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Topic: "I can't show you a proper demo...
Message: Posted by: robd (Aug 12, 2015 04:37PM)
...because then you'll work out how it's done".

Am I the only one who raises an eyebrow at this? That new 'Fly' trick has this at the start of the 'demo', and then shows *nothing* of the effect. I sort of feel that if when you show it to me I can work out exactly how it's done, maybe it's not that great a trick to be selling?
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Aug 12, 2015 04:41PM)
I completely disagree with this. Just because it won't fool a magician doesn't mean it isn't a good effect.

If it's entertaining to your audience, then it's a good effect.
Message: Posted by: robd (Aug 12, 2015 04:44PM)
I'm not saying it's not a good effect; more that perhaps (perhaps) it's not worth selling. Unless there's a tonne of presentational tips, etc.

But like I say, it's more an eyebrow raise. Fly by Geraint Clarke shows nothing of the effect at all - literally just the end. You could be buying anything.
Message: Posted by: JoelDickinson (Aug 12, 2015 04:50PM)
I know what you mean however disagree too. Sometimes when magic is performed it's much stronger for a real audience and a video demo may well reveal the method to a magician watching, after all we have knowledge of mechanics, sleights and so on. In this day and age I notice many videos with full demos get ripped apart by magicians, including hints towards methodology. This is ofcourse the reason why a full demo isn't super however it doesn't help you.

What is it which raises your eye brow?
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Aug 12, 2015 04:50PM)
I get why they do trailers like that... but no way I'll pay for it without knowing what it is
Message: Posted by: robd (Aug 12, 2015 05:05PM)
[quote]On Aug 12, 2015, JoelDickinson wrote:

What is it which raises your eye brow? [/quote]

I should be a bit clearer. Of course there are tonnes of great tricks where you can work out how they're done by rewinding and replaying the video again and again, or because you can't misdirect a camera, etc. And in those cases it makes perfect sense to cut out some aspects of the trick in order to avoid exposure. It's also an aspect of selling magic in the modern world - so much is sold by video, and I come from an era where you learnt from books where that wasn't an issue. And there's a lot of 'buying an effect, not buying a method/thinking/background behind a trick, etc'. To be contrary, I've just bought Chris Rawlings drawing duplication with no demo at all. So I'm not quite sure where that leaves me.

Anyway - in this instance, I'm thinking particularly about this trick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4lboMBLMr4

Literally nothing is shown, because 'you'll reverse engineer it', plus there's no written description of the effect either. This seems quite a cop-out, no?
Message: Posted by: DynaMix (Aug 12, 2015 05:15PM)
I agree fully with the OP.

Also we should take the disagreements with a grain of salt if they are coming from creators/sellers of material.

From the consumer perspective I'd just rather see no video than one that is as useless as the above.

The real problem is just that magic is in a state where creators can get away with this. They'll still move units because we don't really demand better. Magic purchasers, particularly novice ones, will always be drawn to "hype" .
Message: Posted by: DynaMix (Aug 12, 2015 05:17PM)
Also there are certainly a few ways to accomplish this effect with pure sleight of hand.
A great method for a "mental" selection (non signed) is a favorite routine of mine off the True Astonishments collection by Paul Harris.
Message: Posted by: robd (Aug 12, 2015 05:20PM)
Rawlins, not Rawlings. Sorry Kris. I mean, Chris.
Message: Posted by: JoelDickinson (Aug 12, 2015 05:24PM)
I too come from the same era, I was a young subscriber to Abra Magazine. Davenports catalogue, magic by post and a JB Magic catalogue was my internet at the time.
I agree the trailer doesn't show much and I haven't clicked the link to read anything just yet but I remember ordering some complete junk twenty years ago. I read about an amazing magic trick where you strike a match and it turns into a flower when you blow it out - the reality was much different.

I once bought a matchbox which could predict any number thought of by a participant, I kid you not. The advert said you ask a participant to think of any number and then you open a matchbox to reveal the number a participant thought of. The reality was a lot different too and for those who suckered in will know what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying this effect is on that level at all. It could be a really good effect, maybe the people marketing this are leaving it to curiosity. After all I once ordered on the back of curiosity only the outcome left me disgruntled and whining about it twenty years later...

Grrrrr!
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 12, 2015 05:28PM)
Surely though, a lot of the older adverts were just as, if not more misleading?

all you had to go on was ad copy - and that's about as much use as a chocolate teapot at times...

no wires
no wax
no monkey
no funk
no style

and then the rest was full of wonders upon wonders...

so you'd buy it, and then cry when it was a badly painted piece of cheap plastic and a pin, glued badly to a playing card or something...
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Aug 12, 2015 05:30PM)
Hey Rob

I see your frustration, but I do explain why, and what the effect is in the trailer. (Feel free to watch it again and listen to me explain/watch snippets of the performance).

It's a signed card transpo / sandwich routine, put simply. With 2 original sleights taught that make it clean as HELL and fooling. No flashes on our footage (as those who buy it will attest to, as they'll see the full performances), but some people will watch it 10x and work it out.

The truth in publishing magic is, that there are some people out there (not you) that reverse-engineer a full performance after watching it many times to guess the method and save themselves the money. I understand it, but it's a shame.

For this reason, magic companies have to make fancy trailers to show enough of the effect to get you fooled, but not too much that you don't have to pay for it. Magicians see things that Laymen never will.

This is a worker. An effect designed, performed and perfected over the last 8 years, and for anyone that's bought my material over the years; Devious, Non-Toxic, Extra Extra, Eden Project, Latch, Revolt .. they consistently tell me how much they've loved it, and how it's a steal for that price.

I don't publish anything that's not been worked for YEARS.

It didn't make sense for me to go jumping around London, as this effect is a true performance piece, and not a visual flicker of magic. The download teaches 2 original sleights that let you achieve a 1 second deception, allowing you to concentrate on a powerful 2-3 minute performance.

