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Topic: A Tale of Two Shootings
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 17, 2014 11:41PM)
Http://www.msnbc.com/search/Michael%20brown
803 stories found.


http://www.msnbc.com/search/Brendan%20Tevlin
0 stories found.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 18, 2014 12:28AM)
Another story they seem to miss is when a so called dreamer murders people because he is disrespected.

Oh no they have no agenda to push.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 18, 2014 12:34AM)
Edit: misread
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 18, 2014 05:20AM)
I think the difference might be that the Brown case involves a shooting by a cop, whereas the Tevlin case is about a murder by a murderer.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 18, 2014 05:29AM)
That is certainly one difference.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 18, 2014 05:50AM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I think the difference might be that the Brown case involves a shooting by a cop, whereas the Tevlin case is about a murder by a murderer. [/quote]

Some might think that a targeted murder committed by a self-professed Muslim jihadist on American soil specifically in retaliation to American military action in the Middle East is newsworthy.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Sep 18, 2014 06:15AM)
First of all, of course it is sad and upsetting about the murders. Having said that ...

Okay, so Ali Muhammad Brown (the killer of Brendan Tevlin) was convicted of bank fraud back in 2005, served time, was also a registered sex offender, and most recently he is believed to have shot and killed 4 people over a period of 6 months or so.

Is it really newsworthy (in the U.S., I mean) that someone like him has such ready access to guns? If it is, we already have a thread about how U.S. gun laws are too lax.

Now I suppose some people may get excited about the story because Brown claims to be Muslim and allegedly he said that one or more of his recent killings were protests against U.S. actions. Well, I will guess that most serial killers say they have a motive. Does it really matter what a crazy person says in a situation like this? IIRC, Son of Sam says he killed because a dog told him to. Some other serial killers kill because they hate women. Others because they hate homosexuals. And so on.

I think the most newsworthy bit is that the local police (according to some reports) were (inadvertently?) besmirching Tevlin's good name by suggesting that it was a 'targetted' killing, perhaps in order to keep the community calm. According to news reports, some people are upset because they took this to mean that Tevlin was involved in some sort of shady activity (specifically, a drugs buy). Some are also upset because they feel were 'misled' by the police, as they were told there was no danger even though the serial killer was (as it turns out) still hiding in their community.

But isn't that the same thing police normally do when a serial killer is on the loose? Tell the populace to stay calm, everything is under control, no one is under any danger. In my experience, from the news reports I have read about other serial killers, I think it is.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 18, 2014 06:18AM)
:)
Message: Posted by: balducci (Sep 18, 2014 06:19AM)
By the way, just in case it is not clear, my statements above about the police besmirching Tevlin's good name etc. is not necessarily my opinion. I was just stating what some people in the affected community were reported as saying.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 18, 2014 06:31AM)
[quote]On Sep 17, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I think the difference might be that the Brown case involves a shooting by a cop, whereas the Tevlin case is about a murder by a murderer. [/quote]

Some might think that a targeted murder committed by a self-professed Muslim jihadist on American soil specifically in retaliation to American military action in the Middle East is newsworthy. [/quote]

Some might. But on the other hand, the police believe that Tevlin's murder started out as a robbery and had nothing to do with an act of retaliation by a jihadist. The jihad rationale by Brown came later. The guy is a career criminal with numerous convictions as outlined by Balducci.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/suspect-killed-n-teen-vengeance-military-article-1.1911964

[quote] Brown was linked to the New Jersey shooting after police identified the weapon used as the same one used in several Seattle killings.

Police in Seattle said Brown shot and killed 30-year-old Leroy Henderson in April on a state road outside of the city. Investigators said Brown had no relationship to his alleged victim and the crime was likely motivated by robbery, drugs or crime.

Brown also allegedly gunned down Ahmed Said and Dwone Anderson-Young in June after meeting them at a Seattle nightclub.

The alleged summer shooting spree is not the 29-year-old's first run in with police.

