'm not a member.
I'm asking here, as I'm new here, saw this "room" and hoped my question would be appropriate.

[quote]
but if you have issues then maybe the FCM is not for you.[/quote]
Maybe FCM is not for me. I don't know, but didn't see my question as having issues.

[quote]
I read it through and saw nothing to stop me joining. [/quote]
I am a Christian who does not always agree with ideas others who self-label as Christian espouse. We all must answer for ourselves, as I see matters of faith and grace.

[quote]
We are a Christian oganisation that is non-denominational that can promote the love of God through creative arts. Other Christian organisations do exist that we could have joined, if we were unable to accept the SoF.[/quote]

What are these other Christian magician groups? I'm not trying to be controversial about FCM's SoF, I just thought someone here would have good insight, since this area is the FCM area of the forum. If I've upset anyone, I apologize; such was not my intention. Sorry.
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 7, 2014 06:27AM)
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, Terry Holley wrote:
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, SDMoore1 wrote:
Question about the SoF required.

When I think "Word" capital-W Word... I think in terms of the beginning of John.
I also believe (personally) that God may speak through someone, even if only at a specific moment.

Does that not preclude the SoF? I do believe the Bible to be the word of God, but not the "only". I can understand the intent (ex: writings by Alistair Begg may be for God, but those writings aren't biblically infallible), but am struggling with understanding.

Thanks in advance.
[/quote]
So are you proposing that a person today can speak "the inspired infallible Word of God" at a specific moment apart from quoting the Bible?
[/quote]

I am proposing an engaged Heavenly Father. As my orig post stated, I'm looking at the matter through the lens of John 1:1-6. My personal belief is there is no limit to God's expression.
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 7, 2014 06:32AM)
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, robvh wrote:
I would agree that the Statement of Faith as written has a distinct "sola scriptura" flavour. I'll just leave it at that rather than start a discussion about how "sola scriptura" is both demonstrably illogical and unbiblical.
[/quote]
LOL..
It does appear to have that flavor.
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 7, 2014 06:36AM)
[quote]
On Apr 5, 2014, themagiciansapprentice wrote:
[quote]
On Apr 4, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
Apprentice...I don't recall the forum rules saying that only FCM members can read and respond to posts on this forum.
[/quote]

that seems to miss a major reason for this forum and Café ... you are attacking an organisation again after barely being a member

how is that Christian?
how is that going to help your cause?
how is that going to help Catholics be FCM members?

yes, you may have had a bad experience ... but we have heard little about it
instead we get snide comments and vague allegations

quite simply, you'll just stop innocent FCMers using their own page on this Café
[/quote]

This must be carry over from other threads, and another time of which I was unaware. I did not see his comment in this thread as "attacking" anything (anyone), nor as being snide.

Is this room something of a "flashpoint"?
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 7, 2014 06:38AM)
[quote]
On Apr 5, 2014, robvh wrote:
Sorry about the repeated posts above. My connection was flaky so I returned to the page and hit Submit again. Apparently the outgoing signal was fine, I just wasn't getting anything back! Unfortunately, it's too late for me to delete the messages.
[/quote]

LOL..my issues spring from using an iPad that sometimes "auto corrects" incorrectly! Grrrr...
:oD
Message: Posted by: jamiedoyle (Apr 17, 2014 12:47PM)
SDMoore - I am curious as to where you currently attend church - not because I want to bash that particular church... I'm not into that kind of thing.
Just curious as to who you are, what your background is and what church you identify with. This may give us a frame of reference in this discussion.
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 17, 2014 10:11PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2014, jamiedoyle wrote:
SDMoore - I am curious as to where you currently attend church - not because I want to bash that particular church... I'm not into that kind of thing.
Just curious as to who you are, what your background is and what church you identify with. This may give us a frame of reference in this discussion. [/quote]

I am very Protestant.
Message: Posted by: jamiedoyle (Apr 17, 2014 10:36PM)
Very Pretestant is too variable... can you be specific?
Message: Posted by: jamiedoyle (Apr 19, 2014 09:50AM)
My bad spelling... let me try that again:

Very Protestant is too variable... can you be specific?
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 20, 2014 10:55PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2014, jamiedoyle wrote:
Very Pretestant is too variable... can you be specific? [/quote]

My church membership isn't germaine to the question, as I see it. If I say "Baptist" or if I say "Methodist" or "Lutheran" (or anything else, for that matter), that would change the answer?

"Protestant" is a good enough frame of reference...or should be. If it isn't, perhaps we should begin there -why would anyone think it isn't?

I'm not here to make trouble. Oddly, there doesn't appear to be an active chapter near where I live, so perhaps this is moot anyway. I thought it a good question.
Message: Posted by: jamiedoyle (Apr 21, 2014 12:20PM)
I think that it absolutely effects the answer... but you seem intent on not letting anyone here know who you are or anyting about your background.
My intent was to try and help - but I will not atttempt to belabour this any longer since there seems to be no interest on your end to provide any information so that you might be helped.
Beyond that if you choose to make the issue moot because there is no local chapter near you - then so be it. Perhaps you will come upon the answer you seek in a different way.
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Apr 21, 2014 12:34PM)
Our pastor yesterday mentioned in his Easter message that there are 2.5 billion people in the world who indicate they are believers in Jesus Christ (I attend Lighthouse Community Church in Kalamazoo, Michigan www.DiscoverLighthouseChurch.com a church that has been wonderful for my wife and me. This is part of the Wesleyan denomination- same denominational college -IWU- where the FCM convention in Marion, Indiana was held prior to moving to Nashville). This enormous number quoted by our pastor made me think about what exactly is a "Christ follower"?

