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Topic: Dai Vernon's wand spin
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Oct 5, 2015 06:06AM)
Hi,
I am currently studying Daryl's Master Course - Cups and balls (vol. 2). His presentation of the Dai Vernon routine does not include the wand spin at the vanish of the third ball in stage 2 referenced in "The Dai Vernon Book of Magic by Lewis Ganson".

So, I am curious;
- Why did Daryl omit this?
- Is this not a part of the "original routine"?
- Is there a video source where I can study it?

I wish you all a splendid week!
Message: Posted by: Tom Fenton (Oct 5, 2015 12:36PM)
You may want to get in touch with Bri Watson.
He's a member here, his user name is cupsandballsmagic.
Bri has an excellent book all about the wand spin.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Oct 5, 2015 01:53PM)
I second the Brian Watson booklet, "The Vernon-Mora Wand Spin Workshop." He breaks down the wand spin into two parts: the wand spin itself and the steal, and then puts the two together. I gave up on the wand spin many years ago, but Brian's book has helped me to finally master the move. One thing I was unaware of is the importance of the size of the wand. I was using a wand that is too long and bulky for the move to be done properly. The booklet has many clear photographs illustrating the moves, and if you want to learn the wand spin, it is the way to go. It is very inexpensive as well.

Of the video explanations, I found the explanation given by Mike Rogers on the Stevens video to be the best.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Oct 5, 2015 08:38PM)
All great suggestions for learning the Vernon/Mora wand spin. I would also recommend the Michael Ammar C & B DVDs. The wand spin is on volume 2 and I think he does the wand spin beautifully. The wand should be well balanced and not too large or heavy.
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Oct 6, 2015 03:07AM)
Thank you very much everyone!!
One last question; how "hard" is the spin considered to be?
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Oct 6, 2015 07:16PM)
The spin itself is just like the baton spin that the baton girls do in high school and college marching bands. With regular, correct practice based on the suggestions that were submitted, you should be fine.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Oct 6, 2015 07:31PM)
[quote] On Oct 6, 2015, Leo H wrote:
The spin itself is just like the baton spin that the baton girls do in high school and college marching bands. [/quote]

Yeah, but in that case there is no steal, which complicates matters. I would say, it's not an easy move to get down.

As a drummer, I used to do a drum stick spin, which is not the same as the spin used in the Vernon/Mora wand spin.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Oct 6, 2015 08:06PM)
[quote]On Oct 6, 2015, Ray Haining wrote:
[quote] On Oct 6, 2015, Leo H wrote:
The spin itself is just like the baton spin that the baton girls do in high school and college marching bands. [/quote]

Yeah, but in that case there is no steal, which complicates matters. I would say, it's not an easy move to get down.[/quote]

The baton spin is learned first, then the steal is learned after that. Then both are practiced in tandem.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Oct 6, 2015 10:20PM)
[quote] On Oct 6, 2015, Leo H wrote:
[quote] On Oct 6, 2015, Ray Haining wrote:
[quote] On Oct 6, 2015, Leo H wrote:
The spin itself is just like the baton spin that the baton girls do in high school and college marching bands. [/quote]

Yeah, but in that case there is no steal, which complicates matters. I would say, it's not an easy move to get down.[/quote]

The baton spin is learned first, then the steal is learned after that. Then both are practiced in tandem. [/quote]

I get it now: you were referring to just the spin part. I'm taking your word, however, that the wand spin is the same as the baton spin since I'm unfamiliar with the latter.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Oct 6, 2015 10:46PM)
Yup-the wand spin is identical to the baton spin that you see in marching bands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDWwJTRiv0
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Oct 6, 2015 11:09PM)
Go to:

www.cupsandballsmagic.com

for the above-mentioned booklet, "The Vernon/Moro Wand Spin Workshop."
Message: Posted by: pepka (Oct 7, 2015 01:47AM)
I made a small modifacation that greatly aided in my learning of it. I sent you a video.
Message: Posted by: Montana76 (Oct 7, 2015 06:01AM)
Thank you all!!
Message: Posted by: Uli Weigel (Oct 7, 2015 08:51AM)
If you can get your hands on it, check out David Regal's Cups & Balls routine from his first L&L Video series. He teaches a slightly different handling for the steal, which is very clean (no finger flutter) and might be a bit easier to master.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Oct 23, 2015 04:28PM)
I learned it from the Dai Vernon Book on the Cups and Balls. There should be NO finger flutter, if you follow the directions there.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Oct 27, 2015 02:18PM)
Ido it backwards :stircoffee:
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Oct 28, 2015 07:45PM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2015, KirkG wrote:
I learned it from the Dai Vernon Book on the Cups and Balls. There should be NO finger flutter, if you follow the directions there. [/quote]

