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Topic: How does a Christian perform "mind reading" or "metal bending?"
Message: Posted by: DavidKenney (Jun 21, 2014 09:30PM)
So I have been gravitating more towards mentalism lately - for me - it seems to be a more pure form of magic relying soley on a few props and a whole lot of gravitas. But the struggle has been - how does a "Pastor" present this character?

You can't say, "none of this is real" that just cuts the legs out from under the effects and so much of mentalism is this "show" of the performer being able to bend object with their mind or to be able to discern thoughts... it's very... spiritual and new age.

Granted, Derren Brown never bills himself as a mentalist or being able to read minds, but I don't think people believe him. Has anyone here had any success marrying believable mental effects with their faith?

Especially without being corny?

Thanks in advance.
Message: Posted by: themagiciansapprentice (Jun 22, 2014 03:08AM)
Don Townsend lectured on three effects at the 2012 Conference
Message: Posted by: DavidKenney (Jun 22, 2014 06:24PM)
Derren Brown said in an interview...

"If you believe that God created us - then surely the mind is the pinnacle of that creation"
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jun 23, 2014 08:44AM)
There are numerous threads dealing with this discussion here in the FCM and Gospel Magic area of the Café. My suggestion is to do a search.

Hope this helps!

Terry
Message: Posted by: Terry Holley (Jun 23, 2014 09:15AM)
For example: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=1223&forum=16
Message: Posted by: DavidKenney (Jun 23, 2014 10:04AM)
Thanks! I will! :cheers:
Message: Posted by: stempleton (Jun 23, 2014 04:22PM)
I always do a disclaimer before the program, but I routine my "mindreading" effects carefully. For example, I did a version of MPS for a Palm Sunday program, and I tied it in to Isaiah's prophesy of the Savior riding a donkey. I plan on doing a book test in the future by featuring it as an illustration of how easily we are deceived. It can be dealt with, with proper scripting.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Jun 23, 2014 06:37PM)
Perform mental magic instead of mentalism.
Message: Posted by: Ed_Millis (Jun 24, 2014 12:44AM)
In my opinion, such as it is, a Pastor or other minister standing in front of his own congregation must be very careful. These people know you and trust the "you" that they know. If you present a "character" that is out of sync with the man they trust, you could set up some doubts and fears that won't easily go away. Or you might stand to lose some credibility. A travellinv evavgelist wouldn't necessarily run into this - his character is the only one they know.

You might try coming at it from the aspect of theater. In any good theatrical production, you know the characters are real people -- you may even know some of them personally. And you know that character on stage is not who they really are, not any more than the cardboard tree is real. But if the theater is good, all that fake stuff will combine together into something that can affect you deeply and make you think like nothing else can.

Ed
Message: Posted by: DavidKenney (Jun 25, 2014 04:25PM)
Well, the other way around it is - mentalism works better with strangers. And so technically a stranger doesn't need to know what I do for a living. Right? Most people who do walk around or who do table hopping don't start off with, "Hi, my name is Mark. I am a tax attorney, but I also do magic. Would you like to see some?"

I think the best bet - is to keep my "character" separate - and if I ever perform for friends, then I stick to card tricks. :cheers:
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Jun 26, 2014 07:57PM)
What kind of a Pastor would not want to take every opportunity to represent God? I thought being a Pastor was a calling, not a living. So, being a Pastor is just a job to you?
Message: Posted by: DavidKenney (Jun 28, 2014 12:56AM)
...is that a serious question or are you trying to play devil's advocate?

Of course it's a calling and not "just a job" to me. But I also have hobbies and I have a social life that allows me to relax and unwind. Being a minister is a sacrificial life and so I have to work into my life moments of down time to allow myself to recharge, otherwise we experience something called "burn out." 90% of pastors report working between 55 to 75 hours per week and 50% feel unable to meet the demands of the job. Almost 1,700 pastors leave the ministry each month and 50% of the new ministers starting tomorrow won't be around in 5 years. Those are frightening statistics! Perhaps Magic is how you make your living and you're a professional, and that's your "calling" but for me it's an escape and it's a way to force my mind to think about a different topic for a few hours.

"What kind of a Pastor would not want to take every opportunity to represent God?" well, I guess my answer is a selfish one. I am a broken sinner who admittedly fails to seize "every opportunity." Believe me, I pray every day that God would make me a better man, a better Father and a better shepherd, but for some reason my growth as a disciple is a slow one.

