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Topic: DVDs? Really? In 2014?
Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Dec 14, 2014 01:03PM)
This is part rant (apologies up front), but mostly I'm asking a genuine question. I am trying to soak up the study of magic like a sponge. And I've discovered that I am a VERY visual learner. Videos are invaluable to me. I just wasn't understanding several of the moves in Giobbi's "Introduction to Card Magic" until I followed the YouTube links in the pdf. So very helpful! I'm almost afraid to move on to CC1 (which is sitting right here), because it's a book. There are no YouTube links in books:-P.

But the alternative is always "get the DVDs." Gah! I run a web business whose main products are video tutorials. People buy the courses and are given immediate access to all the videos, which they can either stream from the site (a la YouTube), or (if they must), download to their computers.

My main computer is a MacBook Air. My secondary "computer" is an iPad. There are no DVD drives. Why? Because it is 20-freaking-14. I'm currently in the middle of watching a 4 hour video course on Lynda.com. It's not like bandwidth is a problem on the interwebs anymore.

So now that my little rant is over - I have an actual question. Are there any good tutorials that are web video products? I'm not talking about free videos. I am, of course, willing to pay for these courses. But I'm probably never going to buy a DVD for training unless I absolutely have to. I won't be able to watch it unless I want to co-opt my family's TV so I can study magic.

Am I just going to have to suck it up and find a way to watch DVDs? I suspect I know the answer. But you never know until you ask.

Thanks!

Ken
Message: Posted by: Dr. JK (Dec 14, 2014 01:21PM)
Check out [url]llepub.com[/url].
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 14, 2014 02:08PM)
Ken,

although I admit that in certain cases a video can be helpful, don't give up books! Card College is VERY well written and illustrated.
Anyway on www.lybrary.com you can purchase separate chapters from Card College 1 & 2 where you get the text in pdf plus embedded videos where you see Giobbi silently showing the sleights (these are NOT the same videos you get in his four DVDs of the Card College 1 & 2).
You could rely on these videos only where you find it a little difficult to understand the moves.
Just a question: are you on your own? I mean: isn't there a magic club where you could also find some direct help?
That would also be a good thing!

Keep enjoying your learning phase!
mlippo
Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Dec 14, 2014 04:29PM)
[quote]On Dec 14, 2014, Dr. JK wrote:
Check out [url]llepub.com[/url]. [/quote]
Thanks Jeff!

Ken

Posted: Dec 14, 2014 05:39 pm
Mlippo - Thank you! Really good to know. I didn't know CC came in pdf with video links. that's EXACTLY what I wanted. Just got it:).

Thanks again!

Ken
Message: Posted by: MVoss (Dec 14, 2014 09:28PM)
Penguin Magic offers a lot of the stuff as downloads too. Not just Dvd's
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Dec 14, 2014 10:22PM)
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever.
Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Dec 14, 2014 11:52PM)
Kabbalah - I agree about books. Absolutely. The truly important stuff - the theory, the art, the transfer of experience from master to student - can best be done (if you cannot have that person teach you personally) through his/her words in books. By way of clarification - I learn physical skills - actions - best through observation of the motion better than through static words and pictures. It's my preferred modality. Others have different dominant modalities.

80-90 percent of the benefit I'm getting is from books and other written advice (from this forum, for example). I take in dynamic physical skills faster and more completely if I can observe the motion TOO. That's all I was saying. Really my main complaint was with the FORM of the video (on-line versus DVD). Rest assured, I have and use the books.

Ken
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Dec 15, 2014 02:34AM)
I prefer video to books for learning magic, like I prefer audio lectures to books for learning some other information. In most subjects I find the combination of book and video preferable to either one alone. I got a DVD player especially for magic since I watch explanations repeatedly and don't like to fiddle with streaming off multiple sites etc.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Dec 15, 2014 05:46AM)
KenRyan,

I PMed you last night.
Could you please reply?

Thanks

mlippo
Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Dec 15, 2014 10:50AM)
[quote]On Dec 15, 2014, mlippo wrote:
KenRyan,

I PMed you last night.
Could you please reply?

Thanks

mlippo [/quote]
Done.
Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Dec 15, 2014 10:56AM)
[quote]On Dec 14, 2014, mlippo wrote:
Ken,

although I admit that in certain cases a video can be helpful, don't give up books! Card College is VERY well written and illustrated.
Anyway on www.lybrary.com you can purchase separate chapters from Card College 1 & 2 where you get the text in pdf plus embedded videos where you see Giobbi silently showing the sleights (these are NOT the same videos you get in his four DVDs of the Card College 1 & 2).
You could rely on these videos only where you find it a little difficult to understand the moves.
Just a question: are you on your own? I mean: isn't there a magic club where you could also find some direct help?
That would also be a good thing!

Keep enjoying your learning phase!
mlippo [/quote]

mlippo - I got the pdf version of CC1 (so I have both the hard copy bood AND the electronic version now), but I can't view the videos. they show up as just blue squares. Have you had this problem? Not sure yet if it's because I'm using a Mac. The videos don't work on iPad (4th gen) either. I contacted Lybrary.com. Hopefully they will be able to help.

And to answer your question - yes, I am on my own. I have not looked into a magic club here (San Antonio, TX). I'm not even sure what I would do. Are there usually folks willing to show stuff to newbies like me?

Ken
Message: Posted by: Bill Thompson (Dec 15, 2014 11:16AM)
[quote]On Dec 15, 2014, KenRyan wrote:

... yes, I am on my own. I have not looked into a magic club here (San Antonio, TX). I'm not even sure what I would do. Are there usually folks willing to show stuff to newbies like me?

Ken [/quote]

You ought to go... magic clubs are very welcoming to newbies and yes there will be plenty of people willing to help you.

