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Topic: Can you be a magician and mentalist??
Message: Posted by: SleepyMagic (May 30, 2016 09:20PM)
I'm likely to anger a lot of people by writing this....its 3am in the morning so please if my English is a bit off its because I'm tired...

Anyway.. I've heard many many many times on the Café people saying how you can't be a magician and mentalist at the same time due to the immense contrast in the performances....however I disagree to am extent...IMO you can definitely be a magician and mentalist at the same time...HOWEVER,you have to make sure your audience knows the difference between both and you need to separate them so as not to oerfrom mentalism whilst the audience thinking its magic....I know 99% of people will disagree with me

And I would love to hear your opinions...

Sleepy
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (May 30, 2016 09:22PM)
If you can just call it 'Mental Magic', nobody will disagree with you.
Message: Posted by: SleepyMagic (May 30, 2016 09:28PM)
[quote]On May 30, 2016, Last Laugh wrote:
If you can just call it 'Mental Magic', nobody will disagree with you. [/quote]

Hahah...but mental magic and mentalism are very different IMO

Sleepy
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (May 30, 2016 09:33PM)
What's the difference?

That might answer your question.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 30, 2016 10:01PM)
Sleepymentalism-

Your question doesn't anger me in the least, but it is more than a bit frustrating.

By your own admission just a few months ago, you are pretty much a beginner when it comes to learning mentalism. The question you ask here has been discussed to death, and probably beyond, on this forum since its creation. You, yourself, asked it just a few months ago.

There are very fundamental and sound reasons why mentalists never mix the two unless they are already well-known as mentalists. And even they will rarely use more than a single brief magic trick. And when a magician tries to do mentalism in his magic act it will simply be perceived as another magic trick. (The fact that many magicians in recent years have started to do this is one of the basic causes of the "trivialization" that you've probably seen discussed at length in other thread.)

I'm certainly not going to write extensively on the topic here, because I've already written thousands of words about it in the Café over the years. I'm sure that this isn't the first time you've heard this, but here it is again- use the search function.
Message: Posted by: Michael Zarek (May 30, 2016 11:03PM)
You can do what you want...
Doesn't mean it's a good idea though.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 30, 2016 11:17PM)
I agree, this has been discussed to death and ends up coming though in may threads. It has been well documented and explained to death as well.

Forgive me if I am incorrect and mixing you up with so many other newer guys recently, but aren't you the guy that is only fourteen years old? Either way, it doesn't matter but to think you understand mentalism in this short amount of time is wrong. Therefore your perceptions may be without proper perception and premise. Also it is without performance experience, so at this point it's nothing more than theory and opinions you're thinking.

This almost sound like baiting if you know 99% will disagree with you and know it's been discussed to death. Magic and mentlaism are complete opposite in premise and foundation. That too is well documented. To think you understand it in such a short amount of time is insulting to those that are taking the time to help and educate you and that have actual years of performing experience. My guess is you also are not familiar with stage and are likely from the UK, correct?

Use the search, that will keep you busy for a few months to years if you can take it.
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (May 31, 2016 02:14AM)
Why is it likely that he's from the UK? Not looking for disagreement but just interested in why you would surmise that.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (May 31, 2016 02:32AM)
The time he posted is a clue... But I think he's said so previously.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (May 31, 2016 02:40AM)
Lets be very clear here, magicians mixing in a little bit of mentalism is something that happens everywhere, the major sites that promote the mixing are American too...

If a kid is influenced or set an example by what he sees on tv and via social media, then yeah, they're going to think its ok or ask questions...

Search function though will give a huge amount of threads...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (May 31, 2016 03:11AM)
@sleepy - if you are taking something Derren brown said on devils picture book, then you are kinda warping his point...and you also have to see that it was a different time and the context was different too...

And its a basic difference, people equate magic with sleights and know uts not real, that there's a trick to it...

With mentalism, there is an element of plausibility and possibility that it might be real..putting both side by side means that the people involved think "ok, so this bit is just tricks, and now I'm being told THIS bit isn't a trick? Which is which? Its all a trick wh...cos if you can do it for real, why bother with tricks?!"
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (May 31, 2016 03:20AM)
The odd exception to this seems to be the celebrity performer. Kreskin always seemed to be able to shift back and forth as does David Blaine and several others with no quetion. I guess they are considered exceptional characters and are allowed to bridge that odd gap. I'm a consultant for one of the Middle East's most famous magicians who just filmed a full season of TV shows that aired in many countries over there. He is very well known every where he goes. He was able to very convincingly shift into non-magic tests and it was accepted very believably as it wasn't even considered by the other celebrities he was performing for as a "trick". It was perceived as his special power and ability. He mastered the hands and mastered the mind. My belief is that this just has to do with exceptional conviction and believability. He happens to be very charismatic and could translate everything I gave him into a very powerful and believable performance that transcended what people thought of as simple "magic". This happened to the degree that many thought his powers were demonic although that was largely cultural in nature. He was simply an exceptional performer who could pull it off. Isn't that ultimately the problem? Don't mentalists tend to be better actors and more believable performers than magicians? Ultimately all is acting and I find that is the mitigating factor in creating believability in mentalism.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (May 31, 2016 03:28AM)
I actually think that magicians are missing a trick, pardon the pun...

Because a) whoever is bold enough to try and reclaim the word magician in the truest sense of the word, and its tarot undertones too, will have some interesting opportunities...

B) you can do so many interesting things, that its a shame its focusing on sponge balls and ropes...they can freeze water, create fire, transmute, use stories...they don't need ANY mentalism...they just need to rethink what they are doing and elevate it in both a modern and interesting way...

That's why Blaine was such a success...

Magic doesn't need to add mentalism into the mix, it just needs to take itself seriously...
Message: Posted by: Axel (May 31, 2016 05:15AM)
I'd like to add my two cents to the "discussed to death"-theme.
While this is right and there are probably hundreds of threads about this topic, the reason that people ask
this questions over and over again might not just be laziness.
Although this most certainly plays some part in it.
But I also think that it speaks of a personal dilemma that people have ESPECIALLY when they're younger and relatively
new into mentalism.
And the urge to discuss your thoughts and doubts about certain themes that come with the love of mentalism
can't be satisfied by just reading.
Just to be clear: I don't say that people shouldn't read as much as they can and think twice before they ask a question that
might have been answered hundreds of times before.
But as a teacher I know that certain things can not be understood by just reading.
You have to express your doubts, questions and opinions in relation to other people.
Like it or not. This forum is a place where beginners come when they start to look into magic and mentalism.
They will ask the same questions again and again for the next 200 years. Just as young students ask me the same questions over and over again.
And I don't tell them to read a book where it is all written down. I discuss it with them as good as I can as if it was something new to me.
That is part of the teacher job.
And it is also a small part of what this forum is about.
That doesn't mean that you have to take on the roll of a teacher here if you're experienced as a mentalist.
Just ignore these questions and take part in discussions you enjoy.
But the standard reaction to this questions: "Use the search function" might be missing a point.
Just my thoughts...
All the best,
Axel
Message: Posted by: IAIN (May 31, 2016 05:42AM)
I kind of agree, but also don't...😃

The quicker someone learns to self educate, research, read, search and then spend time contemplating it all is absolutely necessary...THEN it can evolve into better, healthier questions...

But the basics, the differences, it all here, just search for it and make notes...
Message: Posted by: SleepyMagic (May 31, 2016 05:48AM)
Thanks for all the responses.... I have used the search function for this question before but it didn't fill me the way I wanted it to..anyway.. I am fairly new to mentalism as most for you know...however I've been doing magic for 7 years... And I'm really not sure if I should make a transition, stay doing magic or do mentalism and Magic...I mean it can be done...David Copperfield did both...yh....

Sleepy
Message: Posted by: funsway (May 31, 2016 06:10AM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, IAIN wrote:

Magic doesn't need to add mentalism into the mix, it just needs to take itself seriously... [/quote]

easy to agree with!

Yet, my first thought is, "How to find an audience that takes magic seriously, or even takes itself seriously?

Folks buying a ticket to see a mentalist do seem to take the venture seriously -- prepared to participate in demonstrations of "other than normal" mental abilities.

What do folks expect when they go to see a magician perform, or are assaulted on the street by a performer?
Many threads on the Café suggest they just wish to be entertained and have little concept of what a good magic effect would look like.

Methinks there is too much of allowing the tail to wag the dog.

Certainly, if can't captivate an audience with magic effects, tossing in mentalism isn't going to help.
The "mystic arts" offer a unique way of communicating with an audience, changing perspectives and even instilling hope and excitement. (opinion)

Be clear on what you are attempting to communicate, and follow.

I see that Iain has another post up. Read that also.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (May 31, 2016 06:11AM)
But you are not Copperfield and you don't have his prestige or set up...and he is only known as a magician/illusionist...have a think as to why he isn't thought of as a mentalist...

Explore who you are, why not just throw yourself head long into just one or the other and explore it as fully as possible?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (May 31, 2016 07:45AM)
Copperfield is a fantastic Mentalist. He is also know as a world class magician.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (May 31, 2016 07:48AM)
He is not known as a mentalist. Please stop your trolling on every thread, its boring. And yes, we've seen the book test clip.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 31, 2016 09:05AM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Sleepymentalism wrote:
Thanks for all the responses.... I have used the search function for this question before but it didn't fill me the way I wanted it to..anyway.. I am fairly new to mentalism as most for you know...however I've been doing magic for 7 years... And I'm really not sure if I should make a transition, stay doing magic or do mentalism and Magic...I mean it can be done...David Copperfield did both...yh....

Sleepy [/quote]

If you think what David Copperfield does is mentalism, you don't really have any idea what mentalism is. David does MENTAL MAGIC.
Message: Posted by: Ed_Millis (May 31, 2016 09:53AM)
[quote]David Copperfield did both[/quote]
[quote]But you are not Copperfield[/quote]
Exactly what I was going to say!!
When you've got the years of experience and character-formation that Copperfield has, then you can do what he does.

I'm coming from a magician's background, and I've got several "mental magic tricks". Which is why I am making very sure I know where the line is and how to stay on one side or the other before I dare try to call anything "mentalism".

Before you simply try to imitate what your heroes *do*, why not pay attention to the process that made them who they *are*, and thus able to do what they can do?

Ed
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 31, 2016 10:12AM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Ed_Millis wrote:
Before you simply try to imitate what your heroes *do*, why not pay attention to the process that made them who they *are*, and thus able to do what they can do?

Ed [/quote]

Brilliant. Truer words have never been spoken.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 31, 2016 10:23AM)
Sleepy- You say you've been doing magic for seven years, without mentioning that you are only about fifteen years old. You are at a stage where you really should be listening to those with literally decades of professional experience rather than trying to tell them what's what about mixing magic and mentalism.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 31, 2016 10:37AM)
Can't listen when doing so much talking.


This generation of newbies challenging long-time experienced working pros is both saddening and sickening and the industry at it's worst. I regularly hear from teachers that say the same is happening in the classroom as well.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (May 31, 2016 11:40AM)
"They refuse your path, and they will take their own route to get there, but they will arrive at someplace uniquely their own." An artist's path.
Message: Posted by: SolidSnake (May 31, 2016 11:48AM)
I'm sure I read a mentalist manuscript once that had card through window as an effect.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (May 31, 2016 12:05PM)
David Copperfield performs some of the best mentalism in the world Twice a Night and Three times on matinee days .. SEVEN DAYS A WEEK usually for sold out crowds of 1000 averaging $150 per ticket. He performs his updated version of The Wizard is Back which is a very good MENTALISM effect that was demonstrated and developed here on the Café itself on this very section of the forum about a decade ago. Just because Copperfield is the greatest magician of our era doesn't mean he's not a Fantastic Mentalist! David Copperfield has performed more mentalism for more people than any performer alive. (Unless one of you performs for more than 60,000 fans a month) Copperfield has been performing at the MGM for 15 years straight now .... ;) I first saw him on tour 25 years ago or so. I caught his show 4 times last year. He's one of the best mentalists ever! (Also a fantastic magician) ;)

So to answer your initial question .... If you have the chops of Copperfield ... YES!!!!! ;)
Message: Posted by: SolidSnake (May 31, 2016 12:14PM)
I'm not sure that performing a mentalism effect makes you a mentalist
Message: Posted by: danielwk (May 31, 2016 12:17PM)
I used to do be a magician and started learning mentalism when I was 16. I started performing only mentalism when I turned 20-21 but I still do few magic tricks sometimes at gigs, mostly just one effect if it happens. However, I do not think it is a good idea to perform magic and mentalism together all the time since everything would be perceived as a trick. If it is just one magic effect you are performing I think you could get away with it if you educate the audience that what you will show them next is a trick, while the rest of the performance had no trickery involved.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 31, 2016 12:24PM)
I'm betting even if you asked Copperfield he would be the first to tell you he is not a mentalist and doesn't want to be seen as one.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 31, 2016 12:26PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, SolidSnake wrote:
I'm not sure that performing a mentalism effect makes you a mentalist [/quote]

UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE MILLENNIUM!!!
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (May 31, 2016 01:08PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On May 31, 2016, SolidSnake wrote:
I'm not sure that performing a mentalism effect makes you a mentalist [/quote]

UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE MILLENNIUM!!! [/quote]

This is SUCH a valuable concept! You can call yourself a mentalist but that doesn't mean you are perceived as one by the viewer. It's the same for any artform. The term "Mentalist" is something that is awarded to you by the audience when you've earned it. It's more about perception then what you want to claim.

The "Star" performer is a different category as they are seen as an "exceptional artist" in many ways and have skills that transcend definitions and labels. David Copperfield (although an amazing illusionist) never really fit into this category for me as much as David Blaine did. David B. had an aura about him that created a mystique about his "powers". The other one that more powerfully does this you probably haven't heard of yet. His name is Ahmed el Bayed who is a big star in the Middle East. The common thought over there is that he has special powers but conceals them by doing magic tricks so he can blend into society. lol... I'm not kidding, that is how he is actually perceived! It allows him to shift into any type of effect with ease and be totally believable.

Unfortunately, not everyone can pull off those characters so we need to focus on one cohesive image that the audience can accept.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 31, 2016 01:18PM)
Slim- You keep using the odd phrase "mentalism effects" and then jump to the conclusion that anyone who performs them is, therefore, a mentalist.

The effects are called "mental effects." (As in "Practical Mental Effects.")Whether or not they are mentalism or mental magic depends on who's doing them and the context in which they are performed.

Copperfield, as everyone seems to understand except you, is a famous magician who sometimes includes mental effects in his magic show. He has NEVER held himself out to be a mentalist.

Why do you insist on trolling this topic whenever it comes up?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (May 31, 2016 01:56PM)
Let's look at the definitions (As I always recommend)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism

This link puts David Copperfield on the same level as The Amazing Kreskin !!!!!!

A person who performs mentalism is a mentalist ... it's just that simple .. Even though he's the greatest magician of our era.

I know it's sour grapes for many of you ...but it's a fact.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mentalist

http://www.yourdictionary.com/mentalisthttp://www.dictionary.com/browse/mentalist
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 31, 2016 02:01PM)
But he doesn't perform mentalism. He is a magician that perform mental effects.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (May 31, 2016 02:02PM)
[quote]On May 30, 2016, Sleepymentalism wrote:
I'm likely to anger a lot of people by writing this....its 3am in the morning so please if my English is a bit off its because I'm tired...

Anyway.. I've heard many many many times on the Café people saying how you can't be a magician and mentalist at the same time due to the immense contrast in the performances....however I disagree to am extent...IMO you can definitely be a magician and mentalist at the same time...HOWEVER,you have to make sure your audience knows the difference between both and you need to separate them so as not to oerfrom mentalism whilst the audience thinking its magic....I know 99% of people will disagree with me

And I would love to hear your opinions...

Sleepy [/quote]
I agree ... A person can be a Dr. and a Lawyer. Nothing prevents them. In the same way a person can be a Magician and a Mentalist.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (May 31, 2016 02:03PM)
Https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqviqsmgcCA
Message: Posted by: Slim King (May 31, 2016 02:05PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, IAIN wrote:
Https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqviqsmgcCA [/quote]
Exactly ... a person can play both Pop and Blues!!!!!
Message: Posted by: IAIN (May 31, 2016 02:07PM)
You've failed this troll attempt...better luck next time!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 31, 2016 02:33PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Let's look at the definitions (As I always recommend)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism

This link puts David Copperfield on the same level as The Amazing Kreskin !!!!!!

[/quote]

Yes, it refers them both as magicians! Not surprised you didn't actually quote the Wikipedia article because it directly contradicts your silly notion that Copperfield is a mentalist. Here's the very section you conveniently neglected to mention:

[quote]...However, many magicians mix mentally-themed performance with magic illusions. For example, a mind-reading stunt might also involve the magical transposition of two different objects. Such hybrid feats of magic are often called mental magic by performers. Magicians who routinely mix magic with mental magic include David Copperfield, David Blaine, The Amazing Kreskin, and Dynamo.[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Slim King (May 31, 2016 02:51PM)
Exactly ... Copperfield is just like Kreskin!!!!! Kreskin was a Hypnotist first. He also does card tricks .. I've seen him do them. The card tricks don't prevent him from being a mentalist. I've personally worked with Copperfield and he IMHO is a fantastic Mind Reader. His presentations are flawless. His mind reading skills are better than anyone I've ever seen with the exception of J. C..... a VIP here on the Café. So to answer the question of the OP .. YES ... You can be both. Many performers do it. In fact I've seen Mentalists do balloon work!!!!! Being a good magician does not disqualify you from being a good mentalist.

I myself separate the two in performance for obvious reasons. Neither do I give a disclaimer.
Message: Posted by: Twisted Mentat (May 31, 2016 03:05PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Slim King wrote:
I myself separate the two in performance for obvious reasons. Neither do I give a disclaimer. [/quote]
And the reason is that you are a troll? :D
Just kidding.
Message: Posted by: Axel (May 31, 2016 03:11PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Exactly ... Copperfield is just like Kreskin!!!!! Kreskin was a Hypnotist first. He also does card tricks .. I've seen him do them. The card tricks don't prevent him from being a mentalist. I've personally worked with Copperfield and he IMHO is a fantastic Mind Reader. His presentations are flawless. His mind reading skills are better than anyone I've ever seen with the exception of J. C..... a VIP here on the Café. So to answer the question of the OP .. YES ... You can be both. Many performers do it. In fact I've seen Mentalists do balloon work!!!!! Being a good magician does not disqualify you from being a good mentalist.

I myself separate the two in performance for obvious reasons. Neither do I give a disclaimer. [/quote]


Man, this sounds quite manic...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 31, 2016 03:27PM)
Nah, Axel, this is just Slim's trolling style. He ignores any facts that prove him wrong and then just keeps repeating the same thing over and over ad nauseum. He has never, as far as I can recall, admitted to being wrong about anything, whether he understands a topic or not.

The next stage will be more of the same, but with lots of exclamation points and dancing fruits and vegetables.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (May 31, 2016 03:36PM)
[quote]...However, many magicians mix mentally-themed performance with magic illusions. For example, a mind-reading stunt might also involve the magical transposition of two different objects. Such hybrid feats of magic are often called mental magic by performers. [/quote]

Ah yes, there is little more convincing then those "mind-reading stunts"! Isn't the real issue when people place mental effect into the "hybrid" category with the solid implication that it is ultimately a "trick"? It MUST be viewed as a totally separate process and ability.
Message: Posted by: Axel (May 31, 2016 03:36PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Nah, Axel, this is just Slim's trolling style. He ignores any facts that prove him wrong and then just keeps repeating the same thing over and over ad nauseum. He has never, as far as I can recall, admitted to being wrong about anything, whether he understands a topic or not.

The next stage will be more of the same, but with lots of exclamation points and dancing fruits and vegetables. [/quote]

I've seen him do it quite often.I just don't understand what motivates him.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (May 31, 2016 04:02PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
...and dancing fruits and vegetables. [/quote]

there's a joke waiting to be said...i shall just mentally transmit it whilst producing sponge rabbits from inside a sealed envelope...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (May 31, 2016 04:51PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Axel wrote:
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Exactly ... Copperfield is just like Kreskin!!!!! Kreskin was a Hypnotist first. He also does card tricks .. I've seen him do them. The card tricks don't prevent him from being a mentalist. I've personally worked with Copperfield and he IMHO is a fantastic Mind Reader. His presentations are flawless. His mind reading skills are better than anyone I've ever seen with the exception of J. C..... a VIP here on the Café. So to answer the question of the OP .. YES ... You can be both. Many performers do it. In fact I've seen Mentalists do balloon work!!!!! Being a good magician does not disqualify you from being a good mentalist.

I myself separate the two in performance for obvious reasons. Neither do I give a disclaimer. [/quote]


Man, this sounds quite manic... [/quote]

Manic??? ... because I have a difference of opinion? Or because I walk the walk?
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (May 31, 2016 08:13PM)
Some would say no but just because they say it with conviction doesn't make it so. One can do magic, mentalism all within the same character. There will be those that oppose this notion and despite the fact that some most famous mentalists have done so. These inconvenient facts won't dissuade them from their fervent beliefs. Most intelligent people know it's a trick...as in magic. Watch as they gather to defend their sacred art and in doing so denigrate magic and magicians. It's so typical and tedious.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 31, 2016 08:16PM)
The famous mentalists who have done so were already firmly established as mentalists. That's the inconvenient fact that magicians who think the art forms can be indiscriminately mixed.

And I'd like to see JUST ONE example of my ever denigrating magicians. I've always loved magic.

I do see a lot of snide mentalist bashing here, though.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 31, 2016 08:25PM)
And even giving him the benefit of the doubt in believing you can mix magic and mentalism, that does not mean you should or it is in your best interest, without concern or incidence. You can drive a motorcycle nude through a zoo too, bit that doesn't mean you should or it;'s in your best interests.

Again all of this talk is from the "me" or "I" perspective. This is fine and great for all of you opinionated theorists, armchair mentalists and non-performers. But as real performers know, your own interests and desires are the least significant when working with agents, promoters, venues, clients and paying audiences.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (May 31, 2016 09:39PM)
Mixing magic and mentalism has worked for David Copperfield... It appears it was also in his best interest as his net worth approaches a Billion Dollars. (Currently over $800 million)
Message: Posted by: Axel (Jun 1, 2016 12:30AM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Slim King wrote:

(...)

Manic??? ... because I have a difference of opinion? Or because I walk the walk? [/quote]

No, sorry.
Not because you "walk the walk" and not because you have a different opinion.
It is not the content of what you write. It is the form you choose to use.

If you really would want to have a discussion with others then this writing-style makes no sense to me.
You are jumping from one conclusion to another, not really listening to anybody and are most of the time kind of "screaming" in your writing.
This would only make sense to me if you intentionally wanted to provoke people.
And I can't for the life of me figure out where you take the time from, the motivation and the energy to do something like that on a forum like this in your spare time.

I really don't understand what you are doing and what motivates you.
Sorry.
Axel
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 1, 2016 02:41AM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Mixing magic and mentalism has worked for David Copperfield... It appears it was also in his best interest as his net worth approaches a Billion Dollars. (Currently over $800 million) [/quote]

Exactly as I said earlier. Still intentionally ignoring the point that a mental effect is not mentalism when presented in the context of a magic show, and in full troll mode, you simply start saying the same thing over and over again. Now adding non sequitors like his net worth.
Message: Posted by: SolidSnake (Jun 1, 2016 05:19AM)
Let's flip it. Is a magic effect mentalism when presented in the context of a mentalism show?
Message: Posted by: Alexxander (Jun 1, 2016 09:10AM)
I think that depends - I have seen people use traditional magic effects framed as mentalism or hypnosis.
And that can work.
But other than that, I don't think it's well advised... a magic trick could make the audience wonder whether everything in the show is just an illusion.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 1, 2016 10:03AM)
Going back to the title of this thread and the initial topic, let me ask, why? Why would you want to be a magician and a mentalist?

Also it's always great, and a true sign of a baiting thread, when the OP doesn't continue their own participation in the thread they've started.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 1, 2016 10:44AM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
Going back to the title of this thread and the initial topic, let me ask, why? Why would you want to be a magician and a mentalist?

Also it's always great, and a true sign of a baiting thread, when the OP doesn't continue their own participation in the thread they've started. [/quote]
I agree and I don't agree. Many of the newbies taken to task here on the Café drop out.They are attacked by the same group of members, made to feel small and marginalized ....So they drop out.
You may call it baiting ... But this guy honestly had a question and he has been steam rolled by the regular group. It's so sad to see this. It's killing the Café. Intolerance of different ideas....Sad.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 1, 2016 11:02AM)
No Slim, It's trolling like yours that is the problem. The OP's question was answered politely and accurately before the thread was hijacked by you.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 1, 2016 11:17AM)
[quote]On May 30, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Sleepymentalism-

Your question doesn't anger me in the least, but it is more than a bit frustrating.

By your own admission just a few months ago, you are pretty much a beginner when it comes to learning mentalism. The question you ask here has been discussed to death, and probably beyond, on this forum since its creation. You, yourself, asked it just a few months ago.

There are very fundamental and sound reasons why mentalists never mix the two unless they are already well-known as mentalists. And even they will rarely use more than a single brief magic trick. And when a magician tries to do mentalism in his magic act it will simply be perceived as another magic trick. (The fact that many magicians in recent years have started to do this is one of the basic causes of the "trivialization" that you've probably seen discussed at length in other thread.)

I'm certainly not going to write extensively on the topic here, because I've already written thousands of words about it in the Café over the years. I'm sure that this isn't the first time you've heard this, but here it is again- use the search function. [/quote]
Sounds pretty dismal to me ... Very dismissive and demeaning.....
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 1, 2016 11:32AM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, SolidSnake wrote:
I'm sure I read a mentalist manuscript once that had card through window as an effect. [/quote]

I wrote that. We're not talking about mixing material in books, but in performance. Nelson created the sponge bunnies routine, but he certainly didn't perform them as Dr. Korda Ra Mayne.

I've said often that I love magic. I just don't mix it into my professional act.
Message: Posted by: David Thiel (Jun 1, 2016 11:38AM)
When I was a kid they used to sing a song that went "The wheels on the bus go round and round." Just like this topic.

CAN a person be a magician and a mentalist? No. No. No no no no.

Nope.

Negative.

"Why not?" you ask. It's a reasonable question. The difficult part is trying to give the answer. (Again.)

Guys can talk until their faces turn color about how one magic effect nestled into a mentalism show converts the whole client perception from "Gee I wonder if this is real" to..."I see. It's a trick. Hmmm. So if that's a trick...the whole show must be tricks."

They can also talk about how the difference in INTENT of the performer is different. The magician presents puzzles and part of the fun is trying to figure them out. But very few people with an IQ bigger than their shoe size believe it's all real. But a mentalist challenges an audience's view of reality...leads them into a question about whether what they've just seen can POSSIBLY be viewed as real.

There are a dozen other fundamental differences between a mentalist and a magician with reference to show structure, worldview, props...methods...costuming...and so much more. But there is NO POINT in raising them again and again.

Here's why: The vast majority of people who have a true gut level understanding of the difference between mentalism and magic are the people who have actually performed MENTALISM. I'm not talking about the watered down version of "mental magic." And I'm not even talking about a "mentalism themed act." I am talking about literal, actual mentalism...performed within the context of a mentalism performance.

It is like trying to explain the color red to someone who has been congenitally blind...or what a peach really tastes like to someone who has no ability to taste.

You either GET the difference...or you don't.

Wheels on the bus...

David
Message: Posted by: SleepyMagic (Jun 1, 2016 11:58AM)
Hi guys,
Thanks for your input on the topic....I think I will need to now chamge my opinion on this after reading the thread...but I'm not sure if I should stick to magic or mentalism

Also....apparently I've kind of came off as really obnoxious and big headed on this particular topic....and that is completely the opposite of how I want to be and how I intended to be perceived....I never wanted to "challenge" anyone I was just asking and stating my first opinion and I know it may have come off as me seeming like I know it all ....which I obviously don't.... And that was really the last I want my image to be....so if I acted "sickening" or big headed in any way I'm extremely sorry for what I mahhave come off as...

Sleepy
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 1, 2016 12:06PM)
Sleepy-

No, you didn't come off that way at all.

No need to apologize.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 1, 2016 12:53PM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2016, David Thiel wrote:
Here's why: The vast majority of people who have a true gut level understanding of the difference between mentalism and magic are the people who have actually performed MENTALISM. I'm not talking about the watered down version of "mental magic." And I'm not even talking about a "mentalism themed act." I am talking about literal, actual mentalism...performed within the context of a mentalism performance.

It is like trying to explain the color red to someone who has been congenitally blind...or what a peach really tastes like to someone who has no ability to taste.

You either GET the difference...or you don't.

Wheels on the bus...

David [/quote]

Right. If you do not truly get mentailsm or the differences between mentalism and magic, or if you have to ask this question...you are a magician. You just answered it yourself. Now you either come to terms and happily accept it (nothing wrong with it at all) OR you decide you want to pursue mentalism and commit to the process, understanding it is a process, a process best achieved by leaving your magic mentalities behind as you do so, and that it's not a simple read or understanding.

I think many have, do ad will find, that it is magic that is most of true interest to them all along.
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 1, 2016 08:05PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
The famous mentalists who have done so were already firmly established as mentalists. That's the inconvenient fact that magicians who think the art forms can be indiscriminately mixed.

And I'd like to see JUST ONE example of my ever denigrating magicians. I've always loved magic.

I do see a lot of snide mentalist bashing here, though. [/quote]

If they were firmly established as mentalists then the so called magic portion of their program would be inconsistent with their character. Perhaps instead there wasn't a real distinction between the two except a theoretical framework that's been added more recently. Maybe the armchair theorists are actually the so called mentalism purists that don't better know better than everyone else. Perhaps the rules they try to enforce aren't really rules as all. All of us play the character of a mystery performer which in itself has many manifestations. I can be a magician, a mentalist, or? In all cases I'm simply playing a theatrical role. It's all make believe and in that world the performer can create whatever reality they choose. These are called artistic choices. Dunninger made them, Derren Brown makes them and so do all other performers. Tired of people spouting off subjective be realities as gospel.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 1, 2016 08:11PM)
It's not about the performer though. The performer can also be wrong.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 1, 2016 08:18PM)
Educator-

Where did you get the ridiculous idea that I'm an armchair theorist? Project much?

And where is the example I requested of me EVER denigrating magic or magicians?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 1, 2016 09:00PM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:
[quote]On May 31, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
The famous mentalists who have done so were already firmly established as mentalists. That's the inconvenient fact that magicians who think the art forms can be indiscriminately mixed.