Brown was arrested in 2004 for his part in a massive Seattle bank fraud scheme, the New Jersey newspaper reported. Police originally thought the accused crime ring shipped stolen money overseas to terrorists, but that claim was never backed up with evidence.[/quote]

I think what we're seeing is Tevlin's tragic murder being exploited by those who would like to stir up faux outrage in furtherance of a political agenda.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 18, 2014 06:39AM)
I think what we're seeing is Tevlin's tragic murder being ignored by those who like to bury certain stories in furtherance of a political agenda.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 18, 2014 07:01AM)
Not really. Brown is just a typical criminal/murderer. The whole jihad thing, as evidenced by his past criminal record, is a load of crap. The only reason some on the right are feigning outrage over this is to minimize and draw attention away from the events in Ferguson now that the police version of events has become suspect.

Simple as that, really. And pretty transparent.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 18, 2014 07:08AM)
Whether or not former killings are robberies don't prove that this killing was a robbery. The only reason some on the left are ignoring this is to keep attention on the events in Ferguson.. Simple as that, really. And pretty transparent.

To people in the middle, this is a story. One that should have received SOME mention by any major news network.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Sep 18, 2014 10:07AM)
[quote]On Sep 17, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Http://www.msnbc.com/search/Michael%20brown
803 stories found.


http://www.msnbc.com/search/Brendan%20Tevlin
0 stories found. [/quote]


http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/search?q=michael+brown&submit=Search&ss=fn
84,492 stories found

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/search?q=tevlin
3 stories found

I wonder what agenda the "fair and balanced" news organization is pushing.


Ron
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 18, 2014 10:38AM)
OF COURSE it's a story. But there are robbery/murders every single day in this country. It's apples and oranges when you try to compare it to Ferguson where the national story is about a police officer shooting a black suspect who, according to most witnesses, had his hands up in surrender.

Unless, of course, you want to concede that is something that happens every single day as well.

But this is the typical "deflect and distract" tactic that has become SOP for the right wing. Two new witnesses, both white men who aren't residents of Ferguson, who were simply talking to each other about what they'd just seen, cast serious doubt on the police version of events. But, rather than discuss that, the response is "Oh yeah? What about this African American who shot and killed a white kid? So what if he has a long criminal record, including robbery, fraud, assault and child molestation. He now claims to be a jihadist, and that makes it national news just as much as a white cop killing an unarmed black suspect under color of law."

Why don't you yell "Benghazi!" while you're at it? Maybe that will get people to forget about Ferguson.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Sep 18, 2014 01:17PM)
Just like the MANY murders/shootings daily in the democratic run city of Chicago that occur and the news never reports because it would make the left look incompetent.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 18, 2014 02:11PM)
Well lets not get silly about if Fox and MSNBC have political agendas. Clearly both do.

But when balducci says things about ready access to guns in the US we start to see what he problem is. What laws exactly do any gun control/regulation advocates thing would have stopped it?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 18, 2014 02:38PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, RNK wrote:
Just like the MANY murders/shootings daily in the democratic run city of Chicago that occur and the news never reports because it would make the left look incompetent. [/quote]

Come on, Bob. That's just another silly deflection. Everyone knows about Chicago's crime rate and we also know that red states are right up there at the top when it comes to crime statistics, too. (But if you want to look at a major Democratic city that has witnessed a dramatic drop in gun homicides, you need only look at New York City. And, over the years, it's been both Democrat and moderate Republican mayors who've had much to do with it.)

But here we go again- changing the conversation to avoid talking about the very real possibility that the shooting in Ferguson was unjustified and that race may well have been part of it.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 18, 2014 02:49PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Well lets not get silly about if Fox and MSNBC have political agendas. Clearly both do.

But when balducci says things about ready access to guns in the US we start to see what he problem is. What laws exactly do any gun control/regulation advocates thing would have stopped it? [/quote]

That's the dilemma, isn't it? If, in fact there are NO laws that actually prevent crimes from occurring, then why have any laws at all? But, then again, history has shown that gun regulations, in fact, were an important element in the civilizing of the Old West.

Here's a photograph of Dodge City's Front Street in 1878:

[img]http://fabiusmaximus.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/20130125-dodge-guns.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: RNK (Sep 18, 2014 03:05PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, RNK wrote:
Just like the MANY murders/shootings daily in the democratic run city of Chicago that occur and the news never reports because it would make the left look incompetent. [/quote]

Come on, Bob. That's just another silly deflection. Everyone knows about Chicago's crime rate and we also know that red states are right up there at the top when it comes to crime statistics, too. (But if you want to look at a major Democratic city that has witnessed a dramatic drop in gun homicides, you need only look at New York City. And, over the years, it's been both Democrat and moderate Republican mayors who've had much to do with it.)