Believe me, I wanted to be James Bond or Spiderman when I grew up, but God had different plans. He keeps telling me that He can use me and that "His grace is sufficient for me" and I just have to trust that He knows what He's doing.
Message: Posted by: Ed_Millis (Jun 28, 2014 10:20AM)
Ah - performing for strangers is a totally different story. There, you are only bound by the limits you and God have set. I do shows and never once mention God. That's not why they hired me and that's not why I'm there.

Kudos to you for running from burn-out! I've heard those statistics before and it truly is frightening and sad.

Ed
Message: Posted by: markofmagic (Jul 9, 2014 11:17AM)
When I do my mind reading type show in a church setting after I am finished I explain that I can't really know someone's mind but God knows our ever thought and I move into a short sermon about an all knowing God.
Message: Posted by: robvh (Jul 23, 2014 11:36AM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2014, DavidKenney wrote:
90% of pastors report working between 55 to 75 hours per week and 50% feel unable to meet the demands of the job. Almost 1,700 pastors leave the ministry each month and 50% of the new ministers starting tomorrow won't be around in 5 years.[/quote]

Not to get off topic but I think you've hit on one of the reasons the Catholic Church promotes celibacy for its priests. It's a very demanding vocation and the demands of caring for both a flock and a family often means that one or both will suffer (neither outcome being desirable).

I have a tremendous respect for these men and once I get settled in my new home my intention is to invite local priests to my home for a nice meal, a friendly visit and maybe a little magic. Now you've got me thinking about those dedicated nuns too...
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Aug 5, 2014 04:07PM)
Some magicians give me a lot of flack but at the beginning of our show we basically say, "everything you see me do tonight is fake. It's not real..." That openness generally puts people at ease to enjoy the show more in my experience, and to listen to my Gospel presentation later because of how open I am with them. We tend to work with high school students for the most part.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Aug 5, 2014 04:08PM)
I should say at the beginning after the intro.
Message: Posted by: Bryan Saint (Aug 14, 2014 11:22PM)
One thing to keep in mind, is that you don't have to make every routine in your show a gospel presentation. I remember seeing a friend a while back doing that and, from my perspective, it made the crowd less receptive to it. My show is 100% clean, no matter where I perform. When I'm in a church, I don't do a gospel presentation unless I'm specifically asked to do so. And when I do, it's the next to the last trick. I saw Andre Kole do that and it was pretty powerful.

As far as how a pastor would present this character, determine what kind of character you're looking for. I don't think you have to say, "none of this is real", but by saying something to the effect of, "Things like this are used to deceive a lot of people in a bad way. Deception is ok, as long as it's 'honest'", I think you get the best of a few worlds (something funny, great trick, not debunking what you're doing).

Good luck with it, David!
Message: Posted by: Thehedge (Aug 17, 2014 02:25AM)
When performing mentalism, I never claim to read minds. At church or any where. Manipulation of the mind does not need to be dishonest. I usually perform concepts of mind reading.

For example, "I always wished I could read my wife's mind; it would make finding a place to eat much easier. Have you ever wondered what it would feel like to read minds? I could imagine it would look something like this... (perform effect) ... on the other hand, maybe there is a reason why we can't read minds."
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Jan 30, 2015 07:24AM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2014, Bryan Drake Show wrote:
Some magicians give me a lot of flack but at the beginning of our show we basically say, "everything you see me do tonight is fake. It's not real..." That openness generally puts people at ease to enjoy the show more in my experience, and to listen to my Gospel presentation later because of how open I am with them. We tend to work with high school students for the most part. [/quote]


yeah, maybe not say it's fake.
it kills a lot of the mystery that goes with this.

maybe something like,

"your about to witness and amazing special of slight of hand, that any magic you may see here tonight has been well thought out and practised tirelessly to insure that you are brought a highly professional show with tricks and illusions that are mind blowing that will leave you asking yourself... how the heck did he do that".

everyone knows it's fake.
when I do one on one tricks, I'm always asked how I did something.
I tell them, lots of practice and if I told you, they will cut out my tongue and laugh.

people respect that and know it's not real.

kids on the other hand.

maybe impressing they are illusions.

I thinks it's kind of taking the fun out of it by saying, hey this is fake, here is half an hour of fake stuff.

that's just me.

it's only one opinion lol
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Jan 30, 2015 07:31AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2014, DavidKenney wrote:
...is that a serious question or are you trying to play devil's advocate?