And I'd like to see JUST ONE example of my ever denigrating magicians. I've always loved magic.

I do see a lot of snide mentalist bashing here, though. [/quote]

If they were firmly established as mentalists then the so called magic portion of their program would be inconsistent with their character. Perhaps instead there wasn't a real distinction between the two except a theoretical framework that's been added more recently. Maybe the armchair theorists are actually the so called mentalism purists that don't better know better than everyone else. Perhaps the rules they try to enforce aren't really rules as all. All of us play the character of a mystery performer which in itself has many manifestations. I can be a magician, a mentalist, or? In all cases I'm simply playing a theatrical role. It's all make believe and in that world the performer can create whatever reality they choose. These are called artistic choices. Dunninger made them, Derren Brown makes them and so do all other performers. Tired of people spouting off subjective be realities as gospel.

Jeff [/quote]
That's the spirit!!!!
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jun 1, 2016 09:03PM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Educator-Where did you get the ridiculous idea that I'm an armchair theorist? Project much?[/quote]

Wow. Bob, thank you for your seemingly virtuoso patience and willingness to share your knowledge on here with those who appreciate it. At least your reputation is safe with those who matter. I'm just amazed that these other statements are the thoughts of someone that has set themselves up as an educator of future performers.
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 2, 2016 10:54AM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Educator-

Where did you get the ridiculous idea that I'm an armchair theorist? Project much?

And where is the example I requested of me EVER denigrating magic or magicians? [/quote]

Bob,

I was speaking to your previously shared ..."Dunninger Man of Mystery" comments. As for the arm chair theorists I wasn't referring to you or projecting anything about you. Since you hint at projecting and I wasn't then...well let's just leave it as online miscommunication where all the subtleties of language can be lost. Similarly for Ray who suggests that I'm educating magicians/mentalists. While I have had some students over the years that is not my primary business. I've performed professionally for almost 40 years, teach theatre and am a lifelong student of the mystery arts. The point that I'm trying to assert is that too many people seem to be very willing to tell others what is the truth about something we all know is very subjective. Art is like that. Rather than prescribing or insisting on adherence to a particular dogma why not agree to disagree or discuss the merits of each position. Instead we get arrows hurled from both sides and tautological arguments that are self serving at the very least. Hardly ridiculous I should think.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 2, 2016 11:41AM)
What "Dunninger Man of Mystery" comments? I don't recall ever referring to him that way. I'm not saying I haven't, but I really don't recall that. But I've often observed that mentalism and magic are both forms of entertainment, neither of which is inherently more entertaining, or "better" than the other.They are just fundamentally different.

But I agree with you about on-line communication. I've frequently said that there really are no rules in mentalism, or in any art for that matter, that cannot be broken. But it's really important to understand the reasoning behind them before breaking them.

Bob
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 2, 2016 05:07PM)
[quote]On Jun 2, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
What "Dunninger Man of Mystery" comments? I don't recall ever referring to him that way. I'm not saying I haven't, but I really don't recall that. But I've often observed that mentalism and magic are both forms of entertainment, neither of which is inherently more entertaining, or "better" than the other.They are just fundamentally different.

But I agree with you about on-line communication. I've frequently said that there really are no rules in mentalism, or in any art for that matter, that cannot be broken. But it's really important to understand the reasoning behind them before breaking them.

Bob [/quote]

I believe the Dunninger comments are from one of your teleseminars. I can't remember which one off the top of my head.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 2, 2016 09:07PM)
All I ever really said about Dunninger was to quote his famous remark, "Each time I add a prop my price goes down," which was said in the context of a discussion about the differences between mentalism and mental magic.

I fail to see how that is critical of magic or magicians in any way at all.

I went into a good bit of detail about my thoughts on magic and mentalism in my Guest of Honor week here in 2011.

This thread is a good example, although others touch on it as well:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=441407&forum=304

Bob
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 2, 2016 09:55PM)
The Question remains .... CAN YOU BE A MAGICIAN AND A MENTALIST??

The answer is YES!!!

It's America .... You can be anything you want! ;)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 2, 2016 10:22PM)
Slim-

Absolutely! You can pretend to be whatever you want. Whatever floats your boat. But it will always be everyone else's right to believe you or not.

The need for consistency and plausibility are the real issues in this thread.
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 2, 2016 11:38PM)
I hope this explains what I see as the difference between a magician and a mentalist...over a thirty year span I did kiddie magic shows/restaurant magic/walk around/stage, etc., yet I always wanted to transition, and become a mentalist, but I never got around to it (tuit)...heh...so, I'm now out of magic and have been for about 10 years, and I decided to put an act together...I hope I can have it ready to go in about 6 months (and it could take longer), to do it right...you can't just rush out and throw a few "mental effects" together and call yourself a mentalist...the right mental effects need to be selected to project yourself as someone with psychic abilities...after selection, they need to be practiced, a script needs to be written, and marketing must be done, etc...

IMHO, a magician performs a "magic show"...he does "magic tricks" to amuse an audience...a mentalist provides a demonstration of extra sensory perception (ESP), also called sixth sense, psychic abilities...the demonstrations will fall into several categories: telepathy, clairaudience, clairvoyance, precognition, etc...if you need definitions of what those mean, please let me know, and I'll provide them...being known as a magician and mixing magic and ESP together, would be the death knell of an act as a mentalist...all the audience needs to do is think "how did he fool me with that trick?" and you've failed as a mentalist...your "act" (don't forget Robert-Houdin's famous quote about acting) must be clearly NOT magic...there has to be a line between the two...now, I may do a few "magic tricks," occasionally, but only for relatives and friends...and, I won't be using my own name even though it hasn't been used in a decade, as a magician...I still want to get away from any remembrance of me as a magician thus, a stage name, and one that I hope will become somewhat known, at least locally...I don't specifically need "fame and fortune," as I'm just looking for a few gigs here and there to earn a bit more income (social security is a b*tch, to get myself out of the house (my mobility problem is giving me cabin fever), and the greatest focus will be on entertaining others...there's something that is calling me to do this, I only wish I'd done it earlier...I hope to carry nothing but a briefcase, and a very small sound system (I have several: small, medium, and large) as I'm also limited in what I can lift...but the urge to entertain tops everything...so, there's my two cents about the difference between a magician and a mentalist...if I'm wrong, please correct me...
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 2, 2016 11:53PM)
[quote]On Jun 2, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
All I ever really said about Dunninger was to quote his famous remark, "Each time I add a prop my price goes down," which was said in the context of a discussion about the differences between mentalism and mental magic.

I fail to see how that is critical of magic or magicians in any way at all.

I went into a good bit of detail about my thoughts on magic and mentalism in my Guest of Honor week here in 2011.

This thread is a good example, although others touch on it as well:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=441407&forum=304

Bob [/quote]

Bob,

It's time for me to relisten to your tele-seminars again anyways and I'm determined to find that Dunninger quote.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 3, 2016 12:24AM)
[quote]On Jun 2, 2016, M. Tessler wrote:
I hope this explains what I see as the difference between a magician and a mentalist...over a thirty year span I did kiddie magic shows/restaurant magic/walk around/stage, etc., yet I always wanted to transition, and become a mentalist, but I never got around to it (tuit)...heh...so, I'm now out of magic and have been for about 10 years, and I decided to put an act together...I hope I can have it ready to go in about 6 months (and it could take longer), to do it right...you can't just rush out and throw a few "mental effects" together and call yourself a mentalist...the right mental effects need to be selected to project yourself as someone with psychic abilities...after selection, they need to be practiced, a script needs to be written, and marketing must be done, etc...

IMHO, a magician performs a "magic show"...he does "magic tricks" to amuse an audience...a mentalist provides a demonstration of extra sensory perception (ESP), also called sixth sense, psychic abilities...the demonstrations will fall into several categories: telepathy, clairaudience, clairvoyance, precognition, etc...if you need definitions of what those mean, please let me know, and I'll provide them...being known as a magician and mixing magic and ESP together, would be the death knell of an act as a mentalist...all the audience needs to do is think "how did he fool me with that trick?" and you've failed as a mentalist...your "act" (don't forget Robert-Houdin's famous quote about acting) must be clearly NOT magic...there has to be a line between the two...now, I may do a few "magic tricks," occasionally, but only for relatives and friends...and, I won't be using my own name even though it hasn't been used in a decade, as a magician...I still want to get away from any remembrance of me as a magician thus, a stage name, and one that I hope will become somewhat known, at least locally...I don't specifically need "fame and fortune," as I'm just looking for a few gigs here and there to earn a bit more income (social security is a b*tch, to get myself out of the house (my mobility problem is giving me cabin fever), and the greatest focus will be on entertaining others...there's something that is calling me to do this, I only wish I'd done it earlier...I hope to carry nothing but a briefcase, and a very small sound system (I have several: small, medium, and large) as I'm also limited in what I can lift...but the urge to entertain tops everything...so, there's my two cents about the difference between a magician and a mentalist...if I'm wrong, please correct me... [/quote]
Will becoming a mentalist mean you are no longer a magician?
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 3, 2016 12:33AM)
As far as the public is concerned, yes...but we know how most of these effects are done, otherwise this thread would be unnecessary...don't you think after all these posts regarding this subject, that that's a rather silly question?
Message: Posted by: Alexxander (Jun 3, 2016 05:49AM)
It is, yes.

I think we should really just move on and accept that he won't understand it...
Message: Posted by: XyGreg (Jun 3, 2016 05:25PM)
A few months ago, I did magic tricks to a few spectators, and later in the day I did mentalism effects to the same spectators. They themselves perceived the mentalism as "different", they said "the magic was really cool but when you went into my head it was... Woaaaw!". So I think all is in the presentation, personnaly I like magic and mentalism so I can't "eliminate" one, so I think about how to handle that In the best way, it's all about personal preference and about how you want to be perceived. In the example I mention here, I think the spectator m thinke "well, he's a magician but also more than that, he literally went into my head!"
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 3, 2016 06:16PM)
Did you consider that the mentalism and magic were separated by several hours and what effect that might have had?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 3, 2016 08:15PM)
Also as any longtime experienced performer knows, you can't go by what audience members, (especially friends) tell you. Often they tell you what they think you want to hear, and more so they won't always tell you anything they think negatively. So most performers tend to only hear the favorable or positive skews. Just like only few people will complain at a restaurant after a bad experience, food or service. The MAJORITY do not, but will leave and never return and yet may tell others of their true dissatisfied feelings.

This is even more greatly magnified if it is someone you know (family, friends, co-workers, etc.)
Message: Posted by: XyGreg (Jun 4, 2016 04:54AM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Did you consider that the mentalism and magic were separated by several hours and what effect that might have had? [/quote]

Yes indeed :) All I mean is that if you like magic and mentalism you can find ways to handle this cleverly without having to drop one of them :)
Message: Posted by: Ed_Millis (Jun 4, 2016 11:24AM)
I enjoyed reading these words from Mr. Cassidy:
[quote]
Mentalism and mental magic, then, are different forms of entertainment. Both elicit different
perceptions and reactions from an audience. The mentalist, therefore, has an ethical responsibility
unknown to the conjuror or mental magician, for he is in a position to make people believe in, and rely
upon, to their detriment, his alleged powers.
...
It is very important that you believe in your abilities while you are on stage, as we will see.
[/quote]
As I perform my current shows, it is nearly impossible for me to believe in and project any kind of "alleged powers". I am so fully aware that I am doing "tricks", no matter how "mental" they are. Therefore, I classify myself as a magician, not any flavor of mentalist. Nor do I think I will be brave enough to take on that title until I can (at least on stage) believe in my abilities enough to lose the rest of what I must do.

Ed
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 4, 2016 11:40AM)
"The mentalist has an ethical responsibility to make people believe he has special powers." One might state quite the opposite in fact. That is that the "mentalist" (performer/actor playing a role) has an ethical responsibility to not perpetuate more mistaken belief in the paranormal. Like when the mentalist Gerry McCambridge ends his show by using the acronym MAGIC to explain that what the audience has just seen is a trick. One would hope that people would use common sense and realize that the show is in a theatre so it must be not real. Sadly they don't.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 4, 2016 11:51AM)
Why the misquote? Who exactly are you quoting, or else why the quotation marks?

What I wrote is, in fact, the exact opposite of your misquote.

What I wrote, which Ed cited correctly, is

[quote]The mentalist, therefore, has an ethical responsibility unknown to the conjuror or mental magician, for he is in a position to make people believe in, and rely upon, to their detriment, his alleged powers.[/quote]

NOWHERE does that say a mentalist has a responsibility to make people believe he has special powers.

So, since you made up the quote, you're arguing against a straw man.

Don't misquote me and that won't happen.
Message: Posted by: Joe Atmore (Jun 4, 2016 12:46PM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


If they were firmly established as mentalists then the so called magic portion of their program would be inconsistent with their character.

[/quote]

Not at all if you are referring to Dunninger (which folks who have not truly studied the history of mentalism love to tread out for this argument over and over again). I don't expect anyone to have studied his work and impact on the art as much as me (well maybe Bob!), but your position on this is flawed.
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 4, 2016 05:22PM)
Bob,

My apologies but I misread the quote. Wasn't trying to misrepresent your thoughts just a simple oversight. Not much point in creating a straw man argument when you agree with the person.

Joe,

I'm not sure that you can make claims that I "...haven't truly studied mentalism" since you don't actually know my background. Perhaps it could be that we disagree on this point but that doesn't necessarily make it flawed. If one does magic in a mentalism set then one is a magician or mental magic practicioner. This is something that's trumpeted by Bob and many others here in Penny. How do you go back and then say... well that doesn't really apply to Dunninger? There's no logic in that whatsoever. If he performs the linking rings for fun then tries to perform mentalism then one could argue that he has broken the mentalism spell he's about to cast. I'd be very interested in hearing what makes this argument flawed. In fact, my argument is completely valid. You question my premise but that doesn't make the argument flawed. The truth of my premise is a matter of subjective opinion. The argument form follows - If one does magic and mentalism in a show then one isn't a mentalist. Dunninger performed magic and mentalism. Therefore Dunninger isn't a mentalist. Seems a bit of an inconvient truth that doesn't fit the pure mentalist viewpoint. Would love to hear your thoughts on this point and not a personal attack that people who suggest otherwise just don't know any better. This doesn't move the argument forward or enlighten anyone. We often hear it is what it is and if you knew better then you'd understand. This is a cop out. It also comes across to some as rather self serving. The argument to the contrary should stand on it's own merit. Yes it does matter who says it but that doesn't dispute the fact that rather subjective arguments are still judged based on their merits and not who says them. I only ask the question so I'll thank people in advance for not calling me a troll or a flamer.

jeff
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 4, 2016 05:54PM)
If you don't agree. They certainly will call you names. Even beyond that the logic and reasoning are gone. They can never answer this question. What if the magicians magic was more believable than the mentalists performance? What if the magician had an effect far superior to theirs...... Then the mentalist routine is hurting the magicians presentation.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 4, 2016 08:24PM)
Even though Slim remains oblivious to it, the point has been made repeatedly. With his number one rated show on the NBC Blue network, Dunninger was the most famous mind reader in the United States, and well-established as "The Master Mentalist" long before he added a single magic effect to his act.

Guys who aren't established or known at all aren't in the same category.

And I'm still waiting for a quote of mine that shows me EVER disparaging magic or magicians.

Not holding my breath, though.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 4, 2016 10:37PM)
[quote]On Jun 4, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:
"The mentalist has an ethical responsibility to make people believe he has special powers." One might state quite the opposite in fact. That is that the "mentalist" (performer/actor playing a role) has an ethical responsibility to not perpetuate more mistaken belief in the paranormal. Like when the mentalist Gerry McCambridge ends his show by using the acronym MAGIC to explain that what the audience has just seen is a trick. One would hope that people would use common sense and realize that the show is in a theatre so it must be not real. Sadly they don't.

Jeff [/quote]


Is Gerry ending his current show like that now? I have not seen him in years in Vegas but don't remember the ending like that. I do however remember his sign out front stating he was a magician and mentalist. So many coming to Vegas don't know what a mentalist is so I get it that marketing part.
Message: Posted by: Magiconcio (Jun 5, 2016 03:40AM)
Guys, stop that. Obviously using a mind-reading trick makes me a mentalist. Just like how anyone that knows a key-card trick is a magician. That's how it works, right? I mean, what does this Bob Cassidy guy know at all, right? Putting the sarcasm aside, I have the utmost respect for your valuable opinions Mr. Cassidy.

Anyway, I have absolutely zero professional experience as either a magician or mentalist, but...

As I understand it the main difference between both isn't about the "theme" magicians and mentalists use. The main difference lies in the acting involved. While a magician will focus on amazing and entertaining by fooling the audience a mentalism goes to a greater lenght of being "believable". A magicians performing style is more tongue-in-cheek while a mentalist is more serious. Mentalists are way more acting-oriented.

That being said, a magician can try to act more "mentalist-like" without adding any mental effect at all to his performance by just trying to act more serious, fair and open. If you act slowly and deliberately and "build up" the effect then you'll be closer to a mentalism than performing the 21 card trick could. The 21 card trick, by the way, is an example of mental-themed card effect that won't put you in the category of a mentalist.

I hope what I'm saying isn't utterly bulls***.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 5, 2016 07:34AM)
Doing a card trick and saying it's a super memory experiment is just funny to me. I don't buy it. But many think it's mentalism by their definition and it puts them above the believability of magicianship..... I don't see it like that anymore..... I see the possibility of magic being so good that it's more believable than mentalism. I'm not talking about sponge bunny magic .... I'm talking about Magic and all of it's various dimensions.
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 5, 2016 08:18AM)
Regardless of whether you believe in a difference between a magician, a mentalist, or those that practice bizarre magick, or not, it's still just acting, with slightly different props, and a somewhat different twist to your performance...you are still ACTING to entertain your spectators...IMHO, I think we sometimes forget what our art is all about...the ultimate goal is to entertain the audience...none of us really make flowers appear out of thin air (we use a prop), use the skull and trinkets of the bizarre performer (they're still props), or read minds (using props), unless of course we're really psychic (which I am :winker:)...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 5, 2016 08:56AM)
I think doing mathematical based tricks whilst thinking you're the bee's knees just shows what happens when stupidity meets ego...
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 5, 2016 10:46AM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Doing a card trick and saying it's a super memory experiment is just funny to me. I don't buy it. But many think it's mentalism by their definition and it puts them above the believability of magicianship..... I don't see it like that anymore..... I see the possibility of magic being so good that it's more believable than mentalism. I'm not talking about sponge bunny magic .... I'm talking about Magic and all of it's various dimensions. [/quote]

I don't know slim. Seeing great stage illusions most I would think see the opposite, its just a trick. Or a card to across the room. Maybe children believe it more? Will give this some thought. You brought up some good issues though.

:question:
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Jun 5, 2016 11:05AM)
[quote]On Jun 4, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


Joe,

I'm not sure that you can make claims that I "...haven't truly studied mentalism" since you don't actually know my background.

jeff [/quote]

Magical Educator, who are you?

My question to my fellow magician’s on the Café is, does anyone know who Magical Educator is?

Lots of members on the Café have no identifying information and are anonymous, but they are not making judgements and posting comments on expertise as you do.

I do not post in this forum, I read and learn, when mastermindreader posts a comment. or shares advice, I read it very carefully and learn from him; I know who he is and I take his post very seriously.

You have posted that "I'm not sure that you can make claims that I ...haven't truly studied mentalism since you don't actually know my background".

Perhaps you might post a video of your performance so we all might see an example of your work. You might also consider posting some of your achievements and credentials so that we might be better able to critique a fellow performer.

Magical Educator, the random and subjective comments that you have posted on the Café don't really mean very much and I am looking forward to seeing your work.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 5, 2016 11:43AM)
Is this the "super memory" demonstration that Slim proclaims is not mentalism?

[youtube]WuHU9NZE0gs[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 5, 2016 01:29PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, Howie Diddot wrote:
[quote]On Jun 4, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


Joe,

I'm not sure that you can make claims that I "...haven't truly studied mentalism" since you don't actually know my background.

jeff [/quote]

Magical Educator, who are you?

My question to my fellow magician’s on the Café is, does anyone know who Magical Educator is?

Lots of members on the Café have no identifying information and are anonymous, but they are not making judgements and posting comments on expertise as you do.

I do not post in this forum, I read and learn, when mastermindreader posts a comment. or shares advice, I read it very carefully and learn from him; I know who he is and I take his post very seriously

You have posted that "I'm not sure that you can make claims that I ...haven't truly studied mentalism since you don't actually know my background".

Perhaps you might post a video of your performance so we all might see an example of your work. You might also consider posting some of your achievements and credentials so that we might be better able to critique a fellow performer.

Magical Educator, the random and subjective comments that you have posted on the Café don't really mean very much and I am looking forward to seeing your work. [/quote]

Howie,

Thanks for your interest in my work but once again your comments are off topic and don't discuss the merits (or not) of my argument. I sent you a message with a link to a thread. You may not know about my work but I do know about your thoughts on hang mentalism to pick up girls. Check it out:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=606145&forum=15

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 5, 2016 01:30PM)
Exactly!!! When asked after the show how many will say Card Trick and how many will say Super Memory Experiment when describing the show. I'm pretty sure that 4 out of 5 people would respond Trick when given the word Card. It's just how it is. IMHO most people would see this as a magic card trick and would describe it as such. But that doesn't bother me because I feel you can do both magic and mentalism.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 5, 2016 01:40PM)
And you'd be utterly wrong. That demonstration has been accepted as genuine by the vast majority of audiences.You are aware, are you not, that I also perform it with straight memory? The only difference is that the routine is about a half minute longer, and the cadence on the call-outs is regular rather than accelerating.

Get back to me when you know what you're talking about.
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 5, 2016 01:46PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Exactly!!! When asked after the show how many will say Card Trick and how many will say Super Memory Experiment when describing the show. I'm pretty sure that 4 out of 5 people would respond Trick when given the word Card. It's just how it is. IMHO most people would see this as a magic card trick and would describe it as such. But that doesn't bother me because I feel you can do both magic and mentalism. [/quote]

You're missing the point...it's about memorizing the order of a deck of cards in under 20 seconds...it's more in line with mentalism than magic, and it's not being presented as a card trick...it's being presented as a memory demonstration...and I've done the effect myself and never had anyone even remotely suspect it's anything other than mentalism and memory...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 5, 2016 01:48PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Get back to me when you know what you're talking about. [/quote]

i think the earth is due to expire in 14 billion years time, I don't think that's long enough...
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 5, 2016 01:49PM)
Ahhhh :lol: Bob beat me to the punch...I guess we were typing at the same time and he's faster than me...
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 5, 2016 03:01PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Exactly!!! When asked after the show how many will say Card Trick and how many will say Super Memory Experiment when describing the show. I'm pretty sure that 4 out of 5 people would respond Trick when given the word Card. It's just how it is. IMHO most people would see this as a magic card trick and would describe it as such. But that doesn't bother me because I feel you can do both magic and mentalism. [/quote]

Maybe in Florida they know what mentalism is Slim. From my neck of the woods they have no clue unless they were hooked on the Mentalist series until it was cut. You promote yourself as a mentalist for the on line window shopper GIGers and you may not get a lot of bookings. Book as a magician (and sub as a mentalist) and convince your clients you are mentalist one fairs better IMO.
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 5, 2016 06:05PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, M. Tessler wrote:
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Exactly!!! When asked after the show how many will say Card Trick and how many will say Super Memory Experiment when describing the show. I'm pretty sure that 4 out of 5 people would respond Trick when given the word Card. It's just how it is. IMHO most people would see this as a magic card trick and would describe it as such. But that doesn't bother me because I feel you can do both magic and mentalism. [/quote]

You're missing the point...it's about memorizing the order of a deck of cards in under 20 seconds...it's more in line with mentalism than magic, and it's not being presented as a card trick...it's being presented as a memory demonstration...and I've done the effect myself and never had anyone even remotely suspect it's anything other than mentalism and memory... [/quote]

I also do some card memory work but how do we know for sure that our audiences don't think that it's a card trick? I present it as memory and like to think I do a good job at acting, miscalling and such but how do we know for sure. Simple word association...Donald....Trump....Milk..shake...Card...trick. Not really a leap at all when we look at a bit more objectively. If one has applied the Logical Disconnect or Tamariz's Theory of False Solutions then less liklihood but still possible. People are convinced of all manner of unbelievable explanations.

jeff
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 5, 2016 06:29PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, M. Tessler wrote:

You're missing the point...it's about memorizing the order of a deck of cards in under 20 seconds...it's more in line with mentalism than magic, and it's not being presented as a card trick...it's being presented as a memory demonstration...and I've done the effect myself and never had anyone even remotely suspect it's anything other than mentalism and memory... [/quote]

I also do some card memory work but [b]how do we know for sure that our audiences don't think that it's a card trick?[/b] I present it as memory and like to think I do a good job at acting, miscalling and such but how do we know for sure. Simple word association...Donald....Trump....Milk..shake...Card...trick. Not really a leap at all when we look at a bit more objectively. If one has applied the Logical Disconnect or Tamariz's Theory of False Solutions then less liklihood but still possible. People are convinced of all manner of unbelievable explanations.

jeff [/quote]

Well, sometimes their reactions give you a clue...their reaction to it as a card trick, would seem to me (IMHO), to be a bit different than their reaction to it as mentalism and memory...it's just a feeling you get as to whether they believe in your psychic abilities...
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 5, 2016 07:33PM)
Old adage to look in the eyes of your audience and they will tell you everything that you need to know about how you're doing. That I do and believe but I don't know that I could successfully discern the differences as each person is so unique. I've had stunned silence, applause, audible gasps, screams, they run away and even where I was punched very hard in the chest. This last one was accompanied by the dialogue "Why did you do that?" (Me) "Cuz you're freaking me out!" (Crazy person)

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 5, 2016 08:14PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:
Old adage to look in the eyes of your audience and they will tell you everything that you need to know about how you're doing. That I do and believe but I don't know that I could successfully discern the differences as each person is so unique. I've had stunned silence, applause, audible gasps, screams, they run away and even where I was punched very hard in the chest. This last one was accompanied by the dialogue "Why did you do that?" (Me) "Cuz you're freaking me out!" (Crazy person)

Jeff [/quote]

Glad someone else sees stunned silence as a positive. It should happen a lot in a mentalist show (as long as snoring does not accompany of course).
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 5, 2016 08:18PM)
Too bad folks outside the showroom can't hear "stunned silence."
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 6, 2016 12:02AM)
But they reflect their true feelings in their reviews. :applause:


If you don't regularly get asked "about your gift, or where did you get your gift," stick with magician.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Jun 6, 2016 03:38AM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:

Joe,

I'm not sure that you can make claims that I "...haven't truly studied mentalism" since you don't actually know my background.

jeff [/quote]

[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, Howie Diddot wrote:

Magical Educator, who are you?

My question to my fellow magician’s on the Café is, does anyone know who Magical Educator is?

Lots of members on the Café have no identifying information and are anonymous, but they are not making judgements and posting comments on expertise as you do.

I do not post in this forum, I read and learn, when mastermindreader posts a comment. or shares advice, I read it very carefully and learn from him; I know who he is and I take his post very seriously

You have posted that "I'm not sure that you can make claims that I ...haven't truly studied mentalism since you don't actually know my background".

Perhaps you might post a video of your performance so we all might see an example of your work. You might also consider posting some of your achievements and credentials so that we might be better able to critique a fellow performer.

Magical Educator, the random and subjective comments that you have posted on the Café don't really mean very much and I am looking forward to seeing your work. [/quote]

[quote] On Jun 4, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:

Howie,

Thanks for your interest in my work but once again your comments are off topic and don't discuss the merits (or not) of my argument. I sent you a message with a link to a thread. You may not know about my work but I do know about your thoughts on hang mentalism to pick up girls. Check it out:Jeff

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=606145&forum=15[/quote]



Jeff,

My comments are not off topic, my question is right inline adding to what Joe had commented on and how you replied.


You judge members here, you boast that you are an educator and all you post on the Café is arguments, negative comments and you attempt to come off as superior to all members; you have been a member of the Café since 2003 and you have about 300 posts... not a very active contributor

What educational level have you achieved that qualifies you to ask active members to post videos for you to examine and critique?

I don't know why you would post a link that directs me to a thread that that has no bearing on my question, I don't know why you are PMing me...BTW, in the future don't PM me; just answer the question, who are you and what credentials have you achieved that elevates you to a level of a “magical educator” and post in a manner that conveys that you are superior to everyone here.

Joe in an earlier post made a statement that ' you haven't truly studied mentalism" you replied that "I'm not sure that you can make claims that I "...haven't truly studied mentalism" since you don't actually know my background'.

You are correct, no one knows your background and when you are questioned about your experience, your education or your training, you take great pains to avoid the question, but you want us to read your post and take what you say as authoritative.

Jeff; if the misdirection you attempt in the thread to avoid the question and posting unnecessary links is an indication of the misdirection you have learned in your studies, in my opinion, you should not be dispensing advice on the Café, you should be doing what I do, read the posts, be quiet and learn.

This post ends my communications with you in this thread; I have posted enough in this thread about your lack of credentials, if other members want to continue to post replies to your the random subjective and erroneous facts, at least they have been made aware of your deficiencies and shortcomings.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 6, 2016 05:01AM)
Is this the same Jheff who teaches high school in California (magical educator)?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 6, 2016 05:26AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
Is this the same Jheff who teaches high school in California (magical educator)? [/quote]

No. Jheff (note the spelling) and MagicalEducator (Jeff) are NOT the same person. Jheff is a well known creator, a member of the Magic Castle, and proprietor of Jheff's Marketplace of the Mind.

He's also my long time friend and business associate.

And, yes, he is a high-school teacher in Los Angeles, California.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 6, 2016 05:27AM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
But they reflect their true feelings in their reviews. :applause:
[/quote]

You made this post in response to mine. I have no idea who you are referring to.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 6, 2016 06:44AM)
For me, its pretty simple...

if you want to be seen as a classic mentalist, and be able to discuss classic mentalism with other classic mentalists - you need to have the same backbone of knowledge, terminology and so on...

if what you perform doesn't fall within those guidelines and framework, then its not classic mentalism...its something else, be it magic, mental magic, bizarrism etc

each require a different mindset and performing criteria...

and if you want to strike off on your own, and follow your vision or whatever you wanna call it, you still need to know that backbone, that structure and knowledge to begin with...

you don't suddenly become a jazz guitarist because you can play flamenco, though the commonality is that you would both have the knowledge of tuning, chords, structure and technique, but its also completely different on many levels too...the attack, the techniques splinter and change...

so until you can play as 'yourself' you need the base knowledge first...

just because hendrix and richie havens both used their thumbs in very similar ways when barring chords, doesn't mean they sound or play the same, and their philosophies are different too...

that's how I see it...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 6, 2016 07:58AM)
Jeff says..."Donald....Trump....Milk..shake...Card...trick" .. This is an elemental concept that every mentalist should understand!
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 6, 2016 08:51AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2016, Howie Diddot wrote:
[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:

Joe,

I'm not sure that you can make claims that I "...haven't truly studied mentalism" since you don't actually know my background.

jeff [/quote]

[quote]On Jun 5, 2016, Howie Diddot wrote:

Magical Educator, who are you?