Now, about reading magic book and trick instructions... One of the first things that all magicians have to do first is learn how to read magic. Magic is the arcane secret language that our spellbooks are written in. Well... it sure seems that way! "The left hand approaches the right and takes..." Once you get proficient at reading and comprehending magic writings it will get easier to understand what the wirter is explaining. Also after a couple of years go back and reread some of your older stuff, you find find yourself understanding much better what the wirter was trying get across... I get ah-ha and lightbulb moments all the time when I go back to an older text that I had read years ago.
Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Dec 15, 2014 11:37AM)
Thanks Bill. Once I'm done recovering from sinus surgery, I'll check it out.

Cheers!

Ken

Posted: Dec 15, 2014 01:34 pm
Mlippo - disregard my question about the CC1 pdf and videos. I just needed to get Adobe Acrobat Reader (as opposed to the default Preview for pdf reading) for the Mac. Now they play fine.

Maybe this will help someone else.

Cheers,

Ken
Message: Posted by: GreenKnight33 (Dec 15, 2014 03:22PM)
I can second mister bills comment. I am new as well and it takes a while to get your head wrapped around the terminology in books. I love books but the descriptions will take time. A key one for me was that magicians call your index finger the first finger. However I took five years of piano so numbering on the keyboard the index was always labelled as two (not one as in magic).

Silly I know but it through me for a bit.

Best to you,
Greenknight
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 15, 2014 03:42PM)
I honestly don't think anyone has any trouble understanding my books. Since I have only one year of High School I can't get too difficult to understand! HL.

Posted: Dec 15, 2014 04:44 pm - And KenRyan, get whatever equipment necessary to view my DVDs - you may just learn something. But can't promise. Again - I have only one year of High School!!
Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Dec 15, 2014 05:03PM)
Thanks Harry and GreenKnight and Bill. I will see about getting one of those small portable DVD players. that was something I hadn't thought of.

Cheers,

Ken
Message: Posted by: gomerel (Dec 15, 2014 08:30PM)
Whatever. Books don't work for me. I download some stuff and buy some DVDs.
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Dec 16, 2014 06:14AM)
The real thing is still a live mentor. Join magic clubs that have regular lectures, attend magic conventions, build a professional network relationship with a pro. As an old booking agent, I can spot an act copied from a video a mile away.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Dec 16, 2014 07:29AM)
[quote]On Dec 16, 2014, Bob Sanders wrote:
The real thing is still a live mentor. Join magic clubs that have regular lectures, attend magic conventions, build a professional network relationship with a pro. As an old booking agent, I can spot an act copied from a video a mile away. [/quote]
AMEN!
Message: Posted by: frankvomit (Dec 16, 2014 02:07PM)
Vanishingink.com has a lot of video downloads.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Woolery (Dec 16, 2014 03:33PM)
I get DVDs because the Internet in Fairbanks is so 1999. Also, having lost a lot in a computer crash makes me really uncertain about trusting to soft storage.

I realize that for someone whose business is Internet video delivery it seems like everyone is totally connected all the time. I have to take my computer to my dad's house to check email because the only provider in my area still does not have availability after five years of waiting for them to get their poop in a group. No cell reception at the house either. I live in the same nation as you but it is in many ways a different world.

That is why I still love DVDs.

Patrick
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Dec 16, 2014 07:49PM)
LOL! Techies like to believe that everyone uses the Internet today. It is far from true. Fact: one of IBM's past International Presidents and America's foremost experts on UFOs has no computer and uses a cloth ribbon typewriter.

Perhaps a better example of the lack of expertise and common (especially in the US Government) usage out there is the computer roll-out of Obamacare. Another prime example is how easy it has been to fool the mass media to believe that the IRS emails were EVER on the private computer to be EVER be lost from a hard drive! They don't even know where to go to get help.

Others simply don't trust information security on the Internet.

Computer use is not new to me. I have used them for 36 years. In the late 70s I was the Director of Marketing and Fiscal Management of a organization that only existed to distribute computer delivered information. Computers are much more common but not universal. The diffusion of innovation is much less than many would like to believe.

A funny case is that the world's largest phone company (Verizon) cannot do business over the phone. You must physically go to one of their walk-in locations and call from there! This is specifically required for their Internet Service products. (I just replaced them with Hughes Net for that very reason. After heart surgery I needed to do business by phone.) Technology is great but far from universal.

Don't stop trying. But deal with reality too. Remember that this too will be replaced with something else in time.
Message: Posted by: Yellowcustard (Dec 16, 2014 08:49PM)
Just something else to add. Yes the option of downloads are become more common. Whit Hayden stuff is avilable on down load and DVD.

Believe it or not but in some place of the world the access of reliable and affordable internet is limted. I live in New Zealand and access is limted and costy compared to England. Just to add
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 17, 2014 05:15AM)
The OP said, "It's not like bandwidth is a problem on the interwebs anymore."

I would challenge this and suggest that our "bandwidth" problems are only beginning.

First, it is not free. Somebody pays for it and the bills are increasing all the time.

For example, I have several rental houses in which I include Cable TV and Internet as part of the package (no extra charge to the renter).
In the last year there has a been a shift from cable based TV viewing to "Streaming" and social media that requires great bandwidth, plus interactive games.
We constantly exceed out Bandwidth and are charged additional fees that cannot be passed on to the renter. One renter thinks it is neat to back up his computer each week on the Cloud using up 40 gigs of bandwidth a week.

Second, major providers will find ways to control bandwidth and charge more for it. Find some software that allows you to estimate your bandwidth usage.
Then call your provider and ask whet is "normal" for a family of four. You will find that their objective is to increase the "necessary" usage with plans to raise the fees.

Third, many devises now use bandwidth without permission of the person paying for it. This is a form of theft. Router passwords only go so far and are easily hacked.
Folks think it is "kool" to talk to your coffee pot and spy on your kids illegally home without supervision. To do this they must open their security to invasion.
Regardless, eventually ways will be found to better control the theft.

So, right now we might consider bandwidth as an unlimited resource. I don't know its "limits" but it cannot be infinite -- and somebody will find a way to charge you for it.

The more you become a slave to it the more it can control you.

But, what should I know. I own a property that is off the grid completely -- no Internet, no cellphone, no TV, no smoking where the primary rules are,
"You can't be mean and you can't be boring."