Of course it's a calling and not "just a job" to me. But I also have hobbies and I have a social life that allows me to relax and unwind. Being a minister is a sacrificial life and so I have to work into my life moments of down time to allow myself to recharge, otherwise we experience something called "burn out." 90% of pastors report working between 55 to 75 hours per week and 50% feel unable to meet the demands of the job. Almost 1,700 pastors leave the ministry each month and 50% of the new ministers starting tomorrow won't be around in 5 years. Those are frightening statistics! Perhaps Magic is how you make your living and you're a professional, and that's your "calling" but for me it's an escape and it's a way to force my mind to think about a different topic for a few hours.

"What kind of a Pastor would not want to take every opportunity to represent God?" well, I guess my answer is a selfish one. I am a broken sinner who admittedly fails to seize "every opportunity." Believe me, I pray every day that God would make me a better man, a better Father and a better shepherd, but for some reason my growth as a disciple is a slow one.

Believe me, I wanted to be James Bond or Spiderman when I grew up, but God had different plans. He keeps telling me that He can use me and that "His grace is sufficient for me" and I just have to trust that He knows what He's doing. [/quote]


you sir, inspire.

I think there is a way to do it and have fun with it in a innocent way and making sure people know that it's a trick and it's not really mind reading.
why not even grab a few of the gys and get them to say the magicians oath and make a fellowship bonding thing.

that way you get to help grow some guys, get close to them, have fun, not be drained, have people to work out tricks with.
have a Magic show at church and do it with those guys.
2 or 3.

that way you get to have your escape as well as expanding the gifts.

I'm Sure God will point those guys out (and make it guys, have some guy time and laughs)
Message: Posted by: katyannmarie (Feb 15, 2015 02:18PM)
I find this discussion very interesting on two fronts.
The first is pretty confusing to me. It seems from this thread and others I've read that there is a lopsided (in my opinion) view that there is a fear that people think there is something other than a trick involved with magic shows. I don't understand why a disclaimer of any kind needs to be put out there that "these are just tricks" to begin with. I think that disclaimer insults the intelligence of the audience. Although there may be some in every crowd that are clueless about reality, the burden is on the naysayer to give evidence that something is wrong with what is being said or done. No matter what one does, there will be critics. I have to go back to both Jesus and Paul who did what they did and said what they said without apology or preemptive comment for fear of someone misunderstanding. Both at times explained themselves or clarified a point afterwards, but only to those who honestly had questions. Jesus was as offensive to religious people questioning his choices in his answer to the critiques as he was in what was originally done. If someone is actually confused about what's behind a trick, they surely can be educated about it later when time can be spent answering the concern. That's what Paul did when some accused him of saying a person can do whatever he wants because he is free. I just don't get the fear of offending or confusing others that so many seem to have.
I also find the discussion of calling/burnout/hobbies interesting. One can always tell who is called to a profession as opposed to someone entering a profession for other reasons. The more demanding a profession, the more of a need for down time and hobbies to stay balanced. Jesus took down time even when people had pressing needs. It's obvious that Paul had interest in sports by all the analogies he made to boxing and training and running and the Olympics. It's not selfish to have your needs met. Even machines break down without proper maintenance. People aren't machines. Paul was worn out by the extreme demands of his calling and it was the calling that kept him going. Imagine the rigors without the calling, and it's no wonder so many quit. Anyone in any of the fields dealing with people are going to suffer if they are in it for any other reason than serving people in whatever capacity. Religion won't be any less demanding especially if in it for the wrong reasons.
Message: Posted by: Mike Ince (Feb 18, 2015 11:53PM)
The Apostle Paul and Barnabas performed a work of healing as recorded in Acts chapter 14. The locals, with religious fervor, called Barnabas "Zeus" and Paul "Hermes" and intended to sacrifice to them.

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them..."

These two men of God were upset that their good works had led to idolatrous confusion. They clearly stated they were just men. I think this passage is germane to our discussion. Your thoughts?
Message: Posted by: Russo (Feb 19, 2015 10:21AM)
When we do anything "mind reading"(mental epic-etc.) we usually mention "if I really could do this" - what does OUR LORD feel when he DOES hear-what YOUR THINKING.
Message: Posted by: RagnarzA (Feb 19, 2015 11:21AM)
Great thread
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Feb 20, 2015 01:25AM)
I tell people that I can not say how I do what I do, but none of it is real and it's all for the entertainment of people as God gifted me to do so
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Feb 20, 2015 01:26AM)
For his glory not my name sake :)
Message: Posted by: Mike Ince (Feb 20, 2015 10:12AM)
1 Corinthians 2:11. Your thoughts are safe from telepathists. "Who knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of that man within him? Even so, the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."

