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Topic: Dreck alert - www.25offmagic.com
Message: Posted by: pookndale (Jan 15, 2004 12:06PM)
Finally got the site up. My intent is not to expose (site is structured so layman cannot understand posts), but I am sick and tired of getting ripped off. My guess is you are too. Fraudulent advertising and the release of total garbage is the worst I've ever seen it. Let me know if you think I've crossed the line anywhere, and I may make a modification or two. Thanks. - Bill Nagler
Message: Posted by: Scott Imler (Jan 15, 2004 12:56PM)
Hi Bill
I certainly appreciate your frustration with some effects, but I would say that a few of the effects you mention may have fallen under your axe not because they are bad but because they do not fit YOUR style or comfort level. I may be wrong there.

I would assume that you have owned all of these effects at one time or another? If so how much audience testing was done before drawing your conclusions?

The reason I ask is I have done at least one of the effects, ONE and Only and had great success with it.

Cannot speak for many of the other effects you mentioned because I do not have them but have seen a few performed.

It would be interesting to hear from other members about any success they have had with the list of effects you critiqued on your site. I am sure there are some positive comments on a few, which may show that every trick is not going to please everybody.

That said I do draw the line with some of the claims being made when describing effects in ads. I see your point in recent posts.


Scott Imler
Message: Posted by: pookndale (Jan 15, 2004 01:13PM)
Everything on 25offmagic.com is something item I paid hard dollars for, and cried big-time when I received it. I am unhappy with One and Only - because I was charged $20 for recycled equivoque, allegedly thin gaffs that buy you almost nothing compared to standard issue, and a suspcious-looking envelope.
Message: Posted by: marko (Jan 15, 2004 04:54PM)
I must agree with Scott. In your mind you may feel you are doing the magic community a service, but be aware these are just one man's opinions. Personally, there a few items on your list I've also have enormous success with. You may be saving money for those whose taste run along your lines, but you may also be detering others away from some products they might fine extremely worthwhile. Of course, I assume anyone going to your site would understand that they are your opinions, and like anyone else's, including mine, are not to be taken as the final word.
Message: Posted by: Ron Reid (Jan 15, 2004 05:33PM)

I own five of the items on the list; Bill is dead-on correct about all five.

Message: Posted by: Peter Loughran (Jan 15, 2004 07:12PM)
Hey Bill is entitled to his opinions.

Heck he even bashes my Elevator, which is used by Criss Angel, and other pros and has got rave review from other professionals, but this doesn't mean that the Elevator or any of the other items he listed is crap. Simply put, its his opinion, I certainly wouldn't jump off a bridge if Bill did...that would just be stupid...right?

I have to agree with Scott, that I use a few of the items with great success that Bill rages upon, perhaps he was thinking that these tricks would perform themselves. I guess it is a matter of skill, style and taste, and when I say skill, I mean that one may happen to possess better than another, not saying that Bill lacks skill in magic, or perhaps he doesn't choose to put the time in required on perfecting them, or in the case of my effect, he doesn't have the agility that others have to pull off the effect with success.

I have seen other websites like this and they all seem like a childish rant to me. I would simply suggest that if one wants to save money on a particular effect, then find out what you are buying first before you purchase it. Im sure most people can talk to a dealer they trust or know of another magician that they can trust when it comes to opinion, and go on that, rather than one guy's hate towards marketed magic.

If I looked at Bill's site and followed his advice on the products that I use today and never bought them, and then later saw some of the effects, I would have thought I was a donkey's...well you get the Idea.

Its one man's opinion, take it as that I suppose. But not all he has listed is crap, that's for sure, and the knowledgable buyers will know that.

One man's trash is another man's treasure!

Best of luck with your site Bill,

P. ;)
Message: Posted by: Scott Imler (Jan 15, 2004 08:16PM)
Well said Peter. I am curious has Bill ever released an effect?
Message: Posted by: TiendaMagia (Jan 15, 2004 09:54PM)
Why does it matter if Bill released an effect or not? Do you need to be a writer to publish your opinion on a book you bought?

As a comsumer of magic I applaud Bill´s initiative. We are all grown ups and we know his opinions are not the ultimate truth.

Bill: I think is a good idea if you post reviews of tricks/effects/videos you liked too, so people don't get the feeling that you write only out of anger and dissapointment. Also if people see that they agree with your reviews in general (positive and negatives ones) then it will easier for them to realize if they have your same taste or not.
Message: Posted by: Peter Loughran (Jan 15, 2004 11:07PM)
Yes I agree that writing both good and negative reviews would be a much better and more mature approach to the website indeed.

I think Scott's point is relative however, because from most of the reviews I read on Bill's site, they were negative because he didn't feel that the product was worth the money he paid or because of false advertising. He also states this above.

But if Bill had more insight in what it costs to manufacture and market magic to such a small community, he may understand the price structure a little better, and why magic costs what it costs. Also writing an ad to sell a magic effect without revealing the method is also unfortunately a bad thing in magic advertising, but for many props, it is necessary in order to market a successful product. I think that is what Scott was referring to, and I believe it to be a valid point (although Scott said he was only curious).

If nobody stole creator's ideas or built gimmicks themselves once learning the secret on the creator's wallet, then none of this would be going on right now.