The finger flutter can be camouflaged in the act of kneading your left fist during the spin move. This seems to have originated with Mike Skinner
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Oct 28, 2015 09:52PM)
FYI The instruction in Louis Ganson's (Supreme) book on Vernon is simply wrong, disregard it.
Message: Posted by: Moonstone76 (Nov 14, 2015 03:50AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2015, Leo H wrote:
[quote]On Oct 23, 2015, KirkG wrote:
I learned it from the Dai Vernon Book on the Cups and Balls. There should be NO finger flutter, if you follow the directions there. [/quote]

The finger flutter can be camouflaged in the act of kneading your left fist during the spin move. This seems to have originated with Mike Skinner [/quote]

Yeah it's a Skinner idea and I use it all the time. It's reported un the Cups book of Mike Ammar
Message: Posted by: tvmikek (Nov 14, 2015 12:32PM)
I second Uli's suggestion. David Regal's instruction on that DVD was great! It's a hard move, but the way he explains it makes it seem possible to master.
Message: Posted by: bignickolson (Nov 17, 2015 11:37AM)
Back to the original topic, I was also a little disappointed with the Daryl Cups and Balls DVD. The Sponge balls one was great and had a ton of stuff. This one felt like they just gave up after a shooting a couple routines and decided to release it anyways.
Message: Posted by: AGMagic (Nov 18, 2015 02:09AM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2015, Pete Biro wrote:
Ido it backwards :stircoffee: [/quote]

The ball falls up?
Message: Posted by: bignickolson (Nov 18, 2015 10:24AM)
[quote]On Nov 18, 2015, AGMagic wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 2015, Pete Biro wrote:
Ido it backwards :stircoffee: [/quote]

The ball falls up? [/quote]

Anti-gravity wand spin.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 29, 2015 09:34AM)
[quote]On Nov 18, 2015, AGMagic wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 2015, Pete Biro wrote:
Ido it backwards :stircoffee: [/quote]

The ball falls up? [/quote]
No, but he faces the wall.
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Nov 29, 2015 10:18AM)
The wand spin is not too tough to learn and you can learn it with either hand.
It was omitte because Daryl did nt do it in the routine. Contact him to ask him why.

I learned it from the Ammar book as it has an excellent description but I would also recomend Bri's excellent book as well.

Finger flutter? This occurs from wrong practice and not understanding what Vernon said ...do not try to catch the ball and also move the ball to the correct position for the drop. It is all about timing really.
I cannot say the exact method but you can work it out from that. I think it is the Video #15 with vernon where he explains my above statement. Forgot the vidionics name for that set of tapes. Great stuff on all of them.
Yes I understand what Pete means you can spin the wand in either direction....with either hand.
Normally you spin it Clockwise but counterclockwise can be done as well.

You guys crack me up.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Nov 29, 2015 12:57PM)
[quote]On Nov 29, 2015, Mobius303 wrote:Finger flutter? This occurs from wrong practice and not understanding what Vernon said ...do not try to catch the ball and also move the ball to the correct position for the drop. It is all about timing really.[/quote]