So no one can eavesdrop into your mind, but you can sometimes give your thoughts away by your actions. Of course, claiming to read body language and such is still untrue in most cases (Patrick Redford's Prevaricator aside). Some mentalists choose claims that seen less harmful to the audience. Still, if you fib to an audience before sharing the gospel, you might experience distrust from them. The Santa Clause Effect. Thankfully, the gospel has that ring of truth about it.

I struggle with doing mentalism as a Christian, but I tell my audiences I use magic, suggestion, other psychological mind games, and sometimes I just lie. I'm honest about my lying.That's better than some of the self-proclaimed faith healers you might see.
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Feb 20, 2015 08:43PM)
I like to say things like, this is just phycology but in a form of entertainment.
not that I do much of it, I am still trying to figure it all out.
granted I also say that about my card tricks because it's funny as well.
Message: Posted by: katyannmarie (Feb 23, 2015 02:56PM)
The example of being taken for gods makes my point. They didn't make any disclaimers before the miracle, but cleared up misunderstandings afterwards. They also weren't doing magic tricks. If they were, they would have billed themselves as magicians and no one would have mistaken them for gods.
Message: Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 1, 2015 09:04PM)
[quote]On Feb 23, 2015, katyannmarie wrote:
...They also weren't doing magic tricks. If they were, they would have billed themselves as magicians and no one would have mistaken them for gods. [/quote]

Somehow even when I bill myself as an entertainer there are people who think I have supernatural abilities I don't actually possess. Some routines are so strong, they imply that there's no answer except a strange, hidden power within me. I wish I could say that billing oneself as a magician clears up the matter for every viewer, but in my case it hasn't. I stop my own pulse (and might use suggestion to stop someone else's without coming near them), I tell people thoughts they haven't written down, I remotely control someone else's body while her eyes are closed, people feel me touch them from far away, and I influence and predict people's behavior. It's all a show, not a bit of it is real, but it feels real to people. I don't present these things in a dark, creepy way, though I could. Even if I say I'm a trickster, people see these convincing feats that suggest otherwise.

Regardless of what you claim verbally, your effects can speak louder. That's something to think about.
Message: Posted by: harris (Mar 2, 2015 05:35PM)
During programs I make reference to slight of Gand and mind.
Only God can do the supernatural.

At some gigs I make reference to Simon the sorcerer who tried to buy the Apostles gifts
Peter and the others did mince words in response.

Harris Aka Dr. Laugh
Still too old to know it all
Message: Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 3, 2015 11:59AM)
I think the greatest power Satan has is that of lying. I've met both Christians and non-believers who think psychics have aupernatural abilities they don't actually possess. The population, Christian and otherwise, is unaware of skills like cold reading.

If you present yourself as a psychic, you don't have to have powers. You only have to convince the frail sons of Adam that you have powers.

You don't have to communicate with the dead to draw people to yourself and away from God. You only have to convince people who are willing to believe you that you're a medium.

Simon wasn't a real sorcerer. I'm persuaded that no one ever has been. Just because it wasn't real doesn't mean it was morally inert. Drawing people away from God to seek advice from some oracle is evil regardless of the legitimacy of the oracle. When this subject gets touchy for me is when we examine the motives sorcerers have for convincing people that they're real. The desire to feel superior, the desire to be respected and maybe feared, and feeding people's desires to see miracles that God has not ordained are things that can hit too close to home for many magicians. It's a quandary, and if you're obsessive like me it can lead to anxiety.
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Mar 4, 2015 04:57AM)
[quote]On Feb 23, 2015, katyannmarie wrote:
The example of being taken for gods makes my point. They didn't make any disclaimers before the miracle, but cleared up misunderstandings afterwards. They also weren't doing magic tricks. If they were, they would have billed themselves as magicians and no one would have mistaken them for gods. [/quote]

Valid point I do believe
Message: Posted by: Zlwin Chew (Mar 8, 2015 08:00AM)
When asked to explain Magic, I'd always say, "Magic is science unexplained."
Message: Posted by: Ed_Millis (Mar 10, 2015 03:35PM)
If you're going to do this, you've got to make some decisions.

