(Close Window)
Topic: Jay Sankey selling a rip-off?
Message: Posted by: redstreak (Feb 12, 2004 11:55PM)
I just found this trick:

http://www.stevensmagic.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=909

It appears as if Jay Sankey's trick Killer Key is a rip-off of this trick. Is this true? I've never heard of Jay doing something like this.
Message: Posted by: MacGyver (Feb 13, 2004 01:07AM)
One is a transformation: Coin to Key


Jay Sankey's is a transformation, a key and coin switching places.

They might use similer gaffs, but are completly different tricks.
Message: Posted by: Rob Johnston (Feb 13, 2004 02:02AM)
This is from the creator of a great effect.
The creator of "Ultimate Coin ta Key"

"Inregards to Jay stealing the effect of the killer key? He may have come up with this independly but it has ben on the market for 3 years as the ultimate coin to key. If he came up with this independly fine, but he should have done some research as I did prior to the release when I first came up with it. Nothing against him directly but the problem with most magicians is lack of research........"
Message: Posted by: eddieloughran (Feb 13, 2004 06:16AM)
Hi,
I don't have anything to do with either of the effects discussed and haven't used them.
But.
The coin to key is not new and looking at the web link above I would be careful about claiming that it is a particualy new idea.
Has anyone actually got both effects and are they the same. Redstreak who started the topic doesn't seem sure.
I don't really think Jay would steal the gimick. Its not worth it.
Can anyone be sure of how long the effects have been on the market.
Please, lets be sure of our facts before calling people names.
Eddie
Message: Posted by: Mehtas (Feb 13, 2004 08:37AM)
Many years ago supreme magic sold a trick called Key-Boodle.

Same effect same method.

This has been mentioned before somwhere on the board.

HERE IT IS
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=51045&forum=109&post=3507789

So take your pick , which one is a ripp off and which is not.
Message: Posted by: Craig Crossman (Feb 13, 2004 08:37AM)
As an owner of Killer Key, I can tell you that Ultimate Coin-Ta-Key doesn't appear to use the same method of working! Killer key is a NICKEL. Ultimate Coin-Ta-Key uses a QUARTER. To me, this makes all the difference since Sankey's depends partly on the circumference of the Nickel to work! Even though I don't know how Ultimate works, it's fairly obvious from the posted pictures that compare the size of the quarter to the key that it replaces, that the Quarter is WAY too big on the Ultimate key effect to work in the same way as Killer Key!

Just an observation I wanted to point out.
Message: Posted by: Jeff J. (Feb 13, 2004 09:03AM)
Yes, one uses a nickle and one a quarter. Different trick. Watch for my soon to be released packet trick "Twisted Brothers". (It uses Kings instead of Queens). At your favorite dealer soon. LOL
Message: Posted by: Neoglobin (Feb 13, 2004 09:52AM)
Ibd, your missing the point.

Since they aren't the same SIZE, the method couldn't be the same. If you owned Killer Key, you would know what I'm talking about. Obviousley not.
Message: Posted by: Craig Crossman (Feb 13, 2004 01:20PM)
Thanks Neo,
Exactly. Ibd missed the point, although I DO like his sense of humor.

It's as you said, he doesn't know how Killer Key works and therefore missed what I was trying to point out. In this case Ibd, Size really DOES matter! :)
Message: Posted by: Rob Johnston (Feb 13, 2004 02:23PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 09:37, PalmBeachGuy wrote:
As an owner of Killer Key, I can tell you that Ultimate Coin-Ta-Key doesn't appear to use the same method of working! Killer key is a NICKEL. Ultimate Coin-Ta-Key uses a QUARTER. To me, this makes all the difference since Sankey's depends partly on the circumference of the Nickel to work! Even though I don't know how Ultimate works, it's fairly obvious from the posted pictures that compare the size of the quarter to the key that it replaces, that the Quarter is WAY too big on the Ultimate key effect to work in the same way as Killer Key!

