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Topic: DIY Floating Table Finished
Message: Posted by: TravisNye (Apr 30, 2014 06:50PM)
I finished building my own Floating Table. I think it came out extremely well considering I did not have to spend $800 on it ;) I am having some issues getting the gimmick length and curve just right to keep the leverage down and keep the table still feeling light. It took me 3 days to build with approx. 8 hrs total into it
Message: Posted by: TravisNye (Apr 30, 2014 06:54PM)
Attempt #2 uploading pic
Message: Posted by: Bill08 (May 1, 2014 10:48AM)
Very nice!
Message: Posted by: mvmagic (May 1, 2014 11:03AM)
Just wait for it...
Message: Posted by: 0pus (May 1, 2014 12:47PM)
What kind of material (type of wood) did you use?
Message: Posted by: mikenewman (May 5, 2014 10:28AM)
Wait! There is a gimmick on these!!!!!!!!!
Just kidding.

That looks freaking awesome dude! Great job!!!
Message: Posted by: mikenewman (May 5, 2014 10:29AM)
You should write an e-book on how you did it. I am curious as I know others would be as well. We all know how they work, it's the building that is the hard part. For me at least...
Message: Posted by: george1953 (May 5, 2014 12:15PM)
Nice job, must be very satisfied with the result, and you saved money.
Message: Posted by: Kbuck54 (May 5, 2014 03:04PM)
Looks as good as the Losander table I spent a Butt-load on. Very nice indeed.
Keith
Message: Posted by: radamwarner (May 18, 2014 04:07PM)
Nice piece of work. Did the choice of wood present any problems?
Message: Posted by: makeupguy (May 26, 2014 12:14PM)
I hate to be the "one" here... but the legs look kind of skimpy and thin for the size of the top... and the upright looks like a flat piece of 1 x 3. If that's not the case, I apologise for the mis-interpretation, but from the picture that's what it looks like.


I don't see that it looks as good as a Losander table at all.


My thought has always been that if you're going to build something that's commercially available instead of buying one, there should be improvements made, either in materials, or style. I don't see that you've improved on anything here but the cost.
Message: Posted by: tristanmagic (May 27, 2014 05:57PM)
Apart from being morally and ethically wrong to build a copy of Losanders table it also doesn't look right !!!
The best thing to do is to destroy it and save your money to buy a Original version.
Message: Posted by: Stanyon (May 27, 2014 07:52PM)
What Michael (makeupguy) and tristanmagic said!

JMHO
Message: Posted by: Jeffini (Jul 18, 2014 09:37PM)
It does look quite nice.
Message: Posted by: AGMagic (Jul 19, 2014 03:31PM)
[quote]On May 27, 2014, tristanmagic wrote:
Apart from being morally and ethically wrong to build a copy of Losanders table it also doesn't look right !!!
The best thing to do is to destroy it and save your money to buy a Original version. [/quote]

Can we please keep the Workshop area free of ethical & Legal discussions? There are places for that. I come here to see what people are building, get advice and to perhaps offer my own insights. If I want to engage in ethical discussions I will go over to Right or Wrong.

Travisnye, your work looks great but I agree that perhaps you should pay a bit more attention to the classic design and proportion of a table. It may be your picture that makes it look a little off, but if not, you may want to modify your design so the table looks a bit more stable.
Message: Posted by: Peter McMillan (Jul 20, 2014 07:46PM)
[quote]On Jul 19, 2014, AGMagic wrote:
[quote]On May 27, 2014, tristanmagic wrote:
Apart from being morally and ethically wrong to build a copy of Losanders table it also doesn't look right !!!
The best thing to do is to destroy it and save your money to buy a Original version. [/quote]

Can we please keep the Workshop area free of ethical & Legal discussions? There are places for that. I come here to see what people are building, get advice and to perhaps offer my own insights. If I want to engage in ethical discussions I will go over to Right or Wrong.

