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Topic: N-strippers
Message: Posted by: JustinWong (May 9, 2015 07:56PM)
I have been making them on my own but since I'm doing by hand the work is sometimes inconsistent.
Can anyone point me in the right direction to someone who produces more consistent/ subtle work?
With the Theory 11 video coming out (my educated guess) I'm afraid they will be in more demand so I'd like to look into now.

Thanks in advance.

Justin W.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (May 10, 2015 03:23AM)
You might need more than 1 post for that kind of information, even then I don't think many will provide you with information. Just wait and see what videos/booklets come out on the subject :)
Message: Posted by: JustinWong (May 10, 2015 05:01AM)
I get that- I've been a "lurker" for a while- and really only in this forum.
I'll wait until something pops up
Message: Posted by: M.Parangot (May 10, 2015 05:15PM)
Theory11 is into N-Strippers??
Message: Posted by: AMcD (May 10, 2015 07:35PM)
Yes, ask Jason.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 11, 2015 02:55PM)
There's no excuse for hand-made n-strippers to be inconsistent.

Up your game, problem solved.
Message: Posted by: Ross Tayler (May 11, 2015 05:21PM)
Is this the "big secret" that "none of the experts want us to know about" that Jason mentioned in that round table discussion?

I get that not a lot has been published with them, but I didn't realise they were some big secret! Granted, it's true that people get a little shirty when they get mentioned here, but they've surely been discussed in enough places (off the top of my head: Forte's books, albeit briefly; Sal's DVD; Malek's DVD; Lovell's book ; I'm sure there's several more of which I'm unaware.) that presenting them as being underground could be considered no more than quite crude marketing? Or perhaps it was just a slightly hyperbolic way of saying they're not used in the mainstream magic community.

I also struggle to believe that Teller had never heard of them (not questioning Jason's honesty at all here, just, you know, it's Teller!)

In short, I'd be surprised if Ns were what Jason was referring to given the "Top Secret" status attributed to them -- however I'm certain those saying otherwise here are more aware of the situation than me, so perhaps my tiny library and small number of clever friends leaves me better informed than I realise.

Best wishes to all,

Ross.
Message: Posted by: M.Parangot (May 12, 2015 06:21AM)
Todd Lassen sold/sells different cutter. Although I don't own one, there was a big discussion on here on N-strippers.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 12, 2015 07:57PM)
Who ever said they were any sort of big secret, or "underground"?
Just because folks who know how to make and use them don't bother to answer the duffs that post here asking about them doesn't imply anything other than there's no free lunch.

N-Strippers are actually old hat these days, although that still doesn't mean the lazy get them explained to them such that they don't have to go out and do their own research.

If you really want contemporary underground, check out G-Lam strippers - they'll blow your mind!
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 13, 2015 12:44PM)
G-Lam strippers have been replaced by a new modern miracle stripper card called SFT strippers.

The cards are not cut at all but rather the edges of the cards to be pulled are slightly softened with a chemical preparation.

This work is completely undetectable except to those in the know. There is nothing that even comes close to this form of stripper deck. (These cards are a very sophisticated variation of Flex Cards which are essentially marked card work). SFT strippers are so new and unknown they have not even been divulged on YouTube yet.

A extremely clever variation of this work is to soften the edges of the entire deck and leave the cards to be pulled untreated.

There is nothing to see with these cards and even those non-hustlers that aspire to the heights of virtuosity by boasting they can pull an N-Stripper card cut to one-billionth of an inch would be completely fooled by this work.
Message: Posted by: Gary Plants (May 13, 2015 05:36PM)
Nice to see a new post from you Cagliostro! Hope to see more. I always enjoyed all of your posts.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (May 13, 2015 06:22PM)
@Cagliostro

Here are some pictures of the decks I'm practicing with. Please, tell us how many cards are marked and where:

[img]http://www.arnoldmcdonald.org/temp/ns0.05-2.png[/img]

[img]http://www.arnoldmcdonald.org/temp/ns2.png[/img]
Message: Posted by: Mike Rozek (May 13, 2015 08:48PM)
Not shown here: The short ends of the deck. :)
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 14, 2015 12:25AM)
[quote]On May 13, 2015, Mike Rozek wrote:
Not shown here: The short ends of the deck. :) [/quote]

And you have [i]no idea[/i] what you're looking at.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (May 14, 2015 12:30AM)
Well in theory it can be on the short ends of the deck, but I've never pulled them from the short end
Message: Posted by: M.Parangot (May 14, 2015 06:16AM)
[quote]On May 14, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
[quote]On May 13, 2015, Mike Rozek wrote:
Not shown here: The short ends of the deck. :) [/quote]

And you have [i]no idea[/i] what you're looking at. [/quote]
LoL @ Mike. As if Arnold would post those pics if the work wouldn't be there
Message: Posted by: AMcD (May 14, 2015 08:46AM)
The work IS there. As the matter of fact those decks are used in a video I did for some friends. They could tell you that:

- 4 cards are marked in the plastic deck (Carta Mundi). Marks are ~0.05mm

- 2 cards are marked in the Bicycle deck. Marks are ~0.04mm, the minimum I can feel.

The funny part is that some cards are worn and are more "marked" than the ones that are REALLY marked.

It took me ages to be able to pull out such tiny marks. 0.04mm is 0.0016in if I'm not mistaken. Trust me, its hard to pull out! I'm into that stuff for years and I have never seen such a tiny work. There are many videos available with guys talking about NS, they NEVER show you the deck, N-E-V-E-R! The reason why is very simple, it's because their marks are HUGE, very often 0.10mm-0.25mm. With such big work, the marks are not invisible at all, and even a complete layman could spot the marked cards from few feet away. Listen to unca Arnold. When someone is bragging about NS, ask him to show you the deck. I'm telling you, you're gonna be surprised as the work is not good at all. Sometimes, it's even ridiculous.

I know many guys doing, selling, even using NS. None has ever seen marks as tiny as mine. Understand that it is for demonstration purpose only. With paper decks, after a few rounds the marks disappear because guys are sweating, etc. Therefore you would need bigger marks... and they would be visible! With plastic decks, it's better though. But been accurate with 0.04 marks is another story... Details, tips, history, etc. will be provided in my next booklet which won't show BEFORE Jason's video, I'm not stupid.

Now. This place has seen, sees and will always see haters, bad people, jealous people always bashing, dismissing, etc. I don't care. There are people who can, and those who can't. Usually the last ones are the ones talking the most.
Message: Posted by: Ross Tayler (May 14, 2015 05:19PM)
Artie,

That was exactly my point. They're not underground, but in a podcast discussion they were described as if they were. This made me doubt that it was Ns to which Jason was referring.

Can't wait for your booklet, Arnold!! It's going to be killer, I'm sure!

Best wishes all,

Ross.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 14, 2015 10:01PM)
Just to add a few comments on the SFT Strippers described above.

From distant memory, there was a type work called "Sturgid" or something like that (I'm not entirely sure) back in the early or mid-nineteen hundreds. Perhaps one of the historians on this BB can clarify this. I believe it was also described in The Open Book by J.H Johnson. (Evidently The Open Book has been reprinted and is being sold through Amazon.)

As I recall, with this type work the card was split, a portion of the "inside" of the card was removed by razor and then the card was closed or sealed back up. This left a slight "softness" in certain portions of the card which enabled a hustler to read the cards although they were not physically marked on the backs in the common sense of the word. A similar softness is apparent with Flex work. I'm just giving some history here so people can relate a little to SFT Strippers although they are completely different.

Among magicians and hobbyists, the questions they ask each other are, "Let me see the move or show me a video of you doing the move?" "What book or DVD did you learn the move from?" "How do you practice it?" and so on. Questions of that sort are important to this group. Then the move in question (usually some over-exposed ancient move like bottom or second dealing), is analyzed and compared and oftentimes there is "one-upmanship" involved, i.e., "my way is better than yours, look how well I can do this, I can do this better than anyone else out there," etc.

However, hustlers look at things in a completely different way since they actually use their methods under fire which to me is the real test. The main questions for them would be, "What can you do with the move or method?" "Where have you used it?" "How well did it hold up under fire?" "How do you actually apply it?" Questions of that nature would be important to this group. Subtle nuances of doing a "manipulation" are usually of lesser importance and at the higher levels of hustling the use of common moves and methods is greatly distained and little used. At that level it is mostly gaffs, paper, psychology, cleverness and "shade" that are used.

To give an example that many on this board can relate to, most magician/hobbyist types would laugh at something like Marcus' Savannah Move because it is so simple and easy to do. There is no challenge for them and they can't show-off their skill with the move to their peers or to layman. It is too easy to do. However, the real challenge (which is beyond most people's ability), is not the move but to get it on under casino conditions and those that could made more money in 6 months than most bottom or second dealers could make in their entire lifetime using their moves in private games no matter how perfect their false deal.

As far as strippers go, they are ancient and go back at least a couple hundred years. In fact, Notched Strippers, or what are now called "N-Strippers" were treated disdainfully in the old KC Card Company catalogs. The most favored and deceptive type strippers were what gamblers called "Cutters." N-Strippers are a variation of cutters. They have been revived in recent years by magicians and are considered the esoteric or coveted "new" work although they have been around forever. Personally, I think cutters are more practical on a day to day basis under fire but I am not going to waste my time discussing that.

The point I am making is, among hustlers the main thing with strippers is not how light the work is, but how is it used under fire, how practical is it in the situation it is to be used in, what combinations are used, how deceptive is the actual pull itself during a game and will the work stand up over time as the cards get moist and bent. These are all relevant questions to hustlers because they are not looking for favorable comments or accolades from their peers but trying to figure out the best way to get the money.

So there are two way of looking at these things, the magician/hobbyist/non-hustler approach and the hustler approach. One approach is not better than the other; they are just different ways of looking at things.

The point is this. With N-Strippers certainly one can pull a card with a minute notch using a new deck and without much deception on the pull. Also, one can separately pull two or three different combinations. These approaches are useful for demonstration purposes and to impress one's peers or laymen but have little practical relevance. But to use N-Strippers in play, very light work breaks down quickly as the cards become sticky and worn. In the real world the work has to be put in more strongly to stand up, especially when pulling multiple cards at once and to make the pull more casual and deceptive. The stronger the notch work, the more noticeable and detectible it is.

On the other hand, with SFT Strippers, since the cards are not cut and the deck squares perfectly, even medium strength work is just as invisible and deceptive as light work because there is no notch or "cut" to see - ever.

I just wanted to address some of the "mystery" and "intrigue" that is bandied around regarding N-Strippers. Hope I did not burst anyone's bubble.

Perhaps this was helpful to some.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 14, 2015 11:39PM)
[quote]On May 14, 2015, Ross Tayler wrote:
Artie,

That was exactly my point. They're not underground, but in a podcast discussion they were described as if they were. This made me doubt that it was Ns to which Jason was referring.

Can't wait for your booklet, Arnold!! It's going to be killer, I'm sure!

Best wishes all,

Ross. [/quote]


Ross,

Although I wish AMcD hadn't confirmed that we are working on a negative strippers project, he did and we are.

As to their status as an "underground" or "secret" move - you're completely wrong. They are a secret. Just not to you.

You need 2 components for something to be a secret: You have to have a large group of people that don't know a specific fact or idea and you have to have another group that is actively trying to prevent the first group from knowing about that fact or idea.

Lots of people don't know the gross national product of Argentina (that satisfies the first point), but since there is no group actively trying to keep that information from falling into your hands, it fails on the second point. Thus, the GNP of Argentina isn't a secret.

With regard to N-strippers, there are tens of thousands of people that identify themselves as magicians that have never heard of negative strippers. Forget about the 7 billion other people in the world that haven't heard of them (to the lay public the push-through shuffle is a "secret"), we're just talking about magicians here. But, there are a [i]lot[/i] of magicians in the world. By some accounts it's the second largest hobby behind stamp collecting.

I don't know how much dealings with the amateur magic scene you have, but I have a ton. I lecture for them, talk to them here in Las Vegas as they come through town, and see them all the time at the Magic Castle. And virtually all of them are blown away when I mention or show them negative strippers. They simply haven't heard of them before.

As I mentioned in the podcast, Teller had no idea about negs when I showed him a few years ago. You thought that surprising - you shouldn't. Teller's not a close-up magician - he's a stage magician (and a *** fine one at that).

The fact that the bulk of magicians haven't heard of negs satisfies the first point. So, who are the people that have been trying to keep negative strippers from becoming popular? Just about everyone else that learned about them pre-internet.

A guy named "SC" (he's occasionally on the Café and can reveal himself if he wants to) first showed me negs in 1990. That's 25 years that I've known about them and never tipped the work in any serious way, even while writing books and lecture notes and doing 3 dozen downloads on other topics. I didn't know it at the time, but SC been working with them for years before I met him He never breathed a word of it to anyone (including me) until I figured it out through other sources. Another friend then showed me some stuff with negs in 1991. He's very cagey with his negative information (and he does some wonderful things with them). Another magician I know refuses to discuss negs even with people that know he's using them! Forte and Rod the Hop tipped me to some diabolical ideas that have never appeared in print. A fellow magician whose name I won't mention has shown me some crazy stuff with negs that I've never seen anyone else do - he's never put it into print and doesn't talk about his ideas to hardly anyone. Paul Wilson's never tipped them. Wimhurst has never tipped them. Ortiz has never brought them up in print. I could go on and on....

All of these guys (and many more) learned about negs the hard way in the days before the internet. We had to see the work, understand that we'd just been fooled very badly by something we didn't have any idea about, and then go through the process of asking, begging, trading with someone to learn about them. These days guys just read a few posts by the Doc or AMcD (both of whom really know what they're talking about) and suddenly those beginners think that they too "know" about negs (even if they really don't).

I've spoken to a few of these guys about this project and ALL of them are bummed that negs are getting wide exposure. It couldn't be helped, but they're still bummed about it, as am I.

But back to the amateur magic scene for a second....

Here's a bet I would've been happy to make you before this project: Let's go to Blackpool. We'll walk up to every magician there and ask them what negative strippers are. For every magician that knows, I'll give you $20. For every magician that doesn't know you give me $1.00. You'd be broke by the end of the first day.

Now, where I would [i]not[/i] try and do that is at FFFF, or a TSD convention, or any other place where serious card guys hang out. Many of them [i]have[/i] heard of N-strippers, even if they don't remember exactly what they are or how to pull them.

But at a regular old magic convention - no problem. I'm giving you 20:1 odds and you'll go broke, not me. That means that less than 5% of magicians know what N-strippers are. I've got complete confidence in that statement, even if it rises to probably 15% of guys that identify themselves as "card guys" and 40% of guys that think they're "serious card guys."

You just hang out with (even if only electronically) with a crowd that knows about them and understands how they're used. You're more educated than most and so negs probably don't "feel" like a secret to you. But they are.

Speaking of how they're used - you mentioned that since N-strippers are in print a few times that they weren't a secret. Please tell me, where in print are you aware of a good description of how to pull negative work? Sure, they're mentioned in passing in [i]Poker Protection[/i], and they're shown on Malek's DVD, and Marlo put some stuff on "concave" strippers in [i]Marlo's Magazine Vol 5[/i], and they're briefly described in [i]The Castle Notebooks[/i], but I'd love to know of a print source where the method for pulling them is described in any sort of detailed, helpful way. If you know of one, it's news to me.

I think the fact that this 100+ year old move has NEVER been properly described in print before is very telling: negative strippers are a secret.

The only reason I'm releasing any information about them now is because another company has some guy that learned about negs last week and was trying to make a quick buck. This project will prevent that. As much as I hate seeing this information released to a wide audience, I hate some asshat that only read about them last week revealing how they work even more.

Hope this helps clear up where I stand on whether negs are still a secret to the majority of the magicians in the world or not.

Jason

PS: You're welcome to rebut any of my arguments here. I'd like to know why you and others seem to think that negs are so well known in the magic community.

PPS: Arnold didn't do anything wrong by confirming the project - I just forgot to tell him we weren't tipping the topic yet!
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 15, 2015 12:24AM)
[quote]On May 14, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:


As far as strippers go, they are ancient and go back at least a couple hundred years. In fact, Notched Strippers, or what are now called "N-Strippers" were treated disdainfully in the old KC Card Company catalogs. The most favored and deceptive type strippers were what gamblers called "Cutters." N-Strippers are a variation of cutters.
[/quote]


Cag,

Curious about this line in your post, I just looked through about 30 different KC Card Co. catalogs - I didn't find a single word that could be construed as "disdainful" about concave, or N-strippers in any of them. In fact, KC proudly touted their concave strippers as being the best work available in their later catalogs.

Now, in a few of the dozen or so HC Evans catalogs I have, they cast aspersions on all of the [i]other[/i] companies' concave strippers (calling them merely "notched") but boldly proclaimed [i]their[/i] concave strippers were the "real deal."

I don't take that to be treating the concept of concave or negative strippers "disdainfully" at all - it's just marketing.
Could you clarify your comments?