The finger flutter in question refers to the hand dropping the ball. The Vernon advice you quoted is meant for the hand catching the ball. Which is golden advice for the receiving hand. The hand dropping the ball has to relax enough to let the ball slip out the bottom. Finger flutter can be tough avoid when letting the ball drop out. The kneading action that Skinner used to camouflage any small flutter does the job well.
Message: Posted by: HarryB (Nov 29, 2015 01:00PM)
Ammar's video explains the wand spin pretty well. I had to rewind and watch it in slow motion 20 or so times to understand the spin and the move. I sure wish I hadn't missed baton twirling day at cheerleader camp. :rotf: Also, even though Ammar doesn't appear to do the 'finger flutter', he does offer an explanation and demonstration of it at the end merely stating that it was a suggestion that Skinner made to him. He describes it as "working the ball" before and after the move.
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Nov 29, 2015 04:26PM)
Vernon also explains ...as does Ammar that the ball does not start in the hand but at the fingertips of the closed hand thus no finger flutter in the dropping hand. Light touch is required either way.
The Skinner kneeding action also is another method that works as well.

I thought we were not supposed to post methods here only in the Secret forums.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Dec 3, 2015 02:24AM)
The wand spin Vernon used and did on television series episode , is the simple, 1st method learned by little girls when learning to spin baton's. It uses more wrist action that turns inward. Very simple, and nothing like David Williamson's method that take a lot of practice. It is more of a wrist spin, then a finger spin. You will most likely not want to do once you discover how simple it is, as it takes more talent to make it look like a spin then actually spinning the wand really.

Being you have too fingers free, it is not hard to control and conceal a ball in the hand in motion.
Message: Posted by: HarryB (Dec 3, 2015 05:19PM)
I have never seen the Williamson method. The version on the Ammar C&B videos are hard enough. Ammar's wand is much thicker than the one that he sells so he can get it spinning and the momentum brings the wand through the entire spin. It's not difficult but it's harder with the thinner one that I have. Ammar even demonstrates the vanish of a tomato at the end of the DVD chapter. Not sure I'll ever get there :lol: .
Message: Posted by: Deceptor (Dec 4, 2015 01:58PM)
I was taught the "spin" described by Bill using wrist action. Not really a spin per se, more of the illusion of a spin.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Dec 4, 2015 10:52PM)
Williamson's spin is the Drummer's Spin. The fist is stationary with the thumb facing upward. The wand is propelled around the outside of the thenar muscle and thumb and rotates 360 degrees. It's a tricky move and you can see it here at 4:12:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN4KZ9K5OIw
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Dec 4, 2015 11:10PM)
The Vernon Wand spin by Michael Ammar he also does the Williamson one at the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV-VsiX-Rq4
Message: Posted by: HarryB (Dec 5, 2015 06:33AM)
Thanks Leo and Mobius. Ammar does explain both spins in his C&B volume 2 video. I will agree with that the Williamson spin is more difficult. To be honest, I have put more work into the Vernon spin because it has a purpose other than showing a familiarity with your props and just looking plain good. Ok, I'll be honest. I tried the Williamson spin a couple of times and almost lost a couple of teeth. I didn't try it again for the sake of personal safety but will continue to try in the future.
Message: Posted by: jim ferguson (Dec 5, 2015 01:24PM)
The drummers spin isn't without purpose or simply to display a familiarity with your props - it's real value is that it can be done while concealing a ball in finger palm.

My advice is to keep practicing. It will seem difficult at first but there is a knack to it that you will achieve with time. Once you have it down you'll find it a valuable addition to your routine.

Good luck.


Jim
Message: Posted by: HarryB (Dec 5, 2015 04:35PM)
Jim,
What you said makes a lot of sense. I get it now. The Williamson spin is definitely more advanced but I now see the purpose. Thanks for clarifying. I hope the OP forgives me for getting off track a little.


harry
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Dec 5, 2015 07:09PM)
The Drummer's Spin will have your wand flying all over the place at the beginning. I would practice with a cheap wand and let it hit the walls and furniture. There is definitely a knack to this move, and timing is vital. When you relinquish control of the wand, it has to have enough momentum to go around your thumb.