Travisnye, your work looks great but I agree that perhaps you should pay a bit more attention to the classic design and proportion of a table. It may be your picture that makes it look a little off, but if not, you may want to modify your design so the table looks a bit more stable. [/quote]

Travisnye. There is not a single magic building business today that did not start building props until after being inspired by an effect they saw or read about. Flying items have been around for centuries. You just keep on with your R&D and building your own props. Make YOUR props the way you want them to look and perform. Keep refining it.

Good luck
Pete
Message: Posted by: Anverdi-museum (Jul 20, 2014 08:13PM)
I am with you Pete, Keep building and refining. There is nothing wrong with building something for yourself to use...I see way too much criticism in this section.


Chuck
Message: Posted by: Peter Loughran (Jul 23, 2014 08:00AM)
If the person who is going to make a knock off or rebuild their own version for themselves is only right to do so if they bought the original from the creator which usually includes performance rights. Or they must contact the creator and request to purchase performance rights separately.
However just to copy a prop that is not public domain and not pay the creator for his performance rights or the right to use his IP is stealing.
And obviously manufacturing your own knock off for sale is also wrong.

If this table uses Losander's method, and you have not bought the original or have not paid Losander for performance rights, then this is theft, and should be destroyed and not used. However if you are using your own unique method or already own a genuine Losander table, then you have every right to build and make alterations to a prop for your OWN use.

P.
Message: Posted by: ViolinKing (Jul 24, 2014 05:57PM)
I was waiting for Peter Loughran to weigh in on this. Now that he has, can some mods close down this thread? There's really nothing more to say now that Peter Loughran has weighed in.

(I'm pretty sure I'm being sarcastic.)

The legs look a little specious. I figures the way to build a floating table was to use foam core and cover it with veneer. Balsa veneer? Is balsa lighter than foam core? This is one instance where I might agree with the naysayers. If the method is the same as Losanders then I don't think I would feel confident enough to copy it because I wouldn't be sure I got the beat method. I would however improve on the design if I owned the method.

(Some of those tables look weird. The one on the Darren Brown used looked alright although perhaps he added some varnish coloring or aging.
Message: Posted by: Peter McMillan (Jul 24, 2014 08:27PM)
Keep on working on your props. Everyone has knocked off effects. EVERYONE! From Houdini, Blackstone, Thurston, Heller, Keller, Anderson, Robert-Houdin and on and on thru the lustrums. If you have a "name" the wagons are circled. If you don't, you are a blackheart.

Keep on with your R&D, (or number of posts), and some day you can be a "legend" and people will circle the wagons for you, castigating the upstarts who experiment with your props. Or not.

What a world, what a world.

Pete
Message: Posted by: Peter Loughran (Jul 24, 2014 08:36PM)
Oh brother...

Please excuse me Violinguy for sticking up for what's right.
:-)
Message: Posted by: Stucky (Jul 24, 2014 10:12PM)
[quote]On May 5, 2014, mikenewman wrote:
You should write an e-book on how you did it. I am curious as I know others would be as well. We all know how they work, it's the building that is the hard part. For me at least... [/quote]

You sir are what's wrong with magic.

[quote]On Jul 24, 2014, Peter McMillan wrote:
Keep on working on your props. Everyone has knocked off effects. EVERYONE! From Houdini, Blackstone, Thurston, Heller, Keller, Anderson, Robert-Houdin and on and on thru the lustrums. If you have a "name" the wagons are circled. If you don't, you are a blackheart.
[/quote]

Yes so that makes it ok.

Listen guys, the concept of a floating or animated table has been around for sometime HOWEVER It's the gimmick that is the proprietary format. It's Losander's take on Tommy Wonders concept. Build your table all you want but you better come up with a different way to make it float or animate.

