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Topic: Chris Kyle -American Sniper
Message: Posted by: Magic from A to Z (Jan 19, 2015 11:56AM)
This was shared with me by a friend and thought I'd pass this along. Since the movie is being talked about by the Hollywood crowd, I’m passing on some details I did not know about regarding Chris Kyle’s funeral in Texas.

TEXAS GOODBYE

This is why America will remain strong. We take care of our own as well as others who may not deserve taking care of. I just wanted to share with you all that out of a horrible tragedy we were blessed by so many people.

Chris Kyle was Derek's teammate through 10 years of training and battle. They both suffer/suffered from PTSD to some extent and took great care of each other because of it. 2006 in Ramadi was horrible for young men that never had any more aggressive physical contact with another human than on a Texas football field.

They lost many friends. Chris became the armed services number #1 sniper of all time. Not something he was happy about, other than the fact that in so doing, he saved a lot of American lives.

Three years ago, his wife Taya asked him to leave the SEAL teams as he had a huge bounty on his head by Al Qaeda. He did and wrote the book "The American Sniper." 100% of the proceeds from the book went to two of the SEAL families who had lost their sons in Iraq . That was the kind of guy Chris was. He formed a company in Dallas to train military, police and I think firemen as far as protecting themselves in difficult situations. He also formed a foundation to work with military people suffering from PTSD. Chris was a giver not a taker.

He, along with a friend and neighbor, Chad Littlefield, were murdered trying to help a young man that had served six months in Iraq and claimed to have PTSD.

Now I need to tell you about all of the blessings.

· Southwest Airlines flew in any SEAL and their family from any airport they flew into...free of charge.

· The employees donated buddy passes and one lady worked for four days without much of a break to see that it happened.

· Volunteers were at both airports in Dallas to drive them to the hotel.

· The Marriott Hotel reduced their rates to $45 a night and cleared the hotel for only SEALs and family.

· The Midlothian, TX Police Department paid the $45 a night for each room. I would guess there were about 200 people staying at the hotel, 100 of them were SEALs. Two large buses were chartered (an unknown donor paid the bill) to transport people to the different events and they also had a few rental cars (donated). The police and secret service were on duty 24 hours during the stay at our hotel.

· At the Kyle house, the Texas DPS parked a large motor home in front to block the view from reporters. It remained there the entire five days for the SEALs to congregate in and all to use the restroom so as not to have to go in the house. Taya, their two small children and both sets of parents were staying in the home.

· Only a hand full of SEALs went into the home as they had different duties and meetings were held sometimes on an hourly basis. It was a huge coordination of many different events and security. Derek was assigned to be a Pall Bearer, to escort Chris' body when it was transferred from the Midlothian Funeral Home to the Arlington Funeral Home, and to be with Taya. A tough job.

· Taya seldom came out of her bedroom. The house was full with people from the church and other family members that would come each day to help. I spent one morning in a bedroom with Chris’ mom and the next morning with Chad Littlefield's parents (the other man murdered with Chris). A tough job.

· George W Bush and his wife Laura met and talked to everyone on the Seal Team one on one. They went behind closed doors with Taya for quite a while. They had prayer with us all. You can tell when people were sincere and caring.

· Nolan Ryan sent his cooking team, a huge grill and lots of steaks, chicken and hamburgers. They set up in the front yard and fed people all day long including the 200 SEALs and their families. The next day a local BBQ restaurant set up a buffet in front of the house and fed all once again. Food was plentiful and all were taken care of. The family's church kept those inside the house well fed.

· Jerry Jones, the man everyone loves to hate, was a rock star. He made sure that we all were taken care of. His wife and he were just making sure everyone was taken care of….Class... He donated the use of Cowboy Stadium for the services as it was determined that so many wanted to attend.

· The charter buses transported us to the stadium on Monday at 10:30 am. Every car, bus, motorcycle was searched with bomb dogs and police. I am not sure if kooks were making threats trying to make a name for themselves or if so many SEALs in one place was a security risk, I don't know. We willingly obliged. No purses went into the stadium!

We were taken to The Legends room high up and a large buffet was available. That was for about 300 people. We were growing. A Medal of Honor recipient was there, lots of secret service and police and Sarah Palin and her husband. She looked nice, this was a very formal military service.

The service started at 1:00 pm and when we were escorted onto the field I was shocked. We heard that about 10,000 people had come to attend also. They were seated in the stadium seats behind us. It was a beautiful and emotional service.

The Bagpipe and drum corps were wonderful and the Texas A&M men's choir stood through the entire service and sang right at the end. We were all in tears.

The next day was the 200-mile procession from Midlothian, TX to Austin for burial. It was a cold, drizzly, windy day, but the people were out. We had dozens of police motorcycles riders, freedom riders, five chartered buses and lots of cars. You had to have a pass to be in the procession and still it was huge. Two helicopters circled the procession with snipers sitting out the side door for protection. It was the longest funeral procession ever in the state of Texas. People were everywhere. The entire route was shut down ahead of us, the people were lined up on the side of the road the entire way. Firemen were down on one knee, police officers were holding their hats over their hearts, children waving flags, veterans saluting as we went by. Every bridge had fire trucks with large flags displayed from their tall ladders, people all along the entire 200 miles were standing in the cold weather. It was so heartwarming. Taya rode in the hearse with Chris' body so Derek rode the route with us. I was so grateful to have that time with him.

The service was at Texas National Cemetery. Very few are buried there and you have to apply to get in. It is like people from the Civil War, Medal of Honor winners, a few from the Alamo and all the historical people of Texas. It was a nice service and the Freedom Riders surrounded the outside of the entire cemetery to keep the crazy church people from Kansas that protest at military funerals away from us.

Each SEAL put his Trident (metal SEAL badge) on the top of Chris' casket, one at a time. A lot hit it in with one blow. Derek was the only one to take four taps to put his in and it was almost like he was caressing it as he did it. Another tearful moment.

After the service Governor Rick Perry and his wife, Anita, invited us to the governor's mansion. She stood at the door, greeted each of us individually, and gave each of the SEALs a coin of Texas. She was a sincere, compassionate, and gracious hostess.

We were able to tour the ground floor and then went into the garden for beverages and BBQ. So many of the Seal team guys said that after they get out they are moving to Texas. They remarked that they had never felt so much love and hospitality. The charter buses then took the guys to the airport to catch their returning flights. Derek just now called and after a 20 hours flight he is back in his spot, in a dangerous land on the other side of the world, protecting America.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Jan 19, 2015 12:07PM)
Wonderful story ... thanks so much or sharing.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Jan 19, 2015 11:23PM)
I must ask. Was this not a national news story? I ask because I was not aware of this. Did I miss the coverage or was it now newsworthy?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 19, 2015 11:39PM)
[quote]On Jan 19, 2015, Magic from A to Z wrote:
This was shared with me by a friend and thought I'd pass this along. Since the movie is being talked about by the Hollywood crowd, I’m passing on some details I did not know about regarding Chris Kyle’s funeral in Texas.

TEXAS GOODBYE
[/quote]
That TEXAS GOODBYE has been well circulated for many months on many sites. (Just saying, for those who have not seen it before.)

I'm just curious, did you intentionally omit the "Punchline" that often comes with it or was that part not forwarded to you?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 19, 2015 11:42PM)
[quote]On Jan 20, 2015, acesover wrote:

I must ask. Was this not a national news story? I ask because I was not aware of this. Did I miss the coverage or was it now newsworthy? [/quote]
I don't know if it was a "national" news story (though I imagine it was), but I can confirm that it certainly was an "international" news story.

E.g. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2277726/Chris-Kyle-Americas-deadliest-sniper-buried-200-mile-funeral-procession-Texas.html
Message: Posted by: Magic from A to Z (Jan 20, 2015 11:10PM)
[quote]
I'm just curious, did you intentionally omit the "Punchline" that often comes with it or was that part not forwarded to you? [/quote]

What's the "Punchline"?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 21, 2015 12:52AM)
Predictably enough, the punchline is pretty much what a certain forum member posted the other day.

But you can find the full text of the Texas Goodbye at these links (lots of others online if you search). The punchline is at the end:

https://www.facebook.com/ray.eder.5/posts/10203233616463367

http://patriotsforamerica.ning.com/forum/topics/a-texas-goodbye-i-don-t-know-who-wrote-this-but-to-whomever-god-b

http://mwamericanpolitics.blogspot.ca/2015/01/sniper.html

I question the full truthfulness of the essay due to the tone of the punchline, and that various sites claim different authors for the essay.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Jan 21, 2015 12:05PM)
Doing one's patriotic duty is neither a far-left nor a far-right issue. Anyone who makes sacrifices for their country (whether that is firing a weapon, fixing an engine, feeding starving refugees, or working a desk job) deserves our respect and should be honored.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 21, 2015 01:19PM)
I'm with balducci. The "punchline" just ruined it all for me...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 21, 2015 02:32PM)
Ditto
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Jan 21, 2015 02:49PM)
When you have to kill people, you have to kill people. When you don't, you don't.

If you do, and you can do it for your country, then you are a hero. If you do, and you can do it for another reason, you are not a hero. Right?

Ban me from the Café, and ban me from America, but listen:
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Jan 21, 2015 03:29PM)
OK, I have now seen the punchline (compliments of Balducci's links above).

Can anyone tell me why that punchline ruins the story?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 21, 2015 06:01PM)
[quote]On Jan 21, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
OK, I have now seen the punchline (compliments of Balducci's links above).

Can anyone tell me why that punchline ruins the story? [/quote]
Whether or not it ruins the story, I don't know. I don't think I said that, myself. But I think it changes the tone of the essay. Here are some random thoughts on this.

Instead of an essay celebrating Kyle, it now comes across as an essay written using Kyle's funeral as a prop with which to attack the President.

It takes a backhanded swipe at someone who took a courageous stand (the athlete who came out ... the NFL player, I think). You may not approve, but what the athlete did was still brave at the time, and meaningful for many people.

Factually, coming out as the first openly gay NFL athlete may be more impressive and deserving of a call than someone getting shot (at least in a non-war, non-terrorist, shooting situation with no controversy associated with it).

Kyle said himself that he was no fan of politics. So would he have approved of someone using his name to make a political attack? Maybe not.

Kyle (and subsequently his estate) were involved in a defamation suit at the time. So it may not have been appropriate for the President to comment or speak as to Kyle's character at the time.

Kyle had a lot of issues. Among other things, he proudly claimed to have shot and killed civilians in the U.S. (during Katrina, and in Texas) basically because he could do so and get away with it. Should the President praise such a guy?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 21, 2015 06:04PM)
BTW, my post above assumes the essay is accurate. For all I know, Obama did make a statement about Kyle that the essay fails to note.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 21, 2015 08:54PM)
Exactly. It's much like acesover's comment earlier that the President didn't even mention Kyle in his State of the Union address. Disingenuously ignoring the fact that the State of the Union address was given one month BEFORE Kyle's untimely death in an accident.

The same people criticizing the president about this were also loudly, and falsely, proclaiming that he ordered flags to be flown at half staff in honor of Whitney Houston after her passing, something he didn't do to honor Kyle. Of course, he did no such thing. The only place that flags were flown at half staff for Houston was in New Jersey, where it was done by order of Republican governor Chris Christie.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Jan 21, 2015 10:22PM)
Interesting. There's an article on the BBC online that I think pretty much sums up how one half of American audiences (the right) embraces Kyle as a hero, while the other half (the left) perceives him as a liar and a coward. Worth reading:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30923038

Some personal observations:

1. If the football player had come out in the 50's or even 60's, I would consider that pretty brave. But this is the age of same-sex marriage ... coming out is no longer a big deal. Certainly not worthy of a presidential mention.

2. Whoever added the "punchline" to the essay clearly had political motivation ... but for any patriotic American (regardless of which side they lean to), that shouldn't distract from the meaning of the original story. And besides, the OP did not include that punchline in his post. Someone else brought that up.

2. "Should President Obama praise a guy who claims to have shot Americans?" No, he'd probably rather be playing golf! (It's a JOKE, people!)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 21, 2015 10:28PM)
I think the BBC's conclusions are off. I believe Kyle was a great soldier, although I do have strong reservations about the looters he claimed to have shot to death during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as well as other stories that he claimed to be true but were never verified.

I believe, though, that there ARE those who are trying to make it a left/right issue and seek to exploit it for political ends.

From what I understand, Kyle himself was largely uninterested in politics.

[quote]...That sense of superhuman toughness perhaps led him to tell stories reporters couldn’t confirm. One involved a cold January morning at a gas station southwest of Dallas. Two armed men, he said, approached him and told him to hand over the keys to his black F350. “I told them I would get them the keys,” he told Mooney. “I told them they were in the truck and to just let me reach in.” Kyle then claimed he reached into the car, pulled out a gun and, shooting under his armpit, killed both men. “It’s true,” he said.

...According to the New Yorker and several military publications, Kyle and a few other SEALs drank late in San Diego late one night in early 2012. “The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one,” the New Yorker reported. “…He and another sniper traveled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceed to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos.” The magazine said one conversation participant said Kyle “claimed to have shot thirty men on his own,” while another said Kyle and the other killed 30 between them.

When the New Yorker’s Schmidle called the U.S. Special Operations Command for confirmation, he didn’t get any. Then one of Kyle’s officers told the reporter, “I never heard that story.”

Does that mean it didn’t happen? Who knows. It’s certainly possible that Kyle killed two Texan thieves and their bodies disappeared. And it’s also possible Kyle killed 30 armed assailants in New Orleans to protect its residents in Katrina’s aftermath. But it’s also possible Kyle couldn’t let go of his own legend, and, in a haze of post-traumatic stress, let his tales veer into untruth...[/quote]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/30/the-complicated-but-unveriable-legacy-of-chris-kyle-the-deadliest-sniper-in-american-history/
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 27, 2015 01:00PM)
The BBC's conclusions seem to be pretty spot on. The left certainly doesn't seem to care much for the movie or Chris Kyle.

http://www.salon.com/2015/01/26/american_snipers_biggest_lie_clint_eastwood_has_a_delusional_fox_news_problem/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

"We’ve learned that, despite the fact that the film depicts Kyle as a hero and a martyr, the real American sniper was heartless and cruel. Rather than struggle with moral dilemmas as we see in the film, the actual man had no such hesitation and no such conscience."

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/american-sniper-is-almost-too-dumb-to-criticize-20150121

"But to turn the Iraq war into a saccharine, almost PG-rated two-hour cinematic diversion about a killing machine with a heart of gold (is there any film theme more perfectly 2015-America than that?) who slowly, very slowly, starts to feel bad after shooting enough women and children – Gump notwithstanding, that was a hard one to see coming."


http://www.vox.com/2015/1/21/7641189/american-sniper-history

"Kyle repeatedly refers to Iraqis as "savages," and the film makes no effort to prove him wrong. Two out of three Iraqi children the film focuses on pick up weapons (though one puts it down before firing), and the third tortured by another Iraqi. When another soldier questions whether Kyle may have shot an innocent man, Kyle simply shouts him down. The issue never comes up again."

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/01/26/killing-ragheads-jesus-watching-american-sniper

"Killing Ragheads for Jesus: On Watching 'American Sniper'"
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 27, 2015 01:21PM)
[quote]From what I understand, Kyle himself was largely uninterested in politics.[/quote]
Seems to me, if you're going to kill people you should at least do some due diligence and find out [i]why[/i] you're killing them.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Jan 27, 2015 01:37PM)
When you're a soldier, you do what you're ordered to do. Hopefully your superiors will have figured out something you're good at, and assign you to that job. But in my experience, they often don't take the time and might assign you to something in which you have no interest. Regardless, in your capacity as a soldier, you have no right to question their orders.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Jan 27, 2015 01:50PM)
[youtube]9RCluHh7KTA[/youtube]

I have stayed away from this topic intentionally, but after surveying
the feelings of folks closer to this issue, over the past few weeks I
would like to express myself here.

@Landmark, it doesn't work that way in the field. It's need to know, period.
Arthur Stead's comments rule the day in the military. Chris was on the user end.

Every Man from Teams both former and current that I am on familiar terms
with disagrees with profiting from stories each Man can tell.

[b]"They used to go after our families for doing what he did!"[/b]

He committed to donating the proceeds from the book to the deceased family
members at the 3 minute 20 second mark. He did not follow through.

I have no plans to watch nor support the film, but I still consider
Chris Kyle a Brother whether I personally agree with him or not.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 27, 2015 02:22PM)
[quote]@Landmark, it doesn't work that way in the field. It's need to know, period. [/quote]
Oh, I'm quite aware of that. If I were hiring others to murder for my benefit, I wouldn't want the people who do the dirty work for me to think either.

It's due diligence as a human being to know why you are being sent to kill another human being. Ignorance, as they say, is no excuse.

[quote]Chris was on the user end. [/quote]
He put himself on the user end. There's still agency and personal responsibility available.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 27, 2015 02:46PM)
There are micro and macro levels. He was killing them, because doing so saved the lives of his fellow soldiers.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 27, 2015 02:55PM)
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Regardless, in your capacity as a soldier, you have no right to question their orders. [/quote]

It was made quite clear at the Nuremberg trials that it is not a defense to war crimes to state that one was "only following orders."

[quote]Superior orders, often known as the Nuremberg defense, lawful orders or by the German phrase "Befehl ist Befehl" ("orders are orders"), is a plea in a court of law that a person, whether a member of the armed forces or a civilian, not be held guilty for actions which were ordered by a superior officer or a public official.[1]

The superior orders plea is often regarded as the complement to command responsibility.

One of the most noted uses of this plea, or "defense", was by the accused in the 1945–46 Nuremberg Trials, such that it is also called the "Nuremberg defense". The Nuremberg Trials were a series of military tribunals, held by the main victorious Allied forces after World War II, most notable for the prosecution of prominent members of the political, military, and economic leadership of the defeated Nazi Germany. It was during these trials, under the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal which set them up, that the defense of superior orders was no longer considered enough to escape punishment; but merely enough to lessen punishment.[3][/quote]

Much more about this at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 27, 2015 03:44PM)
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
...
It was made quite clear at the Nuremberg trials that it is not a defense to war crimes to state that one was "only following orders."
... [/quote]

It doesn't appear that it was made all 'that' clear.

"Historically, the plea of superior orders has been used both before and after the Nuremberg Trials, with a notable lack of consistency in various rulings."

The London Charter of the International Military Tribunal specifically relates to 'unlawful' orders which is not always easily defined and certainly not related to the acts most military 'grunts' are ordered to perform in fighting a war.

For the act to be considered illegal, "the order must be of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal".

You can't 'decide' what you think is an unlawful order. An unlawful order would have to be something that goes against the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC) or the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 27, 2015 03:57PM)
I was a medic in the United States Army. My job was to conserve the fighting strength of US troops. When that commitment meant killing the enemy, that became my primary duty.

Soldier First!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 27, 2015 04:16PM)
If you can't decide what an unlawful order is, it makes no sense to say that you CAN decide if the order goes against the Laws of Armed Conflict. If you're not permitted to make that decision, the "I was only following orders" defense would be universally valid.

But it's not.

Recall the case of William Calley:

[quote]Calley assumed that his order to “kill the enemy” meant to kill everyone. In his personal statement, Calley stated that

[quote]I was ordered to go in there and destroy the enemy. That was my job that day. That was the mission I was given. I did not sit down and think in terms of men, women, and children. They were all classified as the same, and that’s the classification that we dealt with over there, just as the enemy. I felt then and I still do that I acted as I was directed, and I carried out the order that I was given and I do not feel wrong in doing so.[/quote]

After deliberating for 79 hours, the six-officer jury (five of whom had served in Vietnam) convicted him on March 29, 1971, of the premeditated murder of 22 Vietnamese civilians.[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Jan 27, 2015 04:27PM)
The point is that, even in this great country which is considered to be one of "the good guys", orders are given to kill, supposedly to protect other American lives. If you, as a soldier, don't follow those orders, you can be court-marshalled and sent to prison or dishonorably discharged. (Or, in days gone by, shot for treason).

So the blame, therefore, would lie with the Commander-in-Chief who ultimately gives the orders.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 27, 2015 04:41PM)
The more I read about Chris Kyle the more horrible a person he appears - a boastful, vain, unthinking killer. How he can be seen as any sort of hero staggers me.

His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. And if not true (some of his stories have been proven to be fabrications) it does not speak much to his character that he got kicks out of boasting of killing people. Any way you look at him, not one of the good guys.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 27, 2015 04:54PM)
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
The more I read about Chris Kyle the more horrible a person he appears - a boastful, vain, unthinking killer. How he can be seen as any sort of hero staggers me.

His [b]boasts[/b] of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, [b]murdering[/b] car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. And if not true ([b]some of his stories have been proven to be fabrications[/b]) it does not speak much to his character that [b]he got kicks out of boasting of killing people[/b]. Any way you look at him, not one of the good guys. [/quote]

Please cite reputable sources for these accusations.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 27, 2015 05:14PM)
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. And if not true (some of his stories have been proven to be fabrications) it does not speak much to his character that he got kicks out of boasting of killing people. Any way you look at him, not one of the good guys. [/quote]

Please cite reputable sources for these accusations. [/quote]
Brandon Webb good enough for you? Kyle told the stories to him, but also to several reporters. Not hard to find the articles on line if you look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Webb_(author)

"Brandon Tyler Webb (born 1974) is a former United States Navy SEAL and SEAL Sniper Head Instructor, with combat deployments to southwest Asia, including Iraq and Afghanistan, and an author. He served as the Navy SEAL Sniper Course Manager, where he developed new curricula and trained snipers, including Chris Kyle. He is the editor in chief of SOFREP and a media commentator on snipers and related Special Operations Forces military issues. Webb is the co-author of The 21st Century Sniper: A Complete Practical Guide and his memoir The Red Circle."

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs

"Webb, now the editor of SOFREP, a Web site covering special-operations forces, invited Kyle and another former SEAL to participate in a taped discussion about life as a special operator ... The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos."

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/did-special-forces-snipers-kill-americans-after-katrina/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/30/the-complicated-but-unveriable-legacy-of-chris-kyle-the-deadliest-sniper-in-american-history/
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 27, 2015 06:23PM)
Those facts sure get pesky sometimes.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 28, 2015 07:43AM)
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, balducci wrote:

Brandon Webb good enough for you? Kyle told the stories to him, but also to several reporters. Not hard to find the articles on line if you look.

[/quote]

I will research this.

Thanks.
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (Jan 28, 2015 02:06PM)
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
The more I read about Chris Kyle the more horrible a person he appears - a boastful, vain, unthinking killer. How he can be seen as any sort of hero staggers me.

His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. And if not true (some of his stories have been proven to be fabrications) it does not speak much to his character that he got kicks out of boasting of killing people. Any way you look at him, not one of the good guys. [/quote]

If he were doing anything illegal, he should have been prosecuted. If not, sounds like he was killing people who deserved it.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 28, 2015 02:20PM)
Really? If he actually shot and killed up to thirty alleged looters in New Orleans after Katrina (as he boasted of doing), whatever happened to due process of law? Is that not required if you feel the victims "deserved it?"
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 28, 2015 02:31PM)
If he shot and killed looters then he deserved to be prosecuted. If not, he was a liar and a blowhard. As I said, not one of the good guys.

How can we lionize a sniper, whose job is to shoot people in the back, or from cover and by stealth? I know they on occasion save lives, but it is hardly a noble calling. I would feel more pride in my son becoming a gigolo.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 28, 2015 02:36PM)
What's the difference between a sniper and an assassin?
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Jan 28, 2015 03:01PM)
Assassins kill for profit. Snipers are military personnel who are ordered to kill by their superiors.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Jan 28, 2015 03:11PM)
[quote]
On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

What's the difference between a sniper and an assassin?

[/quote]

Depends on which side of the rifle you are on.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 28, 2015 03:25PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Assassins kill for profit. Snipers are military personnel who are ordered to kill by their superiors. [/quote]

I guess Lee Harvey Oswald was a sniper, then. There is no evidence that he ever got paid to do it. If you recall, many early reports of the Kennedy assassination stated that the President had been shot by a sniper.

What about the serial killer known as the D.C. sniper? He wasn't paid for his actions. Nor was Charles Whitman- the infamous Texas Bell Tower Sniper.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Jan 28, 2015 03:49PM)
Having just finished the book American Sniper, I am rather surprised at how much that runs through this thread wasn't in it. I tried to read the book with an open mind, and was left with the opinion that Chris Kyle was doing what he felt (and was told) was his duty to his country and fellow citizens. He was not without misgivings, conscience or belief that he would one day have to answer for his actions.

I won't listen to third-chair-down stories, especially when there is a book that paints a different picture. Neither will I listen to armchair soldiers who imply there is something evil or cowardly about being a military sniper because I know better. I would liken it more to being a pro field goal kicker, just as lonely, just as stressful but much, much more dangerous. It is utterly shameful to me that such things have been written here. Was Truman a coward for his call? Everyone who worked on the Manhattan project? A guy from my home town, Paul Tibbets? President Obama for Bin Laden?

With all the news about innocent civilians being killed as collateral casualties of conflict , why would some choose to defame the very ones who are making clean, surgical strikes documented by witnesses against singular enemy targets?

I say "THANK YOU" to Chris Kyle and all those like him for their tremendous sacrifices 365/24/7!!!