Either you're going to deliver a performance stripped of every bit of mystery and suspense, or you're going to perform routines that go beyond the edge of someone's understanding.

If anything you do can be perceived by someone somewhere as "you have to possess supernatural abilities to do that", then you either carefully vet your audience and send all the superstitious ones home, or you let it fly and make them deal with whatever is left to rattle around in their minds.

(I'm presuming a show for the general public and advertised only as entertainment.)

You must go to God and work this out. And then trust Him to guide you should you begin to cross a line.

For me, I intend to do what I can to pop fuses and blow mental circuits. I'm satisfied that anything I do will be perceived as entertainment only, served with heaping loads of mystery, by all but the most superstitious. And I am no more responsible for those people and their irrational fears than they are for any issues I have. I will do nothing to make them believe I possess supernatural or paranormal abilities; I can't help it if they are naturally inclined that way.

Ed
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Mar 12, 2015 02:18AM)
I was watching the demo for bandwidth and I got an amazing revelation

we are performers, entertainers.
Magic as a whole messes with peoples minds, they see the impossible become possible.
we know it's fake, they know it's fake, we know that they know that we know it's fake.
but it doesn't take away from the effect and what was done.

we work with smart people now, the internet will destroy our industry if we don't keep ahead of it (blast those dam you tube brats)

there is no difference from the theory of all magic.
be is a card trick, silk trick, thump tips even the saw a person in half thing to mentalism and bending of spoons and what have you.

we can't get religiously caught up in what is right and wrong, it's an industry of deception and secrets.

the CIA and FBI have theirs, we have a history of them dating as old as doctors and builders.

if you need to justify any form of magic, clearly you shouldn't be doing it.
if you feel right about it and don't need to justify what you do in the forms of magic you do.... awesome.

I for one feel I don't need to justify myself for the sake of religion.
my relationship with God and man isn't dictated by this art but dictated by my heart.

if I blow a persons mind with any trick, my job as an entertainer is done, if I fail to use that as a way to talk about God in any form, as a christian I have failed the great commission calling to all that follow Christ.
Message: Posted by: Russo (Mar 12, 2015 08:29AM)
Romans 12:6
Message: Posted by: Ed_Millis (Mar 13, 2015 04:59PM)
[quote]if I fail to use that as a way to talk about God in any form, as a christian I have failed the great commission calling to all that follow Christ[/quote]
That totally depends on the situation. If I'm hired to do a birthday party or a library show, using that as a platform to preach when that's not expected is dishonest. In a spur of the moment close-up situation, that might be a very good idea.
[quote]Romans 12:6[/quote]
Out of context. I don't see sleight of hand or entertaining with clever deceit among the spiritual gifts. And vs 5 indicates he's talking about how we minister to each other within the body.

Some people have difficulty knowing they can draw a person or a crowd and not preaching. Others have difficulty with magic as entertainment being based in lying to the audience. And there's some who struggle to reconcile the illusion of super-normal or even supernatural powers presented to those who don't have the maturity to simply enjoy it as a mysterious illusion.

Get alone with Jesus and work these things out. If you must, call on a mature trusted advisor. Don't do things that twist your conscience in a knot. And don't impose your calling or limitations on every other Christian. This is between me and God first, then my church and earthly families. And likewise for all y'all. "Let the peace of God rule (be your umpire)".

Ed
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Mar 13, 2015 06:56PM)
Ed

I suspect that was implied and common sense dictated the obvious.
but thank you for pointing that out and clearing that up.

this is a gift from God in what we do, it's also a calling.
as all gifts are from God and this is a gift and talent that we can use for God.

so not really out of context
Message: Posted by: MediocreMagician (Apr 1, 2015 07:56PM)
Some interesting thoughts shared here, great to hear from a variety of different angles. As mentioned above, people are a lot wiser to how tricks are done now and those that aren't are only a quick google search away from an answer. Discretion is key with your audience. I always just look through the effects and ask myself whether I think they could be taken the wrong way or cause someone to question their faith/belief. At the end of the day everyone is different though. Some people love the feeling of wonder, others want to know the secret while a few might attach supernatural abilities to performances. Scripting is very important, personally I'd never claim to have special abilities. Depending on the effect it's either something that has taken lots of practice/training or something I'm just not sure why I can do. Keep the input coming, it's all great intel!
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Apr 4, 2015 07:57AM)
I don't think it's fair to take away the mystery away from magic.
it's honest deception.
I've only met 1 "Christian" who was offended that I was a magician.
I struggled coming out of the magic closet, so to speak.
I was afraid what reception my pastors would have.