One of pastors I enjoy listening to on youtube is Francis Chan- there are lots of his challenging messages posted there. You can download for free his entire book "multiply: disciples making disciples" at www.multiplymovement.com This book "Multiply" contains a good summary on a number of basic issues: Living as a Disciple Maker, Living as the Church, How to Study the Bible, etc.. and is material designed specifically to lead/help disciple others.

The simple phrase "Becoming a disciple of Jesus is obeying His call to follow" begins the discussion in the book above on pages 17 through 25 (of Part I "What Is a Disciple?").

It would be my hope that the FCM is made up of "Christ followers", active disciples who in following Jesus, at a minimum, try to live their lives lined up with Matthew 22:37-40. I am so far from perfect, but forgiven, and it has helped me to keep the above in mind. :) Love and serve God, love and serve others.

By the way, a belated Happy Easter everyone, He is risen, He is risen indeed!

In Kalamazoo, we started our own FCM Chapter about 2 years ago, has been a hoot. Our next meeting is the second Saturday in May, we are doing an evangelistic Gospel magic and chalk art "outreach" event at Evergreen South housing complex- that was packed out when we did it last year :).
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Apr 21, 2014 01:02PM)
Just a brief follow up- I first became involved with the FCM since about 1965, and I worked for the one of the first presidents of the FCM, the wonderful John de Vries. Most of the early membership was denominationally Baptist, Mennonite, Seven Day Adventist, Assembly of God, Church of God, independent "Bible", and Christian Reformed. Quite a good variety of Christ followers! John's son David became a pastor at the large Wealthy Street Baptist Church in Grand Rapids.
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 21, 2014 08:23PM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2014, jamiedoyle wrote:
I think that it absolutely effects the answer... but you seem intent on not letting anyone here know who you are or anyting about your background.
My intent was to try and help - but I will not atttempt to belabour this any longer since there seems to be no interest on your end to provide any information so that you might be helped.
Beyond that if you choose to make the issue moot because there is no local chapter near you - then so be it. Perhaps you will come upon the answer you seek in a different way. [/quote]

This seems to be a "bristly" room in the Café. The focus shouldn't be on my church. The answer to the question should have nothing to do with the questioner's background, but should be an answer able to stand on its own merit in truth. The question posed is pretty clear. Why you're compelled to make this about me seems (to this newcomer) to be about par for the course in this particular room. Sad. I would have expected just the opposite to be the case.

I'm Protestant. Why that isn't enough for you is a notion you've avoided explaining.
Good day, sir.
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 21, 2014 08:26PM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2014, MagicBus wrote:
It would be my hope that the FCM is made up of "Christ followers", active disciples who in following Jesus, at a minimum, try to live their lives lined up with Matthew 22:37-40. I am so far from perfect, but forgiven, and it has helped me to keep the above in mind. :) Love and serve God, love and serve others.

By the way, a belated Happy Easter everyone, He is risen, He is risen indeed!
[/quote]

+1
!!
:o)
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Apr 23, 2014 12:49PM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2014, jamiedoyle wrote:
I think that it absolutely effects the answer... but you seem intent on not letting anyone here know who you are or anyting about your background.
My intent was to try and help - but I will not atttempt to belabour this any longer since there seems to be no interest on your end to provide any information so that you might be helped.
Beyond that if you choose to make the issue moot because there is no local chapter near you - then so be it. Perhaps you will come upon the answer you seek in a different way. [/quote]


I'm sorry but I find it rather disturbing to insist that someone reveal the church they attend. Do we NOT all belong to GOD!!! What difference does it make if someone is Baptist, Pentecostal, Catholic, Lutheran, etc.? It is NOT important what denomination we are.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 23, 2014 04:04PM)
The ONLY reason it would make a difference to me is that--as a Catholic--I believe that the Bible (God's infallible Word) is NOT the only authority. Since the Bible didn't even EXIST until the second or third century, we understand and teach that the teaching of the Apostles (Holy Tradition---capital "T") is also authoritative...and is important to the faith. Therefore, a restrictive "Statement of Faith" that requires assent that the Bible is the ONLY authoritative source of faith effectively cuts out the largest Christian Church in the world.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Apr 24, 2014 11:00AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
The ONLY reason it would make a difference to me is that--as a Catholic--I believe that the Bible (God's infallible Word) is NOT the only authority. Since the Bible didn't even EXIST until the second or third century, we understand and teach that the teaching of the Apostles (Holy Tradition---capital "T") is also authoritative...and is important to the faith. Therefore, a restrictive "Statement of Faith" that requires assent that the Bible is the ONLY authoritative source of faith effectively cuts out the largest Christian Church in the world. [/quote]

Or as some would say, the ONLY Christian Church in the world (unless the Orthodox Church is given a hall pass)!