BTW- Chris Kyle also wrote a book entitled "American Gun" which I am finding well-written and very interesting...
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2015 03:49PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Really? If he actually shot and killed up to thirty alleged looters in New Orleans after Katrina (as he boasted of doing), whatever happened to due process of law? Is that not required if you feel the victims "deserved it?" [/quote]

If the victims deserved to get killed, then one thing that wasn't going to provide justice was due process of law. That's not to suggest that the rule of law should be scrapped, or not followed; but it's certainly not always most reliable instrument of justice.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2015 03:54PM)
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. [/quote]

I wonder what percentage of our NVMS community agrees with this sentiment. I don't, personally, but I suspect I'm in the minority.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 28, 2015 04:02PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

I would feel more pride in my son becoming a gigolo. [/quote]

Hope instead that your son is never on a battlefield where his life depends on the overwatch on one of these "not one of the good guys".
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 28, 2015 04:10PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

I would feel more pride in my son becoming a gigolo. [/quote]

Hope instead that your son is never on a battlefield where his life depends on the overwatch on one of these "not one of the good guys". [/quote]
Don't worry, he never will be on a battlefield. In Ireland we are civilized enough not to try and impose our culture on the world, or to fight over anything as trivial as foreign policy or oil.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 28, 2015 04:27PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Really? If he actually shot and killed up to thirty alleged looters in New Orleans after Katrina (as he boasted of doing), whatever happened to due process of law? Is that not required if you feel the victims "deserved it?" [/quote]

If the victims deserved to get killed, then one thing that wasn't going to provide justice was due process of law. That's not to suggest that the rule of law should be scrapped, or not followed; but it's certainly not always most reliable instrument of justice. [/quote]

I fail to see any trace of "justice" in picking off alleged "looters" from the top of the Super Dome. Or why a looter would deserve the death penalty. Although I do agree that the story was probably a complete fabrication by Kyle. Which, as far as I'm concerns, casts serious doubt on may other stories he's told apart from his documented "kills" as a Navy SEAL.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 28, 2015 04:33PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. [/quote]

I wonder what percentage of our NVMS community agrees with this sentiment. I don't, personally, but I suspect I'm in the minority. [/quote]

I think the key words in Tony's posts are "if true."
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2015 04:39PM)
If true, I would still hold that Bundy was worse.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2015 04:41PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Really? If he actually shot and killed up to thirty alleged looters in New Orleans after Katrina (as he boasted of doing), whatever happened to due process of law? Is that not required if you feel the victims "deserved it?" [/quote]

If the victims deserved to get killed, then one thing that wasn't going to provide justice was due process of law. That's not to suggest that the rule of law should be scrapped, or not followed; but it's certainly not always most reliable instrument of justice. [/quote]

I fail to see any trace of "justice" in picking off alleged "looters" from the top of the Super Dome. Or why a looter would deserve the death penalty. Although I do agree that the story was probably a complete fabrication by Kyle. Which, as far as I'm concerns, casts serious doubt on may other stories he's told apart from his documented "kills" as a Navy SEAL. [/quote]


I'm not in favor of the death penalty for looters; I'm just saying that the rule of the is neither necessary nor sufficient for justice. We rely on it for other reasons.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 28, 2015 04:44PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

Don't worry, he never will be on a battlefield. In Ireland we are civilized enough not to try and impose our culture on the world, or to fight over anything as trivial as foreign policy or oil. [/quote]

Yeah, thanks for the weather reports during World War II. And, the condolences on Hitler's death.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2015 04:57PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
he never will be on a battlefield. In Ireland we are civilized enough not to try and impose our culture on the world, or to fight over anything as trivial as foreign policy or oil. [/quote]


And we don't do it over domestic policy, so I guess it all evens out!

Don't worry...we'll just pretend Irish Army troops in Syria weren't exchanging machine gun fire with the locals a couple of months ago.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Jan 28, 2015 05:15PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Assassins kill for profit. Snipers are military personnel who are ordered to kill by their superiors. [/quote]

I guess Lee Harvey Oswald was a sniper, then. There is no evidence that he ever got paid to do it. If you recall, many early reports of the Kennedy assassination stated that the President had been shot by a sniper.

What about the serial killer known as the D.C. sniper? He wasn't paid for his actions. Nor was Charles Whitman- the infamous Texas Bell Tower Sniper. [/quote]

Yep, the minute I posted that, the D.C. sniper came to mind. But I didn't feel like correcting myself. I was fairly certain somebody else would!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 28, 2015 05:16PM)
Lobo- Your statement about the Irish in Syria is misleading. The Irish Army personnel in Syria are there as part of a UN peacekeeping mission, during which they were fired upon by locals.

The Irish always supported and participated in UN peacekeeping efforts. Otherwise, their armed forces are purely defensive.
Message: Posted by: Ray Tupper. (Jan 28, 2015 05:31PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
he never will be on a battlefield. In Ireland we are civilized enough not to try and impose our culture on the world, or to fight over anything as trivial as foreign policy or oil. [/quote]

Don't worry...we'll just pretend Irish Army troops in Syria weren't exchanging machine gun fire with the locals a couple of months ago. [/quote]
After being asked by the UN.
As an EU and UN member, Ireland was most probably (can't be arsed to check) asked to provide ancillary support. It's what allies do.(Mostly)
They're not trying to impose their culture or etc, etc. As Tony said.
Then again, I could be wrong. I often am.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 28, 2015 05:32PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Assassins kill for profit. Snipers are military personnel who are ordered to kill by their superiors. [/quote]

I guess Lee Harvey Oswald was a sniper, then. There is no evidence that he ever got paid to do it. If you recall, many early reports of the Kennedy assassination stated that the President had been shot by a sniper.

What about the serial killer known as the D.C. sniper? He wasn't paid for his actions. Nor was Charles Whitman- the infamous Texas Bell Tower Sniper. [/quote]

Yep, the minute I posted that, the D.C. sniper came to mind. But I didn't feel like correcting myself. I was fairly certain somebody else would! [/quote]

You didn't need correcting. Lee Harvey Oswald was hardley a military person following orders from his superiors.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2015 05:55PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Lobo- Your statement about the Irish in Syria is misleading. The Irish Army personnel in Syria are there as part of a UN peacekeeping mission, during which they were fired upon by locals.

The Irish always supported and participated in UN peacekeeping efforts. Otherwise, their armed forces are purely defensive. [/quote]


Tony 's claim that he "will never be on the battlefield" because of Irish foreign policy, which is what I was responding to, was misleading. The Irish have an army, it engages in life and death engagement with foreign nationals, and as such, could certainly benefit from a good sniper on their side.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Jan 28, 2015 06:08PM)
[quote]
On Jan 28, 2015, rockwall wrote:

You didn't need correcting. Lee Harvey Oswald was hardley a military person following orders from his superiors.

[/quote]

Or was he? :)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2015 06:18PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On Jan 28, 2015, rockwall wrote:

You didn't need correcting. Lee Harvey Oswald was hardley a military person following orders from his superiors.

[/quote]

Or was he? :) [/quote]


:applause:
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 28, 2015 06:46PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Assassins kill for profit. Snipers are military personnel who are ordered to kill by their superiors. [/quote]

I guess Lee Harvey Oswald was a sniper, then. There is no evidence that he ever got paid to do it. If you recall, many early reports of the Kennedy assassination stated that the President had been shot by a sniper.

What about the serial killer known as the D.C. sniper? He wasn't paid for his actions. Nor was Charles Whitman- the infamous Texas Bell Tower Sniper. [/quote]

Yep, the minute I posted that, the D.C. sniper came to mind. But I didn't feel like correcting myself. I was fairly certain somebody else would! [/quote]

You didn't need correcting. Lee Harvey Oswald was hardley a military person following orders from his superiors. [/quote]

You miss the point, as is expected. A sniper is simply an shooter who fires from a hidden place. The dictionary is your friend:

2snipe
intransitive verb

: to shoot at someone from a hidden place

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sniper

Hence, Oswald was correctly referred to as a sniper.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 28, 2015 07:19PM)
You miss the point, as is also expected. Someone can be a sniper but not an assassin. Lee Harvey Oswald was also an assassin. The dictionary is your friend:

assassin

a person who kills someone (such as a famous or important person) usually for political reasons or for money

a person who assassinates someone

(The discussion of sniper and assassin started because of your insinuation that there is no difference when you said, "What's the difference between a sniper and an assassin?")
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 28, 2015 08:16PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Lobo- Your statement about the Irish in Syria is misleading. The Irish Army personnel in Syria are there as part of a UN peacekeeping mission, during which they were fired upon by locals.

The Irish always supported and participated in UN peacekeeping efforts. Otherwise, their armed forces are purely defensive. [/quote]


Tony 's claim that he "will never be on the battlefield" because of Irish foreign policy, which is what I was responding to, was misleading. The Irish have an army, it engages in life and death engagement with foreign nationals, and as such, could certainly benefit from a good sniper on their side. [/quote]
The Irish troops in Syria were part of an international (UN) peace-keeping effort. Not Irish foreign policy. They were not fighting under an Irish flag, but a UN flag, and they were not imposing any culture on any other culture.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 28, 2015 08:18PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

Don't worry, he never will be on a battlefield. In Ireland we are civilized enough not to try and impose our culture on the world, or to fight over anything as trivial as foreign policy or oil. [/quote]

Yeah, thanks for the weather reports during World War II. And, the condolences on Hitler's death. [/quote]
That was a shameful period in our history. We were newly independent, and there were strong political reasons why we did not join in the war. We were wrong. That said, many Irish men did sign up with the British army to fight the evils of Nazism.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2015 08:19PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Lobo- Your statement about the Irish in Syria is misleading. The Irish Army personnel in Syria are there as part of a UN peacekeeping mission, during which they were fired upon by locals.

The Irish always supported and participated in UN peacekeeping efforts. Otherwise, their armed forces are purely defensive. [/quote]


Tony 's claim that he "will never be on the battlefield" because of Irish foreign policy, which is what I was responding to, was misleading. The Irish have an army, it engages in life and death engagement with foreign nationals, and as such, could certainly benefit from a good sniper on their side. [/quote]
The Irish troops in Syria were part of an international (UN) peace-keeping effort. Not Irish foreign policy. They were not fighting under an Irish flag, but a UN flag, and they were not imposing any culture on any other culture. [/quote]

1) Choosing to participate in armed conflict as part of a U.N. peacekeeping mission is itself a foreign policy decision.

2) Notwithstanding that, your suggestion that the "civilized" nature of the Irish will keep him off the battlefield is clearly incorrect.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 28, 2015 08:21PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
We were wrong. [/quote]


Geez, Tony, what are ha, new around here? You're taking all the fun out of this! At any rate, kudos to you.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Jan 29, 2015 09:54PM)
Kyle was a great sniper. That's all he set out to be. Any value judgments about the goals of his deployment should be directed to his commanding officers and civilian leadership.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 30, 2015 01:29AM)
No.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 01:49AM)
Who should questions regarding his story of shooting "looters" from the roof of the Super Dome be directed to?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 30, 2015 03:44AM)
[quote]On Jan 29, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Kyle was a great sniper. That's all he set out to be. Any value judgments about the goals of his deployment should be directed to his commanding officers and civilian leadership. [/quote]
Ted Bundy set out to be a great serial killer. Are there no value judgements to be made?

Kyle boasted of shooting looters, of killing car-jackers, of punching out politicians (a lie he was caught out on). Either he was a habitual liar or a monster. Value judgements can and will be made.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 08:45AM)
My value judgment is that killing innocent people (a la Bundy) is "worse" than killing looters and carjackers.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 30, 2015 11:40AM)
He may well have been a liar. It doesn't appear that he actually shot looters from the roof of the superdome or killed car-jackers. If he did lie about those things, it could well have been caused by issues he had from his multiple tours. I really don't know. However, there's not a lot of dispute about what he accomplished while at war. What he might have lied about afterwards doesn't diminish what he did as a serviceman and doesn't stop him from being an American hero. (For me, at least.)
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 30, 2015 12:58PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
My value judgment is that killing innocent people (a la Bundy) is "worse" than killing looters and carjackers. [/quote]
My value judgement is that a life is a life. And looters are quite low on the scale of criminality.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 30, 2015 01:59PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

My value judgement is that a life is a life. [b]And looters are quite low on the scale of criminality[/b]. [/quote]

Umm, no, they are not.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 02:01PM)
I'd put 'em toward the middle, off the top of my head. And don't forget the carjackers.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 02:25PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

My value judgement is that a life is a life. [b]And looters are quite low on the scale of criminality[/b]. [/quote]

Umm, no, they are not. [/quote]

Yes they are.

Oops. Sorry, wrong thread. :eek:
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Jan 30, 2015 02:27PM)
Not looters, alleged looters. Even less defensible.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 02:32PM)
If we take his word that he shot them, we may as well take his word that they were looting.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 02:34PM)
Absolutely. Whatever happened to little things like the right to a fair trial and the presumption of innocence? At the very least there are major civil rights violations here. (If the event ever happened, which appears to be doubtful since Kyle apparently wasn't above playing fast and loose with the truth, as determined by a jury in the Ventura case.)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 02:48PM)
Whether they were looters or not doesn't depend on whether a jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that they were looters following a fair trial.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 30, 2015 02:48PM)
Tony you have forced your culture on the world and I will forever thank you for Guinness.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 30, 2015 02:49PM)
As for shooting looters and carjacking dudes I would not do it.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 03:13PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Whether they were looters or not doesn't depend on whether a jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that they were looters following a fair trial. [/quote]

The point is that whether they were looters or not does not give anyone the right to kill them indiscriminately.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 30, 2015 03:15PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Whether they were looters or not doesn't depend on whether a jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that they were looters following a fair trial. [/quote]

The point is that whether they were looters or not does not give anyone the right to kill them indiscriminately.[/quote]
One could argue that if he were killing only looters he was, in fact, discriminate.

(But I agree with your point.)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 03:18PM)
Firing a high-powered sniper rifle into a crowd pretty well insures that not only looters, but people standing behind them as well will be killed or put in mortal danger.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 30, 2015 03:27PM)
Certainly the sight of it would mentally scar an average person forever.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 03:27PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Whether they were looters or not doesn't depend on whether a jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that they were looters following a fair trial. [/quote]

The point is that whether they were looters or not does not give anyone the right to kill them indiscriminately. [/quote]

I don't think anyone is arguing that point.

I'm still comfortable with my position that even if that's what Kyle did, Bundy was worse.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 03:45PM)
I agree with you on that, Lobo. There is no comparison.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 30, 2015 05:06PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

Firing a high-powered sniper rifle into a crowd pretty well insures that not only looters, but people standing behind them as well will be killed or put in mortal danger. [/quote]

Who would be standing behind looters, other than their compatriots?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 30, 2015 05:12PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
The point is that whether they were looters or not does not give anyone the right to kill them indiscriminately. [/quote]

I don't think anyone is arguing that point.

I'm still comfortable with my position that even if that's what Kyle did, Bundy was worse. [/quote]
The reason I brought up Bundy is that Bundy claimed to have killed thirty, but probably killed more. Kyle claimed to have killed 32 in civilian life, and definitely killed a lot more, counting his confirmed army killings. So their numbers are comparable. I too think Bundy was worse - but if Kyle did kill 32 (I don't for a moment believe he did) then he is on the Bundy team at least. That was my point.
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Jan 30, 2015 05:21PM)
I wonder how many of us would have 'looted' had we been in New Orleans (post Katrina), newly homeless, perhaps isolated on an urban island, and having no food or fresh water??? And instead of being rescued, looked up to see some guy shooting at us from a rooftop??? Lynn
Message: Posted by: Devious (Jan 30, 2015 05:24PM)
I was asked about THE SEAL BAR. It's strictly a San Diego thing.
There is no actual SEAL Bar. The joint is on Coronado Island, the
training ground for candidates. It was founded by a retired SEAL
http://www.mcpspub.com/

This is also the place where Kyle ran into Ventura. The fact that
they had words at MC P's is NOT in dispute.

IF you know the particulars of The Brotherhood, you may
knock on the door here, [url=http://www.sealvet.com/index.html]Veteran Seal Network[/url]

[img]http://www.mcpspub.com/images/nsvn.jpg[/img]
[img]http://mcpspub.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/CAPBlue.jpg[/img]

[img]http://themellowjihadi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/McPs.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 05:28PM)
Yes. I think there's a difference between indiscriminate looting and scavenging for essentials in a destroyed neighborhood. Is the guy running out of the food mart with bottles of milk and baby formula someone who deserves to be shot?
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 30, 2015 06:02PM)
Scavenging for essentials is not looting.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 30, 2015 06:25PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Scavenging for essentials is not looting.[/quote]
Can you make the determination about for what they're scavenging from the top of the Superdome?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 30, 2015 06:31PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Scavenging for essentials is not looting.[/quote]
Can you make the determination about for what they're scavenging from the top of the Superdome? [/quote]
You can't. Which is why you don't do it. Or boast about it, unless you are trying to impress right-wing rednecks.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 30, 2015 06:42PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Scavenging for essentials is not looting.[/quote]
Can you make the determination about for what they're scavenging from the top of the Superdome? [/quote]
[b][i]You[/i][/b] can't. Which is why [/b][/i]you[/i][/b] don't do it. Or boast about it, unless you are trying to impress right-wing rednecks.[/quote]
Exactly.

Which is why [b][i]I[/i][/b] don't do it.

(Well, that and the fact that I'm (likely) a lousy shot.)
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 30, 2015 06:42PM)
Tony wrote;

[quote]I too think Bundy was worse ...[/quote]

Aw Tony, Tony, you're going to concede the Bundy point? Now I'm going to have to chime in...

Arguably (and who am I not to?) killing under government auspices and policy is worse than one lone nut.
And movies are not made about the heroism of Ted Bundy, thus inspiring other would-be Bundys.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 06:55PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Scavenging for essentials is not looting.[/quote]
Can you make the determination about for what they're scavenging from the top of the Superdome? [/quote]

That was exactly my point. You can't. And neither could Kyle if, in fact, he did what he bragged about doing.

And maybe he did. It wouldn't be the first time that a loud-mouthed braggart was actually telling the truth.

I don't know if many of you outside of Washington are that familiar with the notorious Green River killer who terrorized the Pacific Highway and Green River areas south of Seattle in the late 80's and early 90's.

There was a guy we used to call "Crazy Gary" who hung out at the Midway Tavern, a popular local bar in the area. A lot of my friends as well as Denise still remember about how he'd joke and brag that he was the killer that the police couldn't find. Everyone figured he was just nuts and would laugh at him.

Until Gary Ridgeway was finally captured, no one realized he was really telling the truth! He WAS the Green River Killer. Many of them still get the chills when they recall that they actually knew the guy and that he wasn't kidding.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 30, 2015 07:17PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Scavenging for essentials is not looting.[/quote]
Can you make the determination about for what they're scavenging from the top of the Superdome?[/quote]
That was exactly my point. You can't.[/quote]
Hence, the rhetorical question.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 07:24PM)
I mean, even if you saw a guy running down the street with a big screen TV, how could you be sure that he wasn't rescuing one of his own possessions?

I like to answer rhetorical questions!

"What is rhetoric?"

"Is that a rhetorical question?" :eek:
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 30, 2015 07:30PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I mean, even if you saw a guy running down the street with a big screen TV, how could you be sure that he wasn't rescuing one of his own possessions?

I like to answer rhetorical questions!

"What is rhetoric?"

"Is that a rhetorical question?" :eek: [/quote]
If I weren't clear, I apologize. Mea culpa.

Let's try this: I agree with you. In spades.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 07:49PM)
I know that, Bill. I'm just screwing around with the rhetorical question bit.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 30, 2015 08:01PM)
I'm surprised at how much discussion about looters getting a fair trial first but everyone is ready to convict Chris Kyle on something he may or may not have said. Does anyone here know for a fact that Kyle made those claims? Or are they just believing what they've heard from someone else who could just as well be the liar here?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 08:06PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Scavenging for essentials is not looting.[/quote]
Can you make the determination about for what they're scavenging from the top of the Superdome? [/quote]

You can probably make a good educated guess about the guys carrying out the flatscreen TVs.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 08:07PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, landmark wrote:
Tony wrote;

[quote]I too think Bundy was worse ...[/quote]

Aw Tony, Tony, you're going to concede the Bundy point? Now I'm going to have to chime in...

Arguably (and who am I not to?) killing under government auspices and policy is worse than one lone nut.
And movies are not made about the heroism of Ted Bundy, thus inspiring other would-be Bundys. [/quote]


I wasn't even considering the military killing; just the looters and carjackers.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 08:25PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, rockwall wrote:
I'm surprised at how much discussion about looters getting a fair trial first but everyone is ready to convict Chris Kyle on something he may or may not have said. Does anyone here know for a fact that Kyle made those claims? Or are they just believing what they've heard from someone else who could just as well be the liar here? [/quote]

Kyle's claim of shooting looters and car jackers have been well documented as shown by previous links posted in this thread. And it is a matter of record that his story about beating up Jesse Ventura in a bar was found to be false and libelous by a jury who awarded Ventura substantial damages.

Personally, I think Kyle made the statements but that none of them were likely true.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 30, 2015 08:41PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
There was a guy we used to call "Crazy Gary" who hung out at the Midway Tavern, a popular local bar in the area. A lot of my friends as well as Denise still remember about how he'd joke and brag that he was the killer that the police couldn't find. Everyone figured he was just nuts and would laugh at him.

Until Gary Ridgeway was finally captured, no one realized he was really telling the truth! He WAS the Green River Killer. Many of them still get the chills when they recall that they actually knew the guy and that he wasn't kidding. [/quote]
That's very creepy. Ed Gein (Psycho inspiration) made similar boasts, which turned out to be true.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 30, 2015 08:48PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Scavenging for essentials is not looting.[/quote]
Can you make the determination about for what they're scavenging from the top of the Superdome?[/quote]
You can probably make a good educated guess about the guys carrying out the flatscreen TVs.[/quote]
How high a probability is sufficient to justify murder? (I'm sorry: killing?)

50%?

70%?

80%?

Personally, I'm not sure.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 08:51PM)
I think "murder" is more accurate, and I don't think any figure (including 100%; sorry for the redundancy) is high enough to justify it.

But I still think that it's "worse" to kill innocent people than looters and carjackers.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 30, 2015 08:54PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, rockwall wrote:
I'm surprised at how much discussion about looters getting a fair trial first but everyone is ready to convict Chris Kyle on something he may or may not have said. Does anyone here know for a fact that Kyle made those claims? Or are they just believing what they've heard from someone else who could just as well be the liar here? [/quote]

Kyle's claim of shooting looters and car jackers have been well documented as shown by previous links posted in this thread. And it is a matter of record that his story about beating up Jesse Ventura in a bar was found to be false and libelous by a jury who awarded Ventura substantial damages.

Personally, I think Kyle made the statements but that none of them were likely true. [/quote]

What has been well documented is what 'other' people claim that Chris Kyle said.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 30, 2015 09:05PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, rockwall wrote:
I'm surprised at how much discussion about looters getting a fair trial first but everyone is ready to convict Chris Kyle on something he may or may not have said. Does anyone here know for a fact that Kyle made those claims? Or are they just believing what they've heard from someone else who could just as well be the liar here? [/quote]

Kyle's claim of shooting looters and car jackers have been well documented as shown by previous links posted in this thread. And it is a matter of record that his story about beating up Jesse Ventura in a bar was found to be false and libelous by a jury who awarded Ventura substantial damages.

Personally, I think Kyle made the statements but that none of them were likely true. [/quote]

What has been well documented is what 'other' people claim that Chris Kyle said. [/quote]
No - what has been documented is what Kyle said to other people. There is a difference.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 30, 2015 09:22PM)
What is 'documented' about the superdome at least, is a story from a guy about Chris Kyle telling a story during a heavy night of drinking about shooting people from the Superdome. A story told, by the way, AFTER Chris Kyle had been killed. (Tell me again how well heresay holds up in court?) You guys act like you know for a fact that Chris really told this story exactly as it was related a year after the fact. You also act as though the telling of this story is as bad as the actual act would have been itself.

From the New Yorker article.

"Perhaps this story, like the one about the gas station, contains a kernel of truth. Both narratives, however, portray Kyle as if he really were the Punisher, dispensing justice by his own rules. It was possible to see these stories as evidence of vainglory; it was also possible to see them as attempts by a struggling man to maintain an invincible persona. Kilbane, having read Kyle’s book, knew about his drinking habits and his battles with combat stress. Watching Kyle put down pint glass after pint glass of whiskey-on-the-rocks, he said, “It made me think there were still demons bouncing around in there.”"

I'm not saying he didn't tell the story, I'm saying I don't know for sure. And also, even if he did, I'm not going to judge him over it because I don't know what he was going through. Thankfully, I didn't have to serve 4 tours in Iraq.

THIS is something that I DO know about Chris Kyle:

"He received two Silver Star Medals, five Bronze Star Medals, one Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal, and two Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals.[7] Iraqi insurgents dubbed him the "Devil of Ramadi" and placed a series of ever increasing bounties on his head, purported to have eventually reached the low six figures."

So, go ahead and judge him over something you know next to nothing about. I'll pass.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 09:24PM)
You conveniently overlook the fact that the story comes from a fellow SEAL as well as other sources.

He had lots of medals, too.

Are you calling him a liar?

And you also have forgotten that a jury assessed damages against him for his proven false story about Jesse Ventura.

Are they liars, too?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 09:30PM)
The story about Jesse Ventura came from a fellow SEAL, too.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 09:38PM)
It came directly from Kyle's book.