My question to my fellow magician’s on the Café is, does anyone know who Magical Educator is?

Lots of members on the Café have no identifying information and are anonymous, but they are not making judgements and posting comments on expertise as you do.

I do not post in this forum, I read and learn, when mastermindreader posts a comment. or shares advice, I read it very carefully and learn from him; I know who he is and I take his post very seriously

You have posted that "I'm not sure that you can make claims that I ...haven't truly studied mentalism since you don't actually know my background".

Perhaps you might post a video of your performance so we all might see an example of your work. You might also consider posting some of your achievements and credentials so that we might be better able to critique a fellow performer.

Magical Educator, the random and subjective comments that you have posted on the Café don't really mean very much and I am looking forward to seeing your work. [/quote]

[quote] On Jun 4, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:

Howie,

Thanks for your interest in my work but once again your comments are off topic and don't discuss the merits (or not) of my argument. I sent you a message with a link to a thread. You may not know about my work but I do know about your thoughts on hang mentalism to pick up girls. Check it out:Jeff

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=606145&forum=15[/quote]



Jeff,

My comments are not off topic, my question is right inline adding to what Joe had commented on and how you replied.


You judge members here, you boast that you are an educator and all you post on the Café is arguments, negative comments and you attempt to come off as superior to all members; you have been a member of the Café since 2003 and you have about 300 posts... not a very active contributor

What educational level have you achieved that qualifies you to ask active members to post videos for you to examine and critique?

I don't know why you would post a link that directs me to a thread that that has no bearing on my question, I don't know why you are PMing me...BTW, in the future don't PM me; just answer the question, who are you and what credentials have you achieved that elevates you to a level of a “magical educator” and post in a manner that conveys that you are superior to everyone here.

Joe in an earlier post made a statement that ' you haven't truly studied mentalism" you replied that "I'm not sure that you can make claims that I "...haven't truly studied mentalism" since you don't actually know my background'.

You are correct, no one knows your background and when you are questioned about your experience, your education or your training, you take great pains to avoid the question, but you want us to read your post and take what you say as authoritative.

Jeff; if the misdirection you attempt in the thread to avoid the question and posting unnecessary links is an indication of the misdirection you have learned in your studies, in my opinion, you should not be dispensing advice on the Café, you should be doing what I do, read the posts, be quiet and learn.

This post ends my communications with you in this thread; I have posted enough in this thread about your lack of credentials, if other members want to continue to post replies to your the random subjective and erroneous facts, at least they have been made aware of your deficiencies and shortcomings. [/quote

Howie,

Is your puppet posting again? I PM'd you because you PM'd me twice about this very topic. This was after you shared a mentalism script you're using to pick up women. Not surprisingly l and others have commented our opinions on this very creepy practice. I'm sorry that you didn't like my opinion but as you can see form the thread I provided there are several pages of people who feel exactly the same way I do. Since then you've trolled some of the few threads that I've posted on demanding to know who I am and what my background is. Gosh I wonder why people don't want to share personal information online?!

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Joe Atmore (Jun 6, 2016 09:56AM)
And to be clear, I was referring to studying Dunninger's work and his influence on the public and mentalism and magic communities and the history thereof. Dunninger's work I certainly feel I am very well qualified to discuss.

Just like if Fogel's work was used to defend a position that was not correct, you might have Marks and Woodward set the record straight. Or Domingo for Nelson, etc.
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 6, 2016 11:18AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2016, Joe Atmore wrote:
And to be clear, I was referring to studying Dunninger's work and his influence on the public and mentalism and magic communities and the history thereof. Dunninger's work I certainly feel I am very well qualified to discuss.

Just like if Fogel's work was used to defend a position that was not correct, you might have Marks and Woodward set the record straight. Or Domingo for Nelson, etc. [/quote]

Thank you for sharing this Joe. I would love to hear more about why you think Dunninger did this. From the outside looking in it just seems so incongruent.

jeff
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 7, 2016 12:05AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jun 6, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Jeff says..."Donald....Trump....Milk..shake...Card...trick" .. This is an elemental concept that every mentalist should understand! [/quote]

You forgot one. Slim...clueless. [/quote]
Why do you insult someone who simply doesn't agree with you.....????? Seems childish to me. :dancing:
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 7, 2016 02:02AM)
Childish? From me? LOL !!!

The irony is unbearable!
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Jun 7, 2016 02:25AM)
Bob, I believe that would have been a good place for the dancing balloons....
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 7, 2016 02:42AM)
I resisted, because THAT would have been childish.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 7, 2016 03:35AM)
Up next, balloons and mentalism...who is full of hot air and a blowhard?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 7, 2016 03:12PM)
Jim Callahan does balloons in his show ... So fun!!!!
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 12, 2016 03:42AM)
[quote]On Jun 7, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Jim Callahan does balloons in his show ... So fun!!!! [/quote]

Yeah I remember that. Where is Jim these days?
Message: Posted by: billion (Jun 12, 2016 09:15AM)
Magic and mentalism are so commingled these days. I recently went to a 4 year old's birthday party, and the clown who started with juggling and magic tricks...even the clown started doing mentalism routines.

What kind of message does this spread? Even a clown can read minds.

Billion
Message: Posted by: IMAGINACIAN (Jun 12, 2016 12:56PM)
Well, here's my 2c. Yes, you CAN be a magician AND a mentalist. Very much like you can be a drummer and a lawyer. Only that you cannot and should not perform both at the same time. You cannot 'drum' in a court while arguing your case. Similarly, you should not perform magic and mentalism in the SAME show. You will screw up both. IMHO
Message: Posted by: billion (Jun 12, 2016 12:58PM)
Good points!

Billion

[quote]On Jun 12, 2016, IMAGINACIAN wrote:
Well, here's my 2c. Yes, you CAN be a magician AND a mentalist. Very much like you can be a drummer and a lawyer. Only that you cannot and should not perform both at the same time. You cannot 'drum' in a court while arguing your case. Similarly, you should not perform magic and mentalism in the SAME show. You will screw up both. IMHO [/quote]
Message: Posted by: IMAGINACIAN (Jun 12, 2016 01:20PM)
Thank you Billion. But you would not have expected that a question you asked on the Polarity thread (which I appreciate) will get asked to you yourself !

Did you plagiarize or not? Are you Lior Suchard or LIAR Suchard? YES or NO? And avoiding Bob may not be a good idea.

(btw sorry for the pun Lior Suchard - the real one)
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 12, 2016 01:22PM)
[quote]On Jun 12, 2016, IMAGINACIAN wrote:
Well, here's my 2c. Yes, you CAN be a magician AND a mentalist. Very much like you can be a drummer and a lawyer. Only that you cannot and should not perform both at the same time. You cannot 'drum' in a court while arguing your case. Similarly, you should not perform magic and mentalism in the SAME show. You will screw up both. IMHO [/quote]


I agree. I think what guys can't get straight is separating "can" from "should." There are many things one CAN do, the better question is SHOULD they? Most of the time the answer is no.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 12, 2016 06:26PM)
[quote]On Jun 12, 2016, billion wrote:
Magic and mentalism are so commingled these days. I recently went to a 4 year old's birthday party, and the clown who started with juggling and magic tricks...even the clown started doing mentalism routines.

What kind of message does this spread? Even a clown can read minds.

Billion [/quote]

I do admit stuff like the above bothers me. More so earlier but still. I remember reading about MOABT and how a clown was doing it. Making mentalism into a trick I think is a disaster.

THat being said, consider this scenario. You are at a paid gig (nothing against novice just stay with me). There are little ones at this gig. You perform a few mentalism walkaround sets and the client or a parent walks over to you and ask if you can do some "tricks" for the little ones. Before you say anything, this is after a plethora of comments regarding your special gift, ie; how long have you had this gift etc.

Do you break out a TT if you have one in your go to bag? Do you do a little impromptu magic for the lad? Or do you stumble through some kiddie mentalism for the toddler while he stares into space having no clue what the heck you are doing?

Decomposing Discussion
:cry: :cry: :cry: :bawl: :cry:
Message: Posted by: bdekolta (Jun 13, 2016 11:39AM)
There are certain mentalism routines that play quite well for children or adults. So you do those. They won't be as strong as some others but they do work. The key is to let the kids have fun and let the adults see that you entertained them while still being who you are.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 13, 2016 06:07PM)
I just don't have any for age 4 and under though. Five maybe.....Two and under is really tough...
Message: Posted by: Alexxander (Jun 13, 2016 06:15PM)
Why would you want to perform for children that young?!

If a parent would ask me to perform for their young kid, I would simply and politely decline and just talk to the kid..
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 13, 2016 06:59PM)
Because they are child perhaps. I want to please the client, ie, the parent. So you are saying there is no way you would ever perform a little magic for a young child? Well, we have to agree to disagree then. :cry:
Message: Posted by: Alexxander (Jun 13, 2016 07:06PM)
I would, and in fact I have performed magic for kids.
But only privately and informally.
I would never do this at a gig where I am booked as a mind reader...

And I don't think any parent would ask you to perform magic for their kids when you made clear that you are a mind reader.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 13, 2016 09:55PM)
Well, they book me as a mentalist here and all they want is entertainment....I do strolling also and no event planner gives a hoot what you do as long as you are entertaining...like I said, agree to disagree.

Jim Callaghan who is a well known paranormalist in the USA does balloon animals at some events and no one cares. Kreskin does magic tricks and no one cares.
Richard Osterlind does magic. Now no one is saying to break out some sponge balls during a show and show them magic tricks. I am talking about walkaround.....

I think its just the way you prefer it....and I am sure there are people in your audience who would think what you are doing is magic anyways.

If I was flying on an aircraft and all the stewards were incapacitated and someone had an emergency. You think the pilot would refuse to help out? My clients expect me to entertain. That is what I provide. If they want me to go over to a table and do something for the toddlers I will comply to the best of my abilities.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 14, 2016 04:47AM)
[quote]On Jun 12, 2016, billion wrote:
Magic and mentalism are so commingled these days.
Billion [/quote]

back in the late 40's - 60's there was little distinction. A magician performed effects considered impossible by the audience -- that was the focus.
So, "these days" seems strange to me. Books offered magic tricks, mental puzzles, mental magic and mentalism effects with suggestions about "routining"
a show based on the expectations of the audience and setting.

Top performers like Ormand McGill and Arnold Furst chose to separate their shows as to "physical" and "mental" impossibilities, so I guess "commingle" might be valid,
but this was not from any later idea that offering both in the same show was inappropriate.

The problem is mixing poor effects with good ones for a particular audience, the key factor being what the audience expects.
For me, the power of a Mentalist is performing for an audience of folks who appreciate mental based effects and seek validation of what they already believe to be true.
I would not mess up that connection by throwing in linking rings (or any known magic effect) even if claimed to be done with "mental powers." This would disrespect the audience.

As MIndpro mentioned, "Should you commingle?" Should you meet requests of the audience or present a pre-planned/practiced show?

On the flip side, I would never do a mind reading effect while table hopping in a restaurant.

I would suggest that what people consider to me magic "these days" as opposed to decades ago should be considered, and the reason why they desired to be entertained by a performer or any sort.
Both of these are often so commingled that attempting to be "more magical" is hardly worth the effort.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 14, 2016 01:59PM)
[quote]On Jun 14, 2016, funsway wrote:
[quote]On Jun 12, 2016, billion wrote:
Magic and mentalism are so commingled these days.
Billion [/quote]

back in the late 40's - 60's there was little distinction. A magician performed effects considered impossible by the audience -- that was the focus.
So, "these days" seems strange to me. Books offered magic tricks, mental puzzles, mental magic and mentalism effects with suggestions about "routining"
a show based on the expectations of the audience and setting.

Top performers like Ormand McGill and Arnold Furst chose to separate their shows as to "physical" and "mental" impossibilities, so I guess "commingle" might be valid,
but this was not from any later idea that offering both in the same show was inappropriate.

The problem is mixing poor effects with good ones for a particular audience, the key factor being what the audience expects.
For me, the power of a Mentalist is performing for an audience of folks who appreciate mental based effects and seek validation of what they already believe to be true.
I would not mess up that connection by throwing in linking rings (or any known magic effect) even if claimed to be done with "mental powers." This would disrespect the audience.

As MIndpro mentioned, "Should you commingle?" Should you meet requests of the audience or present a pre-planned/practiced show?

On the flip side, I would never do a mind reading effect while table hopping in a restaurant.

I would suggest that what people consider to me magic "these days" as opposed to decades ago should be considered, and the reason why they desired to be entertained by a performer or any sort.
Both of these are often so commingled that attempting to be "more magical" is hardly worth the effort. [/quote]

Well said....
Message: Posted by: Sven Rygh (Jun 15, 2016 09:09AM)
No!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 15, 2016 10:19AM)
[quote]On Jun 14, 2016, funsway wrote:
[quote]On Jun 12, 2016, billion wrote:
Magic and mentalism are so commingled these days.
Billion [/quote]

back in the late 40's - 60's there was little distinction. A magician performed effects considered impossible by the audience -- that was the focus.
So, "these days" seems strange to me. Books offered magic tricks, mental puzzles, mental magic and mentalism effects with suggestions about "routining" a show based on the expectations of the audience and setting.

[/quote]

Little distinction in the 40's and 50's?

Really? That era was a heyday of nightclub mind readers. And Dunninger and Franz Polgar were at the peak of their popularity on radio and television.

There was a clear distinction.

And from that same era you might refer to the books of Robert Nelson.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 15, 2016 04:13PM)
What about Theodore 'Theo' Annemann aka Ted? Was there a distinction between mental magic of the 20th century and mental magic now?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 15, 2016 04:42PM)
Annemann never really achieved significant fame as a mentalist.

Even though the distinction was clear since the 19th Century, we didn't start specifically writing about the differences between mentalism and mental magic until the 1970's.
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Jun 15, 2016 07:40PM)
The historical timeline helps give some perspective. Thanks!

I do mental magic shows for psychology classes at the college where I teach. (I teach English but am invited to psychology classes of other instructors.) I usually open with one magic effect, follow up with a mental effect with cards, and move on to pure mental effects, usually closing with a prediction. The shows are introduced as mental magic.

This is probably the kind of mixing the Inner Thoughts crowd detests, but there you have it. I've been doing the shows for years and can do them in my sleep--one out of a brief case, one out of a sample case, and one out of a storage chest.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 16, 2016 01:57AM)
Thanks Alan for your honesty....
Message: Posted by: Axel (Jun 16, 2016 05:40AM)
[quote]On Jun 15, 2016, Alan Wheeler wrote:
The historical timeline helps give some perspective. Thanks!

I do mental magic shows for psychology classes at the college where I teach. (I teach English but am invited to psychology classes of other instructors.) I usually open with one magic effect, follow up with a mental effect with cards, and move on to pure mental effects, usually closing with a prediction. The shows are introduced as mental magic.

This is probably the kind of mixing the Inner Thoughts crowd detests, but there you have it. I've been doing the shows for years and can do them in my sleep--one out of a brief case, one out of a sample case, and one out of a storage chest. [/quote]

Hi Alan!

It sounds like you're doing a great job!
If I may ask a question:
How is the mentalism received by the students? What do they think is happening?
I am just curious because I would think that as a teacher at you college and in the context of a psychology class
you probably already have quite a strong premise going for you:
How the mind can be manipulated.

If you present the mentalism as something psychological in nature then that would probably fit quite nicely together with
a magic trick in the beginning. Because the premise stays intact.
And I like how you move from magic to cards to pure mentalism.
That probably makes it easier for the students to buy in that later the mentalism works on a similar level as the magic trick:
Manipulation of attention.
If that is the case then I could totally see that working.
If you present yourself and what you do as psychic in nature, then that would probably not work as well...
However I might be totally wrong.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the story.
Have a nice day,
Axel
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 16, 2016 08:47AM)
There is a third way I've seen it presented in psychology classes- as an example of how easily people can be deceived by seemingly paranormal phenomena.

To my mind, that is not mentalism at all and I hope it's not what we're talking about here.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 16, 2016 02:57PM)
What I use to do is separate magic tricks from mentalism when performing. Many will disagree but it was the magic tricks that paid the bills (from spending on magic tricks). :arg:
Message: Posted by: JackMagic (Jun 16, 2016 04:38PM)
What about Paul Romhany ?

He is both Magician and Mentalist
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 16, 2016 04:59PM)
Is he?
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 16, 2016 05:02PM)
We all on Café....Magicians helping Magicians. Even Steve is a Magician. Plenty of mystery entertainer sites to go to but we always come back. I am a hypnotist also but don't spend a lot of time on the Sleepy section. Its because I cannot buy enough hypno gimmicks. However, I can always give latest and greatest new creations my money. :hrmph:
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Jun 16, 2016 07:51PM)
I do not do debunking or any kind of Amazing-Randi-type approach, if that's what you mean, Bob.

Axel, I often do a show when the students have a chapter on perception. I go from the "sleight-of-hand" magic into "sleight-of-mind magic," with the subtext that all magic is psychological.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 16, 2016 08:38PM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2016, Alan Wheeler wrote:
I do not do debunking or any kind of Amazing-Randi-type approach, if that's what you mean, Bob.
[/quote]

That's exactly what I meant and I'm happy to hear that you don't do that.

Best,

Bob
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 16, 2016 08:51PM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jun 16, 2016, Alan Wheeler wrote:
I do not do debunking or any kind of Amazing-Randi-type approach, if that's what you mean, Bob.
[/quote]

That's exactly what I meant and I'm happy to hear that you don't do that.

Best,

Bob [/quote]

Whew, Aren't we all!
Message: Posted by: Desolate Ruin (Jun 17, 2016 09:26PM)
To answer the question and give my two cents: Yes, one can be a magician and a mentalist.
But it needs to be done artfully and carefully, without breaking the premise or flow of performance.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 17, 2016 10:21PM)
How about introducing yourself and telling us a bit about your background before answering questions and giving us your pennies. :eek:
Message: Posted by: John C (Jun 17, 2016 11:04PM)
[quote]On Jun 17, 2016, Desolate Ruin wrote:
To answer the question and give my two cents: Yes, one can be a magician and a mentalist.
But it needs to be done artfully and carefully, without breaking the premise or flow of performance. [/quote]

Alright then. Problem solved. Thread over.

Thank you Mr Ruin.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jun 18, 2016 01:40AM)
If only we had read that earlier he could have saved us 5 pages of useless palaver.
Message: Posted by: SolidSnake (Jun 18, 2016 04:53AM)
You can be a magician and a mental magic magician but not magician and mentalist. A magician is someone who tries to fool his audience with tricks , a mentalist is someone who demonstrates unique mental phenomenon and doesn't ever do tricks. Trying to be both just diminishes the mentalism. Stop trying to be both : if you are happy being a magician and want to do tricks then be a magician.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 18, 2016 05:20AM)
Of course this is correct, but it seems some magicians still have trouble understanding this. My question is what's wrong with them just being magicians? Is that not enough for them any more? Why this insistence and infatuation with mentalism (seriously)?
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 18, 2016 10:42AM)
[quote]On Jun 18, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
Of course this is correct, but it seems some magicians still have trouble understanding this. My question is what's wrong with them just being magicians? Is that not enough for them any more? Why this insistence and infatuation with mentalism (seriously)? [/quote]

"Of course this is correct". Sounds so final and prescriptive. How does one know that this applies to all performing situations or performers? The answer "of course" is we don't. You seem to further contend that if one doesn't then You must be a "magician" who has an infatuation with mentalism. I suppose one could also argue what's with all these mentalists trying to be hypnotists? Aren't their little tricks enough for them? Why do they need to be infatuated with hypnotism, NLP, etc? The phrase used by the previous post uses the wording "little tricks" which suggests that magic is a lesser art in comparison. As soon as folks start using absolutes my BS meter starts to activate and wonder well why not? The next comments will be that I must be a magician to say such a thing and that I don't know better. Then I suppose cries of who is this heretic and why can't I see his profile? But why attack the character? Is it because he disagrees with you? Hmmm. The final comments will invariably be that this is just further evidence of the end of mentalism and the free world as we know it. It's being trivialized by being in the same act/show. Careful...you got some magic on you! All of which are not very complimentary to magic or magicians. The final denouement will be to ask thoughtfully "What's with all of these flamers?" Remember a flamer can be loosely defined as anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion about mentalism, mental magical or those who do their little tricks. All sounds a lot like Gob from Arrested Development who fights valiantly for his art through the Alliance.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 18, 2016 11:11AM)
I must say I disagree with almost everything you said in that post. As much as you may choose to disagree (an opinion) and choose the "artistic" mentality of "everything is subjective and open to personal interpretation," that is very limited thinking from only one sunjective perspective (in this example, your own) which is that of the performer. The primary perspective is and has always been that of the recipient (audience) and the hiring entity, the client (who is paying for it).

They will and likely do not see everything with the artistic liberties that seem to drop into each of your perspectives. I believe this is why other members have questioned you "teaching/educating" and your "performance" history as they have in recent threads. I sat back and just observed but I do see this element in every post in those threads.

You have to be blind not to see the trend and points that I, Bob and many others here have referenced here that are made as they are on nearly every thread here and in IT. They are coming from magicians that have difficulty understanding the differences between magic and mentalism,. I explained this perfectly in detail in the IT thread thanks to E.E. post. I have also said repeatedly there is nothing wrong with being a magician. They should accept it, embrace it and be proud, rather than be so infatuated with mentalism, ESPecially if it is something they truly do not understand and don't get (the actual and foundational differences).

It really is quite simple. It only gets complicated when the one-sided (as referred to above) and artistic mentalities come into play with the rebel attitude of "you can do anything you want" and "there are no rules." This only seems to digress the discussion while driving many away.

You staetment " Remember a flamer can be loosely defined as anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion about mentalism, mental magical or those who do their little tricks" is not at all the definition of flaming or flamers. There are plenty here with different or opposing opinions that are not flaming.

Btw, I have not seem any inkling of a trend of mentalists coming over to hypnosis. Again, I strongly disagree and have no idea where you got that one from.

Also I asked a legitimate question at the end of the last post of...My question is what's wrong with them just being magicians? Is that not enough for them any more? Why this insistence and infatuation with mentalism (seriously)?

Please don't derail this discussion as I would genuinely like to hear the answer form some of these magicians.
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 18, 2016 12:05PM)
Thanks for answering thoughtfully Mindpro but we do agree to disagree. It becomes very subjective because it's a performance art and not a performing science. Bob himself tells us that the only rule is that there are no rules. He further goes on to state that we must understand these "rules" before we can start breaking them. It all gets more complicated but in the end I would assert that it's the performer that makes these choices and not the audience. I decide what impact/emotion/message I want to share through my art. I'm wise to heed who my audience is but they don't fully dictate the artistic vision that I have of my work. Do I have want laughter, applause, stunned silence, sadness, discomfort or? These are the choices that I wonder about as I develop a piece for my shows.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: JackMagic (Jun 18, 2016 12:07PM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
Is he? [/quote]

Clearly if you have watched the Scryer Project he is very knowledgable

Or maybe you have never heard of Scryer ?
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 18, 2016 12:08PM)
[quote]On Jun 18, 2016, Mindpro wrote:
My question is what's wrong with them just being magicians? Is that not enough for them any more? Why this insistence and infatuation with mentalism (seriously)?
[/quote]
I'll be serious (for a change), and I'm definitely not responding to you personally in my comments ... even though I use the word "you" for clarity and convenience.

A question like this first presumes that "you" have the authority to ask it.

"You" don't.

In the broadest of terms, nobody "owns" mentalism, and no one person can (or should) presume that they can influence the vetting process as to who can, and who can't delve into Mentalism for their own purposes.

I happen to think the definitive answer to the OP's question is [i]"Absolutely not"[/i], you can't be a Magician and a Mentalist because the optics of both (the image you wish to put out there) are like chalk and cheese.
They're so different in their demeanor, their thinking, and their intent as to be the same as asking if you can be a Professional Race Card Driver and a Magician ... you can be, but they have nothing to do with each other, and therefore the question becomes one of simply [i]"well ... what do you want your life experience to look like?[/i]"

I [b]do[/b] believe that Magicians seriously dilute the essential secrets of Mentalists, but Mentalists continue to market their tricks and books at places like Penguin, and they continue to vie for [b]"Trick of the Year"[/b] here on the Café, and guys like me (not a magician per see, but a Gambling and Card persona) read the Magic Café and see things like the devastatingly brilliant [b]Tequila Hustler[/b], see the potential to tap into that amazing thinking to apply to Magic (in my case, Tequila Hustler becomes a story about Poker Tells), and YES, there I am diluting super-powerful foundational thinking as it applies to mentalism, and using it in a gambling magic trick.

Am I evil or deluded for doing so? ... I don't think so.
Do I disrespect mentalists (despite my giving them stick for trying so hard for "trick of the year" :) ) ... Nope, I admire their craft profoundly.
But there it was ... [b]Tequila Hustler[/b] ... waiting for me to buy on the Penguin Store (in fact it's been the #1 or #2 purchase for the past few weeks).

Not sure what the answer is, but asking why magicians can't just [i]"stay in their lane"[/i] certainly isn't one of them.

I would posit that the main elements that would result in the change that some mentalists seem to want to achieve would be the departure of mentalists from magic forums, and the concentration of mentalists in something like your PEA forums.
If you continually hold your discussions, market your products, and then make those products available in online magic stores ... you will continue to attract Magicians like flies.

As long as the roughly 30 mentalists who post here in Penny continue to hold their discussions in front of 63,310 magicians here on the Café, those magicians will continue to become entranced with some of the core ideas in the mentalism process, and will continue to eagerly purchase your mentalism effects from Penguin Magic as you continue to release them in great numbers to the public at large.
As magicians would 100% be expected to do ... they will then perform those mentalism effects as mental-magic, or worse ... as a straight up magic trick.

Personally, I enjoy reading the Penny and Inner forums, and would hate to see them dry up ... but to be blunt, reading those Mentalism forums has taught me a great deal about the secrets behind the mentalism process ... secrets I'd not (as a magician) have ever even known existed if Mentalists hadn't been openly discussing them here on what is essentially a Magic and Magicians message board.
And it has taught me about mentalism effects I can purchase, and then re-pupose for my own uses ... or worse (in terms of this discussion) that I can buy strictly to satisfy my curiosity as to method.

As long as Mentalists feel compelled to hold their most detailed discussions in front of Magicians, Magicians will respond with their wallets and their opinions, and they will continue to buy and use Mentalism effects in their Magic shows.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Jun 18, 2016 01:08PM)
Artie:

I don't take the discussion as to who can perform what, but more as generally, if you perform magic material with mentlism material, audiences will see the act as magic.

In my experience, I can name a few show type exceptions, spirit theater (for lack of a better term), and some bizarre magic mixes well with aspects of psychic entertainment.

On the subject of notable performers mixing both. Kreskin and Dunninger are/were known for who they are/were, they transcend(ed) what they did/do. My opinion, of course.


Tony Iacoviello
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 18, 2016 01:22PM)
Artie-

You make some good points, but you should note that over 80% of my written works, lectures, etc. is theory.

If so many magicians are flocking to buy my stuff, I have to wonder why they're not reading it. Because if they were, they wouldn't be diluting mentalism the way they do.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 18, 2016 02:53PM)
***Extended post warning***

Bob, I think the answer to your question is that Magicians generally scour forums, books, and DVD's looking for things to add to their [b]magic shows[/b]! ... and when they're [i]not[/i] looking for things to add to their magic shows, they're simply looking for methods, gaffs and gimmicks to fulfill their desire to know how things are done ... to simply "know the secret" as it were.

There's a good chance that Magicians reading your books simply gloss over the basic foundational concepts you talk about, and keep looking for secrets that result in effects like (for example) Tequila Hustler.

Which is also likely why most magicians have at one time owned a copy of [b]13 Steps[/b], and then (I'd bet) turned around and sold it right after they'd read it.
They were after secrets and instead got the core principals of mentalism, after they got them, they realized they'd never use them, and then chose to unload the book.

The same likely applies to your books, although your books have much more substance in them, so they are just as likely to remain on the Magicians bookshelf after reading the same way a magic book would.
From personal experience, I sold my copy of 13 Steps, but I've had two of your books on my shelf for many years.

And some of that Mentalism theory Magicians seek out is foundational to the art of Mentalism, and that theory can comprise some pretty tasty secrets for Magicians to acquire (see Tequila Hustler again for an example), but unfortunately because that information IS foundational, for a Magician to take it and use it in a magical way becomes part of the dilution of the Mentalism art form.

And Magicians WILL use Mentalism secrets in their magic shows, whether its because the effect is easy to acquire as a complete purchase from an online magic store, or simply because it's a powerful principal that can be repurposed for a Magician.

Personally, I believe that although I definitely dilute a Mentalism secret when I exercise my own take on it as a demonstration of Poker Tells, and have created a detailed story of Daniel Negreanu (as I demonstrate my card work to hardened Poker players, they know he's a multiple World Champion) and his uncanny ability to read other players at the Poker table ...I also believe that even though I dilute a Mentalism secret, I also mask any and all traces of that secret back to Mentalism (because I never imply I'm reading minds or influencing behavior) ... but it's still a core principal of Mentalism that I'm using, and I definitely DO NOT have the skills or demeanor of a Mentalist.

Therefore it's dilution by definition, but dilution nonetheless.

Tony, I couldn't agree more. That was also my point.
It doesn't matter if I (as a Magician even though I never use that word myself, and portray a card hustler instead) answer "yes" to the question, implying that I can do both ... the answer is always "no"! nobody can do both.

Not because they're unable or too unskilled to do both, and not because free people living in the U.S.A. can pretty much do whatever their heart desires ... but simply because [i][b]it's fundamentally impossible for an audience to see you as a Mentalist once you show them a single magic trick.[/b][/i]

To them you're now on P+T's "Fool Us" and you're definitely a Magician.
But because they saw a video, or a live performance of an ACTUAL Mentalist performing essentially the same thing, therein lies the diluting of Mentalism.

