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Topic: 8 Kings stack?
Message: Posted by: Jescilito (Dec 13, 2014 03:22AM)
I know the 8 Kings stack. I really only know a couple of effects with it. Basically the Weigh effect from Erdnase as taught on the the false shuffles and cuts project. I am having a tough time finding a book or dvd source that focuses on this stack. I would really like to utilize it for more than the one effect and I'm pretty new to magic so I'm not sure where to look. Any reference to a book that has more effects for this stack? Or would it be more beneficial for me learn a new stack all together?
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Dec 13, 2014 04:10AM)
Almost any Si Stebbins effect can be done with Eight Kings.
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Dec 13, 2014 09:17AM)
I don't know of a single inclusive reference dealing just with effects using what are known as rosary stacks (like 8K or SS where the thirteen values are in a particular order and that order is repeated four times, with the suit order following a specific rule). I have memorized a stack so using I don't have much call for effects which use a rosary stack as an aid to location. That said, there are some great effects, like Max Maven's Mockingbird, that require the the specific cyclic nature found with a rosary stack. It is also known that the legendary Chan Canasta made a great career with blockbusters based on the Si Stebbins stack. Keep researching and asking around. There are a lot more options out their than the classical card weighing or basic location effects.

Message: Posted by: ddyment (Dec 13, 2014 10:23AM)
Lcwright1964 claimed:[quote]... what are known as rosary stacks (like 8K or SS where the thirteen values are in a particular order and that order is repeated four times, with the suit order following a specific rule).[/quote]
This is not a definition of a rosary (aka circular) stack. It is a sequential stack in which the deck may be cut (indefinitely) without disturbing the functionality. Stacks like 8K and SS are very old constructions that do not reflect the best of today's rosary stacks (that is not to say that they can't be extremely effective, but they are not examinable).

By way of example, [url=http://www.deceptionary.com/tricyclic.html]my own DAO stack[/url] is every bit as easily learned and used as 8K and SS (I would say easier than 8K, in fact), and yet exhibits neither value nor suit ordering of any kind, and has been carefully examined by the likes of Eugene Burger for an extended period of time without revealing any clues as to the nature of the stack.

You can read more about the different types of full-deck stacks in my [url=http://www.deceptionary.com/aboutstacks.html]free on-line essay on the topic[/url].
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Dec 13, 2014 11:25AM)
Thanks for correcting me, Mr. Dyment. Not sure what the correct nomenclature is, but I do know what I am trying to say! I did want to mention that even when experimenting with the venerable circular stacks or some modern variants (like Simon Aronson's Simon-Eyes stack, which can be used generically as a circular stack just like 8K or SS as well as specifically for its main intended trick), I like to adopt the stratagem Aronson suggested in the Aronson Approach to mix obscure the periodicity of suit order. Basically, his rule is to follow CHaSeD order, but when one hits A, 2, 3, or 4 you skip one in the suit cycle (you basically move to the other suit of the same colour), and carry on from there with the CHSD order. For example, the first cycle of 8K would be 8C-KH-3S-10C-2H-7D-9C-5H-QS-4D-AH-6D-JC. Since the skip applies to four cards (and one can choose any four in theory) one gets back to where one is supposed to be at the end of each 13-card cycle, so there circular nature of the deck stack is preserved. It won't stand up to close scrutiny, especially with SS were the numerical skips by three are obvious, but it does pseudo-randomize the colours enough to make things look good for a quick face-up spread. Max Maven writes that one must use an alternating suit colour order for Mockingbird, but it turns out that the trick still works great with this pattern-obscuring colour shifting. And it is easy enough to remember that when one moves back to or from an A, 2, 3, or 4 that one goes to the same colour cross suit, so it is not an onerous exception. In the couple of tricks I like that demand a circular stack, like Mockingbird and, of course, Simon-Eyes itself, I think it can be fairly deceptive, at least with lay people.

Of course, I gather that more sophisticated circular stacks are even more deceptive and I would be keen to learn how they might apply to some of my favourite tricks.

Message: Posted by: ddyment (Dec 13, 2014 12:00PM)
The specific error in Les' original post was the claim that rosary stacks are somehow related to repeating banks of cards, or revolving suit orders (both of these are true with 8K and SS, but are characteristic of those particular stacks, not rosary stacks in general). In fact, they are usually (but not always) considered the [b]flaws[/b] of these older approaches.

Solving the revolving suit problem using the suggestion posted by Les (and there are other similar ideas) adds more complication (thus time) to the calculation of the next/preceding card. So it's simply a "patch" applied to an imperfect solution, and unnecessary if the original design is better.

Incidentally, Chan Canasta used the 8K stack, not SS. Though the point being made by Les still holds true.
Message: Posted by: JBSmith1978 (Dec 13, 2014 12:51PM)
As Kabbalah says many if not most effects that use Stebbins do not take advantage of it's mathematical progression.

Most effects that utilise a partial/Full Stack and solely rely upon a sequential(value and or suit), cyclic, and or the 13x4/tetradistic (Stebbin's 3) property can be used with Eight Kings.

There are many. These forums and Behr's database would be a good start.


Edit: Reversing 26 cards will allow one to do some stay stack effects.
Message: Posted by: lcwright1964 (Dec 13, 2014 02:56PM)
Tetradistic--THAT is the concept I was trying to convey. As for stay-stack issues, Maven's Mockingbird is done with a tetradistic stack that has been converted to palindromic stay-stack form by reversing 26 cards as Jed explains.
Message: Posted by: docguitarman (Oct 21, 2019 09:00PM)
Just tonight, while searching for Stewart James effects, I came across "MYSTIFYING FIVE CARD PROBLEM" in the Sphinx Vol. 29 #2 p.79. It uses the Eight Kings stack in an interesting way to divine the spectator's chosen card from among 5. Since the spec has to scan the cards face up and remove cards, a Si Stebbins stack would no doubt be detectable by an alert spectator -- eight kings , not so much! The performer in fact does one riffle shuffle and can display the faces before giving it to the spec. However, I like the effect and is a decent self worker, IMO. Note: A magi would no doubt detect "eight kings" so this is not a magician fooler.

Message: Posted by: stickmondoo (Oct 24, 2019 04:08PM)
Steve Beams Semi-automatic series is filled with material that can be performed with either Si-Stebbins or Eight Kings. Just one incredible routine can be found in vol 3. Stebbin Out. One of my fav tricks with a stack like this. You could not perform it with the DAO stack, but stebbins or eight kings work fine. It is a killer.

Also if you perform a few tricks with the eight kings you could always follow it up with Up The Ante as your closer, or Sal Piacente Memory opener. If you use a stack like this Lew Brooks Stack Attack shuffle is such an easy thing to stick on the beginning of your routine so it looks like you start with a shuffled deck. Any false shuffle is good but Lews is so easy itís ridiculous. Ben Blauís OCD cut is also a great tool if you use a stack like this. You can also turn a stack like this into a mirror stack by reversing 26 cards so you can do effects like the one Denis Behr describes in Hand Crafted Magic 3. I think itís called Mating Season and is a fracking amazing trick and you donít even have to reverse 26 cards because of the incredible way Denis structures his routine.
Message: Posted by: uzimaki35 (Jan 20, 2020 01:35AM)
You can take a look here.