And it was proven false and defamatory.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 30, 2015 09:45PM)
Well, I don't know if it was "proven" false. The jurors thought it was more likely than not to be false, which can be a hair more than 50%. But at any rate, that's kind of my point. We know that either Kyle or Ventura lied, so being a SEAL doesn't necessarily translate to credibility.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 30, 2015 10:13PM)
That was my point. The fact that Kyle was a SEAL and earned a lot of medals doesn't mean he didn't tell some whoppers as well.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 31, 2015 11:39AM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
You conveniently overlook the fact that the story comes from a fellow SEAL as well as other sources.

He had lots of medals, too.

Are you calling him a liar?

And you also have forgotten that a jury assessed damages against him for his proven false story about Jesse Ventura.

Are they liars, too? [/quote]

You completely miss my point. (As expected)

I'm not calling ANYONE a liar. (Well, not any of those guys, anyway.)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 31, 2015 12:12PM)
I wouldn't call any of them a liar if they were in the room. Or I guess within a thousand yards if they had their rifle.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 31, 2015 12:28PM)
For the haters, something to boo-hoo about...

[url=http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/01/30/texas-governor-declares-chris-kyle-day/]February 2nd Proclaimed Chris Kyle Day in Texas.[/url]
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 31, 2015 12:46PM)
And I thought they were saving the 2nd for Ted Bundy Day. Crowded calendar.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 31, 2015 01:01PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:

For the haters, something to boo-hoo about...

[url=http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/01/30/texas-governor-declares-chris-kyle-day/]February 2nd Proclaimed Chris Kyle Day in Texas.[/url] [/quote]
So Texas chooses to celebrate the day Chris Kyle was shot / killed / murdered? Will his killer, Eddie Ray Routh, lead the parade?

:confused:

Of course, Dallas celebrated the 50th anniversary of the assassination of JFK ... so maybe this is a Texas thing?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 31, 2015 01:18PM)
Was that an attempt at humor?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 31, 2015 01:37PM)
It was an attempt at truth.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 31, 2015 01:47PM)
Why would you celebrate the day someone was murdered? Pretty sick.

Usually people are honored by celebrating their birthdays.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 31, 2015 01:56PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Why would you celebrate the day someone was murdered? Pretty sick.

Usually people are honored by celebrating their birthdays. [/quote]
Precisely. Contrary to what Kabbalah wrote, I imagine any real "haters" would be pleased as punch that Texas selected this day instead of Kyle's birthday (April 8). The optics of selecting his day of death on which to celebrate are certainly bad, if one looks at it objectively.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 31, 2015 02:39PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Why would you celebrate the day someone was murdered? Pretty sick.

Usually people are honored by celebrating their birthdays. [/quote]

Such as Easter.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 31, 2015 02:42PM)
When is the birthday?

My guess is that it is a pragmatic decision as they picked the day that happened next on the calendar.

That is a guess with zero research.I could be and probably am way wrong.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 31, 2015 02:45PM)
Kyle's birthday is April 8 (as mentioned above).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 31, 2015 02:53PM)
So there ya go. Pragmatic decision plain and simple. Make it happen while the buzz is high.

Still a pretty nasty thing to say about his killer leading the parade. But I have come to expect such things.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 31, 2015 03:13PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Why would you celebrate the day someone was murdered? Pretty sick.

Usually people are honored by celebrating their birthdays. [/quote]

Such as Easter. [/quote]

C'mon, Danny. You need to get a Sunday school refresher. Easter is the day of the resurrection, not the crucifixion.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Jan 31, 2015 03:27PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 28, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Assassins kill for profit. Snipers are military personnel who are ordered to kill by their superiors. [/quote]

I guess Lee Harvey Oswald was a sniper, then. There is no evidence that he ever got paid to do it. If you recall, many early reports of the Kennedy assassination stated that the President had been shot by a sniper.

What about the serial killer known as the D.C. sniper? He wasn't paid for his actions. Nor was Charles Whitman- the infamous Texas Bell Tower Sniper. [/quote]
They werent snipers. They were murderers.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jan 31, 2015 03:30PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Why would you celebrate the day someone was murdered? Pretty sick.

Usually people are honored by celebrating their birthdays. [/quote]

Such as Easter. [/quote]

C'mon, Danny. You need to get a Sunday school refresher. Easter is the day of the resurrection, not the crucifixion. [/quote]

Good Friday...better?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 31, 2015 04:26PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:

So there ya go. Pragmatic decision plain and simple. Make it happen while the buzz is high.
[/quote]
I guess you missed the memo, but Kyle was murdered in 2013. So they might have celebrated his life with a day on Kyle's birthday in 2013 or 2014. If it was a pragmatic decision, it was only pragmatic in the sense that a newly elected Governor of Texas wanted to jump on the movie bandwagon. If he really wanted to honour Chris Kyle in an appropriate way, Gov. Abbott should have waited two more months. Made the announcement now by all means, but set the day of celebration on April 8.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jan 31, 2015 04:29PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:

Still a pretty nasty thing to say about his killer leading the parade. But I have come to expect such things. [/quote]
You might have a point, except my comment was obviously indicating how some might view setting the day of celebration on the day of Kyle's murder as being particularly insensitive and inappropriate. I'm sorry you are unable to see that.

Never mind, one day I will follow up on my promise to buy you a gift subscription to an online reading comprehension improvement site.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 31, 2015 04:55PM)
You COULD follow up by just not being such a nit all the time but everyone knows that wrong happen either.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 31, 2015 06:13PM)
I guess I meant that won't happen.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Jan 31, 2015 06:21PM)
[img]https://theartoftoadkissing.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/kettlecallingpotblack.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Jan 31, 2015 06:21PM)
Hypothetically, if a man goes to war and has to kill, then returns to civilian life and becomes a serial killer, his wartime kills are not added to his "body count".
Just thought I'd clear that up.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Jan 31, 2015 07:27PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Hypothetically, if a man goes to war and has to kill, then returns to civilian life and becomes a serial killer, his wartime kills are not added to his "body count".
Just thought I'd clear that up. [/quote]
There is evidence that the vast majority of soldiers shoot above the heads of the enemy during a battle, and only a small percentage shoot to kill (Dave Grossman, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in war and Society. New York: Back Bay Books, 1996).

If this is true, it indicates that most of us are not natural killers, so guys like Kyle are different from us. As are guys like Bundy. Any man that can kill a minimum of 155 people and be at peace with himself is probably damaged in ways the sane among us cannot even imagine.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jan 31, 2015 08:10PM)
Tony- You've reminded me of something my grandfather told me about one of his experiences in the first world was. He was a private in the German army and was involved in trench warfare. He said that they always shot above the heads of the French during the day and the French did the same. I asked him why. He explained that many men from both sides snuck out of the trenches at night to play cards with each other and they didn't want to accidentally shoot someone who owed them money.

He added that, at least in the engagement he was involved in, no one was really interested in killing anyone anyway.

And that reminded me of the famous "Christmas truce of 1914" when men from both sides took a break from fighting to celebrate Christmas together.

http://www.history.com/topics/christmas/history-of-christmas/videos/the-christmas-truce
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Jan 31, 2015 08:56PM)
Well, that answers that lifelong mystery about why so few were killed in WW1 and WW2! :rotf:
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Jan 31, 2015 09:13PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Well, that answers that lifelong mystery about why so few were killed in WW1 and WW2! :rotf: [/quote]
Yes. They really took it easy on each other at Gettysburg too.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Jan 31, 2015 10:37PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Well, that answers that lifelong mystery about why so few were killed in WW1 and WW2! :rotf: [/quote]

I don't know about WWII, but it is well documented that the established front lines did shoot to miss, and the favour was returned. Documents from both sides show generals furious over this clever bit of cooperation.

There were plenty of other occasions for bloodbath, mainly in open battle, where no cooperative strategy was possible.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Jan 31, 2015 11:19PM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Any man that can kill a minimum of 155 people and be at peace with himself is probably damaged in ways the sane among us cannot even imagine. [/quote]

Context, Tony, context. Was he killing people or was he saving people by killing killers? You may disagree with the viewpoint or characterization, but at least acknowledge that there is a possible "sane" motivation for what Kyle did, one that might have brought him some peace that he did the right thing. The world is not black and white, my friend.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 31, 2015 11:34PM)
One could argue that a man with the ability to save others who chooses not to would be damaged in some way.

Soldiers are soldiers. Think of the numbers of people killed in WWII. Then divide by the number of those in the infantry and you get to some scary numbers of people killed per soldier even if they aimed over anyones head.

Don't try to put a peace time model on war. It does not work. They're asked to do a job that can not be comprehended by most. To throw about terms like sanity and sit back to judge them with some sort of moral superiority is not sane in my view. Heck the only reason you even can sit in such judgment is in one way or another due to the soldiers commitment.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 31, 2015 11:42PM)
It is their commitment that enables wars. If all soldiers refused to fight there would be no war.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Jan 31, 2015 11:52PM)
This is what's happened now in South Africa, where I was born. The army (which during the apartheid years was all white) is now comprised mostly of blacks. And they decided to form a union. So if they don't feel like obeying a certain command (including going to war), they simply go on strike.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 1, 2015 01:29AM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Well, that answers that lifelong mystery about why so few were killed in WW1 and WW2! :rotf: [/quote]

Figures you would mock the story my grandfather told me.

I suppose you're telling me it's not true and that the Christmas truce never happened.

OF COURSE hundreds of thousands were killed in the two wars. Who said there weren't?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 1, 2015 01:30AM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, landmark wrote:
It is their commitment that enables wars. If all soldiers refused to fight there would be no war. [/quote]

Reminds me of the old question, "What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

And it's still a good question.

Phil Ochs had a good answer:

[youtube]gv1KEF8Uw2k[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 01:34AM)
War is an abomination.

One problem. It is still at times necessary. Again the only reason we can sit and pontificate about it in the first place is the soldier.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 07:02AM)
I am not a pacifist. I agree that sometimes war is necessary--though far, far less necessary than the history of the world would indicate.

But that still doesn't mean that soldiers get to hang up their morals, intelligence, humanity, and conscience at the door. What I am objecting to, is this celebration of the amoral robot action figure. Sorry, but an amoral robot can [i]never[/i] be a hero.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 08:32AM)
To you.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 08:43AM)
Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 08:45AM)
[quote]On Jan 31, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Tony- You've reminded me of something my grandfather told me about one of his experiences in the first world was. He was a private in the German army and was involved in trench warfare. He said that they always shot above the heads of the French during the day and the French did the same. I asked him why. He explained that many men from both sides snuck out of the trenches at night to play cards with each other and they didn't want to accidentally shoot someone who owed them money.

He added that, at least in the engagement he was involved in, no one was really interested in killing anyone anyway.
http://www.history.com/topics/christmas/history-of-christmas/videos/the-christmas-truce [/quote]
That is a wonderful story, and an affirmation of the basic humanity of most of those involved in even the most brutal of conflicts. Delighted you shared it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 09:54AM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark. [/quote]


Yea that makes two of you. Seems a whole bunch of people seem to disagree. Probably conservatively tens of thousands to one.

But you guys keep pretending your views are mainstream in some way.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 09:57AM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark. [/quote]


Yea that makes two of you. Seems a whole bunch of people seem to disagree. Probably conservatively tens of thousands to one.

But you guys keep pretending your views are mainstream in some way. [/quote]

They don't claim that they are mainstream. They claim to be thoughtful and have morally defensible views. And I believe they do.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 10:09AM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark. [/quote]


Yea that makes two of you. Seems a whole bunch of people seem to disagree. Probably conservatively tens of thousands to one.

But you guys keep pretending your views are mainstream in some way. [/quote]

If they were mainstream locally, I wouldn't have to keep speaking up now, would I?

But from what I can see, Christianity has done pretty well.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 10:16AM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark. [/quote]


Yea that makes two of you. Seems a whole bunch of people seem to disagree. Probably conservatively tens of thousands to one.

But you guys keep pretending your views are mainstream in some way. [/quote]

They don't claim that they are mainstream. They claim to be thoughtful and have morally defensible views. And I believe they do. [/quote]


People who think he is a hero also have morally defensible views. Only difference is without guys like Chris there would be no room for the other views.

The morally defensible views only have the ability to exist because soldiers and others have the courage to act. Then they have to put up with being called murderer because people think they are taking the moral high ground.

I wish there was a way that each could live the consequences of their own personal viewpoint. You guys could live in a world where the soldier does exist and it not affect anyone but you. Too bad this is a fantasy. You guys get the benefit of holding them in contempt and live under the very freedoms thesoldier provides. How lucky for you.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Feb 1, 2015 12:52PM)
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see where Chris Kyle did anything wrong by any moral standard. Let's back out the story about New Orleans, which most of us don't believe, and the carjacking episode - which if true, still falls in his favor, both legally and morally. Let's just focus on his military service. Did he deliberately kill any non-combatants? If not, he stands on firm moral ground, IMO, and I heartully thank him for his service and everything he did.
Message: Posted by: critter (Feb 1, 2015 01:01PM)
I am of the opinion that a purely self-serving lie is a dishonorable act. Morality is a more subjective measure. Ethics, there's probably some general consensus on a few universally unethical behaviors...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 01:07PM)
I agree with critter about a lie.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 1, 2015 01:54PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, critter wrote:
I am of the opinion that a purely self-serving lie is a dishonorable act. Morality is a more subjective measure. Ethics, there's probably some general consensus on a few universally unethical behaviors... [/quote]

As magicians, most of our lies are pretty self-serving.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Feb 1, 2015 02:09PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, critter wrote:
I am of the opinion that a purely self-serving lie is a dishonorable act. Morality is a more subjective measure. Ethics, there's probably some general consensus on a few universally unethical behaviors...[/quote]

As magicians, most of our lies are pretty self-serving.[/quote]
Pretty . . . but not purely.

Another . . . ahem . . . bullet dodged.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 02:49PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see where Chris Kyle did anything wrong by any moral standard. Let's back out the story about New Orleans, which most of us don't believe, and the carjacking episode - which if true, still falls in his favor, both legally and morally. Let's just focus on his military service. Did he deliberately kill any non-combatants? If not, he stands on firm moral ground, IMO, and I heartully thank him for his service and everything he did. [/quote]
How about this for wrong by any moral standard - he either murdered civilians (unlikely) or was a complete liar. That level of lying is wrong by most moral standards.

Carjacking story falls in his favour, both legally and morally? In what universe? Legally, if true, he executed two people without any legal process. No trial, no conviction. That is legally indefensibly. And as for morally, he is on even shakier ground. Is this the law of the Hollywood old west, where the man with the quickest draw is king? That is a morally warped world view.

This afternoon I read the opening chapters of American Sniper. Any of you who haven't should. You get a real picture of the man from his own words, and it is not a nice picture. He was a deeply biased and racist man, who had a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'. Two days ago I suspected the guy was a monster. Now I am convinced.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 1, 2015 02:49PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
It is their commitment that enables wars. If all soldiers refused to fight there would be no war. [/quote]

and if everyone stopped using drugs there would be no market for them and no drug cartels or no more potheads, and if people stopped stealing there would be no thieves and if everyone stopped working everyone would starve to death because we would have no food or clothes or shelter from the elements because no one would be paying taxes for the government to give hand outs and if their were no soldiers that gave their lives for people like you you would not be able to say what you want. What point are you trying to make here? If there was no sun it would be cold.

Just to finish it is their commitment that makes you a free man ina free country. Show some respect and be somewhat grateful and stop living in a fantasy world. As I said in another post. Adam and Eve screwed up what you want a long time ago. :)
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 1, 2015 03:01PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see where Chris Kyle did anything wrong by any moral standard. Let's back out the story about New Orleans, which most of us don't believe, and the carjacking episode - which if true, still falls in his favor, both legally and morally. Let's just focus on his military service. Did he deliberately kill any non-combatants? If not, he stands on firm moral ground, IMO, and I heartully thank him for his service and everything he did. [/quote]
How about this for wrong by any moral standard - he either murdered civilians (unlikely) or was a complete liar. That level of lying is wrong by most moral standards.

Carjacking story falls in his favour, both legally and morally? In what universe? Legally, if true, he executed two people without any legal process. No trial, no conviction. That is legally indefensibly. And as for morally, he is on even shakier ground. Is this the law of the Hollywood old west, where the man with the quickest draw is king? That is a morally warped world view.

This afternoon I read the opening chapters of American Sniper. Any of you who haven't should. You get a real picture of the man from his own words, and it is not a nice picture. He was a deeply biased and racist man, who had a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'. Two days ago I suspected the guy was a monster. Now I am convinced. [/quote]



So I gather that you feel that it would have been better if he had not killed anyone? Or just some? Or just the ones you think are bad? What exactly are you saying? Do you also feel we don't need soldiers? That soldiers are bad and are the cause of wars? When a terrorist comes knocking on your door try handing him a flower and say "welcome"...see how that works. Maybe they will behead you...but who needs soldiers? You and landmark can talk to the enemy. Send them a text and say that you understand how they feel. Tell them you hate our soldiers because they kill people who are trying to kill us. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Feb 1, 2015 03:03PM)
Something making the interweb rounds ...

https://twitter.com/billyeichner/status/560591815313981440

I am pretty sure it is sarcasm.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 1, 2015 03:10PM)
Asking you people out there that feel Chris is a bad guy. Would you pull the trigger on the executioners who beheaded all of those people? Or do you feel it is wrong?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 1, 2015 03:12PM)
Yes I would. But I wouldn't shoot people from the top of the Superdome. I wouldn't even make up lies about it.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Feb 1, 2015 03:15PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'. Two days ago I suspected the guy was a monster. Now I am convinced. [/quote]

If it would give me great pleasure to shoot and kill the ISIS savages that are beheading people, would that make me a xenophobe and a monster?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 03:17PM)
Why is it those who seem to think criminals need understanding are unwilling to understand this man? Where is all that tolerance and understanding we give to enemies?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Feb 1, 2015 03:22PM)
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%E2%80%99s_war_was_not_my_war/
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 1, 2015 03:25PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Yes I would. But I wouldn't shoot people from the top of the Superdome. I wouldn't even make up lies about it. [/quote]

Agreed. But you just might shoot someone from the top of the Superdome if that someone were one of those that beheaded people. :) Just busting you here Bob. I understand and I feel the same way you do on this.

Chris definitely had issues. I have no idea of his private hell. But I have experienced things that make one say and do things that we regret upon reflection.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 03:27PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%E2%80%99s_war_was_not_my_war/ [/quote]

Yep a great non biased source there.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Feb 1, 2015 03:42PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%E2%80%99s_war_was_not_my_war/ [/quote]

Yep a great non biased source there. [/quote]
"Garett Reppenhagen served as a Cavalry Scout Sniper with the 1st Infantry Division in the US Army and deployed on a peacekeeping mission in Kosovo and a combat tour in the Diyala Province, Iraq in 2004. Garett works as a Regional Director for Vet Voice Foundation and is a veterans advocate"

I guess he IS pro-U.S., pro-military, and pro-veterans, so you are correct that he is biased.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 03:43PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%E2%80%99s_war_was_not_my_war/ [/quote]

Yep a great non biased source there. [/quote]

yeah, better to stick to neutral sources like Clint Eastwood.
Message: Posted by: critter (Feb 1, 2015 04:02PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, critter wrote:
I am of the opinion that a purely self-serving lie is a dishonorable act. Morality is a more subjective measure. Ethics, there's probably some general consensus on a few universally unethical behaviors... [/quote]

As magicians, most of our lies are pretty self-serving. [/quote]

Maybe the way Criss Angel does it ;)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 04:08PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%E2%80%99s_war_was_not_my_war/ [/quote]

Yep a great non biased source there. [/quote]

yeah, better to stick to neutral sources like Clint Eastwood. [/quote]

Gee I would love for you to show me where I took a position either way on Clint Eastwood or the moviev or the accuracy of any of it.

Come on John put up or shut up.

And Salon is biased.

Eastwood has an obvious agenda. Selling movie tickets. Fairly easy to know that right?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 04:15PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'. Two days ago I suspected the guy was a monster. Now I am convinced. [/quote]

If it would give me great pleasure to shoot and kill the ISIS savages that are beheading people, would that make me a xenophobe and a monster? [/quote]
Not a xenophobe necessarily, but a monster certainly. If you killed out of a sense of duty, and to save lives, I can get that. But if it gave you great pleasure, that would indicate a serious character flaw in you.

As I said, read his book. His own words condemn him.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 04:21PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, acesover wrote:
So I gather that you feel that it would have been better if he had not killed anyone? Or just some? Or just the ones you think are bad? What exactly are you saying? Do you also feel we don't need soldiers? That soldiers are bad and are the cause of wars? When a terrorist comes knocking on your door try handing him a flower and say "welcome"...see how that works. Maybe they will behead you...but who needs soldiers? You and landmark can talk to the enemy. Send them a text and say that you understand how they feel. Tell them you hate our soldiers because they kill people who are trying to kill us. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? [/quote]
Having lived in a country with a major terrorism problem, as opposed to the odd incident you have in the USA, I feel I am quite qualified to comment on this. For thirty years the terrorists and the army/police fought, and thousands were killed, most innocent non-combatants. Probably like several of Kyle's victims if we were to analyze each kill. Levels of hatred and bigotry were so high here Kyle would have fitted right in.

Then we changed our approach. Instead of snipping at each other, and bombing each other, and killing women and children, we sat down and talked. We stopped seeking retribution. And within about three years we had peace, prosperity, old enemies working side by side in friendship. What thirty years of violence and bloodshed couldn't achieve, three years of dialog achieved.

Soldiers and terrorists talking, and trying to understand one another, works. That's fact, not speculation.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 04:53PM)
Get on over to the Middle East and have a sit-down with some ISIS folks. Show us how it's done; the Western world will be in your debt.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 04:56PM)
Sounds like he has a handle on exactly what needs to be done.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 05:03PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%E2%80%99s_war_was_not_my_war/ [/quote]

Yep a great non biased source there. [/quote]

yeah, better to stick to neutral sources like Clint Eastwood. [/quote]

Gee I would love for you to show me where I took a position either way on Clint Eastwood or the moviev or the accuracy of any of it.

Come on John put up or shut up.

And Salon is biased.

Eastwood has an obvious agenda. Selling movie tickets. Fairly easy to know that right? [/quote]

Send me a PM and I'll explain.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 05:10PM)
Naw you make the accusation in public put up or shut up in public.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 05:24PM)
Danny, name the accusation and I will address it. Promise. But you've never followed through before, and I have no doubt you'll begin your adolescent roostering once again.

But like every else on the forum, I'm rather bored of your chasing me, and your infantile attempts to play gotcha.

If you have a serious question, I'll answer it in a PM.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 05:28PM)
Lobo, Danny, it worked in Ireland. It worked in South Africa. The world is full of reasonable Muslims. Talk might work again. I would back it ahead of sneaky sniper bullets any day.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 05:48PM)
The world is, indeed, full of reasonable Muslims.

Unfortunately, there are quite a few unreasonable ones, too, and they're the ones causing the problems.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 05:53PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The world is, indeed, full of reasonable Muslims.

Unfortunately, there are quite a few unreasonable ones, too, and they're the ones causing the problems. [/quote]
So they are the ones we really need to talk to.

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, two vicious murdering terrorists. We wouldn't have peace in Ireland if we hadn't overcome our revulsion and sat down with them.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 06:58PM)
Who is stopping you from implementing this oh so simple solution?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Feb 1, 2015 07:24PM)
The armchair...
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 1, 2015 07:47PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...

Not a xenophobe necessarily, but a monster certainly. If you killed out of a sense of duty, and to save lives, I can get that. But if it gave you great pleasure, that would indicate a serious character flaw in you.

As I said, read his book. His own words condemn him. [/quote]

Thought I'd take you up on it since I've only seen the movie. Like you, I read the first chapter.. Yep, just as I thought. He was a hero.
Message: Posted by: w_s_anderson (Feb 1, 2015 07:53PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
The armchair... [/quote]

Well said!!
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 1, 2015 08:00PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
He was a deeply biased and racist man, who had a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'.... [/quote]

I challenge you to quote where in the book it shows him to be racist and to have a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 08:06PM)
Danny wrote:
[quote]I wish there was a way that each could live the consequences of their own personal viewpoint. You guys could live in a world where the soldier does exist and it not affect anyone but you. Too bad this is a fantasy. You guys get the benefit of holding them in contempt and live under the very freedoms the soldier provides. How lucky for you.[/quote]

The fantasy is in your thinking that psychopathic soldiers like Chris Kyle benefit my safety. They increase my likelihood of encountering danger, and the likelihood that there will be terrorist blowback. But the peace movement will keep carrying on fighting for the freedoms that they have always had to fight for despite conservative obstruction. And you get the benefit. How lucky for you.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 08:43PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
He was a deeply biased and racist man, who had a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'.... [/quote]

I challenge you to quote where in the book it shows him to be racist and to have a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. [/quote]
The first three pages make it crystal clear.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 08:47PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Who is stopping you from implementing this oh so simple solution? [/quote]
Lack of authority. It is not my country. We implemented it in Ireland. As an Irishman I backed it fully. As a journalist I was able to campaign for it. I don't live in the Middle East. What's stopping you do something? Unlike Ireland, America has butted it, and quite aggressively.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Feb 1, 2015 09:19PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, landmark wrote:

But the peace movement will keep carrying on fighting for the freedoms that they have always had to fight for despite conservative obstruction. And you get the benefit. How lucky for you. [/quote]

The peace movement has never fought for anything!