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/world/you-are-not-real-churches-pope-tells-protestants/2007/07/11/1183833638282.html
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 24, 2014 03:39PM)
LOL Terry...or at least the ORIGINAL! ;)

Okay...no flaming boys and girls...........
Message: Posted by: jamiedoyle (Apr 25, 2014 05:00PM)
So Danny:
What church do you go to?
Message: Posted by: robvh (Apr 26, 2014 03:12PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
The ONLY reason it would make a difference to me is that--as a Catholic--I believe that the Bible (God's infallible Word) is NOT the only authority. Since the Bible didn't even EXIST until the second or third century, we understand and teach that the teaching of the Apostles (Holy Tradition---capital "T") is also authoritative...and is important to the faith. Therefore, a restrictive "Statement of Faith" that requires assent that the Bible is the ONLY authoritative source of faith effectively cuts out the largest Christian Church in the world. [/quote]

You nailed it, Mike. The Bible simply CANNOT be the SOLE authority given that it didn't even exist when Christ founded His church!

Ironically, such a statement of faith not only excludes the largest Christian Church in the world but it's actually an anti-Biblical statement since we can find in the Bible multiple instances where the apostles instructed the early Christians to stay faithful to the traditions passed on to them. This is precisely where Catholic Traditions come from including the sacraments and the liturgy.

The statement of faith needs some updating. But the danger of going down that road is that it ultimately leads you back into the Catholic Church. That's the danger to satan anyway who I'm sure much prefers fighting a body divided.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 27, 2014 08:05AM)
Rob: I would agree that the statement of faith needs updating, perhaps to read simply "We agree that the Bible is "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16).

This statement is 100% Biblical, cannot be argued, and is inclusive to all Christian Churches.
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Apr 27, 2014 09:52PM)
[quote]On Apr 25, 2014, jamiedoyle wrote:
So Danny:
What church do you go to? [/quote]

A good portion of them. :)
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Apr 27, 2014 10:04PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
Rob: I would agree that the statement of faith needs updating, perhaps to read simply "We agree that the Bible is "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16).

This statement is 100% Biblical, cannot be argued, and is inclusive to all Christian Churches. [/quote]

You are right (imo). I know I have made the mistake of thinking the Bible was the only authority, but the Bible never claims exclusive rights. However, anything that contradicts what is said in our scriptures both OT and NT will always be suspicious to me.

I think a more thought out statement of faith could be created for FCM, or...maybe none at all? Does FCM really need a statement of faith? Just thinking out loud again.
Message: Posted by: jamiedoyle (Apr 27, 2014 10:26PM)
Wondering:
Who, in this conversation is a member of the FCM?

I'll start: I am.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 28, 2014 07:33AM)
My membership just lapsed...due partially to some issues that I articulated in another thread...that I don't need or want to re-hash here.

I think I might be persuaded to stick around...but the SoF has become a bit of a sticky point to me. To assent to it would be to ignore its implications and/or lie. Can't do that.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Apr 28, 2014 09:37AM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
Rob: I would agree that the statement of faith needs updating, perhaps to read simply "We agree that the Bible is "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16).

This statement is 100% Biblical, cannot be argued, and is inclusive to all Christian Churches. [/quote]

So all the following "good to go?"

*******

The Way International: http://theway.org/article.php?page=jan_14&lang=en - The reason the Word of God can be believed is because it is God-inspired. II Timothy 3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: http://www.mormon.org/beliefs/commandments - God wants us to read His words because they help us know His will, and following God's will is always in our best interest. The scriptures contain the things God has revealed to His children through prophets. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recognizes the following books as scripture: The Holy Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price

Unity School of Christianity: http://www.unity.org/about-us/our-philosophy - Unity founders Charles and Myrtle Fillmore studied the Bible as history and allegory and interpreted it as a metaphysical representation of humankind's evolutionary journey toward spiritual awakening. In addition, Unity recognizes that the Bible is a complex collection of writings compiled over many centuries. We honor the writings as reflecting the understanding and inspiration of the writers at the time they were written. The Bible continues to be a valuable spiritual resource for us.

Jehovah's Witnesses: http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/ - The Bible offers the best possible advice on life’s most difficult questions. Its value has been proved throughout the centuries. In this section, you’ll find out just how practical the Bible really is.—2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

Unification Church (Rev, Sun Nyung Moon) - [I cannot find info to prove that this group believes in Biblical inspiration, as the hold that the Bible is "not the truth itself, but a textbook teaching the truth." - http://www.unification.net/dp73/dp73-1-0.html - Many passages in the Bible say that new words of truth will be given to mankind in the "Last Days". What will be the mission of the new truth? Its mission will be to present the internal truth that religion has pursued and the external truth searched for by science under one unified theme.... In addition, the new truth should be able to explain lucidly all the difficult problems of Christianity, since Christianity plays a major role in the formation of the world cultural....With the fullness of time, God has sent His messenger to resolve the fundamental questions of life and the universe. His name is Sun Myung Moon....The Divine Principle revealed in this book is only part of the new truth. We have recorded here what Sun Myung Moon's disciples have hitherto heard and witnessed. We believe with happy expectation that, as time goes on, deeper parts of the truth will be continually revealed. It is our earnest prayer that the light of truth will quickly fill the earth [General Introduction to Moon's "Divine Principle"].

Scientology: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/scientology/users/catechism/part1/ - Scientologists hold the Bible as a holy work [inspired?] and have no argument with the Christian belief that Jesus Christ was the Savior of Mankind and the Son of God. We share Christ's goals for man's achievement of wisdom, good health and immortality. Christianity is among the faiths studied by Scientology ministerial students. There are probably many types of redemption. That of Christ was to heaven.