Or don't. If you are going to be so cavalier about making your own knock off then you (and all of the others who encourage this behavior) are not ever going to be competition for the working professionals out there.
Message: Posted by: Peter McMillan (Jul 24, 2014 10:43PM)
Circle D'em Wagons boys! The "legends" is on the rampage. And they got warpaint. :cowboy:
Message: Posted by: WayneGonce (Jul 24, 2014 11:09PM)
I see a trend here, those of us who perform full-time as professionals value our ethics more. Dirk Losander is a great friend and has helped me in the past, I'm a proud owner of Losanders floating table, and I will never use another one created by anyone else. What some don't understand is that when you purchase Losanders Table you not only get a well crafted prop, you get his full performance and tips on how to make effect look believable which I believe is gold. Peter Loughran you are 100% correct.
Message: Posted by: Chance Wolf (Jul 25, 2014 07:31AM)
Peter McMillan,
You, and others who think like you, are EXACTLY why I decided to avoid the Magic Café as much as possible.
I just cannot stomach this attitude towards creators.
Rather than waste my time explaining the obvious to you guys...because you will go to no end to justify your actions, think about this...
If original thinkers like Losander never created these wonderful ideas/methods...then there would be nothing to knock off.
But the downside is...you and others would have to THINK FOR YOURSELF!!!

don't bother responding as I will not be back on this thread...your posts pretty much cemented my decision to just leave this *** place for good.

Unreal.
Message: Posted by: ViolinKing (Jul 25, 2014 12:11PM)
In case no one noticed, the topic has moved to the ethics section of the magic Café. I'm going to guess this has been asked before but if someone owns Tommy Wonders' books and decides to create their own floating table, how is that different from what Losander did?

Also, someone else is asking the strict legal interpretation which is that of course the method isn't patented. Chance Wolf has left the building and it seems that the thing he fears is a world where a magician copies Losanders design entirely and then markets it and nobody cares since there is a product on the market that costs less.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 26, 2014 08:43AM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2014, Peter Loughran wrote:
However just to copy a prop that is not public domain and not pay the creator for his performance rights or the right to use his IP(Intellectual Property) is stealing...If this table uses Losander's method, and you have not bought the original or have not paid Losander for performance rights, then this is theft, and should be destroyed and not used.
[/quote]

Why is this not obvious? You gonna [i]build this thing?[/i] Don't come here and tell US!

Doug
Message: Posted by: ViolinKing (Jul 27, 2014 02:09AM)
An invisible hand sweeps through the thread, the hand of Losander's nemesis. Invisible because it may not exist.

I cannot understand why Losander ever sold this. The moralists in every Losander thread argue that there is some greater motivation for us as magicians, a motivating force more noble than money which ought guide us. If it exists then why did Losander sell his effect? How come he didn't just give it away to the most trustworthy souls he came across? The answer, always, is money. Losander wanted the income from thousands of magicians around the globe performing his act, making money enough to buy his tables and then the better one and then the best one. It's a business where Losander doesn't even need to perform to make money. A rise above working entertainer.

Not that it matters, but if Losander has risen above the pay grade and has climbed the ladder to businessman then he is governed by business. Every cheap floating table out there is the potential to express to the world the Joy that Losander discovered and formed into the table. Every cheap knockoff is also a chance for someone to perform it badly. It seems that the issue here is someone might do Losander's bit and might do it badly, but that would exist in any kind of world, including one where the only magicians with floating tables were the ones that paid for it.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 27, 2014 09:30AM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2014, ViolinKing wrote:
I cannot understand why Losander ever sold this...why did Losander sell his effect? How come he didn't just give it away to the most trustworthy souls he came across? [/quote]

These are questions that should be addressed to Losander. I would be curious to see his take on this. And, I might add, not everyone is a money grubber. There are other motivations to market your product. In this case, I cannot speak for Losander.

Doug
Message: Posted by: ViolinKing (Jul 27, 2014 12:15PM)
You mean to tell me Dougini that you own the losander table and didn't specify this information be included in your shipment?

How many reasons are there for someone to market their product? Not many.
Message: Posted by: TheRaven (Jul 30, 2014 06:56PM)
5Magic ethics are only personal opinion. The legal system requires a huge infrastructure. Courts, Judges, Lawyers, federal law, state law, etc. The unique magic ethics has none of that. It is entirely dependent on a collective consciousness and personal opinion.Threads like this are where those discussions occur - but they will forever be personal opinion. Without written law and judges to decide, a system by which these finer points of ethics can be DECIDED doesn't exist.