Jason
Message: Posted by: Mike Rozek (May 15, 2015 01:04AM)
Totally agree with Jason here. Arguing over whether or not they are truly secret or "underground" is silly. Unless the accusation is that the intent of using those words is to deceive folks and drive sales, in which case those are the least hyperbolic words that I could think would be used for such a purpose. I've long considered neg strippers a wonderful oddity: something that those in the know have widely, and without any sort of agreement, kept the mechanics from spreading all over YouTube. Just incredible in this day and age.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (May 15, 2015 01:17AM)
I'll need a better riffle cull demo now :P
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 15, 2015 01:19AM)
Mike brings up an interesting point, and one I hadn't considered (at least not specifically).

Search YouTube for "second deal" using quotation marks. I got about 6900 results. "Bottom deal" got over 7000.

"Negative strippers" got: 0

"Concave strippers" got 0.

"N-Strippers" and "In-strippers" both returned a few hundred results, but all of them were about girls taking their clothes off, not methods of locating Kings and Aces.

For better or for worse, YouTube is sort of the defacto dumping ground for all sorts of arcane knowledge. The fact that the specific phrase "negative strippers" brought back 0 results is astonishing. I was ready for at least a handful or hastily shot and poorly edited videos.

None. Zip. Zero. Nada.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Mike Rozek (May 15, 2015 01:25AM)
Kind of neat that one of the best printed sources of information ( but nowhere near comprehensive) is Vernon's handwritten note to Zarrow. That's been online for years without a ton of attention.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 15, 2015 01:40AM)
Mike,

Are you talking about the letter and pack of cards from the Zarrow auction a few years ago?

Jason
Message: Posted by: Mike Rozek (May 15, 2015 01:42AM)
That's the one.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (May 15, 2015 01:49AM)
Well it sounds like it will be a great year for n strippers. I'm looking forward to the booklet and Jason's work on the subject.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 15, 2015 01:56AM)
Bobby,

Arnold's booklet will be great for guys that already know the basics and how to pull the work. The 1-on-1 for T11 is geared towards absolute beginners (at least with regard to negative stripper work).

Although the overarching subject matter is the same, we're really aiming at two different markets (at least I get the impression we are - Arnold's previous Arcanum volumes were definitely not for beginners!).

I'm looking forward to his book for sure.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (May 15, 2015 02:56AM)
Awesome, thank you for the additional information Jason.
(I can't edit that last past I did but it should read Arnold's Booklet)
Message: Posted by: AMcD (May 15, 2015 08:31AM)
Well,well, well... I'm very busy at the moment, but stay tuned, a long answer is boiling.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 15, 2015 09:14AM)
I'm not sure they're quite as "secret" as they're being made out:

https://coolotis.wordpress.com/new-visitors-and-old-pals-any-bs-not-business-related-here

https://coolotis.wordpress.com/pocket-trimmer-forum/
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 15, 2015 09:50AM)
Here's a very, very basic primer on N-Strippers, initially written by an associate of mine for a small group of interested souls, originally used as a one-sheet written primer to go along with a live demonstration. Combined with the information I linked to above, it should be enough to at least let one understand the basics of N-Strippers. If you have access to Doc's old N-Stripper videos, you're even further ahead. This just to whet everybody's appetite for Jason and Arnold's upcoming N-Stripper releases!:

Simply put, the N-Stripper has the work put in multiple locations on the long and short sides of the cards such that multiple different sets of cards can be stripped from the same deck.
As well, the work is so fine as to be many times more deceptive than a belly-in deck.
As opposed to being cut with a blade of knife, N-Stripper work is typically put in by sanding the card in the desired locations.
This sanding can easily put in with a fiber fingernail file, as available from any cosmetics counter.

N-Strippers are difficult to pull, and typically require a great deal of practice to benefit from their use.
Although the N-Stripper can pull multiple sets of different cards, any combination of between a single set, up to 5 sets is typical, depending on the game being played, or the decks intended use.
In a deck set to pull 5 different sets, 3 will typically be pulled from work put in on the long side, and two pulled with work put in on the short side (ends).
This also places N-Strippers (somewhat obtusely) into the Combination Stripper category.

The principal behind pulling N-Strippers is also what makes them extremely difficult to pull, but at the same time is what makes them highly deceptive.
If the deck is held in the left hand (for right handed users), between the thumb and forefinger, with the thumb and forefinger placed over one of the concave sanded areas, this results in the deck essentially supported by all the playing cards that aren’t sanded in that location (re-read that sentence a few times for clarity).
The sanded cards (target cards) are simply resting within the deck supported by the cards above and below them.
This lack of direct support from the fingers makes them unique in the deck, because drawing the right hand thumb and forefinger down the long side of the deck will cause those un-sanded cards to remain in place due to the friction of the left hands thumb and forefinger.

However, this same right hand drawing action can “pull out” our sanded target cards, as those cards experience no friction from the forefinger and thumb of the left hand (due to the sanded scallop in the target cards).
The target cards will pull out of the deck approximately ¼ inch or so (based on the length of the sanded scallop), at which time the unmodified portion of the long side of the cards (to each side of the scallop) will cause the target cards to encounter friction and stop.

But by the time the target cards stop, they will protrude far enough from the deck to be gripped by the thumb and forefinger of the right hand, and pulled the remainder of the way out of the deck.
The above is all done in a seamless motion, and taking only a split second.
The mechanics of the stripping action are based on a very tiny bit of the flesh on the right thumb and forefinger contacting one wall of the sanded convex area of the N-Stripper, which causes that target card (or cards) to begin to move, while the rest of the deck remains stationary in the left hand.
By sanding each set of target cards in different locations along the long and short sides, completely different groups of target cards can be pulled from the deck.

The above description may make the process seem somewhat easy, whereas in reality it remains exceptionally difficult.
The lengthy learning process first requires the miscreant to gain 100% proficiency in stripping a single set of target cards….then deceptively manipulating those cards to an advantage.
Different grips are required for work put in towards the ends of the long sides of the cards as is required for handling cars with the work put in near the center of the long side.

Completely different grip and technique is again required for handling target cards that have had the work put in on the short sides.
Working all the combinations deceptively at the table makes the N-Sripper a difficult stripper deck to work with.
The pay-off for those who endure the learning process is a most flexible and most deceptive technique.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 15, 2015 11:36AM)
Artie,

The fact that you had to reach to the internet for something published only 3 years ago is hysterical!

You realize you're proving my point by doing so, right?

Jason

PS: I have one of Todd's later, pocket cutters. I sometimes use it for demos, but usually sand by hand.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 15, 2015 02:37PM)
Jason, my somewhat casual point was only that what N-Strippers are, and how they pull is not as deeply underground as folks seem to imply it is.

Although I disagree with those who state that they were tipped years ago by Malek (they weren't, they were noted, but not tipped), they were described in the Castle Notebooks such that they could be easily understood.

But I agree with you, three years isn't a very long time. And I'd further agree with you that even 5 years ago, N-Strippers were much further underground than they are today.

But I would still note that there are plenty of folks around today who know what N-Strippers are, and how they work.

What I will give you in spades however, is that of the group of people I'm talking about, there is likely only a very small percentage who have any idea about what N-Strippers can do beyond pulling cards out of the deck.
In the short description posted above, only one short line make reference to manipulating the cards [i]"to an advantage"[/i], something that still remains somewhat under the radar.

It blunt terms, pulling them is one thing, but knowing what to do with them once they're manipulated such that they project from the deck in some fashion is something else entirely.

I too have one of Lassen's small pocket cutters, and although handy for demos, or to make a deck for a friend, a small piece of P2500 grit wet'n'dry sandpaper presents a much finer, and often undetectable cut.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 15, 2015 03:14PM)
Artie,

I don't measure secrets by how many people know them. I measure them by how many people [i]don't[/i] know them.

Imagine some Lockheed executive sitting in his office trying to tell you that since 2,000 people in his building know the design specs of a new spy plane they're building that those specs are not "secret." Of course they are! Just because 2000 people know the information means nothing. You have to look to the 25,000,000 aviation enthusiasts worldwide that would love a chance at looking at those design specs to determine if they're secret or not.

Unless you're more involved in the amateur magic scene than I think you are, you only have one side of the equation - you spend time talking to people that [i]know[/i] about negs. But you aren't out lecturing for magic groups and asking people to raise their hands if they know what negs are and seeing a room full of people staring blankly at you. I'm telling you, they just don't know!

Please understand - I'm not suggesting these people couldn't have found out what negs are over the years - I'm only reporting that they HAVEN'T. The information was out there, in several places. I know Arnold could probably document dozens and dozens of references to negs going back over 100 years.

But if no one was paying attention to those references (other than die-hards like us), and if the ones that did read the descriptions didn't quite understand them (a reasonable assumption considering the sparse nature of good information), then it's no surprise that these things are still little-known amongst mainstream magicians.

I realize that there are degrees of secrecy in the world. But when you determine a concept's "secretness" (I just made that word up), the important factor isn't the number of "knowers" it's the number of non-knowers. The method behind a chop-cup is a "secret" to non-magicians: they don't know it and there are people out there that make a conscious effort to prevent them from finding out. Boom - that's a secret.

Could they find out how it works with a quick Google search? Sure. But that speaks to the impenetrability of a secret, not to its status as a secret. Those are different things.

At the end of the day, published information that few bothered to read and even fewer understood is just about as secret as information that was never published in the first place.

Jason

PS: I'm still waiting for someone to explain the complete lack of exposure videos on YouTube. I think that's an unbelievably telling piece of "non-information."
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 15, 2015 04:02PM)
[quote]On May 15, 2015, JasonEngland wrote:

PS: I'm still waiting for someone to explain the complete lack of exposure videos on YouTube. I think that's an unbelievably telling piece of "non-information." [/quote]

I think you have already answered that question.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (May 15, 2015 11:24PM)
Hey Jason...not true....

Here is a video of a Negative Stripper in action.

Watch till end of video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR4B888bSZE

Talking about exposure.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 16, 2015 01:23AM)
[quote]On May 15, 2015, JasonEngland wrote:
[quote]On May 14, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:


As far as strippers go, they are ancient and go back at least a couple hundred years. In fact, Notched Strippers, or what are now called "N-Strippers" were treated disdainfully in the old KC Card Company catalogs. The most favored and deceptive type strippers were what gamblers called "Cutters." N-Strippers are a variation of cutters.
[/quote]


Cag,

Curious about this line in your post, I just looked through about 30 different KC Card Co. catalogs - I didn't find a single word that could be construed as "disdainful" about concave, or N-strippers in any of them. In fact, KC proudly touted their concave strippers as being the best work available in their later catalogs.

Now, in a few of the dozen or so HC Evans catalogs I have, they cast aspersions on all of the [i]other[/i] companies' concave strippers (calling them merely "notched") but boldly proclaimed [i]their[/i] concave strippers were the "real deal."

I don't take that to be treating the concept of concave or negative strippers "disdainfully" at all - it's just marketing.
Could you clarify your comments?

Jason [/quote]
30 catalogs! 30 catalogs!!! I never had 30 KC Co. catalogs in my entire life. Maybe 4 or 5. You have me at a serious disadvantage here. :confused:

Joking aside. To clarify, Concave Strippers are not N-Strippers although the principle is the same. N-Strippers are a variation of Concaves and based upon the same principle. In fact, N-Stripper terminology did not even exist back in those days and was never described as such.

Keep in mind, gamblers have their own terminology and magicians have theirs. It appears to me that N- Strippers is a term devised by magicians, not hustlers.

KC Co. made the same type statements as HC Evans in the body of their description of concave work being notched by some companies but I am operating from memory going back 50 years or so. However, I am pretty sure of that.

Your interpretation of the KC/Evans statements may be correct but would be different from my interpretation since I saw some of the type work being sold back in those days. I was actually there and dealt with these companies directly. The concave cuts were somewhat notched by some companies instead of using the nice clean symmetrical concave cuts and were considered of lower quality and inferior. From what I recall, the notched work was more noticeable than the concave cuts but if one knows what he is looking for, they are still both stripper decks and detectible as such.
Message: Posted by: Ross Tayler (May 16, 2015 12:40PM)
Jason,

I take your point absolutely. I suppose I didn't consider the scale of the market to which you were catering. My initial statement could probably be refined to: "They don't strike me as much of a secret amongst people who are interested in this type of work." Perhaps that would be too inclusive? I'm doubting my own judgement now; as you point out, I don't spend a great deal of time around the "amateur magic scene".

You're right in that they don't "feel like a secret" to me (probably specifically because I know about them, yet definitely do not consider myself "more educated than most" - quite the contrary), and this perhaps caused me to overlook the wider picture. Forgive my solipsism.

I hope I didn't cause any offence, I simply didn't imagine that anything of which I was aware could really be described in such 'cloak and dagger' terms, so doubted that the project was in fact Ns. I'm now excited as a school girl, both in awaiting what I'm sure will be an incredibly informative download from yourself, and in the knowledge that I know a secret that the other boys and girls haven't heard yet. Very thrilling.

Thanks for your response.

Best wishes to all,

Ross.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 16, 2015 02:03PM)
[quote]On May 15, 2015, JasonEngland wrote:
I don't measure secrets by how many people know them. I measure them by how many people [i]don't[/i] know them.[/quote]

This is just an opinion here and I don't want to get involved in any lengthy debates on this because it is only of casual and momentary interest to me. However, in my opinion the main element of a secret is it is something that is [I]purposely concealed[/I] from others. Without that essential element of purposeful concealment, it is not a secret even if it is unknown to 99.99999% of the world population. It is simply little known information.

For example, if a heart specialist does not know what N-Strippers are, never heard of them and will never know what they are, he is simply unaware of such information, not because it is being kept secret from him but because such knowledge and information is outside the sphere of knowledge and information that is important or relevant to him.

If I don't know there is a new poker tournament at the Bellagio tomorrow, even if most of the people on the planet do not know about it, it is not a secret to them or me, we simply are not aware of this scheduling, either because it is unimportant or because we did not bother to check. However, it there is a closed tournament known only to five people tomorrow, and they cannot and do not tell anyone else because they are sworn to secrecy, that to me would be a secret tournament.

If I develop a new technique to do a second deal and share it with two other people and they swear not to divulge it to anyone else, that is a secret even though generally speaking the concept of second dealing is known to many. If I or one of the others subsequently write about and publish this technique, even with limited distribution it is no longer a secret since I am not purposefully withholding that information. This new technique may be unknown to most people, even to most card table aficionados, but it is no longer a secret.

So in my opinion it is the [I]purposeful intent of concealing or withholding information[/I] from others that makes something a secret and not whether the information has limited distribution or is relatively unknown.

Just a thought and my opinion for whatever that is worth.
Message: Posted by: Gary Plants (May 16, 2015 03:08PM)
You nailed it Cag.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 16, 2015 06:58PM)
[quote]On May 16, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:


Just a thought and my opinion for whatever that is worth. [/quote]
A lot actually.

It would follow that a series of posts, made on the worlds largest magic forum website, noting not only the existence of N-Strippers, but also of a pending instructional download from a major online magic store and featuring a very well known card-man, along with an announced booklet, to be authored by a popular contributor to the magic forums "Gambling Spot" ... well, that might indicate that N-Strippers aren't really much of a secret after all.

I would guess that 90% of the magicians on the Magic Café probably know [i]the term[/i] "N-Strippers".
Once you know the term, and once you get it in your head to find out what they are and how they work, it's simply not that difficult to fulfill your task.

Soon, with Jason and Arnold's work on the subject to be available, N-Strippers time as an "underground" item, known to only a few - will be long passed.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (May 18, 2015 06:57AM)
I'm just going to put forward my thoughts on the two projects.
I've been incredibly fortunate in being able to see some of Arnold's work on n strippers and it looks amazing. His ability to pull n strippers with such fine work is amazing and his thoughts and applications will be well worth anyone's time and attention, the serious student will get a lot out of it.
Jason has always put out quality items, and though I haven't had in depth discussions on n strippers we did talk briefly in person about them last time I saw him. It should be great.
While I am slightly sad that this work will be more readily available, learning about them from the two good sources I've listed above will hopefully ensure that they are used well. I am also sure those who have invested the time in learning the technique will still be able to fool the normal magician (as I have).
I agree with Cag on his remarks about the secret nature of n strippers, it took me a long time to finally work out how to do the work with normal household items and I knew the right people so I am sure your average punter will not know the method of making and pulling the work.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 18, 2015 11:49AM)
In croupier dealt poker games, players hardly ever handle the deck and so the players in such games are unlikely to nail them in that way. In Omaha the players handle 4, 5 or 6 cards but in Hold’em only 2 and so Hold’em is perhaps the safer game to use them in. Good luck with the enterprise anyway.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 18, 2015 02:19PM)
[quote]On May 16, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:
So in my opinion it is the [I]purposeful intent of concealing or withholding information[/I] from others that makes something a secret and not whether the information has limited distribution or is relatively unknown.
[/quote]

I agree Cag. In fact, I said as much in my first post in this thread: "You need 2 components for something to be a secret: You have to have a large group of people that don't know a specific fact or idea and you have to have another group that is actively trying to prevent the first group from knowing about that fact or idea."

Just speaking for myself, I've actively avoided publishing anything about negs for over 20 years. I know many, many others that have avoided publishing anything on them for 40 or more years.