IMO the core of the issue is simple:
For Mentalists this is a classic [b]win/lose[/b] situation. There is no upside to their interaction with Magicians, and the damage done to the art and craft of Pure Mentalism is potentially profound.

For Magicians, they are the "win" component of the [b]win/lose[/b] situation. They get new, sometimes powerful material, and the art and craft of Magic is strengthened through repurposing Mentalism principals and repurposing them as magic.

Both communities are relatively small, with Mentalism being much smaller than magic.
Because those communities are small, I can see the temptation to exercise detailed discussions and highlight the joys of Mentalism with folks who come from a different place than Mentalists do ... in this case, Magicians.
Heck, I could posit that it's a bit of an ego boost to actually BE a Pure Mentalist and be able to espouse that fact directly to those who may be most guilty of diluting Mentalism ... again, Magicians.

And so here you are. Communicating on the Magic Café, doing most of it in the very public Penny forum rather than the more remote (and unsearchable) I.S., and what happens is indeed exactly what I note above ... Magicians visit Penny, interact, troll for ideas, hunt for secrets, and otherwise treat Penny like any other forum on the Café (sometimes to the dismay of the Mentalists who essentially invite them in by holding those detailed discussions in front of 63,000 Magicians).

BUT! ... occasionally, [i]occasionally[/i] ... you'll get a Magician who will visit Penny, then stop, proceed slowly, purchase books like Bob's and 13 Steps ... and join you as one of your own.

And therein lies the reason (perhaps) that those Pure Mentalists posting here don't want to disappear in into the almost impossible to access PEA forums, and why they prefer to exercise their communications in a more high profile location (the Magic Café).
Most new Mentalists, those who chose not to be Magicians and who seek the art and craft of Pure Mentalism indeed come from the world of magic.

... But with that high profile comes the downside we speak of in this thread, and there's no fix for it under the present conditions of open and accessible communication, and mass marketing of profoundly foundational Mentalism principals on popular online magic stores.

All the above my own opinion of course, and from a Magicians perspective.
And so the sometimes uncomfortable marriage of magic and mentalism continues moving forward, some might even say it thrives!
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 18, 2016 03:19PM)
Sometimes its kinda funny when if you try to discuss anything a little different or left of centre on here, a certain percentage and mindset almost sneer at you for trying...yet! do anything even vaguely similar to what people are exposed to on tv (from the talent shows, to dynamo, to criss angel, whoever else) and they say "oh, so can you do what so-and-so does then? show me that?") - so there's a strange kind of push-me-pull-you reaction going on...

i found what mindpro said interesting, though I may have read it wrongly - but it read to me that its hinting at meeting (and then exceeding) the audience/client's expectations, rather than presenting yourself as "you" (the way you want to) and then finding your market/audience... could be wrong, I'm ill at the moment, so steroids and medicines might be messing with me (for asthma and a virus I should add)...

and there's the "artist's vision" too, and what that person wants to communicate...

and I think that if you did absolutely ANYTHING like what was successful on the recent AGT/BGT shows, but want to present it as mentalism, then I do think that to a degree, people will join up the dots, even just a little, and draw parallels to what thy remember from the shows...whether that's a good or bad thing is obviously down to the individual...

i also think that magicians should take pride in being one, and explore what they can do and where they can take it, and seek new directions to go with that skillset...because mixing of the two has been done to death already (deliberately and unintentionally) - so move it onwards...find a new way...

i'm surprised that the tv series The Magicians hasn't been mentioned more often, as its like an urban 18R version of Harry Potter...been enjoying the series in a weird way, especially as I hate harry potter...its probably the women in the show to be honest...oh and the two books that mated...

i also think that people are too quick to mention those who are very successful and say "well, look at HIM! He does xyz, and he is loved! So why can't I do it?!" - the simple answer is because you're not him...probably no where near as talented, inspired, hard working, nor with a team behind them and mentors and contacts either...so, start with the foundations and build up a solid spine, understand all those things that go into it first...
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 18, 2016 04:53PM)
Just did a gig, otw to another. Crap, did Sugar Rush for some kids outside. I explained the difference though, and told them I normally do not do magic anymore. Knocked adults out inside with some good wonder worker routines but still.....feeling somewhat guilty now.


Where did Slim go to? :angry:
Message: Posted by: Ed_Millis (Jun 18, 2016 05:05PM)
I got a chance to finish the Cassidy/Osterlind lecture (on Penguin, no less!). I loved the way this topic was discussed and dissected. And in front of a bunch of magicians, most of whom probably knew what was going on, the presentations were solid mentalism. Listening to the discussions made it so abundantly clear that there is so much history and background to mentalism that the average "mentalist" never bothers with - which is probably why they stay average, and Bob and Richard are not!

Ed
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 18, 2016 06:08PM)
[quote]On Jun 17, 2016, Desolate Ruin wrote:
To answer the question and give my two cents: Yes, one can be a magician and a mentalist.
But it needs to be done artfully and carefully, without breaking the premise or flow of performance. [/quote]
Thank you!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Jun 18, 2016 07:48PM)
Slim, Decomposed only invoked your name once. Play by the rules, you know that your not allowed here until it is uttered there times in succession. :cool:
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 18, 2016 08:16PM)
[quote]On Jun 18, 2016, Bill Cushman wrote:
Slim, Decomposed only invoked your name once. Play by the rules, you know that your not allowed here until it is uttered there times in succession. :cool: [/quote]
My bad.... Been too busy to count lately....
Message: Posted by: jonnyboy (Jun 18, 2016 10:12PM)
Mindpro asks why magicians just can't be magicians anymore? I believe there are a number of reasons why magicians want to perform mentalism, or at least be perceived as doing so.
First, mentalism may seem to be much easier to do than coin magic or card magic. Especially with some of the wonderful toys that allow very clean presentations with little or no technical expertise needed. Instant mentalist!
Second, mentalism can play to a much larger crowd than some traditional magic disciplines.
Third, many mentalism effects have the classic "pack small, play big" advantages.
Fourth, it is very hard to make up your own card effects, coin effects, big box illusions, etc. I think it is relatively easier to come up with an original premise for a mentalism effect that uses a standard technique.
Fifth, and this is serious, mentalism is considered sexy right now. That is quite apparent from the large number of magicians trying to incorporate mentalism effects into their acts.
Sixth, magicians don't really care about keeping mentalism pure, unlike many mentalists. They don't care about the labels being attached to what they do. To them, a mental effect is a magical effect, whether the mentalism community considers it to be mental magic or mentalism.
Seventh, mental effects allow a magician to perform something that just seemingly has no explanation whatsoever. As with most good mentalism effects (and maybe all true mentalism effects), there are no props used that even remotely look like a gimmick. With most magician effects, there is suspicion on everything he uses, including cards ("are those trick cards?"), obvious props like boxes, tubes, etc. And for the most part, the spectators are right to suspect, even if they can't figure out exactly how something works. Mentalism effects, by contrast, provide a magician with a potential purity that is very difficult to achieve otherwise.

This is my earnest effort to answer your query, Mindpro. I'm sure others will disagree with many of these, or may have additional reasons they can enumerate.

John
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 19, 2016 12:57AM)
I feel so ashamed doing a magic trick earlier this evening under the cloak of darkness in the far backyard of the private gig. I felt like I was dealing drugs. :loss:

Then the second gig the DJ announced me as a magician. I ran at him making a cut throat gesture and had him correct himself. By the end of the gig I think everyone there that saw me knew the difference but still. Marketing is marketing....I have used about every name out there wonder workers go by but Google just doesn't seem to like the terms as much as the dreaded "magician" title.
Message: Posted by: Desolate Ruin (Jun 19, 2016 03:11AM)
[quote]On Jun 17, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
How about introducing yourself and telling us a bit about your background before answering questions and giving us your pennies. :eek: [/quote]

Ah! Of course, introductions are in order. I am Desolate Ruin, though you may call me Desolate, or if we are to be formal, then Maestro Ruin will do nicely. Or Mr. Ruin.

[quote]On Jun 18, 2016, Ray Pierce wrote:
If only we had read that earlier he could have saved us 5 pages of useless palaver. [/quote]

Unfortunately, a substantial amount of those 5 pages was indeed useless palaver, what with the mudslinging, and back-and-forth about balloons.

[quote]On Jun 18, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Thank you!!!!!! [/quote]

You are very welcome, Slim King!

[quote]On Jun 17, 2016, John C wrote:
Alright then. Problem solved. Thread over.
Thank you Mr Ruin. [/quote]

As John C enacted above (see what I did there?), the problem has been solved. Fortunately, the problem has not been solved (for those who see it as a problem), and the thread should not end with one person's opinion - nor has it in past pages - had it ended there, we may not have read or pondered the thoughts of Artie or IAIN. But I'm not one to turn down gratitude: you are welcome.

Before moving on, it would be essential to define what I mean by "magic". "Magic" by definition, is: "The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces" (Oxford Dictionary). Though it has other definitions, this is the one I will use as a basis for conversing. "Magic tricks" are what is performed, yet Magic is what we desire the audience to feel, provided the performer is presenting it as real magic and not as tricks. A sense of wonder? Or awe? Or stunned silence? Is that not magical? Does "mentalism" not have this effect on the audience? Can mentalism not be magic?

Yes, sponge balls, box and tube, Prof's Nightmare, bunny boxes, these are tricks, and while the audience may not understand how it works, they realize there is something special about the props used. A good metric we may use is by listening to our audience after performance. Do they say: "I wonder how s/he did that.", implying there is a method? Or are they left knowing they have experienced magic?

As an addition to my first post, it would be interesting to mention an alternate question. Can one be a magician and a mentalist? Well, can one be a singer and a pianist? Or a dancer and a gymnast? Why not, Ray Charles is wonderful, and any of the Olympic competitors (particularly in floor routines) have combined disciplines to yield an overall incredible performance. Is the dancer or the gymnast diminshed? The disciplines are complentary to each other, perhaps with one being the main focus, while the other enhances it. Much like how one of us may combine a ring levitation with a name reveal of a deceased loved one, maybe with the focus on the reveal and the levitation becomes symbolic. Symbolic of how love is unbound by time and space, free from forces which bind us to the Earth.

As I said in my first post, carefully and artfully, it can be done.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 19, 2016 06:08AM)
Thank you for the introduction. I don't mean your name. I'm referring to your very distinctive writing style.

Good luck.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 19, 2016 07:30AM)
LOL, I know who you are. Wait , no I don't. Who are you???!
:cups:
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jun 19, 2016 04:53PM)
I would agree that the easy answer is to say that it can't (or more correctly "shouldn't") be done but many admit that it has been managed in the past by Dunninger and Kreskin at the very least. I'm really curious why we think they were able to do both successfully and still retain credibility in each. I maintain that they were simply viewed as "exceptional people" and it was accepted that their ability to leverage their mind for unusual abilities was beyond normal people. I'm curious if they were perceived as having different "powers" than normal people and how that effected them doing traditional magic.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 19, 2016 05:42PM)
I would posit their specific "powers" were that they were already firmly established in a very broad general publics mindset as being Mentalists of legendary reknown.

Once millions of people accept you as a powerful Mentalist, dabbling in magic appears not to dampen your audiences belief in your mental abilities.

Likely not a scenario enjoyed by 99% of those practicing mentalism today.

Perhaps the 1% that may indeed be getting away with it (Derren Brown?), still enjoy the "power" of what is, in effect, worldwide recognition as a Mentalist ... SuperStardom as it were.
Perhaps Thommy and Amelie are heading down that very road as we speak ... but it still seems very uncommon for a Mentalist(s) to achieve such renown.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 19, 2016 07:02PM)
Its been already mentioned but Richard Osterlind, my favorite watchable mentalist does mix in some magic. He can pull it off, does not mean everyone can. I forgot at this moment how he markets but with an agent, who cares? :crazydude:
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 19, 2016 09:57PM)
I wonder if the flip-side might be somebody like Copperfield doing a pure mentalism piece at one of his big shows, and having laymen (probably the entire audience) believe that, on top of his skills in magic, he also possesses some serious chops at influencing or reading minds and/or predicting future actions?

Unequivocally accepting him as both a magician and a mentalist with each one accepted on its own, and neither one diminishing the audiences belief in the skill of the practitioner (Copperfield in this case) of the other.

The commonality seems to be that, when you're a true superstar in one field, people are much more willing to accept that you may have superstar skills in another field?
We see all kinds of Disney TV kid stars who move into large scale music concerts event hough their vocal skills are very limited ... because [i]once a star always a star[/i], or so the public seem willing to accept.

What's far more difficult seems to be on the small scale. It seems terribly logical that a club mentalist who does a [b]Ball Thru Hand[/b] trick mid-show would likely destroy whatever credibility he'd built up as a mentalist, and have most (if not all) of the audience then simply switch to believe completely that they're watching a magician.
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Jun 19, 2016 10:06PM)
When I told my 72 year old neighbor I was going to see Kreskin last October, she replied, "I remember him, he's that magician that reads minds. He's still around?"

She had no idea of my interests outside of my being a psychologist and parent. I am really not sure how to frame this in the context of this discussion but it seems potentially relevant so I thought I'd share it. She remembered him from television many moons ago, not as a mind reader but as a MAGICIAN who reads minds. This may be more common than we want to believe.

It struck me that this didn't trivialize Kreskin in her memories of him. They were positive. But when she sought a category in which to place him, this is how it went. Why didn't she say "I remember him, he's that mind reader."
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 19, 2016 10:08PM)
Good take Artie.

How I wish the Google monster would pick up mentalist (still people don't know that term here), mystery performer, psychic entertainer etc on search requests. But that would only mean people would be placing those keywords in their searches for bookings. Book as a magician, change their minds at the event. :dizzy:
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Jun 19, 2016 10:53PM)
"Book as a magician, change their minds at the event." Decomposed

Mr. Ruin, think about this as it relates to my post. Kreskin is booked as a mind reader but remembered as a magician who reads minds, probably 30 or 40 years since my neighbor saw him on TV (she mentioned Merv Griffin, Dinah Shore and Johnny Carson). What would you choose: changing minds or being remembered decades after your performance?
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 19, 2016 11:50PM)
I want to be remembered Bill. I guess its better being remembered as not working paid gigs. Just kidding. Kreskin had a agent. I saw his movie. I have to self promote...

Question for Slim. Are you booked as a Disney employee or a Blues Brother?

Mr Ruin
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 20, 2016 01:37AM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
I want to be remembered Bill. I guess its better being remembered as not working paid gigs. Just kidding. Kreskin had a agent. I saw his movie. I have to self promote...

Question for Slim. Are you booked as a Disney employee or a Blues Brother?

Mr Ruin [/quote]
Not quite sure what you mean?
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 20, 2016 02:01AM)
How do you get your bookings bro? I mean just as an entertainer?

PS: I thought you use to work Disney circuit but it was a while back.

Mr Ruin :smiles:
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 20, 2016 09:12AM)
I do about 1,000 Blues Brothers shows a year. I work Both Universal and the House of Blues. Since my son was born I've pretty much curtailed gigging overseas or touring the US. As a mentalist I prefer larger gigs such as Daytona's NIGHT OF THER PARANORMAL... It's a better fit for what I do. I've consulted and even sold some effects to major players in the Magic community. But my favorite thing to do is Radio Magic or magic over the phone, internet, FaceTime...stuff like that. So in my experience you can be a Magician, Mentalist, and Singer/Dancer...No problem ;) :dancing: :bigdance: :bigdance:
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 20, 2016 03:01PM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, Slim King wrote:
So in my experience you can be a Magician, Mentalist, and Singer/Dancer...No problem ;) [/quote]

Not aimed at you personally, but it's hard enough becoming truly expert in any [i]one single discipline[/i] ... let alone three or four different disciplines, especially when we're talking about all of them being directly related to entertainment.


It can be difficult (if not utterly impossible) to give three or four separate artistic disciplines the attention each deserves to achieve artistic exellence when trying to accomplish all four at the same time ... and all this with only one life to live! :)
Message: Posted by: Joe Atmore (Jun 20, 2016 03:02PM)
As Dunninger's name is almost certainly brought up by those saying magic and mentalism mix, I thought I would pose a few questions to those that do utilize that argument. (I'll let Kreskin's work sit for a moment.)

Do you know what were the magic effects he performed - how many and what were they and did they differ through the years?

At what point in his show might he have performed magic?

What were the venues he performed the magic at?

During what eras in his career did he perform magic?

No fair cheating by referring to a post I made in Inner Thoughts a few months ago. Let's go by what you think he performed. And Bob is exempt.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 20, 2016 03:05PM)
Did he open with the sponge dingdong and finish with the bra trick? :bigdance:
Message: Posted by: Joe Atmore (Jun 20, 2016 03:18PM)
Why did I bother......
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 20, 2016 03:23PM)
It was a joke, c'mon now...
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 20, 2016 03:56PM)
Good info Joe. Thanks. Slim, wow, not many can master doing routines over the phone. That certainly can sell a client. I had a few things I did but now with time restraints, I just want to get the booking done then show them but I think that is pretty clever. :kewl:
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 20, 2016 06:42PM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
Good info Joe. Thanks. Slim, wow, not many can master doing routines over the phone. That certainly can sell a client. I had a few things I did but now with time restraints, I just want to get the booking done then show them but I think that is pretty clever. :kewl: [/quote]
Thanks ... I'm pretty lazy, but when I use telephone effects with clients it's a 90% they will hire me. I'm just too busy or too lazy to do it all the time. Perhaps if I can retire, I'll be more involved on the media sites doing magic.
Message: Posted by: Desolate Ruin (Jun 21, 2016 03:59AM)
Mr. Cushman, given the choice, I would rather be remembered as one who could command and interact with magickal forces. And with regard to your story, it is interesting that one performer would be remembered as a magician who reads minds... Could the layman, in this case, view the magician as a true magician, or as a magician who does tricks but can also read minds?

What would everyone think about trying a little experiment? Tomorrow (or when you have time), let us go perform a "mentalism" effect for multiple strangers (same effect each time), and afterwards, have a confederate approach the strangers and inquire: "What was he doing? I saw, but couldn't tell what was going on." Following with: "So was he a magician?" Or something of the sort. It would be a covert way of learning how our audience views the performance of a mental effect - is it a magic trick or is it magic, AND do they view us as magicians or mind readers?

[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
I want to be remembered Bill. I guess its better being remembered as not working paid gigs. Just kidding. Kreskin had a agent. I saw his movie. I have to self promote...

Question for Slim. Are you booked as a Disney employee or a Blues Brother?

Mr Ruin [/quote]

Given this and the next post, are you addressing me or signing your messages with "Mr Ruin"?

And for Mr. Cassidy, though I'm certain my writing style is indeed distinctive, I must admit to some confusion - unless someone (unbeknownst to myself) has taken a journal from my shelf and uploaded it somewhere, I don't believe anyone would have seen my writing before, aside from those few close friends with whom I share the pages. However, Mr. Hawthorne most definitely has an influence on my language and structuring, and I can assure you he is not I, though I am well aquainted with the comforts of the fireside. Perhaps you've read his works?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 21, 2016 05:04AM)
Yes, your confusion is as apparent as your identity.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 21, 2016 05:15AM)
[quote]On Jun 21, 2016, Desolate Ruin wrote:
Mr. Cushman, given the choice, I would rather be remembered as one who could command and interact with magickal forces. And with regard to your story, it is interesting that one performer would be remembered as a magician who reads minds... Could the layman, in this case, view the magician as a true magician, or as a magician who does tricks but can also read minds?

What would everyone think about trying a little experiment? Tomorrow (or when you have time), let us go perform a "mentalism" effect for multiple strangers (same effect each time), and afterwards, have a confederate approach the strangers and inquire: "What was he doing? I saw, but couldn't tell what was going on." Following with: "So was he a magician?" Or something of the sort. It would be a covert way of learning how our audience views the performance of a mental effect - is it a magic trick or is it magic, AND do they view us as magicians or mind readers?

[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
I want to be remembered Bill. I guess its better being remembered as not working paid gigs. Just kidding. Kreskin had a agent. I saw his movie. I have to self promote...

Question for Slim. Are you booked as a Disney employee or a Blues Brother?

Mr Ruin [/quote]

Given this and the next post, are you addressing me or signing your messages with "Mr Ruin"?

And for Mr. Cassidy, though I'm certain my writing style is indeed distinctive, I must admit to some confusion - unless someone (unbeknownst to myself) has taken a journal from my shelf and uploaded it somewhere, I don't believe anyone would have seen my writing before, aside from those few close friends with whom I share the pages. However, Mr. Hawthorne most definitely has an influence on my language and structuring, and I can assure you he is not I, though I am well aquainted with the comforts of the fireside. Perhaps you've read his works? [/quote]

Sorry Mr Ruin, I thought someone addressed me as Mr Ruin also. I am not he.....I am Mr Decomposed.... As for your experiment, I would love to see the results of that! :worry:
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 21, 2016 03:43PM)
The suggested experiment is pointless, because ambush performances for strangers on the street is NOT how professional mentalists operate.

When I appear at a public venue, in the weeks before the event, table tents and fliers are widely distributed and, frequently, I will be a guest on a local radio program to promote the show.

The audience that comes to that show arrives with the expectation of seeing a mind reader/mentalist.

If you were to interview those folks afterwards, you'd get completely different answers that you'd get from the "strangers" who were approached by another stranger who just walked up to them and showed them an effect.

It's all about building expectations. And the only expectation that the people on the street experience is the fear that they're going to be asked for money.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 21, 2016 04:05PM)
I can agree with that Bob. I think that is the point many have made over the years. It is after that counts and after a performance, strolling gig etc, the full enchilada. Then ask what they saw, what they witnessed.

Of course you being booked as a mindreader or mentalist is the optimum. :approve:
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 21, 2016 06:37PM)
So Kreskin is booked as a mentalist and remembered as a magician. What can one infer from this?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 21, 2016 06:41PM)
That this is one person's opinion, not that of the mass public that still see him as a mentalist. But also proves that mixing magic and mentalism shouldn't be done, lol
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 21, 2016 06:51PM)
One can infer that he was ALWAYS viewed that way. Back when he was appearing on the network talk shows, hosts frequently made jokes about him as did sitcom writers. The exact opposite was true about Dunninger.

Not to forget that Kreskin, in his shows, goes out of his way to claim he has no special abilities or psychic powers. He spends most of his time name-dropping and telling stories about the old days on The Tonight Show, apparently wanting to establish himself primarily as a television celebrity.

I don't believe he ever established a credible back story, persona, or any sort of consistency in his effects or claims. Even though he appropriated virtually all of Dunninger's original show, he never came near the mind-reader persona that Dunninger perfected.

But the fact is that he is primarily booked as Kreskin.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 21, 2016 11:11PM)
Over the years I've seen people with multiple identities here ... A sure way to catch them is to see if they forget which identity they are using.. Then they make a mistake and sign the wrong name .. It's worked for me catching a lot of trolls that way.

Back to the subject at hand .. IF and it's a big "IF" ... a person has a magic performance as believable as a mentalism routine.. Then and only THEN would I mix the two. BTW .. I rarely do .. But this must be the criteria for that to happen... Make sense?
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 21, 2016 11:16PM)
[quote]On Jun 21, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Over the years I've seen people with multiple identities here ... A sure way to catch them is to see if they forget which identity they are using.. Then they make a mistake and sign the wrong name .. It's worked for me catching a lot of trolls that way.

Back to the subject at hand .. IF and it's a big "IF" ... a person has a magic performance as believable as a mentalism routine.. Then and only THEN would I mix the two. BTW .. I rarely do .. But this must be the criteria for that to happen... Make sense? [/quote]

First part LOL, yeah that is so true.

Second part, I can see that and have seen that. How about someone who performs mentalism for pay, and practices magic as a hobby only?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 22, 2016 12:04AM)
Well...I think that would RUIN everything unless you can do real magic....
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 22, 2016 01:10AM)
The majority of the press I see online talks about Kreskin as a mentalist from New Jersey. Must be the water there.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 22, 2016 01:30AM)
Didn't you say in your previous post that he's remembered as a magician?
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 22, 2016 07:20AM)
[quote]On Jun 18, 2016, jonnyboy wrote:
Mindpro asks why magicians just can't be magicians anymore? I believe there are a number of reasons why magicians want to perform mentalism, or at least be perceived as doing so.
First, mentalism may seem to be much easier to do than coin magic or card magic. Especially with some of the wonderful toys that allow very clean presentations with little or no technical expertise needed. Instant mentalist!
Second, mentalism can play to a much larger crowd than some traditional magic disciplines.
Third, many mentalism effects have the classic "pack small, play big" advantages.
Fourth, it is very hard to make up your own card effects, coin effects, big box illusions, etc. I think it is relatively easier to come up with an original premise for a mentalism effect that uses a standard technique.
Fifth, and this is serious, mentalism is considered sexy right now. That is quite apparent from the large number of magicians trying to incorporate mentalism effects into their acts.
Sixth, magicians don't really care about keeping mentalism pure, unlike many mentalists. They don't care about the labels being attached to what they do. To them, a mental effect is a magical effect, whether the mentalism community considers it to be mental magic or mentalism.
Seventh, mental effects allow a magician to perform something that just seemingly has no explanation whatsoever. As with most good mentalism effects (and maybe all true mentalism effects), there are no props used that even remotely look like a gimmick. With most magician effects, there is suspicion on everything he uses, including cards ("are those trick cards?"), obvious props like boxes, tubes, etc. And for the most part, the spectators are right to suspect, even if they can't figure out exactly how something works. Mentalism effects, by contrast, provide a magician with a potential purity that is very difficult to achieve otherwise.

This is my earnest effort to answer your query, Mindpro. I'm sure others will disagree with many of these, or may have additional reasons they can enumerate.

John [/quote]

WHOA!

First, if you think mentalism is easier than coin or card magic, guess again. It's much more disciplined, and the "toys" you speak about do require technical expertise, and study, and enough practice to make sure your presentation of same is polished, and the spectators envision you as a psychic, or a mind-reader. Instant mentalist? BS. Try doing an hour long show with "toys" and gimmicks and no presentation or polish what-so-ever.

Second, while mentalism can play to a large crowd, twenty years ago I was performing as a magician, with my stage act playing to some large venues...1500 to 2000 people is hardly a smaller crowd.

Third, while, for the most part, yes, the pack small play big, is a benefit, but you'd better know what you're doing with those "smaller" props.

Fourth, while you say it is hard to make up your own card effects, coin effects, and illusions, it is not relatively easier to come up with an original premise for a mentalism effect as so much has been written about the subject in the last 100 years... what's hard is coming up with something totally new. It is extremely difficult because you're usually just re-hashing what has come before.

Fifth, it's nice to know at my age that I'm still sexy. As for the large numbers of magicians trying to incorporate mentalism effects into their acts, they're just that, doing mental magic tricks, not mentalism...if they want to be mentalists, stop doing magic and learn what it is to be a mentalist. I've been studying the field for close to forty years, and after being away from magic for over a decade, I doubt anyone will remember me as a magician...that, and I will be using a stage name when I finish putting the act together, and marketing it.

Sixth, yes, magicians don't care about keeping mentalism pure, and if that goes on long enough, it may ruin it for all of us...it's necessary to keep magic and mentalism separate. And, I don't call what they're doing, mentalism, but rather, mental magic tricks. Go out and try and earn a living as a mentalist...it's much easier to get a magic gig.

Seventh, that's the difference...mentalists don't perform with tubes and tables and boxes...its easier to rely on a prop to amuse your audience, when you're a magician...now amuse them with a paper and a pencil, if you think it's so easy. If you're doing mentalism correctly, they won't wonder about any trick ways of doing things; they'll either believe you're really psychic, or are demonstrating to them the science of the mind, telepathy (the ability to read another person's thoughts), clairvoyance (the ability to "see" events or objects happening somewhere else), precognition (the ability to see the future), mediumship (the ability to channel dead spirits), et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...and with time, practice, and experience, your audience won't even think about what they saw...they'll just accept it...

Regardless, the two (magic and mentalism) are mutually exclusive...so, if you're a magician and so enamored with mentalism, then why not stop doing magic and become a mentalist...isn't that what this is all really about?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2016 09:45AM)
So very nicely and well said.

It seems that is coming out is what mentalists have known all along. Magicians are attempting to do mentalism (really mental magic) without really knowing or understanding what they are doing.....and I guess why they are even doing it.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 22, 2016 01:10PM)
The [i]"why they are even doing it"[/i] question is what (speaking as a magician) I was referencing in my earlier post.

Unlike Mentalists, who practice their craft with a deep appreciation and understanding of WHY they're practicing their craft ... Magicians, especially amateur Magicians LOVE methods, and seek them out like a bee seeks out honey.

On the Magic Café, that "seeking" isn't very hard at all, indeed it's as easy as learning how to work a vent'n'dummy or do card juggling. Just click on the next forum down!

To Magicians, it matters not whether it's a piece of pure mentalism. If the method for that piece of pure Menalism is devious and relatively unknown among other local Magicians, it's a prime candidate for the next restaurant walk-around gig as their next "fooler"!

I once again would point out Tequila Hustler as an example of the kind of secret that Mentalists should NEVER let go of. Something like that should be guarded like the non-existent gold bars in Fort Knox.
It won't be of course, as Jim Steinmeyer has said about magic for years, [i]"we guard an empty vault"[/i] ... as it seems, like Magicians did decades ago - Mentalists have already let the cat out of the bag, and the ability to stop Magicians from usurping mentalisms crown jewels simply doesn't exist any longer.

My suggestion, as much as it hides away things I enjoy reading about ... [b]take it [i]deep underground[/i] my Mentalist friends![/b]
Message: Posted by: jonnyboy (Jun 22, 2016 02:29PM)
M. Tessler-
WHOA! I think you misperceived my post completely. Since no one else responded to Mindpro's question, I was trying to postulate an answer as to why magicians want to do mentalism effects. You appeared to have made incorrect assumptions as to my position, and misread what I said. For example, I didn't say that mentalism IS easier. I said that mentalism can SEEM easier than coin tricks and card magic. And using electronics can make it seem even easier. This makes magicians want to do mentalism. "Instant mentalist" was a deliberately sarcastic phrase that was apparently lost on you. I was describing what I perceived to be the lure of mentalism to magicians.

As to my second point about playing to larger venues, you again misread my statement. I said that mentalism can play to a much larger crowd than SOME magic disciplines. This was not an absolute statement, and I wasn't attacking you and saying you never drew big crowds (or magicians). Just pointing out that mentalism can play to larger crowds than close up magic, like coins. Again, I was describing what I perceived to be the lure of mentalism to magicians.