**********

Just askin'. Comments in [ ] are mine.

Terry
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 28, 2014 11:12AM)
Terry:

These other ecclesial bodies have OTHER issues that automatically make them non-Christian...and they are recognized as such by the majority of the Christian world.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 28, 2014 11:14AM)
But to be honest, does the FCM even check the background of those it accepts as members? Or, do they simply trust that when someone agrees to the SoF, that they are being honest?

What to stop a Mormon or a JW or any of the other groups you mentioned from saying they are Christian (because most of them believe such), and joining?
Message: Posted by: Craig Logan (Apr 28, 2014 12:16PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
But to be honest, does the FCM even check the background of those it accepts as members? Or, do they simply trust that when someone agrees to the SoF, that they are being honest?

What to stop a Mormon or a JW or any of the other groups you mentioned from saying they are Christian (because most of them believe such), and joining? [/quote]

I know a JW, and his contention is we're just different denominations. I have tried to lovingly persuade him otherwise, but to no avail.

I think some dealbreakers consist of disagreeing about:
Who Jesus is (both God and Man)
The exclusivity of Salvation (through Christ alone)
The inerrency of the Bible (without error)

As an aside, I believe the Scriptures are inspirited by God and authoritative in a way beyond other texts. Not to flame or offend, just my belief.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 28, 2014 01:58PM)
Mediocre...we don't disagree on any of it.

As to salvation, I don't want to start that discussion here...as it ALWAYS leads to war.

Suffice it to say that Salvation is BY grace, THROUGH faith. Scriptures gives a bunch of other caveats regarding what is required of us as believers...but since this is a magic forum and not a theology forum...we shall leave that alone.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Apr 28, 2014 03:44PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
Terry:

These other ecclesial bodies have OTHER issues that automatically make them non-Christian...and they are recognized as such by the majority of the Christian world. [/quote]
Mike,

My point is that if the wording in the FCM Statement of Faith is changed from "believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God" to "we agree that the Bible is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness," the FCM is then open to membership that puts extra-biblical revelation on par or above the Bible, which the groups I cited most assuredly do. As I see it, that is one problem with extra-biblical revelation and dismissal of Sola Scriptura. Anyone can claim that their "revelations" and teachings are direct words from God and on the same level as Scripture. Other than the belief in Sola Scriptura, there is really no way to refute extra-biblical revelation no matter how much an individual or a group attempts to claim that they have the final word. It simply becomes one person's word against another.

Terry
Message: Posted by: robvh (Apr 28, 2014 05:34PM)
Terry, I don't think that Mike was suggesting that his short statement would make up the entirety of the statement of faith. It would however remove the requirement to adhere to sola scriptura (which has already been pointed out as being both unbiblical and illogical). Perhaps we should all simply be looking to the Nicene Creed for the answer!

By the way, sola scriptura is no answer to the "one person's word over another" problem you mention. Otherwise there wouldn't be over 30,000 Protestant denominations! Jesus had the answer (no surprise there) and that was to grant authority to the Church he founded -- and more specifically to Peter. This is what the Keys and binding & loosing are all about! Jesus promised to preserve the Church from dogmatic error (though not human frailty) through the help of the Holy Spirit. Thus we can identify that Church by, among other things, apostolic succession and authority. That's how you resolve the whole "he said, she said" problem!

But I digress. Let's get back to the statement of faith. Mike's suggestion is good given that it comes straight out of the Bible. The Nicene Creed might contain other affirming content.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 28, 2014 11:06PM)
Rob is correct. I NEVER recommended that my suggestion be the ONLY SofF. Certainly, the person MUST be Christian. There are basic tenets which one MUST believe in order to be Christian. Sola Scriptura is NOT one of them. In fact, Sola Scriptura is a relatively NEW invention in the Christian world. It is only a few centuries old, in fact.

As Rob has already pointed out, Sola Scriptura is neither logical NOR biblical.

If you believe Sola Scriptura to be "infallible"...prove it. From the Bible.
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (Apr 29, 2014 06:13PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2014, jamiedoyle wrote:
Wondering:
Who, in this conversation is a member of the FCM?

I'll start: I am. [/quote]
Well, I'm not, and I started the conversation.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 29, 2014 09:50PM)
LOL
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Apr 30, 2014 03:57PM)
I was granted "lifetime" status as a FCM member, one of the benefits of getting old. :)
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (Apr 30, 2014 04:07PM)
CONGRATS!
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Apr 30, 2014 04:35PM)
Thanks! I have also been a member of the IBM and SAM on and off since 1963, but did have the money to pay dues when starving in college in the 70ties so some of my magic memberships lapsed. IBM Order of Merlin, etc. then all went down the drain
:( I enjoy the FCM convention the best of them all, but have to miss this year in Nashville due to a missions trip I am going on the following week.

I cannot say enough (as I have said many times before) about the advantage of being a "regular" in our church's weekly Sunday morning Sunday School program. Working on new material every single week, and I don't have to "establish" myself each Sunday. The kids know I try to bring three different effects every week- and I (and they) look forward to it. The kids at church know me as the "magician" (even though my wife and I do lots of other stuff as well at church), and they love to ask me to "show me a trick."