I support everyone's right to agree or disagree. The debate is the thing.
Message: Posted by: kbmagic201 (Aug 25, 2014 04:20PM)
What if(in my own case) You own an original table, but the table dose not fit the theme of your act, and one builds their own table to better fit the theme in question? I feel in that right you have the ability to do so. If not then we all should just stop being original and just perform what we are given.
But all in all, Great job on the table, it looks great. My only thought is in agreeance with others on this thread. the legs are 2 small and scrawny in preportion with the table. an hour glass shape is better to go with. it looks more elegent and logically looking based on the public idea of physics and equal weght distribution.

Just my thoughts =D
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Aug 26, 2014 01:26PM)
[quote]On Aug 25, 2014, kbmagic201 wrote:
What if (in my own case) You own an original table, but the table does not fit the theme of your act, and one builds their own table to better fit the theme in question?
[/quote]

It's done all the time. Key point being that you own an original table.

Doug
Message: Posted by: SpellbinderEntertainment (Sep 2, 2014 11:19PM)
This “gentleman” is now SELLING his feeble knock-off tables on Facebook! Astonishingly immoral nerve in my book.

And why has no one mentioned that this monstrosity looks NOTHING like a table any audience has ever seen in real life?

“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”
Message: Posted by: makeupguy (Sep 3, 2014 07:30AM)
For those of you who think that magical ethics and real life ethics are different things... I cannot help you.

Stealing is wrong.

You don't need a "huge infrastructure," legal or otherwise, to know that. It is not biblical in nature. it is a simple innate feeling. Legality is not the last word in ethics, and opinions CAN be wrong. If legality was the last world in ethics, then the extremes of the worst of the worlds religions would be fine... and if opinions couldn't be wrong then the same arguments could be made from the other side.

I totally understand the need to build something... either for my own use or just to see if I can. However.. it should be a goal when one does so to make improvements in method or design. You've heard me say this very same thing before... on this very thread.

To make what is obviously in inferior product, by the admission of the original poster, is one thing. But to SELL them is stealing. If you do not believe it's stealing, you need to check your own ethics to wonder why.

ViolinKing... your ethical arguments are thin at best, and it's obvious to me that you don't really believe what you are typing. To claim that every crappy knock off is a testament to Losander's Joy is simply dishonest philosophy. What these knock offs are is a slap in the face to the man that took years to design, learn how to work with the proper materials, perfect the floating gimmick, spend years detailing his performance to a level where he thought it was ready to share.

This thread makes me sad, but at the same time, I sense it's dishonesty and argument for the sake of argument. However, there is a time for truth and when truth is told, the origianl poster is making a piece of crap, and selling it without thought of design, improvement on method, and by his own admission, is selling one that may not work becuase of his lack of knowledge of the orginan's gimmick. If he's selling a prop that doesn't work, that's called stealing.
Message: Posted by: WayneCapps (Sep 4, 2014 10:22PM)
This table uses Vandoren's book/plans on building a floating table. The original certainly looks better in person than the one in the photo. Here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZZtIc6FVLI

But, from an ethics point of view, Losander did not invent this floating table. He did however perfect (not invent, perfect) the gimmick and he sales the best tables on the market. I know this table can use 3 different ways to float, so in my personal opinion, if you take the existing floating table and improve the method (like Losander did) then have at it. While Losander did not invent it, you will catch hell in the magic community because he is well liked and people just assume since he sales the floating table, he must have invented it. I am on the fence on this one. But ethics in magic is a very fuzzy thing! It all depends on who is doing the "ripping off". A perfect example is Mark Kalin/Kevin James Train Appearance. Murray did that on AGT and they ran with HIS trick. But, just try to copy Mark's spiker or Kevin's snow animator and they will go after you. So, if you are well known, the magic community looks the other way. Like I said, fuzzy ethics!
Message: Posted by: Greg755 (Sep 15, 2014 07:50PM)
Here is my take: Many magicians have built their own Sawing a woman in two, Sub trunks, Square Circles, etc,etc. I don't have a problem with that. BUT what I do have a problem with is when you copy someones Prop and then try to get a free ride off their coat tails because of their success. Had you built a 3 legged table and said you came up with your own gimmick that would be great. Now we have an inferior table being bought by many people who because of the cheap price will probably never give it the practice that it deserves, or worst yet the gimmick is off slightly or the weight/balance is off slightly and it wont look as good as an original. When that happens then many people in the audience will catch on and then assume all floating tables are the same old thing...