Cowards do not fight!
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 1, 2015 09:21PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
He was a deeply biased and racist man, who had a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'.... [/quote]

I challenge you to quote where in the book it shows him to be racist and to have a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. [/quote]
The first three pages make it crystal clear. [/quote]

Is that a quote? You do know a quote when you see one don't you?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 09:22PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Who is stopping you from implementing this oh so simple solution? [/quote]
Lack of authority. It is not my country. We implemented it in Ireland. As an Irishman I backed it fully. As a journalist I was able to campaign for it. I don't live in the Middle East. What's stopping you do something? Unlike Ireland, America has butted it, and quite aggressively. [/quote]


If you think that what worked in Ireland will necessarily work elsewhere, I think your argument rests on a faulty assumption.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 1, 2015 09:23PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
... Unlike Ireland, America has butted it, and quite aggressively. [/quote]

Yes, it was established earlier that Ireland doesn't like to butt in. But apparently, they're very contrite about it later.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 09:35PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Who is stopping you from implementing this oh so simple solution? [/quote]
Lack of authority. It is not my country. We implemented it in Ireland. As an Irishman I backed it fully. As a journalist I was able to campaign for it. I don't live in the Middle East. What's stopping you do something? Unlike Ireland, America has butted it, and quite aggressively. [/quote]


If you think that what worked in Ireland will necessarily work elsewhere, I think your argument rests on a faulty assumption. [/quote]

If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 09:54PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, landmark wrote:

But the peace movement will keep carrying on fighting for the freedoms that they have always had to fight for despite conservative obstruction. And you get the benefit. How lucky for you. [/quote]

The peace movement has never fought for anything!

Cowards do not fight! [/quote]
Fought and won.
But that wold require knowing history.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 1, 2015 09:54PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
...
If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century. [/quote]

Don't tell that to Kuwait. ... or Europe.

... Or were you referring to the 21st century?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 09:55PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
...
If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century. [/quote]

Don't tell that to Kuwait. [/quote]

the middle east is now secure? Thanks for telling me!
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 09:58PM)
Kuwait. Yah. That little adventure turned out just dandy.

Kind of like celebrating the solitary wall of a house left standing after you destroyed it with bombs.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 10:02PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Who is stopping you from implementing this oh so simple solution? [/quote]
Lack of authority. It is not my country. We implemented it in Ireland. As an Irishman I backed it fully. As a journalist I was able to campaign for it. I don't live in the Middle East. What's stopping you do something? Unlike Ireland, America has butted it, and quite aggressively. [/quote]


If you think that what worked in Ireland will necessarily work elsewhere, I think your argument rests on a faulty assumption. [/quote]

If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century. [/quote]


And what odds do you put on sitting down and reasoning with ISIL, Al Qaeda, et al?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 10:05PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
...
If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century. [/quote]

Don't tell that to Kuwait. [/quote]

the middle east is now secure? Thanks for telling me! [/quote]

So is it that Kuwait is not a region?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 10:06PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
Kuwait. Yah. That little adventure turned out just dandy.

Kind of like celebrating the solitary wall of a house left standing after you destroyed it with bombs. [/quote]

And to think it could be a fine upstanding province of Iraq if we'd just left it alone!
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 10:17PM)
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 1, 2015 10:24PM)
Sure seems that way, doesn't it?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 10:28PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
He was a deeply biased and racist man, who had a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'.... [/quote]

I challenge you to quote where in the book it shows him to be racist and to have a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. [/quote]
The first three pages make it crystal clear. [/quote]


Is that a quote? You do know a quote when you see one don't you? [/quote]
If you have, as you claim, read the first chapter, and you haven't spotted the xeonphobia and the casual racism, the fault lies in your level of reading comprehension. There is nothing I can do to help you on that.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 10:29PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
Kuwait. Yah. That little adventure turned out just dandy.

Kind of like celebrating the solitary wall of a house left standing after you destroyed it with bombs. [/quote]

And to think it could be a fine upstanding province of Iraq if we'd just left it alone! [/quote]

Is your premise that Iraq is now, at last, a fine upstanding province? The harsh reality is that many, many thousands of people would still be alive and millions would have homes, but for US intervention. Instead, the US has destroyed thousands of years of culture, decades of infrastructure, and brought even more terror and regional instability to the area. Are we one whit safer for all the lives and money spent? In a word, no. We are all in far more danger than in 2003 from this failed, failed policy.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 10:38PM)
My premise is that Kuwait still exists.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 10:41PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy? [/quote]

So now that you're done questioning my understanding of 20 century history, you're going to regroup without weighing in on Tony's premise that making nice with militant Islamic terrorists is the quick and easy way to peace, on the grounds that it worked in Ireland? Here I thought [i]that[/i] was the proposition before us.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Feb 1, 2015 10:44PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[
...we [in Ireland] changed our approach. Instead of snipping at each other, and bombing each other, and killing women and children, we sat down and talked. We stopped seeking retribution. And within about three years we had peace, prosperity, old enemies working side by side in friendship. What thirty years of violence and bloodshed couldn't achieve, three years of dialog achieved.

Soldiers and terrorists talking, and trying to understand one another, works. That's fact, not speculation. [/quote]

OK, but don't pat your national back too hard:

"The simple explanation for the Good Friday Agreement is that George Mitchell, a representative of President Clinton, spent years working with the two sides and developing the principles that formed the basis of the agreement."

Source: page 2 of http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/13509/1/BPhil_FINAL.pdf

The USA engages diplomatically when it can. Nonetheless, military action remains an unfortunate necessity at times. Chris Kyle was called upon to help with the latter, and he did it exceptionally well. That doesn't mean there weren't hundreds of dedicated public servants in the State Department working on alternate strategies at the same time.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Feb 1, 2015 10:57PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[
Carjacking story falls in his favour, both legally and morally? In what universe? Legally, if true, he executed two people without any legal process. No trial, no conviction. That is legally indefensibly. And as for morally, he is on even shakier ground. Is this the law of the Hollywood old west, where the man with the quickest draw is king? That is a morally warped world view.

[/quote]

Maybe you have a different legal system in Ireland (although I doubt it, since our laws are based on English common law, so perhaps you misunderstand your own system), but here in the USA, you are legally entitled to use deadly force on individuals who threaten you or others with deadly force - which is a necessary component of "carjacking." Why would it be immoral? You are a victim who is preserving your life by stopping a threat. Their rights end where yours begin. There's no legitimate ethical issue.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 10:58PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy? [/quote]

First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

Then is it ok to just call him a murderer?

As for war vs diplomacy how did that work out in WWII? How can you put forth a blanket idea that one is ALWAYS better than the other?

Clearly several here feel no war is ever justified. This is the position that informs all if their opinions. Fairly sad position to take.

Some feel war is always the best first Orion. Again fairly sad position to take.

But it is pathetic to frame it as you have to pay moral gotcha games.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 10:59PM)
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 11:02PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy? [/quote]

So now that you're done questioning my understanding of 20 century history, you're going to regroup without weighing in on Tony's premise that making nice with militant Islamic terrorists is the quick and easy way to peace, on the grounds that it worked in Ireland? Here I thought [i]that[/i] was the proposition before us. [/quote]

You're not being honest. Tony never suggested "being nice". He did, however, use the Irish example of difficult diplomacy. Let's not trivialize a serious idea.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 11:03PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy? [/quote]

First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

Then is it ok to just call him a murderer?

As for war vs diplomacy how did that work out in WWII? How can you put forth a blanket idea that one is ALWAYS better than the other?

Clearly several here feel no war is ever justified. This is the position that informs all if their opinions. Fairly sad position to take.

Some feel war is always the best first Orion. Again fairly sad position to take.

But it is pathetic to frame it as you have to pay moral gotcha games. [/quote]

Have I said any of those things, Danny? Nope.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 11:06PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy? [/quote]

So now that you're done questioning my understanding of 20 century history, you're going to regroup without weighing in on Tony's premise that making nice with militant Islamic terrorists is the quick and easy way to peace, on the grounds that it worked in Ireland? Here I thought [i]that[/i] was the proposition before us. [/quote]

You're not being honest. Tony never suggested "being nice". He did, however, use the Irish example of difficult diplomacy. Let's not trivialize a serious idea. [/quote]

Ok, how do you assess the chances of "sitting down and talking" with ISIL and Al Qaeda as a relatively simple strategy to end extremist Islamic terrorism?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 11:09PM)
And/or the notion that "it worked here, so it will work there"?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 1, 2015 11:10PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy? [/quote]

So now that you're done questioning my understanding of 20 century history, you're going to regroup without weighing in on Tony's premise that making nice with militant Islamic terrorists is the quick and easy way to peace, on the grounds that it worked in Ireland? Here I thought [i]that[/i] was the proposition before us. [/quote]

You're not being honest. Tony never suggested "being nice". He did, however, use the Irish example of difficult diplomacy. Let's not trivialize a serious idea. [/quote]

Ok, how do you assess the chances of "sitting down and talking" with ISIL and Al Qaeda as a relatively simple strategy to end extremist Islamic terrorism? [/quote]

Let's first deal with acknowledging what Tony actually said.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 11:10PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[
Carjacking story falls in his favour, both legally and morally? In what universe? Legally, if true, he executed two people without any legal process. No trial, no conviction. That is legally indefensibly. And as for morally, he is on even shakier ground. Is this the law of the Hollywood old west, where the man with the quickest draw is king? That is a morally warped world view.

[/quote]

Maybe you have a different legal system in Ireland (although I doubt it, since our laws are based on English common law, so perhaps you misunderstand your own system), but here in the USA, you are legally entitled to use deadly force on individuals who threaten you or others with deadly force - which is a necessary component of "carjacking." Why would it be immoral? You are a victim who is preserving your life by stopping a threat. Their rights end where yours begin. There's no legitimate ethical issue. [/quote]
We do have a different legal system in Ireland and the UK. You are not automatically entitled to use deadly force on those threatening you. Reasonable force yes, deadly force, no.

Our legal systems differ from the USA in a number of respects. For instance, in common with the entire developed world, we do not execute criminals. Only third world countries - and the USA - do that.

(I know there are a very few countries, like Japan, that occasionally execute prisoners, but it has virtually died out in the civilized world none the less).
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 1, 2015 11:18PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[
...we [in Ireland] changed our approach. Instead of snipping at each other, and bombing each other, and killing women and children, we sat down and talked. We stopped seeking retribution. And within about three years we had peace, prosperity, old enemies working side by side in friendship. What thirty years of violence and bloodshed couldn't achieve, three years of dialog achieved.

Soldiers and terrorists talking, and trying to understand one another, works. That's fact, not speculation. [/quote]

OK, but don't pat your national back too hard:

"The simple explanation for the Good Friday Agreement is that George Mitchell, a representative of President Clinton, spent years working with the two sides and developing the principles that formed the basis of the agreement."
[/quote]
True - but that is not the full picture. George Mitchell became involved after the contacts were made by both the Irish and the British governments with the paramilitaries. He joined the peace process in 1995, but the initial moves had been taken around seven years prior to this. He was involved in the final three years of a ten year process. Because he was an outsider, with the backing of a major world power, he had the gravitas to be a great dialog facilitator.

It is a shame that the US doesn't try the same in the middle east. It has been shown to work in Ireland. If you had sent troops into Ireland it would not have produced peace. All I am saying is that there are more mature ways of the US handing foreign policy than the shoot 'em up redneckery of Chris Kyle and his ilk.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 1, 2015 11:18PM)
Are you really going to go that route Tony?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 11:26PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Let's first deal with acknowledging what Tony actually said. [/quote]

[b]Having lived in a country with a major terrorism problem, as opposed to the odd incident you have in the USA, I feel I am quite qualified to comment on this. For thirty years the terrorists and the army/police fought, and thousands were killed, most innocent non-combatants. Probably like several of Kyle's victims if we were to analyze each kill. Levels of hatred and bigotry were so high here Kyle would have fitted right in.

Then we changed our approach. Instead of snipping at each other, and bombing each other, and killing women and children, we sat down and talked. We stopped seeking retribution. And within about three years we had peace, prosperity, old enemies working side by side in friendship. What thirty years of violence and bloodshed couldn't achieve, three years of dialog achieved.

Soldiers and terrorists talking, and trying to understand one another, works. That's fact, not speculation.[/b]


ok, now that that's out of the way...have at it.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 1, 2015 11:33PM)
Seriously folks. How can one take anything an individual that believes this makes sense? No Pants Subway Ride 2015

I really feel that speaks volumes. Yea lets listen to what a person has to say that likes to ride the subway after taking off his pants and standing there reading a newspaper. Yea I want to know this guy's thoughts about the world situation. :) NOT.

Now who could this person be? Please step forward and identify yourself. But first put on a pair of pants. Jeez...
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 11:34PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks? [/quote]
The refusal of Germans to join the military.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 1, 2015 11:36PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Seriously folks. How can one take anything an individual that believes this makes sense? No Pants Subway Ride 2015

I really feel that speaks volumes. Yea lets listen to what a person has to say that likes to ride the subway after taking off his pants and standing there reading a newspaper. Yea I want to know this guy's thoughts about the world situation. :) NOT.

Now who could this person be? Please step forward and identify yourself. But first put on a pair of pants. Jeez...

By the way this individual thinks Chris Kyle had issues because he was an American soldier who killed enemies of The United States of America.. :) [/quote]
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 11:37PM)
[quote]First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?
[/quote]
No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Feb 1, 2015 11:41PM)
Tony, in regards to the carjacking, "reasonable" force could indeed be deadly force. I don't know the full details of the carjacking in question, but generally carjackings occur when the perpetrator puts a gun in the face of a victim. In which case deadly force in response would always be reasonable.

As to comparing the situation in Ireland to the situation in the Middle East - well, we're not even talking about the same things qualitatively or in terms of scope. The situation in Ireland, in terms of absolute numbers, was roughly equivalent to Los Angeles's response to its gang problem, leaving aside the fact that Los Angeles has more people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined. The Middle East troubles have had international repercussions for decades, but became a vital US interest after lower Manhattan was destroyed. You're not even comparing apples and oranges - more like mountains and raisins.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 1, 2015 11:45PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?
[/quote]
No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one. [/quote]

You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 11:45PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Seriously folks. How can one take anything an individual that believes this makes sense? No Pants Subway Ride 2015

[/quote]
Just between you and me, that wasn't my endowment in my shorts, but a concealed semi with which I shoot subway looters. American Sniper all the way, baby!
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 1, 2015 11:46PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks? [/quote]
The refusal of Germans to join the military. [/quote]

Agreed, but not one of the choices.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 11:50PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?
[/quote]
No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one. [/quote]

You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed. [/quote]
Sorry, but fighting in an immoral war doesn't instantly make them heroes. They may have been good men who thought they were doing good, but that alone doesn't make them heroes.

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 1, 2015 11:55PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?
[/quote]
No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one. [/quote]

You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed. [/quote]
Sorry, but fighting in an immoral war doesn't instantly make them heroes. They may have been good men who thought they were doing good, but that alone doesn't make them heroes.

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall. [/quote]

If your "sorry" stated above in your post is an apology for your following statement it is not accepted.

Do yourself a favor and don't GO THERE. It is not the way to make friends.

I hope we never meet in person.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 1, 2015 11:58PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks? [/quote]
The refusal of Germans to join the military. [/quote]

Agreed, but not one of the choices. [/quote]
Then what is the point of the question, if you're going to restrict the answers?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 2, 2015 12:01AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?
[/quote]
No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one. [/quote]

You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed. [/quote]
Sorry, but fighting in an immoral war doesn't instantly make them heroes. They may have been good men who thought they were doing good, but that alone doesn't make them heroes.

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall. [/quote]

If your "sorry" stated above in your post is an apology for your following statement it is not accepted.

Do yourself a favor and don't GO THERE. It is not the way to make friends.

I hope we never meet in person. [/quote]
Well, John, I'm truly sorry you feel that way, and I wouldn't mind having a drink with you some day, but I am not at all sorry for the way I think or feel about the war.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 2, 2015 12:14AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?
[/quote]
No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one. [/quote]

You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed. [/quote]
Sorry, but fighting in an immoral war doesn't instantly make them heroes. They may have been good men who thought they were doing good, but that alone doesn't make them heroes.

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall. [/quote]

If your "sorry" stated above in your post is an apology for your following statement it is not accepted.

Do yourself a favor and don't GO THERE. It is not the way to make friends.

I hope we never meet in person. [/quote]
Well, John, I'm truly sorry you feel that way, and I wouldn't mind having a drink with you some day, but I am not at all sorry for the way I think or feel about the war. [/quote]

It wasn't about the war. It was about American men that gave their lives for their country. Nice dodge but it does not hold water.

Good Night...
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 2, 2015 12:33AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks? [/quote]
The refusal of Germans to join the military. [/quote]

Agreed, but not one of the choices. [/quote]
Then what is the point of the question, if you're going to restrict the answers? [/quote]

The point of the question is to illustrate the fallacy of the notion that what has worked in the past under one set of circumstances would work under a very different set of circumstances.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 2, 2015 06:13AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
By the way this individual thinks Chris Kyle had issues because he was an American soldier who killed enemies of The United States of America.. :) [/quote] [/quote]

I don't know what your obsession is with pants and subways, and whether I wear a pants or not. That is your personal picadillo, and perhaps you should keep it personal. As for Chris Kyle, I don't have an issue with him because he is an American soldier who kills the enemies of the United States. I have an issue with him because he was a deeply flawed individual, a proven liar, a conscienceless killer, and a nasty piece of work. And that is judging him on his own words.

As for the victims of the Vietnam War, dying in Vietnam does not automatically make you a hero. Some of the dead were heroes, some were nasty pricks the world is better off without (remember My Lai). Most were ordinary grunts conscripted into a war they had no stake in. If you don't understand that, the problem is with you not with Landmark or any of the others here. When I think of Vietnam heroes I think of Muhammad Ali and others who risked jail and disgrace, career suicide, to opt out of a conflict that they felt was morally wrong.

What makes someone an enemy of the USA? Your foreign policy. The Viet Cong never attacked America. The Iraqis were not involved in 9/11. In many cases you choose your enemies. They didn't attack you. And they are not all sub-human savages, as Kyle believed.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 2, 2015 06:25AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Tony, in regards to the carjacking, "reasonable" force could indeed be deadly force. I don't know the full details of the carjacking in question, but generally carjackings occur when the perpetrator puts a gun in the face of a victim. In which case deadly force in response would always be reasonable.

As to comparing the situation in Ireland to the situation in the Middle East - well, we're not even talking about the same things qualitatively or in terms of scope. The situation in Ireland, in terms of absolute numbers, was roughly equivalent to Los Angeles's response to its gang problem, leaving aside the fact that Los Angeles has more people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined. The Middle East troubles have had international repercussions for decades, but became a vital US interest after lower Manhattan was destroyed. You're not even comparing apples and oranges - more like mountains and raisins. [/quote]
Los Angeles has less people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined - less people than Ireland alone, in fact. Leaving the factual errors aside, in terms of numbers those killed in Northern Ireland compared to average yearly gang related deaths in Los Angeles, then the figures are comparable. Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation, don't throw it in here as a red herring which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The population of the middle east is well over 200 million. Scale up the deaths in the Irish conflict, and the numbers are very comparable. Comparing one political situation to another of a similar nature, but on a bigger scale, is a legitimate comparison. Comparing a political situation to a gang problem, as you did, is a less legitimate and less useful comparison.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Feb 2, 2015 06:43AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall. [/quote]

First, there are 58,272 names on the VVM.

And, the peace movement had NOTHING to do with eliminating any names from that wall...unless you count the cowards who evaded or eluded service.

Remind me...how did the 1972 election work out for the peace movement?

Oh, that's right - George McGovern won ONE state!
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Feb 2, 2015 06:47AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation, don't throw it in here as a red herring which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[/quote]

In Los Angeles you have criminals and gang bangers out of control.

Don't throw in the red herring gun control garbage.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 2, 2015 07:04AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks? [/quote]
The refusal of Germans to join the military. [/quote]

Agreed, but not one of the choices. [/quote]
Then what is the point of the question, if you're going to restrict the answers? [/quote]

The point of the question is to illustrate the fallacy of the notion that what has worked in the past under one set of circumstances would work under a very different set of circumstances. [/quote]

Like fighting pointless wars?

I think now we're in a somewhat different discussion from the two or three happening in this thread. But I'm fine talking about the effectiveness of non-violent resistance tactics in different situations, if that's where you want to take it.

Gene Sharp's amazing historical research on that question used to be available for free on the Internet, I'll see if I can find a link. As I said before, I'm not a pacifist, but I think non-violent methods of resistance can be very powerful.

But more directly, hunger strikes and students in front of tanks are not the only forms of non-violent resistance. Refusal to serve is one more tactic. And it is not one or the other. Usually in a non-violent campaign many tactics are used at once, sometimes even while other violent tactics are used by others. The non-violent actions of the Danes (notwithstanding the false story about the king sporting a yellow star) give some indication of the range of possibilities:

"During the summer, several [i]nationwide strikes[/i] led to armed confrontations between Danes and German troops. In the wake of increased resistance activities and riots, the German occupation authorities presented the Danish government with an ultimatum on August 28, 1943; they demanded a ban on [i]strikes,[/i] a curfew, and the punishment of [i]sabotage [/i]with the death penalty.

When Danish civil servants at several levels in different ministries learned of the German plan to round up all Danish Jews, they independently pursued various measures to find the Jews and hide them. Some simply [i]phoned friends and asked them to go through telephone books and warn those with Jewish-sounding names to go into hiding.[/i]

Niels Bohr, the Danish physicist whose mother was Jewish, made a determined stand for his fellow countrymen in a personal appeal to the Swedish king and government ministers.[7] He was spirited off to Sweden, whose government arranged immediate transport for him to the United States to work on the then top-secret Manhattan Project. When Bohr touched Swedish soil, government representatives told him he had to board a plane immediately for the United States. [i]Bohr refused. He told the officials, and eventually the king, that until they announced over their air waves and through their press that their borders would be open to receive the Danish Jews, he wasn't going anywhere.[/i] Bohr wrote of these events himself.[8] As related by the historian Richard Rhodes,[7] on September 30 Bohr persuaded King Gustaf V of Sweden to make public Sweden’s willingness to provide asylum, and on October 2 Swedish radio broadcast that Sweden was ready to receive the Jewish refugees."

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Feb 2, 2015 07:31AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

Los Angeles has less people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined - less people than Ireland alone, in fact.

[/quote]

"The population of Ireland is about 6.4 million. Just under 4.6 million live in the Republic of Ireland and just over 1.8 million live in Northern Ireland." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

The population of Los Angeles county was 10.02 million in 2013.

[quote]

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation

[/quote]

Maybe you're not aware of this, but the troubles in Ireland are sometimes referred to here as an example of the unintended consequences of gun control. You had a group of terrorists that were able to wield extraordinary power and intimidate large numbers of people because... they had guns. And others didn't.

Regardless, qualitatively you're on shaky ground, to say the least, if you compare a reconciliation between the Protestants and Catholics in an ethnically homogenous country to the task at hand in the Middle East, which goes way beyond any Sunni/Shiite issues. If it had stayed an internal Sunni/Shiite conflict, Chris Kyle might have remained a rodeo cowboy.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 2, 2015 07:31AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall. [/quote]

First, there are 58,272 names on the VVM.

And, the peace movement had NOTHING to do with eliminating any names from that wall...unless you count the cowards who evaded or eluded service.

Remind me...how did the 1972 election work out for the peace movement?

Oh, that's right - George McGovern won ONE state! [/quote]
The end of the Vietnam war was a direct consequence of two things: 1) the underestimation by the US of the determination of the Vietnamese fighting for their land and 2) the peace movement's unrelenting pressure on the domestic side. In 1968, Nixon was so aware of that feeling in the country that he presented himself as the candidate with a secret plan to get us out of Vietnam. The war came to an end in large part because the cost of domestic disturbance at home was too high for the US politicians. In the military itself, there was enormous resistance, too, as I'm sure you remember. Recruits were refusing to take orders, and officers were finding themselves fragged.

What was a small movement in 1963 grew to millions and millions of Americans by 1973. Without the peace movement, that war would have gone on and on, and more American and Vietnamese lives would have been thrown away. By 1973 it became politically infeasible to continue fighting that war. We directly saved thousands and thousands of American lives. I only regret we could not do more, sooner.

I know, you and aces and others feel very strongly about what happened. That's understandable. Awful things happened. Friends got killed. But there are plenty of Viet vets, too, who hated that war and pray that the country never sends American boys to an immoral war like that again. Some of them give back by speaking in schools to young people, telling them of their experiences, and why the romance and dream, and more importantly, the stated purpose of that war was a lie.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 2, 2015 09:01AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
By the way this individual thinks Chris Kyle had issues because he was an American soldier who killed enemies of The United States of America.. :) [/quote] [/quote]

I don't know what your obsession is with pants and subways, and whether I wear a pants or not. That is your personal picadillo, and perhaps you should keep it personal. As for Chris Kyle, I don't have an issue with him because he is an American soldier who kills the enemies of the United States. I have an issue with him because he was a deeply flawed individual, a proven liar, a conscienceless killer, and a nasty piece of work. And that is judging him on his own words.

As for the victims of the Vietnam War, dying in Vietnam does not automatically make you a hero. Some of the dead were heroes, some were nasty pricks the world is better off without (remember My Lai). Most were ordinary grunts conscripted into a war they had no stake in. If you don't understand that, the problem is with you not with Landmark or any of the others here. When I think of Vietnam heroes I think of Muhammad Ali and others who risked jail and disgrace, career suicide, to opt out of a conflict that they felt was morally wrong.