As to my third point, yes, mentalism can pack small and play big. That's why I said it, as a perceived benefit of being a mentalist over a magician. And of course you need to know what you are doing with them. I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

Fourth, I disagree with you on the mentalism premise. I think it is relatively easier to come up with a theme, or premise, for an effect than to make up a whole, brand new coin trick or card trick. I think it is easier to come up with a new story than it is to invent a sleight. That may be because the number of card effects and books and DVDs clearly outnumber the number of mentalism materials. Again, though, whether we agree or disagree on this point, my post was about the PERCEPTION of a magician, and why he may want to do mentalism based effects now.

Fifth, you appear to conflate my statement about mentalism being sexy with mentalists being sexy. I made no such comparison or postulation of whether a mentalist or a magician was sexy. Just that the art form of mentalism was sexy at the moment. This is why everyone wants to do mentalism now, and why magicians are flocking to it. Again, I was answering Mindpro's question as to why magicians want to do mentalism. Not defending magicians or belittling mentalism.

Sixth, again, I was writing from what I perceived the magician's POV to be, that THEY don't care about keeping mentalism pure, or the labels that mentalists put on their effects. This is a subject of some controversy here, and I deliberately did not take a stance on it.

Seventh, you agreed with me and just simply restated my point. You write in a very challenging manner, that I should try to amuse someone with a paper and pencil if I think it is so easy. Guess what? I'm a mentalist, not a magician. You misread my entire post and misunderstood completely that I had taken the time to postulate and speculate why magicians are trying to do mentalism effects. If you can't understand that, and read the language of posts more critically and carefully, there is nothing I can do about it.
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 22, 2016 03:03PM)
Well, if I misunderstood , very sorry, but you should have made your approach clearer...I don't think I was the only one who misunderstood...and I didn't think you were attacking me or anyone else about the size of venues...it was hard to tell from the way you wrote that it was meant to be sarcastic or facetious in tone...and oh, the "I'm sexy" thing was a joke, although the thought that I might still be sexy at 70 years old (my brain says I'm 30, but my body is saying guess again!) would thrill my fiancee to no end...as for the rest of it, I'll still maintain it's easier to come up with a new card or coin trick, or new card or coin sleight, than a totally new metalism concept...there has been so much written about mentalism since the end of the the 19th century, that anything totally new would be difficult...I have several shelves devoted to nothing but the subject of mentalism...yes, there's ways to repackage older material, but totally new? I dunno...
Message: Posted by: jonnyboy (Jun 22, 2016 03:41PM)
No worries, M. Tessler. Regarding what I'm saying about premise is not about coming up with something totally new in effect, but the premise or the theme of an effect. You can dress up a mentalism effect in myriad ways, simply by changing the premise. One can take the same effect and go spooky, or demonstrate telepathy, or superb memory. One can tell a heart tugging story to accompany an effect, evoking a past memory. To me, this is where much of the artistry in mentalism resides. Not in the quality of b*llet switches, or n**l wr*t*ng. Those skills should be a sine qua non of a competent mentalist.

And it seems I'm not being totally clear even now; I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or facetious (except for the Instant Mentalist crack) in tone. I was making a sincere effort to speculate why magicians are now drawn to mentalism. Frankly, I don't remember seeing anyone else attempt to articulate reasons why magicians are entering the mentalism (or at least saying they are) in larger numbers than before, and thereby increasing the risk of trivialization of mentalism.
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 22, 2016 04:10PM)
Hmmm...not into b*ll*t switches and n**l wr*t*ng? What kind of mentalist are you? Those methods are the basis of everything...

[b]J/K[/b]...I'm not overly fond of those either, although I think we're sorta stuck with the b*ll*t thing...I think there's other and perhaps better ways of accomplishing the same results...as for the n**l wr*t*ing I can hardly read my own writing as it is, let alone using that method...the only thing you'd read from me there, is chicken scratches...
Message: Posted by: jonnyboy (Jun 22, 2016 04:49PM)
Sorry, I guess I'm being unclear. I have nothing against b*llet sw*tches or n**l wr*ters, and in fact use the first technique liberally. What I was trying to say is that the technical aspects are the fundamentals and basis for good mentalism, and that a good mentalist has those techniques down cold. That the quality of such techniques should be beyond reproach or detection. Then, for me, the artistry of mentalism lies primarily in the interaction with the audience and weaving of the spell, to incorporate those techniques so seamlessly and invisibly that they are never seen or suspected, and the premise of the effect is what leaves the impression on the spectator.

By contrast, I find most card plots rather uninteresting, but very much enjoy great card magic, when performed with technical brilliance. For card magic (and coin magic), the artistry lies in the physical technique (in my opinion), and not in the premise of the effect. Watching Tamariz, or Delgaudio, or Turner, or any of a number of great card men do their stuff, can be sublime. (That being said, I also love Tamariz's card plots and presentations. He is a major exception to the rule.)

I have a story regarding difficult to read n**l wr*t*ng. I was in Vegas a few years ago and was fortunate to see Kreskin perform in a good setting. At one point, he came up to me with his pad folio, and asked me to read the number he had previously predicted (actually, had just n.w.), and although I wanted to help him in the worst way, I couldn't read what he wrote. I wasn't sure that it was a 12 or 13. And I wasn't sure which number he wanted. So I did my best, and was wrong ("off by one"). Pro that he was, Kreskin simply corrected me, and said, "It says 12", and moved on. He was moving fast, so it wasn't like it was a huge reveal or anything, just one of many reveals. I felt terribly about it.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 22, 2016 06:17PM)
If your nw technique is lousy, you can just show them what you wrote, saying, "And look at what number I wrote- twelve!"

Or, better yet, put in the many months of practice required to use a nw properly.

Sleight of hand in skilled mentalism (as opposed to self-working store-bought mental magic) requires the same proficiency level and nerve required of a professional high-stakes card cheat working solo. For the cheat, accidental exposure can result in serious injury. In pure mentalism it will result in a complete loss of credibility and, if the performer is working "strong," derisive laughter and name-calling as well.

But when a magician drops his thumb-tip or accidentally exposes something, he can usually just blow it off with a funny one-liner. After all, the audience already KNOWS that he's just doing tricks.

While some magicians certainly use a far greater number of sleights, the mentalist's moves must be flawless and so natural in performance that they are virtually invisible and unsuspected.

So when someone tells me that classical mentalism is easier than magic, I know they're in for an embarrassing lesson should they attempt billet work or other skill-based techniques before a paying audience.

And, frankly, I think that fear of exposure, and guilt about claiming or implying telepathy or paranormal abilities, are just two of the reasons that many feel a lot safer doing mental magic as opposed to claim-based mentalism.

As I said during a PEA interview over thirty years ago, the three most significant attributes of the "Complete Mentalist" are showmanship, technical mastery and nerve.

And I'm sorry to see that so many newcomers don't seem to understand that.
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 22, 2016 11:03PM)
[quote]On Jun 22, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Didn't you say in your previous post that he's remembered as a magician? [/quote]

He advertises as a mentalist and the public still remembers him as a magician. Apparently to some it's the same thing despite what fancy labels we put on it. You can call it whatever you want but most people realize that mentalism still involves secret moves/psychology which is really just a sub genre of magic. People have asked what are magicians afraid of? Perhaps the question is what are "mentalists" so afraid of?

Jeff
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 23, 2016 01:03AM)
To "some," of course it is. And in the upper Midwest there are people who refer to all kinds of soda as "Coke." If you go into a diner and ask for a Coke, the waitress will probably ask, "What kind? Rootbeer, Pepsi or Sprite?")

But here's something I wrote a long time ago, in somewhat different form, that might be helpful in understanding if one is perceived as a magician or mentalist, whether or not people could cogently explain the difference:

[quote]HOW TO TELL IF YOU ARE DOING MENTAL MAGIC OR MENTALISM:

What do people ask you after a performance? Do they ask things like:

“How is that done?:

“Can you show me another trick?”

“My five-year-old has a birthday coming up, what do you charge?”

If most people ask you questions like these, you are doing mental magic, which is best described as “effects with a
mind reading theme, which are, nonetheless, perceived to be magic tricks.” They do not create the illusion of the “real thing.”

If, on the other hand, you have succeeded in creating the illusion of mentalism, you will receive more questions like these:

“Did you learn that somewhere, or is it something you were born with?”

“How did you know that?” (as opposed to “How did you DO that?”)

“Do you give private readings?”
[/quote]

And what, by the way, are you suggesting mentalists are afraid of? And if you actually perform claim-based mentalism and think that MOST people in your audience believe you're just using secret moves and psychology, you're doing something wrong. When you're doing it right, a lot of them will actually argue with each other, after the show, over whether or not you're "real."
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 23, 2016 05:04AM)
[quote]On Jun 22, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:

As I said during a PEA interview over thirty years ago, the three most significant attributes of the "Complete Mentalist" are showmanship, technical mastery and nerve.

And I'm sorry to see that so many newcomers don't seem to understand that. [/quote]

Ah...I totally agree with the above...there's some magicians that can learn from that too...the nw thing is mostly because my hands shake a bit and writing of any kind is becoming more difficult...I have PPS, which mimics the symptoms of ALS and MS, but at least it's not fatal...real pain in the *** though...I can write fairly well, but using a nw is a no-go for me...most other things necessary for a mentalist are no problem...
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 23, 2016 04:56PM)
According to social media, Richard Osterlind just won PEA coveted award for mentalist of the year. I know Richard does some magic, heck I even have some of it.... Plus he is one of my favorite to watch. Just so dang down to earth with a great sense of humor. I think clients warm up to most with this persona.
Message: Posted by: Lou Is (Jun 23, 2016 05:41PM)
"What's your favorite color?"
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 23, 2016 06:10PM)
The PEA does not give a Mentalist of the Year award. The highest is the Dunninger Award for Excellence and Professionalism in the performance of mentalism, which was awarded this year to Max Maven.

Richard Osterlind received the Dan Blackwood Memorial Award for Outstanding Contribution to the Art of Mentalism.

Your post creates the false impression that the PEA supports the contention that magic and mentalism can be mixed. Virtually every PEA member holds a similar position to my own.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 23, 2016 06:20PM)
[quote]On Jun 23, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
The PEA does not give a Mentalist of the Year award. The highest is the Dunninger Award for Excellence and Professionalism in the performance of mentalism, which was awarded this year to Max Maven.

Richard Osterlind received the Dan Blackwood Memorial Award for Outstanding Contribution to the Art of Mentalism.

Your post creates the false impression that the PEA supports the contention that magic and mentalism can be mixed. Virtually every PEA member holds a similar position to my own. [/quote]

I stand corrected, my bad Bob.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 23, 2016 06:21PM)
[quote]On Jun 23, 2016, Lou Is wrote:
"What's your favorite color?" [/quote]

Wow....how did you know that? Is that mental magic, mentalism or plain ol magic? :rainbow:
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 23, 2016 10:57PM)
Bob, I sent you an email....
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Jun 24, 2016 10:51AM)
[quote]On Jun 23, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
To "some," of course it is. And in the upper Midwest there are people who refer to all kinds of soda as "Coke." If you go into a diner and ask for a Coke, the waitress will probably ask, "What kind? Rootbeer, Pepsi or Sprite?")
[/quote]

In Atlanta, GA, they give you Coca-Cola no matter what kind of soda you actually order. ;-)
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 24, 2016 11:11AM)
Over here, soda is just fizzy water, though we also say tonic water and indian tonic water..

If you ask for a soda over here, they will usually clarify "soda water?"
Message: Posted by: M. Tesla (Jun 24, 2016 12:06PM)
I'm originally from Ohio...in the upper midwest they call soda, "pop"...dunno where a waitress would ask you if you wanted pepsi or rootbeer when you ordered coke...Atlanta is Coke's home base...

[b]Dr John S Pemberton invented Coca‑Cola on 8th May 1886 in Atlanta, Georgia. He tried it out on customers at his local chemist, Jacobs' Pharmacy, where it proved so popular it immediately went on sale at five cents a glass.[/b]

The reason it was sooooo popular is that until the early 20th century it contained cocaine until the feds made it a controlled drug around 1902 or so...
Message: Posted by: THB (Jun 24, 2016 12:45PM)
You can be anything you want. It's entirely YOIR choice.

Now if you crave peer recognition, that's another problem.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 24, 2016 01:41PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2016, THB wrote:
You can be anything you want. It's entirely YOIR choice.

Now if you crave peer recognition, that's another problem. [/quote]

DOH! Of course you CAN. No one ever said otherwise.

The question is whether you should.

And the answer has nothing to do with peer recognition
Message: Posted by: THB (Jun 24, 2016 02:33PM)
Yes, I understood the question right.

but wether you should or not is also YOUR choice and not the one of " your peers".

i mean its always the same old question, the same old debate, the same old answers...

define YOUR goal and based on that establish YOUR strategy, and if your peers don't agree with your strategy, so be it. maybe one day, you'll realize they were right, maybe not.... process.YOUR process...

Isn't it?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 24, 2016 02:39PM)
I kinda get your drift, but at the same time - you can't train as a butcher, open a butcher's shop and then say you're a carpenter...
Message: Posted by: THB (Jun 24, 2016 02:47PM)
Its hard to reply to that as I don't think its an accurate analogy :)

Each person has to establish his own learning strategies, and if your ask advice to mentors who are dogmatic...ish in their views, and you listen tp them, you rob yourself of the potential for discovering by yourself why they were right.... or wrong...

So basically, can you?? yes of course..

Should you? Find out...

Methink
:)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 24, 2016 03:43PM)
Sure, everyone should learn the hard way.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 24, 2016 07:20PM)
A mentalism effect treated as a magic trick is about the worse thing that could happened to the creative time and effort the inventor put in. :comply:
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 25, 2016 02:30AM)
So they should stop selling to magicians. Perhaps if mentalists cherished their secrets as much as they say they do then they should stop selling their wares on Amazon. This adds more to the trivialization of mentalism than any magician doing mental magic. Apparently the magic trick of the year is a mentalism tool. Seems a bit unusual doesn't it?

As for learning things the "hard way" that sounds prescriptive and assumes every student can and should learn the same way. They don't.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 25, 2016 03:29AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:
So they should stop selling to magicians. Perhaps if mentalists cherished their secrets as much as they say they do then they should stop selling their wares on Amazon. This adds more to the trivialization of mentalism than any magician doing mental magic. Apparently the magic trick of the year is a mentalism tool. Seems a bit unusual doesn't it?

As for learning things the "hard way" that sounds prescriptive and assumes every student can and should learn the same way. They don't.

Jeff [/quote]

Interesting Jeff. I see where you are coming from. But that is all about money; the root of all evil. I remember back when even most magicians did not know what mentalism was. Heck, that is like the public. Unless one is a psychic and make that claim, a lot of folks just lump it all into the magic arts. Call it a mindreading show to the public and some may even be steered away. Call it Mindreading and Magic and you may have more customers....Not saying this for the top in the field but the middle of the pack paid performer. I remember going to Vegas to see a mentalist and the sign right out front stated Mindreading and Magic Show. I went in and saw a mentalism performance, not one magic trick.
:crazydude:
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 25, 2016 03:49AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


...As for learning things the "hard way" that sounds prescriptive and assumes every student can and should learn the same way. They don't.

Jeff [/quote]

OBVIOUSLY people learn in different ways. My, "Sure, everyone should learn the hard way," comment was a sarcastic reply to the post preceding it, which suggested that you should not listen to the advice of "mentors." It seems that you missed that. (The "sure" should have tipped you off.)
Message: Posted by: THB (Jun 25, 2016 06:28AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
which suggested that you should not listen to the advice of "mentors." [/quote]

??? did I say that???

strange shortcut.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 25, 2016 07:29AM)
[quote]if your ask advice to mentors who are dogmatic...ish in their views, and you listen to them, you rob yourself of the potential for discovering by yourself why they were right.... or wrong...[/quote]

So more accurately, you said that people shouldn't listen to the advice of mentors they deem to be dogmatic. So I have to ask, why did they select them as mentors to begin with?

The problem might be that we have different definitions of "mentor." Here's the way I understand the word:

[quote]MENTOR

noun: mentor; plural noun: mentors

1.
an experienced and trusted adviser.
"he was her friend and mentor until his death in 1915"
synonyms: adviser, guide, guru, counselor, consultant; confidant(e)
"his political mentors"[/quote]
Message: Posted by: THB (Jun 25, 2016 10:08AM)
Ok, let me be precise, then I'll stop as I fear this is becoming a debate on word accuracy rather than a debate of ideas.

A beginner asks advice to experimented "mentalists" on a forum. They cannot really be mentors, as this is all done electronically on a forum, there is no personal relationship, so no MENTORING.

the experimented adviser tells the beginner,

1/ make the effect your own, as "COPYING" is a bad thing. ( I couldn't find a quote but its all over the forum)
At the same time he's also told

2/ don't DO MENTAL MAGIC. as
[quote]On Jun 24, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
A mentalism effect treated as a magic trick is about the worse thing that could happened to the creative time and effort the inventor put in. :comply: [/quote]

The beginner being a beginner finds it very difficult to concile those two concepts.

he's basically just been told: " Beginner, don't be a beginner. instead, be experimented like me right now, what you're doing is crap as its only mental magic, mentalism is a much higher form of art than what you are doing"

So my advice is:

1/ ask advice
2/ ask more
3/ digest
4/ throw it all away
5/ make your own stuff
6/ and if it displeases the experiments people, ............ Behhhhh who cares.....

:)

My feeling..

:)
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 25, 2016 10:11AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


...As for learning things the "hard way" that sounds prescriptive and assumes every student can and should learn the same way. They don't.

Jeff [/quote]

OBVIOUSLY people learn in different ways. My, "Sure, everyone should learn the hard way," comment was a sarcastic reply to the post preceding it, which suggested that you should not listen to the advice of "mentors." It seems that you missed that. (The "sure" should have tipped you off.) [/quote]

NEVER argue with a lawyer. They're always right even when they're not. But I''m sure that a Master Mindreader would know that. There's also a difference between being mentored and being a disciple. The former still thinks for themselves.
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Jun 25, 2016 10:18AM)
The >>>>>>>>> signifies two items are paired or parallel on a chart of believability.

Real, closed-eye psychic>>>>>>>>>>>>Real, practicing Occultist
Psychic charlatan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Occultist charlatan
Psychic entertainer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Magick entertainer?
Mentalist with disclaimer>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre magician with disclaimer
Mind-reading magician>>>>>>>>>>>>Realistic magician (Blaine-style)
Mental-magic-trickster>>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre-themed-magic trickster
Magician>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Magician

Also note: The times, they are a'changing. In the 19th/early 20th century, magic shows and science shows and spiritualist shows had the same mysterious tone, and a much larger percent of the audience--including Sir Arthur Conan Doyle--found even magic shows more believable. Part of the "Magic Light" movement of Don Alan funsters probably comes from changing audience expectations.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 25, 2016 11:25AM)
Actually, the term "psychic entertainer" is simply an umbrella term that covers mentalists, bizarrists, hypnotists, readers, and allied artists.

The word "psychic, in this instance, is used to denote "of the mind."
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 25, 2016 12:17PM)
THB-

I'd simply add a 3(a) to your list:

"If it sounds reasonable, put it to the test under performance conditions. THEN decide whether to discard it or to experiment with alternatives."

One doesn't learn mentalism simply by thinking about it.


Magical Educator- It's clear, based on his last post, that THB did not intend to use the word "mentor" in its usual sense, but was simply referring to those who give opinions in Internet forums when someone asks for advice. OF COURSE that kind of advice must be evaluated as all opinions are not created equal.

And note that I'm immune to cheap shots and wise-cracks about lawyers. Lawyers simply advocate on behalf of their clients. Judges, juries and appellate courts decide who is right or wrong.
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 25, 2016 12:52PM)
Bob,

What makes one comment sarcasm and another a cheap shot? It appears to be simply who says it. Lawyers don't often admit their argument is wrong. A previous comment advise that all PEA members believe in the separation to magic and mentalism and yet I've had experience seeng 3 different members do just that. Perhaps that's the official policy but my own experience has been very different. A gambling demonstration followed by mentalism...hmm?

All of this wordplay is subjective. One of your books is called Artful Mentalism. If mentalism is indeed an art then that would leave one's involvement very open to interpretation. In another post it's mentioned that if a magician makes a mistake a joke will cover it but that if a mentalist makes a mistake then it's catastrophic. I would argue that it might only enhance things if a miss were to occur. A previous post also suggests that magic sleights are easier than the sleights used by mentalists. To suggest this sounds rather elitist. I was doing some pre show billet work and when I checked with another cast member (my 15 year old daughter) she'd already stolen all of the billets needed for the show. And so it doesn't appear as cut and dried as is often presented here in Penny.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 25, 2016 02:15PM)
POINT by point:

You obviously aren't a lawyer and don't know too many of them. I practiced trial law for a decade and count hundreds of attorneys as log time personal friends. That's why I ignore stereotypes.

My actual statement- "Virtually every PEA member holds a similar position to my own."

A gambling demonstration is not perceived as magic tricks and leads naturally into the area of "tells," intuition, etc.

"Artful" and "art" are not synonyms. Many readers DID miss the irony, however:

[quote]
ARTFUL
adjective
adjective: artful

1.
(of a person or action) clever or skillful, typically in a crafty or cunning way.
"her artful wiles"
synonyms: sly, crafty, cunning, wily, scheming, devious, Machiavellian, sneaky, tricky, conniving, designing, calculating; canny, shrewd;
deceitful, duplicitous, disingenuous, underhanded; informal- foxy, shifty;
archaicsubtle
"artful politicians"
antonyms: ingenuous
2.
showing creative skill or taste.
"an artful photograph of a striking woman"
synonyms: skillful, clever, adept, adroit, skilled, expert
"artful precision"[/quote]

The "mistakes" that I called disastrous to a mentalist referred directly to exposing a gimmick, device, or sleight, NOT simply getting a thought incorrectly, which can indeed add credibility. My exact words were:

[quote]Sleight of hand in skilled mentalism (as opposed to self-working store-bought mental magic) requires the same proficiency level and nerve required of a professional high-stakes card cheat working solo. For the cheat, accidental exposure can result in serious injury. In pure mentalism it will result in a complete loss of credibility and, if the performer is working "strong," derisive laughter and name-calling as well.

But when a magician drops his thumb-tip or accidentally exposes something, he can usually just blow it off with a funny one-liner. After all, the audience already KNOWS that he's just doing tricks.[/quote]

I NEVER said the magic sleights were easier, just that the consequences of accidental exposure are far more dire,hence the need for flawless execution. And swiping billets pre-show, when no one is really paying attention to the assistant, isn't exactly sleight of hand. Refer back to the definition of "artful."
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 25, 2016 02:34PM)
Bob - I dunno why you bother...

a wise man once said "i only read minds, I don't improve them.."

i wonder who that wise man was?! :)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 25, 2016 02:51PM)
C'est Moi!

I don't know why I bother either, because I really don't care if someone agrees with me are not. I just try to help newcomers understand the fundamental differences between magic and mentalism.
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 25, 2016 03:03PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, IAIN wrote:
Bob - I dunno why you bother...

a wise man once said "i only read minds, I don't improve them.."

i wonder who that wise man was?! :) [/quote]

One would presume that she "bothers" because he cares about his art. One would presume that he bothers because he wants to share his experience. Why does one bother to make such a response? I mean really why bother? While I don't necessarily agree with Bob on some of these points I do feel like I want to bother because unlike some I do have my own opinion and thoughts which grow and evolve over time. The gambling demo wasn't about tells it was all about card manipulation and done to silently to music. it was yet another example if a person doing magic and mentalism together in a show. Perhaps one has to be. PEA member to successfully do this. On another point the billet switch was skilfully accomplished. The original comment was about billet switching and these were single billets that were switched and then immediately given back to the participants to put in a box at the front of the stage. My comment about lawyers was obviously a joke and my apologies if that was missed. The tone of the comments in the forum is often like this when one doesn't share the mentalism isn't magic. Every argument has an equally valid counter argument and it does because magic, mentalism or whatever one chooses to call it is a performance art. There simply is no way to get around this fundamental point. As such the art is open to individual interpretation and practice that none of us will likely agree on.

Jeff

Ps. The quote given suggests a dated audience put down that some would argue isn't that funny but rather audience abuse. Surely magic and mentalism has moved passed this type of crass low grade comedy.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 25, 2016 03:24PM)
You would have thought grown men would attempt to live up to that title, rather than try and provoke and troll on a saturday night...but there you go!
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jun 25, 2016 03:40PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, IAIN wrote:
You would have thought grown men would attempt to live up to that title, rather than try and provoke and troll on a saturday night...but there you go! [/quote]
You call anyone who disagrees with you a troll ... How cute!
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 25, 2016 03:42PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, Alan Wheeler wrote:
The >>>>>>>>> signifies two items are paired or parallel on a chart of believability.

Real, closed-eye psychic>>>>>>>>>>>>Real, practicing Occultist
Psychic charlatan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Occultist charlatan
Psychic entertainer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Magick entertainer?
Mentalist with disclaimer>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre magician with disclaimer
Mind-reading magician>>>>>>>>>>>>Realistic magician (Blaine-style)
Mental-magic-trickster>>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre-themed-magic trickster
Magician>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Magician

Also note: The times, they are a'changing. In the 19th/early 20th century, magic shows and science shows and spiritualist shows had the same mysterious tone, and a much larger percent of the audience--including Sir Arthur Conan Doyle--found even magic shows more believable. Part of the "Magic Light" movement of Don Alan funsters probably comes from changing audience expectations. [/quote]

That is a good list but you left out Paranormalist. Regarding the mentoring, I have friends who are magicians, not beginners. Okay they ask me questions etc about new products etc. So I do help them, not how to perform mentalism with whatever it is but about the product, or the basic routine. Then they tell me they tried it and its not for them, or it did not work well etc... I know in my heart of hearts they presented it as a mere trick. Call in mentalism, call it basic theatre, acting or whatever, I still meant what I said, you can kill something that is created by a mentalist by going out and watch this...turning it into a magic trick. I see mental magic as what the product is about not how the performer uses it. A prop comes out for a prediction effect and it includes a little magicky box and three preprinted cards. Mental magic. A trickster takes this after doing cups and balls and uses it, he is doing magic. Will someone afterwards ask him how he got his gift? Doubtful. Its what the spectators see, not what we discuss on the Café.

Perhaps taking a brand new beginner (empty cup) and training them in the art of mentalism and theatre has its merits and can be successful. Taking a person who has been performing magic for said amount of time and teaching mentalism? Difficult and lackluster results at best. Sure there are exceptions but once magic is ingrained, I see it very difficult to change one into a mentalist.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 25, 2016 04:04PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


The quote given suggests a dated audience put down that some would argue isn't that funny but rather audience abuse. Surely magic and mentalism has moved passed this type of crass low grade comedy. [/quote]

Actually, the line isn't old at all. It's original with me and I still use it when I get a heckler in a rough audience (or when a pretentious prig starts to get annoying).

As with my writings and advice, if you don't like my act, don't watch it.

I really couldn't care less.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 25, 2016 04:48PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
C'est Moi!

I don't know why I bother either, because I really don't care if someone agrees with me are not. I just try to help newcomers understand the fundamental differences between magic and mentalism. [/quote]

The bigger point many are asking is why Magical Educator bothers? It seems only to promote his intentionally opposing views and deliberately ruffle the feathers of Bob and the mentalism community. I applaud your patience, but most were lost long ago.

It's intentional challenging. After all that's been explained and detailed, for one to truly not see it is intentional or disregard. Also for anyone who actually performs mentalism, much of what you have been explaining quickly becomes easily recognized, apparent and understood....unless they're performing magic!
Message: Posted by: MagicalEducator (Jun 25, 2016 05:49PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, Slim King wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, IAIN wrote:
You would have thought grown men would attempt to live up to that title, rather than try and provoke and troll on a saturday night...but there you go! [/quote]
You call anyone who disagrees with you a troll ... How cute! [/quote]

It's apparently much easier than even considering an alternate position. Anyone who disagrees or dares question anything of the PEA mandated dogma is a troll. If one has a different experience then one is simply wrong and not a real mentalist. I do love Mindpro's parting comment that certainly sounds like a catcalling insult..."magician!" Do I have something better to do...good question for each of us to ask. I'm just quite interested in the topic. Silly me. I wonder why some people can com here and think and say what they like with impunity. Others get harassed, called out and insulted. It all seems very posturing and preening when grown men can't handle an alternate viewpoint. It's simply too much to consider. There are many inconsistencies in the mentalism not magic which is trivial argument. Unfortunately the Penny gang can't step outside their comfort zone even for a moment. Magic and mentalism are the same. That's why we're all at the Magic Café. That's why we mentalism is sold freely to magicians in magic shops. That's why even the trick of the year went to a PEA member who claims to be a mentalist. It's all very inconvenient but those pesky facts often are. If only we were all mentalists and we could agree with everything they say or do. Why is everyone so vanilla and feel the need to kowtow with the party line? What will happen if we consider, even for a moment, that maybe the Emporer isn't wearing any clothes? When did we stop thinking and asking question instead of just accepting the status quo? Probably easier to just shoot the messenger and ask what's up with that guy?

Jeff
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 25, 2016 05:56PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, Slim King wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, IAIN wrote:
You would have thought grown men would attempt to live up to that title, rather than try and provoke and troll on a saturday night...but there you go! [/quote]
You call anyone who disagrees with you a troll ... How cute! [/quote]

no, I call you a troll - because you are... :dancing:
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 25, 2016 06:02PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:
It's apparently much easier than even considering an alternate position. Anyone who disagrees or dares question anything of the PEA mandated dogma is a troll. If one has a different experience then one is simply wrong and not a real mentalist.[/quote]

i disagree, you can do all of the above - but you can do it in a level headed, straight forward tone of voice...rather than a provocative one... and as this topic is about whether you can mix magic with mentalism, the answer tends to be NO. We can list all the very experienced and famous performers who do mix them, but then we also have to accept that we are not them...probably not as good or as driven or as talented either... and of course you don't have to agree with what I or anyone else thinks...

after a while though, no one is going to change their mind, you can read/see that a mile off - so why bother continuing on and on, back and forth arguing over something where there's no outcome other than both 'sides' see things differently? again, you're free to do that...but it takes two or more to do so in my opinion...that's why I said to bob "i don't know why you bother" - and then the very next post was phrased in a provocative manner that didn't really drive the conversation forward (do I have to keep saying IMO? isn't that the whole point of a forum, its always IMO?)

so yeah, ignore me, my posts, whatever - its ok...but I am allowed to chip in if I want to...same as you and anyone else here...


:dancing: :dancing:
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 25, 2016 06:09PM)
Jeff-

No. Magic and mentalism are decidedly NOT the same. They also have a hypnosis forum here at the Café. By your "logic," then, magic and hypnotism are also the same.