The sad part in this shift to Internet slavery is that many now do not know how to enjoy solitude or appreciate the value of reading a book over snippets of information at someone else's whim.

One value of a book is that you can put it down and think without missing anything.

In learning magic I prefer a combination of "visual learning" methods, observing the steps and then reading the instructions as I practice.

In teaching magic, most of my effects are only 20% of what can be seen on a video. The "real stuff" is what cannot be seen like "psychological ploys."

Oh well -- at last survey only 28% of the world has access to a computer, but everyone can appreciate magic.

DVD, stream, download -- not the real problem at all.
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Dec 17, 2014 07:50AM)
[quote]On Dec 14, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever. [/quote]
How did people learn before books??
Message: Posted by: Dr. JK (Dec 17, 2014 09:21AM)
[quote]On Dec 17, 2014, wwhokie1 wrote:
[quote]On Dec 14, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever. [/quote]
How did people learn before books?? [/quote]
Master-apprentice model. Still one of the best, and why the DVD medium is very effective. It doesn't replace in-person instruction, but gets closer than many other teaching forms.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Dec 17, 2014 10:09AM)
[quote]On Dec 17, 2014, Dr. JK wrote:
[quote]On Dec 17, 2014, wwhokie1 wrote:
[quote]On Dec 14, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever. [/quote]
How did people learn before books?? [/quote]
Master-apprentice model. Still one of the best, and why the DVD medium is very effective. It doesn't replace in-person instruction, but gets closer than many other teaching forms. [/quote]
And, in that master/apprentice relationship, at least those I have experienced as both the student and the teacher, books were and are the very foundation of of the learning process.
Message: Posted by: MGordonB (Dec 17, 2014 06:33PM)
A lot of "new ways of doing things" are solutions to problems that don't really exist.

Now excuse me while I go flip over the record...
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Dec 18, 2014 07:23AM)
LOL! So true. I remember over 30 years ago when I applied HIGH TECH and converted SAM's 8mm film to VHS.
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Dec 18, 2014 08:55AM)
[quote]On Dec 17, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Dec 17, 2014, Dr. JK wrote:
[quote]On Dec 17, 2014, wwhokie1 wrote:
[quote]On Dec 14, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever. [/quote]
How did people learn before books?? [/quote]
Master-apprentice model. Still one of the best, and why the DVD medium is very effective. It doesn't replace in-person instruction, but gets closer than many other teaching forms. [/quote]
And, in that master/apprentice relationship, at least those I have experienced as both the student and the teacher, books were and are the very foundation of of the learning process. [/quote]
Not before books were invented. Point simply being that "visual learning" is not nonsense. I have done a lot of teaching and some people just learn better visually. I've known kids that pick up math concepts with ease by simply reading a book. Other kids just don't get math concepts until they see it; there are a lot of visual tools designed for that specific purpose and it is sometimes amazing the difference it makes. Example, my son is not a visual learner, visual things will often slow him down with learning. My daughter is very much a visual learner, if she can see it, touch it, watch it then she understands it much better. Buy a "book" on learning styles, people learn in different ways. Yes, anyone can learn from a book, but for some people there are better ways, or, depending on the subject matter, they benefit from visual supplements. Don't dismiss something just because it doesn't work for you.
Message: Posted by: JoshTmagic (Dec 18, 2014 09:00AM)
I agree
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 18, 2014 07:57PM)
"Buy a "book" on learning styles, people learn in different ways"

Don't have to -- got them while getting my Masters Degree in Educational Technology.


The three types are Visual, Auditory and Kinetic. Those things learned primarily from visual stimulation and relationships with other memories of visual events.

Learning from books is Visual Learning. Learning from a DVD is Visual Learning often augmented by Auditory Learning. These are two different visual media.

Many posters on the Café' use Visual Learning to mean "From a DVD or Video tape or TV viewing" This is incorrect.

However, a person might learn more easily from one form over the other for any number of reasons including laziness.

You mention "Visual supplements" while also implying they are not "Visual learning."

There is very little available for a student of magic to learn other than by Visual Learning. A preference for a particular visual media is understandable, but doesn't make it not be Visual Learning.

Yes, there are a lot of "visual tools" -- all part of Visual Learning. Saying, "I am a Visual Learner so I can't learn from a book," is like saying, "I am not a vegetarian because I only eat potatoes."

Most people today have been trained to learn from MIxed Media. A wise magic marketer would provide both.

More important is that all of the Media approaches only support Instrumental Learning. Th essential Functional Learning components can only come from "doing it."

Emulating a video can be easier, while practicing each step from a book (and some DVD's) develops more transportable skills.

In a simplistic view a video supports "learning what" while a book supports "learning how." Some DVD's are incremental enough to replace books.

But all of these are VISUAL LEARNING.

The OP suggest that learning from a tiny screen from a streaming video will work well. I will have to wonder "were's the magic?"
Message: Posted by: Pepsi Twist (Dec 19, 2014 04:27AM)
Funsway you're my hero!
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Dec 19, 2014 08:02AM)
"Saying, "I am a Visual Learner so I can't learn from a book," is like saying, "I am not a vegetarian because I only eat potatoes." " -funsway


Actually, I never said that. In fact I specifically said that "anyone can learn from a book".

Yes books are a form of visual learning, but do not necessarily address the needs of a visual learner. Just because you use your eyes to see the words instead of your ears to hear the auditory sounds doesn't mean that it addresses the needs of visual learners. People seeing words on a page visually is only a small start in addressing the needs of a visual learner. It is when books contain images, pictures, diagrams etc... that they begin to really address a visual learners needs. If it is just words then there is still the need to translate the words into something that can be visualized. That is why elementary textbooks in math contain many pictures and not just numbers. It is to help the learner visualize what the number represents. Books can be a source of visual learning but only if they are designed for that specific purpose, and are done well. To say that any book is a form of visual learning is just not accurate. Watching a dvd is not necessarily visual learning either. If you are watching someone talk then you are using auditory skills, and visual skills, but this doesn't address the needs of the visual learner. The visual learner needs to do more than just be using their eyes, it is not about mere "visual stimulation".