I 100% stand by it, and the reviews are pouring in already. With big name magicians like Josh Jay, Greg Wilson, Daniel Garcia, Jeff McBride and more giving me praise over the years for it's mechanics.

"...You cheeky ******* ! That's terrific!"
-Greg Wilson (Asked me to teach him after not catching it after his Cardiff Magic Society lecture)

" Aww man, that's awesome."
- Daniel Garcia (Asked if I could quote him on it at Blackpool Magic Convention)

" Wow! That's real nice."
- Joshua Jay (Shown to Josh after his 2008 Cardiff Magic Society Lecture)

" Excellent! I love it."
- Jeff McBride (Shown to Jeff at Blackpool Magic Convention)

I understand if you want to pass on it this time, but for anyone that does take the plunge for $7, and trusts me and my back-catalogue of past best-sellers on E or other magic sites. I can tell you that you'll LOVE the effect, have fun performing it and leave your audiences blown away.

Here's a screenshot of the review page. Anything that's come in for Fly has been posted and it's all 5 star (Apart from the 2 that were deleted from non-verified buyers that said "your trailer shows nothing, I'm not buying it" (images attached)

Check the product page here to see those reviews and more as they come in : http://www.ellusionist.com/fly-by-geraint-clarke.html

Many thanks for the thread,

- G.
Message: Posted by: mysticalsales (Aug 12, 2015 05:39PM)
I totally agree with Rob. I also watched the video today and really didn't even know what the routine was by the time the trailer was done. I know Cameron Francis does this type of editing too, but he at least shows the layout of the routine and excludes the sleights.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Aug 12, 2015 05:42PM)
[quote]On Aug 12, 2015, mysticalsales wrote:
I totally agree with Rob. I also watched the video today and really didn't even know what the routine was by the time the trailer was done. I know Cameron Francis does this type of editing too, but he at least shows the layout of the routine and excludes the sleights. [/quote]

Please see my post above :) Hope that helps.
Message: Posted by: DynaMix (Aug 12, 2015 05:50PM)
At $7 I think it's great to even get a video (but it would be nice to see more detail) - I normally wouldn't expect one. I didn't realize the price was so low.

Good luck with the release.
Message: Posted by: Doomo (Aug 12, 2015 06:08PM)
Gee. For years I have worked hard to make sure ALL my demos were NO camera cuts, edits, tricky angles and such. The old line " This is how it looks to the audience..." is used to cover a multitude of weaknesses. To my mind that is usually a sign to keep walking.

Tony
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Aug 12, 2015 06:20PM)
[quote]On Aug 12, 2015, DynaMix wrote:
I agree fully with the OP.

Also we should take the disagreements with a grain of salt if they are coming from creators/sellers of material.

From the consumer perspective I'd just rather see no video than one that is as useless as the above.

The real problem is just that magic is in a state where creators can get away with this. They'll still move units because we don't really demand better. Magic purchasers, particularly novice ones, will always be drawn to "hype" . [/quote]
You realize even though I release material I still purchase effects from time to time so it doesn't make my opinion any less valid..

I don't expect to see demo videos, nor does it truly impact my decision because half of them are heavily edited anyways. I think if the effect is described well enough in the ad copy, then that's enough for me.

If they give no info, then I agree that's no good.
Message: Posted by: Mejais (Aug 12, 2015 06:35PM)
I got it, since I liked Non-toxic from Geraint and thought: why not its only 7$.

So first of all: I had no clue what to expect.

After watching the full performance I thought this: its a cool routine. Nothing more nothing less. You can definitly walk around with this and get some great reactions. Its also really easy to do and would fit my style: I like easy straight forward magic.

The routine goes like this: You have 4 aces in your hands, spectator chooses a card, signs it (the method on how its signed is unpractical for me tbh, I really don't like the way it is handled here), you let the spectator choose their color "red or black aces?", you put their card in sandwich between their choosen aces, you do the same with the other spectator and abrahkadabra the card transpos and their card is gone.


So what is my rating for the trick? Not sure tbh. I expected "special magic", like Geraint did with Latch and Non-Toxic (I use non toxic all the time). In the end its just a card trick. It is definitly not "oh my god you need to buy this it is sooooo good you will use only this in the rest of your life". But it is definitly not wasted money and "overhyped ****".

If you want a cool routine to fool spectators this is something for you. If you already have enough routines, you don't need to buy this.

In the end its 7$ for 2 sleights, which are definitly usable in other tricks.

EDIT: rating is 7/10 and definitly positiv! I will use this trick
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Aug 12, 2015 07:17PM)
[quote]On Aug 12, 2015, robd wrote:
...because then you'll work out how it's done".

Am I the only one who raises an eyebrow at this? That new 'Fly' trick has this at the start of the 'demo', and then shows *nothing* of the effect. I sort of feel that if when you show it to me I can work out exactly how it's done, maybe it's not that great a trick to be selling? [/quote]

Probably a mistake to mention a specific product. Distracts readers from your very valid point.

I agree 100% that "I can't show you a performance video because then you'll know how it's done" is a red flag.

I actually once read a review in one of the magic magazines where the reviewer wouldn't even tell what the effect WAS "because that would reveal the method". Incredible.
Message: Posted by: M Sini (Aug 12, 2015 07:43PM)
I watched the demo earlier today. I get that it's a transposition effect but there are many signed card transposition effects...many of which have a trailer showing the actual trick...not just the reactions.
Message: Posted by: EZrhythm (Aug 12, 2015 09:16PM)
Are the sleights angle proof? If not then why not show a performance from an angle that doesn't give the opportunity to sleuth (reverse engineer) them?
Message: Posted by: robd (Aug 13, 2015 03:11AM)
[quote]On Aug 12, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:


Probably a mistake to mention a specific product. Distracts readers from your very valid point.

I agree 100% that "I can't show you a performance video because then you'll know how it's done" is a red flag.