And judging from the complete lack of good explanations in print (not just casual mentions or someone's private notebooks published 40 years after the fact), it appears there was an unstated agreement among many of the top card guys in the world to not publicize them. Hence, a secret.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Gary Plants (May 18, 2015 02:32PM)
Jason,

Are you just selling "your" work that you have personally discovered or are you sharing other peoples techniques and ideas that have been "shared" with you over the years?
Just curious?

Gary
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 18, 2015 07:21PM)
[quote]On May 15, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:

But I would still note that there are plenty of folks around today who know what N-Strippers are, and how they work.

What I will give you in spades however, is that of the group of people I'm talking about, there is likely only a very small percentage who have any idea about what N-Strippers can do beyond pulling cards out of the deck...

It blunt terms, pulling them is one thing, but knowing what to do with them once they're manipulated such that they project from the deck in some fashion is something else entirely.[/quote]

Amen and great statement. This is something that I have alluded to frequently and what I see as the main problem with the non-hustler magician/hobbyist/demonstrators.

For a hustler, no matter what the move (including N-Strippers), he wants to know what do can he do with it beyond the basic move, i.e. how does he use it once he has pulled the cards or controlled them. I have written about this above because to a hustler that is the most important part.

But 99%+ people on this BB fall into the non-hustler category. They will never use these methods under fire. Their objective is to show, demonstrate or perform instead. However, in my opinion the lowest form of demonstration or performance is to simply show how cleverly one can pull the cards. What I respect much more for non-hustler types is to master the ability to pull the cards deceptively, (or use cuts and shuffles to locate/control the cards), without others knowing you have done so and then use these controlled cards in some way to accomplish a performance or demo objective that fools people. That I can respect.

Just pulling cards out of the deck to show others how proficient you are at doing so is pure idiocy to me.

Of course, the exception to this would be if someone is teaching others how to control or use N-Strippers either by book, video or personal instruction or exchanging techniques with one's peers. In those situations, obviously one has to demonstrate how to pull or cut the cards to control them.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 19, 2015 03:15AM)
Gary,

This video is only the basics - how to make them and pull them, that's about it. It opens with this text: "The information and techniques depicted in this video represent only a small fraction of my knowledge regarding negative strippers. While negative strippers don’t “belong” to anyone, certain specific applications and ideas do. Therefore, there are many other techniques and applications that have been kept secret to protect both the originators (who may not wish to be known) and their creations."

Pretty much everything on this video comes from two sources: a very simple lesson Andy Greget gave me 20+ years ago when I first asked him about negs in around '93 or '94 (I'd been making them very crudely until he showed me one of Terry's sanding blocks) and a conversation I had with Martin Nash one night in the late 90s at the Castle where he and I discussed using his Nash Multiple Shift in conjunction with a simple negative pull. It's very basic stuff designed towards beginners only. Negative stripper experts won't learn anything.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 19, 2015 11:01AM)
Here is an ad off the internet advertising an N-Stripper DVDs and a Jig to make them. Selling information on N-Strippers and the jigs is getting to be a cottage industry.

[quote]N-Strippers

(N-Strippers should not be confused with and are different than, old fashioned, wedge or belly strippers)

Real world demo during a 2 person "mock poker" game:

1. Imagine taking a deck of cards shuffled by anyone. (Paper or plastic cards)
2. It is your turn to cut the cards.
3. During the cut, you (strip-out) and control the N-Stripped cards
(Sorry, but I do not want to discuss publically which cards need to be made into N-Strippers)
4. The dealer then deals the cards after you cut and you are GUARANTEED to win because of how you positioned the N-Stripped cards.

The possibilities are endless and the capabilities and more will be explained to the buyer of the N-Stripper jig, which has been a well-kept secret in the underground for many years.

If you thought that regular strippers were a powerful weapon, N-Strippers are easy to make using the jig, impossible to detect even by people who are familiar with traditional wedge or belly strippers.

The N-Stripper Jig package includes:
> N-Stripper Jig, made of metal
(The N-Stripper Jig is VERY durable and portable, so you can easily borrow a few cards and make them into N-Strippers in a few minutes while in the bathroom or in your car, etc. Once the N-Stripper cards are added to a regular deck, you will be able to control the cards at will.)
> The Jig is designed to be able to make N-Strippers on the wide or narrow sides of the cards OR both if you want to control different combinations of cards
> DVD to show you how to use the Jig to make N-Strippers
> DVD to explain various techniques which may be used to pull your desired cards from the shuffled deck. (NOTE: It will take practice to learn how to pull N-Stripper cards.)

PRICE: $850 plus shipping

This N-Stripper Jig is custom manufactured by the original inventor. We are only acting as the reseller for this product.

As of August 2012, only 4 of the original 10 units are available, the inventor does not plan on manufacturing any more. Therefore, the units are likely to become a collectable, while being a practical and deceptive tool in your arsenal.

NOTE: Gamblers and magicians have used card trimming and corner rounding machines for decades to make various types of stripper cards. A few years ago, a limited edition, Card Trimming and Corner Rounding machine was available and sold new for $3,500. As you may guess, today, that same piece of equipment sells for more than $3,500 because of its rarity.

The N-Stripper Jig can only be used to make highly deceptive N-Stripper cards and the corners of your cards are guaranteed to be perfect.

Please eMail for additional details

We have not worked out magic tricks or routines for the N-Stripper cards. Therefore, it will be up to the magician or mentalist to work out his or her own routine.

FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY [/quote]
In a way, exposures like this are becoming more and more commonplace but that is the nature of things.

Fortunately SFT Strippers are not in books, on DVDs or available at your local supermarket. :rotf: That information is known to a few and passed on by word of mouth only. An Internet search will not help.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (May 19, 2015 11:14AM)
Ah those old people knowing everything and sole holders of the very Truth...
Message: Posted by: SMERSH (May 19, 2015 11:25AM)
Auke Van Dokkum makes an SFT Stripper jig as well as his N-stripper jig.
He does not advertise, you have to email directly.
Though, SFT strippers are only useful for Euchre pretty much.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 19, 2015 11:34AM)
[quote]On May 19, 2015, AMcD wrote:
Ah those old people knowing everything and sole holders of the very Truth... [/quote]
Oh...and I thought it was only those who wear New Age thumb and nose rings and three pointed hats. :wavey:
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 19, 2015 12:26PM)
It's interesting to note for the conversation that Terry had made his original N-Stripper block many years ago now, and it was very quickly copied verbatim by a certain machinist in the Netherlands, a machinist who was not picky who he sold it to, and thus the plate style sanding block quickly became available to anybody with the $300.00 to pay for one.

This N-stripper plate style sanding block (by either of the two makers) has also [i]repeatedly[/i] shown up in popular gambling auction catalogs over the past decade, such that one was easily available to anybody who bothered to pay attention, and who may not have known of the original makers.

It's also of interest (at least to me) that both Terry, Van Dokkum, and Lassen have all made their machines quite public in relative terms. I've not felt that any of the three makers ever made any concerted effort to keep them a secret.

It does seem that people do like to buy and own hardware (even when it's not at all needed to accomplish this particular card modification), and these various N-Stripper appliances tend to sell quickly when they become available.

My point in this thread isn't to disagree with anybody, just to contribute to a discussion putting N-Strippers into perspective, especially as they are on the cusp of becoming more widely known.

My personal preference would be that N-Strippers remained where they were 10 or 20 years ago, known to only a few, and certainly never written about in public forums or books ... and demonstrated on video? - well that would be [i]unheard of[/i]!

(I kid, as Dr.X, Van Dokkum, and Lassen [i]all[/i] had demonstration videos or DVD's included with their associated appliances).
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 19, 2015 12:42PM)
[quote]On May 19, 2015, SMERSH wrote:
Auke Van Dokkum makes an SFT Stripper jig as well as his N-stripper jig.
He does not advertise, you have to email directly.
Though, SFT strippers are only useful for Euchre pretty much. [/quote]

This same "marketing plan" is exactly how Van Dokkum sold his Stripper plates 10 years ago.

He doesn't advertise on his cups and balls website (no surprise there), but he'll sell [i]to anybody[/i] who emails.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 19, 2015 12:58PM)
[quote]On May 19, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
My personal preference would be that N-Strippers remained where they were 10 or 20 years ago, known to only a few, and certainly never written about in public forums or books ... and demonstrated on video? - well that would be [i]unheard of[/quote]

Agreed and the same can be said of other gaffs as well. But, once the Internet crowd gets their hands on something, it tends to become more and more common knowledge over time.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (May 19, 2015 02:28PM)
I would agree about videos.

Me I select who I sell to. And I'm very selective; many can tell you that I refused to sell to them! OK, I can't control people xeroxing, but, all things considered, it's working quite well in terms of "not spreading to a large audience".

But a video is another story. Jason, well, theory11, has far many customers and his video is gonna be on confidential P2P networks approximately 25 minutes after its release. After a few weeks (say 2), on large audience networks and in less than 3 months, certainly on youtube, dailymotion and co. Unfortunately, that's the way it works with videos/CDs/DVDs in 2015.

So far, I have refused to release videos for that reason.

That said, we don't make money the same way Jason and me. If his video is on Internet, I don't think it's a problem for him as I suppose he's not paid according to the number of videos sold. When a jerk puts my booklet on Internet, it's a problem for me as I won't get money out of that one. Different system.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 19, 2015 02:40PM)
At least nobody has exposed the infamous invention of the steam-gun yet and so at their leisure the fraternity can continue abuse the young.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 19, 2015 02:48PM)
Although I don't have the strong feelings on the subject that some have, I think it's quite fair to say that you're both (Arnold and Jason) selling a product which originated elsewhere.

It would seem then, whether either of you make money or lose money is irrelevant (at least to this discussion).
The bottom line is that N-Strippers don't owe either of you a penny.

I wish you both the best of luck with your concurrent N-Stripper projects, but ultimately I don't see any difference between the two.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (May 19, 2015 03:31PM)
You don't see any difference?

- My booklet is gonna be sold to like 125 people. All closely selected. You can bet 99% of them won't share anything. Every Theory11 video is sold in a much much larger scale and is usually "shared" on Internet after a few hours, accessible to millions of people. Me, I see a difference.

- Doesn't owe me a penny you say? I'm gonna detail things I have never read, heard of being taught before. Original material you could say. I'm gonna have a big section about history, devices. Took me a decade to meet the guys. Why would this not worth any money? No one has ever done what I plan to do, so why "it does not owe me any money"? NS have been "invented" like 4 centuries ago you know...

- These projects are "concurrent" because Jason, not because me. He could tell you that I offered him at least 2 times to be part of my project. He preferred to do his own. Everyone's free, right?

- I do that stuff because it's part of my series about sleights/techniques used for cheating at cards that I named Arcanum, nothing else. Talking about NS or second dealing is the same to me, just a topic. I don't do it because someone else or another thing. Just a new volume in my series. If you wanna know, I'll talk about beanshooter, cold decks, etc. in the next ones.

- You're wrong, making money is relevant in that discussion. Apparently NS are a very sensitive point for Magicians, Gamblers, etc. To me, the main thing is not to spread that kind of information too much. Selling to people one by one is a very convenient way to control that. Now, gimme serious money for that project and I swear I won't give a *** about how many people download it or how many get a bootleg or anything else. On one hand, you care about spreading because the less it's spread the more you get money, in another hand you don't care whether it's hacked or not because you get the money first. Do you have a better picture?

About Jason, well, I never met him. I only know him the Internet way: forums, emails, Facebook, etc. We certainly are far to agree on everything lol, but I think we show some respect to each other. I was aware about his project because he told me about it in February if my memory serves well. Besides, we have many friends in common, and we talk... My NS project is at least 2 years older. But I'm slow at writing and it took me years to collect pictures, meet some people, etc. Apparently our projects are very different in essence and not for the same public. Personally, I have no problem with that. My only restriction would be that video/internet stuff I talk above. Jason is adult, is knowledgeable and, as I am, is free to do whatever he feels like to do.

I accidentally revealed his project here. To me it was obvious that the buzz they do on Internet was about NS, but apparently it was not as obvious as I thought to everyone. I sincerely apologize in case I did something bad.

I would have a different opinion than he has about NS though. Maybe my world is different from his, but around me, almost everyone know what NS are! At least, the concept. Maybe you want me to name here 50 sources you can find o Internet about NS? It's not as famous as Madonna underwear, but it's far from being the SECRET some think. The only thing is that they don't know HOW to use them, or how to apply them in Magic or Gambling.

To finish, let me tell you that I hear a lot of noise about NS, for years. Yet, I'm still waiting for seeing convincing demonstrations. As I said earlier, showing off in a 1980's VHS with 0.5mm marks is one thing. Stacking NS in a real game with 0.05-0.01mm marks is another story. The one I'm about to talk about.

Thanks for your time.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 19, 2015 04:54PM)
I think you may have misunderstood my post Arnold.

I was making reference only to what you're both [i]doing[/i], not how you've each [i]chosen to do it[/i].

I do suspect that you're correct when you note that the likelihood of your work being bootlegged widely is negligible when compared to a video released on a major online magic store.

If anything, I would propose that, in fact, the major difference between your two projects is that yours is designed for experts, whereas Jason's is designed for beginners.

While not a point that was specifically relevant to what I was writing above, I will certainly give you that there is, as you noted, a large difference between 125 books and what may amount to possibly many thousands of online downloads.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (May 20, 2015 07:53PM)
OK, no worries.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (May 21, 2015 10:53PM)
AMcD, you mentioned stacking with very fine work.....WOW, I'm impressed. I suspect that you would be stacking to the bottom of a deck.
Still sounds difficult with such fine work.

Hopefully, you will have some ideas which are a little easier to execute :-)

As you said, the real secret is to know HOW to use then to the performers advantage is the real secret ... especially in relation to specific games.

I look forward to what you decide to publish !
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 21, 2015 11:59PM)
Not much use though as sharp eyed players can spot fine work under a genuine 40 watt bulb.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 23, 2015 11:26AM)
[quote]On May 14, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:


From distant memory, there was a type work called "Sturgid" or something like that (I'm not entirely sure) back in the early or mid-nineteen hundreds. Perhaps one of the historians on this BB can clarify this. [/quote]

Cag, the reference is "Turgid".

One side of the card "buffed", the pulp removed from within, leaving the card soft at the location where the work was put in.

The author notes that although this work is invisible from above (the back of the card), it's quite noticeable from the side or end of the card ... at least until the deck is worn, at which point it becomes (presumably) noticeable only by touch.

Noted further is that the work is normally put in on a Bee #67, and further, Johnson (who was a cop) - describes the work as "junk", and goes on to say you, the reader, should as well.

BTW, mentioning [b]The Open Book[/b] ... my personal favorite item in that particular book is how to make suction dice that don't require any physical modification. I've tried it as per Johnson's notes, and it works as well as any percentage gaff. This is a great read for your history bookshelf.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 23, 2015 01:37PM)
[quote]On May 23, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
[quote]On May 14, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:


From distant memory, there was a type work called "Sturgid" or something like that (I'm not entirely sure) back in the early or mid-nineteen hundreds. Perhaps one of the historians on this BB can clarify this. [/quote]

Cag, the reference is "Turgid"...[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification. I sold almost all my books a few years ago and I was relating that type work going back 40 years or so from memory. I was trying to give the BB reader some reference to the newer type work I was indirectly describing which was not marked card work.

You may be giving Jason England a run for the money as far as being the BB historian. Oh well, maybe two historians are better then one.

By the way, when I was a teenager, I picked up some good info from the [b]Open Book[/b]. In fact, in the back or the book as I recall, if someone sent Johnson one or two dollars, he would send a description of a marked card work not described in the book, how to make it and with samples included. I sent away my dollar or two and he sent back a description of "Scratch" work with samples. So as kid, that was my first exposure to scratch work. Of course, back at that time one or two dollars was worth something.

I should also mention, as old as scratch work was, when the shoes first came out in Vegas, a tremendous amount of money was made beating the house with scratch. When the work was finally nailed, most of the half-smarts said they never would have been fooled by it, even though these were they guys who were fooled. I know that for a fact because I was there (indirectly of course.) ;)
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 23, 2015 04:35PM)
That’s a shame. If only you had been their directly, then perhaps you wouldn’t have needed to sell your books. :)
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 29, 2015 05:27PM)
[url=https://store.theory11.com/products/sub-rosa-by-jason-england]Jason England ~ [i]Sub Rosa[/i][/url]
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (May 29, 2015 05:46PM)
:pop:
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (May 29, 2015 11:46PM)
So, even though I am familiar with it, I grabbed the download for Jason. I haven't received the decks yet that come with the product so I can't tell you the difference between the advanced and beginner deck.
Jason goes over a the basics of how to pull, how to make them and a bit of history.
The Lassen n stripper rig and the Dr X devices are also shown. Combination stripper decks are also discussed towards the end. Overall the techniques are fairly basic level n stripper stuff (as Jason has said previously). It's a good little bit of revision. If you haven't seen n stripper work before then highly recommended, if you do use n strippers (like I do) then it's a good bit of revision.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 30, 2015 06:42AM)
Thank you Bobbycash for your purchase - you didn't need to do that.