dead set, first question asked was.
you know dynamo, he does this trick (shows me a vid) can you do that kind of card trick and make the card rise.
me, sure give me a moment to process it.
okay, pick a card.
he was blown away, I said I had never done anything like that but I'll give it a shot.

so I think that everyone is cool about it.
they all know the truth but love the mystery behind it.
Message: Posted by: oweosc12 (Apr 8, 2015 01:25PM)
Just say that its all an illusion?
Message: Posted by: oweosc12 (Apr 8, 2015 01:25PM)
[quote]On Apr 1, 2015, MediocreMagician wrote:
Some interesting thoughts shared here, great to hear from a variety of different angles. As mentioned above, people are a lot wiser to how tricks are done now and those that aren't are only a quick google search away from an answer. Discretion is key with your audience. I always just look through the effects and ask myself whether I think they could be taken the wrong way or cause someone to question their faith/belief. At the end of the day everyone is different though. Some people love the feeling of wonder, others want to know the secret while a few might attach supernatural abilities to performances. Scripting is very important, personally I'd never claim to have special abilities. Depending on the effect it's either something that has taken lots of practice/training or something I'm just not sure why I can do. Keep the input coming, it's all great intel! [/quote]

yep
Message: Posted by: MediocreMagician (Apr 8, 2015 09:32PM)
I've never had an issue with doing magic at church either. The most common response is the one that OzJosh mentioned, asking if I've seen this or know how to do that. As long as you don't present things as something their not, you probably wont run into too many issues. Most know that magic involves some kind of trick or illusion so as long as you're not claiming supernatural abilities you're generally good. I've used various effects for object lessons when things fit, even a few examples of mentalism to demonstrate deception so there's certainly different presentations that can be used.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 22, 2015 11:04AM)
Not just Mentalism and Metal Bending, but most levitations (Zombie, specifically) are touchy in a religious environment. Not just Church. One just needs to know their audience..

Doug
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Apr 23, 2015 01:42AM)
It comes down to personality.
if people are that religious and they feel the need to be offended.
so be it.

if the audience is a highly religious one, do card tricks and bug out ASAP
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 23, 2015 01:10PM)
Hey, I'm an equal opportunity offender! LOL! Anything's game with me! I LOVE to freak out these over-zealous fanatics! Heck, I used to get bummed about it. Now, I make it [i]fun![/i] Folks here might not approve, though! ROFL!

Doug
Message: Posted by: OzJosh (Apr 24, 2015 10:46PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, Dougini wrote:
Hey, I'm an equal opportunity offender! LOL! Anything's game with me! I LOVE to freak out these over-zealous fanatics! Heck, I used to get bummed about it. Now, I make it [i]fun![/i] Folks here might not approve, though! ROFL!

Doug [/quote]


you sir are Awesome and there is no greater joy than making the over-zealous freak.... I mean fanatics blow a fuse.
Message: Posted by: ChrisG (Apr 25, 2015 09:28AM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, OzJosh wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, Dougini wrote:
Hey, I'm an equal opportunity offender! LOL! Anything's game with me! I LOVE to freak out these over-zealous fanatics! Heck, I used to get bummed about it. Now, I make it [i]fun![/i] Folks here might not approve, though! ROFL!

Doug [/quote]


you sir are Awesome and there is no greater joy than making the over-zealous freak.... I mean fanatics blow a fuse. [/quote]



To make sure I understand you two, I should provoke and offend to win them over and get rebooked.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 25, 2015 01:12PM)
Haa hahaha! If one is trying to use Magic to win folks to Christ...I don't know what to say. But I am not an evangelist. I don't pretend to be. But people who freak out over this stuff, are RIPE for the pickin'! A lady absolutely FREAKED over my .damn Zombie! The pastor threw me out!