Probably this Sunday I will do Barry Mitchell's Gospel version of "The Magic Box" along with "Daniel in the Lions Den". Haven't decided yet what the third routine will be yet. Yep, you guessed it, I just recently bought these items from Barry Mitchell and David Laflin so I will be trying them out for the first time this Sunday. That's another advantage of being old and throwing little away, I have alotta magic stashed all over the place. Just a joy. Lots of times I find parts of tricks I want to try out but can't remember where I put the other parts needed exactly. Any of you like that?
Message: Posted by: MagicBus (Apr 30, 2014 04:39PM)
Whoops, sorry, none of the above has to do with the FCM statement of faith. I digress. My wife hates it when I do that too (we are taking a walk and she is talking to me about something and I respond back with something else totally unrelated out of the blue).
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (May 1, 2014 09:41AM)
LOL...glad I'm not the only one that does that!
Message: Posted by: mralincoln (May 3, 2014 10:50AM)
The issue being discussed is sugnificant. The Statement of Faith for those of us as FCM members is important. Doctrine matters--and that I just what we are discussing here. We are discussing theology--especially Bibliology (the study of the Bible).

Though I was not a member when it was drafted, I believe it was likely intended not only to provide a unique identify to the organization, but also to "limit" membership to those who could agree to hold to the concept that the Bible (the now-completed canon) is our sole authority. Of course, there are those who hold to different doctrines. That's understood. For them, it would make sense they could form an alternative organization. However, to criticize or to ask an established Christian organization to change its identity to suit their beliefs (or their church's doctrinal positions) seems a bit self-centered IMHO. If you cannot agree to the SoF of an organization, by all means, do not join that organization. It's just not a good fit--for you or the group in question (whatever group that may be).

To be honest, if the FCM did succumb to pressure to change its SoF in such a way that elevated a human being or a church's leader/governing body to the same authority as the Scriptures, I would feel the need to remove my membership.

NOTE: I do not speak for FCM, just my personal opinion publicly stated.
Message: Posted by: jamiedoyle (May 3, 2014 11:24AM)
Very insightful post Dr. Christopher.
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (May 3, 2014 02:24PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2014, Mike Maturen wrote:
The ONLY reason it would make a difference to me is that--as a Catholic--I believe that the Bible (God's infallible Word) is NOT the only authority. Since the Bible didn't even EXIST until the second or third century, we understand and teach that the teaching of the Apostles (Holy Tradition---capital "T") is also authoritative...and is important to the faith. Therefore, a restrictive "Statement of Faith" that requires assent that the Bible is the ONLY authoritative source of faith effectively cuts out the largest Christian Church in the world. [/quote]

Of course the OT did exist long before then. Also the books of the NT were around before then and were considered as authoritative. It was the view that these books had been considered authoritative for a long time that helped shape the canon of the Bible in its final form. Therefore, to say that the Bible didn't exist until second or third century - though technically correct that it wasn't compiled in today's form as one book - doesn't really describe the history of the OT and NT books that make up the Bible.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (May 3, 2014 04:03PM)
But...these books were passed down by? You guessed it! ORAL TRADITION! These books had to be hand copied, which took forever since most were illiterate back then. While you are correct that the books that currently form the Bible WERE always considered authoritative, there were dozens of others that many considered authoritative that were ultimately left OUT of the Canon of Scripture.

It was the authority of the Catholic Church that made these decisions.
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (May 3, 2014 05:34PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2014, mralincoln wrote:
The issue being discussed is sugnificant. The Statement of Faith for those of us as FCM members is important. Doctrine matters--and that I just what we are discussing here. We are discussing theology--especially Bibliology (the study of the Bible).

Though I was not a member when it was drafted, I believe it was likely intended not only to provide a unique identify to the organization, but also to "limit" membership to those who could agree to hold to the concept that the Bible (the now-completed canon) is our sole authority. Of course, there are those who hold to different doctrines. That's understood. For them, it would make sense they could form an alternative organization. However, to criticize or to ask an established Christian organization to change its identity to suit their beliefs (or their church's doctrinal positions) seems a bit self-centered IMHO. If you cannot agree to the SoF of an organization, by all means, do not join that organization. It's just not a good fit--for you or the group in question (whatever group that may be).

To be honest, if the FCM did succumb to pressure to change its SoF in such a way that elevated a human being or a church's leader/governing body to the same authority as the Scriptures, I would feel the need to remove my membership.

NOTE: I do not speak for FCM, just my personal opinion publicly stated. [/quote]
-------------------
SOF:
"I have received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God. I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and He died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins; that He rose from the dead; that He ascended to the Father’s right hand in Heaven, and will one day come back for those who trust in Him. As a member of this Fellowship, I commit myself to: (1) reaching lost souls and encouraging growth in the body of Christ through the use of such talents as magic, ventriloquism and associated arts; (2) diligently be a more proficient performer with these talents; and (3) carefully uphold the code of ethics of the magic profession (related to exposure of magical effects and ideas).”
--------------------
Indeed, doctrine matters!

Reading the first chapter of John, "In the beginning was the Word [capital "W"], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..." I see this as an affirmation of the concept of a triune God, three in one. I see The Word as God's expression. The spirit of God is a living, vibrant thing, unlimited by mankind, and far beyond man's humble understanding. In short, I believe we can believe in God, but are presently, in our earthly forms, wholly incapable of understanding, completely, God and The Holy Spirit. The Word was with God, and the Word is God. I see a rainbow, and I see God's promise. I see the rainbow as God's doing; as God's very expression. A sunrise is God's doing. The sunrise is not God, but it is God's doing, God's will, God's expression. It "is" only because of God.