Bill should perhaps direct his attention to this ugly side of magic rather than bash effects publicly out of spite, because he himself is unable to perform an effect with success. This tells me a lot about the writer, and his abilities as a performer, and would have to consider this when reading his other "reviews" on commercial effects.

But you are right, anybody can write what the feel and publish it, and it is up to each individual reader to decipher its value. Just like this post.

Peace out.

Message: Posted by: Scott Imler (Jan 16, 2004 09:56AM)
Thanks Peter, my point exactly you beat me to the punch. It was more based on curiosity and if possible maybe provide a comparison to what he feels makes a GOOD effect. I too would like to see his "pendulum" swing in the other direction for a moment and see what effects he likes.
This may provide insight as to why he hates the other effects so much.

But again to echo Peter's words, he and everyone else here have every right to state their opinions, bashing or hyping.

Message: Posted by: RobertBloor (Jan 16, 2004 10:11AM)

It's interesting to look at the style of the tricks you're panning.

Most of them are all across the board and there seems to be no continuity in what you're trying to perform.

I did that when I was young and naive about magic. I bought everything that looked like a hot trick. I thought that next buy could make me famous.

I was so wrong.

But I'm curious why you buy so sporadically? It looks like you have no focus on performance but rather are just desperately trying to find a trick that will perform itself?

Robert Bloor
Message: Posted by: Samuel Catoe (Feb 13, 2004 12:52AM)
I really have to respond to some of the items that I saw on Mr. Nagler's site.

Out of Body - Any stack could be used with this. Could you have really thought of this yourself? If you did, sell the one you have and make your own. If not sell the effect anyway since you don't like it. Personnally I would pay $25 just to avoid the work if I wanted to perform this effect.

Double Vision - If you want MOAB, buy it. I have fried magicians and laymen alike with a rudimentary presentation of this. BTW, MOAB won't stand up to close scrutiny either. None of the gaffed book tests will. Just the nature of the beast.

Just Passin Thru - I gave this to a friend for Christmas and feared he would get no use from it. I knew was wrong when I got the chance to see him perform it in his restaurant. Excellent effect and well worth the money I paid for it.

Hundy 500 - I have seen this performed by someone other than Wilson. It made my eyes freak out every time I saw it. Even after I knew the method, my eyes still didn't believe what they were seeing.

Heirloom - If I didn't already have a presentation I liked for this principle, I would buy this one.

Completely Cold - Cold Reading itself is mostly just psychobabble. Even so I didn't care for this myself.

Cigarete up the Nose - I KNEW a jacket was required just by thinking for a minute or two. That should be common sense.

Message: Posted by: Rob Johnston (Feb 13, 2004 02:40PM)
Good site.

I agree with posting both sides of the coin. Positive and Negative.

thanks for the link.
Message: Posted by: Bob Johnston (Feb 14, 2004 09:22PM)
Scott Imler:
I think Bill Naglers "pendulum" does swing the other way. The second half of his site is mostly positive revues.

When I first saw Bills website I found it to be very cynical in tone. I did find some of his cements a bit odd. The silver bullet (light) I purchased, was only $27. I have never had anyone find anything odd about the book when they examine it after the trick. I should mention that I use it with a spectators paper money for the best effect.

On the other hand, Bills revue of the Predator (a very positive revue) was very good. Albeit, Bill seems to describe his routines in a “lets get to the finish as fast as possible” way. I have adopted some of his recommendations in my handling of the Predator, and I am grateful.

When you consider all the glowing revues we have thrown in our faces at websites selling magic, Bills cynical take on things is a welcome change.

Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Feb 28, 2004 12:57PM)
I'm glad that Bill is now posting a lot of positive things on his site as well as his negative reviews.

I happen to have known Bill Nagler for over 30 years. I don't agree with him about everything, of course. But I do have a lot of respect for his opinions, as does Gene Anderson. I can assure you that he did not create this web site out of "spite." He truly does believe that there is a lot of magic being sold today which is simply not worth the money. He does want to help other magicians save money.

Bill performs a good many effects with success. He certainly is an amateur, but he's a very good one. He knows a great deal about magic history. And it bothers him when someone takes an old idea and repackages it as their own. His criticism of Hundy 500, for example is not that it doesn't look good. It's that the trick was invented by Pat Page. Gregory Wilson's handling is excellent, but Bill feels that Wilson does not know how to properly end tricks. That he doesn't "release the tension" that the magic builds up in an audience. I agree that this is very important. Perhaps vitally important. Gene Anderson also understands this. As did Fred Kaps and Don Alan.

If you don't think about properly ending your tricks, I suggest that you start right now. I can't think of anything else that will improve you as a performer more. Study Don Alan in particular. Look at every tape of him performing that you can. He was the master.

Bill's website is here to stay. It is just his opinions. If you diasgree, that's your perogative. And, you are free to do a web site of your own. Bill spends a lot of money buying magic, a lot of time thinking about it, and he holds strong opinions. You don't have to agree. And if he makes you think... that's probably good. He's made me think for a lot of years.

Dennis Loomis
P.S. I did not know that he was going to mention me on his site. Thanks goodness it was in the positive section. But, if someday I release something he doesn't like, and he "hammers" me, I'll live. And I'll still respect his right to have an opinion.