I kicked and battered myself over that for a long time! Then, I learned to just say eff it. Have fun! I say sca-REW these people who live in fear and loathe anything unusual, or out-of-the-ordinary! People who think DANCING is of the devil! Ohhh, THIS is my fodder! Hee hee heee! Tweak 'em! I love it! :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: Bryan Drake Show (Apr 26, 2015 05:05PM)
Man if people are using public speaking and illustrations to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say
Man if people are using Music to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say
Man if people are using Movies to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say
Man if people are using Feeding Centers to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say
Man if people are using Art to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say

Where is the line drawn?
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 27, 2015 10:32AM)
You're right. Where do ya draw the line? Each person is different. I personally think we need more role models. And, speaking for myself, I can't see using Magic for evangelism. The person has to be educated, and then decide for him/herself. [i]How[/i] that person is educated...well, that is the question, isn't it?

Doug
Message: Posted by: ChrisG (Apr 27, 2015 02:51PM)
[quote]On Apr 26, 2015, Bryan Drake Show wrote:
Man if people are using public speaking and illustrations to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say
Man if people are using Music to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say
Man if people are using Movies to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say
Man if people are using Feeding Centers to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say
Man if people are using Art to win people to Christ...I don't know what to say

Where is the line drawn? [/quote]

There is no line I will not cross within Christian guide lines.

Correct Brian, as Paul said:
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

So I became an entertainer, a friend and a good neighbor, that I might reach some.
Message: Posted by: The Bard (Jun 6, 2015 08:21AM)
I love mentalism too! As a Christian I never go down the mystical "reading your thoughts" angle. I generally try to use other more fun and silly premises, that are totally baffling but a bit "tongue in cheek" so the audience knows it's just a trick.

Here is one I did just a week ago at my church.
https://youtu.be/3FU6XKIwkgo
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Jun 9, 2015 04:31PM)
Exactly... Comedy/humor approach works very well or work in a message something about how "that's" (the effect that just occurred) a snapshot of how it must be for God who is outside time and not bound within it and knows everything!

Glen
Message: Posted by: Russo (Jun 10, 2015 10:59AM)
Just a note - when I did mentalism in my gospel program - we mention "if I can read/control your thoughts(?) - what do you think our LORD thinks when he reads YOUR thoughts" - Be careful.. Ralph
Message: Posted by: EVENTUCATOR (Nov 4, 2015 03:08PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2014, Bryan Drake Show wrote:
I should say at the beginning after the intro. [/quote]

I tell my 'audience' the bible says NOT to do Magic, Magic is real, (eg. Pharaohs magicians) and I am not going to do 'real' Magic, I am going to "TRICK" you.
That is what most people today call 'Magic'. I can show you how I trick you, BUT, I have to keep what I do a secret, because there are those who do these things for a living.
Dynamike
Message: Posted by: EVENTUCATOR (Nov 4, 2015 03:55PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2015, The Bard wrote:
I love mentalism too! As a Christian I never go down the mystical "reading your thoughts" angle. I generally try to use other more fun and silly premises, that are totally baffling but a bit "tongue in cheek" so the audience knows it's just a trick.

Here is one I did just a week ago at my church.
https://youtu.be/3FU6XKIwkgo [/quote]

Great effect. (Maybe a little too long, noticed young ones in audience.)
Like the "Gift" effect at the end. "You Drink It, You Think it" :))
Message: Posted by: topherhester (Nov 18, 2015 11:24AM)
I've struggled with this way of thinking in the past. I am a follower of Jesus but I am not a Christian performer. My magic and routines are not done for church congregations. I have implemented small elements into certain shows, especially kids shows if I know the group ahead of time (such as Bible coloring book, and a change bag routine based on sin.. basically a stained cloth and a clean cross go into the bag, a clean cloth and a stained cross come out). I've been led to feel guilty for doing magic by other "Christians" in the past and now I don't care what they think about it. I'm tired of walking on eggshells to not offend someone. If I do magic for the sake of entertainment only, then there's nothing wrong with it.

Over the past several years I've taken a liking to more bizarre type magic so I really had to think about how I set the boundaries and lines of my routines. Now the way I present most of my mentalism is by having the spectator seem to do the work. I claim to not have any powers whatsoever. I usually do a few bizarre shows around this time of year and I present them as historical recreations of what mediums and psychics did to mislead people in the past. Of course then unexplainable things happen in the show so the entertainment factor is still there but they were at least given the disclaimer in the beginning.

The fact is, I know mediums and psychics are full of crap so I try to distance myself from being seen as one in any way.
Message: Posted by: MSaber (May 17, 2018 06:05PM)
You can always chalk it up to being psychology. But you definitely don't want to mislead people into thinking it's something supernatural or occult.