Some Characteristics of a visual learner from the book "The Way they Learn" by Cynthia Tobias
- need to see an illustration of what is being taught before they understand it
- are drawn to flashy, colorful, visually stimulating objects
- prefer books that include pictures or illustrations with the text
- often look like they are daydreaming when they are actually just trying to get a mental image of what's being said
- usually remember better when they can actually see the person who is talking.


people are not able to learn using only one style, but one learning style is usually dominant.

Posted: Dec 19, 2014 09:37 am
Note that I am not arguing against books for visual learners, or even in favor of dvds for visual learners. A book with great diagrams would be preferred to a dvd of just talking or a dvd with poor visual demonstrations. Also, using dvds simply because someone finds it to require less effort than reading a book is a sure sign that the person is not willing to put the necessary effort into learning. Technology doesn't make book learning obsolete, it just gives us new tools to better customize the learning to an individual's needs. Electronic books that can include graphics and video can provide a great educational experience.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 19, 2014 08:47AM)
Obviously, "ww", my comments are not for you and your views even if I disagree with some of your interpretations.

The problem is the general perception of, "I am a visual learner so please send me a DVD -- I can't learn from a book."

This is an incorrect view of learning. Some of your comments seem to support this attitude even if your objective is to illustrate that mixed media is best.

The real problem is the assumption that magic can be learned by watching someone else doing it and attempting to emulate their actions.

Words on a page, photos or videos can only provide part of the information and knowledge essential to being an accomplished magician.

To pretend that changing the visual media to some other preferred form will make a difference is folly.

I have some effect in which the basic instructions of the "trick," and "effect" only fill a single page and could be demonstrated on video.

I also provide 20 pages of support information on theory, reason why a particular sleight is used, psychological ploys and subtleties -- none of which can be on a video.

So, the plea "just give me something I can see" is a refusal to do the work to learn magic.

this is a reality. If you wish to really want to learn how to be an accomplished magician you must read, must practice functionally, must perform in front of people and must come to 'understand" the secrets of what makes magic work.

Thus does not allow for "preference of leaning media." You either are willing to do the work or not.

If you just want to do tricks to impress your girl friend no learning is required. Just show her the YouTube clip and claim it is you.

but, saying there is no difference between hearing someone speak words and and reading them is so "wrong" to me that I want to weep. This both denies any skill in verbal story telling or verbal argument and the fact that reading a book is under your control. You can pick it up or put it down, flip back to read a precious passage or pause to look up a word in the dictionary. In watching video the assimilation possibilities are controlled by someone else. In listening to someone speak your leariing is limited by there rate of presentations and many distractions -- none under your control.

But -- I will admit that what you say is a step up from the general view and assumptions -- so please keep posting ;-)
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Dec 19, 2014 10:06AM)
"but, saying there is no difference between hearing someone speak words and and reading them is so "wrong" to me that I want to weep. This both denies any skill in verbal story telling or verbal argument and the fact that reading a book is under your control. You can pick it up or put it down, flip back to read a precious passage or pause to look up a word in the dictionary. In watching video the assimilation possibilities are controlled by someone else. In listening to someone speak your leariing is limited by there rate of presentations and many distractions -- none under your control. " - funsway


actually, I would agree with all of that. I would even add that two people speaking the exact same words or reading publicly the same book can deliver two different messages. Also in reading a book , you may provide a completely wrong interpretation to what was written due to a variety of reasons.

Perhaps you misunderstood my comment. I think you were referencing the following comment: "Just because you use your eyes to see the words instead of your ears to hear the auditory sounds doesn't mean that it addresses the needs of visual learners." I am trying to reference the idea that just because reading is a form of visual learning that doesn't mean that it addresses the needs of the visual learner. It is an upgrade from strictly auditory learning, but far more needs to be done than just words on a page.

As I said, books can be great for visual learners, so can dvds. Either can also be bad. Dvds can provide some things that books cannot, especially for visual learners. But I have also "never" found a dvd that contained all the info that can be put in a book. Personally, I am an avid reader. I enjoy movies, but typically find them inferior to the book they are based on.

I think we mostly agree.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Dec 19, 2014 11:20AM)
A most stimulating and educational discussion!

I'll 'stay tooned'!

I'm finding this especially interesting, and informative, because, although, my college was "liberal arts", I've been a mentor and also a teacher, since I was old enough to share information with another person!

My summers, for many years, were spent in Boy Scout Camps. Many of those years, I was in management. In later years, I directed a training course for new adult scouters, who had had no scouting experience as a youth. They needed to learn basic outdoor living skills so they could train the junior leaders in their troops, so the junior leaders could pass the skills along to the younger scouts.

I was thrilled to receive great positive comments on the course. Especially appreciated was my knot tying skills course. (Many people are "psyched out" by knots!)

I simply developed a system of verbally and physically sharing basic and fundamentsl knowledge and skills, combined with hands on practice. (How do you eat an elephant?!?!) I had picked up a 3 line "summary" of learning: "I hear, I forget, I see, I may remember, I do, I "got it"! So, I cut the "lecturing" to a minimum. I used more demonstrations. I used lots of projects. The basic "teaching method" was "EXPLAIN, DEMONSTRATE, GUIDE, ENABLE". The Guiding and Enabling phases involved POSITIVE COACHING AND MENTORING.

I sure wish that I had had more courses in teaching methods!

I usually began the course, by emphasizing that, "I can't really TEACH you anything--I can only HELP YOU LEARN. --And, I followed that up by quoting Sophocles: "One learns by DOING the thing!"

Thanks Ken, and "ww" for your excellent input.
Message: Posted by: wwhokie1 (Dec 19, 2014 01:05PM)
I hear, I see, I do, makes a great 3 line summary. I would suggest a fourth line: I teach. When someone can explain it or teach it back to you or to someone else, then they really know it. I find that being able to teach it to someone else makes me think through the process in ways I didn't before.