What makes someone an enemy of the USA? Your foreign policy. The Viet Cong never attacked America. The Iraqis were not involved in 9/11. In many cases you choose your enemies. They didn't attack you. And they are not all sub-human savages, as Kyle believed. [/quote]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha,ha. Sorry for the confusion. The pants and subway does not refer to you. I should have explained. My bad. Here is the topic. By guess who.

http://themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=575926&forum=32
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 2, 2015 09:07AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Tony, in regards to the carjacking, "reasonable" force could indeed be deadly force. I don't know the full details of the carjacking in question, but generally carjackings occur when the perpetrator puts a gun in the face of a victim. In which case deadly force in response would always be reasonable.

As to comparing the situation in Ireland to the situation in the Middle East - well, we're not even talking about the same things qualitatively or in terms of scope. The situation in Ireland, in terms of absolute numbers, was roughly equivalent to Los Angeles's response to its gang problem, leaving aside the fact that Los Angeles has more people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined. The Middle East troubles have had international repercussions for decades, but became a vital US interest after lower Manhattan was destroyed. You're not even comparing apples and oranges - more like mountains and raisins. [/quote]
Los Angeles has less people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined - less people than Ireland alone, in fact. Leaving the factual errors aside, in terms of numbers those killed in Northern Ireland compared to average yearly gang related deaths in Los Angeles, then the figures are comparable. Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation, don't throw it in here as a red herring which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The population of the middle east is well over 200 million. Scale up the deaths in the Irish conflict, and the numbers are very comparable. Comparing one political situation to another of a similar nature, but on a bigger scale, is a legitimate comparison. Comparing a political situation to a gang problem, as you did, is a less legitimate and less useful comparison. [/quote]

Calif has the toughest gun laws in the country. What are you talking about? According to you that should mean they have the least gun control problems in the U.S. Hmmmmm. Another myth debunked.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 09:56AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
... Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.
... [/quote]

What? Were they all killed with pairing knives? Or didn't Ireland have tough gun control laws?
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 10:02AM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
If you have, as you claim, read the first chapter, and you haven't spotted the xeonphobia and the casual racism, the fault lies in your level of reading comprehension. There is nothing I can do to help you on that. [/quote]

Well, I'm not a mind-reader and I wouldn't want to assume what you thought proved Kyle a xenophobe and racist.

Be that as it may, I can only think of 3 reasons why someone would make a claim that something he read proves Kyle was a xenophobe and racist but not be willing to provide that quote.

1. They're a liar and didn't actually read any of the book.

2. They realize that what they read doesn't actually prove what they claim it proves and so, they're still a liar.

3. They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does.

Now, I don't really think it's number 1 and seeing as how you're a 'writer' and all, I wouldn't think you would have a problem with reading comprehension, so I'm gonna have to go with #2.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 2, 2015 10:35AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
I think now we're in a somewhat different discussion from the two or three happening in this thread.
[/quote]
No, we're not.

[quote]But I'm fine talking about the effectiveness of non-violent resistance tactics in different situations, if that's where you want to take it.
[/quote]

I'm not taking it anywhere. I'm directly responding to the reasoning in the last post on page 6.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 2, 2015 10:39AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Tony, in regards to the carjacking, "reasonable" force could indeed be deadly force. I don't know the full details of the carjacking in question, but generally carjackings occur when the perpetrator puts a gun in the face of a victim. In which case deadly force in response would always be reasonable.

As to comparing the situation in Ireland to the situation in the Middle East - well, we're not even talking about the same things qualitatively or in terms of scope. The situation in Ireland, in terms of absolute numbers, was roughly equivalent to Los Angeles's response to its gang problem, leaving aside the fact that Los Angeles has more people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined. The Middle East troubles have had international repercussions for decades, but became a vital US interest after lower Manhattan was destroyed. You're not even comparing apples and oranges - more like mountains and raisins. [/quote]
Los Angeles has less people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined - less people than Ireland alone, in fact. Leaving the factual errors aside, in terms of numbers those killed in Northern Ireland compared to average yearly gang related deaths in Los Angeles, then the figures are comparable. Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation, don't throw it in here as a red herring which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The population of the middle east is well over 200 million. Scale up the deaths in the Irish conflict, and the numbers are very comparable. Comparing one political situation to another of a similar nature, but on a bigger scale, is a legitimate comparison. Comparing a political situation to a gang problem, as you did, is a less legitimate and less useful comparison. [/quote]

The political situations in Ireland and the Middle East are not "of a similar nature."

And you don't understand the United States and Los Angeles nearly as well as you think you do, or as you understand Ireland.

The population issue is a draw; Los Angeles is both a city and a county.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 2, 2015 10:44AM)
Los Angeles County alone has about 10 million.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 2, 2015 10:44AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
... Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.
... [/quote]

What? Were they all killed with pairing knives? Or didn't Ireland have tough gun control laws? [/quote]


:applause:
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 2, 2015 11:27AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
... Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.
... [/quote]

What? Were they all killed with pairing knives? Or didn't Ireland have tough gun control laws? [/quote]

Mostly bombs, actually. But illegal assault rifles were also supplied by Libyan and American arms dealers. In the early years, legally owned WWII surplus rifles were the weapon of choice.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 2, 2015 11:35AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
If you have, as you claim, read the first chapter, and you haven't spotted the xeonphobia and the casual racism, the fault lies in your level of reading comprehension. There is nothing I can do to help you on that. [/quote]

Well, I'm not a mind-reader and I wouldn't want to assume what you thought proved Kyle a xenophobe and racist.

Be that as it may, I can only think of 3 reasons why someone would make a claim that something he read proves Kyle was a xenophobe and racist but not be willing to provide that quote.

1. They're a liar and didn't actually read any of the book.

2. They realize that what they read doesn't actually prove what they claim it proves and so, they're still a liar.

3. They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does.

Now, I don't really think it's number 1 and seeing as how you're a 'writer' and all, I wouldn't think you would have a problem with reading comprehension, so I'm gonna have to go with #2. [/quote]
Or 4. Typing a whole chapter into a little green box is time consuming.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 2, 2015 11:39AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
... Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.
... [/quote]

What? Were they all killed with pairing knives? Or didn't Ireland have tough gun control laws? [/quote]

Mostly bombs, actually. But illegal assault rifles were also supplied by Libyan and American arms dealers. In the early years, legally owned WWII surplus rifles were the weapon of choice. [/quote]

If only they'd made bombs illegal years earlier.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 2, 2015 11:51AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
I think now we're in a somewhat different discussion from the two or three happening in this thread.
[/quote]
No, we're not.

[quote]But I'm fine talking about the effectiveness of non-violent resistance tactics in different situations, if that's where you want to take it.
[/quote]

I'm not taking it anywhere. I'm directly responding to the reasoning in the last post on page 6. [/quote]
It seems to me that you and Tony are talking about the effectiveness of diplomacy and negotiating with the enemy, not non-violent resistance.

My reading of the Irish situation--and I'm admittedly not well-versed on it--is that after decades and decades of fighting, the majority population on both sides were very weary of fighting and killing and dying. This led to an opportunity--the majority on both sides demanded that their leaders sit down and negotiate.

I don't think the Middle East situation is the same, though it may become that. In the Middle East,the most important things the US can do is to stop supporting fanatic fundamentalist governments like Saudi Arabia and the UAE and Bahrain, call Israel and Egypt out when they violate international law, and stop the US mass manufacture of terrorists through torture programs, arming of groups whose politics they don't understand, and the drone bombing of civilians.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 2, 2015 12:10PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
It seems to me that you and Tony are talking about the effectiveness of diplomacy and negotiating with the enemy, not non-violent resistance. [/quote]
Tony is talking about that, and he's arguing by analogy that such a strategy would likely be effective in the Middle East as evidenced by the fact that it worked in Ireland. My tongue-in-cheek question to which you responded was designed to point out the fallacy in that logic. Stand in front of Hitler's tanks, for instance, and see how far that gets you. Have Gandhi tell Hitler that he'll stop eating if he doesn't vacate France. Good luck with that. My point wasn't about non-violence, per se; it's about Tony's repeated (see also a number of past gun control threads) and inapposite extrapolation or Ireland to the rest of the world.



[quote]
I don't think the Middle East situation is the same [/quote]

That's all I was saying, in my own convoluted way.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Feb 2, 2015 01:18PM)
RIP Chris Kyle.

Gone two years today. :cry:
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 04:22PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
...
Or 4. Typing a whole chapter into a little green box is time consuming. [/quote]

I suspect you haven't read the chapter. I can guarantee that there is very little in the chapter that would even remotely constitute what he's claiming. (Unless talking about growing up in Texas and learning to cut horses and ride rodeo somehow makes someone a racist.) So no, not 4.

But don't take my work for it, you can see for yourself. Here:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Autobiography-Military-History/dp/0062238868/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422915481&sr=8-1&keywords=american+sniper

Amazon has very kindly allowed you to read much of the first chapter for free.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 2, 2015 04:30PM)
I never claimed to have read the book. I was offering a more plausible reason for not posting the chapter.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 2, 2015 04:39PM)
And be gave a plausible reason why that is wrong.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 04:42PM)
I didn't say you had. I was only trying to helpfully point out why there is no possible reason why the whole chapter would have to be posted. (Besides the fact that he also said, "The first three pages make it crystal clear.") But believe me, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't even need to post anywhere near 3 pages to find the little snippet that he wants to twist into making Kyle a racist and xenophobe.

But hey, I'm willing to be proven wrong. Let's add 4: It's possible there's something on the first 3 pages that I missed. (Although I doubt it and that would still beg the question of why he's unwilling to post it.)
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 2, 2015 04:44PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
...
Or 4. Typing a whole chapter into a little green box is time consuming. [/quote]

I suspect you haven't read the chapter. I can guarantee that there is very little in the chapter that would even remotely constitute what he's claiming. (Unless talking about growing up in Texas and learning to cut horses and ride rodeo somehow makes someone a racist.) So no, not 4.

But don't take my work for it, you can see for yourself. Here:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Autobiography-Military-History/dp/0062238868/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422915481&sr=8-1&keywords=american+sniper

Amazon has very kindly allowed you to read much of the first chapter for free. [/quote]

Can you read it? Maybe I'm blocked here in Canada, because all I see are the front and back covers and size chart. :(
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 2, 2015 05:05PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
...
Or 4. Typing a whole chapter into a little green box is time consuming. [/quote]

I suspect you haven't read the chapter. I can guarantee that there is very little in the chapter that would even remotely constitute what he's claiming. (Unless talking about growing up in Texas and learning to cut horses and ride rodeo somehow makes someone a racist.) So no, not 4.

But don't take my work for it, you can see for yourself. Here:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Autobiography-Military-History/dp/0062238868/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422915481&sr=8-1&keywords=american+sniper

Amazon has very kindly allowed you to read much of the first chapter for free. [/quote]


Probably 20% or so of NVMS would agree that growing up in Texas suffices to support the "racist" charge.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 05:06PM)
Do you see the 'Look Inside' message just above the book? If you click on that, it pops up a window that allows you to read multiple pages. (You may have pop ups blocked if it's not coming up.) Or maybe it doesn't work in Canada, I'm not sure.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 05:08PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
...

Probably 20% or so of NVMS would agree that growing up in Texas suffices to support the "racist" charge. [/quote]

And that may well be Tony's faulty reasoning but without him telling us we'll never know for sure, will we?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Feb 2, 2015 05:43PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
RIP Chris Kyle.

Gone two years today. :cry: [/quote]

With you on this, Kabbalah. Chris was a man and, to me, one hell of a man...
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 2, 2015 06:00PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
If you have, as you claim, read the first chapter, and you haven't spotted the xeonphobia and the casual racism, the fault lies in your level of reading comprehension. There is nothing I can do to help you on that. [/quote]

Well, I'm not a mind-reader and I wouldn't want to assume what you thought proved Kyle a xenophobe and racist.

Be that as it may, I can only think of 3 reasons why someone would make a claim that something he read proves Kyle was a xenophobe and racist but not be willing to provide that quote.

1. They're a liar and didn't actually read any of the book.

2. They realize that what they read doesn't actually prove what they claim it proves and so, they're still a liar.

3. They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does.

Now, I don't really think it's number 1 and seeing as how you're a 'writer' and all, I wouldn't think you would have a problem with reading comprehension, so I'm gonna have to go with #2. [/quote]
If you read the opening chapter of his book and did not see the xenophobia, the problem is with you. The xenophobia screams off the pages.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 2, 2015 06:03PM)
For example...

Come on you're a writer.

This is not the first time you make claims and don't back them up. I would think a writer would be more willing to do this as opposed to assuming agreement of all.

You may very well be right. But back it up.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 2, 2015 06:12PM)
Chris Kyle's own words:
My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman's twisted soul.
(That woman - his first victim. What makes American souls intrinsically worth more than non-American souls?)

A lot of people, myself included, called the enemy 'savages'.

I only wish I had killed more.

I loved what I did. I still do. If my family didn't need me I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun.

Is that enough for you?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 2, 2015 06:18PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Maybe you're not aware of this, but the troubles in Ireland are sometimes referred to here as an example of the unintended consequences of gun control. You had a group of terrorists that were able to wield extraordinary power and intimidate large numbers of people because... they had guns. And others didn't.

Regardless, qualitatively you're on shaky ground, to say the least, if you compare a reconciliation between the Protestants and Catholics in an ethnically homogenous country to the task at hand in the Middle East, which goes way beyond any Sunni/Shiite issues. If it had stayed an internal Sunni/Shiite conflict, Chris Kyle might have remained a rodeo cowboy. [/quote]
I, like most Irish people, am unaware of this (your first paragraph). Simply because it is not true. The terrorist groups had two weapons of choice. Bombs and baseball bats. The bombs were used for the worst atrocities, and killed thousands. The baseball bats were used to intimidate the local population. They had guns too, but less than the security forces, who were very heavily armed. It was a war of terror waged with bombs and baseball bats, so it is hardly an example of the unintended consequences of gun control.

As for your second point, Northern Ireland was not, still is not, an ethnically homogeneous population. There are three distinct ethnic groups up there. They share white skin, but are ethnically different. Just as the Sunnis and the Shiites share a skin colour but are ethnically different.

I am not saying that what worked in Ireland (and South Africa, and India, and many other places) will work every place. But it is certainly worth a shot.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 2, 2015 06:21PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Chris Kyle's own words:
My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman's twisted soul.
(That woman - his first victim. What makes American souls intrinsically worth more than non-American souls?)

A lot of people, myself included, called the enemy 'savages'.

I only wish I had killed more.

I loved what I did. I still do. If my family didn't need me I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun.

Is that enough for you? [/quote]

------------------------------------------------------------------

Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 07:01PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Chris Kyle's own words:
My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman's twisted soul.
(That woman - his first victim. What makes American souls intrinsically worth more than non-American souls?)

A lot of people, myself included, called the enemy 'savages'.

I only wish I had killed more.

I loved what I did. I still do. If my family didn't need me I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun.

Is that enough for you? [/quote]

I see, so you're going with #3. i.e. "They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does."

We'll start with racist and then move on to xenophobia.

A racist, as you are probably aware, is a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others. No where in the quotes you provide does Mr Kyle say anything about a 'race'. He talks about 'the enemy'. Those he is fighting, not the Iraqi people or any particular race. Anyone with a 5th grade level of reading comprehension would be able to figure that out. Only someone wanting to project their beliefs about what they think he 'meant' would believe otherwise.

Xenophobia. An irrational fear of foreigners or strangers. Nothing in the words you provided shows any type of irrational fear of 'foreigners'. Again, his words specifically were targeted at the enemy, not the Iraqi people. (And there was certainly nothing irrational about having a fear of being killed by this particular enemy!)

He called the enemy 'savages'. Well, I for one would certainly agree with this feeling much the same as I believe that ISIS is made up of savages. An enemy that cuts the heads off of enemy combatants and regularly sets off bombs that they know will blow up many of their own fellow citizens is nothing but savages. I would dare guess that a large percentage of Iraqi's would agree.

But hey, maybe you think they're all just wonderful people who are just a bit misunderstood and that I'm a racist and xenophobe for my opinion. On that, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

P.S. Now, that wasn't really so hard to do, was it?
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 07:14PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
...
If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century. [/quote]

Don't tell that to Kuwait. [/quote]

the middle east is now secure? Thanks for telling me! [/quote]

You seemed to have miss-placed a portion of the quote:

[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Don't tell that to Kuwait. ... or Europe.

... Or were you referring to the 21st century? [/quote]

And btw, I thought you were against putting words in someone's mouth. I never said that the Middle East is secure. I think that Kuwait could certainly be considered a region unto itself.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 2, 2015 07:27PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Chris Kyle's own words:
My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman's twisted soul.
(That woman - his first victim. What makes American souls intrinsically worth more than non-American souls?)

A lot of people, myself included, called the enemy 'savages'.

I only wish I had killed more.

I loved what I did. I still do. If my family didn't need me I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun.

Is that enough for you? [/quote]

I see, so you're going with #3. i.e. "They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does."

We'll start with racist and then move on to xenophobia.

A racist, as you are probably aware, is a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others. No where in the quotes you provide does Mr Kyle say anything about a 'race'. He talks about 'the enemy'. Those he is fighting, not the Iraqi people or any particular race. Anyone with a 5th grade level of reading comprehension would be able to figure that out. Only someone wanting to project their beliefs about what they think he 'meant' would believe otherwise.

Xenophobia. An irrational fear of foreigners or strangers. Nothing in the words you provided shows any type of irrational fear of 'foreigners'. Again, his words specifically were targeted at the enemy, not the Iraqi people. (And there was certainly nothing irrational about having a fear of being killed by this particular enemy!)

He called the enemy 'savages'. Well, I for one would certainly agree with this feeling much the same as I believe that ISIS is made up of savages. An enemy that cuts the heads off of enemy combatants and regularly sets off bombs that they know will blow up many of their own fellow citizens is nothing but savages. I would dare guess that a large percentage of Iraqi's would agree.

But hey, maybe you think they're all just wonderful people who are just a bit misunderstood and that I'm a racist and xenophobe for my opinion. On that, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

P.S. Now, that wasn't really so hard to do, was it? [/quote]
Apparently it really was so hard to do - you just don't get it. You see the words, you even understand their meaning, as separate words. You just don't see what your hero was really like. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and put it down to rose-tinted spectacles. But I think the real reason is a closed mind and a limited world view.

Doubtless you will come back with more empty noise. Knock yourself out, but it's getting stale.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 2, 2015 07:28PM)
Acesover, thanks for clarifyng the pants issue! That had me seriously confused.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 2, 2015 07:33PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Do you see the 'Look Inside' message just above the book? If you click on that, it pops up a window that allows you to read multiple pages. (You may have pop ups blocked if it's not coming up.) Or maybe it doesn't work in Canada, I'm not sure. [/quote]

Oops. I was clicking on the cover icons. Thanks.

Pretty bland stuff. Either Kyle or his ghost have very little gift for prose. Not much to see other than Kyle wrapping himself in the flag, calling the enemy "savages" and turning himself inside out to convince us that killing "savages" is not a moral problem because they are full of evil, but Kyle and his people are not.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 2, 2015 08:21PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Acesover, thanks for clarifyng the pants issue! That had me seriously confused. [/quote]

Ha, ha. I can only imagine. Thanks for the heads up[.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Feb 2, 2015 08:24PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

The terrorist groups had two weapons of choice. Bombs and baseball bats. The bombs were used for the worst atrocities, and killed thousands. The baseball bats were used to intimidate the local population. They had guns too, but less than the security forces, who were very heavily armed. It was a war of terror waged with bombs and baseball bats, so it is hardly an example of the unintended consequences of gun control.

[/quote]

So why were the Good Friday agreements so heavily predicated on the IRA giving up its cache of arms? Were they referring to baseball bats and bombs? No, the "cache" referred to firearms. What about all of the "knee-capping" incidents that were done with bullets?

Just so you know, I would love to live in a world that is entirely gun free. Sure, we'd still be killing each other with knives, swords, longbows, maces, halberds and whatnot, but guns require no skill and therefore put the power of life and death in the hands of anyone who carries them. Problem is, that ship sailed long ago. There are hundreds of millions of guns out there, and they're not biodegradable. Blunderbusses with black powder and turkey shot still are just as lethal as the day they were made. Faced with that reality, what purpose is served by making it illegal for honest citizens to defend themselves?


[quote] As for your second point, Northern Ireland was not, still is not, an ethnically homogeneous population. There are three distinct ethnic groups up there. They share white skin, but are ethnically different. [/quote]

No need to comment on that. If that's your position, you have no idea what racial and ethnic diversity and tolerance is. Spend some time in the USA to see the experiment of true diversity play out in reality. We're still struggling with it, yes, but we've come farther than any other country. We don't outlaw minarets, head scarves, or any of the other bugaboos that Europe seems to be struggling with.

Chris Kyle, of Gaelic surname descent, fought for those ideals. When he referred to "savages," he was passing judgement on behaviors and personal choices. Were you there and can you say he was wrong?
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Feb 2, 2015 08:37PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Chris Kyle's own words:
My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman's twisted soul.
(That woman - his first victim. What makes American souls intrinsically worth more than non-American souls?)

A lot of people, myself included, called the enemy 'savages'.

I only wish I had killed more.

I loved what I did. I still do. If my family didn't need me I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun.

Is that enough for you? [/quote]

I see, so you're going with #3. i.e. "They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does."

We'll start with racist and then move on to xenophobia.

A racist, as you are probably aware, is a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others. No where in the quotes you provide does Mr Kyle say anything about a 'race'. He talks about 'the enemy'. Those he is fighting, not the Iraqi people or any particular race. Anyone with a 5th grade level of reading comprehension would be able to figure that out. Only someone wanting to project their beliefs about what they think he 'meant' would believe otherwise.

Xenophobia. An irrational fear of foreigners or strangers. Nothing in the words you provided shows any type of irrational fear of 'foreigners'. Again, his words specifically were targeted at the enemy, not the Iraqi people. (And there was certainly nothing irrational about having a fear of being killed by this particular enemy!)

He called the enemy 'savages'. Well, I for one would certainly agree with this feeling much the same as I believe that ISIS is made up of savages. An enemy that cuts the heads off of enemy combatants and regularly sets off bombs that they know will blow up many of their own fellow citizens is nothing but savages. I would dare guess that a large percentage of Iraqi's would agree.

But hey, maybe you think they're all just wonderful people who are just a bit misunderstood and that I'm a racist and xenophobe for my opinion. On that, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

P.S. Now, that wasn't really so hard to do, was it? [/quote]
Apparently it really was so hard to do - you just don't get it. You see the words, you even understand their meaning, as separate words. You just don't see what your hero was really like. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and put it down to rose-tinted spectacles. But I think the real reason is a closed mind and a limited world view.

Doubtless you will come back with more empty noise. Knock yourself out, but it's getting stale. [/quote]

I don't particularly LIKE this guy. But I'm with Rockwall in that the quote seemed to be more along the lines of; "they were the enemy and they were dangerous to us so I took them out." Nothing there about hating or feeling superior to these people because of their race.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 2, 2015 08:44PM)
My biggest problem with Kyle is the admitted enjoyment he got out of killing people. Killing people is sometimes necessary, particularly in war time, but it isn't something I'd consider fun in ANY circumstances.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 2, 2015 09:01PM)
I believe we all know what "Poetic License" is. Having said that maybe he should have said Fulfilling rather than fun.

I doubt that Chris while a gifted maraksman under pressure. I do not believe he was also a gifted writer. If one reads the cover of his book you will notice two additional names. That of Jim DeFelice and Scott McEwen.


While I did not research these two individuals I would imagine they helped Kris write the book. Probably they wrote most of it by putting his thoughts and memories to the page. Just something to consider..
Message: Posted by: balducci (Feb 2, 2015 09:28PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
I believe we all know what "Poetic License" is. Having said that maybe he should have said Fulfilling rather than fun.

I doubt that Chris while a gifted maraksman under pressure. I do not believe he was also a gifted writer. If one reads the cover of his book you will notice two additional names. That of Jim DeFelice and Scott McEwen.