But forget about it. I'm done arguing with anonymous Internet "experts."
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Jun 25, 2016 08:17PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, Alan Wheeler wrote:
The >>>>>>>>> signifies two items are paired or parallel on a chart of believability.

Real, closed-eye psychic>>>>>>>>>>>>Real, practicing Occultist
Psychic charlatan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Occultist charlatan
Psychic entertainer>>>[edit]PERHAPS PARANORMALIST OR SPIRIT THEATER GOES HERE
Mentalist with disclaimer>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre magician with disclaimer
Mind-reading magician>>>>>>>>>>>>Realistic magician (Blaine-style)
Mental-magic-trickster>>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre-themed-magic trickster
Magician>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Magician
--[edit]PERHAPS PLAY OR MOVIE MAGIC GOES HERE---

Also note: The times, they are a'changing. In the 19th/early 20th century, magic shows and science shows and spiritualist shows had the same mysterious tone, and a much larger percent of the audience--including Sir Arthur Conan Doyle--found even magic shows more believable. Part of the "Magic Light" movement of Don Alan funsters probably comes from changing audience expectations. [/quote]

That is a good list but you left out Paranormalist. Regarding the mentoring, I have friends who are magicians, not beginners. Okay they ask me questions etc about new products etc. So I do help them, not how to perform mentalism with whatever it is but about the product, or the basic routine. Then they tell me they tried it and its not for them, or it did not work well etc... I know in my heart of hearts they presented it as a mere trick. Call in mentalism, call it basic theatre, acting or whatever, I still meant what I said, you can kill something that is created by a mentalist by going out and watch this...turning it into a magic trick. I see mental magic as what the product is about not how the performer uses it. A prop comes out for a prediction effect and it includes a little magicky box and three preprinted cards. Mental magic. A trickster takes this after doing cups and balls and uses it, he is doing magic. Will someone afterwards ask him how he got his gift? Doubtful. Its what the spectators see, not what we discuss on the Café.

Perhaps taking a brand new beginner (empty cup) and training them in the art of mentalism and theatre has its merits and can be successful. Taking a person who has been performing magic for said amount of time and teaching mentalism? Difficult and lackluster results at best. Sure there are exceptions but once magic is ingrained, I see it very difficult to change one into a mentalist. [/quote]

On my chart (just food for thought which needs revision), wouldn't Paranormalist or Spirit Theater be paired with Psychic Entertainer, on a higher believability level than acts with a disclaimer? Also, I think an even lower level on the list would be play or movie actors acting the roles of magicians, because at least magicians--even the ones cultivating the unbelievable tone of the funny trickster's "Magic Light"--are doing something real with psychology and can evoke an experience of the impossible.

Since you all have shown me patience and kindness on the mentalism forums--even though my "cup is full" of mental magic and full of fear that mentalism might be against my religion--I will tell you a true story: I know what it feels like to be a mentalist.

When I was back in college, my Dad and I performed believable mentalism all the time: at parties, in classes, in bars, at the Waffle House, on the street, to Mormons who came to the door. It was mostly a c*** act we had made up on our own with a few other little things we had stumbled upon thrown in. The methods were simple and didn't really matter because we were acting as if it was all real. We said it was a genetic thing, alluding to others in the family being able to do things, which we effected now and then. I was usually the reluctant one who had to be begged to demonstrate. We had a big fat book by Dr. Rhine from Duke University that we would flash around. We were both heavy drinkers at the time and had no qualms about playing it up as real.

I am not saying we performed great mentalism or that what we did was right. I am just saying that I know how performing mentalism feels. Mentalism is NOTHING like "magic light" tricks. The chart is just my way of thinking through the differences and performance choices.
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Jun 25, 2016 08:36PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Actually, the term "psychic entertainer" is simply an umbrella term that covers mentalists, bizarrists, hypnotists, readers, and allied artists.

The word "psychic, in this instance, is used to denote "of the mind." [/quote]

Sorry, Bob. On the first scroll down, I missed this clarification in the barrage of drama. If I revise the chart I should replace the term with just "Mentalist."
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 25, 2016 08:43PM)
Alan- Did you miss my reply to your original post? I gave a detailed explanation there, but, basically, "Psychic Entertainer" is an umbrella term and doesn't belong on the list at all. The phrase was coined and defined by Tony Raven and the co-founders of The Psychic Entertainer's Association back in 1977.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 26, 2016 12:01AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, Alan Wheeler wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, Decomposed wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, Alan Wheeler wrote:
The >>>>>>>>> signifies two items are paired or parallel on a chart of believability.

Real, closed-eye psychic>>>>>>>>>>>>Real, practicing Occultist
Psychic charlatan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Occultist charlatan
Psychic entertainer>>>[edit]PERHAPS PARANORMALIST OR SPIRIT THEATER GOES HERE
Mentalist with disclaimer>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre magician with disclaimer
Mind-reading magician>>>>>>>>>>>>Realistic magician (Blaine-style)
Mental-magic-trickster>>>>>>>>>>>>Bizarre-themed-magic trickster
Magician>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Magician
--[edit]PERHAPS PLAY OR MOVIE MAGIC GOES HERE---

Also note: The times, they are a'changing. In the 19th/early 20th century, magic shows and science shows and spiritualist shows had the same mysterious tone, and a much larger percent of the audience--including Sir Arthur Conan Doyle--found even magic shows more believable. Part of the "Magic Light" movement of Don Alan funsters probably comes from changing audience expectations. [/quote]

That is a good list but you left out Paranormalist. Regarding the mentoring, I have friends who are magicians, not beginners. Okay they ask me questions etc about new products etc. So I do help them, not how to perform mentalism with whatever it is but about the product, or the basic routine. Then they tell me they tried it and its not for them, or it did not work well etc... I know in my heart of hearts they presented it as a mere trick. Call in mentalism, call it basic theatre, acting or whatever, I still meant what I said, you can kill something that is created by a mentalist by going out and watch this...turning it into a magic trick. I see mental magic as what the product is about not how the performer uses it. A prop comes out for a prediction effect and it includes a little magicky box and three preprinted cards. Mental magic. A trickster takes this after doing cups and balls and uses it, he is doing magic. Will someone afterwards ask him how he got his gift? Doubtful. Its what the spectators see, not what we discuss on the Café.

Perhaps taking a brand new beginner (empty cup) and training them in the art of mentalism and theatre has its merits and can be successful. Taking a person who has been performing magic for said amount of time and teaching mentalism? Difficult and lackluster results at best. Sure there are exceptions but once magic is ingrained, I see it very difficult to change one into a mentalist. [/quote]

On my chart (just food for thought which needs revision), wouldn't Paranormalist or Spirit Theater be paired with Psychic Entertainer, on a higher believability level than acts with a disclaimer? Also, I think an even lower level on the list would be play or movie actors acting the roles of magicians, because at least magicians--even the ones cultivating the unbelievable tone of the funny trickster's "Magic Light"--are doing something real with psychology and can evoke an experience of the impossible.

Since you all have shown me patience and kindness on the mentalism forums--even though my "cup is full" of mental magic and full of fear that mentalism might be against my religion--I will tell you a true story: I know what it feels like to be a mentalist.

When I was back in college, my Dad and I performed believable mentalism all the time: at parties, in classes, in bars, at the Waffle House, on the street, to Mormons who came to the door. It was mostly a c*** act we had made up on our own with a few other little things we had stumbled upon thrown in. The methods were simple and didn't really matter because we were acting as if it was all real. We said it was a genetic thing, alluding to others in the family being able to do things, which we effected now and then. I was usually the reluctant one who had to be begged to demonstrate. We had a big fat book by Dr. Rhine from Duke University that we would flash around. We were both heavy drinkers at the time and had no qualms about playing it up as real.

I am not saying we performed great mentalism or that what we did was right. I am just saying that I know how performing mentalism feels. Mentalism is NOTHING like "magic light" tricks. The chart is just my way of thinking through the differences and performance choices. [/quote]



Interesting, me mom worked at Duke 30 yrs. Last I heard, Sally Rhine (Dr RHine) the daughter was still at Duke....
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Jun 26, 2016 10:25AM)
We never really knew anything about Dr. Rhine. We found the big, fat blue book at a yard sale in the 1980s around the time [I]Ghostbusters[/I] came out: never read it, just used as a convincer. If I remember right it was full of symbols and formulas and scientific-looking statistics. We would allude to Dr. Rhine at Duke University to add credibility to our demonstrations but had no idea he had left there in 1965.

I more recently saw online that Dr. Rhine left Duke and established his own research center. (Not as great a convincer as Duke University!) I think I saw a YouTube video not long ago of a conference held in his name by maybe his wife or daughter and associates. [url=http://www.rhine.org/who-we-are.html]Here's some history on the Rhine Research Center.[/url]

OK. Here goes a different, simplified believability chart (Thanks Bob and Decomposed!)

Psychics [real or charlatan--you decide]
Psychic Entertainers [real or an act--you decide]
Psychic Entertainment with disclaimer (Derren Brown?)
Psychic-themed Magicians (Amazing Kreskin, Eugene Burger?)
Mystical Magicians (David Blaine?)
Magician Tricksters
Play or Movie Magicians
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Jun 26, 2016 03:49PM)
Wow, not to derail but check out this page at the Rhine site!:

http://www.rhine.org/what-we-do/current-research/296-list-of-research-projects.html
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 26, 2016 11:44PM)
Wow great info Alan and thanks Last Laugh, nice ESP website.

I thought of another today going to a gig....may have been already mentioned, psychological magician. :bigsmile:
Message: Posted by: jstreiff (Jun 27, 2016 09:10AM)
Rhine Research is the modern name of the original Duke Parapsychology lab. For awhile it was known as the FRNM, the Foundation for Research into the Nature of Man. Until few years ago Rhine's daughter, Sally Rhine Feather was Director. Today the lab is managed by the affiable and highly capable John G. Kruth. Rhine Research offers online lectures and continues to do research. John and his colleagues presented some of their more recent work recently in Boulder Co. at the joint SSE/PA Conference.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Jun 27, 2016 03:49PM)
I was especially intrigued by the PK studies they mention and the individual who can apparently do it repeatedly...
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 27, 2016 07:31PM)
Wow more great info!
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Jul 6, 2016 06:18PM)
[quote]On Jun 21, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
One can infer that he was ALWAYS viewed that way. Back when he was appearing on the network talk shows, hosts frequently made jokes about him as did sitcom writers. The exact opposite was true about Dunninger.

Not to forget that Kreskin, in his shows, goes out of his way to claim he has no special abilities or psychic powers. He spends most of his time name-dropping and telling stories about the old days on The Tonight Show, apparently wanting to establish himself primarily as a television celebrity.

I don't believe he ever established a credible back story, persona, or any sort of consistency in his effects or claims. Even though he appropriated virtually all of Dunninger's original show, he never came near the mind-reader persona that Dunninger perfected.

But the fact is that he is primarily booked as Kreskin. [/quote]

When Bob posted this I couldn't find the advertisements Kreskin had all over the casino. I just did:

THE AMAZING KRESKIN: THE WORLD'S GREATEST MENTALIST

And inside the bi fold advertisement he is referred to twice more as the "world's greatest" mentalist. Wonder why the use of quote marks around world's greatest? But certainly clearly booked as a mentalist.
Message: Posted by: ibm_usa (Feb 24, 2017 08:11PM)
Sorry for reviving a dead thread but I figured I could add something.
I can see a mentalist doing some sleight of hand (coins and cards) sparingly or casually. Reason why is to the audience - the two are completely different processes. The mentalist's methods are (assuming things are done right) invisible to the audience. Most magicians have a fixation with fancy out of the ordinary props.

The psychological mentalist might get bonus points because sleight of hand requires the understanding of psychophysics (sensational and perception psychology).

Used sparingly a mentalist could have some liberty to do some sleights.... If kept to a minimum and executed casually.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jun 2, 2017 09:34PM)
Good take. Some well known pros still performing both. Thanks 😆
Message: Posted by: jstreiff (Jun 3, 2017 08:15AM)
I would suggest that introducing sleights and going beyond card handling ability of a competent card player strongly suggests you are doing tricks. It moves the cards from symbols to magical props. It changes the spectators' potential perception of the cards from something used to play games to something used to do tricks. Not a good idea in a mentalism (not magic) show IMO.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 3, 2017 08:29AM)
My exact thoughts as well. Same for most audiences or those seeing your performance. This is a disillusion many magicians-turned-"mentalists" seem to have, which many refer to as magician's thinking.
Message: Posted by: Max Hazy (Jun 3, 2017 12:12PM)
I was once introduced as a magician, did mentalism stuff (with a little "magic" after the show)... and was later called to give a psychology lecture on sales (which I did). In my practical experience, I'm pretty sure you can mix both... you just have to make sure your presentation will make them see the difference. You have to put yourself in the shoes of the audience.

About sleights, I agree to some extent. I say "some" because:
1) There are sleights that play invisible anyway. I can cull cards right under participants noses, even slowly. If they don't see sleights, there will be no sleights.
2) You can do things "off hand" to counter that "sleight" problem too.
3) Logical disconnects can also eliminate sleights.

But obviously, if you show yourself to be a virtuoso handling whatever goes to your hand with absolute skill in manipulation, people will suspect whatever you touch and burn your hands. I think the major rule here is to not let your hand skills obfuscate your mental skills.

I'm glad that I were a magician before I became a mentalist. There are magician's tools that I can use in mentalism and today I have a deeper understanding from that. One clear example is this: After reading "One In The Chamber" from Intrepid's Rogue, I immediately thought about the mercury fold to eliminate the need for something else there. Even a pure mentalist would benefit a lot from knowing magician's stuff, that's for sure.

To me the bottom line is this: You can be whatever role you wanna play, you just have to play the role properly.

Max
Message: Posted by: Ben Blau (Jun 3, 2017 05:34PM)
I think that with enough talent, you can be anything you want. Break the mold and create your own thing.

Ben
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 4, 2017 05:01AM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2017, Max Hazy wrote:

To me the bottom line is this: You can be whatever role you wanna play, you just have to play the role properly.

Max [/quote]

to thump on the other side of the drum ...

isn't the expectations of the audience most important?

if they expect to see a demonstration of the impossible defeated they will appreciate conjuring more than "I have mental powers."

If the expect to see their pre-existing belief in paranormal potentials reenforced, then conjuring will be disappointing and even poor mentalism applauded.

if they just want "to be entertained" then juggling or comedy stripping may be better.

A re-read of all the posts on this theme would suggest that "don't do these in the same show."

Yes, in any role you should do it as well as possible. Which role is appropriate? That is a different matter.

Note that 'old timers' like Ormand McGill performed conjuring in the first half of the show and Mentalism in the second - never the other way around.

He felt that pretending at magic conditioned the audience to accept that everyone might have abilities "beyond normal."
He also wrote that audiences expect a magician to have "above average" abilities in many things. No sure that this is true today.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 4, 2017 05:43AM)
[quote]On Jun 4, 2017, funsway wrote:
[quote]On Jun 3, 2017, Max Hazy wrote:

To me the bottom line is this: You can be whatever role you wanna play, you just have to play the role properly.

Max [/quote]

to thump on the other side of the drum ...

isn't the expectations of the audience most important?[/quote]


And even more so the booking client, venue, agent or promoter that is hiring and paying for you? Whenever I hear such statements about "it's just for the audience" or "as long as they're being entertained...," it tells me all I need to know about the performer.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 4, 2017 07:52AM)
Can you expand on that, mindpro?

Are you saying give the bookers what they expect and want, rather than them booking you for what you deliver and have to offer?
Message: Posted by: Max Hazy (Jun 4, 2017 09:49AM)
I have to agree with funsway and mindpro here. I just tried to focus on the topic that yes, you can play both roles, you just have to take some considerations.

But about your subject, yes, I agree with you two, but I have some observations:

What I mean with "playing the role properly" is not only about the role itself, it's about all the implications that comes with it.
For example, the expectations of the audience are very important indeed... but performance time and time again showed me I can CREATE expectation through the role. In fact, I can surpass their expectations too, that's when you get a standing ovation. You can do that using the role you choose as a tool and it will not matter once you have your identity. You can, playing your role, create expectations, surpass their expectations and off course make the booking client more than satisfied. If you're not exactly what they are expecting and you can't create expectations with performance, that's going to be a problem... for both the audience and the booking client.

I'll never forget the time I was introduced as a magician in the headquarters, then I did mentalism stuff playing the role of a mentalist. I did some magic in the post performance too, but I was asked to do a lecture about psychology on sales (which I did) thanks to the mentalism performance. That was the biggest wake-up to me that I can play both roles, all I have to do is be careful to show the difference and not let one thing obfuscate the other.

What mindpro said here is very important too. I'm about to do a show in a big promotional event and I was very clear about what I do so there's no surprises. There's a "wizard" here who do tarot reading and he was dismissed because the booking client don't want that kind of image associated with the event. The "witch" stuff. I told the client that I'm a mentalist and I study and reproduce phenomenons associated with the mind and many of the things I do can be perceived as supernatural. I was hired. She knows exactly what I'm going to do and she's ok with it. At this point, my only concern will be to make the audience go wild so the booking client will call me again. Clothes, actions, verbiage, the way you behave... all of that can make a difference to make the booking client call you again or not.

So funsway and mindpro, in other words, the bottom line is this: You can be whatever role you wanna play, you just have to play the role properly. If you're not what they expect but you're so interesting that they can't help but get involved, you'll be successful. If you're exactly what they expect but you can't pick their interest, you will face a problem. In any case you have to take in consideration all the implications of your role.

I just focused on the first part to not go off topic.

Max
Message: Posted by: toniyammine (Jul 21, 2017 03:38PM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2017, Ben Blau wrote:
I think that with enough talent, you can be anything you want. Break the mold and create your own thing.

Ben [/quote]

exactly.

It all depends on how you want to be perceived! but with the right talent, you can do anything you want. do not label things!
Message: Posted by: tomd (Jul 21, 2017 04:16PM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2017, Ben Blau wrote:
I think that with enough talent, you can be anything you want. Break the mold and create your own thing.

Ben [/quote]

Ben Blau I could not agree more..

Side note, Out of all the people I have met and made friends with because of my magic (not a mentalist), some are convinced I CAN read people, they are unsure how, but they make it clear to me. why? They don't understand magic, mentalism isn't in their lexicon, and the word "magic" in their minds is an umbrella that covers more than sleight of hand. And I'm only talking about when I perform "mental magic".

But if your wondering if I think you can go from the ambitious card, to 4DT in the same act... HAHA.. no.
Message: Posted by: loserdlj (Mar 1, 2019 03:27AM)
Ben Blau I could not agree more..
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 1, 2019 03:41AM)
Most people aren't as talented as they think though...
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 1, 2019 01:38PM)
Oh, you can mix magic with mentalism, I don't think anyone ever said you can't, but don't think you are likely to be seen or accepted as a mentalist. I think the one thing that has been shown here is many don't care about being seen as a pure mentalist, and that is fine with them. They think, operate and perform as a magician doing mental material. They are happy being a magician and doing mental magic.
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Mar 1, 2019 06:08PM)
[quote]On Mar 1, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
So glad Banachek clarified it once and for all here. This argument comes up often...
Nice that this was addressed rather than using self-interpretations from outside resources and Wikipedia, or other's opinions. Nothing like hearing it from the horses mouth... [/quote]

I agree 100%
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Mar 1, 2019 10:31PM)
The irony of somebody whining because people disagree then saying some people can’t handle it when people disagree with them is worth reading through this pointless thread. I’ve said it before but people self-owning, especially when they fail to see it, is one of my favorite things in the world.
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Mar 2, 2019 10:57AM)
A way to mix mentalism with magic is to become a bizarrist and focus on the storytelling aspect.
Message: Posted by: Stewart (Mar 5, 2019 10:45PM)
I am going to say something controversial here. Not only do I think that you can use magic in a mental act I think you SHOULD use it! You really, really SHOULD! Oddly enough by doing so they are more likely to believe your mentalism is the real thing! A sort of reverse psychology!

In times past there was indeed validity in the standard wisdom that you should never mix the two. Alas nowadays in the days of the internet with all the secrets exposed and a mentalist on every street corner laymen no longer believe that some guy on stage is not using trickery. There are far too many mentalists around for the whole thing to be credible. People do not believe it is the real thing any more.

In the days of yore mentalism had more credibility and more people believed it was the real thing. That is because there were so few mentalists around. The scarcity of such acts is what gave laymen the thought that there might, just might, be something in it. But not now when there is a mentalist on every street corner. The main appeal of mentalism is that it might be real. That is gone now.

That is why it is actually ADVISABLE to do magic in your mental act! Not mandatory but advisable. By doing magic you are presenting a subtle disclaimer that what you are doing is not real mindreading. However, by some odd quirk of psychology you will find that the layman will resist your implication of trickery simply because you hinting it is not real.

A little complicated but I really believe that is what is going on in the mind of your audience. You don't have to accept what I say but I can assure you that I have been doing this stuff rather a long time and what I say is based on experience.
Message: Posted by: corindaman (Mar 7, 2019 03:37AM)
I think it demeans and lessens both diciplines! do not mix and match.
Message: Posted by: GlennLawrence (Mar 7, 2019 12:46PM)
I think Fabuloso gets it right, here. Not everyone can pull it off but some can. Derren Brown comes to mind with the Gorilla thing he does before intermission (or the interval as my friends across the pond would say). It would seem out of place for a mentalist of his caliber to do such a silly thing yet it works for him.
Message: Posted by: Stewart (Mar 7, 2019 12:51PM)
Koran opened his mental act with the Linking Rings and there were still plenty of daft people who thought he was the real thing. I have seen David Berglas close his mental act with a demonstration of pickpocketing of all things. I have seen Kreskin do magic tricks on stage. It can be done.
Message: Posted by: GlennLawrence (Mar 7, 2019 12:58PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, Stewart wrote:
Koran opened his mental act with the Linking Rings and there were still plenty of daft people who thought he was the real thing. I have seen David Berglas close his mental act with a demonstration of pickpocketing of all things. I have seen Kreskin do magic tricks on stage. It can be done. [/quote]

Oh yes, forgot about Kreskin- I've seen him twice, once in the 80's and again about 6 yrs ago. I can specifically remember him doing the linking finger rings the first time which I thought was a bit odd but it went over pretty well. He may have done other "magicky" stuff, I don't recall for sure.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 7, 2019 01:05PM)
I think the big names mentioned are valid, however, it's a very rare breed that can mix them... Very few can, and most ruin it...
Message: Posted by: Stewart (Mar 7, 2019 01:20PM)
I submit that very few mentalists whether they include magic or not can perform without boring everyone to death. So they ruin it anyway.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Mar 7, 2019 01:58PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, IAIN wrote:
I think the big names mentioned are valid, however, it's a very rare breed that can mix them... Very few can, and most ruin it... [/quote]

True. I think we ruin it when we don’t understand the real effect of mentalism nor have a real process. It becomes too often a matter of “how did he see what I wrote”. Given that most mentalists rely on some sort of recorded information (billet, book, pad, etc.), and are not especially great at expanding and building upon the bit of fixed information, it doesn’t really achieve the full effect that mentalism is capable of. It’s just “another trick”.

That said, I don’t happen to be of the mind any longer that what distinguishes mentalism from magic is that “it might be real”. Depending on your performance style, there might be that feeling from some audience members, but it’s actually pretty rare and not a necessity to me. At the same time, magicians who crossover to magic but never really get the role they’re playing just produce boring, predictable mentalism.

I actually think that the mentalism trend will fade away soon as a lot of magicians are going to come to the conclusion that it IS boring and not engaging while never realizing that it was there own lack of understanding the effect that makes it so. Virtually self-working mentalism gadgets like electronics, Svengali pads, etc have made this even worse. It’s “easy” to add a mental effect to your repertoire, but *** hard to make it really play and get the response potential that is there. Eventually the novelty will wear off and they’ll move on to some other thing. Soon I hope!
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Mar 7, 2019 02:10PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, Robb wrote:
I actually think that the mentalism trend will fade away soon as a lot of magicians are going to come to the conclusion that it IS boring and not engaging while never realizing that it was there own lack of understanding the effect that makes it so. Virtually self-working mentalism gadgets like electronics, Svengali pads, etc have made this even worse. It’s “easy” to add a mental effect to your repertoire, but *** hard to make it really play and get the response potential that is there. Eventually the novelty will wear off and they’ll move on to some other thing. Soon I hope! [/quote]

Quite my thinking... A mentalist can do a magic trick and still will be perceived as a mentalist. A magician who does a mental or mental magic trick doesn't become a mentalist. Jan
Message: Posted by: dismany (Mar 7, 2019 02:18PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, Robb wrote:
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, IAIN wrote:
I think the big names mentioned are valid, however, it's a very rare breed that can mix them... Very few can, and most ruin it... [/quote]

True. I think we ruin it when we don’t understand the real effect of mentalism nor have a real process. It becomes too often a matter of “how did he see what I wrote”. Given that most mentalists rely on some sort of recorded information (billet, book, pad, etc.), and are not especially great at expanding and building upon the bit of fixed information, it doesn’t really achieve the full effect that mentalism is capable of. It’s just “another trick”.

That said, I don’t happen to be of the mind any longer that what distinguishes mentalism from magic is that “it might be real”. Depending on your performance style, there might be that feeling from some audience members, but it’s actually pretty rare and not a necessity to me. At the same time, magicians who crossover to magic but never really get the role they’re playing just produce boring, predictable mentalism.

I actually think that the mentalism trend will fade away soon as a lot of magicians are going to come to the conclusion that it IS boring and not engaging while never realizing that it was there own lack of understanding the effect that makes it so. Virtually self-working mentalism gadgets like electronics, Svengali pads, etc have made this even worse. It’s “easy” to add a mental effect to your repertoire, but *** hard to make it really play and get the response potential that is there. Eventually the novelty will wear off and they’ll move on to some other thing. Soon I hope! [/quote]

Not me, man, I'm gonna keep practicing and keep reading and keep trying until I get it right, since I know that mentalism is the only kind of magic that excites me as a "spectator" as well as a performer. I think the challenge is getting the role, and it is a challenge. I wholly different frame to work from as I have realized...but then again, I'm just a hobbyist so I'm not one of the people you're talking about. I quit magic long long ago professionally and now, coming back to only mentalism, changing my frame of mind completely while actually pursuing a different profession money-wise. I don't want to ruin mentalism with lack of understanding...I guess I felt similarly about magic but I'm never quitting again...mentalism is setting my soul on fire that it hasn't seen since I was last excited about magic. But you're right, it is a phase probably for many. I actually tried to "shake it off" when the bug bit me again 4 years ago, but the bite-wound grew and here I am, reading and practicing more than I ever had as a working magician.
Message: Posted by: CGould (Mar 7, 2019 02:24PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, dismany wrote:
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, Robb wrote:
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, IAIN wrote:
I think the big names mentioned are valid, however, it's a very rare breed that can mix them... Very few can, and most ruin it... [/quote]

True. I think we ruin it when we don’t understand the real effect of mentalism nor have a real process. It becomes too often a matter of “how did he see what I wrote”. Given that most mentalists rely on some sort of recorded information (billet, book, pad, etc.), and are not especially great at expanding and building upon the bit of fixed information, it doesn’t really achieve the full effect that mentalism is capable of. It’s just “another trick”.

That said, I don’t happen to be of the mind any longer that what distinguishes mentalism from magic is that “it might be real”. Depending on your performance style, there might be that feeling from some audience members, but it’s actually pretty rare and not a necessity to me. At the same time, magicians who crossover to magic but never really get the role they’re playing just produce boring, predictable mentalism.

I actually think that the mentalism trend will fade away soon as a lot of magicians are going to come to the conclusion that it IS boring and not engaging while never realizing that it was there own lack of understanding the effect that makes it so. Virtually self-working mentalism gadgets like electronics, Svengali pads, etc have made this even worse. It’s “easy” to add a mental effect to your repertoire, but *** hard to make it really play and get the response potential that is there. Eventually the novelty will wear off and they’ll move on to some other thing. Soon I hope! [/quote]

Not me, man, I'm gonna keep practicing and keep reading and keep trying until I get it right, since I know that mentalism is the only kind of magic that excites me as a "spectator" as well as a performer. I think the challenge is getting the role, and it is a challenge. I wholly different frame to work from as I have realized...but then again, I'm just a hobbyist so I'm not one of the people you're talking about. I quit magic long long ago professionally and now, coming back to only mentalism, changing my frame of mind completely while actually pursuing a different profession money-wise. I don't want to ruin mentalism with lack of understanding...I guess I felt similarly about magic but I'm never quitting again...mentalism is setting my soul on fire that it hasn't seen since I was last excited about magic. But you're right, it is a phase probably for many. I actually tried to "shake it off" when the bug bit me again 4 years ago, but the bite-wound grew and here I am, reading and practicing more than I ever had as a working magician. [/quote]

I took interest in magic as a kid, it entertained me but never truly held my attention.

Mentalism on the other hand, I can't get enough information on. I don't ever plan to be a working magician or mentalist, I honestly just take a lot of enjoyment in learning more about the art or learning an effect for my own entertainment. I'm hooked on the learning aspect about it and find a mentalist far more entertaining for me to experience.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 7, 2019 02:25PM)
[quote] Not me, man, I'm gonna keep practicing and keep reading and keep trying until I get it right, since I know that mentalism is the only kind of magic that excites me...[/quote]

As long as you keep seeing mentalism as a type of magic you are likely to never get there.

Plus, I don't know where you guys have been but he mentalism wagon has long left town. The boom of 1-15 years ago is long over.
Message: Posted by: CGould (Mar 7, 2019 02:29PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[quote] Not me, man, I'm gonna keep practicing and keep reading and keep trying until I get it right, since I know that mentalism is the only kind of magic that excites me...[/quote]

As long as you keep seeing mentalism as a type of magic you are likely to never get there.

Plus, I don't know where you guys have been but he mentalism wagon has long left town. The boom of 1-15 years ago is long over. [/quote]



Must the wagon be present for someone to take interest in something?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 7, 2019 03:01PM)
Nope, just making a point to a comment referenced earlier.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Mar 7, 2019 07:23PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[quote] Not me, man, I'm gonna keep practicing and keep reading and keep trying until I get it right, since I know that mentalism is the only kind of magic that excites me...[/quote]

As long as you keep seeing mentalism as a type of magic you are likely to never get there.
[/quote]

I have been silent on this discussion for some time since few seem to appreciate the opinions of one doing both conjuring and mental based magic before they were born --
but methinks this statement goes too far.