Anyway you look at it, there are no short cuts to learning. And the lazy seldom learn anything. Learning takes time and effort. Better quality materials, and/or a better quality instructor, combined with a lot of hard work by the student can speed up the process.

One problem in today's society is the reliance on screens for every aspect of life. Which so often results in people wanting to sit and absorb without doing. I think this is what many react to when they discuss using video for learning. You cannot turn learning into a passive endeavor. Learning is active work, which is why I agree so much with Dick's comment above, "I can't really TEACH you anything--I can only HELP YOU LEARN." The best teacher in the world cannot teach an unwilling student.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Dec 19, 2014 02:38PM)
I think that "thee" and me, and Ken,also, had the same mother! (We seem to think pretty much alike. We'll always have minor differences, but that makes life more interesting. Discussion leads to agreement, often.

I like the way you've stated your thoughts. I also like the "teach" the "next guy" concept.

Yup, (no short cuts) Who was the Egyptian Pharaoh's son who asked his teacher for a short cut, and the teacher replied, "There are many Royal roads, but no Royal road to learning."

I forgot to mention that I also tell the group after "I cannot teach you anything, I can only help you learn" --because LEARNING IS AN ACTIVE NOT PASSVE PROCESS. I note that you and I are in agreement on that point, we just express our thoughts slightly differently.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 19, 2014 03:03PM)
I'd like to sweeten the pot with a couple of other thoughts. The most ancient learning principles I have found are "Attention-Retention"

Make sure you get and sustain attention, then provide some reason for the learner to retain it. The latter usually meant some story or example.

When teaching classes as a substitute and students started some diversion game I just stopped until they gave me attention again. I always told a story or did some magic to give them a hook to remember by.

On the visual side I have found the sillier the illustration is the more the concept will be remembered.

........

Consider how Christ taught. He asked questions and told stories. Why do we think we can improve on that?

.....................
The Interrogative Speech Method can be simplified to "Tell 'em what you plan to say, Tell 'em, Tell 'em what you told them." In education this becomes "Preview, Substance, Review"

In strategy this becomes "Plan, Execute, Report -- and so on.

....

Within all these approaches is the assumption that the instructor observes how the student is receptive to the material and changes the media to meet the needs of each student, i.e. you present the material with the media mix most likely to work for the group and then mediate the training to meet individual needs often as the result of questions or a quiz. At the college level it was assumed that the student studied the core material before coming to class, with class time spent on questions and examples to meet individual needs. Somehow this has been lost.

For the learning of magic the best process is Mentored Instruction -- difficult to do with worthy student often far from the Mentor. Skype is a possibility, but I would always require some scaffolding understanding of knowledge and a demonstration of commitment before getting involved. The key is to create an environment in which the student might learn -- then remove the barriers to self-learning.
Message: Posted by: dman11 (Dec 25, 2014 12:45PM)
There is 12 separate downloadstream lessons for Aaron fishers Pathways to Mastery:

http://www.penguinmagic.com/search.php?q=Pathways+to+mastery

You can also try Steve Faulkners online Card magic course:

http://cardmagiccourse.com/

Or for a more well rounded online magic course here:

http://www.encyclopediaofmagic.com.au/

As a side note - I would prefer to have these on DVD than streams or downloads ! For instance "Pathways 1, The shuffle system" if there is a particular shuffle I wanted to work on I can pop a dvd in and go right to it from the menu's. Instead I have to blindly pop around on a stream - wait for it to buffer, and keep hoping I hit the right spot which always takes more than just a few guesses - BLAHHH. However, I should mention that Steve Faulkners online course is very easy to navigate to what you need.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Dec 25, 2014 03:54PM)
I think what disturbs me is this:

[quote]On Dec 14, 2014, KenRyan wrote:
My main computer is a MacBook Air. My secondary "computer" is an iPad. There are no DVD drives. Why? [b]Because it is 20-freaking-14.[/b] I'm currently in the middle of watching a 4 hour video course on Lynda.com. It's not like bandwidth is a problem on the interwebs anymore.[/quote]

Interweb? What the hell is that? My laptop is a Dell Inspiron 1200. It does not "stream" very well. YouTube works on this thing ONLY if I download (if I CAN) the vid and play on my VLC Player. I had an iPad for exactly a month. It broke and will cost hundreds to repair. A total POS!

I'm now 59, and it's almost 20-freaking-[i]15![/i] You young-uns and your technology! Can't keep up with it! (Toddering off with my cane to my rocker)

Doug
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 26, 2014 04:12AM)
I new wrinkle on the techie-smart youth and the "need" for access.

In one of my rental house the provided TV service is Dish and the Internet ATT. The modem is plugged into a phone outlet in the back room.

The tenant is am electrician and part-time Web Designer. He decided to rearrange the furniture in the house. I got an emergency call that the Internet was not working.

He had moved the modem to the front room and plugged it into the satellite system! Since the plugs didn't match - duhhhh,
he had connected output to output with a HDMI so it would not have worked even if there were internet on the Dish system.

So, I suggest that some of the problems of the "I want" folks has nothing to do with technology. If you give knives to children they cut themselves.

ON the other hand, another tenant is planning on doing some of their work from home and asked if the increased usage time would be a problem, so, I cannot say that all younger people think that "bandwidth is not a problem."

It is a problem that I must now address in future contracts, probably meaning I can no longer provide Internet as an "included" service.

If the tents have to provide it for themselves it will cost, on average, $60 a month more that what I can prod on shared basis.

Stream away guys, pretend the Bandwidth is unlimited -- until you get the bill.
Message: Posted by: MagicKingdom10 (Dec 26, 2014 05:02AM)
[quote]On Dec 14, 2014, KenRyan wrote:
This is part rant (apologies up front), but mostly I'm asking a genuine question. I am trying to soak up the study of magic like a sponge. And I've discovered that I am a VERY visual learner. Videos are invaluable to me. I just wasn't understanding several of the moves in Giobbi's "Introduction to Card Magic" until I followed the YouTube links in the pdf. So very helpful! I'm almost afraid to move on to CC1 (which is sitting right here), because it's a book. There are no YouTube links in books:-P.