I hope that I've been clear that this product is aimed squarely at beginners looking for a new tool they were previously unaware of. It was not designed or intended for other experts, as they typically don't need the help in the first place.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (May 30, 2015 07:48AM)
Jason,
I agree whole heartedly that the advertising and you have been fair and clear in that the product is aimed at beginners. Truth is I try and support everyone here at the gambling spot, have always been rewarded for it (special shot out here to Arnold's booklets which have been phenomenal).
It's a great product and I would recommend it to any beginner (and I have met a couple of people here in Australia that I will recommend it to).
(Well recommended if that are that way inclined)
Message: Posted by: Ross Tayler (May 30, 2015 01:51PM)
Fully agree with Bobbycash.

Nicely produced, nicely taught.

Enjoyed seeing footage of the the Lassen machine in use, I've never had that opportunity. Hadn't come across the first machine shown before either, do you have a name for that, Jason?

Also fun seeing the combo strippers. I doubted it when I first read about it, so it was really cool to see it done for real.

Absolutely recommended, especially if you haven't come across Ns before, or are in my position of having learned through vague references and experimentation. Good work Jason!

Best wishes to all,

Ross.
Message: Posted by: Ross Tayler (May 31, 2015 11:47AM)
A question on Ns - is there any chance of the work being but in during play, with a variation on the knockoff stick perhaps?

Clearly this would require the ability to pull very fine work, and would take some time, but I wonder if anyone's ever played with this?

Best wishes,

Ross.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (May 31, 2015 02:34PM)
Yes.
Message: Posted by: jjsanvert (Jun 1, 2015 01:29AM)
Very nice product by Jason England. Can't wait to get AMcD's now...
Clearly a must-buy.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Jun 1, 2015 01:34AM)
I should add to my quick review earlier that in terms of applications, controls to the top and bottom are discussed.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jun 2, 2015 02:54AM)
Ross,

I've actually seen someone do exactly that in a magic situation, not a gambling one. He stole a single card, hit it a few times and then got it back in all without the owner of the deck suspecting a thing.

I don't have the fine touch necessary to do this, but judging from his videos Arnold certainly does and this other guy certainly does. I have no problems believing that it could be done over the course of a game rather easily.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Ross Tayler (Jun 2, 2015 05:20AM)
Thank you both, Jason and Arnold.

Sounds like a very long-term pursuit, but one which opens up some serious possibilities.

Guess I better start refining my touch.

Best wishes to all,

Ross.
Message: Posted by: splice (Jun 3, 2015 07:37AM)
I still remember when I first figured out the technique from a post on the Café. Someone wanted to show off that they were in on the underground club too much and dropped a reference that led me to toy around and figure it out. I found out that I was decades late anyway, what with it being published more than once already by that time.

Jason, you mentioned 2 other videos (from people other than you) on the technique in the pipeline -- any chance for more detail? Not that I want to take away from your video, but it's always nice to get different perspectives too. At any rate, I'm watching yours now and it's unsurprisingly solid like all your publications so far. Looking forward to seeing what the decks are like, in the meantime the Dr. X jig will have to do...
Message: Posted by: websmith2000 (Jun 5, 2015 09:30PM)
After watching Jason's video, I tried pulling the Aces. Pretty weird technique. At first I thought my Aces weren't cut properly because I totally missed. But then sometimes I could grab them. Guess you really have to get the pressures right. I also found that using a moisturizer really helped - but I have very dry hands. Anyway, thanks for the video Jason. I would love to apply this to Jacks or Better (Ortiz), for a quick bypass of the cull. Obviously could be applied to streamline the set-up for lots of effects.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 6, 2015 12:03AM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2015, websmith2000 wrote:
I would love to apply this to Jacks or Better ..... [/quote]

I've never played "Jacks or Better", does it use a dealer?
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jun 6, 2015 08:31AM)
In less than one month on youtube channels. I can even describe the type of fellow: 16 years old, spotty, probably form Asia continent, already exposing hundreds of secrets... He can make $20 if enough viewers show up.

I take bets.
Message: Posted by: websmith2000 (Jun 8, 2015 09:45AM)
Jacks or Better is a gambling themed magic routine developed by Darwin Ortiz where the "dealer" shows how he can use gambling cheat techniques to deal himself the four Jacks but "inadvertently" deals these to other player, then reveals he has the Aces.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 8, 2015 01:44PM)
[quote]On Jun 8, 2015, websmith2000 wrote:
Jacks or Better is a gambling themed magic routine developed by Darwin Ortiz where the "dealer" shows how he can use gambling cheat techniques to deal himself the four Jacks but "inadvertently" deals these to other player, then reveals he has the Aces. [/quote]

They say that jokes aren't funny if you have to explain them.
....so I won't explain mine.

But I do wonder if N-Strippers can be incorporated into a vent'n'dummy act somehow?
Message: Posted by: websmith2000 (Jun 8, 2015 02:01PM)
My apologies for being stunned. I'm so gullible.
Message: Posted by: luvisi (Jun 11, 2015 01:18AM)
[quote]On May 15, 2015, JasonEngland wrote:

Please tell me, where in print are you aware of a good description of how to pull negative work? Sure, they're mentioned in passing in [i]Poker Protection[/i], and they're shown on Malek's DVD, and Marlo put some stuff on "concave" strippers in [i]Marlo's Magazine Vol 5[/i], and they're briefly described in [i]The Castle Notebooks[/i], but I'd love to know of a print source where the method for pulling them is described in any sort of detailed, helpful way. If you know of one, it's news to me.[/quote]

In [i]A Grand Expose of the Science of Gambling[/i] on page 14, "Hollow's and Rounds," the concept of being able to pull trimmed cards from a square deck is mentioned, with a very brief description of how to do so. These are essentially belly strippers that are in a normal deck, so the technique is the opposite of the modern approach, but the basic concept is there.

Andru
Message: Posted by: luvisi (Jun 11, 2015 01:57AM)
Also, I am of the opinion that figure 34 on page 210 of [i]Poker Protection[/i] is labeled incorrectly. The caption reads "Pulling belly strippers" but I believe the photo depicts pulling n-strippers. Do you agree?

Andru
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 11, 2015 09:06AM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2015, luvisi wrote:
Also, I am of the opinion that figure 34 on page 210 of [i]Poker Protection[/i] is labeled incorrectly. The caption reads "Pulling belly strippers" but I believe the photo depicts pulling n-strippers. Do you agree?

Andru [/quote]

Good catch.

The hands in the photo are in the wrong position to "pull" either belly-out or belly-in strippers.
Confirming that statement, there are [i]no cards protruding from either end of the deck[/i], which would have to indicate that this photo indeed represents the [i]beginning[/i] of the move.

If this is the beginning of the move, and the strippers are being "pulled" as indicated, then the only type of stripper that could be pulled in this case would be [b]some form[/b] of n-stripper, with the work put in very close to the end of the deck, located where the model in the photo is gripping deck.

BUT ... perhaps this is one of those small "hidden gems" that authors like to put into their books, in that this photo might indeed represent the the beginning of a extremely rare, little known move, with the model in this case [b]bringing his hands together[/b] in order to execute the move.
(I'm only [i]half[/i] kidding, if I'm kidding at all.)

... but far more likely is that the author was just being obtuse, showing a photo with the model pulling n-strippers, while referencing them in the photo-text as "belly strippers" ... a statement that technically is quite correct, with the n-stripper clearly a derivative form of the belly-in. This line of thinking would be reinforced by the fact that our author is a chap who would be [i]highly unlikely[/i] to make such a verbiage error when discussing (writing) about stripped cards in general.
Message: Posted by: luvisi (Jun 11, 2015 10:27AM)
Errors in books are not always the fault of the author.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 11, 2015 11:19AM)
Agree completely Andru.

I was noting that even if figure #34 in [b]Poker Protection[/b] does represent n-strippers, the text isn't actually wrong, as n-Strippers are a sub-set of belly work in general.

Either way, good catch.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jun 11, 2015 04:55PM)
Guys,

I was actually at that photo shoot. Those pictures were taken in Bill Taylor's house in California. I think you're reading too much into a photo that was designed only to expose the basic concept of pulling belly strippers.

In other words, the right hand in that photo is purposefully out of position so that the camera could actually see the protruding cards. If the right hand was where it "should" be to pull bellies or negs, you would be looking at the back of a thumb.

Jason
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jun 11, 2015 05:00PM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2015, luvisi wrote:
In [i]A Grand Expose of the Science of Gambling[/i] on page 14, "Hollow's and Rounds," the concept of being able to pull trimmed cards from a square deck is mentioned, with a very brief description of how to do so. These are essentially belly strippers that are in a normal deck, so the technique is the opposite of the modern approach, but the basic concept is there.
Andru [/quote]

In my copy that information is on p. 17.

Jason
Message: Posted by: luvisi (Jun 12, 2015 10:40AM)
Jason,

Thank you for the information about that photo. I've wondered about it for a few years now.

My copy of [i]A Grand Expose[/i] is the Magicana reprint. The "Hollows and Rounds" section starts on page 14 and ends on page 17.

Andru
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 12, 2015 02:35PM)
I suspect Jason's copy isn't the Magicana reprint :)
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jun 12, 2015 02:59PM)
Artie,

You are correct. I didn't mean to leave out the ;) that would have communicated that a little better.

Jason
Message: Posted by: KoldoToribio (Jun 17, 2015 04:53AM)
Greetings from Finland!

It's a shame that this secret has been exposed, at least I am glad that comes from Jason and not from some fancy new cool supermodern magician.

I hope that this fever goes by and we can keep working quietly.

Arnorld's coming booklet will be really interesting, I hope to get a copy.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jun 17, 2015 08:18AM)
[quote]On Jun 17, 2015, KoldoToribio wrote:
Greetings from Finland!

[...] at least I am glad that comes from Jason and not from some fancy new cool supermodern magician. [...][/quote]

Despite my supposed high IQ and that philosophizing side of me, it's something I have difficulties to understand. In fact, I just can't. What difference does it make? Why would Jason, Gary and co be allowed to expose, unveil and why others should not be granted that right?

I have respect for Jason, but his motivation about his last video sounds really "thin" to me. If I understand well, he did it because someone else what about to do it? Well...
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 17, 2015 09:35AM)
Nobody "owns" the secret to n-strippers, and nobody has to ask permission to talk about them, or explain to the public why they chose to tip the work (unless they choose to do so).

Tipping gambling secrets (for money) to magicians is a fine old tradition, and nobody really needs any more motivation than to put some extra scratch in their pockets.

As to why certain folks are given a pass when it comes to tipping information, I suspect it has to do with their overall personality (online and in person), and whether they're seen as a positive contributor to helping establish and pass along information related to gambling, cheating, hustling, etc.

Jason has a long history of contributing LOTS of high quality information to those interested in the subject matter, with this n-stripper video looking nothing like a "cash grab", and more like a continuation of his efforts to spread the knowledge.

I would say you've received very little push-back about releasing your pending booklet Arnold, indicating that you're viewed as not in it for the money as well, but rather your efforts are to get the information out there, and establish yourself as an author on the subject matter.

First to market is a fine old tradition as well. He who gets his product on the shelves first, usually enjoys higher sales and lots of initial press (which tends to spike even more sales).

It's all working just as it should, and now that n-strippers are out of the bag in a big way, we can all quite worrying ourselves about the possibility that some magician somewhere might know what they are ... ---- [i][b]Pro-Tip[/b][/i], everybody knows what n-strippers are now, and everybody will be working to establish exactly what they can do with them.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jun 17, 2015 10:35AM)
[quote]On Jun 17, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
[...]I would say you've received very little push-back about releasing your pending booklet Arnold, indicating that you're viewed as not in it for the money as well, but rather your efforts are to get the information out there, and establish yourself as an author on the subject matter.[...][/quote]

Not 100% exact, I don't do that for fame or glory. As said many times before, I started that series because I couldn't find what I needed. They are books the way I would have enjoyed to find some. That's the first motivation. But as you don't have any, I'm afraid you can't "feel" why I started.

That said, I'm not sure you understood what I meant above. But maybe you are not fully aware about the underground war in Magic. X or Y getting nuts because Z is releasing something. X and Y being "allowed" because they are someone, or have an established name. Lemme me illustrate, just a small example. When I said on Facebook what my next booklet will be, about a dozen of great names of Magic busted me out of their friend list. Right away. But when X announces his next thing, the same people go with "brilliant, genius, excellent, at last!". Do you get the idea :)?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 17, 2015 11:58AM)
[quote]On Jun 17, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:

[i][b]Pro-Tip[/b][/i], everybody knows what n-strippers are now, and everybody will be working to establish exactly what they can do with them. [/quote]

I would have to respectfully disagree with that observation. Explorers recently encountered a cave dweller in a remote region of Borneo who when queried about N-Strippers said he did not know what they were...exactly. However, he added he had heard something about them. :P

Maybe we should send him a copy of AMcD's new book when it comes out. Then...[b]everyone[/b] will know... Just a thought!!! :goof:
Message: Posted by: KoldoToribio (Jun 17, 2015 12:54PM)
[quote]On Jun 17, 2015, AMcD wrote:

Despite my supposed high IQ and that philosophizing side of me, it's something I have difficulties to understand. In fact, I just can't. What difference does it make? Why would Jason, Gary and co be allowed to expose, unveil and why others should not be granted that right?

I have respect for Jason, but his motivation about his last video sounds really "thin" to me. If I understand well, he did it because someone else what about to do it? Well... [/quote]

Don't get me wrong, I am not glad with Jason doing the video. When I first found out I was really annoyed and disappointed, but I usually try to find the best part in everything, at least the less worst part of it. I would rather Jason doing the video choosing the information carefully and telling just what he told than another guy telling everything he found out the last two months even if he doesn't find it valuable or understands what he's talking about.

English is not my mother tongue and sometimes could be difficult to find the correct word to express just what I mean.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jun 17, 2015 02:00PM)
@koldo

Don't worry, I got your point now. Wholly. Obviously, it's best that a guy as knowledgeable as Jason did it instead of a "youtube guy", I fully agree. Who wouldn't?
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 17, 2015 04:05PM)
Personally, I wouldn't call being "unfriended" on Facebook any sort of legitimate pushback ... you (of course) are free to see it differently.

I also didn't note anywhere that I understood your motivation for writing. My reference was clearly to PERCEPTION, which is how others see you, NOT how you see yourself.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jun 17, 2015 06:21PM)
Well, it depends who is unfriending you, when, and... what their best friends report to you, lol. Anyway.

For the rest, unfortunately, you can't say (or know) how other people see me, you can only talk for yourself. The opposite is true, it's exactly the same for me :).

I like reading you Artie, so, I'm gonna clarify my position for you.

As I said above, I write mainly because I couldn't find in book form what matters to me. Or, when, I could find some bits, it wasn't done the way I'd have appreciated to see it done. Magic/Gambling in 21st century see books coming mainly from US citizens. I really dislike the way they write most of Magic books. I'm a big fan of books on mathematics, IT, cryptography, science in general, coming from USA yet, for sure, and some books are the just the best ones, real bibles. But in Magic or Gambling, I would have troubles to list more than 7 books which I consider great.

I don't like the style, I don't like the constant advertising, the lack of references, the lack of historical background, I don't like the monster ego of 90% of authors (apparently they know all and USA is apparently the whole world as well) and I don't like the lack of novelty, innovation. People still writing about Erdnase, in 2015, come on!!! Where's the new material? Where's the future?

I'm into cards and Gambling history for decades. I have hundreds, hundreds!, of pages of notes, searches, algorithms, historical references. Why not turning it into books? After all, whining because I can't find something is one thing, but trying to improve it would be better, right? That's just what I did. Nothing more.

Fame, glory? People talk about that constantly here, but if you knew me better, you'd know I don't give a *** about that! I can even tell you I turned down (well, so far...) many offers for seminars, workshops and all. Why is it that difficult for people to understand that not everybody cares about fame? I just don't know. My heroes are guys like Nikola Tesla, Werner von Braun or Marcian Hoff you know, not card manipulators. I couldn't care less to be famous in Magic lol.

I'm not telling you that's it's not gratifying to have a few hundreds of customers appreciating my material. For sure, it motivates me. But I started writing mainly for myself. Now that people enjoy it, it's for them as well, of course. I just apologize to them for being so slow at writing. Main reason is that I work on several projects at the same time. Here you can check the big mess:

[img]http://www.arnoldmcdonald.org/temp/ap.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: popcalinda (Jun 18, 2015 03:57PM)
Great post AMcD!
Message: Posted by: slim23 (Jun 18, 2015 07:47PM)
Very true Arnold.

Slim
Message: Posted by: MarcusC (Jun 20, 2015 07:05AM)
While I share the somewhat conflicting feelings regarding a more public "outing" of N-strippers, I appreciate knowing that it will at least be taught by someone who knows and have studied the subject thoroughly. I look forward to seeing Jason's handling of this, and with a little (or a lot? of) luck I will be able to get my hands on Arnold's work on it as well!
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jun 21, 2015 10:23PM)
So AMcD,

Which to you think will be released next ?
Timing ?
Message: Posted by: Tom Gaudette (Jun 27, 2015 06:59AM)
It doesn't take long to go up on illegal torrent sites, does it?