I actually once read a review in one of the magic magazines where the reviewer wouldn't even tell what the effect WAS "because that would reveal the method". Incredible. [/quote]

You're right, that was a mistake and also apologies to Geraint, as it wasn't meant for him to defend at all.

IAIN - totally correct, but I was thinking more about buying magic books I think, rather than video tutorials of single tricks. See, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with buying a trick where, if you were shown it a few times, you'd know the method. And in buying books before video demos, that could be what you were doing, who knew, but there was still a lot to be got out of the books because it wasn't necessarily just a bunch of methods which were being sold.

And for Fly - for 7 dollars you will be getting the experience of someone who has been doing this trick for ten years, knows it inside out and knows how to get the best reactions, technique tips, etc - in other words, tonnes more than just the method. But we can't really see the trick because of a focus on hiding the method.

We're as much a part of the problem I think; not buying a trick because you can work out the method, not showing the full trick because you'll work out the method - all suggests that the only important thing is the method, when perhaps there's much more to be sold, bought, learned than just that. It's pretty clear how 'Whack your pack' is done, for instance, but I'd still buy a video demo of Paul Harris doing it to learn about the stuff which isn't the method.

Unfortunately it also means that sometimes crappy tricks which won't fool anyone have something to hide behind. (Again, I don't mean Fly).
Message: Posted by: Myke Phillips (Aug 13, 2015 03:52AM)
Geraiant performed this for me in London after the secret filming of the Derren Brown penguin lecture and I thought it was brilliant. The effect seamed impossible to me.

He also got a girls phone number and a kiss in record time. Imagine this, we are leaving the taxi office to go home and a girl meets us on our way out the door. Geraiant says but a few words and she's all over him like a rash. We are talking 5 seconds and Bobs your uncle, Fannys your aunt, he's in there.

Myke
X
Message: Posted by: tmoca (Aug 13, 2015 06:57AM)
[quote]On Aug 12, 2015, robd wrote:
...because then you'll work out how it's done".

Am I the only one who raises an eyebrow at this? That new 'Fly' trick has this at the start of the 'demo', and then shows *nothing* of the effect. [/quote]

Agree. Why in the H@ll is there even video if you can't show the darn effect? Why waste my time? Just write up the description and leave it at that. It's like the "demos" that show nothing but animated text of quotes or telling you how your audience will feel. What a waste.

With that said, even the abbreviated description that IS there, still doesn't tell you how it looks. They just say what is happening...a card goes from one had to another. There are HUNDREDS of effects that do this and they can all look different!

Show us a video of what it looks like and if you can't then tell us what the heck is happening or you don't get my money. :)
Message: Posted by: DynaMix (Aug 13, 2015 08:11AM)
[quote]On Aug 12, 2015, TheDirectionalist wrote:
[quote]On Aug 12, 2015, DynaMix wrote:
I agree fully with the OP.

Also we should take the disagreements with a grain of salt if they are coming from creators/sellers of material.

From the consumer perspective I'd just rather see no video than one that is as useless as the above.

The real problem is just that magic is in a state where creators can get away with this. They'll still move units because we don't really demand better. Magic purchasers, particularly novice ones, will always be drawn to "hype" . [/quote]
You realize even though I release material I still purchase effects from time to time so it doesn't make my opinion any less valid..

I don't expect to see demo videos, nor does it truly impact my decision because half of them are heavily edited anyways. I think if the effect is described well enough in the ad copy, then that's enough for me.

If they give no info, then I agree that's no good. [/quote]

Yes obviously. I think everyone realizes that.
The grain of salt refers to the fact that a creator will always have motivation to defend ill practices of other creators, IF they want to.
Non creators will never see the value of a poorly made video. Just the way it is.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Aug 13, 2015 10:55AM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, tmoca wrote:

...Show us a video of what it looks like and if you can't then tell us what the heck is happening or you don't get my money. :) [/quote]

I don't want your money. I just want to share my original magic effects.

In fact, I didn't even start this thread about my work. Someone else did.

For those that did buy it, they're loving it (ALL REVIEWS POSTED HERE : http://www.ellusionist.com/review/product/list/id/2015/category/3/#customer-reviews ) and I'm happy that they do.

My goal with publishing magic isn't to make money, if it was, I wouldn't be publishing downloads for $4 on the wire, or $7 on Ellusionist that people would be happier to pay 3x as much for.

My goal here is to share my magic, with value attributed to it, to the largest audience I can.... In the hope that people love it and go and perform it.

Keep your money, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Those who buy it will love it, and those who aren't curious enough to care, then that's okay too.

Thanks for your time though tmoca.

- G
Message: Posted by: RNK (Aug 13, 2015 10:58AM)
[quote]On Aug 12, 2015, Doomo wrote:
Gee. For years I have worked hard to make sure ALL my demos were NO camera cuts, edits, tricky angles and such. The old line " This is how it looks to the audience..." is used to cover a multitude of weaknesses. To my mind that is usually a sign to keep walking.

Tony [/quote]


Agreed. And as far as "go read reviews on Ellusionist...." yes, of course Geraint wants you to read them because they take down any bad reviews. Sad. Just like what happened in CHANGE
Message: Posted by: Solert (Aug 13, 2015 11:08AM)
I totally agree with you tmoca. If you don't show the uncut effet and/or performance why bother releasing a preview video?
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Aug 13, 2015 11:15AM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, Myke Phillips wrote:
Geraiant performed this for me in London after the secret filming of the Derren Brown penguin lecture and I thought it was brilliant. The effect seamed impossible to me.

He also got a girls phone number and a kiss in record time. Imagine this, we are leaving the taxi office to go home and a girl meets us on our way out the door. Geraiant says but a few words and she's all over him like a rash. We are talking 5 seconds and Bobs your uncle, Fannys your aunt, he's in there.

Myke
X [/quote]

Thanks Mike, but that 2nd effect you mentioned isn't taught on this download. Hope you're well.