First off, any demonstration of inexplicable phenomena or what the observer considers to be impossible or even improbable is "magic." That is what the word means.
There may be good reason to avoid the term "magician," but you can't just pretend "magic" means something else to cater to your personal fears or wants.

Next, what matters is what the observer perceives and considers to be magic. Many here keep claiming to know what the observer thinks but never presents any evidence.
Does anyone actually feel that what an assaulted spectator says after a performance is a true representation of what they feel - then or now or later?
What is known by studies not run by performers is that the concept of magic is universal and possibly hard-wired in our brain. You can choose another label,
but every person is going to see what you do and call it something - and it will be the same for conjuring and mentalism magic and mentalism.

Third, a spectator or unsuspecting victim will not know if you are a mentalist or con juror or juggler or priest except by what you claim to be.
They may have certain expectations based on your hype -- and that certainly can influence their response to what is presented.

a) a person expecting conjuring with physical objects may feel cheated if you only do mental based demonstrations.
b) a person expecting mental based demonstrations may feel dismayed by a lot of conjuring since they may seek validation of what the already feel about paranormal phenomena.
c) a person who has no clue as to what is about to occur or who I am cannot be either cheated or dismayed since they have no expectations.

Astonishment can occur in any of these approaches. Whether or not it is considered "magic" is based on their experience and expectations.
In the first two case "magic" will be the choice unless "never happened" or "divine intervention" does not override.

In (c) the fallback not "magic" does not occur at all. It does not matter of it is physically based impossibility or mental based improbability ,--
the observer will instead evaluate their definition and categorization of "impossible."
Not theory. I did exactly that more than 40,000 times in thirty years. Probably 80% would be consider conjuring by most of you here, and only 20% paranormal demonstration.

Yeah, and I did performance magic for entertainment too -- physical and mental as seemed appropriate.

Now we are expected to accept that "mentalism" is dead or dying. So what?

I will go out tomorrow and select the best approach for my audience, setting, culture, language and perceived expectations. No label supplied by another will limit that.
No shilly-shally of what magic means will make any difference.

I know that every stranger met has within the capacity for awe and wonder that can be kindled and appreciated.
Mostly I will choose to do nothing as I have no permission to invade their thoughts. But, given permission and respectful attention I am prepared.
That ability will not be dead until I am.

If someone says, "Are you a mentalist" I will refer them to one of you making a living with the pretense.
If they should ask if I am magician I will clarify their expectations before proceeding.
If they tell me a story of an experience they consider to be magic, I will follow in kind ...

By the way, I never charge any fee for the magic I orchestrate. A choice that maybe that sets me free --
or renders my opinions and experience worthless to you.
Message: Posted by: dismany (Mar 7, 2019 11:12PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[/quote] Not me, man, I'm gonna keep practicing and keep reading and keep trying until I get it right, since I know that mentalism is the only kind of magic that excites me...[/quote]

As long as you keep seeing mentalism as a type of magic you are likely to never get there.

Plus, I don't know where you guys have been but he mentalism wagon has long left town. The boom of 1-15 years ago is long over. [/quote]

I see it as something related but a very different framework, but thank you for your encouraging opinion. Is not really about the magic...our the mentalism...it's about the performer.so I don't think it's my view of whether mentalism is magical whether determines whether I get there, but me. The me that I present will be the one that maximizes the reactions. That will come with practice and time and faith. Thank you for your opinion though.
Message: Posted by: dismany (Mar 8, 2019 02:16PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
C'est Moi!

I don't know why I bother either, because I really don't care if someone agrees with me are not. I just try to help newcomers understand the fundamental differences between magic and mentalism. [/quote]

I'm glad you did argue and make your voice heard here, Bob. Thank God for all these pages of "opinions" from a a great as yourself, as you are now gone from this world, these pages - not to mention your books - are a great way to still find you and your heartfelt desire for newcomers to move in the right direction. RIP and thank you for all that you wrote, whether I like it or not. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the difference, not just mentally but practically in every way, and reading your comments are a blessing leading me in the right direction.
Message: Posted by: dismany (Mar 8, 2019 02:26PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, CGould wrote:

As long as you keep seeing mentalism as a type of magic you are likely to never get there.
[/quote]


You're right, we should get hung up on the semantics of what I wrote and not the rest of my statement. Maybe you're right, maybe not having the right "word" or definition in my mind as I vocalize it will prevent me from making it actual mentalism. It is forever going to hard for me not to see mentalism as a subset of magic, or at the very least magical. One of my first 2 "magic" lectures that I went to as a teenager put on by Misdirections MAGIC shop was Docc Hilford, who definitely performed both mentalism and magic as the weirdist. Still some of the most fun I've had being fooled and taught at a lecture. So maybe since the fact of that connection (magic shop and mentalism lectures where the dude really appeared psychic) will never be wiped away, I am forever doomed to be a magician who wants to be a mentalist. Or maybe there is really how you view things, and lack of better words to explain yourself. But thank you for jumping at the most negative point you could have caught to give me a word of discouragement. Is that what you old pros with 10000 posts on here are all like?
Message: Posted by: Robb (Mar 8, 2019 06:07PM)
[quote]On Mar 8, 2019, dismany wrote:
[quote]On Mar 7, 2019, CGould wrote:

As long as you keep seeing mentalism as a type of magic you are likely to never get there.
[/quote]


You're right, we should get hung up on the semantics of what I wrote and not the rest of my statement. Maybe you're right, maybe not having the right "word" or definition in my mind as I vocalize it will prevent me from making it actual mentalism. It is forever going to hard for me not to see mentalism as a subset of magic, or at the very least magical. One of my first 2 "magic" lectures that I went to as a teenager put on by Misdirections MAGIC shop was Docc Hilford, who definitely performed both mentalism and magic as the weirdist. Still some of the most fun I've had being fooled and taught at a lecture. So maybe since the fact of that connection (magic shop and mentalism lectures where the dude really appeared psychic) will never be wiped away, I am forever doomed to be a magician who wants to be a mentalist. Or maybe there is really how you view things, and lack of better words to explain yourself. But thank you for jumping at the most negative point you could have caught to give me a word of discouragement. Is that what you old pros with 10000 posts on here are all like? [/quote]

Look man, you have to take what MindPro says with a grain of salt. It will *never* be truly positive or even helpful. He will only tell you what you don’t know, what you’re not getting right, etc. Ignore it. In fact, ignore all forms of negativity that might diminish or warp your passion for what you are working toward. Maybe in the end what you create would be accepted as “mentalism” by the self-proclaimed authorities but does it really matter? Nah, not one bit.

Have fun!
Message: Posted by: dismany (Mar 13, 2019 09:51AM)
[quote]On Mar 8, 2019, Robb wrote:

Look man, you have to take what MindPro says with a grain of salt. It will *never* be truly positive or even helpful. He will only tell you what you don’t know, what you’re not getting right, etc. Ignore it. In fact, ignore all forms of negativity that might diminish or warp your passion for what you are working toward. Maybe in the end what you create would be accepted as “mentalism” by the self-proclaimed authorities but does it really matter? Nah, not one bit.

Have fun! [/quote]

Thanks Robb!
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Mar 13, 2019 01:36PM)
[quote]On Mar 8, 2019, dismany wrote:
Maybe you're right, maybe not having the right "word" or definition in my mind as I vocalize it will prevent me from making it actual mentalism. It is forever going to hard for me not to see mentalism as a subset of magic, or at the very least magical. One of my first 2 "magic" lectures that I went to as a teenager put on by Misdirections MAGIC shop was Docc Hilford, who definitely performed both mentalism and magic as the weirdist.... I am forever doomed to be a magician who wants to be a mentalist....Is that what you old pros with 10000 posts on here are all like? [/quote]

Wow, a lot to unpack here. And I can do it all without resorting to even talking about the magician versus mentalist debate/discussion/argument/discourse.

1.) You made a very correct statement in saying "not having the right "word" or definition in my mind as I vocalize it will prevent me from making it actual". Unfortunately, I think you were being sarcastic. Are you familiar with the works of Kenton Knepper, specifically "Wonder Words"? If not, I think that is a good investment. Besides having direct relevance to improving the impact of magic, mentalism, work presentations, etc., you get a good idea of how labeling something impacts how a person feels about it. So [b] yes, not have the right "word" is a huge effing deal and passing it off like this is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. [/b]

2.) It's all well and good if you think mentalism is a subset of magic. That's a labeling thing that you'll have to deal with yourself (see point 1 above). However, and maybe it's inexperience, I don't know, but both your understanding of set theory as well as subsets of fields/genre are a bit exposed here. Bizarre magick is a subset of magic, so are balloon animals and sponge balls. Is it possible to combine bizarre magick with sponge balls and balloons? Oh yeah sure. Could 99% of people pull it off and still have a convincing bizarre magick show? Absolutely not. Being a subset of the same thing DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE THE SAME THING. [b] Basic set theory right there [/b]. To put it more bluntly, a white horse is a horse. A brown horse is a horse. A white horse is NOT a brown horse, so a race with WHITE HORSES cannot be run with a brown horse. <I feel a stupid magician joke from somebody about paint or something, just put the keyboard down>.

3.) Don't you love Joe and Misdirections? He's such a good guy and he has SO MUCH STUFF that is hard to get! Are you going to Chris' lecture this month?

4.) You are doomed to be what you expect yourself to be. Nothing more, nothing less.

5.) The thing about old pros with 10,000 posts is that they have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of people with 10 posts thinking they know everything. I think the bigger question here is how someone with such limited exposure/experience is so sure of themselves that they will literally talk smack about people with over 1,000 times as many posts as them. Everything else is a bit forgivable, that smacks of utter disrespect, ignorance, and arrogance. I need to be honest here, aside from the much better writing style, this would seem like the big rash of new Café members who seem an awfully like Senor Fabuloso. Again, your actual writing is much better so I don't actually think so at the moment, but you do share the same arrogance. I'd strongly advise checking yourself.

Why can't we mute or block people here, sigh...
Message: Posted by: dismany (Mar 21, 2019 04:37PM)
1.) You made a very correct statement in saying "not having the right "word" or definition in my mind as I vocalize it will prevent me from making it actual". Unfortunately, I think you were being sarcastic. Are you familiar with the works of Kenton Knepper, specifically "Wonder Words"? If not, I think that is a good investment. Besides having direct relevance to improving the impact of magic, mentalism, work presentations, etc., you get a good idea of how labeling something impacts how a person feels about it. So [b] yes, not have the right "word" is a huge effing deal and passing it off like this is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. [/b]

2.) It's all well and good if you think mentalism is a subset of magic. That's a labeling thing that you'll have to deal with yourself (see point 1 above). However, and maybe it's inexperience, I don't know, but both your understanding of set theory as well as subsets of fields/genre are a bit exposed here. Bizarre magick is a subset of magic, so are balloon animals and sponge balls. Is it possible to combine bizarre magick with sponge balls and balloons? Oh yeah sure. Could 99% of people pull it off and still have a convincing bizarre magick show? Absolutely not. Being a subset of the same thing DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE THE SAME THING. [b] Basic set theory right there [/b]. To put it more bluntly, a white horse is a horse. A brown horse is a horse. A white horse is NOT a brown horse, so a race with WHITE HORSES cannot be run with a brown horse. <I feel a stupid magician joke from somebody about paint or something, just put the keyboard down>.

3.) Don't you love Joe and Misdirections? He's such a good guy and he has SO MUCH STUFF that is hard to get! Are you going to Chris' lecture this month?

4.) You are doomed to be what you expect yourself to be. Nothing more, nothing less.

5.) The thing about old pros with 10,000 posts is that they have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of people with 10 posts thinking they know everything. I think the bigger question here is how someone with such limited exposure/experience is so sure of themselves that they will literally talk smack about people with over 1,000 times as many posts as them. Everything else is a bit forgivable, that smacks of utter disrespect, ignorance, and arrogance. I need to be honest here, aside from the much better writing style, this would seem like the big rash of new Café members who seem an awfully like Senor Fabuloso. Again, your actual writing is much better so I don't actually think so at the moment, but you do share the same arrogance. I'd strongly advise checking yourself.

Why can't we mute or block people here, sigh... [/quote]

First of all, just because I'm new here, doesn't mean I'm new. I'm new here because for years I didn't have an email address (or cared to) that was not a gmail account. I'm far from new to these pages nor am I a beginner in the magical arts. If you want to block me, do not respond to me, it's that simple. Just like MindPro didn't. He got it that I am being stupid and he can't block me but he can just not respond, which is fine. Again, you do not know me, and my writing style is a direct result from the fact I am not some newbie with no intellect or experience. I still am just not sure your differentiation here matters all that much, as long as the entertainment value and the mystery value is there. As far as snapping back at the veterans on here...you may not know me, but I know you and any bite of a remark I may have comes from years of reading. I do not live in San Francisco so unfortunately couldn't attend Chris Philpott's lecture...I'm sure it was incredible. Joe has known me since I was what you think I am, a young ignorant newbie. I'm not those things, and I don't have to agree with your belief about semantics to have the impact I want to have...or maybe I do, and in that case I will adjust my "subscript" as necessary with time and practice. I only bite back because MindPro's words were very harsh and final, as are yours. You both can bite me I'm not going anywhere.
Message: Posted by: Stunninger (Mar 21, 2019 05:28PM)
[quote]On Mar 1, 2019, Banachek wrote:

does not mean I mix magic and mentalism. I do not... it simply means that Mentalism is a subset of Magic. A section in a book on magic would contain mentalism. Mentalism is not real it is not psychic that is all it means. And yes you can indeed mix both. I prefer not to. Others do. [/quote]

So eloquently said. From the World's Number One Thought Reader. Thank you for putting this to rest.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 25, 2019 03:43PM)
Some will some won't. Those who Will are often wrong to believe their mixed-bag doesn't harm the integrity of mentalism.
Or maybe they don't care. Success doesn't require respect.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 25, 2019 07:34PM)
As Bob always said, and actually left here over, it's the trivialization and disrespect of mentalism.
Message: Posted by: Mark Timon (Mar 25, 2019 11:29PM)
You can be both and be more entertaining than just being one. People just want to be entertained, no one is thinking about the difference between both.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 26, 2019 10:47AM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2019, Mark Timon wrote:
You can be both and be more entertaining than just being one. People just want to be entertained, no one is thinking about the difference between both. [/quote]

In a way I think you are correct.
Audiences will not think about differences between a performer's mentalism and magic-tricks. It's ALL magic-tricks.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 26, 2019 04:00PM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
It's ALL magic-tricks. [/quote]

Respectfully disagree. It depends on how it's presented.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 26, 2019 04:03PM)
Me too. For anyone to say this they may not have ever experienced a real mentalism performance and experienced the differences in audiences expectations, responses, and reactions. Entirely different from magic in many ways.

And it IS about much more than just being entertaining.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 26, 2019 06:21PM)
To be clear, I'm only referring to performances that mix magic and mentalism. The audience takeaway will be "magic-show".
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 26, 2019 06:26PM)
I understand now, and I agree, thanks
Message: Posted by: Mark Timon (Mar 27, 2019 04:11AM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
To be clear, I'm only referring to performances that mix magic and mentalism. The audience takeaway will be "magic-show". [/quote]
I remember that Tamariz in one of his books says; That all magic is mentalism, because if you can bend forks , move objects with the power of the mind, make predictions, you could apply the same power to link rings, move card across. etc.. it is all about presentation.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 27, 2019 07:53AM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
To be clear, I'm only referring to performances that mix magic and mentalism. The audience takeaway will be "magic-show". [/quote]

Oh - then yes, I agree.

[quote]On Mar 27, 2019, Mark Timon wrote:
I remember that Tamariz in one of his books says; That all magic is mentalism, because if you can bend forks , move objects with the power of the mind, make predictions, you could apply the same power to link rings, move card across. etc.. it is all about presentation. [/quote]

With all due respect to Tamariz, I also disagree with this. Spiderman can't fly. Superman can't shoot webs. Just because someone can cause metal to bend with the power of their mind (Which, I would say, is frequently a magic trick and not mentalism anyway) does not mean they can phase one piece of metal through another. They're not the same power on display. Telekinesis/psychokinesis isn't teleportation, regardless of presentation.

Magic can get away with 'explanations' that are far more fantastical than mentalism can. The reason for this is that an audience to a magic show has agreed, by going to a magic show, to participate in a shared, alternate reality for a time. "We know this isn't real, we'll play along while you do your show."

In my personal opinion, it's not mentalism if the audience is thinking like that. Mentalism has to feel real. Not an alternate reality, but previously-unknown aspects of -this- reality. Whether the supposed power on display is supernatural like psychic abilities, or science-based like deducing information from observable information, it must feel like that's what the performer is actually doing.

That theatrical approach is the difference between magic and mentalism and they can't be mixed. If they are mixed, they default to being a magic show.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 27, 2019 08:51AM)
[quote]On Mar 27, 2019, Mark Timon wrote:
I remember that Tamariz in one of his books says; That all magic is mentalism, because if you can bend forks , move objects with the power of the mind, make predictions, you could apply the same power to link rings, move card across. etc.. it is all about presentation. [/quote]


Here is the problem with this - it is all from a magician's perspective. You reference a magician, a magician's thinking on a subject he believes to be magic.

It is the same with this forum - it is all magician's talking from magician's perspective. Of course, they will only see mentalism as magic and no different. This is why it is so hard to have a legitimate discussion on so many related topics is because the typical thinking is very heavily skewed because of this.

Have the same discussions from most of the topics in this forum with mentalist's that do not come from magic or the magic perspective and you get entirely different discussions and outcomes. It's amazing.

Magic "self-claims" whatever it wants. It takes other legitimate disciplines and finds a way to make them "magic" and them simply claims it as magic. Memory is one great example. There are legitimate memory experts. There are legitimate memory competitions with professionals and amateurs who have committed to the art and science of memory work. They have put in the effort to excel in this skill. Yet magic finds a way through tricks, gimmicks, and it's own type of magic short-cuts to give the "illusion" of doing memory work. So instantly TO THE MAGIC COMMUNITY, memory is part of the magic arts. It's not. What is being accepted by the magic community is it's take, it's version of what looks like memory work via tricks and magic-based techniques.

If you talk to anyone from the memory community, they definitely do not see memory as anything to do with magic - period.

Same for hypnosis. Many here consider hypnosis part of the magical arts. Again, it is not. It is its own art and science with thousands committed to the profession. Ask them and they will instantly tell you it has nothing to do with magic and most despise the way the magic community diminished the science of hypnosis and the effect it has on the hypnosis community. Yet if you go into a book store to seek information on hypnosis, it is either in the Self-Help section or the Magic section. Again, what the magic community has done is taken something that resembles real hypnosis and created "magic-hypnosis" or "hypnosis for magicians" which in reality is nothing close to actual hypnosis, yet magicians believe otherwise from their default "magicians" perspective.

Perhaps some longtime respected works of magic such as Tarbel, Anneman or Corrinda mentions or includes memory, hypnosis, or mentalism and walla - it's now part of the magical arts. Everything from this point on is flawed understading and perspectives heavily slanted by magician's perspecives and mentalities.

It is for this exact reason it has been so hard to truly discuss any real mentalism here over the last years. All Psi is all but gone from mentalism here today because it's not needed or required for today's magic mentalism.

I guess no one wants to hear it and of course, certainly won't admit it, (and I'm the bad guy for addressing it to a room full of magicians) but most here claiming to be "mentalists" coming from these magic backgrounds and perspectives are simply magicians doing mental magic. I guess this won't sit well with many but whether you choose to accept it or not, whether you agree or not, it is the reality.

Also to Mark's comment, audiences are only who we perform for and are not always the true indicator of what we do and how we are received and perceived. Unless you perform in theaters where the audience purchases tickets to see you perform (which most of today's "mentalists" do not, they perform at venues and events where the audience is not paying to see you) the level of success in what we do is determined by the person booking and paying you. Their perception and understanding is often different from the audience who is simply the end user. Often these audiences have no expectations and really don't know what they will be seeing.

For example, we have booked 14 mentalism shows in the last 9 days for 4 different mentalists (myself and 3 others). 8 out of the 14 calls specifically stated: "we do not want a magician, we want a mentalist." They DO see them as different. In many cases, they see mentalists as real with a completely different set of expectations than that of magic. Now we know that after they have booked us they start talking and saying things like "we have just booked a great mind reader (or mentalist) who will be able to read our minds and tells us things about ourselves...it will be really different...) They are setting a very specific and different type of expectation than magic. So guests and audience members that hear this will have a much different expectation than from a magician. Those that do not hear about it, will learn of this once at the performance and even with skepticism, their perception and approach will be much different than magic.

To see the true difference between mentalism and magic you need look no further than the business aspects and side of mentalism, as you will quickly see there is a difference in expectation and what one is truly interested in and paying for.

A while back many here used to be very interested in these aspects of mentalism - how it differs from magic and how that can be understood and utilized to their advantage. They were interested in learning the foundations of mentalism and the foundational differences. They wanted to separate themselves from magic. That is not here anymore and the accepted norm is now mental magic which the magic community now calls and self-proclaims as "mentalism."

There used to be such good discussions here on the art of mentalism and the true interest in trying to understand the differences. Today mentalism here is simply free for the taking by magicians, readers, and anyone else wanting to use it.
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Mar 27, 2019 10:49AM)
I've been here for almost 17 years and the nature and level of discourse seems pretty much the same as it has always been.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 27, 2019 12:27PM)
[quote]On Mar 27, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
Today mentalism here is simply free for the taking by magicians, readers, and anyone else wanting to use it. [/quote]

I appreciate your input.

I'm not an apologist, but the appropriation of mentalism, hypnosis and memory-work isn't necessarily done out of selfishness or ignorance.
The esoteric arts have significantly more cache and innate hipness than "tricks". It's only natural for a clout-obsessed society to gravitate towards the cool and edgy.
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Mar 27, 2019 01:34PM)
It is true, this discussion I follow since many years, and we revolve always around the same point... it is tiring. I agree absolutely with the statements and observations made by Mindpro and WitchDocChris - although a big part of my work is in theaters. And I have an heavy and longtime magic background. So, I know and understand both "worlds". Still, I see (and feel and experience every day!) clearly the huge differences between magic (shows) and mentalism (shows), taking in particular also the perspective of recipients into account.

As much as I still love (good) magic, knowing how much I learned doing it on a technical level, still benefiting from it, today I do not mix anymore. But at the same time I am telling my audience (in long theater shows) about what I was doing in the past; it is no secret to them. Even sometimes I will show them a "magic trick" I learned long time ago, just to give my audience a lighthearted break. It (I am...) is authentic at least and doesn't disturb the perception I am striving for. Jan
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 27, 2019 01:52PM)
[quote]On Mar 27, 2019, JanForster wrote:
I have an heavy and longtime magic background. So, I know and understand both "worlds". Still, I see (and feel and experience every day!) clearly the huge differences between magic (shows) and mentalism (shows), taking in particular also the perspective of recipients into account. [/quote]


I agree. And since most here are magicians, this should be the actual goal of anyone truly interested in performing mentalism. However, for most, they would rather argue about it, and find other like-minded opinions sharers, and disregard the actual issue. Well said Jan.
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Mar 27, 2019 02:16PM)
[quote]On Mar 27, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Mar 27, 2019, JanForster wrote:
I have an heavy and longtime magic background. So, I know and understand both "worlds". Still, I see (and feel and experience every day!) clearly the huge differences between magic (shows) and mentalism (shows), taking in particular also the perspective of recipients into account. [/quote]


I agree. And since most here are magicians, this should be the actual goal of anyone truly interested in performing mentalism. However, for most, they would rather argue about it, and find other like-minded opinions sharers, and disregard the actual issue. Well said Jan. [/quote]

Great posts by Jan and Mindpro!
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 27, 2019 11:50PM)
How is it that a person can misspell the surnames Tarbell, Annemann, and Corinda and all in the same sentence? If you're going to invoke their names, one would think that it's common courtesy and respect to at least spell them properly.

This argument goes nowhere - always has, always will. Why it bothers some so terribly about what others are doing is amusing to say the least. This is the [b]MAGIC[/b] Café. Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results each time is the very definition of insanity. Those that feel so strongly in their opinions and labels about what others are doing should go set up some elitist forum somewhere else and be all smug about it.

Not saying I agree or disagree with any one viewpoint that's been expressed here, just that the argument is tiresome, pointless, and a waste of time. And also, insane.
Message: Posted by: Elizabeth Brookes (Mar 28, 2019 03:24AM)
That would be an ecumenical matter...
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 28, 2019 09:59AM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote:
Not saying I agree or disagree with any one viewpoint that's been expressed here, just that the argument is tiresome, pointless, and a waste of time. And also, insane. [/quote]

At least pick a position if you want to pop-in and call everyone boring and crazy.

This is an old, long thread with quite a few interesting nuggets and a fair bit of regurgitation.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 28, 2019 10:08AM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, Elizabeth Brookes wrote:
That would be an ecumenical matter... [/quote]

QFT
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 28, 2019 02:12PM)
A Question:

How should one present OOTW? Fantastic effect that straddles the line between magic and mentalism.
Neither discipline can claim ownership; it's defined by its context.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 28, 2019 02:15PM)
Funnily enough, if I'm using playing cards it's the one thing I don't explain with any process whatsoever... Just introduce the back story of Churchill... And I'd not do any other card based thing before or after... The only change I make to it is just to include two people rather than one. Mother than that... Zilch...
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 28, 2019 02:54PM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote:
Not saying I agree or disagree with any one viewpoint that's been expressed here, just that the argument is tiresome, pointless, and a waste of time. And also, insane. [/quote]

At least pick a position if you want to pop-in and call everyone boring and crazy.

This is an old, long thread with quite a few interesting nuggets and a fair bit of regurgitation. [/quote]

Ok...let me think for a moment...missionary? :kermit:

Fair enough. But I think my position has already been made clear on more than a few occasions here on the Café and in my published work. And it's not as though this topic hasn't been beat to death on these forums for almost 20 years now, right? My position is simply that audiences do not care one iota about your terminology or silly labels. They don't care or waste their time thinking about such things, because believe it or not, they have far more important things in their lives to think about. So many people here talk about Mentalism like it's some mystical sacred cow that only a scant few (like Drunken Master Bob) can do "properly" (without it being "mental magic") and that it's not about "entertainment". Lost sheep looking for their next shepherd.

Well I guess they're right in one sense, it's not about "entertainment" - it's about sleeping. Yes, that's it - sleeping. Whenever you need to get a good sleep in rather quickly (I personally have difficulty falling asleep), go see your average Mentalist [b]not entertaining[/b] somewhere. Guaranteed to be out like a light in ten minutes or less.

(Please note: I'm not addressing you specifically with this commentary Mr. Salk )

So please enlightenment me. I've only been in this art as a steadfast and 100% dedicated student/performer/teacher/dealer/creator for what is it now...I'm 45 this year, started at 6...ah, yes - got it. 39 years! If it's "not about entertainment", and yet you're using trickery, then what is it about exactly? An educational show? What are you going to edu-ma-cate me about? Have you actually got special powers of the mind? You? I'm sorry, but I can already roughly see the intelligence quotient floating above your head and it's screaming out to me that you don't have any special mind powers. If this isn't about entertainment then why the eff am I here? Oh...I see....There's these cards, mmmm okkk..bla bla bla....psychic research testing....bla bla bla...Duke University....bla bla bla ....Oh, I'm sorry. I just woke up and missed most of the show. Last thing I remember was some drivel about some Dr. Rhinoceros at Puke University and what not. Unfortunately, it just wasn't interesting and went on for far too long and I wanted to see some mind reading and instead you started by giving me a long and self-indulgent speech. Did I miss anything good?

It seems as though every average Mentalist has to do the same darn things in the same darn way with the same darn patter themes and drivel. It's like every person who is "into" Steampunk has to wear the obligatory goggles on their hat to signify that this is who they are and that this is what they're "into". And somehow, this makes them unique. I'm sorry but this nonsense is a bunch of bull-fudgie - and I can prove it.

Do I really need to remind you who the best Mentalist in the world is at current? DERREN. BROWN.

Do you honestly believe that his sold-out theaters are due to the fact that he is "not entertaining"? That is absolute nonsense. The man is a brilliant performer beyond words. Remember the routine with his shoe hidden in one of three shoe boxes? My goodness. We all know how it was done, but that's beyond the point. That silly little song he would play and the little dance - the whole thing. Superb. There's simply no other word for it. He makes me feel like a kid when I watch his show - not because I'm fooled (because I'm not), but because it is simply such wonderful fun and he is so good at what he does. Please take the misguided opinion that it is [b]not about entertainment[/b] to Derren and see if he agrees. I dare you. Sure, it's about a variety of things, but the heart of it all is still show biz - and that means entertainment. He openly tells his audience that he is also a Magician. Oh noes!!! The Horror!!! Hahaha.

This is what it's all about people - show biz. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter so much what it is that you're doing and what you call it. I couldn't care less and neither do audiences. Make them feel something - give them the stars, make them smile, make them laugh, touch their hearts, give them your all with your uttermost passion and soul on a platter, anything - anything to let them escape from the boring and drudgery doldrum that we call "everyday life". And be sure that you do what you do better than anyone else in this world. Give them a truly magnificent spectacle to remember. Do that... and they will love you and remember you no matter what you do or whatever you want to call it.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 28, 2019 03:32PM)
Now that is an [i]excellent[/i] position (not missionary; it lacks entertainment value).
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 28, 2019 03:34PM)
I'm re-reading annemann's mental club act tonight...

"... I am here as an entertainer playing the part of a thought reader and psychic. You alone are to be sole judges as to the source of my power."

Thought it was interesting...
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 28, 2019 03:36PM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, IAIN wrote:
Funnily enough, if I'm using playing cards it's the one thing I don't explain with any process whatsoever... Just introduce the back story of Churchill... And I'd not do any other card based thing before or after... The only change I make to it is just to include two people rather than one. Mother than that... Zilch... [/quote]

I like the Churchill intro as well. Adds a tone of respectability.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 28, 2019 03:51PM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Now that is an [i]excellent[/i] position (not missionary; it lacks entertainment value). [/quote]

Thanks! I'm in complete agreement regarding the "position". I thought it better to play that one on the side of caution and not be too provocative. I couldn't help myself though - the joke was too ripe. Thanks for not taking offense. :)

BTW...remember the routine Derren did with the buttons and the woman smacking him very hard and repeatedly in the face? Tell me that wasn't one of the most craziest cool and memorable presentations ever. Am I right? This is the kind of stuff that vividly lives on in people's memories forever. Truly wonderful.