Just an observation I wanted to point out.


[/quote]

That tends to happen when copyrights are involved.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Feb 13, 2004 02:57PM)
Note: In the early late '70's or early '80's, Presley Guitar marketed the quarter and key.

Roy Baker's Key-Poodle came with 2 legal sheets of tricks possible with this great key/coin gimmick. It discribed transformations and many effects possible with the trick. I purchased mine direct form Mr. Baker, it was made with a british 5 pence piece.

Presley Guitar did not continue marketing, but I am glad the gimmick is available. It is good magic with everyday items.

Goes well with Koran Ring Flite, too. Now, there is something someone can market.
Message: Posted by: tpdmagic (Feb 13, 2004 03:22PM)
O.k. I have posted about this before. I wasn't sure which one to buy so I contacted Jay sanky in regards to his vs. the Ultimate coin ta key. He said" that he is not aware of anything similar on the market and that he is to busy making his own material. Now he probably came up with this on his own but like it was stated in a earlier post should have researched it. I ended up buying both these effects. The Coin Ta Key, and the Killer Key. They are the same excact gimmick except one is a nickle and the other is a quater. I personally like the Coin ta Key better. Its more visual do to the fact that its a quater. The gimmick its self is old idea. But with old comes new.....Its to bad that Sanky and the creator of the Coin Ta key have the same gimmick out. But I tend to believe that this isn't hurting there business.
Message: Posted by: MagicCarisio (Feb 13, 2004 03:23PM)
Same method! one uses a nickel..smaller key. The other uses, a quarter..larger key!
My..My..when will all the nit pickin end! LOL
Maybe it all originated from an unknown magician or mystic in China!
Gerard
Message: Posted by: niva (Feb 13, 2004 03:43PM)
I would never believe that Jay Sankey would put out a rip off. He always gives credits where they are due and he is a very nie guy.

To some even the idea of using a key instead of another coin is a rip off. Because the same gimmick came out with 2 coins even before.

If he researches for every effect he puts out, he would not be able to release half of his material.
Message: Posted by: Jeff (Feb 13, 2004 03:49PM)
I seem to recall Steve Dushek having something simular out in the seventies or eighties.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: MagicCarisio (Feb 13, 2004 03:55PM)
Niva! and Jeff! very well said!!
Chao.
Gerard

"THOUGHTS HAVE WINGS"
Gerard
Message: Posted by: eggshell (Feb 13, 2004 04:26PM)
I wonder whether you can become too focused on producing new effects and your material starts to become a bit thin and unoriginal. Perhaps Jay needs to rest up a while and stop being so prolific...quality not quantity.

I don't know much about this effect but when I saw his name attached to "Cut Here" a principle which I am sure I learnt out of a comic book I thought "whoah man take a break !!!"
Message: Posted by: Neoglobin (Feb 13, 2004 05:58PM)
"it's fairly obvious from the posted pictures that compare the size of the quarter to the key that it replaces, that the Quarter is WAY too big on the Ultimate key effect to work in the same way as Killer Key! By PalmBeach"

Then

"Same method! one uses a nickel..smaller key. The other uses, a quarter..larger key! "

How can it be when the above poser said the coin was too big to be with the key? It does look so in the picture, maybe its making it look better than it is.
Message: Posted by: magicbyswh (Feb 13, 2004 06:22PM)
I have both they work exactly the same way.
Message: Posted by: Neoglobin (Feb 13, 2004 06:34PM)
Ok finally a confirmation.

I guess the picture was just sized differntly.
Message: Posted by: Rob Johnston (Feb 13, 2004 07:20PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 16:43, niva wrote:
I would never believe that Jay Sankey would put out a rip off. He always gives credits where they are due and he is a very nie guy.

To some even the idea of using a key instead of another coin is a rip off. Because the same gimmick came out with 2 coins even before.