- G
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Aug 13, 2015 11:19AM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, RNK wrote:

Agreed. And as far as "go read reviews on Ellusionist...." yes, of course Geraint wants you to read them because they take down any bad reviews. Sad. Just like what happened in CHANGE [/quote]

Bob Kowalkowski, you are sadly mistaken. Feel free to skype me and I'll screenshare our review panel for FLY. You can see the 4 and 5 star reviews that have been posted, and the only bad reviews are from NON-buyers who are moaning about the trailer.

I look forward to your PM. I'm available to Skype for the next 3 hours.

- G.
Message: Posted by: ixnay66 (Aug 13, 2015 11:55AM)
Sounds like a good trick to submit to Genii or Magic Magazine.
Message: Posted by: robd (Aug 13, 2015 12:07PM)
Prob shouldn't have mentioned Fly. Sorry Geraint, not really what I was getting at.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Aug 13, 2015 01:57PM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, robd wrote:
Prob shouldn't have mentioned Fly. Sorry Geraint, not really what I was getting at. [/quote]

I accept your apology. That's big of you to come forward with that.
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Aug 13, 2015 01:58PM)
Once I went to a conference to watch a Lennart Greeen lecture. I watched more, but I the reason I was there was Lennart Green.

After some of his tricks and explanations I was bananas.
One of those made me go crazy. It was just so good! It was the second time I was watching it, I've sawn it the night before on his full act. I knew he would follow the trick with the explanation, but my mind was racing. Then it hit me. Just before he started to explain I worked out the method. And then I confirmed it with the explanation. This effect is not on video (I'm not sure, but I think it's not). It's published on Lennart's conference notes (which are great, by the way).

The point is, if this effect was on video, after watching it two times I would get it. And I'll probably wouldn't buy it. At that time I didn't have the money (nor the maturity - I was just a kid) to spend in something I knew how to do. And this doesn't make this magic effect any less powerful. It's a great effect. I always get awesome reactions with it, and I've ben performing it for more than six years now.


Also, consider this:
If you saw a complete demo video of "The flight of the paper balls" (Slydini), would you buy the effect? You can TOTALY see what is happening and the method is completely obvious. Would you buy the effect?

Some will answer: "If Slydini was teaching it in video OF COURSE I would buy the effect" (SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!)

What if the effect was exactly the same, but it wasn't a Slydini creation, but some other less known magician. Or an unknown magician. Would you buy it then? After seeing "the complete demo where you can totally SEE the method"?
Do you think new guys in magic would give any value for that effect? Or would it become another "Flight of the paper balls explained" youtube poorly done video?


Just think about it. I know it sucks to not know what your are actually buying. But hey, a lot of effects are that way. The first book of magic you ever bought was probably like that. I bet you didn't know anything about magic then, and even so you bought it.

With that said, I know there are some crappy demo videos that sell "miracles" but deliver "my uncle does this" kind of magic. Or even magic with lots and lots of restrictions. We have to learn to sort out which ones are good and which ones are bad. And, maybe trust some reviews... Or buy magic only from trusted resources or dealers. But you shouldn't simply rule out that because a demo does not show the complete effect, it means it's a bad piece of magic.

About FLY,
After watching the video, I knew it was a transposition, and I knew it had something to do with sandwiched cards. and it seems like a good effect.
Of course, you can't find out much about the effect only with the video, but I guess you would never be discussing this effect if the video wasn't out there.

As terrible as a video can be, it IS the main form of publicity on the internet. How many of you really take the time to read and add about a magic trick without a link to a video? How many have you seen like that in the past 5 years?
Message: Posted by: robd (Aug 13, 2015 02:05PM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, robd wrote:
Prob shouldn't have mentioned Fly. Sorry Geraint, not really what I was getting at. [/quote]

I accept your apology. That's big of you to come forward with that. [/quote]

It wasn't aimed at you or the trick really; like I said in the thread, there's probably a lot in the download which isn't just the method. Yours was just the one I happened to see which made me think about it. The post it note peek thing which Atlas was demoing was another one - once you saw the actual trick it was clear how it was done.

My point I guess (and as usual I'm working it out as I go along) is that I think it's OK to see how the trick's done if you can, because there's more value in a $7 download than just the method. But when a demo specifically doesn't show you anything about a trick it's a worry that the trick is hiding behind that 'disclaimer'. I'm sure yours isn't, as Gregory Wilson wouldn't have been impressed with it. I think it's crazy to not show a demo though - someone will have their own on youtube in no time, and it won't be done anywhere near as well as yours is. I think the worry about working out the method is that whole 'guarding an empty safe' thing really.
Message: Posted by: Luke Dancy (Aug 13, 2015 02:44PM)
Magic is in a weird spot these days....

Put out a trailer that fools you and often pepole complain about the method.

Put out a trailer that shows the effect, and fools 'real people', and magicians go on socials or YouTube bragging and dissecting the method to the public.

I remember the days when all we had was ad copy to imagine what an effect was and what it could be.

I'm curious as to what people want these days...what can truly make them happy with their buying decisions.

As a magic creator sometimes the gem of an idea, or plot, in general is the real secret...they don't fall off of trees.

I leave this in your hands and look forward to your honest feedback.

Keep on keepin' on...
Message: Posted by: MeetMagicMike (Aug 13, 2015 02:50PM)
Ricardo Delgado is completely right and let me add this:

The problem with a video demo is that it can be watched over and over again AND on a forum like this it will be discussed by dozens of magicians with various degrees of knowledge and the method WILL be figured out. This happens time and time again here at the Magic Cafť.

Newbies, no doubt. love it. Look up any effect and go through a few pages of guesses about magnets and sticky stuff and eventually you've got it. No need to buy anything unless it requires a gimmick.

Much of magic is clever routine-ing but of course once you watch a routine it's so easy to think "I could have thought of THAT!"