But here we go again- changing the conversation to avoid talking about the very real possibility that the shooting in Ferguson was unjustified and that race may well have been part of it. [/quote]

I do agree now that this case may possibly be race oriented- possibly- have to wait and see. But I feel that if Brown would have showed respect from the beginning and just moved off the street- we would not be having this discussion right now. A don't believe a white police officer is going to just blatantly get out and shoot a black man for no reason. Though- I feel there would be some white cops that would shoot a black man and vice versa (a black cop shoot a white man) for blatant disrespect. Don't agree with it but I feel it's definitely possible. I do believe that white cops shooting blacks get more media attention than when it's a black cop shooting a white man. That's not me stating this because of racism feelings. Everyone is racist to a degree whether we think so or not. And it's just not with blacks and whites, I think there is racism in all facets of life.

As far as the Chicago statement- it's just troublesome to see the emphasis the media is putting on the Brown case when the situation of Blacks killing Blacks (especially in Chicago)is so much worse than the situation of White cops killing Blacks. The media attention should be put on the gangs and inner city killings. Display it for what it is and maybe more would be done to combat it. That's what I meant when I harshly stated my previous "Chicago quote". Part of it was more frustration on my part with the emphasis of what's wrong in this country put in the wrong place when so many other situations need more attention.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Sep 18, 2014 03:06PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

To people in the middle, this is a story. [/quote]
So, assuming you are one of those "people in the middle" what do you believe the story is here?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Sep 18, 2014 03:08PM)
It's trivially true that some stories get more traction than others. News organizations are in the business of selling their services, and make judgments based on what they think will sell.

Football is not more important than cancer research. But football gets significantly more press for a reason.

These days with media consolidation, more and more media time and space is dedicated to advertising movies, sports and music that are in the financial bottom line of the conglomerate.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 18, 2014 03:13PM)
RNK- Remember when the story was white mobsters shooting other white mobsters? That was basically ignored for decades too- and it still goes on. Street gangs and more organized crime were always equal opportunity ventures. Remember these lines?

"Leave the gun, take the cannoli."

"Oh Paulie? You won't hear from him no more."
Message: Posted by: RNK (Sep 18, 2014 03:17PM)
Oh I like Cannoli's!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 18, 2014 03:18PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

To people in the middle, this is a story. [/quote]
So, assuming you are one of those "people in the middle" what do you believe the story is here? [/quote]

I know you didn't ask me, but there is no real story here. Just another senseless murder by a career criminal who's now making political rants to justify what was just another robbery/homicide. Kind of like the scene in Dog Day Afternoon where Al Pacino tries to justify the bank robbery he committed in order to pay for a sex change operation for his boyfriend by chanting "Attica! Attica!"

The DC sniper case also comes to mind. There was some kind of whacked out religious/political justification there, too, if I recall.
correctly. But in the end, they were just serial killers.

And "Son of Sam" claimed he killed because God, disguised as a dog, told him to. Did that make him a jihadist?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Sep 18, 2014 03:24PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I think what we're seeing is Tevlin's tragic murder being ignored by those who like to bury certain stories in furtherance of a political agenda. [/quote]
Okay, for the sake of argument let us say Tevlin's murder is being ignored by some in furtherance of a political agenda.

So, then, why are the talking heads who are so concerned about the murder of Tevlin ignoring (for the most part) the murders of Leroy Henderson, Ahmed Said, and Dwone Anderson-Young (i.e. Brown's other recent murder victims)? What political agenda are they furthering? Why are they ignoring the murders of the victim with the Somali background, the African-American victims, the gay victims? Is that because they do not fit the agenda?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Sep 18, 2014 03:28PM)
Is the right ignoring this story because the defendant is a white, female, teenage jihadist? Or maybe people just agree with the judge who ordered that she undergo psychiatric evaluations.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/justice/colorado-jihadist-guilty-plea/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_crime+%28RSS%3A+Crime%29&utm_content=FaceBook

[quote]...When she was arrested, Conley had in her possession certification papers for first aid and nursing, the U.S. Army Explorers and the National Rifle Association, according to court documents.[/quote]

I wonder ISIS required that NRA certification?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 18, 2014 03:50PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
OF COURSE it's a story.[/quote]
Not on MSNBC

[quote]
But there are robbery/murders every single day in this country. [/quote]
Not where the stated motive was retaliation for Middle East action by a Muslim self-professed jihadist.