If he researches for every effect he puts out, he would not be able to release half of his material.
[/quote]

Nice guy? Man. Where did you get that? Did he pay you to say that?
Message: Posted by: tpdmagic (Feb 13, 2004 07:33PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 20:20, Astinus wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 16:43, niva wrote:

If he researches for every effect he puts out, he would not be able to release half of his material.
[/quote]

I think you just made the point that most are trying to say about sanky. He wouldn't release half of his stuff if he did his research. It might tell you something about his stuff. Just from what you had said.
Message: Posted by: trickster2000 (Feb 13, 2004 07:36PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 10:52, Neoglobin wrote:
Ibd, your missing the point.

Since they aren't the same SIZE, the method couldn't be the same. If you owned Killer Key, you would know what I'm talking about. Obviousley not.
[/quote]

the gimmicks are the same... the routine included is different... the size is different, but not much different... not enough for it to be considered different....

I think this topic is stupid anyways, I don't think anyof the versions has a copyright, so no one is stealing anything from anyone....
Message: Posted by: tpdmagic (Feb 13, 2004 07:41PM)
So the next question? For those of you that own both as I do. which one do you like better. I like the Coin ta key just because the quater is more visual. I also like the fact that the gimmick matches better to me.
Message: Posted by: redstreak (Feb 14, 2004 01:17AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 20:20, Astinus wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 16:43, niva wrote:
I would never believe that Jay Sankey would put out a rip off. He always gives credits where they are due and he is a very nie guy.

To some even the idea of using a key instead of another coin is a rip off. Because the same gimmick came out with 2 coins even before.

If he researches for every effect he puts out, he would not be able to release half of his material.
[/quote]

Nice guy? Man. Where did you get that? Did he pay you to say that?

[/quote]

What do you mean? Are you saying that he isn't? He is a nice guy. Why don't you think so?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 14, 2004 01:47AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 15:23, Astinus wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 09:37, PalmBeachGuy wrote:
As an owner of Killer Key, I can tell you that Ultimate Coin-Ta-Key doesn't appear to use the same method of working! Killer key is a NICKEL. Ultimate Coin-Ta-Key uses a QUARTER. To me, this makes all the difference since Sankey's depends partly on the circumference of the Nickel to work! Even though I don't know how Ultimate works, it's fairly obvious from the posted pictures that compare the size of the quarter to the key that it replaces, that the Quarter is WAY too big on the Ultimate key effect to work in the same way as Killer Key!

Just an observation I wanted to point out.


[/quote]

That tends to happen when copyrights are involved.


[/quote]

This makes no sense. Tricks are not protected by copyright. They need patent protection. Copyright covers graphic representations and sound representations only.

There may be a matter of ethics involved.

BTW, size may not actually be a factor if the rest of the items in the trick are proportional.
Message: Posted by: niva (Feb 14, 2004 03:35AM)
Astinus, I said he is nice because I met him personally at FISM. No other lecturer at FISM came personally to thank us for our support and for coming to the lecture before the lecture began. His first lecture had too many attendance for the size of the room. I think that speaks a lot.

And TPD, what I meant wasn't that Jay would have to hold a lot of effects because they already existed. But rather because of the amount of time to research each effect. He would than have to take the time away from developing other effects and marketing them. I hope this is clearer now. He doesn't have rip offs. Most of his material is great.

And what I also like about him is that the prices of his items are adequate. Not like many creators which are more for a quick buck rather than toimprove the art of magic. That is also why he is a NICE GUY.
Message: Posted by: Paul (Feb 14, 2004 04:42AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-13 20:40, trickster2000 wrote:
I think this topic is stupid anyways, I don't think anyof the versions has a copyright, so no one is stealing anything from anyone....
[/quote]

Key Boodle instructions were copyrighted by Roy Baker in the seventies...Credit for the gaff rightfully goes to Roy. Later instructions were later copyrighted by Supreme Magic who bought Roy's business when he gave up dealing.

Jay may well have come up with it independantly, he's a creative guy who admits to not being well read magically. However, re-inventing something doesn't always give you the right to be selling it.