Think about years ago if you heard that so and so was doing a fantastic routine. You could go to his show or even have him show you in person but you would likely get one shot at it. Even if you were ballsy enough to film the effect you weren't likely to be able to sit around with dozens of magicians and try to figure it out. They would ask you why you don't just talk to the guy and buy the trick.

So now here we are in 2015 and a full video demo and a forum to discuss it are considered a constitutional right.
Message: Posted by: DynaMix (Aug 13, 2015 02:52PM)
There is a sweet spot for most purchasers. Where the method is so good that even if you surmise it, you still want to purchase because the VALUE is there.

Maybe the props look excellent, maybe its a unique routine you can't get elsewhere, maybe its a genuinely new method or a step forward.

In these scenarios I feel the demo video can be a full performance and there is nothing lost. The seller may lose potential sales from novices, and I understand that hurts - but I think doing whatever it takes to sell something is at odds with what performers want, and always will be.

It's hard to look at this only from the "methodology" persepctive - in the venn diagram of magic its the intersection point between method, cost, and VALUE - which I understand is subjective.
Message: Posted by: DynaMix (Aug 13, 2015 02:55PM)
Hence my earlier walkback when I learned this was $7. Now is it worth $7, I don't know...but I know it (potentially) stings less, if that makes any sense.
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Aug 13, 2015 03:48PM)
[quote]<>

The point is, if this effect was on video, after watching it two times I would get it. <>


Also, consider this:
If you saw a complete demo video of "The flight of the paper balls" (Slydini), would you buy the effect? You can TOTALY see what is happening and the method is completely obvious. Would you buy the effect?

<>[/quote]

1. Doesn't matter. Show me the effect being performed (one camera shooting from spectator/audience viewpoint is fine). I don't care how it's done, I care what it looks like.

2. Flight of the Paper Balls. Terrible terrible example to use in defense of the "show nothing" approach to sales videos. Any time it's performed THE WHOLE AUDIENCE SEES HOW IT'S DONE. How many other effects is that true for?
Message: Posted by: insight (Aug 13, 2015 04:30PM)
I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Aug 13, 2015 05:06PM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, insight wrote:
I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike [/quote]

This isn't a fair comparison. Regardless if they know the secret or not, they have to buy your products to perform it. This is an impromptu card magic effect, so the same can't be said.

- G.
Message: Posted by: insight (Aug 13, 2015 05:30PM)
A customer who perceives no value will pay $0, regardless of whether it is a card trick or not.

Regards,
Mike

[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, insight wrote:
I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike [/quote]

This isn't a fair comparison. Regardless if they know the secret or not, they have to buy your products to perform it. This is an impromptu card magic effect, so the same can't be said.

- G. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: robd (Aug 13, 2015 06:04PM)
For what it's worth I just bought Fly, it's only a few quid. I've so far only watched the performance, and whilst you can see where certain things will certainly have happened, you can't really tell what/how they've happened. And yes, you probably could reverse engineer it, but for £4.50 it's easier just to buy the fcking thing and learn it.

Would showing this performance hurt sales? I honestly don't think so. I don't regret buying it, and would have done if I'd have seen the effect anyway. And certainly not compared to some others I've seen - which I'm not going to mention again after having derailed things somewhat by initially mentioning Fly - where the method is so painfully obvious having watched the performance I wouldn't buy. I suppose the point is this: I want to see the effect not because I want to reverse engineer it, but because I want to see how fooling I think it is to a spectator.
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Aug 13, 2015 06:46PM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:

1. Doesn't matter. Show me the effect being performed (one camera shooting from spectator/audience viewpoint is fine). I don't care how it's done, I care what it looks like.

2. Flight of the Paper Balls. Terrible terrible example to use in defense of the "show nothing" approach to sales videos. Any time it's performed THE WHOLE AUDIENCE SEES HOW IT'S DONE. How many other effects is that true for? [/quote]

1. "Doesn't matter" is not an argument. At least not a good one. If you don't see a video of a performance you will not buy the effect? Then don't buy it.
But by those standards I think you would also never buy "Royal Road to Card Magic", "Card College", "Tarbell", "Expert Card Technique" or almost any other book on magic, full of effects which only a few get to be on video at some point.
Oh, but we are talking about video. So I'm also considering you don't have any of this in your shelf/wishlist "True Astonishments" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXnStqhGokM ), "Utopia" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59usGX9vo2g ), or pretty much any other DVD where they don't show you the complete effects on the trailer (almost all magic DVDs released).

2. It's the greatest example ever! XD It's besides the point that the whole audience sees how it's done. We are discussing the magicians point of view of a magic effect. And in this point of view, this effect has all the important things to this discussion: 1) It's a great effect; 2) You need instructions to do it properly; and 3) newbies may think it's simple enough to learn how to do it just by watching the performance. I don't get it why this could be misinterpreted as a terrible example.


I'm not defending the "show nothing" approach. I think that, when possible, there should always be a full demo, with the spectator point-of-view, without cuts. But that's not always possible without giving some people the chance to crack it down with enough re-plays. There are people like that who don't even want to perform the trick, just want to "teach" it freely on the internet!

"I don't care how it's done, I care what it looks like" - Perfect! If only all the other consumers (all the magicians, actually) thought like you, we could have the best demos ever (and even better magic!). But it's not like that. The secrecy of the method IS important. Yes, it's true we give too much importance to it, but the method IS important.

An example is "The Berglass Effects". A lot of people thought the "Holy Grail" was being finally published. People had HUGE expectations to the card magic of David Berglass. And his video performances could be found on internet for those interested. The book came out and loads of people were saying they didn't like the method, that it was not what what they were expecting, etc. The point here is, people wanted to know the method, they already knew what it looked like and even so, the method was disappointing for a lot of buyers. Why? Lack of a complete demo? Wasn't his magic good before? "ACAAN" and "Berglas' Effect" were two names for the same effect! And when the legend reveal his methods people come and say it's bad. Well, this is a case were the method clearly was more important (for a lot of people) than the way the effect looked like (the Berglas' presentations that they must all have watched).