RIP Secrecy.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jun 27, 2015 08:42AM)
Well, it was already on the networks 3 hours (or 4, I don't remember exactly) after its release...

That's 2015. Kids with no education, kids for whom all is due and must be for free. We've been into this before here and as it's out of topic I won't rant again.

@Jeff

I'm on two booklets at the same time, one of my variant of the second deal and the one about NS. No idea which one will be finished first. The one about NS is gonna be bigger than expected.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 27, 2015 01:13PM)
My neighbor down the road has a 5 year old grandson in Kindergarten. His grandson is thinking of giving a demo of N-Strippers on Show and Tell next week for the class. The teacher wanted each student to come up with something new and unique. I suggested he come up with something different and less well known than N-Strippers. It is too "old-hat" and not very unique anymore. :fruity:

I should add this 5 year old uses jumbo cards for his N-Stripper demos. He has big hands for his age. :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jun 27, 2015 08:48PM)
Not sure how many people go to those torrent sites.....I know that I would not use a torrent unless I did not care about that particular computer :-)
It's youtube you have to watch out for.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 27, 2015 10:28PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Expertmagician wrote:
.....I know that I would not use a torrent unless I did not care about that particular computer :-)
[/quote]

I clicked on the link and got very strong warnings from my computer protection software so much so I thought my computer would go up in flames if I entered the site. I did not go any further nor attempt to look at any of the downloads on that site. :firedevil:
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jun 27, 2015 11:03PM)
The anti-virus industry has made a good brainwashing lol.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 28, 2015 12:48AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2015, AMcD wrote:
The anti-virus industry has made a good brainwashing lol. [/quote]

I have been hit by viruses a couple of times. It was not fun and took some effort to clean up. No LOL on that one or me.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jun 28, 2015 09:05AM)
Use an anti-virus, don't go to websites where you don't control everything and that's it, you will never see any virus on your computers. Never.

Now, don't use genuine software, download games, software, go to porn websites, don't use an anti-virus or an anti-spyware and cry.

Besides, viruses... well. People mix up everything. Usually, you get some malware, trojans, keyloggers, spyers, etc. not viruses. Normally a virus is a piece of code replicating on your computer and which main goal is to destroy files, etc. That kind of behavior is outdated nowadays. Nowadays, hackers don't want to bother you, they just want your passwords or card numbers.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 28, 2015 10:57AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2015, AMcD wrote:
Use an anti-virus, don't go to websites where you don't control everything and that's it, you will never see any virus on your computers. Never.[/quote]

I'll do you one better than that. I simply wont turn on my computer anymore. Now I am really protected. :P
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jun 28, 2015 08:42PM)
Just use an old computer which you do not mind rebuilding frequently :-)
Then scan anything you download for hidden viruses or malware.
Message: Posted by: Banedon (Jun 29, 2015 10:16AM)
Jason,

I am a little confused. The new product from you is the Rosa product. The gimmick is not n-stripping (I do not want to reveal it, it is very clever and rarely seen. I plan on buying one because the decks I made using the same method were destroyed. Plus, the quality of the professionally made ones are probably better than anything I could do now and are certainly better than the ones I made in junior high). Is there another project you have coming out specifically on n-stripping or did I miss it (entirely possible for me to have been master of obvlivious to the obvious)?
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 29, 2015 10:44AM)
You're confused about [i]something[/i], it's just a matter of determining exactly where your confusion lies.

Sub-Rosa and n-strippers (at least as both relate to Mr. England) are [b]one-and-the-same[/b].
Message: Posted by: Banedon (Jun 29, 2015 03:55PM)
My apologies. Artie cleared up my confusion via PM. I had my terms right but I was confusing two different products. Sub-Rosa just got moved up a bunch of slots in my list of priority purchases.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 29, 2015 06:53PM)
(Accordingly from Wikipedia)

The Latin phrase sub rosa means "under the rose", and is used in English to denote secrecy or confidentiality. The rose as a symbol of secrecy has an ancient history.

The rose has sometimes been said to have been the emblem of the god Horus in ancient Egypt. The idea of Horus being linked to the rose probably arises from Greek and Roman cultural cross-transmission of myths from Egypt. Firstly, the rose's connotation of secrecy dates back also to Greek mythology. Aphrodite gave a rose to her son Eros, the god of love; he, in turn, gave it to Harpocrates, the god of silence and a Greek name for a form of Horus, to ensure that his mother's indiscretions (or those of the gods in general, in other accounts) were not disclosed. Secondly, in Egypt, the rose was actually sacred to Isis but this appears to have been during the Roman period of Egyptian history.

Later, the Greeks and Romans translated the god's Egyptian name Heru-pa-khered as Harpocrates and regarded him as the god of silence. The association of Harpocrates with silence and secrecy originates from a misunderstanding of Egyptian depictions of the god. Heru-pa-khered was represented as a naked youth with a finger-to-mouth gesture—in Egyptian artwork this gesture imitates the hieroglyph for child and is used to represent youth, but was misunderstood by later Greeks and Romans as a gesture for silence.

Paintings of roses on the ceilings of Roman banquet rooms were also a reminder that things said under the influence of wine (sub vino) should also remain sub rosa.

More recently, "sub rosa" activities have become a byword for covert operations, usually by security services. Originating primarily in the Canadian and American special forces, this meaning has been gradually spreading to other countries and in particular the United Kingdom.

What a history for the term "sub rosa." It is incredible how history evolves and the ultimate achievement for the term of sub rosa now is N-STRIPPERS?????

WOW!!! I hope we don't get hit with lightning bolts from the heavens thrown by the angry gods.

(Am I missing something here?) :P
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Sep 13, 2015 12:48AM)
Geno Munari's went over this topic in 1994, it's still available (DVD) from Houdini's Magic.
Almost exactly the same items; History; Devices; How to make a deck; and how to use it.

Not as polished as Sub-Rosa and Jason does a better job overall, but one of the issues was that this technique is not under ground.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Sep 13, 2015 09:35AM)
Although rudimentary in nature (it was homemade), Geno's DVD/video was certainly one of the first to bring the general subject to the public conscience in terms of a teaching device that could be purchased, and which would teach something (at the time) that was somewhat unknown outside of the assorted inner-circles.

BUT, there was [i]a lot[/i] of information missing from Geno's video, whether that was by design or by happenstance remains to be seen.

It's also worth pointing out that Geno at no point used any references that would have tipped "N-Strippers" (a word hustlers didn't use at the time) ... Geno used the terms "convex and concave" strippers to describe what was on his video.
Geno's video tended to require the viewer to use the information provided as a springboard to continue to make discoveries on their own.

What I'm saying is that it's a stretch to compare Geno's video to Jason's video.
Jason teaches the viewer the specifics of "N-Strippers", Geno teaches the viewer about convex and concave strippers and leaves the road to "N-Strippers" up to the viewer to discover on their own.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 13, 2015 01:58PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
Although rudimentary in nature (it was homemade), Geno's DVD/video was certainly one of the first to bring the general subject to the public conscience in terms of a teaching device that could be purchased, and which would teach something (at the time) that was somewhat unknown outside of the assorted inner-circles...

...It's also worth pointing out that Geno at no point used any references that would have tipped "N-Strippers" (a word hustlers didn't use at the time) ... Geno used the terms "convex and concave" strippers to describe what was on his video...[/quote]

As mentioned by Artie Fufkin (and if I may expand a little) Munari's video on "strippers" was a ground breaking achievement in the sense that it was the first of its kind on video. Since Munari was originally in the gambling business and opened up his magic stores later, he still had that gambling orientation (especially shown in his casino cheating video), as opposed to exclusively being a magician type. (That gambling orientation is invaluable in my opinion.)

The original Munari tape described the work that cheaters were actually using under fire at the time (and indeed for the previous 100 plus years). He apparently got some good advice from Charlie Miller on this work. Miller was pretty knowledgeable but did not have the "belly" to move under fire, no pun intended. The most important part of the video was the making of "concave" strippers as opposed to "bellies." The magician hyped "N-Strippers" are really a variation of concaves and each has its unique advantages and disadvantages. In fact, there are a number of different ways that the work can be put on, where it can be put, how it can be used and the variations in combinations to be pulled and how applied.

In fact, I was originally shown the use of strippers and how they were used in a Gin game by Jackie Newton (an old time card hustler who specialized in beating other hustlers.) His use of Gin Rummy strippers was extremely clever and very powerful in his hands. Another top hustler, Frankie Z (who taught me some great things for use under fire, both in casinos and in private games), used them differently in Gin but it was also very clever and "off-beat." Both these methods would be different from what most on this board would imagine. (What I learned from people like this was the real key to getting the money was being "off-beat" and having "grift sense," not in pretty work or fancy techniques, which for the most part are often impractical except for demos.)

Another old time hustler showed me how they were using the work in the 21 games in Vegas at the time and it was incredibly powerful and deceptive. (It was used to beat the house, not the players.)

I would say that 99% of expose/demonstrator magicians would have little or no understanding as to what I am referring to here. The huge difference between magicians and cheats is magicians concentrate on the minutia of the work and esoteric techniques which are mostly only valid and usable for demonstrations, whereas the cheats concentrate on how to use the work to get the money. The approach and use is completely different and most will perhaps find this statement incomprehensible, figuring that both are one in the same. I suggest they are not and in some cases not even close.

The Munari tape has some good information although it is not up to the slick modern day production standards of today and therefore perhaps not as exciting or as "snazzy" to most.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Sep 13, 2015 09:13PM)
Cagliostro,

You are 100% right and hit the nail on the head....the real secret of strippers is not the technology or how to pull them. The best information, which is hard to find, is how to use strippers to gain an edge or guarantee a win in a mock card game....because we all know that using strippers in any game when playing for money is illegal.

The academic discussion of how to use them in Gin, blackjack, poker variations, etc. is mathematically interesting to me.

Most magicians will simply want to control the 4 aces.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Sep 14, 2015 11:04AM)
And he's sold almost 3 dozen copies!

Ok, so that number is a bit of an exaggeration. But the truth of the matter is that Geno's tape/DVD, while early and informationally very good, just wasn't SEEN by many magicians. Geno sold them in his shops to be sure, but when was the last time you saw a copy of that tape/DVD sold in any other brick and mortar magic shop?

My original claim that negs were a little-known move outside of serious card guys still stands. The people that read the Gambling Spot may think differently, but apparently you all have a difficult time understanding the concept of a self-selected population.

Incidentally, I'm still willing to walk around a major magic convention (not a convention of card guys) and ask people if they can explain what "N-Strippers" or "negative strippers" are (or any other name you want to call them). I'll pay you $100 for every person who knows what they are. You pay me $20 for every person that doesn't. We'll stop whenever you wish, which I suspect will be very, very quickly.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 14, 2015 04:24PM)
[quote]On Sep 14, 2015, JasonEngland wrote:

And he's sold almost 3 dozen copies! (Referring to Munari's Convex/Concave VHS/DVD). [/quote]

WOW. I did not know he sold [I]that[/I] many. I'm impressed at the success of this entrepreneurial endeavor.

From what I recall, Munari had three or four VHS tapes that he "home" produced, including the one on strippers and of course the market for them was very small. I don't think they were designed for the mass magician market or as a serious marketing endeavor.

I don't even know what Munari's justification was for producing his tapes, whether for posterity or simply to be the first to come out with this info on VHS which was and still is not known to most magicians. His VHS/DVDs have some good information on them but I don't think he expected many sales of these tapes. Since I am not part of the "magic" crowd, I can't say for certain but it seems like Munari's tapes would be of little value to most magician types.

From what I can see, what magicians know about card table chicanery isn't a consideration. I don't hang around magicians but would assume most magicians know little about these things or at most have a cursory knowledge. For example, how many magicians know what an Elevator Hop is?

Personally, I don't think what magicians do or don't know is a valid test of card table chicanery.

[quote]My original claim that negs were a little-known move outside of serious card guys still stands. [/quote]

I agree. In fact, I would say they were almost completely unknown to most, including most members on this BB until David Malik came out with his [b]Cheating at Hold'em[/b] DVD. That revelation made more people aware that there was such a gaff. I believe that even most who knew about strippers did not know what N-Strippers were until Malik's revelation. Of course, more people are now aware of the concept today than even five years ago but for the most part I would also say that although they are more commonly known today, they are still relatively unknown.

[quote]Incidentally, I'm still willing to walk around a major magic convention (not a convention of card guys) and ask people if they can explain what "N-Strippers" or "negative strippers" are (or any other name you want to call them). [/quote]

Sounds like a very exciting and productive pursuit to engage in. What a great way to spend an afternoon or a complete day for that matter. Thanks for the open invitation but regretfully it is really not on my immediate "to-do" list. Doing something like this is really more in the province of: "Different strokes for different folks." :goof:
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Sep 14, 2015 04:25PM)
Jason are you going to be at the Genii convention in Orlando Florida? :)
Chrismas might be early for you this year. :xmastree:
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Sep 15, 2015 11:12AM)
[quote]On Sep 14, 2015, JasonEngland wrote:
And he's sold almost 3 dozen copies!

[/quote]
See ... I've been right all along :)

But seriously, that we're [i]always[/i] talking throughout this forum about a "self-selected population" (to use Jason's term) pretty much has to be an ongoing given.

The percentage of the actual general population that's interested in what we discuss in this forum day in and day out is probably barely above zero ... and even in the magic community, [i]I would bet[/i] (see what I did there) that you're still talking less than 5 percent of the total number of card magicians who are even remotely interested in this stuff ... probably a couple of percentage points lower in fact.

The number of magicians who would [i]simply like to know the secrets[/i] is probably higher, but most of those folks just want the information, and have no intention of doing anything with it.

...so in that sense, three dozen would actually be quite a lot!!

BTW, this post and 25 cents will get you a cup of

:coffee:
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 15, 2015 12:40PM)
[quote]On Sep 15, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:

BTW, this post and 25 cents will get you a cup of

:coffee: [/quote]

Where can you still buy a 25 cent cup of coffee?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 15, 2015 01:19PM)
I should add for the sake of completeness to my post of Sep 14, 2015 05:24 pm above, that even though the term "N-Strippers" and the specific work itself were relatively unknown among most card table cognoscenti and almost all magicians prior to Malik's exposure, anyone who had Munari's VHS on strippers or maybe made up a deck or two of concaves and/or worked with them would readily detect N-Strippers. If they were checking the deck as such, it should be readily apparent to them that there was "stripper" work on the cards.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Sep 15, 2015 06:02PM)
[quote]On Sep 15, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Sep 15, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:

BTW, this post and 25 cents will get you a cup of

:coffee: [/quote]

Where can you still buy a 25 cent cup of coffee? [/quote]

I'm pretty low-rent Cag!
Message: Posted by: ASW (Oct 27, 2015 04:43PM)
I still don't like this stuff to be discussed openly.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Oct 27, 2015 05:30PM)
Not much this forum can do to regulate what people say, and who they decide to say (or sell) it to.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 27, 2015 10:18PM)
I had an exchange with AMcD back in 2013 on this BB regarding N-Strippers. I retained it on my computer because it was quite interesting in my opinion and the members can look back and get all the other posts on that threat if they so desire by doing a search.

This may upset some on this BB, but that is not my intent and this is just my opinion. So for better or worse, here it is:
[quote]
[quote]
On 2013-04-24 20:06, AMcD wrote:

I can pull out almost invisible NS. I think many can confirm here.[/quote]

Yes you can. I saw you do it. No disrespect meant but to me that is a meaningless endeavor. IMO, learning how to juggle balls in a circus might be more productive. This is not to victimize you or to criticize you. It is just my opinion because...

In my opinion, N- Strippers are a magician's wet dream and for the most part useless. They are totally unnecessary if you are going to play "cutters" under fire you certainly don't need N-Strippers. I have seen pros use cutters in a game and N strippers in my opinion are total BS.

[quote]
On 2013-04-24 20:06, AMcD wrote:

I tried them a couple of times in my games but, IMHO, it's too difficult.[/quote]

Of course it is which is another reason why in my opinion they are ********. You can't have work, or any kind of move, that breaks down under REAL game condition.

[quote]
On 2013-04-24 20:06, AMcD wrote:

The main problem, IMHO, is that marks are difficult to hide. 99% of the NS decks I have seen you could spot the work easily. [/quote]

Of course you can. There are NOTCHES in the deck.

[quote]
On 2013-04-24 20:06, AMcD wrote:

Another problem is to put the work live. Not that easy![/quote]

Where do you guys come up with this unrealistic stuff? Put the work in live??? Better to ride in on a horse with a shotgun. That is just as realistic IMO.

[quote]
On 2013-04-24 20:06, AMcD wrote:

I disagree about the fact that pulling out NS is obvious. It depends the technique used.[/quote]

Do you know the deceptive techniques???

[quote]
On 2013-04-24 20:06, AMcD wrote:

That said I think it's still a wonderful weapon and there are many applications possible. [/quote]

I respectfully disagree. It is a wonderful trick and demo item. But a "wonderful weapon in a game." Don't mean to be disrespectful, but have you successfully used them in card games for reasonable money over a period of time? If and when you can, then you can realistically make that claim. Other than that, it is conjecture and once again, a magician's wet dream and the stuff that dreams are made of. [/quote]

I think N-Strippers are a good demo item, both to use deceptively as part of a demo trick and to use in a very inferior way by just by showing how you pull them as an expose.