Losander actually sells a DVD to teach people who have knock off tables to float their tables better. Do you know anyone else that does that for people who have stolen their idea? NO... That is definitely taking the high road on his part. I have a Losander table (just got it) and it is extremely well made and well balanced. It looks like a real antique table made by a real wood worker, unlike the one in the picture above that looks like it was made in shop class. As far as price goes instead of complaining about the high price, just wait till a used one comes up, like I did, then you get a great product at a really good price. In Addition Losander has a trade in/upgrade program. Does the OP have that? Losander has a very high quality dvd that teaches you how to make this effect truly magical. Does the OP have that? Losander can fix or replace your table for a reasonable fee if you break it. Can the OP do that? Well you get the idea... You get what you pay for.
Sorry for the rant, I'll go home now.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Jan 22, 2015 03:55PM)
While Losander's products are nice HE DID NOT INVENT THE FLOATING TABLE!! He actually took is from another magician in Europe, whom I have spoken to. The other magician has proof, which I have seen, of himself in a newspaper article floating a table.

If we are going to "ethical" then Los Ander is not the horse to bet on.

Losander has popularized the floating table, but in no way invented it. He did make it popular.

.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Jan 22, 2015 03:57PM)
One might be careful making brash statements and condemning people when we haven't researched it properly. THAT IS REALLY UNETHICAL.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Jan 25, 2015 09:21AM)
To all the unethical people who are condemning the making of the floating table, I located the article that proves Losander did not create the floating table.

The first floating table, using a zombie gimmick (that I have located) was an unknown Albanian magician in Yugoslavia in the late 1970’s. I am not saying this was the first, just the earliest I know about. He sold one, and gave permission to make them, to a fellow European, from Republic of Slovenia, Vladimir Mikek (Stage name: Wladimir). In 2007 Vladimir Mikek gave me permission to make floating tables. According to Vladimir Mikek, Losander never even asked permission to make floating tables when he moved to the US. If anyone is making a knock-off, it is Losander.

Here is Vladimir Mikek floating a table in 1982: http://slomagic.com/floatingtable.htm . Notice the table pedestal has a seam where it breaks down in two pieces. This guy knew Losander when Losander was 4 y/o!

Interestingly enough, Losander admits the floating table has been around awhile on the Viking Magic website ( http://www.vikingmagic.com/?nd=full&key=1009 ) (Sept. 2007) “The Floating Table has been with us for over 100 years but not until Dirk Losander's Floating Table has there been even the slightest improvement. It is the best Floating Table you have ever seen.”

Now, with that aside, ethics are a personal thing, not a weapon. They vary from individual to individual, and most people hold contradicting ethical views on many things. This is why ethics are not laws. Legally (in the US) you CAN make an exact copy of anything for personal use. Copyrighted material can be altered slightly to make it legal (the amount varies, depending on the article and the time).

In my experience in public and private, the people who yell the loudest about ethics have the biggest problems.

Now if you want to buy a table from Losander, even when he did "steal" the idea (by some of the poster's definitions), I have no problem. If you like him, go for it, if you think his is better, go for it! Just don't perpetuate the lie that he created them. Even Losander does not say this. So get off your ethical high-horse, you have &^%&^ on your face. Also you need to apologize to the young man for being such *** HOLES.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Jan 25, 2015 09:51AM)
SpellbinderEntertainment, makeupguy, and others, you OWE TravisNye another PUBLIC and private apology for your stupid comments. You have not seen or floated his table, and calling it crap from one photo says a lot about who you are inside.