[quote]
It's apples and oranges when you try to compare it to Ferguson where the national story is about a police officer shooting a black suspect who, according to most witnesses, had his hands up in surrender.[/quote]
True; it's still possible that the Brown shooting was justified.

Unless, of course, you want to concede that is something that happens every single day as well.

[quote]
But this is the typical "deflect and distract" tactic that has become SOP for the right wing. Two new witnesses, both white men who aren't residents of Ferguson, who were simply talking to each other about what they'd just seen, cast serious doubt on the police version of events. [/quote]
I'm not sure who it is you're suggesting is deflecting and distracting; Fox News has reported the story of the new witnesses and put the video up on their site.

[quote]But, rather than discuss that, the response is "Oh yeah? What about this African American who shot and killed a white kid? So what if he has a long criminal record, including robbery, fraud, assault and child molestation. He now claims to be a jihadist, and that makes it national news just as much as a white cop killing an unarmed black suspect under color of law."[/quote]
Ohhhhhh you mean ME! First, I'm not right wing. In fact, the right wing's staunchest representative on that thread, has already opined that it was probably a bad shooting; what more do you want? Moreover, I rather resent your implication as to my motive for starting [i]this[/i] thread, btw. I started it because on its own, I think it merits discussion; not as any kind of "distraction." That be like if I suggested that you continue to minimize it because the left-wing tactic is to support the president by minimizing any hint of terrorism, whether it's blaming Benghazi on a video or calling the Fort Hood shooting "workplace violence."

[quote]Why don't you yell "Benghazi!" while you're at it? Maybe that will get people to forget about Ferguson. [/quote]
Unfortunately for your rather presumptuous assignment of motive to me, I have no particular interest in people forgetting about Ferguson.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 18, 2014 04:13PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Well lets not get silly about if Fox and MSNBC have political agendas. Clearly both do.

But when balducci says things about ready access to guns in the US we start to see what he problem is. What laws exactly do any gun control/regulation advocates thing would have stopped it? [/quote]

That's the dilemma, isn't it? If, in fact there are NO laws that actually prevent crimes from occurring, then why have any laws at all? But, then again, history has shown that gun regulations, in fact, were an important element in the civilizing of the Old West.

Here's a photograph of Dodge City's Front Street in 1878:

[img]http://fabiusmaximus.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/20130125-dodge-guns.jpg[/img] [/quote]

Great picture. What does that have to do with anything? History has also shown that the automatic weapon ban was not the Utopian vision that people claimed it was.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 18, 2014 04:37PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, balducci wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I think what we're seeing is Tevlin's tragic murder being ignored by those who like to bury certain stories in furtherance of a political agenda. [/quote]
Okay, for the sake of argument let us say Tevlin's murder is being ignored by some in furtherance of a political agenda.

So, then, why are the talking heads who are so concerned about the murder of Tevlin ignoring (for the most part) the murders of Leroy Henderson, Ahmed Said, and Dwone Anderson-Young (i.e. Brown's other recent murder victims)? What political agenda are they furthering? Why are they ignoring the murders of the victim with the Somali background, the African-American victims, the gay victims? Is that because they do not fit the agenda? [/quote]

IMO, the stated motivation for the killing is what makes it a story. That differentiates Tevlin from the earlier victims of Brown in a relevant way.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Sep 18, 2014 05:25PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, balducci wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I think what we're seeing is Tevlin's tragic murder being ignored by those who like to bury certain stories in furtherance of a political agenda. [/quote]
Okay, for the sake of argument let us say Tevlin's murder is being ignored by some in furtherance of a political agenda.

So, then, why are the talking heads who are so concerned about the murder of Tevlin ignoring (for the most part) the murders of Leroy Henderson, Ahmed Said, and Dwone Anderson-Young (i.e. Brown's other recent murder victims)? What political agenda are they furthering? Why are they ignoring the murders of the victim with the Somali background, the African-American victims, the gay victims? Is that because they do not fit the agenda? [/quote]

IMO, the stated motivation for the killing is what makes it a story. That differentiates Tevlin from the earlier victims of Brown in a relevant way. [/quote]
How so? Brown gave the same justification for all of the killings.