The fact is, on our Era (the internet era), one of the first rules of magic is being broken all the time ("Don't show a trick for the same audience more than one time"). And I think the demos that don't show everything are the way creators and producers found to adapt to these times. However, is ridiculous to assume that, because a demo didn't show the complete trick without any cuts, it's a bad trick. Of course, there will always be the ones who try to mislead us to buy bad effects by hiding the weaknesses of the trick with clever editing. But hey, that's also why we have reviews!
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Aug 13, 2015 08:25PM)
[quote]

[/quote]

If someone tries to sell me an effect without showing me what it looks like in performance - or, unbelievably, without even telling me what it is! - I will indeed not buy it. I am not alone in that regard. If someone is trying to sell a magic effect, that is a factor for him to consider as he decides how to market his product.

If a would-be seller decides not to show what an effect looks like in performance that is a very strong indicator that the effect is a weak one, or at least that the seller has no confidence in it. I bought Chris Capehart's LR dvd BECAUSE the trailer showed what it looked like. It looked great - and, like everyone else here, I know "how" LR effects are done.

If a performance video cuts away at a crucial stage of the performance that is absolutely a sign that the effect is unlikely to play in real life.

No doubt there will always be some people around who would prefer to spend their time watching demo videos over and over than to pay the effect's creator for his skill and imagination. It's up to the creators and sellers to decide if those are the people who should dictate an effect's sales strategy.
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Aug 13, 2015 09:17PM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:

If a performance video cuts away at a crucial stage of the performance that is absolutely a sign that the effect is unlikely to play in real life.

No doubt there will always be some people around who would prefer to spend their time watching demo videos over and over than to pay the effect's creator for his skill and imagination. It's up to the creators and sellers to decide if those are the people who should dictate an effect's sales strategy. [/quote]

I get your point. But is not always like that. You can't say that as if it were 100% true. The DVDs I used as example above fit your description of "absolutely a sign that the effect is unlikely to play in real life". Besides that, there is even the fact that magic is thought (usually) to be performed/watched live, and not through a screen. A lot of aspects can loose strength with that: misdirection, magical atmosphere, disbelief suspension. That is why people don't usually buy a DVD of a play on the theater. They go to the theater.

Don't we always hear about how proper presentation can change an effect? If that is true, then one of the important factors for a trick to play in real life is the presentation you make of it. Yann Frisch once told this real anecdote about his act: He was rehearsing only the techniques, and his mother and sister told him it was terrible. They could see everything. Then he did everything again, exactly the same, only this time he used his character and the presentation. His family was marveled. They didn't notice it was the same thing.

And what I think is an important factor creators and sellers are considering: ultimately, what they sell is the secret (yes, I know there is more than that). If you are talking about a product like "The Magic Way" or "Strong Magic", then you have nothing to worry about, because those are books about theory. But when you are trying to sell a card trick, essentially, you are selling the secret. If the secret can be discovered by a magician, trough re-plays and knowledge, that doesn't mean it's a weak trick, right? But if the trick can be discovered by a magician, that also means that said magician may not want to pay for something he thinks he knows. And to top it off, some may value the secret low enough to think it should be free for everyone to see. If that happens, I think it may not be very good for sales. And it's worst even for magic itself: This can result in terrible "teaching" videos on youtube, lots of people knowing about a principle or move, and even lost of interest in the effect (now that everyone knows how it's done, is it really worth trying to perform it?).

Maybe that is the best selling strategy up to now. Who knows? Maybe, with the experience of selling magic products from the last 10 years, they noticed they could sell more like this. Idk.

Again, I'm not defending the creators/sellers side. Just raising points about it, so we could try to understand a bit better the other side. I agree with some things, but I completely disagree with the broad generalizations.
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Aug 13, 2015 09:22PM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:
If someone tries to sell me an effect without showing me what it looks like in performance - or, unbelievably, without even telling me what it is! - I will indeed not buy it. I am not alone in that regard. If someone is trying to sell a magic effect, that is a factor for him to consider as he decides how to market his product. [/quote]

Well, if they try to sell something without telling what it is I completely agree with you. It's like that for everything in life!

By the way, I have a utility product for the house which is great! It does marvelous things. It costs like 250$ but you will not regret it. I just can't tell you what it is before you buy it. Only after. XD
Message: Posted by: ixnay66 (Aug 13, 2015 11:47PM)
I've been in magic since before the Internet and demo videos. I honestly don't need to see a video but I DO need to read a basic explanation of the effect. "A card is selected and returned, half the cards are mixed face up with face down cards. All the cards magically right themselves except for the selection." I honestly don't think that's asking too much.
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Aug 13, 2015 11:55PM)
What products are those Mike? You sell stuff? Can we have a link please?
James

[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, insight wrote:
I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike [/quote]
Message: Posted by: insight (Aug 14, 2015 12:44AM)
PM me for a list of my available products. Thank you.

Regards,
Mike

[quote]On Aug 14, 2015, Xiqual wrote:
What products are those Mike? You sell stuff? Can we have a link please?
James

[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, insight wrote:
I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike [/quote] [/quote]
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Aug 14, 2015 01:09AM)
I donít have Fly and so I won't even comment on it.

With regard to purchasing magic products without knowing enough about them, I rarely do that - only for a very select few creators in whom I have developed a strong trust. All else, well, I need to at least know what I am buying or I won't consider it. With products where I donít really know the creator that well, it doesnít matter who writes that they have known the person for X years and their products are always top-rate. I've seen that too many times from folks who turned out to be friends of the creator and I was disappointed.

Those great quotes from well-known magicians? They donít do anything for me; I've been burned by those quotes before. And regarding "the old days of ad copy...", I'm probably at least as old as anyone here and I've probably seen all that you have. And the same concepts applied there. I need to know what I'm buying. If someone is too afraid that their secret will get out and they'll lose sales, well that can happen because of someone they sell to also. If you're THAT worried then maybe you should just perform your magic and leave the marketplace to others less timid.

