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Topic: Cup & Balls Move Enquiry
Message: Posted by: miky (Nov 5, 2014 08:49PM)
Can anyone tell me what this C & B move is called and point me toward a detailed description / instruction in print or video.

There's a ball under the cup and one fingerpalmed in your right hand. You tip or lift the cup to display the ball and reach for it with your right hand. It appears that you pick up the ball from the table, but you produce the fingerpalmed ball and leave the other ball under the cup.

I'm familiar with most cup and ball moves, but I can't seem to make this one look smooth and deceptive.
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Nov 8, 2014 07:31PM)
Following what you wrote, it seems to be an impossible move.

Lift the cup, presumably with the left hand since the right hand is busy reaching for the ball. The tabled ball is exposed so there's no way to produce the palmed ball and conceal the one that's already in open view.

Try again.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Nov 8, 2014 11:55PM)
This move is described in John Carney's The Book of Secrets, and is also part of David Roth's Chop Cup routine. It's utilized to streamline the final loading sequence of a cups and balls routine a bit more. The standard method is to lift the cup with the right hand to show the ball on the table, pass the cup into the waiting left hand to load it with a finger palmed ball, and then picks up the tabled ball as the left hand deposits the loaded cup back to the tabletop.

Instead of this, as you inquired, your left hand tilts the cup to the left to display the tabled ball, your right hand approaches the ball to pick it up, and instead rolls the finger palmed ball up with the thumb to display the ball while the left hand tilts the cup back flat on the table. It's a timing move and the right fingers cover the tabled ball for just an instant before producing it's finger palmed ball. The left side of the tilted cup never comes off the table.
Message: Posted by: BeThePlunk (Nov 9, 2014 04:36PM)
Are you talking about the move that Suzanne seems to use at 3:08 and again at 3:19 in this performance?
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Nov 9, 2014 05:45PM)
Here's the link you meant to post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H2yrkH6nRQ
Message: Posted by: miky (Nov 9, 2014 05:45PM)
Thanks, Leo. I'll try to find a copy of the Book of Secrets. In the meantime, thanks to your tip, I found youtube videos of David Roth doing his chop cup routine and John Carney doing a one-cup-and-ball routine. That move is done in both of them, and the videos are very helpful.

miky
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Nov 9, 2014 05:46PM)
Leo H,

IMHO, you are totally right.
Message: Posted by: miky (Nov 9, 2014 05:49PM)
I should have added -- your description of the move is extremely helpful. I realized after reading it and practicing that I hadn't been keeping the left side of the cup on the table.

miky
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Nov 9, 2014 06:29PM)
Thank you Lawrence O--and also for the wealth of information you bring here.

I learned a devious move to display 2 empty? cups from you.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Nov 10, 2014 06:25AM)
[quote]On Nov 8, 2014, Dave V wrote:
Following what you wrote, it seems to be an impossible move.

Lift the cup, presumably with the left hand since the right hand is busy reaching for the ball. The tabled ball is exposed so there's no way to produce the palmed ball and conceal the one that's already in open view.

Try again. [/quote]

isn't there an old move where the visible ball is flicked back into the angled cup? Before it runs back out the right hand is away with the Utility Pass ball and the Cup tipped over the "empty" space

Probably an Eddy Joseph move
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Nov 10, 2014 12:10PM)
[quote]On Nov 8, 2014, Leo H wrote:
...
Instead of this, as you inquired, your left hand tilts the cup to the left to display the tabled ball, your right hand approaches the ball to pick it up, and instead rolls the finger palmed ball up with the thumb to display the ball while the left hand tilts the cup back flat on the table. It's a timing move and the right fingers cover the tabled ball for just an instant before producing it's finger palmed ball. The left side of the tilted cup never comes off the table. [/quote]

This makes much more sense.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Nov 10, 2014 09:26PM)
[quote]On Nov 10, 2014, funsway wrote:
isn't there an old move where the visible ball is flicked back into the angled cup? Before it runs back out the right hand is away with the Utility Pass ball and the Cup tipped over the "empty" space

Probably an Eddy Joseph move [/quote]

It's in the cups and balls chapter of The Dai Vernon Book of Magic under the heading of Stage 4. ALL THREE BALLS APPEAR UNDER THE CENTER CUP. This move is used to pretend to place the 3rd ball under the far right cup. The right and left hands then simultaneously lift their respective cups to show the empty spots that were occupied by the first and third balls.
Message: Posted by: Tilman (Nov 11, 2014 04:30AM)
There is an alternative to the move that the original poster enquired about. I think that alternative is superior.

Rather than having both balls start out and end up in their original positions (ball starting out in FP stays in hand, ball starting out under cup stays under cup), the ball under the cup is truly picked up and the ball in FP is released and allowed to roll under cup as it is lowered to the table.

I think this is superior because the ball that started out under the cup stays in view throughout (providing a focus for the spectators' attention) and because the action of picking up the ball is true rather than simulated. There is no downside associated with doing this move rather than the other (that is: angles are just as good, hand positions and movements are as natural or even more natural, etc.).

Alexander de Cova uses the move extensively in his cups and balls work and I learned it from him.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a video of Alexander executing the move online. So here is my own execution (probably inferior to Alexander's) at 5:33 in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPQ7WTwrPYI
(As I re-watch this, I think the wrist turn in picking up the ball should and can be more minimal.)

If anyone knows the origin of this move, I'd be very thankful if you could let us know.

Like the move that this thread is really about, it is a great way of cleaning up final load sequences by cutting down on unnecessary hand-to-hand transfers of cups and balls.
Message: Posted by: BeThePlunk (Nov 11, 2014 05:15AM)
So very enjoyable! The pace, artistry and mastery of your material are certainly an inspiration. Thank you.
Message: Posted by: dcjames (Nov 11, 2014 09:16AM)
I first learned of this move from Al Schneider's materials. Not certain that it is his creation.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Nov 11, 2014 11:36AM)
Thank you Tilman for helping us fine tune this move!

It makes one want to say "Why didn't I think of it?"
Message: Posted by: funsway (Nov 11, 2014 02:08PM)
This simultaneous Take and Put is an old sponge ball ploy done in a spectator's hand.

No reason it can't be done in a Cup routine.
Message: Posted by: miky (Nov 12, 2014 02:49PM)
Thanks so much, Tilman, for the video link and the idea. You're right -- your move is easier, more fluid, and more deceptive. Really enjoyed your routine.

miky