While I did not research these two individuals I would imagine they helped Kris write the book. Probably they wrote most of it by putting his thoughts and memories to the page. Just something to consider.. [/quote]
The first of Kyle's co-authors is a best selling author (at least in the U.S.) with at least 14 books to his credit that made the NYTimes' bestsellers list, and both of Kyle's co-authors have written other books about snipers and other things related to the military. The second works with several military charitable organizations, including the Seal Team Foundation. One of them (Kyle or one of his co-authors) selected the word "fun". And presumably all three signed off on it. So, yeah, something to consider indeed.
Message: Posted by: w_s_anderson (Feb 2, 2015 10:02PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

It is a shame that the US doesn't try the same in the middle east. It has been shown to work in Ireland. If you had sent troops into Ireland it would not have produced peace. All I am saying is that there are more mature ways of the US handing foreign policy than the shoot 'em up redneckery of Chris Kyle and his ilk. [/quote]

As one of Chris' ilk, I'd love to meet TonyB in person! :) There is just something about him and his posts that I find nauseating. Bashing Soldiers for the Foreign Policy they have no control over sure shows his ignorance. Having spent a significant amount of time in the Middle East, I can say with confidence that what worked in his country would not work in that area. It's a nice fantasy though. Landmark, on the other hand, knows how to debate. I don't think he has changed one of my opinions yet, but he has definitely softened a few of them. I would love to spend some time talking to him in person some day. Even though I am usually on the other side of the argument, I have never found him to be a pretentious A.H. like others of his "ilk." ;)
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 2, 2015 10:06PM)
I don't know if I'll make it past page 6. Pathetic.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/SjDd4uG.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 2, 2015 10:12PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

It is a shame that the US doesn't try the same in the middle east. It has been shown to work in Ireland. If you had sent troops into Ireland it would not have produced peace. All I am saying is that there are more mature ways of the US handing foreign policy than the shoot 'em up redneckery of Chris Kyle and his ilk. [/quote]

As one of Chris' ilk, I'd love to meet TonyB in person! :) There is just something about him and his posts that I find nauseating. Bashing Soldiers for the Foreign Policy they have no control over sure shows his ignorance. Having spent a significant amount of time in the Middle East, I can say with confidence that what worked in his country would not work in that area. It's a nice fantasy though. Landmark, on the other hand, knows how to debate. I don't think he has changed one of my opinions yet, but he has definitely softened a few of them. I would love to spend some time talking to him in person some day. Even though I am usually on the other side of the argument, I have never found him to be a pretentious A.H. like others of his "ilk." ;) [/quote]

How can you say it wouldn't work?! Look at all the success Chamberlain had with Hitler.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 2, 2015 10:12PM)
Thanks, W.S. As I've said to you in private, I've always considered you a gentleman.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 10:37PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
My biggest problem with Kyle is the admitted enjoyment he got out of killing people. Killing people is sometimes necessary, particularly in war time, but it isn't something I'd consider fun in ANY circumstances. [/quote]

I agree that the only part I have a problem with is how he describes what he did as fun.

However, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Fortunately, I've never been called on to do what he did. Maybe it's a coping mechanism. Maybe, instead of thinking of the killing of enemy combatants, you're instead thinking of the number of your brothers you're saving. Personally, I don't think he meant, "Gee, this is like video games and it's so much fun!". But who knows, I could be wrong about that.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 2, 2015 10:41PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
My biggest problem with Kyle is the admitted enjoyment he got out of killing people. Killing people is sometimes necessary, particularly in war time, but it isn't something I'd consider fun in ANY circumstances. [/quote]

I sort of agree with you about it not being fun. But as I mentioned it can be fulfilling.


Let me ask you a question. As a lawyer have you ever gotten off a guilty client? Have any of your friends that are lawyers gotten off a guilty party? I am sure the answer is Yes, at least to your friends as I am not sure what part of the law you practiced. Having said that. Ask them if it was not fulfilling getting a guilty party off. They may say yes they may say no. But I would wager that not all would say, "no I hated getting a guilty individual off". Be honest. It is a badge that many lawyers I feel carry proudly that they are good at what they do and proud of it. I am sure you will find many who enjoyed it and enjoying something often relates to having fun. All I am saying is that we are using semantics here. To me I feel Chris was a hero. To some here they believe differently. So be it. Let him rest in peace. He does not have to answer to us.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 10:42PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...

Apparently it really was so hard to do - you just don't get it. You see the words, you even understand their meaning, as separate words. You just don't see what your hero was really like. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and put it down to rose-tinted spectacles. But I think the real reason is a closed mind and a limited world view.

Doubtless you will come back with more empty noise. Knock yourself out, but it's getting stale. [/quote]

Yeah, you can't even defend your position other than some b.s. about, "you just can't understand the words meanings". But thanks for confirming what I had already said. You're just projecting what you want to believe about him into what you read because you're the one that "can understand the words meanings" and that makes it possible for you to "see what he was really like". Yeah, what a load of crap.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 2, 2015 10:48PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
I don't know if I'll make it past page 6. Pathetic.
... [/quote]

It get's worse. The next page he starts talking about growing up in Texas.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 2, 2015 10:51PM)
I'd suggest that getting fulfillment by trying to the best of my ability to provide a client with the right to competent counsel guaranteed to him is a bit different that feeling fulfillment by killing people.

Bad analogy.

But if you must know, I actually felt angry on a few occasions when a prosecutor didn't do his job in court, thus enabling me to get not guilty verdicts. (In fact, I once almost got in serious trouble for punching a client I believed was guilty when he tried to hug me after his acquittal.)

I was fulfilled that I did my job well, but it was hardly enjoyable.

I'm sure Danny, as a former police officer, can confirm that most cops are actually very upset even after a justifiable killing. Taking a life is not "fun."
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 2, 2015 11:11PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks? [/quote]
The refusal of Germans to join the military. [/quote]
This is a joke right? Please tell me you're kidding?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 2, 2015 11:14PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
My biggest problem with Kyle is the admitted enjoyment he got out of killing people. Killing people is sometimes necessary, particularly in war time, but it isn't something I'd consider fun in ANY circumstances. [/quote]
Enjoyment of taking a human life is something I find odd as well. I have known men who got there because they had to. It is not something I would call admirable or would recommend.

This does not make him racist or xenophobic.

It does not make him amoral.

No matter how much people who do not understand want to try to say it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 2, 2015 11:17PM)
Most are upset by any killing. Even justified.

Snipers have a tougher job. People have faces in a scope. Often you study them. They are human. Often cops are heat of the moment. Snipers are planned and it is not easy.

I notice a lot of noise from those who assume they know. All the moral superiority in the world does not hide ignorance.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 2, 2015 11:25PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I'd suggest that getting fulfillment by trying to the best of my ability to provide a client with the right to competent counsel guaranteed to him is a bit different that feeling fulfillment by killing people.

Bad analogy.

But if you must know, I actually felt angry on a few occasions when a prosecutor didn't do his job in court, thus enabling me to get not guilty verdicts. (In fact, I once almost got in serious trouble for punching a client I believed was guilty when he tried to hug me after his acquittal.)

I was fulfilled that I did my job well, but it was hardly enjoyable.

I'm sure Danny, as a former police officer, can confirm that most cops are actually very upset even after a justifiable killing. Taking a life is not "fun." [/quote]


I would have paid to see you punch that guy. :)

An individual such as Chris is definitely not the runoff the mill individual. Not everyone can pick up a rifle and kill someone even it is justified. It is not in their nature yet survival is. Sometimes in order to survive one must take drastic measures to save themselves and their loved ones. But after the first it gets easier and one begins to rationalize. We are talking about an "individual" named Chris Kyle. After one does it for the first time it gets easier and I believe fulfilling due to the fact that you feel you are doing the right thing and saving innocents, and maybe, just maybe, that is why you are here. I would feel that after as many as he did, he has definitely become immune to killing someone and author or co authors what ever you wish to call them have taken advantage of that. I also believe that he enjoyed the publicity and had his ego stroked by many.

I know many who have come back from Nam and said they would do it all over again because they believed it was the right thing to do. And I am not talking just about serving. But that is a different matter entirely. This may sound off the wall. But a victory or a goal reached is always sort of a rush.

I have no idea whether Chris had personal demons or not. But I feel he served his country and is a hero. If he were my father, or my son, I would be proud of his service to our country and God help anyone who defamed him in my presence for that service.

Maybe he enjoyed his work to much. I am not one to judge him now. It is out of our hands. He is gone. I feel because of him many innocents are still here. While some of the worse have been dispatched.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 2, 2015 11:29PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
My biggest problem with Kyle is the admitted enjoyment he got out of killing people. Killing people is sometimes necessary, particularly in war time, but it isn't something I'd consider fun in ANY circumstances. [/quote]

Agreed. But sometimes you need certain guys in certain roles. Its effective management. let each man do what he's good at. Usually one is good at what he enjoys.
We had some loose cannons in our armed forces. They were very effective as a result. It wasn't popular with the public so our government disbanded them. Our military was weakened as a result.
The most effective sniper might just be the guy who hates shooting people the least.
Call it a hunch, but I'm no General.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 2, 2015 11:31PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
I don't know if I'll make it past page 6. Pathetic.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/SjDd4uG.jpg[/img] [/quote]
Sometimes truth is difficult.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 2, 2015 11:40PM)
Sometimes truth is psychopathic.

I guess he found his niche. Sometimes sadists find their calling. Look at Sonny Liston. But a hero? No way.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 2, 2015 11:45PM)
Sadists could be valuable candidates for certain roles, yes. See my post at the top of this page.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 3, 2015 07:16AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
My biggest problem with Kyle is the admitted enjoyment he got out of killing people. Killing people is sometimes necessary, particularly in war time, but it isn't something I'd consider fun in ANY circumstances. [/quote]
At least one person gets it!
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 3, 2015 07:21AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
I believe we all know what "Poetic License" is. Having said that maybe he should have said Fulfilling rather than fun.

I doubt that Chris while a gifted maraksman under pressure. I do not believe he was also a gifted writer. If one reads the cover of his book you will notice two additional names. That of Jim DeFelice and Scott McEwen.


While I did not research these two individuals I would imagine they helped Kris write the book. Probably they wrote most of it by putting his thoughts and memories to the page. Just something to consider.. [/quote]
I have ghosted a number of celebrity and non-celebrity biographies. The ghost writers did not help Kyle write the book, they wrote it in its entirety, and he signed off on it. That's how it works. They would have spend days interviewing him at exhaustive length, and they would have distilled his words, attitudes and turns of phrase onto the page. They would also have toned down his attitudes considerably to make them palatable to the public. Then they would have gone over the book page by page with him. I know this because I have done it. If Kyle's book says he was happy to kill 'savages' we know he signed off on that, and it is how he felt. Not how his ghosts felt (though they may well have agreed with his anti-everyone else attitudes).
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 3, 2015 07:46AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
So why were the Good Friday agreements so heavily predicated on the IRA giving up its cache of arms? Were they referring to baseball bats and bombs? No, the "cache" referred to firearms. What about all of the "knee-capping" incidents that were done with bullets?


[quote] As for your second point, Northern Ireland was not, still is not, an ethnically homogeneous population. There are three distinct ethnic groups up there. They share white skin, but are ethnically different. [/quote]

No need to comment on that. If that's your position, you have no idea what racial and ethnic diversity and tolerance is. Spend some time in the USA to see the experiment of true diversity play out in reality. We're still struggling with it, yes, but we've come farther than any other country. We don't outlaw minarets, head scarves, or any of the other bugaboos that Europe seems to be struggling with.

Chris Kyle, of Gaelic surname descent, fought for those ideals. When he referred to "savages," he was passing judgement on behaviors and personal choices. Were you there and can you say he was wrong? [/quote]
On your first point, the reason the Good Friday Agreement took the guns out of circulation is that you do not want armed paramilitaries roaming the streets, ready to resume violence if they do not get their way. You cannot confiscate bombs in the same way. Looking around my kitchen I could find enough to make a very effective bomb and take out a dozen people, with only a basic knowledge of chemistry.

Bombs were used for the majority of the killings. Guns were used for fund-raising. Armed robberies, etc. As well as a portion of the killing. But they were very tangible, so they were easy to take out of circulation. You cannot take bombs out of circulation unless you are going to ban sugar, fertiliser, parafin, and all the other things we can blow up. A terrorist bomb is not like a US Army bomb, neatly packaged and factory made. That is one of the reasons the Good Friday Agreement focused on guns. They also included grenades and rockets in the arms ban, by the way.

As for your other point, we all applaud the success of merging ethnically diverse groups in America. Although there are wobbles and issues, as a whole that has been very successful, and is great to see. Many areas of Europe (the UK for example) are similarly ethnically diverse with all groups mixing and working together. I think we can all agree that is what we should be aiming for.

My point about Northern Ireland was simply that there are three ethnic groups there, as distinct as Shiite and Sunni. They don't look different, just like a Shiite and a Sunni don't look different. But they came from different parts of Europe, they have different religious and cultural backgrounds, and they are ethnically distinct. Now they get on in harmony. If you accept that Shiite and Sunni are ethnically distinct, you have to concede the same point to the people of Northern Ireland. The country was colonised in the 1600s and that is the result.

Lobowolf, as you rightly pointed out Nevil Chamberlain did not do well talking to Hitler. I am not saying that talking to our 'enemies' always works. It can fail. But it does sometimes work, and should not be dismissed. And passive resistance to Hitler saved many hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives in France, Italy and other European nations.

Finally, Chris Kyle took pleasure in shooting an Iraqi woman, maintaining she was a savage whose soul was worth less than an American soul. Yet he was the one occupying her country, preventing her people having self-determination, and imposing their will by armed force. Who was the savage in reality? From her point of view she was fighting an occupying force who had stolen her country.

I am not condoning what Iraqi people do to American troops. But we have to at least acknowledge that they can justify themselves just as easily as their American opponents.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 3, 2015 08:33AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
I believe we all know what "Poetic License" is. Having said that maybe he should have said Fulfilling rather than fun.

I doubt that Chris while a gifted maraksman under pressure. I do not believe he was also a gifted writer. If one reads the cover of his book you will notice two additional names. That of Jim DeFelice and Scott McEwen.


While I did not research these two individuals I would imagine they helped Kris write the book. Probably they wrote most of it by putting his thoughts and memories to the page. Just something to consider.. [/quote]
I have ghosted a number of celebrity and non-celebrity biographies. The ghost writers did not help Kyle write the book, they wrote it in its entirety, and he signed off on it. That's how it works. They would have spend days interviewing him at exhaustive length, and they would have distilled his words, attitudes and turns of phrase onto the page. They would also have toned down his attitudes considerably to make them palatable to the public. Then they would have gone over the book page by page with him. I know this because I have done it. If Kyle's book says he was happy to kill 'savages' we know he signed off on that, and it is how he felt. Not how his ghosts felt (though they may well have agreed with his anti-everyone else attitudes). [/quote]


While you may have helped write some. I doubt you ever helped such a works as this. Yes he signed off on it but he signed off on it because he was told it was what will work and it will sell. Again you have not addressed poetic license. I am definitely not berating your capabilities as a writer but I doubt you could have done the job the two people have done as it is what they do for a living. You can also direct a home video but that does not make you a Spielberg.

Yea we know he signed off on the book. He is not an editor. When advised by professionals as to what will work you go with the flow. Obviously they were correct because of the sales of said book and now the movie. They just may know something you don't. If Chris tells you to hold the crosshairs of the rifle a foot above the head of your target you should listen to him because HE KNOWS. There are experts in every field. If they say leave the word "fun" in you should probably listen to them. But yea he signed off on it.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 3, 2015 08:56AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
So why were the Good Friday agreements so heavily predicated on the IRA giving up its cache of arms? Were they referring to baseball bats and bombs? No, the "cache" referred to firearms. What about all of the "knee-capping" incidents that were done with bullets?


[quote] As for your second point, Northern Ireland was not, still is not, an ethnically homogeneous population. There are three distinct ethnic groups up there. They share white skin, but are ethnically different. [/quote]

No need to comment on that. If that's your position, you have no idea what racial and ethnic diversity and tolerance is. Spend some time in the USA to see the experiment of true diversity play out in reality. We're still struggling with it, yes, but we've come farther than any other country. We don't outlaw minarets, head scarves, or any of the other bugaboos that Europe seems to be struggling with.

Chris Kyle, of Gaelic surname descent, fought for those ideals. When he referred to "savages," he was passing judgement on behaviors and personal choices. Were you there and can you say he was wrong? [/quote]
On your first point, the reason the Good Friday Agreement took the guns out of circulation is that you do not want armed paramilitaries roaming the streets, ready to resume violence if they do not get their way. You cannot confiscate bombs in the same way. Looking around my kitchen I could find enough to make a very effective bomb and take out a dozen people, with only a basic knowledge of chemistry.

Bombs were used for the majority of the killings. Guns were used for fund-raising. Armed robberies, etc. As well as a portion of the killing. But they were very tangible, so they were easy to take out of circulation. You cannot take bombs out of circulation unless you are going to ban sugar, fertiliser, parafin, and all the other things we can blow up. A terrorist bomb is not like a US Army bomb, neatly packaged and factory made. That is one of the reasons the Good Friday Agreement focused on guns. They also included grenades and rockets in the arms ban, by the way.

As for your other point, we all applaud the success of merging ethnically diverse groups in America. Although there are wobbles and issues, as a whole that has been very successful, and is great to see. Many areas of Europe (the UK for example) are similarly ethnically diverse with all groups mixing and working together. I think we can all agree that is what we should be aiming for.

My point about Northern Ireland was simply that there are three ethnic groups there, as distinct as Shiite and Sunni. They don't look different, just like a Shiite and a Sunni don't look different. But they came from different parts of Europe, they have different religious and cultural backgrounds, and they are ethnically distinct. Now they get on in harmony. If you accept that Shiite and Sunni are ethnically distinct, you have to concede the same point to the people of Northern Ireland. The country was colonised in the 1600s and that is the result.

Lobowolf, as you rightly pointed out Nevil Chamberlain did not do well talking to Hitler. I am not saying that talking to our 'enemies' always works. It can fail. But it does sometimes work, and should not be dismissed. And passive resistance to Hitler saved many hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives in France, Italy and other European nations.

Finally, Chris Kyle took pleasure in shooting an Iraqi woman, maintaining she was a savage whose soul was worth less than an American soul. Yet he was the one occupying her country, preventing her people having self-determination, and imposing their will by armed force. Who was the savage in reality? From her point of view she was fighting an occupying force who had stolen her country.

I am not condoning what Iraqi people do to American troops. But we have to at least acknowledge that they can justify themselves just as easily as their American opponents. [/quote]
It doesn't matter who occupied what. An individual is in a war. He has his sights on a woman approaching his countrymen with a grenade and a baby headed for martyrdom.
He pulled the trigger and saved their lives.
And I hope he saved the baby from its murderous mother. Im not sure.
Kyle himself said he didn't accurately count kills, but counted how many american lives he maybe saving with each kill.
Its war. Its ugly. Men's minds alter themselves to adjust.
Hopefully, war isn't necessary and peaceful solutions prevail, but during war, the enemy must be killed. And all combative parties need men who can and will do the job.
It is what is asked of him. And when he delivers, he must be awarded and celebrated by the people who did the asking.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 3, 2015 09:46AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, acesover wrote:
While you may have helped write some. I doubt you ever helped such a works as this. Yes he signed off on it but he signed off on it because he was told it was what will work and it will sell. Again you have not addressed poetic license. I am definitely not berating your capabilities as a writer but I doubt you could have done the job the two people have done as it is what they do for a living. You can also direct a home video but that does not make you a Spielberg.

Yea we know he signed off on the book. He is not an editor. When advised by professionals as to what will work you go with the flow. Obviously they were correct because of the sales of said book and now the movie. They just may know something you don't. If Chris tells you to hold the crosshairs of the rifle a foot above the head of your target you should listen to him because HE KNOWS. There are experts in every field. If they say leave the word "fun" in you should probably listen to them. But yea he signed off on it. [/quote]
I haven't helped write some. I have fully written many. For four of the big six publishing houses worldwide, for books that have hit the bestseller list. Some of the books have been politically sensitive. In this field I am one of the experts. And I can tell you the word 'fun' did not come from the ghosts. It came from Kyle. And I strongly suspect they toned down his attitudes, as I would have done. That's the way the ghosting process works.

They did not put words in his mouth. What he said about finding killing fun was not a marketing ploy, but what he actually felt.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 3, 2015 09:47AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, acesover wrote:
While you may have helped write some. I doubt you ever helped such a works as this. Yes he signed off on it but he signed off on it because he was told it was what will work and it will sell. Again you have not addressed poetic license. I am definitely not berating your capabilities as a writer but I doubt you could have done the job the two people have done as it is what they do for a living. You can also direct a home video but that does not make you a Spielberg.

Yea we know he signed off on the book. He is not an editor. When advised by professionals as to what will work you go with the flow. Obviously they were correct because of the sales of said book and now the movie. They just may know something you don't. If Chris tells you to hold the crosshairs of the rifle a foot above the head of your target you should listen to him because HE KNOWS. There are experts in every field. If they say leave the word "fun" in you should probably listen to them. But yea he signed off on it. [/quote]
I haven't helped write some. I have fully written many. For four of the big six publishing houses worldwide, for books that have hit the bestseller list. Some of the books have been politically sensitive. In this field I am one of the experts. And I can tell you the word 'fun' did not come from the ghosts. It came from Kyle. And I strongly suspect they toned down his attitudes, as I would have done. That's the way the ghosting process works.

They did not put words in his mouth. What he said about finding killing fun was not a marketing ploy, but what he actually felt. [/quote]
Correct...and?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 3, 2015 09:49AM)
Aces- So which parts of the book should we believe and which parts are just "marketing ploys?"
Message: Posted by: critter (Feb 3, 2015 10:15AM)
Http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%e2%80%99s_war_was_not_my_war/

Just going to leave this here for a different perspective from another sniper
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 3, 2015 10:39AM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an_american_sniper_and_chris_kyle%E2%80%99s_war_was_not_my_war/ [/quote]

I think it was already left like five pages ago.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Feb 3, 2015 10:44AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Aces- So which parts of the book should we believe and which parts are just "marketing ploys?"[/quote]
By and large the nouns and adjectives are believable, but the adjectives and, especially, the adverbs are marketing ploys.

Conjunctions and prepositions exhibit no discernible pattern.

Articles haven't been studied enough to form any definite conclusions, but I'd be wary, especially of indefinite articles.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 3, 2015 11:08AM)
Thank you for the grammar school flashback.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 3, 2015 11:17AM)
TonyB2009 said: They did not put words in his mouth. What he said about finding killing fun was not a marketing ploy, but what he actually felt.

I have to ask. You know this HOW? Seems like you should write your own book about Chris as you know so much about him and his feelings. Did you learn all of this from talking to him or reading the book? Your reasoning make me smile. Believe what you want. We live in a "FREE" country here in the United States because of men like Chris. Again you believe what you want.

I am just curious. What books of yours were on the best seller list? I am sure others here would also like to know. I would be very interested in reading some of your works.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 3, 2015 11:23AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Aces- So which parts of the book should we believe and which parts are just "marketing ploys?" [/quote]

The marketing ploy does not make it a lie. So one should believe what sounds believable. If they substitute the word fun for fulfilling it does not make the statement a lie. It may change your interpretation of it but it does not make it a lie. So again in answering your question. Believe what sounds plausible. I do not believe it is a work of fiction. I do imagine as I have stated before that poetic license is definitely a factor in just about any nonfiction novel.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 3, 2015 11:23AM)
Anyone think the government had a say in the book? I have no clue just asking.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Feb 3, 2015 12:30PM)
Does anyone actually believe he was on the roof of the Superdome and killed, what was it, 30 looters?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 3, 2015 01:20PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Anyone think the government had a say in the book? I have no clue just asking. [/quote]

Not as far out a comment as some may think. We've learned a whole lot about the making of the film Zero Dark Thirty, which it turns out, despite prior denials, was done with CIA invovelment.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/may/07/zero-dark-thirty-cia-memo
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 3, 2015 01:27PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, acesover wrote:
TonyB2009 said: They did not put words in his mouth. What he said about finding killing fun was not a marketing ploy, but what he actually felt.

I have to ask. You know this HOW? Seems like you should write your own book about Chris as you know so much about him and his feelings. Did you learn all of this from talking to him or reading the book? Your reasoning make me smile. Believe what you want. We live in a "FREE" country here in the United States because of men like Chris. Again you believe what you want.

I am just curious. What books of yours were on the best seller list? I am sure others here would also like to know. I would be very interested in reading some of your works. [/quote]
I brought up the point simply because you tried to distance Kyle from his own words, by saying they were a marketing ploy, and inserted in the book the ghosts. I am telling you, as a ghost myself, that they were not. There is no distancing him from his words.

As for my books, google my name and you will find those that were published under my name. The ones I ghosted will not show up, because the ghost is not meant to be known. You will find my name in the acknowledgements, not on the front cover. None of them have been bestsellers in the USA, but they have been in Ireland, the UK, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia. That will do me for the moment.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 3, 2015 01:33PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, acesover wrote:
TonyB2009 said: They did not put words in his mouth. What he said about finding killing fun was not a marketing ploy, but what he actually felt.

I have to ask. You know this HOW? Seems like you should write your own book about Chris as you know so much about him and his feelings. Did you learn all of this from talking to him or reading the book? Your reasoning make me smile. Believe what you want. We live in a "FREE" country here in the United States because of men like Chris. Again you believe what you want.

I am just curious. What books of yours were on the best seller list? I am sure others here would also like to know. I would be very interested in reading some of your works. [/quote]

I have one of Tony's books; you can borrow it after I read it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 3, 2015 01:38PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Anyone think the government had a say in the book? I have no clue just asking. [/quote]

Not as far out a comment as some may think. We've learned a whole lot about the making of the film Zero Dark Thirty, which it turns out, despite prior denials, was done with CIA invovelment.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/may/07/zero-dark-thirty-cia-memo [/quote]

Kind of my point.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 3, 2015 01:38PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Does anyone actually believe he was on the roof of the Superdome and killed, what was it, 30 looters? [/quote]

Didn't we cover this already?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 3, 2015 02:33PM)
Several times, I think, Danny.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Feb 3, 2015 04:04PM)
To me, Chris Kyle did a tough task he was ordered to do. A careful read of his book leaves me with the definite opinion he very carefully followed ROE, and when in doubt, did not engage. It is very disheartening to see posts that choose to take parts of the book without admitting to the whole of the book, and then put their personal those parts. My whole life I have been told that to be really, really good at anything, one needs to enjoy doing it. Now this is being used against a man who can no longer defend what he meant.

Like the old west towns that lauded the sheriff who cleaned up the town only to give him a one-way ticket out when he was finished, we let our military take out the trash and then sit on our protected asses pontificating about how evil they were. The day will come soon, I feel, when you will be casting about for someone else with the stones to save you and yours.