I HAVE the plans for this table (Vandoren's book) . It's lighter than Losanders. It looks like a regular table, which is important. It also looks heavier, which is important.

Also, the wording of Vandoren's book on the origins of the floating table sounds suspiciously like my wording from my web site in 2007. Maybe he researched it himself, I don't know, but he didn't ask me. I don't believe Vandoren asked permission from Vladimir Mikek either . . . and he doesn't sell the book as an ebook because he "doesn't want it to be stolen" (according to a phone conversation I had with Vandoren). I thought that was pretty funny!

Note: While I think Vandoren's plans make a nice table, I do not use them myself. Yes, I think the legs could be wider, but that is a trade-off for weight.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 26, 2015 02:16PM)
[quote]On Jan 25, 2015, KC Cameron wrote:
According to Vladimir Mikek, Losander never even asked permission to make floating tables when he moved to the US. If anyone is making a knock-off, it is Losander..
[/quote]

Wow. Thank you KC. It seems clear now.

Doug
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Jan 26, 2015 05:29PM)
Just a note, Losander did put out a DVD - to get more business. He does fix tables and has a trade in policy. Unless it changed, he offers $500 off a new table with a trade in of another brand. I would get the $75 plastic one made in China and save myself $425 if I wanted to buy a Losander table - he still makes a ton of profit.

His latest table is a 3 legged. I came up with that idea (and documented it on the Café) in 2007-8. I was chastised because it looked like a stool . . . now Losander uses that idea and it is great?? *L*

He sells it for $1500. I can make what he did for less than $100 - that is materials and labor of a professional finish carpenter. I think anyone could be real nice for that type of profit. When you say you get what you pay for . . . I would say HE got what YOU paid for. But, if you are happy to pay for it, whom am I to complain?
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 27, 2015 10:40AM)
You make a lot of sense, KC. I never knew this. I'm sure I speak for many, when I say I appreciate another view on this. I was rather unrighteously indignant due to the number of rip-offs and knock-offs today. This puts me in my place. Sometimes a light has to be shown directly on the issue. I'm glad ya spoke up, KC!

Doug
Message: Posted by: Jomavrick (Feb 16, 2015 08:23AM)
[quote]On Jul 30, 2014, TheRaven wrote:
5Magic ethics are only personal opinion. The legal system requires a huge infrastructure. Courts, Judges, Lawyers, federal law, state law, etc. The unique magic ethics has none of that. It is entirely dependent on a collective consciousness and personal opinion.Threads like this are where those discussions occur - but they will forever be personal opinion. Without written law and judges to decide, a system by which these finer points of ethics can be DECIDED doesn't exist.

I support everyone's right to agree or disagree. The debate is the thing. [/quote]


Well I am new to this, I saw Losanders Table on Magic Geeks (when it was still around) and fell in love with it. I became aquainted with it on Losanders site and purchased the original table. I am working hard on the routine now before rolling it out. It is ingenious and admire him for his creation and feel compelled to give him props for his original creation. I think it is important to give credit of those that came before us for what they have created and especially that they share it with others. It is a quality product and think it is a fair price to pay. In any case I very much would like to see other routines and how others perform. Do you use music in your routine?
Message: Posted by: drstrangelove (Sep 12, 2019 09:56PM)
Um, I'm in a daze after reading all of this. I know the thread is old, but a friend of mine bought his daughter a floating table off of Amazon. I was skeptical, but ate crow because the quality is as good as what Losander sells. But it cam with no instructions.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 26, 2019 09:52PM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2014, TravisNye wrote:
... It took me 3 days to build with approx. 8 hrs total into it [/quote]DIY is a good way to learn making things. If you're interesting in improving your design it might help to start with similar proportions to a baseline object in our shared world - like this: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ravel-Premium-Music-Stand/41223749
Selling a version of someone else's signature and market item is not the nicest way to learn about magic market ethics.