In court, ignorance of a law is not considered an excuse. :)

Paul.
Message: Posted by: niva (Feb 14, 2004 04:49AM)
I am confused about these copyright things. Bill Palmer just said a few posts above that it cannot be copyrighted. Am I missing something?

And I wouldn't bother much since the creators didn't.
Message: Posted by: kihei kid (Feb 14, 2004 07:52AM)
O.K. everyone the Kid is stepping in here, first of all Bill Palmer is correct. Copyright laws cover one thing, patents, another.

I think it is pretty obvious as to how this effect works (I could be wrong) and have thought about purchasing killer key over coin-ta- key.

It seems to me that the argument put forth between a couple of members here is that the killer key is more like the size of a key that would be on you’re (and everyone else’s) key chain.

As compared to the size of coin-ta-key’s “key” which would be disproportionate in size to your everyday run of the mill average key. Yes or No?
Message: Posted by: MagicCarisio (Feb 14, 2004 09:24AM)
YES!
Sankey's is the one to get...more deceptive (size) and the routine is different...the coin and key change places from hand to hand!
You can also change the color with a little acrylic paint for a perfect match.
Gerard

Speaking of Sankey...I'm reading a wonderful new book
he just published "Beyond Secrets" A review will have to be posted on this very informative book!
Gerard
Message: Posted by: thehawk (Feb 14, 2004 12:14PM)
Call it what it is " a copy of another effect".
Message: Posted by: tpdmagic (Feb 14, 2004 01:14PM)
This has gotten way out of hand. o.k. weather its a rip off of the effect from the 70s or if sanky ripped of the coin ta key it doesn't really matter at this point. from what I understand the Key Boodle was the origonall, and the coin ta key came out 3 years ago. then sanky came out with his. They are all great effects. The coin ta key is better in my opion just because its a quater. I will say this one more time....THEY ARE THE SAME EXCACT THING EXCEPT ONE IS A NICKLE AND THE OTHER IS A QUATER. The routines are different but heck anyone with a creative mind could have figured out jays routine as his is just the old 5 and 1 transposition...Not origonal. So now that being said I am done posting on this post..........
Message: Posted by: niva (Feb 14, 2004 04:17PM)
Phew! Finally. A nice and good conclusion. I was getting a bit annoyed from these kind of discussions.

Well said.
Message: Posted by: kihei kid (Feb 14, 2004 04:34PM)
Thanks for the help everyone.
Message: Posted by: MacGyver (Feb 14, 2004 04:42PM)
HMmm... Take a really recent trick:

Mexican Revolution and Jaywalk(now I know they are released together but they still are two tricks that could have been released seperately)

They both use the same type of gaff, that is modified slightly, and they each give a different effect.

The same thing could be said about a coin shell and something like Ultimate Three Fly.

Same type of gaff, that is modified slightly, but with different effects.

God, how about different versions of the rising card, or the holdout, or any card trick, or any coin trick with a shell or C/S coin.

The list can go on.

In magic you can't call a gaff that has been around since coins and keys were invented your own.

God I mean bobo's has a no gaff way of doing this(not as clean but still....)

This type of gaff has been around for ages, as well as the trick.

Sankey put out his version along with presentation, a new gimick that he made himself(he is not repackaging someone else's gimick), and a new look at the trick for beginners. That is not a rip-off.

Look at the works of many big name card authors, a lot of their effects are rehashes of other people's effects or new work with a type of gaff.

Just because something has been around doesn't mean there isn't any room for improvement, which is what Sankey was trying for: improvement.


A rip-off is when someone is selling the exact same trick with the same handling, this trick is different enough and personlized to sankey enough that is it new ground, and therefore fine to market.


Would you guys be as mad here if Jay Sankey put out a coin magic book, and in it detailed a Coin / Key transposition? and if you didn't want to make your own gaff you could get them through sankey?

would anyone be outraged at that?