Can they be use deceptively in a game? Of course they can be used deceptively. So can regular concave strippers be used deceptively but it depends on the game. It ALWAYS depends on the game, how knowledgeable the players are, how observant they are and how cleverly the gaff is played. That is ALWAYS the primary consideration no matter what you are doing.

Are there some clever things you can do with N-Strippers? Of course there are, but there are a lot of other clever things that can be done in a game. So what? It doesn't matter what clever things you can do because if the players can nail concaves, your clever things will be to no avail.

If you can detect concave strippers you can detect N-Strippers. It is just that simple.

I think AMcD's comments are interesting especially since he is going to or has produced a booklet on N-Strippers.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 27, 2015 11:04PM)
How knowledgeable the players are is a mystery. Those who know don’t talk and those who speak don’t know.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Oct 28, 2015 08:23AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2015, tommy wrote:
How knowledgeable the players are is a mystery. Those who know don’t talk and those who speak don’t know. [/quote]

Well, except when those who know choose to speak ... which was Andrews point.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 28, 2015 10:26AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2015, tommy wrote:
How knowledgeable the players are is a mystery. Those who know don't talk and those who speak don't know. [/quote]

It really doesn't take very long to figure out, with a good degree certainty, which players are observant and what they are observant about. Some pay little attention; others lead you to conclude they are looking for specific things. Sure, it can be concealed but most don't try.

Even most pit bosses and floor men in a casino, when they sense something is wrong almost go on point. It is quite obvious. Of course, nowadays with surveillance, it the pit person is clever and devious he will turn his back to the game in question, play the IG (ignoramus) and have surveillance tape the game. But even then, if it is a big action game and something is happening and NO ONE is watching, that is a tip-off in and of itself.

I think Scarne mentioned in [b]Scarne on Cards[/b] (and I paraphrase from memory), that a cheat can sense a suspicious player with the celerity of a lie detector.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 28, 2015 07:46PM)
Regardless of how knowing they are, there are certainly many players around who are as good at spotting bad card, as a bank teller is at spotting a bad bank note.

How many magicians know what a “cornbeef inspector” is? :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Oct 28, 2015 07:59PM)
I find definitive statements made in public forums (especially magic forums) about cheating techniques are never accurate.

There is a hard truth to Tommy's earlier post, in that anybody who [i]really[/i] knows what they're talking about certainly doesn't now, and indeed never has, posted to the Magic Café.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Oct 29, 2015 08:45AM)
I was amused by ASW stating "I still don't like this stuff to be discussed openly".

This thread was sitting idle for 6 weeks and would continue to fall from a HOT topic. So, by ASW posting, he is exposing the thread again and causing it to be read more :-)
Good job ASW, if you were really upset, they you would let sleeping dogs lay :-)

As far as Cagliostro's comment relating to "how & when you use the strippers" is what is really what is important.
Sure, pulling certain cards is clever.....But, how to exploit that ability to your advantage is the gold that a true cardician will want to explore and learn about.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 29, 2015 10:38AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:

...There is a hard truth to Tommy's earlier post, in that anybody who [i]really[/i] knows what they're talking about certainly doesn't now, and indeed never has, posted to the Magic Café. [/quote]

Are you absolutely certain of that beyond all doubt and can you objectively quantify that assertion. :)

Isn't deception in part the art of concealing?
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Oct 29, 2015 01:37PM)
All I got is:

[i][b]"If you say you is, you ain't"[/b][/i]
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 29, 2015 03:04PM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
All I got is:

[i][b]"If you say you is, you ain't"[/b][/i] [/quote]

Now that's objective quantification. I knew you weren't guessing. :confused:
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Oct 29, 2015 07:12PM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
All I got is:

[i][b]"If you say you is, you ain't"[/b][/i] [/quote]

So Doc isn't a cheat, right?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 29, 2015 11:36PM)
Out of all the card players in the entire world what % of them do you think are knowledgeable enough to nail strippers?
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Oct 30, 2015 11:44AM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2015, necro555 wrote:


So Doc isn't a cheat, right? [/quote]
Well, why don't you ask DOC that question.

I'm guessing though, that because you spell DOC incorrectly, you're just a troll.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 30, 2015 01:56PM)
[quote]On Oct 30, 2015, tommy wrote:
Out of all the card players in the entire world what % of them do you think are knowledgeable enough to nail strippers? [/quote]

I would estimate, based upon the most up to date factual and verifiable data available that 86.378% would be knowledgeable enough to nail N-Strippers. Now if you take Jason England's suggestion and ask every magician at a magic conventions if he or she knows what N-Strippers are, that percentage would drop to 79.264%. :goof:

Kidding aside, I would think the more relevant question would be, if you intend to use that type work under fire, is how many players, if any, in the groups you play with would nail stripper work.

As an aside, does anyone here know how many angle's can dance on the head of a pin. There doesn't seem to be much objective data on that one and I have been working on it for years.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 30, 2015 02:04PM)
Duplicate Post
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 30, 2015 03:41PM)
Knowledge is essentially that which raises one man above another and so the players in the game generally do not tell one another what they know. The vast majority of gamblers are part-timers and so they know little anyway.
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Oct 30, 2015 08:56PM)
[quote]On Oct 30, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 2015, necro555 wrote:


So Doc isn't a cheat, right? [/quote]
Well, why don't you ask DOC that question.

I'm guessing though, that because you spell DOC incorrectly, you're just a troll. [/quote]

It's a genuine question. I'm referring to the person who posted under the name Unknown419. If that's DOC, then that's who I'm referring to.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 30, 2015 10:17PM)
[quote]On Oct 30, 2015, necro555 wrote:

...So Doc isn't a cheat, right?

...It's a genuine question. I'm referring to the person who posted under the name Unknown419. If that's DOC, then that's who I'm referring to. [/quote]

Of course Unknown419, also known as "DOC," was a professional cheat. Only a professional cheat would have his picture and real name on his Facebook page, informing the world he is a cheat.

What more evidence would anyone want?
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Oct 31, 2015 12:46AM)
[quote]On Oct 30, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 2015, necro555 wrote:

...So Doc isn't a cheat, right?

...It's a genuine question. I'm referring to the person who posted under the name Unknown419. If that's DOC, then that's who I'm referring to. [/quote]

Of course Unknown419, also known as "DOC," was a professional cheat. Only a professional cheat would have his picture and real name on his Facebook page, informing the world he is a cheat.

What more evidence would anyone want? [/quote]

:)
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Oct 31, 2015 09:25AM)
More than one "real" cheat has found public notoriety and "magician worship" to be more personally satisfying than toiling away shaving dice and trimming cards.

[i]"If you to say you is, you ain't"[/i] doesn't preclude [i]"doesn't mean you once weren't".[/i]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 31, 2015 10:04AM)
[youtube]SL1KbQU30-4[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 31, 2015 01:21PM)
Tommy, you look a lot like Dean Martin. You are not related to him, are you?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 31, 2015 03:24PM)
You sound a lot like Jerry Lewis.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 31, 2015 04:19PM)
@tommy: I think we have the makings of a singing and comedy team here which I don't think it has ever been done successfully before... or has it? :yippee:
Message: Posted by: ASW (Nov 1, 2015 04:40AM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2015, Expertmagician wrote:
I was amused by ASW stating "I still don't like this stuff to be discussed openly".

This thread was sitting idle for 6 weeks and would continue to fall from a HOT topic. So, by ASW posting, he is exposing the thread again and causing it to be read more :-)
Good job ASW, if you were really upset, they you would let sleeping dogs lay :-)

As far as Cagliostro's comment relating to "how & when you use the strippers" is what is really what is important.
Sure, pulling certain cards is clever.....But, how to exploit that ability to your advantage is the gold that a true cardician will want to explore and learn about. [/quote]

My bad.I hadn't even read to the end when I posted, so I had no idea it was dormant. Good for you.

Serves me right for visiting the Café to respond to a PM.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 1, 2015 12:38PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2015, tommy wrote:
Regardless of how knowing they are, there are certainly many players around who are as good at spotting [a] bad card, as a bank teller is at spotting a bad bank note.

How many magicians know what a "cornbeef inspector" is? :rolleyes: [/quote]

I must admit, even though I am not a magician I did not know what a "cornbeef inspector" was.

A Google search tells me one definition of a "corned beef inspector" is a male that is attracted to females that have ginger hair and rough skin. However, digging further it appears it refers mostly to a male homosexual. (I will refrain from giving the other words associated with the term on the BB.)

Perhaps you can enlighten me further since I am apparently one of the few on this BB who didn't know and the only one who queried you.

Okay, does anyone know what a "rat tailed hippopotamus" is and how that term specifically refers to the subject matter of this thread?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 2, 2015 11:45AM)
Cag you are apparently the only one on this BB who doesn’t know corn beef from spam.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 2, 2015 01:07PM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2015, tommy wrote:
Cag you are apparently the only one on this BB who doesn't know corn beef from spam. [/quote]

You have me at a disadvantage since you imply you have eaten spam but I have never had the joy of doing so. :mad:
Message: Posted by: foutriqu1 (Nov 3, 2015 06:50AM)
Did I dream or has an entire part of this thread (or in the cold deck one I can't remember for sure) been silenced by censorship ? Just because a member quoted Doc's answer ? Jeez this is silly.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Nov 3, 2015 08:55AM)
Actually, there's no such thing as censorship on a private forum.
The Magic Café has an owner, and that owner can do as he see's fit to do.

We're all here as if in a private living room, and as such we have a host that owns the house we're gathered in.

That homeowner can ask people to leave his party as he see's fit to.

Those who don't like the Magic Café rules of engagement are presumably free to start their own forums, and run them however they see fit to run them.
Message: Posted by: foutriqu1 (Nov 3, 2015 10:39AM)
Ah here is my friend Artie wearing his guardian of the flame costume again. Or are you still training for the a..ssholes World championships ?
Censorship is the name for the process or idea of keeping things from an audience. It is not necessarilly something done by a state. So there is such thing as censorship even on a "private forum". Next time don't waste your valuable time answering me. It could be better spent chasing trolls, for instance the ones who happen to misspell the name of a banned member. I can't stand those bast//ards
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Nov 3, 2015 11:44AM)
You're simply wrong.

Special snowflakes like yourself, those who yell "CENSORSHIP" at the drop of a pin, are always wrong in their thinking that somehow, here in a private forum, some sort of "constitution" guarantees them (and everybody else posting) the ability to say anything they want.

Of course, that's not how the world works, and the owners of this forum choosing to delete one or more posts is simply how a private internet forum functions.
And "no" there is most definitely no such animal as censorship on a private forum.

Don't like it, or want to make more remarks that have nothing to do with the topic under discussion ... feel free to expand on exactly how you personally are so butt-hurt by mods deleting posts ... but realize that nobody really cares.

You want to whine out loud and call the mods "silly", and me an "ass___e" which you've done ... there, feel better special snowflake?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 3, 2015 11:56AM)
All gamblers would be better off working more.

As far as strippers go there are some games they are suited to and high stakes poker players are essentially gamblers and they shale play any game for high stakes that takes their fancy.
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Nov 3, 2015 06:45PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2015, foutriqu1 wrote:
It could be better spent chasing trolls, for instance the ones who happen to misspell the name of a banned member. I can't stand those bast//ards [/quote]

Someone should tell DOC to stop misspelling his name as Doc.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Nov 3, 2015 07:36PM)
"DOC" is an an acronym for "Dealer Of Cards" ... but don't let a few details get in the way of your ...... whatever it was.

DOC spells it DOC, those who pose spell it Doc (because they don't know what - or who, they're talking about).
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 3, 2015 08:40PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
"DOC" is an an acronym for "Dealer Of Cards" ...

DOC spells it DOC, those who pose spell it Doc (because they don't know what - or who, they're talking about). [/quote]

I think I can solve any possible problem here. Let's take a cue from S.W. Erdnase (supposedly E.S Andrews spelled backwards which some conclude or surmise is his real name)) and use it as an acronym.

Reverse the letters of DOC and call him COD. That will fool everyone and the spelling and capitalization problem has been nullified because it can be spelled either COD or Cod.

Actually I sort of like COD. It seems less pretentious.

So here we have a transformation from the pretentious allusion of "Dealer Of Cards" to the more mundane - a common fish... and that no doubt will drive the DOC groupies crazy.
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Nov 3, 2015 09:17PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
"DOC" is an an acronym for "Dealer Of Cards" ... but don't let a few details get in the way of your ...... whatever it was.

DOC spells it DOC, those who pose spell it Doc (because they don't know what - or who, they're talking about). [/quote]

You're the one who made a big deal out of the spelling, when all I had was a question which Cagliostro properly responded to. So thanks, Cagliostro.

Yes I get that DOC is an acronym for Dealer of Cards, but if he signs his name as "Doc" in his responses, then why make a big deal out of me addressing him as Doc instead of DOC?

Few examples of him signing as "Doc", from a quick Café search (Sorry, I mean "The Magic Café Forums" Search):

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=188&topic=443526&start=90#20
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=188&topic=445147#26
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=188&topic=438123#24
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=188&topic=434231#3

Even the recent post in the cold deck thread, which got deleted, was signed as "Doc". Jason England has referred to him and addressed him as Doc, so has Arnold, Ron Conley, Mr. Z, and I'm sure there are many others if you look through the different threads. DOC himself has started threads as "Doc vs. Conely (A High Level of Discussion)". If you want to give anyone crap about misspelling, give it to DOC.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Nov 3, 2015 09:39PM)
FISH ON!
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Nov 3, 2015 10:10PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
FISH ON! [/quote]

COD it is then
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Nov 3, 2015 10:28PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2015, necro555 wrote:
[quote]On Nov 3, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
"DOC" is an an acronym for "Dealer Of Cards" ... but don't let a few details get in the way of your ...... whatever it was.

DOC spells it DOC, those who pose spell it Doc (because they don't know what - or who, they're talking about). [/quote]

You're the one who made a big deal out of the spelling, when all I had was a question which Cagliostro properly responded to. So thanks, Cagliostro.

Yes I get that DOC is an acronym for Dealer of Cards, but if he signs his name as "Doc" in his responses, then why make a big deal out of me addressing him as Doc instead of DOC?

Few examples of him signing as "Doc", from a quick Café search (Sorry, I mean "The Magic Café Forums" Search):

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=188&topic=443526&start=90#20
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=188&topic=445147#26
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=188&topic=438123#24
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=188&topic=434231#3

Even the recent post in the cold deck thread, which got deleted, was signed as "Doc". Jason England has referred to him and addressed him as Doc, so has Arnold, Ron Conley, Mr. Z, and I'm sure there are many others if you look through the different threads. DOC himself has started threads as "Doc vs. Conely (A High Level of Discussion)". If you want to give anyone crap about misspelling, give it to DOC. [/quote]

This post would give an aspirin a headache.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Nov 4, 2015 06:45PM)
For those who know him.....

DOC stands for "Dice Or Cards" in the masters own words :-)
But, I am sure there are multiple meanings.

I suspect that DOC in Snow White didn't mean either :-)
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Nov 4, 2015 06:53PM)
PS: I wonder who is bigger and gentler....the cod or the man ?

http://www.creativeverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/diving.jpg

In some cases, the cod should be more respected.....especially in their natural environment.

Therefore, regardless if you spell DOC as COD.....the respect should be the same.

Who do you think will win a battle in their own environment...I'll bet on the COD (or did I mean DOC) :-)

-----------

I personally feel that each member of this forum should not only respect each other. But respect their fellow cardicians :-)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 4, 2015 08:21PM)
Being broke more times than one can remember is the life of gamblers. Those gamblers who start getting money often become decadent and like Rome they fall. It is tough at the top.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Nov 4, 2015 11:50PM)
[quote]On Nov 4, 2015, Expertmagician wrote:
For those who know him.....

DOC stands for "Dice Or Cards" in the masters own words :-)
But, I am sure there are multiple meanings.

I suspect that DOC in Snow White didn't mean either :-) [/quote]

That's incorrect I'm afraid, the master speaks out of both sides of his face.
There are dozens of posts here on the Café where DOC signs off with the tag line [b]"The Doctor aka as D.O.C. Dealer Of Cards"[/b]
Nice try though.

Why hey look ... here's one of the dozens of such posts right here, posted here on the Café by DOC on Dec 23rd, 2004 in "The Workers" forum:

[i]To all who may be interested my name is Doc and I'm a card cheat. I've been a Walter Scott student (not like Gazzo) for over 14 years now and I'm writing this review to let all those who maybe wondering if they should purchase Gazzo's punch to do so if you want real good quality work.

I met Gazzo for the first time in November and when I did meet him I examined his punch to see if it was standard gambling quality and to my surprise it was more than what I expected to see. Besides that, his needle point insertion was perfect and extremely small; and I mean tiny like my work or maybe even smaller.

For the record I make my own punch and I'm proud of it but I don't sell mine so there's no need to ask me to do so but Gazzo's punch is of the same quality work and it's more professionally made.