But the alternative is always "get the DVDs." Gah! I run a web business whose main products are video tutorials. People buy the courses and are given immediate access to all the videos, which they can either stream from the site (a la YouTube), or (if they must), download to their computers.

My main computer is a MacBook Air. My secondary "computer" is an iPad. There are no DVD drives. Why? Because it is 20-freaking-14. I'm currently in the middle of watching a 4 hour video course on Lynda.com. It's not like bandwidth is a problem on the interwebs anymore.

So now that my little rant is over - I have an actual question. Are there any good tutorials that are web video products? I'm not talking about free videos. I am, of course, willing to pay for these courses. But I'm probably never going to buy a DVD for training unless I absolutely have to. I won't be able to watch it unless I want to co-opt my family's TV so I can study magic.

Am I just going to have to suck it up and find a way to watch DVDs? I suspect I know the answer. But you never know until you ask.

Thanks!

Ken [/quote]

Thank you! Very philosophical :)
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Dec 26, 2014 01:35PM)
I'm glad I happened upon this thread, it's been a fascinating read, and the posters know far more than I do about learning, so I won't contribute with my naive/ignorant comments.

I do however, often worry about our emerging and growing reliance - as a culture - on digital media. Not in a paranoid, conspiracy-theorist way...just realistically concerned about a reliance on any one information method. Let's just say that in the next ten years - or sooner - all information, past, present, and future, was available only via electronic mediums. And then let's say there was a catastrophe. And the grid goes down...for a week, a month, a year...

Suddenly, people begin to talk to each other, and teach each other face-to-face, and they use other things too...books and drawings. Sure, I realize nothing is indestructible, and in a real catastrophic event, people would be just trying to survive (although they may look for a first-aid book), I just like options. Give me words on paper, and words as ones and zeros. And let me make the choice.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 26, 2014 06:35PM)
Look at the bright side, Oz. I a couple of years, instead of doing magic effects you can entertain people by adding a column of figures on sheet of paper or demonstrating a slide-rule.

Imagine being able to find a requested word in a dictionary quickly by using the magic of the index words at the top of the page.

Even now, the popular book "A Christmas Tale" contains an explanation of a complex divination system bette than card-flipping fortune telling.

But mist people have only seen ten different version on a TV screen and have never read the book.

Everyone knows the story but not the secrets.

A the world de-evolves into chaos, the enterprising magician will have boundless oportunities.
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Dec 26, 2014 07:40PM)
Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Deal with the reality that there will never be computer usage for the whole world. Media has nothing to do with it. Reality is that even after all this time there are plenty of people who STILL don't have telephone service or even service available! Geographic TV broadcast service is less now than it was 50 years ago! Frankly, local news is less available now than it was then!

As an old Graduate Marketing Professor, I have advised clients to cut their advertising budgets for local TV because they actually reach fewer viewers now than they did before digital TV. In many cases even the US Mail does a better job of diffusion of information.

In the world of business "learning" is measured by the diffusion of innovation. There is no monopoy on effective delivery method. We "target" to be more effective. (Note that some of the highest paid talent in the company is still sales staff, not IT.) One size does not fit all.

Ever thought about the fact that for the accomplished, on average, average is unacceptable?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Woolery (Dec 26, 2014 09:39PM)
Wizard of Oz, take the time to find Ray Bradbury's story "Almost the End of the World." Very entertaining look at what life would be like if radio and TV vanished. He was writing pre-internet with this story, but the premise remains valid.

-Patrick
Message: Posted by: gomerel (Dec 26, 2014 10:06PM)
There is an old Polish saying that has become popular. "Not my circus, not my monkeys." Whatever.
Message: Posted by: BeThePlunk (Dec 27, 2014 06:56AM)
One point about DVD versus download that hasn't been made yet. You can re-sell a DVD after you've done your learning and recoup some of your outlay. You can't do that with a download. Downloads provide instant gratification, and that's a plus, but financially they are better for the distributor than the customer.
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Dec 27, 2014 10:21AM)
LOL -- True! A current lesson might be Windows 8 (which is all you can get on new pc computers). If a part of it ever gets deleted you have no way to recover it yourself. Since there is no CD you have to go back to MS (where you can spend more time waiting than the computer is worth). The games with it got accidentally deleted from mine. Therefore Windows 8 has made me an Apple MAC user! (And I had to buy an external CD for many of my other uses!)

There is also a VERY GOOD reason why some magic props are worth more used than they were new! It is a case of fitting the need. Lack of availability new is seldom the only solution.

PS --- Learn to write cursive too! Adults use it.
Message: Posted by: gomerel (Dec 27, 2014 01:53PM)
[quote]On Dec 27, 2014, Bob Sanders wrote:
LOL -- True! A current lesson might be Windows 8 (which is all you can get on new pc computers). If a part of it ever gets deleted you have no way to recover it yourself. Since there is no CD you have to go back to MS (where you can spend more time waiting than the computer is worth). The games with it got accidentally deleted from mine. Therefore Windows 8 has made me an Apple MAC user! (And I had to buy an external CD for many of my other uses!)

There is also a VERY GOOD reason why some magic props are worth more used than they were new! It is a case of fitting the need. Lack of availability new is seldom the only solution.

PS --- Learn to write cursive too! Adults use it. [/quote]

Yes, DVDs have their pluses. I have recently had all 3 of my computers crash, including both pc and mac sections of my mac. Sooo tired of reinstalling stuff. I was, of course, able to download tutorials from Penguin but it tooks some time.