I think you guys are attacking Jay Sankey and his method of putting out a bunch of small tricks as stand-alone packages rather than putting them in a book, or just don't like him in genral.

I'm not a big fan of Sankey, and I know he puts out a lot of crap these days, but this trick is NOT A RIP-OFF. Similer sure, but not a rip-off.

Go check out Osmosis or some personal levitation systems or the self folding bill if you are looking for rip-off's.

Unfortunatly you wont find any big names in magic associated with those rip-off's, so you probably wont want to waste your time debating it on the Café if you can't Smear the reputation of a big-name.
Message: Posted by: MagicCarisio (Feb 14, 2004 05:16PM)
Very well said MacGyver!
Gerard
Message: Posted by: davidcarlo (Feb 14, 2004 11:44PM)
With all due respect, how the heck can anyone keep repeating that they are different effects because one is a quarter and one is a nickel? You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out what tpdmagic finally made clear--they both use the same method. Also, the excuse that one is a transposition and one is a transformation is equally off-base. They can both obviously be done both ways. I like Sankey, but I am not going to stop using my brain in order to support him on this one.
Message: Posted by: niva (Feb 15, 2004 01:47AM)
It's funny really. When a DVD or video comes out with effects that have been around for many many years, no one complains.

What is enough of an improvement for you to make an effect improved. Is Don Wayne's and Sean Bogunia's Dancing Hank an improvement or a rip off of the Zombie Ball. Oh, oh... And Wonder's new Zombie effect. Losander seems to be involved in all the rip offs. Ssshhh!! He also put out a Dancing Broom and a dancing Candle stick.

Hey I too can mention popular names to dirty them.

Oh and the TT. My, my. There are Vernet tts, Hottrix tts, cheap ones...
Message: Posted by: thehawk (Feb 15, 2004 01:55AM)
Very simple it is a rip off. Any mumbo jumbo other than this is garbage and just trying to support what Sankey did.
Message: Posted by: Jeff J. (Feb 15, 2004 03:44AM)
Neoglobin wrote: "Since they aren't the same SIZE, the method couldn't be the same. If you owned Killer Key, you would know what I'm talking about. Obviousley not."

Neo and PalmBeach, For the record, I DO have Killer Key. All you had to do was ask :)
Message: Posted by: manipulator (Feb 15, 2004 11:35AM)
I like Sankey, but I have to agree with davidcarlo and thehawk. If the methods are exactly the same, then there's a problem, regardless of the size of the coin. Also, going back to eggshell's comment earlier, Sankey's "Cut Here" is a bit disappointing.
Message: Posted by: MagicCarisio (Feb 15, 2004 11:39AM)
"Thoughts Have Wings" Where is it all going to go? LOL
Gerard
Message: Posted by: niva (Feb 15, 2004 03:18PM)
Yawn!! :lol:
Message: Posted by: kihei kid (Feb 16, 2004 04:29AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-15 12:35, manipulator wrote:
Also, going back to eggshell's comment earlier, Sankey's "Cut Here" is a bit disappointing.
[/quote]
One man’s trash is another man’s treasure; I love “Cut Here” this one floors everyone I show it to.
Message: Posted by: sleightofhand1 (Feb 16, 2004 05:32AM)
Why are we all getting KEYED up over this??????????
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Feb 16, 2004 06:32AM)
I like the way you COIN a phrase.
Message: Posted by: thehawk (Feb 16, 2004 09:17AM)
I only got a quarter of the joke.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Feb 16, 2004 10:54AM)
Do you lack the cents for the rest of it? :hysteric:

I venture to guess this reaction is not so much specific to the act but rather to the trend. To make money off those unfamilliar with the past (like a lot of the people surfing the magic web) all you have to do is rename something old and put it in a nice package. I'm specifically [b]not[/b] saying that is what consciously happened in this case. Certainly, when it is consciously done it degrades the rich history of magic.

Make your decisions about this routine or the philosophy under which it came about. This topic has run its course in this specific case.

Tom Cutts
Moderator