Jim is correct in that this particular spin creates the illusion of emptiness in the hand.
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Dec 6, 2015 08:43AM)
Best advice I got from Dave was to not try to catch the wand in the Williamson/ drummers spin. When you move your hand you throw the wand making it difficult to get it to do what you want.
Message: Posted by: magojose| (Jan 3, 2016 01:21PM)
I think it's also taught on the Revelations series where Vernon himself dissects his C&B routine. Also giving an important advice to take in care if you want to get the proper amount of coverage for the vanish of the ball
Unfortunatly I don't remenber on wich disc of the set this is in

Hope to be help on your quest
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Jan 3, 2016 01:49PM)
[quote]On Jan 3, 2016, magojose |wrote:
I think it's also taught on the Revelations series where Vernon himself dissects his C&B routine. Also giving an important advice to take in care if you want to get the proper amount of coverage for the vanish of the ball
Unfortunatly I don't remenber on wich disc of the set this is in

Hope to be help on your quest [/quote]

It's on the third DVD: Volume 5/6.
Message: Posted by: jcrabtree2007 (Feb 22, 2016 02:28AM)
Ammar Cups and Balls Vol 2. Its not a hard move to master.
Message: Posted by: Oscar999 (Mar 17, 2016 03:19PM)
If you're wanting to combine the vanish with the wand spin the best advice I ever received was at a magic meeting (in the close-up class) - to separate the spin from the steal/vanish.

By acknowledging the two "parts" you don't rush yourself - essentially the spin is done and then the steal occurs in a sweeping motion over and under the fist which catches the "ball" from a heel clip. It's pretty easy when you break it into two distinct actions.

Oscar
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 18, 2016 03:15PM)
Unless one or more of us has spoken with Daryl about this, then I would recommend that you either call, write or e-mail Darryl to find the answer, or go to the mentalism forum to see if someone over there can read his mind. ;)

[quote]On Oct 5, 2015, Montana76 wrote:
Hi,
I am currently studying Daryl's Master Course - Cups and balls (vol. 2). His presentation of the Dai Vernon routine does not include the wand spin at the vanish of the third ball in stage 2 referenced in "The Dai Vernon Book of Magic by Lewis Ganson".

So, I am curious;
- Why did Daryl omit this?
- Is this not a part of the "original routine"?
- Is there a video source where I can study it?

I wish you all a splendid week! [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (Mar 25, 2016 02:12AM)
I have talked and e-mailed him.
He said he never learned the Vernon wand spin so he did not put it on the video.

He did not give an answer as to why he never learned one.
Message: Posted by: RC (Mar 25, 2016 01:19PM)
Here's a practice session of my wand spin (and some additional moves): https://vimeo.com/131467735

I got my start & inspiration to learn from Michael Ammar. I've considered possibly trying to produce a video detailing how to do the moves and some subtleties I've added. This video was made just to show Mr. Ammar my progress and to say thank you. He suggested I contribute the information to a magazine or even document the work at Bill Palmer's site (Hi Bill, I'm Ryan. :) ) . Would anyone be interested in something like this? I don't want to take away from other products already out by repeating info that is already available. I believe Ammar's dvd is a "wanderful" source. It's where I got my start. I also wouldn't necessarily want this info to be public domain. These are just a few thoughts. What do you guys think?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 26, 2016 02:27PM)
That makes some sense. I'm not sure why Vernon used it at all. Most of his work was basically "flourish-free." But I certainly wouldn't argue with either one of them as to why they did or did not use the wand spin.



[quote]On Mar 25, 2016, Mobius303 wrote:
I have talked and e-mailed him.
He said he never learned the Vernon wand spin so he did not put it on the video.

He did not give an answer as to why he never learned one. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Mar 26, 2016 02:33PM)
Here is some food for thought, regarding the various wand spins and flourishes.

1) If your wand is made of a homogeneous material, then it will balance in the center. Some people advertise that their wands are "correctly balanced for the Vernon wand spin." Use a dowel.

2) Some people find that using a slightly heavier wand causes the inertia of the wand to keep it spinning properly.

3) Don't use a wand that is too long for the length of your arm. A 12" wand is plenty long for most of us. If you have a heavy wand that is too long, you can hurt yourself with it by hitting yourself in the face.

4) Don't rush the wand spin (or the Williamson vanish, for that matter). If you try to move too quickly, you blow the sleight.