Bottm line. For those who read my review of his book "The New Phantoms of the Card Table" which is located here at The Magic Café under the thread "Would a Cheat Write This" thought I was just braggin' about my ability but I'm a punch-ologist and I'm vouching for this particular punch product.

Oh one more thing...those other punch products that you may see may work but the real hustler's punch their cards while playing, this leave the sucker with proof positive that you weren't cheating because you were playing with his cards.

If you're a real hustler or a collector you would want Gazzo's punch; I sure do and I can make my own.

Signed

The Doctor aka as D.O.C. Dealer Of Cards.[/i]
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Nov 5, 2015 12:50AM)
[quote]
To all who may be interested my name is [b]Doc[/b] and I'm a card cheat.
[/quote]


[quote]
Signed

[b]The Doctor aka as D.O.C. Dealer Of Cards.[/b]
[/quote]

Consistent indeed
Message: Posted by: Vargas (Nov 5, 2015 06:51AM)
Hello all,

As much as I like to read about the who-knows-who and what-means-what, I'd like to make an effort to get back to the subject.

Has anyone here really used them in a game to take it down ?

To all who know a little about games : how do you manage to know in advance the kind of cards that will be used on that specific day ? Still, you'll need a cooler move... Those are a lot of unknowns (419 to be precise.... joke). How does one deal with that ?

If one is using a team to get down one mark, why not just mark the back of the cards... One would save a cooler that way and it will eventually pay at the end (especially at 5 against 1).

I mean, if the only objective of all that is to get the money, there must be better ideas to work on, no ?

Vargas
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 5, 2015 03:00PM)
[quote]On Nov 4, 2015, tommy wrote:
Those gamblers who start getting money often become decadent and like Rome they fall. It is tough at the top. [/quote]

I know you are "loaded" tommy and can't even count all the money you have.

It can't be that tough at the top!!! :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Nov 5, 2015 06:07PM)
Oh look, here's another post from DOC indicating that "Dice or Cards" really wasn't what DOC stood for.

Or maybe - JUST maybe ... DOC should have noted to Expertmagician that - "yeah", it stood for "Dealer of Cards" sometimes, and "Dice or Cards" other times, depending on who I was talking to. Or something just a bit more honest than that which was posted.


From April 30th, 2004 here on the Café:

[i]I would like to tell who ever might be interested in gambling to buy this here book. This book is really a 10 on a scale of 1 - 5. I know this to be true because Ive been a student of Walter Scott for over 13 years now and Im the real thing. Next to Gazzo, Im the best at this technique in the country.
Steve Forte whos the best all around cheat in the country wrote in this book that he never seen anyone do Walter Scotts punch deal in play until he met me. Since this book was already in the process of being published when he actually saw me do this technique, he couldn't change his statement.

Im the only known gambler today who actually uses Walters technique in play. don't get me wrong, other cheats do this move but they do not use Walter Scotts Punch or Technique.

So I said all that to say this, since Im one of the top 10 cheats in the country and Im living Walter Scotts life at the moment (as "The New Phantom of the Card Table)," you can take it from me, everything that he says about cheating and the life we live in this book is true.

Im sorry to say that this book is so good and informative that I don't want you to buy it because of what I do for a living; but hey, it has to be told that this is an excellent and I mean excellent book. If you cheat, you want this book on your shelf as part of your gambling collection.

Im going on record to date and saying that if anyone don't like this here book after reading it and don't think that this is true, you don't know what real gambling is and you don't know what youre talking about.

D.O.C.

Dealer of Cards

The New "Phantom of the Card Table" Has Spoken [/i]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 5, 2015 07:04PM)
We doubt that many self-dealt poker cash games will be found in the home game digest and lone wolf plays with strippers and the like will not very fit the bill in croup dealt games. In such games a lone wolf croupier could do no more or less than steal chips from the pots and a lone wolf player could not do much neither.

Short hand games, on the other hand, such as Kalooki, are always self-dealt and better fit the bill than poker for loan wolfing. High stakes players have took to playing a short hand game called “Crash” and they play it as they fly around the world on airplanes on the circuit etcetera. They are calling it the Bentley of Poker. That is the sort of game a lone wolf ought to be looking into.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 5, 2015 07:31PM)
[quote]On Nov 5, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:

...Or maybe - JUST maybe ... DOC should have noted to Expertmagician that - "yeah", it stood for "Dealer of Cards" sometimes, and "Dice or Cards" other times, depending on who I was talking to. Or something just a bit more honest than that which was posted.[/quote]

How about "Dealer of Crap." The more I read these definitions, the more I like COD, or Cod or even cod...

[quote]On Nov 5, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:

From April 30th, 2004 here on the Café:[/quote]

[quote][i]...I know this to be true because Ive been a student of Walter Scott for over 13 years now and Im the real thing. Next to Gazzo, Im the best at this technique in the country. [/quote]

That is making the presumption that Walter Scott was the real thing and actually was a PROFESSIONAL hustler and not just a traveling musician that did blindfold demos for magicians.

[quote]Steve Forte whos the best all around cheat in the country wrote in this book that he never seen anyone do Walter Scotts punch deal in play until he met me. [/quote]

Steve Forte is not the best all-around cheat in the country. He is not a cheater at all although he has done some "things" in his distant past but he is not in the top cheater category or even close, never was in that category nor at this point in his life would he want to be. Being a cheat is not a badge of honor.

[quote]Im the only known gambler today who actually uses Walters technique in play. don't get me wrong, other cheats do this move but they do not use Walter Scotts Punch or Technique. [/quote]

That actually may be a true statement because professional cheats don't use this nonsense, at least not at the higher levels. This is strictly amateur stuff to excite those who have no real experience around professional hustling.

In fact, Forte stated in the intro to the book in question (Phantoms at the Card Table), that cheats use the punch mostly for information, not to punch deal and that in fact is a better way to use punch work.

[quote]So I said all that to say this, since Im one of the top 10 cheats in the country and Im living Walter Scotts life at the moment (as "The New Phantom of the Card Table)," you can take it from me, everything that he says about cheating and the life we live in this book is true. [/quote]

He has no clue who the top cheats are, what they use or how they operate. He has fooled some impressionable magician/hobbyist types with this nonsense, but he is totally delusional.

More incredible than reading this fool's babble is he has a following of groupies (or cultists) that actually believe and wet their pants reading or listening to this clown's insane statements. I'm talking about adults, not impressionable teenagers. Their will to believe overrides any attempt at rational thought.

[quote] Im going on record to date and saying that if anyone don't like this here book after reading it and don't think that this is true, you don't know what real gambling is and you don't know what youre talking about.[/quote]

Oh, I thought he was going to offer a refund.

[quote]

D.O.C.

Dealer of Cards

The New "Phantom of the Card Table" Has Spoken [/i] [/quote]

How about D.O.C., Deliverer of crap. He also calls himself "the new black Steve Forte." Maybe as Cod, he should call himself "the new black Erdnase."

This guy's naive followers have the same personality characteristics as groupies or cultists. They have suspended rationality for blind belief. They mistakenly believe that if someone professes loudly and often enough to be a cheat and can performs magician type demo moves, even if the does some of them well, that in fact in and of itself makes him a cheat.

Of course, he may have done or do some small time street cheating but he is not even close to the top level. By his own admission, he won't attempt to beat casino games or play in the big professional poker games in his area.
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Nov 5, 2015 09:11PM)
[quote]
Being a cheat is not a badge of honor.
[/quote]

Well said, Cagliostro.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 5, 2015 11:10PM)
Attacking Doc when he is banned and not able to defend himself is not only the act of a cheat but also a cowardly one.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 5, 2015 11:25PM)
[quote]On Nov 6, 2015, tommy wrote:
Attacking Doc when he is banned and not able to defend himself is not only the act of a cheat but also a cowardly one. [/quote]

Responding rationally to outrageous statements and showing their absurdity is not an attack, and an intelligent and objective person would understands that without further clarification.

However I would say your statement is confrontational but when I consider the source it has no meaning. :lol:

Are you still taking your meds?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 6, 2015 01:41AM)
That is a commonplace, vulgar little bigoted question, which only a cheap crook with no sense of fairness would ask.

Have you stopped beating your wife?
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Nov 6, 2015 08:58AM)
Tommy, DOC responded to Cag through Expertmagician, and Cag is carrying on the discussion.
It's not really the one sided affair you propose.

Although I personally don't share Cag's overt dislike for DOC, I don't believe DOC needs any help defending his name in this forum.

DOC's personality and posts certainly weren't those of a lightweight, and his posts were written in a manner that couldn't help but invite both positive and negative responses ... which they did back in the day, and do again now.

DOC's passive/aggressive style towards both his friends and his enemies is what it is (and he and Cag [i]aren't that different[/i] in their respective behavior on internet forums).

Not to put too fine a point on it, if you're going to post implying that Cag is a "cheat" and a "coward" ... do expect him to respond ... or better yet, leave the two similar personalities to their back-and-forths without 3rd party intervention.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 6, 2015 03:04PM)
Re: my discussion of DOC's statements:

I recall that when I first joined this BB and had made a number of posts, this supposedly really nice guy DOC (according to Expert Magician), attacked me in his rude, confrontational and uncomprehending way because he saw there was someone on the board that knew a lot more than he about professional gambling and was not another magician/hobbyist or starry-eyed newbie. While he was on this BB, I continued to challenge him and rebuke him directly when he spewed out braggadocios nonsense that simply wasn't true. Based on a great deal of experience I had no problem confronting him [I]directly[/I] over and over again.

On a positive note, his bloviating does stir up controversy, discussion and excites some as he condemns the members for not knowing anything or not knowing the "real work" that he knows because they are not real cheats like him??? Duhhh!

Personally I enjoyed reading his posts from time to time because he occasionally makes some valid points and at other times his nonsense gives me a good laugh. He does do some of his demo moves skillfully but he seems to be primarily a demonstrator and not everything he does is realistic except possibly in very lax private games.

As far as his confrontational and boisterous manner, that is part and parcel of the street environment he lives in. That's the way people act and talk in his area of activity and to survive you have to act and talk that way also.

I did not kick him off the board for his boisterous, insulting and offensive manner, the admin did. So if he wants to make amends with the admin and come back on this board, bring him on. I'd like to see his posts again and agree with him when he is right and confront him when he blabbing BS.

A search will bring up some of our head to head confrontations which might prove interesting. I had a couple of links but cannot get the data base to connect at this time to those links. I'll put them up later if I can.

By the way, if anyone doesn't like my posts I suggest they either grow up and counter intelligently and rationally or better yet, read and respond to my posts when they are not strung out.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 6, 2015 07:09PM)
"Proficiency in target practice is not the sole qualification of the trap shooter. Many experts with the gun who can
nonchalantly ring up the bull's eye in a shooting gallery could not hit the side of a barn in a duel. The greater the
emergency, or the greater the stakes, the greater the nerve required"

SWE


Cag

If I were you, I would steer clear of them there duels.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 6, 2015 09:28PM)
[quote]On Nov 6, 2015, tommy wrote:
"...Many experts with the gun who can nonchalantly ring up the bull's eye in a shooting gallery could not hit the side of a barn in a duel. The greater the
emergency, or the greater the stakes, the greater the nerve required."

SWE


Cag

If I were you, I would steer clear of them there duels. [/quote]

As a young man I was in the in the U.S. Marine Corps for several years and I can guarantee you we did not shoot at barns.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Nov 6, 2015 10:51PM)
[quote]On Nov 6, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:

As a young man I was in the in the U.S. Marine Corps for several years and I can guarantee you we did not shoot at barns. [/quote]

NOW I KNOW WHO CAGLIOSTRO IS !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NWBW5NTJsk
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 7, 2015 12:09PM)
Interesting Tony45. I was a Sergeant in the US Marine corps but not a sniper. I was actually in a combat battalion and we had plenty of opportunity to shoot our rifles at "live" action.

Hummm...I wonder if tommy, standing in his diapers, was throwing pebbles at barns at that time with one hand while holding his bible, the children's edition of [b]The Expert at the Card Table[/b] in the other. :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 7, 2015 05:02PM)
I wonder if running around Vietnam with a transistor radio sticking out your ear, armed to the teeth in a battalion, shooting at poor villagers who are armed only with a pitch folk and a bowl full of rice, is a duel.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Nov 7, 2015 05:17PM)
Why don't both of you give it a rest.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Nov 7, 2015 06:42PM)
Interesting:

http://www.annalsofcrime.com/02-01.htm
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 7, 2015 07:52PM)
[quote]On Nov 7, 2015, Expertmagician wrote:
Interesting:

http://www.annalsofcrime.com/02-01.htm [/quote]

As Orson Wells said: "Cagliostro was a man after my own heart."

Seems like you divulged my family ancestry for all to see. My great, great, great grandfather, Count Alessandro di Cagliostro amassed many fortunes through guile, treachery, fraud and chicanery. He lived a fabulous life but alas he died in prison at the end.

Which begs the question, is it better to mostly live a fabulous life of wealth and luxury and spend your remaining few years dying in prison, or live a very mundane life, perhaps struggling for money most of the time, trying to make ends meet, and then die in bed never having experienced things that most people dream about?

As Henry David Thoreau said, "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them." Well, seems like Cagliostro lived the song for most of his life.

These are type questions philosophers ponder probably because they really have nothing better to do. ;)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 7, 2015 08:36PM)
A Monte Bank eh. Well yes, that fits that bill more or less. You are certainly closer to Monte Python than Monte Carlo.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Nov 9, 2015 02:00AM)
"Bloviating"?

I *literally* laughed out loud.

Philosophers have nothing better to do?

Oh my dear, Cag, have you lost your wits? Your Verstand? Your [i]rationis capax[/i]?

You're too good for the Café! Well done.

I'm going back to lurking. My puritan heritage prevents me from having so much fun....
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Nov 9, 2015 09:16PM)
Stooooonnnnnneeeeyyyyyy!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Jan 28, 2017 01:29AM)
In Jason England's Sub Rosa video, he mentioned that 3-4 months ago he received word that 2 video projects were in the works on this topic of N-Strippers. It's been over a year since Jason England did the video, and I haven't heard of any another video project having been released. Anyone know of any public releases about this topic since then?
Message: Posted by: CoffeeBeans (Jan 30, 2017 03:12AM)
Jason said that the realease of Sub Rosa made the other person reconsider releasing it.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 30, 2017 07:16AM)
One of them is me.
Message: Posted by: necro555 (Jan 31, 2017 04:51PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2017, CoffeeBeans wrote:
Jason said that the realease of Sub Rosa made the other person reconsider releasing it. [/quote]

I see. I was starting to think it was some marketing ploy, but good to know.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Feb 1, 2017 12:41AM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2017, AMcD wrote:
One of them is me. [/quote]

Nope. Your project was a book. No one reads anymore, so I wasn't worried about you putting a book out (or doing a bad job). Your book would have been interesting and informative (still would be).

Both of the projects were video projects. One from Canada and one from the West Coast of the US. The one from Canada was the one I was really concerned about. That guy has ripped off nearly everyone in magic. The West Coast guys would have done an okay job.

Jason
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Feb 1, 2017 12:44AM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2017, CoffeeBeans wrote:
Jason said that the realease of Sub Rosa made the other person reconsider releasing it. [/quote]

That is only an assumption on my part. I never spoke to the guy that I initially heard was going to make a video about them, but since his project never materialized I can only assume he realized he'd been beaten to the market. He's ripped off nearly everyone in magic including many of my friends so I was fine with torpedoing his project by doing it better than he ever could have.

Jason
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Feb 1, 2017 07:03AM)
@Jason

It was a video + booklet project.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Feb 1, 2017 12:20PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2017, AMcD wrote:
@Jason

It was a video + booklet project. [/quote]

Oh. Never knew that. (Did you ever say that before now?)

In any case, you weren't one of the reasons. There are several people I'd have been happy to see make such a project - you're one of them.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 1, 2017 01:48PM)
The people who have made real money from strippers are the people who over the years have sold the millions the millions of them.
Message: Posted by: RichardIngram (Feb 24, 2017 03:07PM)
I recently bought the Subrosa project via Scam School. Very well done and I am enjoying the concept and the conversation here. I am struggling with the necessary soft touch but I am sure that is lack of practice.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Feb 24, 2017 11:02PM)
I bought Sub Rosa last year. As with everything I've seen from Jason (I've bought all of his card videos from Theory 11), it is excellent. A fantastic introduction for the uninitiated.

I was working in Beijing at the time (where I am currently) and had the Sub Rosa decks shipped to my home address.

I watched the video and I tried putting the work into a few Chinese decks that I bought in a supermarket, but I had little to no success, either due to inexperience with the handling or preparation of the cards, or the poor quality of the decks themselves. I set the idea aside until I returned home and could try the professionally prepared decks that are included in the Sub Rosa package.

I found it much, much easier to pull cards from the included decks than from the decks I had previously made myself. Within the first day or two, I had near perfect accuracy pulling the cards from the included blue "beginner" deck, so I moved to the red "advanced" deck pretty quickly. I could pull from that deck with very high accuracy after less than a week.

I think the work in the beginner deck is obvious fairly obvious, I'm sure I would have noticed that the card were prepared even if I had not known what to look for. You can easily see the notches when looking at the long end of the deck, even if the prepared cards are separated. While the work is lighter on the advanced deck, I'd say it's still pretty noticeable.