The Bible, I believe, is the inspired Word of God. Man held the pen while God wrote it. But.. I do not see the Bible as the only expression of God. As I am using the word, "Word", capital W, the Bible is not the only thing God has done or does. The expression of God's will is the Holy Spirit in action. Anything God does is by definition, "infallible" (is it not?). As such, the sunrise is infallible; a rainbow is infallible; a salmon swimming upstream is infallible; all, because they are expressions of God's will, and all are exactly what and where they are due to God's will at any particular moment.

I don't see God as being limited by the Bible. Do I see The Bible as infallible, and God's Word? Absolutely! The FCM statement of faith says it is the ONLY (capital W) Word of God. That's where I have an issue. That's not to say I follow other so called "inspired writings" or believe them to be "infallible". I don't.

Capital W Word of God, is, quite literally (and according to John 1) something I call The Holy Spirit. The Bible is not itself The Holy Spirit, nor is the Bible God...though it is inspired by God, it is God's word, and it is infallible. But as "Word" is used in the Bible itself, in first chapter of John, the Bible is not the "only Word of God" because in John 1, The Word means Holy Spirit. The way I see things, if God wills something to happen, and it happens, then that very thing willed by God is an infallible manifestation of Gods truth, and as such, is The Word in action.

Hence my question, hence my desire for clarification.

No one has quite addressed the question yet, from the perspective that it was asked. I presume the good men who wrote the SOF for FCM meant to keep out followers of Buddha, or Confucius, or mohammedians. Okay. I get that. But it seems to me they limit the word "Word" to meaning ONLY the Bible, and not what the Bible itself says "The Word" actually is, which is The Holy Spirit. They overlooked the homonym. Pretty big oversight.

I am not suggesting that anyone change anything, for me. I just enjoy discussion with THINKING and engaged Christians (as opposed to dogma parrots), and had hoped to find here some that could reasonably discuss.


Does this make any sense? Is what I'm asking now more clear?
Thanks, to all of you who have tried to answer in good faith and without judgement.
Message: Posted by: themagiciansapprentice (May 4, 2014 11:22AM)
The SoF was written to encompass all Christians fifty-four years ago, without going through a lengthy statement that could have been divisive - it wasn't written by lawyers nor Church elders (ie representatives of Pope, Moderators or Archbishops) but by CHRISTIAN MAGICIANS.

It provides an overarching way that we can live together. I've asked in the UK Chapter of the FCM and no-one has an issue with it. Yep, I'm a member. And when I've been at the Conferences in USA (2008 and 2012) and UK (2010, 2011, 2014) no-one raised this as something to look into. Being honest I don't know the denominations of many of the folks I perform alongside. That is pretty irrelevant when I'm spreading the gospel through the creative arts.

Quite simply, if you are going to be taking a denominationally strict viewpoint then the SoF is not for you. There is a separate Catholic group (though many are also in The FCM and not raised any objections.)

We are not lawyers but practicing Christians.
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (May 4, 2014 01:59PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2014, themagiciansapprentice wrote:
The SoF was written to encompass all Christians fifty-four years ago, without going through a lengthy statement that could have been divisive - it wasn't written by lawyers nor Church elders (ie representatives of Pope, Moderators or Archbishops) but by CHRISTIAN MAGICIANS.

It provides an overarching way that we can live together. I've asked in the UK Chapter of the FCM and no-one has an issue with it. Yep, I'm a member. And when I've been at the Conferences in USA (2008 and 2012) and UK (2010, 2011, 2014) no-one raised this as something to look into. Being honest I don't know the denominations of many of the folks I perform alongside. That is pretty irrelevant when I'm spreading the gospel through the creative arts.

Quite simply, if you are going to be taking a denominationally strict viewpoint then the SoF is not for you. There is a separate Catholic group (though many are also in The FCM and not raised any objections.)

We are not lawyers but practicing Christians. [/quote]

Does this Catholic Magician's Guild still exist? It was discussed in the Café 3+ years ago:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=389060&forum=42&11

Seems as if the blog is pretty much inactive:

http://catholicmagiciansguld.blogspot.com/

Terry
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (May 4, 2014 05:17PM)
Terry:

It was never really a very active group. There are only a couple of groups that I am aware of. As near as I can tell, it is largely inactive at this point.

I don't know that it was ever really promoted, never had a printed magazine or a convention.

I wish it did.
Message: Posted by: mralincoln (May 5, 2014 12:18PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2014, SDMoore1 wrote:

Reading the first chapter of John, "In the beginning was the Word [capital "W"], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..." I see this as an affirmation of the concept of a triune God, three in one. I see The Word as God's expression . . .

The Bible, I believe, is the inspired Word of God. Man held the pen while God wrote it. But.. I do not see the Bible as the only expression of God. As I am using the word,
Capital W Word of God, is, quite literally (and according to John 1) something I call The Holy Spirit. The Bible is not itself The Holy Spirit, nor is the Bible God...though it is inspired by God, it is God's word, and it is infallible. But as "Word" is used in the Bible itself, in first chapter of John, the Bible is not the "only Word of God" because in John 1, The Word means Holy Spirit. The way I see things, if God wills something to happen, and it happens, then that very thing willed by God is an infallible manifestation of Gods truth, and as such, is The Word in action.