Vietnam was bad, but it never made me puke. Some of the comments herein, come much closer. I hate that Chris Kyle was murdered. I am glad, however, that he is not here to read some of the insults...

Thank you, thank you, to every veteran! Whether or not you fought, just your willingness to stand up makes you a hero!
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Feb 3, 2015 04:05PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
To me, Chris Kyle did a tough task he was ordered to do. A careful read of his book leaves me with the definite opinion he very carefully followed ROE, and when in doubt, did not engage. It is very disheartening to see posts that choose to take parts of the book without admitting to the whole of the book, and then put their personal slant on those parts. My whole life I have been told that to be really, really good at anything, one needs to enjoy doing it. Now this is being used against a man who can no longer defend what he meant.

Like the old west towns that lauded the sheriff who cleaned up the town only to give him a one-way ticket out when he was finished, we let our military take out the trash and then sit on our protected asses pontificating about how evil they were. The day will come soon, I feel, when you will be casting about for someone else with the stones to save you and yours.

Vietnam was bad, but it never made me puke. Some of the comments herein, come much closer. I hate that Chris Kyle was murdered. I am glad, however, that he is not here to read some of the insults...

Thank you, thank you, to every veteran! Whether or not you fought, just your willingness to stand up makes you a hero! [/quote]
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 3, 2015 04:18PM)
Thank you. And you're welcome.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 3, 2015 05:50PM)
Not every veteran agrees with Chris. Each has their own viewpoint, and each is as valid as the last as they are the life experiences. Thanks to one and all. Hopefully we are past the name calling.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Feb 3, 2015 06:02PM)
Maybe a little off topic, but I came across the bit below the other day and it reminded me of a portion of this thread.

Some man (do you know who without searching?) once said:

"We read of killing one hundred thousand men in a day. We read about it and we rejoiced in it - if it was the other fellows who were killed. We were fed on flesh and drank blood. Even down to the prattling babe. I need not tell you how many upright, honorable young boys have come into this court charged with murder, some saved and some sent to their death, boys who fought in this war and learned to place a cheap value on human life. You know it and I know it. These boys were brought up in it. The tales of death were in their homes, their playgrounds, their schools; they were in the newspapers that they read; it was a part of the common frenzy - what was a life? It was nothing. It was the least sacred thing in existence and these boys were trained to this cruelty."

"No one needs to tell me that crime has no cause. It has as definite a cause as any other disease, and I know that out of the hatred and bitterness of the [war] crime increased as America had never seen before ... I know it has followed every war; and I know it has influenced these boys so that life was not the same to them as it would have been if the world had not made red with blood. I protest against the crimes and mistakes of society being visited upon them. All of us have a share in it. I have mine. I cannot tell and I shall never know how many words of mine might have given birth to cruelty in place of love and kindness and charity."
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 3, 2015 06:08PM)
Sounds like Clarence Darrow defending Leopold and Loeb?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Feb 3, 2015 06:21PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, landmark wrote:

Sounds like Clarence Darrow defending Leopold and Loeb? [/quote]
You got it. I came across something in the novel 'Trick Baby' last night that led me to CD's summation.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 3, 2015 06:30PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Not every veteran agrees with Chris. Each has their own viewpoint, and each is as valid as the last as they are the life experiences. Thanks to one and all. Hopefully we are past the name calling. [/quote]

That would be nice but I really doubt that we are.

The defamation of Chris Kyle here and elsewhere reminds me of another sad event in American History. The spitting on soldiers as they returned from the Vietnam war. And in large part by the same crowd.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 3, 2015 07:24PM)
Balducci, that Clarence Durrow quote was powerful, and beautifully written. Thanks for sharing it.
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
My whole life I have been told that to be really, really good at anything, one needs to enjoy doing it. Now this is being used against a man who can no longer defend what he meant. [/quote]
This is the nub of the problem. Kyle was obviously good at killing people. He admits to enjoying it. You say that he needed to have enjoyed killing people to be good at killing people. What does that say about his moral character? He is good at killing people because he enjoys killing people - that could be said of Ted Bundy and many others.

The more I read of Kyle the more it strikes me that the military took a natural killer and gave him a role where he could fulfill his unusual urges without going to the chair. I hate to reach that conclusion about someone, but it seems to be one valid reading of the facts.

I can understand how others see this differently - and to be honest I wouldn't go that far either. But I fail to see how anyone can regard him as a hero. There was nothing heoric in his deeds.

Rockwall, no one is defaming Kyle, because he is dead and you cannot defame the dead. Quaint little point of law there. And to suggest I spat on soldiers returning from Vietnam is ridiculous. I was a child, and in Europe. And I wouldn't spit on soldiers, despite having little respect for what they do. As for the others who find Kyle at least a morally ambiguous character, I find it equally ridiculous to think they spat at soldiers. Try to rein in your bile.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 3, 2015 07:38PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
My whole life I have been told that to be really, really good at anything, one needs to enjoy doing it.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that whoever has been telling you this is either lying or mistaken.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Feb 3, 2015 07:49PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:
As one of Chris' ilk, I'd love to meet TonyB in person! :) There is just something about him and his posts that I find nauseating. Bashing Soldiers for the Foreign Policy they have no control over sure shows his ignorance. Having spent a significant amount of time in the Middle East, I can say with confidence that what worked in his country would not work in that area. It's a nice fantasy though.

Landmark, on the other hand, knows how to debate. I don't think he has changed one of my opinions yet, but he has definitely softened a few of them. I would love to spend some time talking to him in person some day. Even though I am usually on the other side of the argument, I have never found him to be a pretentious A.H. like others of his "ilk." ;) [/quote]

I have always found Landmark's comments to be respectful and intelligent.
I don't always agree with his remarks, but for the most part I do.

Like Anderson, I too served as part of several Middle Eastern Ops. I was closer
to the natives thus, my heart was softened to the locals. Savages is an abhorrent
term in this case.

Empathy is much more difficult from behind the scope at long range. I remain
friends with a few Afghanis and Iraqi Chaldeans whom never picked up a weapon.

I don't agree with lots of Kyle's sentiments, but he remains a Brother whom served
with honour. He earned the respect for his achievements on the battlefield.
Civilian life is another matter altogether.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 3, 2015 08:00PM)
I always find Devious's comments to be respectful, intelligent, and well-reasoned.

But I like him anyway.
Message: Posted by: w_s_anderson (Feb 3, 2015 09:19PM)
TonyB says he is a subject matter expert when it comes to Ghost Writing. Well, here is where I think he is F.O.S.

I received a lot of media attention after my last tour of duty. AGT, National News, ect.... I was then contacted by a company out of Virginia who was interested in my story. They specialized in bringing stories from Soldiers to the public eye. I was asked to write a "treatment" on my years of service, with a heavy focus on my tours in Afghanistan and Iraq and the magic I performed while there. I submitted the story and was contacted again about two weeks later and they emailed back another copy of what I had written, only it was spruced up quite a bit. The story was the same, but it was certainly much more dramatic. The gentleman who contacted me said if we got the green light to move forward with a book, he would be assigned as my ghost writer and was there to take my story and make sure it "bounced off the pages." That was at least my experience with those who do what TonyB does.

While I could be wrong, I have no doubt in my mind that is probably what happened with Chris Kyle. But of course since TonyB has never done that, it would be impossible for anyone else to even consider doing such a thing. When it comes to writing TonyB and his "ilk" all have the integrity of a Saint....or at least the atheist's version of what a Saint is. ;)
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 3, 2015 11:05PM)
Well said W.S.

For some reason it seems that Tony has an axe to grind either with Chris or The United States or both. I cannot understand his reasoning as he has no dog in this fight being from and residing in Ireland.

I cannot figure out why this American Hero (Chris Kyle) bothers him so much. Maybe Tony just likes to have the spotlight on himself and feels this accomplishes that longing. If so I feel sorry for him. However I feel worse for what he is saying about Chris.

It seems that his biggest peeve is the use of the words fun and enjoy. Would Tony be willing to bet his life that Chris really uttered those words? Or better yet bet the lives of his loved ones that Chris said that. Before you answer Tony, remember that fate has no mercy and sometimes when one loses such a wager he ends up paying the bet. It is easy to say, "I am sure" when it costs you nothing but words. But when those words discredit someone else and you lose nothing, those words mean nothing.

Leaving early tomorrow morning for A.C. to play some Poker. Will be gone for a few days. Not sure how many. That is the good news. The bad news is I will be back. :)
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 3, 2015 11:08PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, balducci wrote:
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, landmark wrote:

Sounds like Clarence Darrow defending Leopold and Loeb? [/quote]
You got it. I came across something in the novel 'Trick Baby' last night that led me to CD's summation. [/quote]
IIRC, the closing remarks for the defense took many, many hours and Darrow did it without notes. Those were the days when people were justly called orators.
Message: Posted by: AllAboutMagic (Feb 3, 2015 11:14PM)
After seeing what ISIS did to that Jordanian pilot today, I think I would rather enjoy looking at a few of those MF's through the crosshairs of a scope. But according to some, those savages are the kind of people you could/should reason with. How much do you want to bet that if offered the chance to go try and negotiate a peace deal with ISIS, Tony would swiftly decline. Or he would demand protection from those he has no respect for. I am sure ISIS would have far less respect for you than you have for the Soldiers who would stand up and protect you in that situation. Your stage name sums you up pretty good Mr. Bologna.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 3, 2015 11:18PM)
[quote]Leaving early tomorrow morning for A.C. to play some Poker. Will be gone for a few days. Not sure how many. That is the good news. The bad news is I will be back.[/quote]
Going there in a $50,000 Caddy and returning in a $500,000 bus? :)
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 4, 2015 12:15AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, Devious wrote:
...
Like Anderson, I too served as part of several Middle Eastern Ops. I was closer
to the natives thus, my heart was softened to the locals. Savages is an abhorrent
term in this case.
... [/quote]

First off, let me say that I respect you tremendously Devious.

I hope you haven't bought the propaganda that Chris Kyle called the Iraqi's savages. He didn't. He was calling the enemy that. He may well have made friends with the locals himself, I don't know. But he was obviously just as outraged by innocent Iraqi's being killed by suicide bombers as he was at other horrors he saw.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 4, 2015 07:51AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:
TonyB says he is a subject matter expert when it comes to Ghost Writing. Well, here is where I think he is F.O.S.

I received a lot of media attention after my last tour of duty. AGT, National News, ect.... I was then contacted by a company out of Virginia who was interested in my story. They specialized in bringing stories from Soldiers to the public eye. I was asked to write a "treatment" on my years of service, with a heavy focus on my tours in Afghanistan and Iraq and the magic I performed while there. I submitted the story and was contacted again about two weeks later and they emailed back another copy of what I had written, only it was spruced up quite a bit. The story was the same, but it was certainly much more dramatic. The gentleman who contacted me said if we got the green light to move forward with a book, he would be assigned as my ghost writer and was there to take my story and make sure it "bounced off the pages." That was at least my experience with those who do what TonyB does.

While I could be wrong, I have no doubt in my mind that is probably what happened with Chris Kyle. But of course since TonyB has never done that, it would be impossible for anyone else to even consider doing such a thing. When it comes to writing TonyB and his "ilk" all have the integrity of a Saint....or at least the atheist's version of what a Saint is. ;) [/quote]
I assume you never went ahead with the publication? If you had you would have seen how the process pans out. The ghost brings your story alive on the page, because most people tell their own story dully. But the ghost doesn't put words in your mouth.

If Kyle said that he enjoys killing people, that came from him. There is no dancing around that.

A ghost will tone down certain things. He will tone down racism and homophobia, extreme left or right wing views, etc. Misogyny. Anything that would affect book sales and make the 'author' of the book come across as a jerk. But that doesn't mean he tones down the story. If anything he will heighten the action, tone down the attitude. That is the job. As you would have seen had you continued to work with the ghost. Did he make up anything in what he sent back to you? Or did he just amplify your story?

Acesover, Chris Kyle is not an 'American Hero'. He shot people at a distance from hiding. Snipers are unfortunately a necessary part of a war, but they are not heroes. America has plenty of genuine heroes without idolising killing machines like Kyle. I have no axe to grind against America, which I consider to be a great country.

Would I bet my life on Kyle having said he enjoys killing? It is a meaningless question. I know he said those words, because they are in his book, and I am intimately familiar with how these books are prepared. If they were not his words, slipped in by an unscrupulous publisher as some would like to think, then he could have injuncted the book before publication, or sued for defamation afterwards. Of course, he didn't.

Rockwall, Christ Kyle had a full book to express his sympathy for the people of the land he was occupying. It is a bit late for you to add those views on his behalf now.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 4, 2015 07:53AM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, AllAboutMagic wrote:
After seeing what ISIS did to that Jordanian pilot today, I think I would rather enjoy looking at a few of those MF's through the crosshairs of a scope. But according to some, those savages are the kind of people you could/should reason with. How much do you want to bet that if offered the chance to go try and negotiate a peace deal with ISIS, Tony would swiftly decline. Or he would demand protection from those he has no respect for. I am sure ISIS would have far less respect for you than you have for the Soldiers who would stand up and protect you in that situation. Your stage name sums you up pretty good Mr. Bologna. [/quote]
I could take this a bit more seriously if you had bothered to check on my actual stage name!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 4, 2015 09:31AM)
Yea you missed the point totally lol.

Tony you can not speak definitively on his words or not. You sound silly. Having participated on one project in no way makes you an expert on this book.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 4, 2015 10:25AM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea you missed the point totally lol.

Tony you can not speak definitively on his words or not. You sound silly. Having participated on one project in no way makes you an expert on this book. [/quote]
Danny, I cannot speak definitively on this exact issue, but neither can the others who maintain that these were not Kyle's words. All I can speak to is the ghosting process, after participating in six, not one, projects. Knowing how the process works gives me an insight into what is what on a printed page. Most of the others - aside from William Anderson - are outside the process. I have been inside the process.

A statement that he enjoyed killing in the opening chapter could only have come from Kyle, with his approval for its appearance in the book. If the book had been published posthumously then some interference could have crept in. But it wasn't; it came out in his lifetime with his full approval. Those are HIS words. Don't shoot the messenger.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 4, 2015 10:39AM)
You are not the messenger. You are a guy who thinks he knows which is useless.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 4, 2015 03:05PM)
Danny, if you know something about the ghost-writing business, please share. Otherwise you are just an uninformed blow-hard.

William Anderson at least based his opinion on direct knowledge, which I can respect.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 4, 2015 03:36PM)
You have no direct knowledge of this process. So respecting your opinion of it is then useless and by your own standards makes you nothing more than an uninformed blowhard. Which we knew.

As for ghost writing yea I spent months with one interviewing me for a project about a friend of mine. I have not written it but dealt with them so maybe getting your facts straight should be more of a priority for you. Being a writer and all.

You are so blinded by ideology it is almost comical.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 4, 2015 04:00PM)
Danny, you are more full of s//t than usual, which is saying something. No direct knowledge of this process - I do it for a living. Unlike you.

There are few more blind than a closed-minded patriot.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 4, 2015 04:07PM)
Have you not noticed that I have not defended the man? Go back and read. Then take out your ideology and just read.

You did not write THIS PROJECT so you have no clue about the specifics. Just like those of us who also did not write it. I am full of it and you speak in absolutes as if you were there. It is your own bs you are smelling. And as usual it is rampant.

You were already called on xenophobic and the other stuff. Now you know what was and wasn't poetic license. Laughable. Now you think somehow I am defending the man when indeed I did no such thing.

Seems as if facts don't really matter much to you. I hope you write fiction.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 4, 2015 04:10PM)
Tony has a tendency to universalize his own experiences.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 4, 2015 04:12PM)
I have noticed this. Then he makes accusations when others don't share that and can't imagine why one would disagree.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 4, 2015 04:42PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Tony has a tendency to universalize his own experiences. [/quote]

Kinda like second amendment rights for the planet, eh?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 4, 2015 04:47PM)
Actually, not very much like that at all.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 4, 2015 04:52PM)
Yea miss quoting never helps but go on John.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 4, 2015 05:02PM)
Not misquoting, Danny. But enjoy your drive-by cheap shots.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Feb 4, 2015 05:20PM)
American Sniper Challenge Coin, I've managed to hang on to a few of the coins I've come across.
There is a quasi-underground project to support deployed snipers via raffles, fund raising,
and donations. Challenge Coins represent a certain aspect of that goal.

[img]http://8541tactical.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/20140110-113236-e1389376344456.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 4, 2015 05:27PM)
I want one of those!
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 4, 2015 06:03PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
You did not write THIS PROJECT so you have no clue about the specifics. Just like those of us who also did not write it.
[/quote]
I am so sorry Danny. I didn't realize that if we weren't among the three people involved in the writing of this book, we couldn't discuss the specifics.
Funny how this objection doesn't apply to the people whom you agree with.

I have noticed that before about a certain class of American. Your First Amendment only applies to pro-Yankee sentiments.
Message: Posted by: w_s_anderson (Feb 4, 2015 06:38PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
I assume you never went ahead with the publication? If you had you would have seen how the process pans out. The ghost brings your story alive on the page, because most people tell their own story dully. But the ghost doesn't put words in your mouth.
[/quote]

Your assumption is correct. The publication never went forward, in fact, the company that tried to do it no longer exists. (Veterans Entertainment Group) I will say though that the rewrite that was sent back to me definitely had "words put in my mouth."
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 4, 2015 06:52PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, Devious wrote:
American Sniper Challenge Coin, I've managed to hang on to a few of the coins I've come across.
There is a quasi-underground project to support deployed snipers via raffles, fund raising,
and donations. Challenge Coins represent a certain aspect of that goal.

[img]http://8541tactical.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/20140110-113236-e1389376344456.jpg[/img] [/quote]

Pretty frickin awesome!
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 4, 2015 06:56PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
I assume you never went ahead with the publication? If you had you would have seen how the process pans out. The ghost brings your story alive on the page, because most people tell their own story dully. But the ghost doesn't put words in your mouth.
[/quote]

Your assumption is correct. The publication never went forward, in fact, the company that tried to do it no longer exists. (Veterans Entertainment Group) I will say though that the rewrite that was sent back to me definitely had "words put in my mouth." [/quote]
You would have had ample opportunity to take those words out! And he shouldn't have put them in. The first book I ghosted the publisher brought in a second ghost to punch things up a bit, and the guy whose story we were telling hit the roof, because the second ghost added her own stuff to his story. In the end my version was the one published, because what the subject of the book wants is what goes into the book.

It's a shame yours never went ahead, because I think there would have been a good book in your experiences, from what I have seen on your website.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 4, 2015 07:11PM)
I wonder when many here became the thought police. You aren't a hero unless your 'thoughts' align with mine. Regardless of what you did, if I find something objectionable about how you 'felt' about what you were doing or if you're not quite PC enough for me, sorry, you're no longer a hero, you're a dirtbag. What's more objectionable, someone who believes in what they are doing and does the best he can at it or someone who believes what they are doing is wrong and 'evil' but does it anyway.

I see a great Monty Python skit here. Sir, thank you for saving the school children from the terrorists that held them hostage. But before we thank you, we need to ask you a few questions. Did you enjoy saving them? Did you enjoy killing the terrorists? How did you 'feel' about the terrorists? Were they just misunderstood or did you think they were animals?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 4, 2015 10:47PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
You did not write THIS PROJECT so you have no clue about the specifics. Just like those of us who also did not write it.
[/quote]
I am so sorry Danny. I didn't realize that if we weren't among the three people involved in the writing of this book, we couldn't discuss the specifics.
Funny how this objection doesn't apply to the people whom you agree with.

I have noticed that before about a certain class of American. Your First Amendment only applies to pro-Yankee sentiments. [/quote]


Try reading please. I said NOBODY knows. Not either side.

I also have not expressed an opinion either way on Chris.

Just read.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Feb 4, 2015 11:16PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
I assume you never went ahead with the publication? If you had you would have seen how the process pans out. The ghost brings your story alive on the page, because most people tell their own story dully. But the ghost doesn't put words in your mouth.
[/quote]

Your assumption is correct. The publication never went forward, in fact, the company that tried to do it no longer exists. (Veterans Entertainment Group) I will say though that the rewrite that was sent back to me definitely had "words put in my mouth." [/quote]
I was sort of wondering what the group was. The way you originally described it, it did not sound like a reputable publishing house to me. It sounded rather like one of the predatory publishing houses that have been in the news of late, that mainly target academics. Do you know if Veterans Entertainment Group ever actually published any of the stories from soldiers? And how they made their money?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Feb 4, 2015 11:22PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, rockwall wrote:

What's more objectionable, someone who believes in what they are doing and does the best he can at it or someone who believes what they are doing is wrong and 'evil' but does it anyway.
[/quote]
I think there is no one size fits all answer to that question. An accomplished ISIS terrorist falls into the first category, for instance. So does a Priest of any religion who lives an honourable life, doing good works.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 4, 2015 11:26PM)
[quote]
On Feb 3, 2015, rockwall wrote:

The defamation of Chris Kyle here and elsewhere reminds me of another sad event in American History. The spitting on soldiers as they returned from the Vietnam war. And in large part by the same crowd.

[/quote]

The stories of soldiers being spat on by war protestors are myths and urban legend.

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1276799/posts

http://www.amazon.com/The-Spitting-Image-Memory-Vietnam/dp/0814751474
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 4, 2015 11:28PM)
Without clicking on the links I ask seriously? I had always heard those and assumed it happened. Interesting. I will have to investigate that.

Thank you. Something I never would have thought to investigate.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 5, 2015 12:12AM)
I can only speak from personal experience. In 1969, while I was in the service and on leave, I went to visit my brother in Atlanta where he was going to college at Oglethorpe.

My brother was a full blown hippie at the time. And I was in full uniform when we took a walk through downtown Atlanta. We were quite a sight, I guess.

When we walked through one area, I DID get spit on by anti-war protesters who chanted "baby killer" at me.

But when we walked through the business district, it was my brother who got dirty looks from a lot of people who called him a "dirty hippie draft dodger." And he was spit on as well.

There was a lot of spitting going on back then.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2015 12:29AM)
Yes I have heard similar accounts Bob. And I am sorry that happened not only to you but to your brother. It is a great illustration of it being wrong on both accounts.

Not Americas first hour in either case.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 5, 2015 12:30AM)
So perhaps it's the claim that the spitting on soldiers was an urban legend was actually itself the urban legend.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 5, 2015 12:33AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I can only speak from personal experience. In 1969, while I was in the service and on leave, I went to visit my brother in Atlanta where he was going to college at Oglethorpe.

My brother was a full blown hippie at the time. And I was in full uniform when we took a walk through downtown Atlanta. We were quite a sight, I guess.

When we walked through one area, I DID get spit on by anti-war protesters who chanted "baby killer" at me.

But when we walked through the business district, it was my brother who got dirty looks from a lot of people who called him a "dirty hippie draft dodger." And he was spit on as well.

There was a lot of spitting going on back then. [/quote]

You must be misremembering, Bob. According to Payne's source, "The truth is that nobody spat on Vietnam veterans."
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 5, 2015 01:23AM)
Nobody ever asked me, or I would have told them they were wrong. Why do people think that we'd wear civilian clothes as much as possible in the States?

The Army and Marine guys had it worse. I was Navy and actually wondered why they'd want to spit on a sailor, given our cool bell-bottoms and salty swaggers. :eek:
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 5, 2015 01:32AM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yes I have heard similar accounts Bob. And I am sorry that happened not only to you but to your brother. It is a great illustration of it being wrong on both accounts.

Not Americas first hour in either case. [/quote]

That was the irony of it. We were brothers then, and we're brothers still. But people didn't see that, they just saw what we were wearing.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Feb 5, 2015 05:20AM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, rockwall wrote:
I wonder when many here became the thought police. You aren't a hero unless your 'thoughts' align with mine. Regardless of what you did, if I find something objectionable about how you 'felt' about what you were doing or if you're not quite PC enough for me, sorry, you're no longer a hero, you're a dirtbag. What's more objectionable, someone who believes in what they are doing and does the best he can at it or someone who believes what they are doing is wrong and 'evil' but does it anyway.

I see a great Monty Python skit here. Sir, thank you for saving the school children from the terrorists that held them hostage. But before we thank you, we need to ask you a few questions. Did you enjoy saving them? Did you enjoy killing the terrorists? How did you 'feel' about the terrorists? Were they just misunderstood or did you think they were animals? [/quote]

I'm sorry, I have trouble equating a person who said it was "fun to kill" with heroism. If he did this without offical sanction, he'd be considered a serial killer.
Message: Posted by: Mystification (Feb 5, 2015 07:20AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, rockwall wrote:
I wonder when many here became the thought police. You aren't a hero unless your 'thoughts' align with mine. Regardless of what you did, if I find something objectionable about how you 'felt' about what you were doing or if you're not quite PC enough for me, sorry, you're no longer a hero, you're a dirtbag. What's more objectionable, someone who believes in what they are doing and does the best he can at it or someone who believes what they are doing is wrong and 'evil' but does it anyway.

I see a great Monty Python skit here. Sir, thank you for saving the school children from the terrorists that held them hostage. But before we thank you, we need to ask you a few questions. Did you enjoy saving them? Did you enjoy killing the terrorists? How did you 'feel' about the terrorists? Were they just misunderstood or did you think they were animals? [/quote]

I'm sorry, I have trouble equating a person who said it was "fun to kill" with heroism. If he did this without offical sanction, he'd be considered a serial killer. [/quote]

It is a mindset some of them developed to deal with the fact that their job required them to kill people.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 5, 2015 08:26AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, ed rhodes wrote:
...