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2014/0......ght.html

"Brown later confessed to the crime, according to court documents, telling authorities he had killed Tevlin and three Washington men as retribution for U.S. military action in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and other Islamic countries."
Message: Posted by: Pecan_Creek (Sep 18, 2014 06:05PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Ohhhhhh you mean ME! First, I'm not right wing. [/quote]

That's a good one. I'd hate to see what your definition of right wing is if you claim to be a centrist.


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Sep 18, 2014 06:12PM)
I think that Lobo has a one right wing and one left wing. It's what keeps him from flapping around in circles.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Sep 18, 2014 06:15PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, Pecan_Creek wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Ohhhhhh you mean ME! First, I'm not right wing. [/quote]

That's a good one. I'd hate to see what your definition of right wing is if you claim to be a centrist.


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: [/quote]

From reading a lot of Lobo's posts I would definitely say he is center. I actually first thought he was left but recently he has moved a little to the right. Laws of average = center.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 18, 2014 06:16PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, Pecan_Creek wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Ohhhhhh you mean ME! First, I'm not right wing. [/quote]

That's a good one. I'd hate to see what your definition of right wing is if you claim to be a centrist.


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: [/quote]

Well, as a for instance, most of the right-wingers I know are Christian Republicans who are pro-life, against gay marriage, and support the war on drugs, none of which applies to me.

But I can see where from your vantage point, anything close to the center appears far right.
Message: Posted by: Pecan_Creek (Sep 18, 2014 06:22PM)
Delusions are still delusions even if they are shared.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Sep 18, 2014 06:38PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, Pecan_Creek wrote:
Delusions are still delusions even if they are shared. [/quote]

Just like your posts......
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 18, 2014 06:39PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, Pecan_Creek wrote:
Delusions are still delusions even if they are shared. [/quote]

Very well put, indeed.
Message: Posted by: Pecan_Creek (Sep 18, 2014 06:49PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, Pecan_Creek wrote:
Delusions are still delusions even if they are shared. [/quote]

Very well put, indeed. [/quote]

Thanks.



Hey, wait a minute...
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Sep 19, 2014 01:58AM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
...
Ohhhhhh you mean ME! First, I'm not right wing. In fact, the right wing's staunchest representative on that thread, has already opined that it was probably a bad shooting; what more do you want?
... [/quote]

Lobo, if you're referring to me as the 'right wing's staunchest representative', I hate to break it to you but I'm not aware of any, (or very, very few anyway), positions that I disagree with you on. So that may mean that either I'm more centrist than you believe or you're more right wing than you're aware of! :wow:
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 19, 2014 01:59AM)
And/or we don't spend as much time discussing the positions on which I'm on the left.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Sep 19, 2014 02:18AM)
Any rebuttal to my post at the top of page 2?
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Sep 19, 2014 02:49AM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
And/or we don't spend as much time discussing the positions on which I'm on the left. [/quote]

That may be entirely possible, which is why I said "may be" about my two possibilities. But who knows? Maybe I'd surprise you! :)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 19, 2014 04:21AM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, balducci wrote:
Any rebuttal to my post at the top of page 2? [/quote]
I don't know who's "largely ignoring" them. Unfortunately the link you provided doesn't take me to a story; it takes me to a homepage. Was there knowledge of the (professed) motive, or did it only come out after the Tevlin murder and Brown's subsequent arrest?

Fox News and local affiliates have reported on the other murders and names of the victims, and Michelle Malkin has reported on (all of) the murders, as she apparently picked up on the story fairly early. I've only seen one TV piece on Fox about Brown, so I don't really know if the other victims are being largely ignored.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Sep 19, 2014 04:24AM)
Sorry about the link, but I guess they changed it during the day. It went to the story directly when I posted it. The motive came out after he was arrested and interviewed by police from the various involved communities.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Sep 19, 2014 04:26AM)
So there was no story (per my rationale) prior to the Tevlin murder (unless he was arrested earlier and out on bail, but that seems unlikely).