Yes, why in the world are some schools not teaching cursive??? That is absurd.
Message: Posted by: RookieMage (Dec 27, 2014 05:25PM)
I can relate to the puzzle of how best to learn magic of various types, books, DVDs, streaming vids and downloads, and so many to choose from. One thought for you that comes to my mind, many DVDs can be had in the secondary market, like on eBay or Amazon, at bargain prices vs buying the product new from a new product retailer. It might make sense to pick up an external DVD drive for your Mac computer, just to take advantage of some of the great bargains that are out there on optical media. I see these drives on sale for as little as $35 US, brand new, and when you combine the one-time expense of an affordable drive with a great deal on a magic DVD, maybe it makes sense to go old-school DVD media now and then...?
Message: Posted by: 55Hudson (Dec 27, 2014 05:45PM)
Times change. Some things for the better and some, perhaps, not.

I was recently told by a 30 year-old she had written her fiancé a letter in cursive - he could not read it. I suspect it is much more difficult to find elementary schools that teach cursive than to find ones that do not teach it.

Given the rate of change - real-to-real, 8 Track, Casset, BetaMax, VHS, DVD, download, streaming - who knows what format will be useful 30 years from now?

For me, books first, then DVDs. Most DVDs downloaded into Dropbox where they are available for my electronic devices and I don't worry about loss. The best videos/ones I'm working on, are downloaded to my iPad so I don't have to rely on access to Dropbox at all times or consume bandwidth when away from home.

Hudson
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Dec 28, 2014 07:35AM)
IPads! I'm furious about this thing! Anyone else have one break? Where the power cord plugs in? Forget repairing it yourself. They made it so you can't! Cheap-ass Apple products! Grrr!

Doug
Message: Posted by: Remillard (Dec 28, 2014 10:14AM)
[quote]On Dec 28, 2014, Dougini wrote:
IPads! I'm furious about this thing! Anyone else have one break? Where the power cord plugs in? Forget repairing it yourself. They made it so you can't! Cheap-ass Apple products! Grrr!

Doug [/quote]

Never broken the chargeing connector, but I've dropped a few and smashed the screen over the years. Apple care plus. Walk into the store, hand them 40 bucks and they hand you a replacement. Well worth the extra hundred at purchase.
Message: Posted by: Remillard (Dec 28, 2014 10:19AM)
Gotta say I'm really glad I read this thread. Reminded me to back up all of my downloaded media to an external HD. Fifty plus gig of lectures, e-books, and tutorials copying now. I'd hate to have to recover all of this stuff if it got lost.
Message: Posted by: tommyellison (Dec 28, 2014 11:26AM)
Http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD564ZM/A/apple-usb-superdrive
Message: Posted by: Bob Sanders (Dec 29, 2014 07:13AM)
Thanks Tommy!

This helped me find the store in Birmingham.
Message: Posted by: Aus (Dec 29, 2014 09:30AM)
I have to say reading the very well discussed issue of visual learning by Fundsway and wwhokie1 I wish the points and distinctions they have made where a focus of our education system when I was at school. When I started primary school we would have two books, one with the complete alphabet from A to Z with pictures starting with the said letter and another book with our times tables from one to ten and we would verbally recite from these books as our daily morning ritual.

Upon reflection I think I learned my alphabet not from reciting it but from the alphabet song that the kids started to sing at school, as for my times tables I never grasped those at all. At school I was always in the special maths class or getting some tuition from a remedial teacher but none of it seemed to help. I'm not sure why that was, but I feel that the curriculum that was forced on me to be adopted was very linear with little room to move and the teaching skill of the teacher and their ability to adapt to the student was less then adequate. Whatever it was, it was just an overwhelming feeling that education was a chore not a pleasurable experience and maybe if the same motivations that I enjoy in learning magic where used in my educational life things may have been different.

Speaking from experience later in life a person will seek out alternatives that will best suit their needs, as that is what I did in the end for myself.

Anyway, my intention wasn't to derail this discussion with my ramblings, just the topic hit a personal cord with me is all.

Back to the discussion.

Magically

Aus
Message: Posted by: tommyellison (Dec 29, 2014 01:51PM)
[quote]On Dec 29, 2014, Bob Sanders wrote:
Thanks Tommy!

This helped me find the store in Birmingham. [/quote]

The Apple Store at the Summit gets almost as much money as the Magic dealers I trade with... LOL

See ya soon at a Ring 35 meeting.

Tommy
Message: Posted by: markymarkmagicuk (Jan 2, 2015 09:56AM)
Having grown up in Magic from the late 70s, books were my only choice from the local library. However, I did love buying a new magic trick from a toy store back then and getting home, opening the box, checking out the props to see if I could see the secret, then eventually sit there with props in hand whilst reading through the instructions (usually very badly written on a small piece of paper). It was all part of the hobby/interest, reading instructions or books on magic.
But we have reached the world of tech and I have to admit in this fast paced world we now live in, watching a video tutorial is so much better.
I know that joining a magic club is good, unfortunately these are few and far between, and not always possible to get too, so to have a person demonstrate a move or sleight on video is like having a personal tutor in your room, and most of the time much easier to understand than the written word or a dozen poorly photographed pictures in a book!
As I come from a time before internet and YouTube, I still like to buy the actual DVD (something I can keep and pick up, something tangible), unlike my kids whose entire music collection is in digital download on a hard drive, not quite the same to me!
In conclusion, Books are nice to read at times, but video is so much easier (or maybe that's because I'm lazy!!)
Message: Posted by: Arabian tricker (Jan 4, 2015 02:07AM)
Books combined with videos is the best choice!
Message: Posted by: tommyellison (Jan 5, 2015 01:31PM)
I was watching the old original movie Time Machine by H.G. Wells the other day, and in the future, all the books/history/archives had been translated into some type of magical ring that when spun, actually played an audio broadcast of the archived info.

http://youtu.be/6NRMYUpgyJ8

Is this where we are going? Fun to consider that someone is probably working on such technology that surpasses all existing devices to provide a generic method of accessing the history of the race.