I'm sorry, I have trouble equating a person who said it was "fun to kill" with heroism. If he did this without offical sanction, he'd be considered a serial killer. [/quote]

I'm sorry, you probably don't realize that when you put quotes around something like, "fun to kill", that generally means you are quoting the guys exact words. I think you're going to have a bit of trouble finding that exact quote.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 5, 2015 08:27AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, rockwall wrote:
I wonder when many here became the thought police. You aren't a hero unless your 'thoughts' align with mine. Regardless of what you did, if I find something objectionable about how you 'felt' about what you were doing or if you're not quite PC enough for me, sorry, you're no longer a hero, you're a dirtbag. What's more objectionable, someone who believes in what they are doing and does the best he can at it or someone who believes what they are doing is wrong and 'evil' but does it anyway.

I see a great Monty Python skit here. Sir, thank you for saving the school children from the terrorists that held them hostage. But before we thank you, we need to ask you a few questions. Did you enjoy saving them? Did you enjoy killing the terrorists? How did you 'feel' about the terrorists? Were they just misunderstood or did you think they were animals? [/quote]

I'm sorry, I have trouble equating a person who said it was "fun to kill" with heroism. If he did this without offical sanction, he'd be considered a serial killer. [/quote]
So would every American Soldier in world history who hsd multiple kills. I don't see your point.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 5, 2015 09:41AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, rockwall wrote:
I wonder when many here became the thought police. You aren't a hero unless your 'thoughts' align with mine. Regardless of what you did, if I find something objectionable about how you 'felt' about what you were doing or if you're not quite PC enough for me, sorry, you're no longer a hero, you're a dirtbag. What's more objectionable, someone who believes in what they are doing and does the best he can at it or someone who believes what they are doing is wrong and 'evil' but does it anyway.

I see a great Monty Python skit here. Sir, thank you for saving the school children from the terrorists that held them hostage. But before we thank you, we need to ask you a few questions. Did you enjoy saving them? Did you enjoy killing the terrorists? How did you 'feel' about the terrorists? Were they just misunderstood or did you think they were animals? [/quote]

I'm sorry, I have trouble equating a person who said it was "fun to kill" with heroism. If he did this without offical sanction, he'd be considered a serial killer. [/quote]

If firemen ran into houses that weren't burning while carrying axes on their off-hours, they'd be considered trespassers at best.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2015 09:47AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On Feb 3, 2015, rockwall wrote:

The defamation of Chris Kyle here and elsewhere reminds me of another sad event in American History. The spitting on soldiers as they returned from the Vietnam war. And in large part by the same crowd.

[/quote]

The stories of soldiers being spat on by war protestors are myths and urban legend.

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1276799/posts

http://www.amazon.com/The-Spitting-Image-Memory-Vietnam/dp/0814751474 [/quote]


Turns out a whole lot of people were spit at. Calling it an urban legend by a guy who didn't want to believe the story in the first place seems a stretch.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 5, 2015 09:50AM)
Are you saying Payne is...[i].a denier?![/i]
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Feb 5, 2015 09:51AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Why do people think that we'd wear civilian clothes as much as possible in the States?[/quote]
Mufti.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 5, 2015 09:55AM)
From the 'Urban Legend Expert' in one of Payne's links:

"Our first step forward is to recognize that we are not a society that disrespects the sacrifices of our servicemembers. We should ignore anyone who tries to tell us otherwise."

I guess it's time to ignore half the posters to this thread.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 5, 2015 10:16AM)
Why not? You're ignoring the only person who's ghost-written a book ;)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2015 10:26AM)
No we are not but nice try.

We are simply saying that he did not ghost white the book in question and therefore can not speak as if it he knows for absolute fact what did or did not happen. He has an opinion that is slightly more informed than one who has not ghost written a book.

There John you are supposedly such a fan of facts those are the facts. Keep ignoring them and miss quote as you normally do.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 5, 2015 10:33AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
No we are not but nice try.

We are simply saying that he did not ghost white the book in question and therefore can not speak as if it he knows for absolute fact what did or did not happen. He has an opinion that is slightly more informed than one who has not ghost written a book.

There John you are supposedly such a fan of facts those are the facts. Keep ignoring them and miss quote as you normally do. [/quote]

If that's what you're saying, then why aren't you rejecting everybody's comments. Nobody on this forum wrote the book in question. Come on. What are you really saying?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2015 10:45AM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Have you not noticed that I have not defended the man? Go back and read. Then take out your ideology and just read.

You did not write THIS PROJECT so you have no clue about the specifics. Just like those of us who also did not write it. I am full of it and you speak in absolutes as if you were there. It is your own bs you are smelling. And as usual it is rampant.

You were already called on xenophobic and the other stuff. Now you know what was and wasn't poetic license. Laughable. Now you think somehow I am defending the man when indeed I did no such thing.

Seems as if facts don't really matter much to you. I hope you write fiction. [/quote]

Here John I said it right here. Since comprehension seems to be a problem for you I will have to take that into account. Unless of course you are just playing GOTCHA again as usual.

Also are you not the one constantly saying you do not have to say you disagree with everyone you disagree with when we ask you this EXACT same question? You feel it is enough just not to agree with them. So why is the standard now so different? Gotcha rules?

I am saying I am tired of people who want to push an agenda at any cost and just use lies to do it and hope if they tell them enough they become the truth. Yep like BOTH sides do.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Feb 5, 2015 10:59AM)
Danny, you have made a serious effort to remain neutral about the Chris Kyle facts. You have targeted a couple of individuals, but I acknowledge that you have not explicitly endorsed any position about the content of the book.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 5, 2015 10:59AM)
Re: spitting. While some anti-war protesters may have spit at soldiers, the fact that the US Government spits on veterans everyday gets ignored. From denying PTSD and Agent Orange related disabilities to sending out soldiers without proper body armor; from putting women soldiers at risk of rape by their superiors to cutting food stamps. The people that pro- military people vote into office just want cannon fodder for their money making rackets, and the average soldier is completely expendable. Nice distraction, though.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2015 11:08AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Danny, you have made a serious effort to remain neutral about the Chris Kyle facts. You have targeted a couple of individuals, but I acknowledge that you have not explicitly endorsed any position about the content of the book. [/quote]

Thank you.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Feb 5, 2015 01:11PM)
The sad gentleman in the background looks eerily familiar, Marine/Navy Operation.
Have a great day "Y'all!"

[img]http://lifestylemags.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/seal-swcc-dot-com-navy-seal-photo-download-000600.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 5, 2015 02:37PM)
Danny, you have remained neutral on Kyle, but your neutrality loses some of its potency because you only object to one poster expressing a view on Kyle's book. If you objected to every poster expressing a view on the provenance of the words in question, then I might take your views a bit more seriously.

I am not pushing an anti-American agenda. I think you have a great country. But not even the Pope is infallible. And certainly the war mongers in the US cabinet are not infallible. I am anti-Kyle, but that is not based on ideology. That is based on finding him a reprehensible human being.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 5, 2015 03:30PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Danny, you have remained neutral on Kyle, but your neutrality loses some of its potency because you only object to one poster expressing a view on Kyle's book. If you objected to every poster expressing a view on the provenance of the words in question, then I might take your views a bit more seriously.

I am not pushing an anti-American agenda. I think you have a great country. But not even the Pope is infallible. And certainly the war mongers in the US cabinet are not infallible. I am anti-Kyle, but that is not based on ideology. That is based on finding him a reprehensible human being. [/quote]
The Pope?? Lol. Bad analogy.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 5, 2015 03:38PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Danny, you have remained neutral on Kyle, but your neutrality loses some of its potency because you only object to one poster expressing a view on Kyle's book. If you objected to every poster expressing a view on the provenance of the words in question, then I might take your views a bit more seriously.

I am not pushing an anti-American agenda. I think you have a great country. But not even the Pope is infallible. And certainly the war mongers in the US cabinet are not infallible. I am anti-Kyle, but that is not based on ideology. That is based on finding him a reprehensible human being. [/quote]
The Pope?? Lol. Bad analogy. [/quote]
Not really, I would have thought. He thinks he is infallible, yet we all know he isn't. A certain portion of flag-waving tea-party Americans feel the same way. And they do the reasonable people (still in a majority I believe) no favours.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 5, 2015 03:47PM)
That ones a little hard to dissect. A certain portion of the tea-party feel that the pope is infallible, or know that he isn't, or that THEY are or are not infallible or that someone else is or isn't infallible? Hard to know what favours they aren't doing for 'reasonable' people without understanding who or what they believe to be or not to be infallible.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 5, 2015 03:50PM)
Just for clarity- the claim is that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith only. He's still perfectly capable of running a red light or making a mistake in mundane matters.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 5, 2015 03:54PM)
The Pope is fallible. And not just in mundane matters, in all matters.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 5, 2015 03:55PM)
Ah, that might be it. Maybe Tony meant that tea partiers feel they are infallible and incapable of running red lights. I would have to agree then that they aren't doing reasonable people any favors.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 5, 2015 04:07PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, landmark wrote:
Re: spitting. While some anti-war protesters may have spit at soldiers, the fact that the US Government spits on veterans everyday gets ignored. From denying PTSD and Agent Orange related disabilities to sending out soldiers without proper body armor; from putting women soldiers at risk of rape by their superiors to cutting food stamps. The people that pro- military people vote into office just want cannon fodder for their money making rackets, and the average soldier is completely expendable. Nice distraction, though. [/quote]

Actually, that's all an urban legend.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2015 04:40PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Just for clarity- the claim is that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith only. He's still perfectly capable of running a red light or making a mistake in mundane matters. [/quote]


Yes true.

Personally I find it an idiotic analogy by Tony in the first place and more of an attempt to cover up his wrong impression of what I really have said. Fairly desperate one as well.

Tony to clarify I have simply said YOUR assertions are not universal. You have a tendency to speak in sweeping generalities as if they are fact. You take a far less than mainstream opinion and try to pass it off as the norm. It is not.

Nobody has asked for my position here and I have not given one. Calling you on your bs not withstanding I don't know enough about this to have an informed opinion. That is the real difference here. You have an uninformed opinion and pass it off as fact.

My neutrality has not been compromised simply by calling your long bs. If you want to talk about what is actually known then good. But leave the Pope out of it.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 5, 2015 05:15PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Ah, that might be it. Maybe Tony meant that tea partiers feel they are infallible and incapable of running red lights. I would have to agree then that they aren't doing reasonable people any favors. [/quote]
Got it in one, Rockwall.

Danny, I am not trying to pass off an uninformed opinion as fact. I am trying to pass off an informed opinion as an informed opinion. As you said yourself, read what I wrote.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 5, 2015 05:21PM)
Check out this item I found on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=400800921293&alt=web
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Feb 5, 2015 05:49PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Just for clarity- the claim is that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith only. He's still perfectly capable of running a red light . . . .[/quote]
What if he has faith that it'll turn green before he gets to it?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 5, 2015 06:03PM)
That would be an interesting defense in a motor vehicle negligence case. :eek:

But, seriously, "matters of faith" refers to the interpretation of Catholic Doctrine, which, to my knowledge, does not speak to matters of traffic violations.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 5, 2015 06:07PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Check out this item I found on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=400800921293&alt=web [/quote]
Not as cool as the one Devious showed, but still a cool little knick knack. Check out the rest of them and their slogans while you're there. It isn't just Chris Kyle who enjoyed his job.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 5, 2015 06:11PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
The Pope is fallible. And not just in mundane matters, in all matters. [/quote]

No need to attack Catholicism. I simply cited the Catholic position on papal infallibility.

But some, I guess, will never miss an opportunity to attack other's religions.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2015 06:18PM)
Why let the opportunity go by?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 5, 2015 06:27PM)
Everytime they take that opportunity, they reinforce the stereotype that all theists are condescending and obnoxious. Which is unfortunate, because there are many atheists who don't try to inflict their own lack of belief upon others.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Feb 5, 2015 06:33PM)
Don't let 'em fool you, Bob...they believe as devoutly as any theist.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2015 06:35PM)
Lobo beat me to it.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Feb 5, 2015 07:06PM)
Yes a few Bob, but to say ‘many’ might be stretching it a little much.:)


Tom
Message: Posted by: w_s_anderson (Feb 5, 2015 07:27PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On Feb 3, 2015, rockwall wrote:

The defamation of Chris Kyle here and elsewhere reminds me of another sad event in American History. The spitting on soldiers as they returned from the Vietnam war. And in large part by the same crowd.

[/quote]

The stories of soldiers being spat on by war protestors are myths and urban legend.

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1276799/posts

http://www.amazon.com/The-Spitting-Image-Memory-Vietnam/dp/0814751474 [/quote]

Here is a link to counter Payne's account of what it was like for a Soldier returning from Vietnam. Maybe he is just speaking from his own personal experiences though. It was a nice attempt to try and whitewash the horrible treatment Vets received coming home.

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/160444095.html
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 5, 2015 07:28PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
The Pope is fallible. And not just in mundane matters, in all matters. [/quote]

No need to attack Catholicism. I simply cited the Catholic position on papal infallibility.

But some, I guess, will never miss an opportunity to attack other's religions. [/quote]
I haven't attacked anyone's religion. I sincerely hope you aren't referring to me, Bob.
And if you are, I'm offended.
The Pope is a man and all men are sinners. I'm not certain, but I think Catholics might agree that the only infallible one was resurrected.
If they do not agree, then I don't know enough about their religion. But I stand by my opinion that the Pope is fallible. I can assure you there was no attack.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 5, 2015 07:52PM)
Though you would hope that spitting at veterans and similar conduct is rare, unfortunately it does happen. The Westboro Baptist Church did disgraceful things at the funerals of veterans, thus disproving Payne's point - much as I hate to debunk the views of someone I normally agree with.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Feb 5, 2015 07:55PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
The Pope is a man and all men are sinners. I'm not certain, but I think Catholics might agree that the only infallible one was resurrected.
If they do not agree, then I don't know enough about their religion. But I stand by my opinion that the Pope is fallible.
[/quote]
The Catholic faith believes that the Pope is infallible when it comes to pronouncing on doctrine, but fallible on other matters, as are all humans.

The infallibility of the Pope (within those limits) is an important part of their beliefs.
Message: Posted by: w_s_anderson (Feb 5, 2015 07:56PM)
I thought Payne was infallible.....just ask him....lol. ;)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 5, 2015 08:03PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
The Pope is a man and all men are sinners. I'm not certain, but I think Catholics might agree that the only infallible one was resurrected.
If they do not agree, then I don't know enough about their religion. But I stand by my opinion that the Pope is fallible.
[/quote]
The Catholic faith believes that the Pope is infallible when it comes to pronouncing on doctrine, but fallible on other matters, as are all humans.

The infallibility of the Pope (within those limits) is an important part of their beliefs. [/quote]

A succinct and accurate description.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Feb 5, 2015 08:09PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:
I thought Payne was infallible.....just ask him....lol. ;) [/quote]

lol
I like Payne, but I hate those links he provides.
I think he has writers to whip em up for him.
He can prove hot is cold.:)

Tom
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 5, 2015 08:30PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:
...
Here is a link to counter Payne's account of what it was like for a Soldier returning from Vietnam. Maybe he is just speaking from his own personal experiences though. It was a nice attempt to try and whitewash the horrible treatment Vets received coming home.

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/160444095.html [/quote]

From your article:

"Lembcke is an avowed socialist and has tried to use incomplete or dishonest research to lend credence to his government-as-pro-war conspiracy theories, to use the 9-million-plus Vietnam-era veterans as anti-war pawns."

hmmmm. kinda sounds familiar.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 5, 2015 09:00PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]Leaving early tomorrow morning for A.C. to play some Poker. Will be gone for a few days. Not sure how many. That is the good news. The bad news is I will be back.[/quote]
Going there in a $50,000 Caddy and returning in a $500,000 bus? :) [/quote]

Yea heard that a lot of times. actually did very well. Finished first in the Tournament at The Borgata. You would not believe what they tried to pull. Tried to pay me $785 cash and $2,200 in comps. Needless to say...you know me (and now they do also :) ) and I ended up calling for the "Floor" and they came over with Security...I got my 2,985 in cash. Plus a two day room comp for my troubles.

Also about the transportation. My buddy that drove...well we got rear ended on the Schuylkill in his 4 month old Tahoe. Left A.C. at 3:30 and got home after 9:00....usually just over 2 hours.

Now back to raising havoc on the Café. :)
Message: Posted by: balducci (Feb 5, 2015 09:05PM)
Congrats. What sort of poker and how many competitors?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 5, 2015 09:13PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I can only speak from personal experience. In 1969, while I was in the service and on leave, I went to visit my brother in Atlanta where he was going to college at Oglethorpe.

My brother was a full blown hippie at the time. And I was in full uniform when we took a walk through downtown Atlanta. We were quite a sight, I guess.

When we walked through one area, I DID get spit on by anti-war protesters who chanted "baby killer" at me.

But when we walked through the business district, it was my brother who got dirty looks from a lot of people who called him a "dirty hippie draft dodger." And he was spit on as well.

There was a lot of spitting going on back then. [/quote]

+1 Very similar experiences.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 5, 2015 09:20PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
The Pope is a man and all men are sinners. I'm not certain, but I think Catholics might agree that the only infallible one was resurrected.
If they do not agree, then I don't know enough about their religion. But I stand by my opinion that the Pope is fallible.
[/quote]
The Catholic faith believes that the Pope is infallible when it comes to pronouncing on doctrine, but fallible on other matters, as are all humans.

The infallibility of the Pope (within those limits) is an important part of their beliefs. [/quote]
I did not know that. Thankyou, Tony.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 5, 2015 09:23PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Check out this item I found on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=400800921293&alt=web [/quote]
Not as cool as the one Devious showed, but still a cool little knick knack. Check out the rest of them and their slogans while you're there. It isn't just Chris Kyle who enjoyed his job. [/quote]

How about our favorite in Nam..If I can see it I can kill it.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 5, 2015 09:27PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:
I thought Payne was infallible.....just ask him....lol. ;) [/quote]

lol
I like Payne, but I hate those links he provides.
I think he has writers to whip em up for him.
He can prove hot is cold.:)

Tom [/quote]

Would they be "Ghost Writers"?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 5, 2015 09:32PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, balducci wrote:
Congrats. What sort of poker and how many competitors? [/quote]


Thanks.

Texas Hold Em No limit. 112 players. 15,000 starting chips with 20 minute blinds and one rebuy up until I believe it was the 6th or 7th blind level. Started at 7p.m. ended at around 2:30 a.m.. Small tournament but a fun time.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 5, 2015 09:58PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
The Pope is a man and all men are sinners. I'm not certain, but I think Catholics might agree that the only infallible one was resurrected.
If they do not agree, then I don't know enough about their religion. But I stand by my opinion that the Pope is fallible.
[/quote]
The Catholic faith believes that the Pope is infallible when it comes to pronouncing on doctrine, but fallible on other matters, as are all humans.

The infallibility of the Pope (within those limits) is an important part of their beliefs. [/quote]
I did not know that. Thankyou, Tony. [/quote]

That's exactly what I wrote earlier.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 5, 2015 10:51PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]Leaving early tomorrow morning for A.C. to play some Poker. Will be gone for a few days. Not sure how many. That is the good news. The bad news is I will be back.[/quote]
Going there in a $50,000 Caddy and returning in a $500,000 bus? :) [/quote]

Yea heard that a lot of times. actually did very well. Finished first in the Tournament at The Borgata. You would not believe what they tried to pull. Tried to pay me $785 cash and $2,200 in comps. Needless to say...you know me (and now they do also :) ) and I ended up calling for the "Floor" and they came over with Security...I got my 2,985 in cash. Plus a two day room comp for my troubles.

Also about the transportation. My buddy that drove...well we got rear ended on the Schuylkill in his 4 month old Tahoe. Left A.C. at 3:30 and got home after 9:00....usually just over 2 hours.

Now back to raising havoc on the Café. :) [/quote]
Congratulations! Too bad for your buddy, though I'm sure he'll get reimbursed by insurance, fortunately. I'd like to visit AC sometime, just to see what it's like. I'm not a gambler though. Maybe when it warms up. I used to go when I was young and bring back the Salt Water Taffy.
Message: Posted by: Payne (Feb 5, 2015 10:55PM)
[quote]
On Feb 5, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:

I thought Payne was infallible.....just ask him....lol. ;)

[/quote]

No, that would be the Pope. :)

Hard as it is for many to accept, I am only human and thus from time to time will make a mistake. Most of them however are intentional so you guys won't feel too bad about being around someone as infallible as me :)
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 5, 2015 11:32PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
The Pope is a man and all men are sinners. I'm not certain, but I think Catholics might agree that the only infallible one was resurrected.
If they do not agree, then I don't know enough about their religion. But I stand by my opinion that the Pope is fallible.
[/quote]
The Catholic faith believes that the Pope is infallible when it comes to pronouncing on doctrine, but fallible on other matters, as are all humans.

The infallibility of the Pope (within those limits) is an important part of their beliefs. [/quote]
I did not know that. Thankyou, Tony. [/quote]

That's exactly what I wrote earlier. [/quote]
No. Not exactly. You referred to me as 'some people' coupled with an insult.
I didn't know that the infallibility of the Pope was a Catholic tenet.
And even so, a disagreement with that would not constitute an attack. Im better than that, thanks Bob.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 5, 2015 11:45PM)
And something about contributing to Deists seeming obnoxious to atheists. Another insult that I'm not taking lightly.
I think most atheists wouldn't find my calling the pope a fallible human obnoxious.
I respect all peoples' religions that guide them to live by a moral code.
Your implication that I do not is offensive.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 6, 2015 12:06AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]Leaving early tomorrow morning for A.C. to play some Poker. Will be gone for a few days. Not sure how many. That is the good news. The bad news is I will be back.[/quote]
Going there in a $50,000 Caddy and returning in a $500,000 bus? :) [/quote]

Yea heard that a lot of times. actually did very well. Finished first in the Tournament at The Borgata. You would not believe what they tried to pull. Tried to pay me $785 cash and $2,200 in comps. Needless to say...you know me (and now they do also :) ) and I ended up calling for the "Floor" and they came over with Security...I got my 2,985 in cash. Plus a two day room comp for my troubles.

Also about the transportation. My buddy that drove...well we got rear ended on the Schuylkill in his 4 month old Tahoe. Left A.C. at 3:30 and got home after 9:00....usually just over 2 hours.

Now back to raising havoc on the Café. :) [/quote]
Congratulations! Too bad for your buddy, though I'm sure he'll get reimbursed by insurance, fortunately. I'd like to visit AC sometime, just to see what it's like. I'm not a gambler though. Maybe when it warms up. I used to go when I was young and bring back the Salt Water Taffy. [/quote]

Yes he will get reimbursed by insurance. The State Trooper gave the woman a ticket and told us that they ticket the person at fault. She has good insurance which was checked by the trooper on scene.

You may be disappointed by the new A.C. It is not family oriented as it once was. The boardwalk was really deserted but admittedly it was quite cold. But it was really barren. Talked to several employees including dealers and a few pit bosses and they are very concerned about their jobs. Same goes for waitress's. Most of them have a fear that any week maybe their last. A.C. is really hurting. They still have Taffy. Not sure it is the same.

The one thing I find interesting is the names of the streets just like in monopoly.
Message: Posted by: w_s_anderson (Feb 6, 2015 09:39AM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On Feb 5, 2015, w_s_anderson wrote:

I thought Payne was infallible.....just ask him....lol. ;)

[/quote]

No, that would be the Pope. :)

Hard as it is for many to accept, I am only human and thus from time to time will make a mistake. Most of them however are intentional so you guys won't feel too bad about being around someone as infallible as me :) [/quote]


NOOOOOOOOO!!!!! My concept of what is real just did a 180!!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 6, 2015 03:07PM)
[quote]On Feb 5, 2015, magicfish wrote:
And something about contributing to Deists seeming obnoxious to atheists. Another insult that I'm not taking lightly.
I think most atheists wouldn't find my calling the pope a fallible human obnoxious.
I respect all peoples' religions that guide them to live by a moral code.
Your implication that I do not is offensive. [/quote]

I apologize for that magicfish. I overreacted to your statement.

I guess I owe you a beer.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 6, 2015 03:10PM)
No worries, Bob.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mystoffelees (Feb 6, 2015 04:23PM)
Chris Kyle vs. Brian Williams. Go!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 6, 2015 07:41PM)
[quote]On Feb 6, 2015, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
Chris Kyle vs. Brian Williams. Go! [/quote]

Well they both apparently are/were good at telling whoppers.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Feb 6, 2015 08:10PM)
Oh, I'm sure they both just miss-spoke.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Feb 6, 2015 09:44PM)
I'm more concerned with William's lie, which was broadcast nationally and directly effected his credibility as a reporter, than I am with Chris Kyle's questionable stories about Katrina and car-jackers, which seem to have been more bar-room braggadocio than anything else.

Williams needs to retire, not just apologize. Otherwise he should be fired.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 6, 2015 09:48PM)
[quote]On Feb 6, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I'm more concerned with William's lie, which was broadcast nationally and directly effected his credibility as a reporter, than I am with Chris Kyle's questionable stories about Katrina and car-jackers, which seem to have been more bar-room braggadocio than anything else.

Williams needs to retire, not just apologize. Otherwise he should be fired. [/quote]
I agree.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 6, 2015 10:20PM)
If only we lived in such a world. Dan Rather was made a hero.