I wanted to practice with different values as in Jason's video, so rather than put my own work into the provided decks, I decided to try making a few of my own again. I bought a high quality glass file about as thick as my thumb, and I carefully prepared a few Bee decks myself, all with lighter work than the Sub Rosa decks.

I worked up from the heaviest to the lightest work. The lightest deck is what I'm practicing with now, and it's very challenging. The work is so light I can't detect visually by looking at a single prepared card. If all the prepared cards with the same value are next to each other in the deck, it could be noticed depending on the light and the angle, if you knew what to look for. I have noticed though that if I gently rub my finger tip along the long edge of a prepared card, the feel of the card changes noticeably where the work is put in.

I've been a bit lax with practicing using n-strippers in the last few months and I'm out of stroke. It seems the key to success is a gentle, but even vertical pressure from the fingers along the long edge of the deck, and pulling the card directly out. Not up or down and not forward or backward, directly out.

I usually manage to pull 3 of 4, missing most often when the card are at the top, second or third from top or near the bottom. I have some trouble determining by feel if I get three or four sometimes too.

I think the concept is really cool, and I can see lot of application for magic and gambling demonstrations, but I'd feel like application would be limited in a actual poker game, even loose amateur games. Nobody would stack four of a kind every time. Beyond putting the work into 7 or 8 cards of the same suit for flushes, I can't see any really viable possibilities. If this genuinely has been used in real games, I'd imagine it would be more for something like single-deck blackjack.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 24, 2017 11:52PM)
Chinese playing cards are certainly crap and we have never seen them used in any poker game, despite the fact that we have played in some real dives. We have a couple packs here from Russia and they are even worse.
Message: Posted by: SimonCard (Feb 25, 2017 10:02AM)
[quote]On Feb 24, 2017, tommy wrote:
Chinese playing cards are certainly crap and we have never seen them used in any poker game, despite the fact that we have played in some real dives. We have a couple packs here from Russia and they are even worse. [/quote]

As a Chinese who used Chinese decks for many years, I have to agree that Chinese decks are certainly crap.
Message: Posted by: T.Koldo (Feb 25, 2017 02:51PM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2017, AMcD wrote:
@Jason

It was a video + booklet project. [/quote]


I didn't know about this project, I'd love to learn more about it.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Mar 3, 2017 04:32PM)
Thomas Gilroy,

One of the more subtle applications for negative strippers is to use them to "kill" cards. The target cards are stripped out of the deck and up to the top at some point in the shuffling sequence. Then, a very fair final riffle (or two) is executed. This distributes the target cards (let's say, the Aces) in the upper quarter or third of the deck. The deck is then cleanly cut by either the dealer or an opponent and the Aces are cut out of play entirely.

That means that for that hand the King is the new "Ace" (it's the highest ranking card that anyone is going to have). Imagine sitting on a pair of Kings knowing that none of your opponents could possibly have you beaten (and that no Aces will appear on the flop, turn or river). Imagine knowing that your King high flush or straight was the nuts and not having to fear that someone out there had an Ace in their hand. That's a powerful place to be, especially when you consider it could be done dozens of times over the course of an evening.

Change the game to Gin and you've got a similar situation with another strong edge. Imagine stripping and "killing" 4 or 5 of the most useful cards in Gin: the 6s, 7s, and 8s. You know those cards are never going to show up in the hand. You can safely discard by playing "around" those sequences (it's safe to throw the 7H and 8H if you know the 6H is at the bottom of the deck). It's tough for even a good Gin player to beat you if you have information like that on every hand.

Jason
Message: Posted by: LanceCaffrey (Mar 4, 2017 10:25PM)
[quote]On Feb 24, 2017, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I tried putting the work into a few Chinese decks that I bought in a supermarket, but I had little to no success, either due to inexperience with the handling or preparation of the cards, or the poor quality of the decks themselves.[/quote]
It really depends on [b]which[/b] decks you bought.. Or even which supermarket you bought them from.
Never had significant issues with most of the 姚记 decks, although some of them were bad for everything, not just N's. The cards would split if you tried to faro them.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Mar 4, 2017 10:59PM)
Hello Jason, thank you for your post.

I hadn't considered that approach, and I can now see the strength of such an application.

With that method, it seems there should be no reason to suspect that the key cards have been gaffed at all. The key cards will still appear on the opponents' deals.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Mar 4, 2017 11:21PM)
[quote]On Mar 4, 2017, LanceCaffrey wrote:
It really depends on [b]which[/b] decks you bought.. Or even which supermarket you bought them from.
Never had significant issues with most of the 姚记 decks, although some of them were bad for everything, not just N's. The cards would split if you tried to faro them. [/quote]

Hello Lance. I think the cards were "BCG" brand, though I'm not certain. They were an obviously a knock-off of Bee cards. Borderless diamond pattern on the backs, available in red or blue. Plastic coated paper. I believe that the ace of spades also had bees and a hive on it.

I seem to recall the deck also contained a card describing "the joy of poker" and another card (or possibly the opposite side of the same card) which mentioned that if you assigned the numerical value (1-13) to each card and let the "big wizard" and "little wizard" (the jokers, I assume) be on half, the sum was 365. It then mentioned that this showed that cards were to be enjoyed all year round.

Whatever they were, they were of poor quality. I've since been able to find a supermarket which stocks the USPCC cards made for the Chinese market, the ones with the gold border on the box. I've not bought the knock-off cards again.
Message: Posted by: luvisi (Jun 10, 2017 06:08PM)
In case anyone's interested, I just ran across a description of both how to make an n-stripper and how to pull it in a video from 2004. It's in [i]Richard Turner's Double-Signed Card Routine[/i]. He calls it the "Turner Key Card."

Andru
Message: Posted by: Ferret231 (Oct 29, 2018 03:05PM)
Does anyone know of anybody who has produced a rig to make uniform/consistent N Strippers?
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 29, 2018 03:28PM)
This is multipurpose, but it can be used to make concave strippers

https://www.theperfectshuffle.com/Stripper-Jig/
Message: Posted by: TH10111 (Oct 30, 2018 01:20AM)
If you're looking for something a bit more DIY, this is a good place to start:
https://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/CardTrimmersCollection/InexpensiveTrimmer/InexpensiveTrimmerByRiser.html

I have also had a play with some cheaper methods of construction:
https://th10111.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/stripper-construction/
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 30, 2018 01:51PM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2018, Ferret231 wrote:
Does anyone know of anybody who has produced a rig to make uniform/consistent N Strippers? [/quote]

Several people have done so, but you typically only find them for sale on the secondary market.

Jason

PS: Try Todd Lassen. He might have his pocket-sized trimmer in stock.
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Oct 31, 2018 01:44AM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2018, Ferret231 wrote:
Does anyone know of anybody who has produced a rig to make uniform/consistent N Strippers? [/quote]

I’m sorry to say this but from your words alone I understand that you really don’t know what you’re talking about. First off the rig or jig whatever you want to call it technically is garbage and you’re wasting your money purchasing it. If you’re a magician it’s okay for you to experiment with but if you want to make cards to gamble with, you are totally wasting your money. You can make better looking cards without it. What Jason said about N-Strippers is okay but there is a lot more to it...I mean gambling wise that is. If you want to purchase a pocket trimmer I have one for sale and a card trimmer but they are not cheap.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 31, 2018 09:20AM)
Todd Lassen is currently making 45 more pocket trimmers, around $400.00+ when purchased directly from Todd.

Tell Lassen you want one in the comments section of this post on his blog:
https://coolotis.wordpress.com/2018/09/23/half-dollar-miracle-enjoyment-sets-extra-love-edition/

Lassen may or may not make more - everything he makes is in high demand ... so if you don't want to spend big $$$$ on the secondary market down the road, pick up one from this latest batch.
Message: Posted by: RichardIngram (Oct 31, 2018 10:23AM)
[quote]On Oct 30, 2018, TH10111 wrote:
I have also had a play with some cheaper methods of construction:
https://th10111.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/stripper-construction/ [/quote]

I ordered these a couple months ago based on your recommendation, they took a while to ship across the ocean - but I finally have them in hand to play with. Good recommendation on gaining some consistency. I also recommend Jason's Sub Rosa - no guide really just knock it out so they are consistent with each other.
Message: Posted by: Eoin OHare (Oct 31, 2018 06:31PM)
I will be releasing a new type of N-Stripper Jig in November. If you want to see a few photos of it, check out my instagram. the_perfect_shuffle
Message: Posted by: TH10111 (Nov 1, 2018 12:40AM)
RichardIngram, I'm glad you are getting on well with the templates!



I think this is the instagram post Eoin is referring to: https://www.instagram.com/p/BoF6gAslMp4/?hl=en
Message: Posted by: Eoin OHare (Nov 5, 2018 08:51PM)
This is a link to images of the finished N-Stripper Jig.
https://instagram.com/p/BpvIqPKBnS0/
Message: Posted by: elainevblaine (Nov 7, 2018 08:49AM)
Usually an N stripper fixture makes a small divot in one of about 5 places, on both sides or ends of a card. And to allow that card to be reversed in the deck, the divots that are not dead center have to be in 4 places rather than 2 on each card. Eoin says this fixture can be adjusted from 45 to 90 degrees. Huh? So I really have no clue how this fixture puts divots in cards, unless it's not finished in the pictures and it's just a template, like his other fixtures, where you have to use a razor blade to shave the cards. I guess that still doesn't explain the 45 to 90 degrees, rather than a radius. I honestly have no idea. They are calling this genius.

The Lassen one instantly puts perfectly smooth tiny divots in the card, and allows you to repeat those locations with ease, as fast as you can lay the card in there. And no shaving with a razor or sanding. I think that might be a no brainer for N stripper enthusiasts. It states on his blog that 45 of these are nearing completion, it's his last run of these, and the projected price is $600.

The Lassen grifter tool has a negative template for pinch situations, but where he has taken the card punch, no one has gone there. The depth is set very accurately with ease, the locations can also be repeated with ease, almost anywhere on the card, and it's a tiny device that fits in your pocket. While I admit Eoin's products look very space age, they are not near as practical, or advanced, or thought out, in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Nov 7, 2018 11:47AM)
Eoin, would you be willing to explain the mechanics behind your N-stripper tool?

I'm presuming the removal of material is accomplished either through sanding or with a razor blade? ... but I can't visualize how that task is actually accomplished.
Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Nov 8, 2018 02:22PM)
Eoin, I second the video demo request of your latest N-Stripper device.

I have purchased your Stripper Jig and I purchased Lassen pocket N-Stripper, so I would like to know the advantages of the current item.
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Nov 14, 2018 04:56AM)
Lassen’s pocket N-Stripper is way better than the jig even though the pocket trimmer can be made better with a few tweaks here and there but he doesn’t know how to tweak it in order to improve it. That’s why newer models is coming out but still no improvement.
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Nov 14, 2018 06:25AM)
[quote]On Oct 30, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 2015, necro555 wrote:

...So Doc isn't a cheat, right?

...It's a genuine question. I'm referring to the person who posted under the name Unknown419. If that's DOC, then that's who I'm referring to. [/quote]

Of course Unknown419, also known as "DOC," was a professional cheat. Only a professional cheat would have his picture and real name on his Facebook page, informing the world he is a cheat.

What more evidence would anyone want? [/quote]

I’ve been on here for a very long time, isn’t it true that he challenged you to a who’s the best contest and you haven’t until this day posted any videos of your skills? Please elaborate since he can no longer speak at this forum.

Gamblingman
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Nov 14, 2018 07:24AM)
[quote]On Nov 14, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 2015, necro555 wrote:

...So Doc isn't a cheat, right?

...It's a genuine question. I'm referring to the person who posted under the name Unknown419. If that's DOC, then that's who I'm referring to. [/quote]

Of course Unknown419, also known as "DOC," was a professional cheat. Only a professional cheat would have his picture and real name on his Facebook page, informing the world he is a cheat.

What more evidence would anyone want? [/quote]

I’ve been on here for a very long time, isn’t it true that he challenged you to a who’s the best contest and you haven’t until this day posted any videos of your skills? Please elaborate since he can no longer speak at this forum.

Gamblingman [/quote]

I made an error posting this post believing that it was a recent statement, I very much apologize for my ignorance

TheGamblingman007
Message: Posted by: Eoin OHare (Nov 18, 2018 07:33PM)
My N-Stripper Jig is now on my site.
https://www.theperfectshuffle.com/N-Stripper-Jig/
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Dec 6, 2018 09:05AM)
Your new jig Looks good !

However, I still use the original Dr. X jig. The original till gives me a great deal of control.
I believe the Dr. X jigs are now collectors items and hard to find.
Message: Posted by: Eoin OHare (Dec 7, 2018 02:15PM)
[quote]On Dec 6, 2018, Expertmagician wrote:
Your new jig Looks good !
[/quote]
Thanks.

I'll be ending the introduction price in a few days so if you want to save...
Message: Posted by: Psyfl (Dec 28, 2018 01:12PM)
[quote]On Dec 7, 2018, Eoin OHare wrote:
[quote]On Dec 6, 2018, Expertmagician wrote:
Your new jig Looks good !
[/quote]
Thanks.

I'll be ending the introduction price in a few days so if you want to save... [/quote]

Do you have any estimate as to how long the plate will last?
Message: Posted by: Eoin OHare (Dec 28, 2018 04:03PM)
[quote]Do you have any estimate as to how long the plate will last? [/quote]
The base plate of the N-Stripper Jig is made from hardened 01 tool steel it should last a very long time especially when you use the method of making N’s I show in the video, it’s easy on the edge.  I can’t be really precise about it’s longevity, but tool steel is as the name suggests an ideal metal for tools! I realised that this my be an issue for some, so I deliberately designed the base so that each edge could be used if one should wear. The base can be easily flipped over as well as tuned around, giving a total of eight usable edges. For normal personal use I could see it lasting many, many years, and even then there’s nothing to stop you getting the plate reground if it’s really needed.
Message: Posted by: happy003 (Dec 28, 2018 08:24PM)
Eoin is being humble when he says it will last many years. I don’t see anyone wearing this thing out within 10 years. Especially with the method that is included with the video
Message: Posted by: Psyfl (Dec 29, 2018 07:16PM)
[quote]On Dec 28, 2018, Eoin OHare wrote:
[quote]Do you have any estimate as to how long the plate will last? [/quote]
The base plate of the N-Stripper Jig is made from hardened 01 tool steel it should last a very long time especially when you use the method of making N’s I show in the video, it’s easy on the edge.  I can’t be really precise about it’s longevity, but tool steel is as the name suggests an ideal metal for tools! I realised that this my be an issue for some, so I deliberately designed the base so that each edge could be used if one should wear. The base can be easily flipped over as well as tuned around, giving a total of eight usable edges. For normal personal use I could see it lasting many, many years, and even then there’s nothing to stop you getting the plate reground if it’s really needed. [/quote]

Thank you very much for the info, seems like a great tool although a bit too pricy for me right now.
Message: Posted by: byronblaq1 (Jan 29, 2019 09:02PM)
For those interested:

The Lassen Pocket Trimmers are available for order again just now.

https://coolotis.wordpress.com/2019/01/29/only-took-6-months/

B.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Jan 31, 2019 08:13PM)
Lassen's trimmer above, combined with Tony Millers machined stripper gates will let you make [b][i]any[/i][/b] playing card cut that's ever made in the past, and that [b][i]will[/i][/b] ever be made in the future.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Feb 2, 2019 07:40PM)
I personally believe that the Lassen Trimmer (while great), is not as flexible as the new design discussed earlier in this thread.
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Feb 2, 2019 10:31PM)
Mr. Bones why don’t you post a link to what you’re talking about.
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Feb 2, 2019 11:08PM)
Gamblingman007 wrote: "Mr. Bones why don’t you post a link to what you’re talking about. "
Agree, I have never heard of the Tony Miller machine stripper.
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Feb 3, 2019 10:55AM)
Https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=203&topic=658714#0

RFA Card Trimmer discussion.
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Feb 3, 2019 03:02PM)
Mobius, thanks.
I inquired about an update on another production run.
Awaiting a response.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Feb 5, 2019 09:41AM)
Tony's plates are excellent, although you'll still need Lassen's device if you want to make N-Strippers.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Feb 5, 2019 11:03AM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2019, Gamblingman007 wrote:
Mr. Bones why don’t you post a link to what you’re talking about. [/quote]
Tony takes his link down when he runs out of these plates.
He puts it back up again when he has them back in stock.
So there's no link to be had currently.
I can probably answer any questions about it though, I've had it since his first batch, and used it extensively.
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Feb 5, 2019 07:30PM)
First question: What commercial grade cutter do you have to purchase to work with Tony's plates?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Feb 6, 2019 08:36AM)
It's a rotary wheel trimmer.
The Rototrim Professional M-12.
Although not needed for playing cards, you can also use a larger Rototrim, as long as it's from the "Professional M" series.

Equal to or better than the old Genesis trimmer used by hustlers of yore.
Tony's plates are incredibly well machined, and fit securely fit in, on, and around the various metal components that come stock as part of this trimmer.
Tony supplied two plates, one for fine, and a second for seriously fine.