<Daydream over> Back to work...
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 5, 2015 04:16PM)
I don't know for sure why it "fits" here, but I've written it quite a few times - "...quite often for every bit of progress we take a step or two backward."
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Jan 5, 2015 04:46PM)
[quote]On Dec 14, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever. [/quote]
You are very obviously not a teacher.
Message: Posted by: Remillard (Jan 5, 2015 09:39PM)
I for one find that the combination of books and video works best for me. Visual demonstration of sleights can help make the verbal descriptions much clearer. Having said that, books can go into much more detail on the reasoning and philosophy behind a move. A video may show you HOW a move is done, but a book will tell you WHY it is done.
Message: Posted by: Bill Thompson (Jan 6, 2015 01:26PM)
First of all I have nothing against DVD/Video, Heck I own several and they are wonderful tools to learn from. But, I still think that the ability to "read magic" must not be discarded. It is a skill that develops over time. Reading magic is hard, it hard to comprehend and written in what seems to be different language. But there is far too much that you will never know unless you develop this skill.
Message: Posted by: Wilktone (Jan 7, 2015 10:59PM)
The idea of adapting instruction to a student's learning style originated in the 1970s (some of you my age might remember taking those standardized tests that were supposed to tell what sort of learner you were). There has been a lot of time to tweak this pedagogical approach and really investigate it scientifically. Our current understanding is that adapting instruction because a student has a supposed learning style does not show better end results. If you feel you're a "visual learner" what you really are expressing is a particular learning preference. Limiting yourself to only visual media will not help you learn as well as taking in other media as well.

Magic is a visual art. I don't understand why anyone would want to discourage a beginner from learning it in a visual medium. Books have a lot of value too. In-person instruction, of course, being the best case scenario. Depending on how serious a magician you want to become, everyone will have to make their own choices of which media to emphasize in their study according to their own goals and particular level of interest and ability.

That said, I think that the type of media you use is less important than the quality of instruction you're getting. Personally, I prefer to look for materials by magicians who demonstrate good teaching using good material, whether it be on the page or on the screen.

Dave
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 8, 2015 01:56AM)
Dave, you have a unique opportunity to chat with Ricky Boone there in Asheville.

You can learn things of magic other than from "learning styles.' Maybe you can even be part of the Vanishing WheelChair Project.

I am not far away either. and have some VHS's you might enjoy ;-)
Message: Posted by: 55Hudson (Jan 8, 2015 07:15AM)
[quote]On Jan 7, 2015, Wilktone wrote:

That said, I think that the type of media you use is less important than the quality of instruction you're getting. Personally, I prefer to look for materials by magicians who demonstrate good teaching using good material, whether it be on the page or on the screen.

Dave [/quote]


Well said

Hudson
Message: Posted by: SamanthaO (Jan 20, 2015 09:23AM)
KenRyan, Idk if you know there's this DVD-player-disk-drive which you can attach to your laptop via USB port... That would solve your problems somewhat I should think.

Books are good in that they really force you to think about your presentation so much more. I find that most of the time when I learn from a video, I pick up the performer's way of doing it but when I learn from a book, I'm forced to be more creative. Pros and cons.

Def think it's also a matter of getting used to the style of writing.

Join a magic club! But also when you struggle on your own with books etc it forces you to adapt the handling to your own style and hands instead of continually doing it in XYZ's handling, which may not look as natural/as good as a way of doing it in your own hands.
Message: Posted by: B. Edwards (Jan 26, 2015 11:29PM)
The problem I had especially with card magic books is I'm left-handed, so while reading, in my mind I have to think "the left is right, right is left." Needless to say, this can make for slow learning and a bit confusing sometimes.

Videos work best for me because I can 'mirror' the actions as I see them. I am starting to warm up to e-books and have bought several so far. I've done a bit of PDF editing over the years, so if I can figure a way of batch editing and switching the words "right hand" and left hand" in the PDFs, I'll have a much easier time absorbing the information. As I would now have a left-handed magic book. :D


Brian
Message: Posted by: 1KJ (Feb 2, 2015 11:24AM)
I understand that streaming video is part of your business, but that always makes me nervous. What if the company housing the video goes out of business? I prefer to have either DVDs or downloads.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Feb 3, 2015 03:16AM)
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, B. Edwards wrote:
The problem I had especially with card magic books is I'm left-handed, so while reading, in my mind I have to think "the left is right, right is left." Needless to say, this can make for slow learning and a bit confusing sometimes.

Videos work best for me because I can 'mirror' the actions as I see them. I am starting to warm up to e-books and have bought several so far. I've done a bit of PDF editing over the years, so if I can figure a way of batch editing and switching the words "right hand" and left hand" in the PDFs, I'll have a much easier time absorbing the information. As I would now have a left-handed magic book. :D


Brian [/quote]

I can imagine you watching a video in a mirror -- and illusion of an illusion,

but then you might wind up performing with your back to the audience.

Seriously, if you look for the "method" rather than the "technique" the hand orientation will not matter so much.

My hand disabilities prevent me from doing many standard sleights such as CP, but I do not skip those effects -- and the learning approach doesn't matter. I use what is available.

I start with the desired end result and work backwards. I use alternative sleights or invent new ones.

However, recent neurobiological studies have shown that a left to right scanning is innate in the animal world.

This means your audience will be more comfortable observing effects that move from their left to their right.

Not saying you should learn to do all effects right handed -- just something to thing about.

You might also stick to card effect with vertical orientation and it won't matter.
Message: Posted by: B. Edwards (Feb 5, 2015 10:42PM)
Funsway, I appreciate the tips, thanks. :)

But I've spent almost 50 years adapting to a "right-handed" world (I even learned to play guitar right-handed). Magic is just a hobby to me, I have no ambitions to get paid for what I do. I just want to study some great magic from the masters, and entertain a few friends when asked. No one has pointed out that I was performing left-handed in the past. So I see no reason to change now. I do practice a few things right-handed such as fans and peeks, I even do a decent right-handed Elmsley. ;)

I too, have some "hand disabilities". Numbness in part of my right hand and several fingers. I have had to change the way of doing some things. So I'm not likely to be an expert card manipulator in this lifetime. :shrug:

But, like you... I overcome and adapt.

It's something I've been doing since I was a child. :D


Brian