Hence my question, hence my desire for clarification.

No one has quite addressed the question yet, from the perspective that it was asked. I presume the good men who wrote the SOF for FCM meant to keep out followers of Buddha, or Confucius, or mohammedians. Okay. I get that. But it seems to me they limit the word "Word" to meaning ONLY the Bible, and not what the Bible itself says "The Word" actually is, which is The Holy Spirit. They overlooked the homonym. Pretty big oversight.

. . . [/quote]

Yes, the Trinity is clear in Scripture, but in John 1, the Word does not refer to the Person of the Holy Spirit, but to Jesus Christ. For. It says, the Word "became flesh and dwelt among us" . . . And that He was rejected "by His own." In addition, the Holy Spirit is not merely "an expression" of God, but one of the three Persons of the Trinity (three Persons, one God).

So, the Word of John 1 is, specifically, Jesus. So, I don't think those who drafted the FCM's SoF overlooked this, at all.

As for the question raised about "other authority" or "God limiting Himself to the written Word" -- that hinges on the completion of the Canon of Scripture, and how God speaks post canonization (completion of the compilation of Holy inspired Writ ). *Some believe God's written instructions are not sufficient alone (therefore the need for additional revelation and/or authority). As I understand it, FCM's SoF takes the position that God's Word is sufficient and, therefore, the sole authority for faith and practice. Thus, the controversy.

*Now, this brief sentence is my attempt to concisely encapsulate very significant doctrinal issues (with quite impactful ramifications).
Message: Posted by: themagiciansapprentice (May 5, 2014 12:51PM)
I just found this quote from Barry Mitchell which seems to sum up the true aims of the FCM

"Eddie Davis, long time member of the FCM once told me it’s all about the Big T and little T.

The Big T (Truth) is that we all believe Jesus is the only way.

The little T’s are all the truths that our particular denominations hold dear.

When we stop arguing about the little T’s and focus on the big T God’s work gets done."
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (May 5, 2014 02:00PM)
Mralincoln:

If, indeed, Scripture is "sufficient and, therefore, the sole authority for faith and practice", could you please point me to the Scripture that actually TEACHES that idea?
Message: Posted by: themagiciansapprentice (May 6, 2014 03:22AM)
Or maybe just accept you've chosen not to fit in ..
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (May 6, 2014 10:51AM)
Apprentice: Not a matter of choosing. There is no viable alternative for me, but to say that I accept the SoF as it is written would be a lie...which is decidedly unChristlike (lying).

I am only trying to further the discussion to help the FCM understand that the SoF contradicts the teaching of more than half of the world's Christians...and is, necessarily, exclusionary.
Message: Posted by: stempleton (May 6, 2014 03:36PM)
I'm a member of the FCM, have never been fortunate enough to attend the conferences, but admire many who contribute to the organization. I have no problem with the SoF, but I did note the May 6 devotional from Oswald Chambers' "My Utmost For His Highest," which includes:

"A spiritually minided man will never come to you with the demand-- "Believe this and that;" but with the demand that you square your life with the standards of Jesus." Also, "Jesus said, "Go and make disciples," not "make converts to your opinions." Read the entire passage here:
http://utmost.org/
Message: Posted by: Signor Blitz (May 6, 2014 04:46PM)
Please accept this post with all the grace, humility and respect in which it is written.

There are two different perspectives I am broadly addressing - Catholic and Protestant.
Because of the Reformation (early 1500 to mid 1600's) folks like Luther and Calvin started a movement away from the Catholic church - resulting in Catholics and Protestants. Even though we are worshiping the same God, same Jesus and the same Holy Spirit there are important, fundamental differences between Catholics and Protestants.

The one in question in this thread is the idea of Scripture alone (sola scriptura). This is one (of a few) pivotal elements that that defines Catholicism and Protestantism. The issues that separate these two theological perspectives are much like oil and water. Using the argument of "show me where it is in the Bible" is dangerous for both parties as that approach can backfire on many non related issues that revolves around Biblical beliefs and church traditions (again, these are the defining issues that make Catholics, Catholic and Protestants, Protestant).

We all have the freedom of choice. No one is cohoused to join the FCM. If an organization goes against our wishes, then we have the freedom not to support. We see that in many other (non-magic) related organization who support ideas that goes against the personal beliefs of others. If the Statement of Faith for the FCM goes against personal beliefs, then I would encourage the individual not to support the organization.

A study of church history in society shows that there have been (and continue to be) many attempts to find the common elements of these two major groups. The reality is the differences will remain and they are as important today as they were during the Protestant Reformation. Unfortunately there are many believers (both Catholic and Protestant) who are not either aware of or fully understand the articles of their faith and/or denomination. This usually leads to much confusion and misunderstandings of what their faith is all about.

Regarding the Statement of Faith and the issue of the sufficiency and authority of Scripture. It appears that it was written from a Protestant perspective. That being said, you are correct in saying that it contradicts the Catholic perspective and can be considered exclusionary. Same can be said if you (hypothetically speaking) were to resurrect the Catholic Magicians Guild (or help to create a new Catholic Magician/Entertainer Society). The view point of the Catholic organization on the sufficiency and authority of Scripture would be considered exclusive as well (since it will contradict the Protestant perspective).