Today there are just too many magic products selling for upwards of $100, and too many DVDs selling for $35 and up for me to just guess and take a chance. I have enough that I own right now to keep me busy for quite a few lifetimes!

BTW, video demos mean nothing to me. They can be helpful and informative - like Tony Miller's (as he commented on as Doomo, above, though there aren't too many creators as honest and open as Tony). But mostly they are there just to tease. If I donít know enough about a product, I wait for people I trust to own it and then I'll find out if it's something I want. Otherwise I just move on my merry way!

Jim
Message: Posted by: JamieD (Aug 14, 2015 07:24AM)
My two cents. Magic is a visual art. Everything relies on someone being able to see what they are buying. Those who are comparing this to olden day written descriptions, its kind of irrelevant now. Life is about moving forward and expanding with the new technologies that are available to us. Over the past 10 years or so, Magic trailers have been likened to that of small (and sometimes large) scale film trailers. Can you imagine if films did not have trailers but rather just a short synopsis? Its not very likely! The production of magic trailers now is incredible. Now, a film is sold to its viewers by giving snippets of the film away but protects the full story. The trailer does not show you 'all' the good parts because then when the viewing public see the film, they'll feel as though they have already seen it and feel cheated. Equally, if they trailer showed the full story, then the viewing public would also feel cheated. Even when you read the synopsis of a film, little details are left out to protect the film and the viewers right to whatever surprises are involved.

Also, feel free to ask a magic dealer or producer the difference a trailer (good or bad) makes in terms of sales. It really affects everything! Even a poor trailer which shows nothing of the effect stimulates something in the buying that makes them want to see more or understand it more. Sure it may be a gamble to produce a video that way but that is what buying and selling magic is about. It is always a gamble.

Now being a magic creator and having produced my own effects, I understand the importance of protecting an effect. Equally, being an avid collector of new and old magic effects, I understand the frustration when I have been stung by a trailer. If we look at everything subjectively, and take everything into consideration. If I saw Geraints trailer I would realise that there is not a lot shown. So I would move onto the ad copy. If the ad copy isn't quite answering things, id look at the endorsements. From that I would look at the producer. Now as much bad there is about E, there is also a great deal of good. There is passion put into their productions and these guys have a genuine love for the art. The same as you or me. I know E puts a lot of time, money and effort into their productions and therefor I would trust them with this. Then I would look at the price point.

I remember when I first started buying magic DVD's. I purchased a DVD by Alan Rorrison called Fingers of Fury. The DVD was about £15 ($30) and from it I only got one trick. The trick used normal everyday slights. Wasn't anything particularly ground breaking but I loved it. 10 years on, Im still using that same effect every single gig. I love it. So I spent $30 on one standard card trick. Geraints effect costs $7. Now if I did buy that effect and end up using it for the next 10 years then wow, how incredible that I learnt something for such an incredible price. If I don't enjoy the effect, ill find worth somewhere else. In his performance or maybe the little nuances that help him to achieve the effect.

Lastly id come here because again, for all the negativity in here, there is a great deal of incredibly generous lovely magicians who have no reason but to be honest. I've gone through this post and surprisingly, not seen anything negative written about the effect itself. Only positive. Therefore, taking everything into consideration and not just the trailer, I would purchase this effect.

To me, the trailer is one very small part of everything that is afforded to us as magicians and as people living in this age of unfathomable technologies and information. The producer of course has a duty to represent their effect fairly but it is also their right to protect the methods and keep the viewer "wanting more". This particular trailer has achieved that ten fold as we are proving here by discussing it. It showed us an essence of what the effect was, kept us guessing and in tern, whether it be a good thing or a bad thing, it has brought the trailer into the mainstream.

I equally respect everyones viewpoint and whilst mine may not be to the liking of others, I hope you understand where I am coming from!

Jamie Daws
Message: Posted by: RNK (Aug 14, 2015 08:21AM)
Very well stated Jamie! What I don't like to see is advertising like Dave Forrest did with his Triplex. There was no description of the effect in the ad. I was very surprised that Dave advertised that way. It seems he is a stand up fellow but advertising that way is very bad in my eyes. And if you look at the thread here about Triplex there is no positive vibes about it being good. Actually, I think only two people, Blindside and Lars, posted their thoughts which were very sub par. Now when you choose to advertise an effect in such a way as Triplex it better be a homerun.

RNK
Message: Posted by: writeall (Aug 14, 2015 10:37AM)
It's a card trick. What else do you need to know?

Oh, I suppose that it's from the people who pre-sold Change as "life-changing" - that's good to know too.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Aug 14, 2015 10:47AM)
[quote]On Aug 14, 2015, writeall wrote:
It's a card trick. What else do you need to know?

Oh, I suppose that it's from the people who pre-sold Change as "life-changing" - that's good to know too. [/quote]

Of which those people are STILL claiming CHANGE to be LIFE CHANGING. That's just strait arrogance!
Message: Posted by: tmoca (Aug 14, 2015 11:20AM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Aug 13, 2015, tmoca wrote:

...Show us a video of what it looks like and if you can't then tell us what the heck is happening or you don't get my money. :) [/quote]

I don't want your money. I just want to share my original magic effects.

In fact, I didn't even start this thread about my work. Someone else did.

For those that did buy it, they're loving it (ALL REVIEWS POSTED HERE : http://www.ellusionist.com/review/product/list/id/2015/category/3/#customer-reviews ) and I'm happy that they do.

My goal with publishing magic isn't to make money, if it was, I wouldn't be publishing downloads for $4 on the wire, or $7 on Ellusionist that people would be happier to pay 3x as much for.

My goal here is to share my magic, with value attributed to it, to the largest audience I can.... In the hope that people love it and go and perform it.

Keep your money, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Those who buy it will love it, and those who aren't curious enough to care, then that's okay too.