5) Most of the videos we see of Vernon doing the wand spin were made when he was in his late 70's or early 80's. He had done the wand spin tens of thousands of times by then. Don't expect your wand spin to be perfect after just two or three attempts!
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Mar 26, 2016 08:48PM)
Anyone learning the wand spin would do well to get Ammar's Mercury Wand. It has that nice rubber grip and is the right weight for the spin. Learning the wand spin is a pleasure with this prop. It was for me.

I understand that Vernon used the wand spin to throw the audience off the trail. After the first two vanishes, they would understandably begin to suspect that the magician was not honestly transferring the ball into the left hand. After the third transfer, the ball is shown to actually be in the left hand.
Message: Posted by: medievalmagician (May 2, 2016 09:16AM)
It took me almost a week of practicing the Vernon Wand Spin before it felt right. I brought my wand with me everywhere, practicing at every opportunity. The vanish, on the other hand is still a work in progress
Message: Posted by: friend2cptsolo (May 2, 2016 12:46PM)
I think the hardest part to get down is that timing of the drop and catch.
video will help.
Message: Posted by: miky (Jul 2, 2016 01:21AM)
I was disappointed with the Ammar video in that he showed only the wand spin in the Superpractice session at the end of the segment and omitted the vanish.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Jul 2, 2016 02:20PM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2016, miky wrote:
I was disappointed with the Ammar video in that he showed only the wand spin in the Superpractice session at the end of the segment and omitted the vanish. [/quote]

Are you referring to Ammar's Complete Cups and Balls videos? Everything you need to learn the wand spin vanish is in there on Volume II.
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Jul 8, 2016 12:49AM)
Just an historical point. Michael Ammar has done a great job in promoting and teaching properly the wand spin. I share his admiration for Dai Vernon's essential contribution to our art but his crediting to The Professor for this move is just unfair to the actual creator. Lewis McCord of Pittsburgh, PA aka Silent Mora spent two years between 1903 and 1905 perfecting his original idea before releasing its final version. Dai Vernon was born in 1894 and was therefore 6 to 11 years old and living in Ottawa (Canada) when Silent Mora released its creation.
Similar thing can be pointed out on Dai Vernon's cups and balls routine. The routine -with all of its original phases and moves (including the Tip Over Load and the spectator's choice for which side to magically transfer the ball, only missing the wand spin)- was released for the first time in a small book by Jean-Auguste Faugeras (1868-1955), a Paris magic dealer whose magician's name was Jean Caroly, "Le Prestidigitateur: Tours faciles d’escamotage". Paris A. L. Guyot undated [1900-1902] Vernon was 6 years old
The interesting point here, apart from the historical aspect, is that The Professor's recognition for his major contribution to magic is misinterpreted by magicians. It's not in "new moves" like most young magicians try and discover. It's partly described in the introduction to his Book of Magic (using a ball and the French Drop for example purpose) and Bill Palmer rightfully reminds it here : it's in the absence of flourishes and in making moves look "naturalistic". Naturalistic is different from natural in as much as it deals not with the moves natural to the performer but PERCEIVED AS NATURAL by any spectator.
The professor also brought an essential concept for this naturalistic approach which he used constantly and that he was callin "the magic management" : magic management makes any move come in naturally at a stage in a routine and is essential to the naturalistic aspect OF A ROUTINE (in this case killing the suspicion that the ball may not actually be in the left hand before the spin and focusing on the "power of the wand" which is not just a painted wooden stick).
Learning the Silent Mora's move (and giving proper credit for the move or the routine) is not sufficient to celebrate Dai Vernon's genius as that genius was not in putting his name on a move but in picking up moves and blending them, from causes to consequences, into a sequence of gestures that would combine the most naturalistically in a routine...
Thus let's learn and celebrate Dai Vernon by not overlooking his actual essential contribution and replacing it by some things he didn't claim to hide our ignorance of his actual major contribution : magic is not about "moves" or "sleights" (which should nevertheless be perfectly performed)
Message: Posted by: RC (Jul 8, 2016 12:58AM)
Really great post, Lawrence. Very well said.
Message: Posted by: kuma62 (Jun 14, 2019 09:03PM)
Is it anywhere in the Vernon revelations dvds?
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Jun 15, 2019 05:49AM)
I'm pretty sure they go over it and teach it.