If a person was going to try to write a Statement of Faith that fully aligns with a Catholic and Protestant perspectives, the results would be a relative Statement of Faith. Which brings up a whole different topic of relativism v/s absolutism in the Christian world.

Fortunately, this denominational argument has been put in perspective by many fine, reasonable Catholics and Protestants in the FCM who focus their energies on the remaining lines of the Statement of Faith. (I will include them below)

"I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and He died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins; that He rose from the dead; that He ascended to the Father’s right hand in Heaven, and will one day come back for those who trust in Him. As a member of this Fellowship, I commit myself to: (1) reaching lost souls and encouraging growth in the body of Christ through the use of such talents as magic, ventriloquism and associated arts; (2) diligently be a more proficient performer with these talents; and (3) carefully uphold the code of ethics of the magic profession (related to exposure of magical effects and ideas).”

Again, I hope that this is read with all the grace, humility and respect in which it was written as at the end of the day we all (Catholic and Protestant) worship an awesome God :)
Message: Posted by: SDMoore1 (May 6, 2014 07:51PM)
[quote]On May 5, 2014, mralincoln wrote:
[quote]On May 3, 2014, SDMoore1 wrote:

Reading the first chapter of John, "In the beginning was the Word [capital "W"], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..." I see this as an affirmation of the concept of a triune God, three in one. I see The Word as God's expression . . .

The Bible, I believe, is the inspired Word of God. Man held the pen while God wrote it. But.. I do not see the Bible as the only expression of God. As I am using the word,
Capital W Word of God, is, quite literally (and according to John 1) something I call The Holy Spirit. The Bible is not itself The Holy Spirit, nor is the Bible God...though it is inspired by God, it is God's word, and it is infallible. But as "Word" is used in the Bible itself, in first chapter of John, the Bible is not the "only Word of God" because in John 1, The Word means Holy Spirit. The way I see things, if God wills something to happen, and it happens, then that very thing willed by God is an infallible manifestation of Gods truth, and as such, is The Word in action.

Hence my question, hence my desire for clarification.

No one has quite addressed the question yet, from the perspective that it was asked. I presume the good men who wrote the SOF for FCM meant to keep out followers of Buddha, or Confucius, or mohammedians. Okay. I get that. But it seems to me they limit the word "Word" to meaning ONLY the Bible, and not what the Bible itself says "The Word" actually is, which is The Holy Spirit. They overlooked the homonym. Pretty big oversight.

. . . [/quote]

Yes, the Trinity is clear in Scripture, but in John 1, the Word does not refer to the Person of the Holy Spirit, but to Jesus Christ. For. It says, the Word "became flesh and dwelt among us" . . . And that He was rejected "by His own." In addition, the Holy Spirit is not merely "an expression" of God, but one of the three Persons of the Trinity (three Persons, one God).

So, the Word of John 1 is, specifically, Jesus. So, I don't think those who drafted the FCM's SoF overlooked this, at all.

As for the question raised about "other authority" or "God limiting Himself to the written Word" -- that hinges on the completion of the Canon of Scripture, and how God speaks post canonization (completion of the compilation of Holy inspired Writ ). *Some believe God's written instructions are not sufficient alone (therefore the need for additional revelation and/or authority). As I understand it, FCM's SoF takes the position that God's Word is sufficient and, therefore, the sole authority for faith and practice. Thus, the controversy.

*Now, this brief sentence is my attempt to concisely encapsulate very significant doctrinal issues (with quite impactful ramifications). [/quote]
The Word BECAME flesh.
Message: Posted by: Mike Maturen (May 7, 2014 01:05PM)
Signor Blitz:

On your words, we agree!
Message: Posted by: BCE (Nov 21, 2016 02:32PM)
[quote]On May 6, 2014, Signor Blitz wrote:


Regarding the Statement of Faith and the issue of the sufficiency and authority of Scripture. It appears that it was written from a Protestant perspective. That being said, you are correct in saying that it contradicts the Catholic perspective and can be considered exclusionary. Same can be said if you (hypothetically speaking) were to resurrect the Catholic Magicians Guild (or help to create a new Catholic Magician/Entertainer Society). The view point of the Catholic organization on the sufficiency and authority of Scripture would be considered exclusive as well (since it will contradict the Protestant perspective).


If a person was going to try to write a Statement of Faith that fully aligns with a Catholic and Protestant perspectives, the results would be a relative Statement of Faith. Which brings up a whole different topic of relativism v/s absolutism in the Christian world.
[/quote]

Evangelicals and Catholics have made great strides in ecumenical dialogue. And then....there's the FCM Statement of Faith, ostensibly the magicians equivalent of "Take Your Daughter To Work Day" insofar as making Catholics feel like second-class citizens.
Message: Posted by: Angio333 (Jan 28, 2017 02:04PM)
I believe that the SOF is WAY to broad. For example, it would allow someone who denied the Trinity to join. Someone who embraced heresies such as Modalism or Arianism would be able to affirm the SOF.
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Aug 8, 2017 01:23PM)
... you can't make all the people happy, all the time.
Message: Posted by: MSaber (May 17, 2018 06:03PM)
Guys look into Orthodox Christianity! It'll change your life.