Thanks for your time though tmoca.

- G [/quote]

That was a general statement touched off by the topic...although I obviously hit a nerve. (truth hurts some times)

Regardless of the price or reseason behind selling a creation, if someone is paying for something, be it $7 or $700, they still should have an idea of what they are purchasing. Now this may be a stretch, but if you are giving something out and there is any price tag on it, I think it is safe to assume that 1) you WANT someone to buy it, so let them know what it is you want them to buy and 2) I am pretty sure if there is any dollar amount attached to it, there is some desire to gain or recoup money from said purchases. Otherwise, the price tag is useless.

Finally, no need to worry, you won't get my money. ;)
Message: Posted by: tmoca (Aug 14, 2015 11:26AM)
[quote]On Aug 14, 2015, JamieD wrote:
Can you imagine if films did not have trailers but rather just a short synopsis? [/quote]

I would much rather prefer this, especially as of late. I think film trailers do the exact opposite of magic trailers...they tend to show me MORE than I want to see. Give me the general plot and let me experience the movie. Don't shove all the good parts into a 2 minute trailer and expect me to pay for a full length film that showed all the best parts already for free :)
Message: Posted by: Ray Thompson (Aug 14, 2015 04:31PM)
After reading too many of these posts it is obvious to me the posters should not have contributed to putting brick and morter magic shops out of business.
Message: Posted by: lumberjohn (Aug 14, 2015 04:43PM)
I don't really understand the "controversy" here or the justification for anyone complaining about how this effect was marketed. The choice of marketing is made by those who profit from the sale of the product. If their marketing is ineffective, their sales will suffer. If this is due to a particular marketing approach, that approach will die out naturally as others refuse to adopt it.

If the trailer for "Fly" doesn't motivate you to buy it, for whatever reason, then don't. Move on. Life is too short for these type of arguments.
Message: Posted by: Slackerking (Aug 14, 2015 04:53PM)
Another thread, another example of being unable to please everyone no matter what with advertising. What's more interesting is the lack of uproar over the review processes by companies. I'm much more troubled by the censoring of reviews of products than by the advertising. If I buy a product because of the trailer that's on me, but if I buy a product because of positive reviews and the negative ones aren't posted, that's underhanded. Penguin often delays posting them until after their coolbox is finished and Ellusionist don't post them at all I've found first hand. If the reviews are real then the trailers aren't as important.
Message: Posted by: DynaMix (Aug 14, 2015 06:22PM)
That's a great point.

I am personally always more grateful for the balanced reviews (pros and cons) versus the 5 star ones.
Message: Posted by: daniltan (Aug 14, 2015 09:13PM)
Isn't it obvious that they're selling this effect not with the trailer? I mean they provide a trailer-- but, it's only for something like a must have in their products showcase. Their first selling point was Greg's comment. And now they're added some more comments. IMO, it's useless to discuss about the video trailer anymore as what they selling is a proof from bunch of comments. Actual proof or artificial proof? I let you guys decide on that. Honestly, Greg's comment is good enough for me to consider having this effect.
Message: Posted by: barts185 (Aug 27, 2015 08:48AM)
[quote]On Aug 14, 2015, Slackerking wrote:
Another thread, another example of being unable to please everyone no matter what with advertising. What's more interesting is the lack of uproar over the review processes by companies. I'm much more troubled by the censoring of reviews of products than by the advertising. If I buy a product because of the trailer that's on me, but if I buy a product because of positive reviews and the negative ones aren't posted, that's underhanded. Penguin often delays posting them until after their coolbox is finished and Ellusionist don't post them at all I've found first hand. If the reviews are real then the trailers aren't as important. [/quote]


So fake trailers are fine, but not publishing all reviews (especially the ones from people that bought the product and are disappointed because of the fake trailer) is not okay? Interesting take on the matter, especially since if we forced companies to make honest trailers, the lack of reviews would be less of an issue.

Still waiting (for numerous months now) for an answer to my question to you:

If no one ordered anything until someone bought it and did a review of it, who would buy anything and on what would they base their decision to purchase it?
Message: Posted by: JustJoshinMagic (Aug 30, 2015 02:07PM)
Looks like E posted a full performance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do3tFPTGbbM
Message: Posted by: mag1c1an (Dec 21, 2015 02:35PM)
Just got a message from Ellusionist about this trick and about how great it is, saw the trailer and got super irritated with "I cant show you a demo..." so I googled it and here I am :)

While I can understand the creator's fear of people figuring it out, I will never ever buy anything from Ellusionist if I can't "see" because I have been ... I don't know the word, "cheated" seems a little over the top but "marketed" seems under... by them on too many "fantastic" effects. Never again.

I'm a black club member , but I *only* buy supplies from them (like cards) because of the above reason.


The funny part is, wait a little while on any trick and some person on youtube is going to try to perform it... perform it after practicing for 3 minutes.

Wouldnt it be better for the creator who has spent so much time on it, and can perform it the best to do the trick rather than someone who just wants to put a video up as soon as possible and will most probably give away the trick because he didn't put in the required practice?
Message: Posted by: selectedmagic (Dec 21, 2015 02:53PM)
Don't sell it if you can't show it... problem solved. It's crazy to even attempt to convince someone to buy what they can't see.
Message: Posted by: mag1c1an (Dec 21, 2015 03:00PM)
Yep.

As for that argument that magicians know the mechanics of handling cards more than lay people, perhaps there should be a little star there like this (*) and when you scroll down you see a little warning that goes something like this:



(*) Use only in front of lay people, ask them if they have had any interest in magic before or seen any youtube videos, if there is a person who answers yes, do not do this trick because 'if you show them a proper demo they might figure it out'.


The above sounds insane, because it is as crazy as some of the ads you see on TV:
Birds flying
beautiful mountains in the distance
children playing in the backyard
Giraffes eating from tall trees

and it ends with

Buy Tampons!