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure how he did that one. I mean, I'm pretty positive I know...but I don't know with 100% certainty. Either way, it was terribly funny, but also completely intriguing and shocking all at the same time. Frankly, I'm quite happy that I don't know for certain and I don't actually care to know.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 28, 2019 04:37PM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, IAIN wrote:
I'm re-reading annemann's mental club act tonight...

"... I am here as an entertainer playing the part of a thought reader and psychic. You alone are to be sole judges as to the source of my power."

Thought it was interesting... [/quote]

Yeah..I like that too Iain. It's honest and fun. I'd forgotten all about that angle. I often wonder at how many things are just floating around somewhere in my brain that I have long forgotten about. You ever have that cool experience where, for no reason whatsoever, an obscure effect you used to think about or perform a decade or two earlier - or maybe even one from your teenage years - suddenly "pops" into your mind and you find yourself thinking "My goodness! How could I have completely forgotten about that thing... and why did I ever stop doing it?" It's a nifty feeling.

Always have love for Annemann. The man had no shame whatsoever in doing a book test in conjunction with a pack of playing cards on occasion. I respect that.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 28, 2019 04:45PM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, IAIN wrote:
Funnily enough, if I'm using playing cards it's the one thing I don't explain with any process whatsoever... Just introduce the back story of Churchill... And I'd not do any other card based thing before or after... The only change I make to it is just to include two people rather than one. Mother than that... Zilch... [/quote]

I like the Churchill intro as well. Adds a tone of respectability. [/quote]

I once ended up on a date with the woman who ran an art department or similar that was linked with war rooms... I told her about Paul curry and Churchill and asked her if she'd like to experience what Churchill did... I knew the bar had a deck of cards amongst some old board games so borrowed them, did the lennart green "thing" and did it at out table..

We are now married...
















Not really.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 28, 2019 04:57PM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, IAIN wrote:
Mother than that... Zilch... [/quote]

Freudian slip? :)
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 28, 2019 05:01PM)
I've got the Freudian spellchecker app running, so you say one thing but mean your mother...
Message: Posted by: Stunninger (Mar 29, 2019 08:51AM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote:

Do I really need to remind you who the best Mentalist in the world is at current? DERREN. BROWN.

Do you honestly believe that his sold-out theaters are due to the fact that he is "not entertaining"? That is absolute nonsense. The man is a brilliant performer beyond words. [/quote]

Very well said, Sudo.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 29, 2019 11:14AM)
This hearkens to the ageless debate about sellouts. Bands like U2 and Green Day traded their angry insightful-rebellion for Pop and Cash.
Then the old fans on the couch are miffed that they "Ain't doing it right".
Message: Posted by: John C (Mar 29, 2019 11:19AM)
I feel vindicated.

And I often get harrased by saying "I just want the audience to have fun!"
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 29, 2019 12:14PM)
"I just want the audience to have fun!"
~ Maroon 5
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 29, 2019 01:21PM)
That's what show biz is all about: fun. This doesn't mean that everything one does has to be humorous. Or serious, or thought-provoking. It can be all of those things - and more. A good show has texture, and you just don't see too much of that in many performers shows. Moreover, you don't see a lot of personality either. It's as though they've forgotten that it is equally about the performer and not just the material. This is one of the chief reasons why Derren's shows are so fabulous. He's a unique individual (we all are) who has figured out how to express his personal thoughts and interests about a variety of topics through the medium he has chosen to express himself with. Max Maven is another who can equally talk about a wide range of fascinating topics and keep you riveted without even doing anything.

I'm reminded of a Mary J. Blige concert I went to with a girlfriend back in the early 2000's. She'd gotten two free comp tickets and wanted me to go with her. Problem was, I don't like that genre of music at all - it just doesn't do anything for me whatsoever. Of course, I didn't tell her that, but truth be told, I knew I was going to absolutely hate every minute of it.

Well...it was actually a fantastic show! From the moment the woman hit the stage, she gave it her all. And man, it was fantastic. In between songs she'd talk to the audience a little about her life and the influences that made up her music and what the next song was all about etc, etc - but in a way that was engaging and made you realize that you had more in common with this person than you thought you ever could have. Some songs were sad, some were really energetic and lively, and others were really deep and soulful. And to my amazement, it didn't take me too long before I was really enjoying myself and having a good time. As a performer, I recognized the talent and the passion and energy that she put her into show and the way she treated her audience - and it was special. Sure lots of musicians do this sort of thing, but you can always tell when they're just "going through the motions". This woman wasn't doing that. She was deeply invested in what she was doing and genuinely connecting with her audience and putting her entire heart and soul into her work.

I don't believe that there's any "right" or "wrong" way to do "Mentalism". I do believe however, you should be consistent in your themes. Naturally, if your show is mostly about things pertaining to the mind and strange phenomenon, it wouldn't make sense to suddenly decide to show a top hat empty and then produce a rabbit from it. But aside from that, I think "anything goes" as long as it is consistent with your character and interests. The key to it all is [i]you[/i]. Win the hearts and minds of your audience with your personality, and you can do whatever you want. Don't be afraid to reveal yourself. You are just as equally important (if not more so) than the the actual things you are doing.

Give your audiences a reason to adore [i]you[/i] - and don't forget to love them back. After all, you have [i]nothing[/i] without them.
Message: Posted by: John C (Mar 29, 2019 02:34PM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
"I just want the audience to have fun!"
~ Maroon 5 [/quote]

Cool. I stand in good company?

I don't keep up with the 5.

Now if Lou Reed or Rory Gallagher or my other favorite guitar player said that I'd know.
Message: Posted by: John C (Mar 29, 2019 02:41PM)
Sudo said...
"... it wouldn't make sense to suddenly decide to show a top hat empty and then produce a rabbit from it..."

Unless you first had the spectator write down or on a billet ANY animal! 😂
Message: Posted by: Waters. (Mar 29, 2019 02:43PM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, IAIN wrote:
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, IAIN wrote:
Funnily enough, if I'm using playing cards it's the one thing I don't explain with any process whatsoever... Just introduce the back story of Churchill... And I'd not do any other card based thing before or after... The only change I make to it is just to include two people rather than one. Mother than that... Zilch... [/quote]

I like the Churchill intro as well. Adds a tone of respectability. [/quote]

I once ended up on a date with the woman who ran an art department or similar that was linked with war rooms... I told her about Paul curry and Churchill and asked her if she'd like to experience what Churchill did... I knew the bar had a deck of cards amongst some old board games so borrowed them, did the lennart green "thing" and did it at out table..

We are now married...
















Not really. [/quote]


Super funny
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 29, 2019 03:39PM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote:
I don't believe that there's any "right" or "wrong" way to do "Mentalism". I do believe however, you should be consistent in your themes. Naturally, if your show is mostly about things pertaining to the mind and strange phenomenon, it wouldn't make sense to suddenly decide to show a top hat empty and then produce a rabbit from it. [/quote]

You've crossed the fence. Inconsistency is exactly the issue many mentalists have with magical interludes.
At best it dilutes the strength of the mentalist aspects the show. At worst it poisons the entire pool.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 29, 2019 03:46PM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2019, John C wrote:
Sudo said...
"... it wouldn't make sense to suddenly decide to show a top hat empty and then produce a rabbit from it..."

Unless you first had the spectator write down or on a billet ANY animal! 😂 [/quote]

But what if they wrote down "giraffe" ?!! :rotf:
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 29, 2019 04:16PM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
This hearkens to the ageless debate about sellouts. Bands like U2 and Green Day traded their angry insightful-rebellion for Pop and Cash.
Then the old fans on the couch are miffed that they "Ain't doing it right". [/quote]

Yes, that's a good point. I can personally vouch for that. There's a musical group I've been listening to since the 80's who have been touring and producing albums all the way up until 2017 after their vocalist/songwriter passed away from a brain tumor. Over the years, they matured - as did their sound and musical skills. I heard a lot of old fans bad-mouthing their newer work starting around the mid 90's and it went on right up until the very end. Sad, really, because I appreciated all of their music and saw the progression for what it was.

The old wisdom about the tree comes to mind here: "It is only the old tree who refuses to bend with the winds of change that breaks." In that regard, Derren Brown is the best thing to happen to Mentalism in a very long time. Not everything he does is pure Mentalism either. For example, remember the old stunt of driving the nail into his nose with a hammer? And that shoe box routine he performs that I mentioned earlier comes straight out of standard magic. He simply used a psychological presentation and changed the apparatus to a shoe box. Truly wonderful thinking. That silly little song that he plays in that routine is etched into my head - it's so ridiculous and funny.

Look at the audience's faces. I'm sure they're all thinking [i]"I don't like this - it's too much like mental magic."[/i]

[youtube]CVP3Efymy24[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 29, 2019 05:29PM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
You've crossed the fence. Inconsistency is exactly the issue many mentalists have with magical interludes.
At best it dilutes the strength of the mentalist aspects the show. At worst it poisons the entire pool. [/quote]

I don't believe I have crossed any fence. Again - I'll use the "nail in the nose" routine as an example of what I'm driving at. (Pun intended) That routine is not "Mentalism" per se, neither is walking across broken glass with bare feet. Derren has done both of these - among others. However, they are completely consistent with his character and interests. I'm not really sure where the confusion is coming from because I thought my position was rather clear. I may be misinterpreting your meaning or vice-versa.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with a performer mixing Mentalism and Magic together - if that's what they want to do. Audiences don't really care about these things. You know what they're really looking for? In the words of Jim Morrison: "Something sacred". I don't judge performers based on material choice. I judge them soley based on their abilities to entertain.

These others who moan and complain about those who do mix, do so out of an irrational fear. Their time would be better spent improving their own shows rather than worrying about what everyone else is doing or not doing. A show is a show. Unless one doesn't have a show. In which case, what are they even worried about?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 29, 2019 06:24PM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote:
These others who moan and complain about those who do mix, do so out of an irrational fear. Their time would be better spent improving their own shows rather than worrying about what everyone else is doing or not doing. A show is a show. Unless one doesn't have a show. In which case, what are they even worried about? [/quote]

The difference is that the magical-arts are mystery-based. A bad performance by a band does nothing to hinder that audience's ability to enjoy other shows.
A badly executed or spoiled magic/mentalist performance will absolutely taint their future world-view.
It's like seeing a comic when you know all the punch-lines. It's re-watching The Sixth Sense.
Redundancy just isn't quite as satisfying.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 29, 2019 06:51PM)
I see what you're getting at, but I completely disagree. Again, I have been in this art for 39 years now. During this time, I have performed countless shows in almost every type of venue imaginable - from big theater, to night clubs and bars, corporate boardrooms, street performing and so on and so forth. You name it - I've probably done it.

I've heard things like this on more than a few occasions: [i]"We hired this guy last year and he was terrible. Not only was he not entertaining, but he was late. I'm so glad we hired you for this year's party"[/i] etc, etc. That didn't stop them from taking a chance and hiring me. They could have just as easily hired another Mystery Performer.

My point is, I think some people assume too much. Particularly when it comes down to the public's perception of what it is that we do. In my experience, they simply view us another form of entertainment. Thinking that we actually shape their "world view" is, in my opinion, very pretentious and an idea that's filled with self-deceit and grandiosity. That's not to say that there aren't some people out there who aren't a little lost and maybe hang on our every word and become mesmerized - it does happen. And yes, a bad performance may have that effect on these sorts of folks, but they're rather the exception to the rule. People are far more intelligent than many Mystery Performers give them credit for and one bad performance by another doesn't necessarily ruin it for the rest. Maybe a better way to start changing the public's perceptions of things would be to start treating them as the intelligent and discerning beings that they are.
Message: Posted by: John C (Mar 29, 2019 07:44PM)
I agree with Sudo. I've also experienced this types of reaction from folks that have hired me. They don't necessarily stop altogether having magical entertainment.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 29, 2019 08:12PM)
While we're on this particular subject...I was thinking a little deeper on the matter, and perhaps this may serve to shed a little more light on things.

Look at shows like "America's Got Talent" or "Fool Us." What these shows do - and do well, is to showcase that there are both good performers and bad performers. We've seen good Mystery Performers on these shows and also terrible ones. So have the public. If anything, this only serves to further the point that people do understand that not all performers are equal and that just because one Mystery Performer is terrible, doesn't mean the next guy will be too.

There's been some fabulous Mysteries/Mentalism presented on these shows. But observe the reactions of the judges and audience. They may be moved or bewildered by the performance, but it is more than clear that not one of them has had their "world view" shaken up. What gets them the most, is acts which touch their hearts or those which are not only technically brilliant, but also combined with a strong personality. We see it time and time again on these shows.
Message: Posted by: Stunninger (Mar 30, 2019 09:05AM)
Sudo, you speak wonderful wisdom. Your last two posts, great insights that get to the crux of the matter.

Two of the most amazing and entertaining mentalists I've ever seen are Derren Brown and Banacheck. Watching them perform is a thrilling experience. But I've also seen David Copperfield perform mind reading as part of his show and had the same exact thrilling experience - even saying out loud to myself, "Maybe he really can read minds!" Just for a moment, what he did was so amazing and seemed to real that I wondered if it may be.

All three are obviously monster entertainers at the very top of the game who deliver an incredible entertainment experience. That's what people want. That's why they keep coming back, telling their friends, family, neighbors and co-workers about this amazing experience they had at (Derren's, Banachek's Copperfield's) show. If all three weren't massively effective entertainers, they wouldn't be famous and no one would be talking about them.
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Mar 30, 2019 11:40AM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
It's re-watching The Sixth Sense.
Redundancy just isn't quite as satisfying. [/quote]

I disagree with this.

The first time I watched "The Sixth Sense," I enjoyed being fooled and surprised by the puzzle presented.
The second time, I enjoyed seeing how the puzzle was put together and how it was able to fool and surprise me.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 30, 2019 03:53PM)
That strengthens the point. There may be secondary levels of entertainment or showmanship available, and even interesting. But spoiled is spoiled. Unfortunately the overarching secret to mentalism is that it's actually just magic-tricks. You can't put the genie back.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 30, 2019 08:56PM)
The genie has been out of the bottle for ages now. I think it absurd that anyone in today's world would try to actually convince the public that what they're doing is real. One wonders about the motives of someone who feels they must be perceived as genuinely possessing powers of the mind that others don't.

This is yet another reason for Derren Brown's success; he's honest with his audiences and doesn't try to insult their intelligence. Audiences know there's a trick to it all, but this doesn't prevent them from marveling at what he does or detract from their enjoyment of his show. I strongly believe that people do like to be fooled - and especially when done in an artful way. The human mind is naturally hardwired to be inquisitive and likes to puzzle over how things work. Many people feel a sense of accomplishment if they think they've figured out how something works, regardless of whether their conclusion is actually correct. No matter how well your show is presented, it will always be an open invitation to an intellectual challenge for most people (to one degree or another) whether the performer desires it or not.

Realistically, the best that we can do is to be as [b]entertaining[/b] and believable as possible, and to place the emphasis where it truly belongs: on the personality of the performer - not the material itself.

Don't forget that the dichotomy of the situation is that while the adult knows it isn't [i]real[/i], the child inside all of us desperately wants to believe that it is. This is the reason why we must strive to make things as believable as possible.
Message: Posted by: Max Hazy (Mar 31, 2019 11:32AM)
There are some great points made here in this topic by so many people. I honestly don't understand how this subject can keep going for so long.

The late Bob Cassidy was probably the most fierce to advocate about not mixing magic with mentalism. If you mix them, mentalism will turn into mental magic thanks to how it will be perceived in the context of the show. Yet Bob himself published in his "Art of Mentalism Vol 2" the card through window. In his own words:

[quote]It is almost heresy to include a blatantly magical effect in a book of mentalism. But I have an excuse for this one. It falls into the miracle class and has created quite a reputation for me in some of the seedier taverns and dives in which I’ve occasionally had to busk for a living.
Also, an occasional offstage magic trick serves to relieve any twinges of guilt I may get from overplaying the mindreader role.
Besides, its fun. [/quote]

Let's ponder... how can the most fierce mentalist to advocate about not mixing magic and mentalism publish that? It's simple... as you can see, even with a blatant "magic trick" Bob was careful about how it was perceived, making it fall into the "miracle class". He was cautious to not offer "puzzles" hard to be solved but to create experiences that could be perceived as something beyond that, even if doing "magic trick". He was detailed to logical disconnects to not leaving space for trickery in their minds.

It's clear, to me at least... that the concern of the matter is HOW IT IS PERCEIVED. That's the context he was worried about that a lot of people don't get about this subject. Just because you can, that doesn't mean you should... unless you actually WANT it to be perceived as a trick. Can a lesbian prostitute be a gynecologist? Sure! But how would she be perceived professionally? I don't think it's hard to see how context can play a major role in perception.

Doing both things is one thing... Mixing both things is another thing entirely. If you can't separate it in context... or not... it will have an impact in perception. That's it.

Max
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 31, 2019 12:38PM)
I typically don't like rap or country music. Perhaps it's the [i]context[/i] of the lyrics.

But I know it's still music - and so does everyone else. Occasionally, some nutter tries to convince us all that it's actually [i]divinely-inspired[/i] by God himself - or even [i]Astronomy[/i], but reasonable folks know better.

What is strange, however, is when rap and metal are fused together. Some of that, I like - despite the fact that I generally despise rap music.

One thing is certain though: no matter the genre, good music is good music.
Message: Posted by: Max Hazy (Mar 31, 2019 02:11PM)
Completely agree Sudo! In our case, good entertainment is good entertainment, despite the nuances surrounding it.

PS: I totally get you... I'm a rock-metal guy, though I can't help but appreciate those well done melodic songs for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9I01iNFcL4

Maybe we can be called eclectic after all.

Cheers,

Max
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 31, 2019 02:32PM)
Right on, Max. :)

Cheers back at ya!
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 31, 2019 02:37PM)
Remember Metallica and public enemy doing Bring the Noise?
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 31, 2019 02:40PM)
[quote]On Mar 31, 2019, IAIN wrote:
Remember Metallica and public enemy doing Bring the Noise? [/quote]

I think you mean [i]Anthrax[/i] and Public Enemy...yeah? That's a good'er. Same with Run DMC and Aerosmith's "Walk this Way"...though Aerosmith's not quite exactly "heavy" metal. Still awesome nonetheless though.

I do like old-school rap. But then, I would...being 44 and all. :)
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 31, 2019 02:48PM)
Aaaaahh yeah...

I remember buying the first de la soul album on cassette...
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 31, 2019 02:51PM)
You too? Hahaha. Oh man...the memories. Good times.

Um....Sir Mix-a-Lot? Eric B and Rakim? What about straight-up DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince? ;)

[i]There's no need to argue; parents just don't understand.[/i]
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 31, 2019 02:58PM)
Digital underground...early public enemy, and ice-T for me... then tribe called quest, q-tip's solo stuff every now and again...but more modern day, I really rate a guy called Edan...very smart lyrics...

erik b sampled one of my favourite funk tracks "you know you got soul"...
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 31, 2019 03:09PM)
Ok...last music post. We can put the debate of this thread aside for a moment and let's all:

[youtube]_azDENy6FD0[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: reese (Mar 31, 2019 09:51PM)
Can you mix magic & mentalism? No. Can I mix magic & mentalism ? Yes. But that's me.
Message: Posted by: JassTan (Apr 2, 2019 03:58AM)
I just got into magic but the reason I got into it because of a mentalism effect someone showed me. so for me they can be the same
Message: Posted by: NotThatLarson (Apr 2, 2019 04:09AM)
I still find it amazing this discussion still going on...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Apr 2, 2019 05:06AM)
[quote]On Apr 2, 2019, NotThatLarson wrote:
I still find it amazing this discussion still going on... [/quote]
Thanks for sharing...

I guess a different question is, why would anyone want to mix the two? Why isn't the magic or mentalism enough on its own?
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Apr 2, 2019 02:59PM)
[quote]On Apr 2, 2019, IAIN wrote:
...
I guess a different question is, why would anyone want to mix the two? Why isn't the magic or mentalism enough on its own? [/quote]

Exactly, and we all know the answer, or at least the most common answer. Why [i] would [/i] a magician add a "mentalism" trick? Why [i] would [/i] a mentalist add a "magic" trick? Obviously because there is something missing in their performance.

"Yes, yes, I can turn one sponge ball into 50 sponge balls but I want to prove I can read their mind too!"
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Apr 2, 2019 04:22PM)
Yeah, I guess that's an unrealistic extreme to prove a point..

Maybe there's some more valid examples out there...

Maybe not!

Would genuinely like to hear them...

I think when people cite very popular and successful people as examples, the failing is that thos who quote them aren't on the same level and never will be... And 99% of us are included in that, me, you, the rest that talk a good game... We can't do it for many reasons...
Message: Posted by: Woodfield (Apr 2, 2019 06:03PM)
Ok, I'm not going to read 20 pages of this thread.
But my answer is, yes.

Irv Weiner (Mr. Fingers) from Needham, Massachusetts did college shows in the 80's.
His concerts, as he called them, consisted of 1 hour of Sleight of Hand Magic and
1 hour of Mentalism and East Indian Yogi effects.

It was clear by the college paper write-ups of his performances, that he was 100 percent believable

He was a great showman.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Apr 2, 2019 07:12PM)
Well,...

Historically speaking, Magi were capable of all manner of miracles from "raising the dead", to mind-reading - to even being able to take away a man's strength. There was no division going back through history. They were people who were to be greatly respected - and feared. It's only [i]after[/i] the whole spiritualist movement came about that Mentalism became a "thing" - supposedly unto it's own. While it's true that this was the genesis of the big boom, the fact is, there were Magi doing feats of "mind-reading" or demonstrating supposed supernatural "mind powers" much earlier - though not to the same highly defined degree as it is now. They were one and the same. Had there not been the invention of the darn printing press and the inquisition, we Magi could have prevented you "mudbloods" a long time ago and it would have saved us a lot of a grief. You're nothing but a nuisance. ;)

(Kidding on that last statement, of course. But I do actually feel that you're born with the natural predisposition - or not. In which case, it doesn't come as naturally as it does to some others.)
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Apr 3, 2019 02:19PM)
[quote]On Apr 2, 2019, IAIN wrote:
...I think when people cite very popular and successful people as examples, the failing is that thos who quote them aren't on the same level and never will be... And 99% of us are included in that, me, you, the rest that talk a good game... We can't do it for many reasons... [/quote]

Another good point. It's like a child saying he wants to quit school and just become a professional video game player. In fact, let me write out this possible interaction below, then I'll substitute with magic/mentalism words but leave the "adult" responses exactly the same. Then we can see how similar (and similarly silly) it is for amateurs to use successful people as examples.

Child: I can quit school and become a professional video game player
Adult: While you "can" indeed do that, there are multiple reasons why that is not a very good idea.
Child: Well Kuro Takhasomi is a millionaire, so obviously I can do it.
Adult: <Sigh> Dealing with children...

Magician: I can add mentalism effects to my balloon and sponge ball routine.
Adult: While you "can" indeed do that, there are multiple reasons why that is not a very good idea.
Magician: Well, Osterlind does it and even says he doesn't concern himself with the difference so obviously I can do it.
Adult: <Sigh> Dealing with children...
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 3, 2019 06:30PM)
The difference is eventually the child will grow up and become a wiser adult, the magician stays a magician.
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Apr 3, 2019 07:18PM)
[quote]On Apr 3, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
The difference is eventually the child will grow up and become a wiser adult, the magician stays a magician. [/quote]

Ha ha ha ha ha! I realized I left the possibility of jokes of that nature after I read my post.

Yours was way better than any I considered.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 3, 2019 09:22PM)
You set me up, how could I resist?
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Apr 3, 2019 10:20PM)
YES, Sudo, from a historical perspective, this is what has been done forever. Until recent extreme views on MC. It is a free country. You can be many things you shouldn't be. But since this has historically been true, it is hard to argue against it, even if present peccadillos persist.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Apr 4, 2019 12:34AM)
"Peccadillos"...LOL. I'm gonna have to remember that one. Love it.

Despite the historical note I mentioned, I don't advocate either/or. I simply advocate being entertaining no matter what you're doing. Period. I really could care less one way or the other what people are doing or how they want to label it - as long as it's entertaining.

Shortly before his death, an interviewer asked Johnny Cash whether he had a favorite genre of music because he'd influenced people in so many different musical genres and even recorded a cover of a Nine Inch Nails song himself. He thought about it for a moment and replied:

[i]"There's good music and bad music... and I like good music."[/i]

The same thing applies in the Mystery Arts. And before Iain starts projecting his own shortcomings on others again - including those that supposedly "talk a good game" (it's pretty obvious he is aiming at me with that), I have several newspaper articles written about me that prove otherwise. I'm even the front page headline of one of them. The publisher and editor of another had this to say in his article:

[i]"Since that moment in early November, John has been entertaining locals in bars and clubs with his special brand of Magic. He is a gifted entertainer and adds a splash of welcome colour to our community."[/i]

Should he wish to continue with such statements, I'd be more than happy to provide further examples. :)

Some of us can actually do more than just "talk a good game".
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Apr 4, 2019 07:43AM)
"I didn't like magic shows, until I saw yours."

That's an actual quote from an actual audience member attending one of my actual shows . . . which is mostly mentalism, but is book-ended with "conventional" magic effects. Since the theme of the shows is autobiographical, it makes sense to explain how I got interested in magic before I started my exploration of the darker arts. Audiences accept that I can do "tricks" and "real" magic.

Consider Sam Neill's performance as the titular "Merlin" from the 1998 TV mini-series, where he performs both "tricks" and "real" magic, and the other characters are aware he does both.

Magic is what magic does.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Apr 4, 2019 09:42AM)
That's a great compliment to be given Philemon. I've only seen tidbits of your performing, but what I have seen, was quite enjoyable.

Docc Hilford is commonly mentioned as an example of one who manages to mix both to good result, and while that may be the case, there are others too. For example, Borodin has some truly wonderful storytelling pieces that are firmly rooted in both the bizarre and in Mentalism. His book [i]Sheherazade[/i], remains among my favorite books.

It would be nice if those in the "purist" camp would stop associating all Magicians with sponge balls and balloon doggies.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Apr 4, 2019 11:14AM)
Jaks is a great example, and a real influence on me... His fondness for unusual things to use in his presentations...
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Apr 4, 2019 11:24AM)
Yes, Sudo,
pec·ca·dil·lo
/ˌpekəˈdilō/
noun
plural noun: peccadilloes
a small, relatively unimportant offense or sin.

Peccadiloes can become set into a mindset,becoming a part of one's thought. They become what I term a "Pickled Peccadillo" -- a little hard to change.

Dunninger is a great example. Lots of magic and also incredible mentalism. The list could go on. We are spoiled with specialists in this modern age. So I am actually advocating for people to do what really works best for you. It is the audience who decides if your act is great or not, and if they enjoyed it or not. They may or may not be evaluating whether it is pure mentalism or magic, or what the ratio is. But in the end, HOW MUCH THEY ENJOY YOUR ACT, YOU! IS WHAT WILL MATTER. So each of us had to pick our own peccadilloes, hopefully the ones that work best. hehe.
Message: Posted by: Rhu (May 24, 2019 05:04PM)
My two cents..

Is that it comes down to semantics. One cannot be a Magician and a Mentalist because currently (in the English language at least) the two terms are mutually exclusive.

It is possible that one can be considered a Magician that performs mental effects, or a Mentalist that causes magical things to happen.

A Magician draws one's ability from the manipulation of the external, a Mentalist from the internal.

A Gambler can produce the same effects as either but will lay his ability at yet a different door.

At the end of the day they are all deceptive arts.

It just depends at which door one lays the root of one's ability.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (May 24, 2019 05:24PM)
[quote]On May 24, 2019, Rhu wrote:
My two cents..

Is that it comes down to semantics. [/quote]

I juggle three spheres and one disappears. what am I?
Message: Posted by: Rhu (May 24, 2019 05:27PM)
A juggler, possibly a bad juggler?
Message: Posted by: Stunninger (May 25, 2019 07:24AM)
[quote]On May 24, 2019, Rhu wrote:
Possibly a bad juggler? [/quote]

Funny :)
Message: Posted by: jonnyboy (May 25, 2019 09:00AM)
I’ve never weighed in on this topic before, finding it rather tiresome to argue about, but am chiming in here to relate a very recent incident that I believe is illustrative of some of the issues. I was speaking with someone who wanted to book me for a high-end birthday celebration in Newport Beach, a very expensive enclave on California’s coast. I spoke with the host, and asked about the relative makeup of the party goers. She said there would be all adults, except for a few youngsters under 5 years old. I told her that the very young might be a little restless, as I didn’t perform as a magician, and there were not colorful and outsized props that children like. She said, no problem, and that they could keep them entertained elsewhere while I performed as a mentalist for the assemblage. I thought all was well and sent my booking agreement. When I hadn’t heard back in a few days, I contacted her, and she said that they had decided instead to go with someone who would do kid’s magic and mentalism in the same show. I don’t know who they hired, but it is hard for me to think that this person will present hippity hop rabbits, breakaway wand, magic coloring book, and in the same show, perform mentalism in a manner with an appropriate level of believability and mystery that doesn’t appear to just be magic tricks.

This isn’t to say that someone can’t do magic and mentalism. But to be taken seriously as a professional mentalist, do you really want to be doing kid’s magic in the same show, with the same persona? How do you properly establish credibility as either? Go from Silly Billy to Max Maven in the space of the same performance? I think you would, of necessity, be shortchanging at least one of these aspects, and most likely both.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 25, 2019 10:37AM)
[quote]On May 25, 2019, jonnyboy wrote:
I’ve never weighed in on this topic before, finding it rather tiresome to argue about[/quote]

There really isn't an argument or real debate on this. It really is quite simple - mentalists know and get this completely, end of story. Those that see this as an argument, personal preference or some kind of debate are simply magicians attempting to justify their own beliefs and wants.

As you clearly show here, the current landscape often lumps mentalism with magic and as part of magic, which causes great damage and of course greatly discredits actual mentalism. What happened here was a magician (who also does mentalism convinced her it was all the same and sure, quite possible to have magic and mentalism for the kids (while discrediting down the actual art of mentalism in the process, all of course for personal gain, without any regard to the actual industry.) This is just more of the continuation of the trivialization of mentalism at its best.

Sorry to hear of your loss.
Message: Posted by: jonnyboy (May 25, 2019 01:25PM)
Exactly, Mindpro. Not upset about the individual loss loss to me, but rather to what it portends for the future of mentalism. Anything for a buck and lack of respect for the art and other artists, whether that art is being a kid’s magician (and boy, is that an art) or mentalism.
Message: Posted by: Paul V (Jul 19, 2019 09:48AM)
I see the argument from both sides, I feel Magic & Mentalism are different. Mainly in the way they are presented.

I personally use both within the same performance when doing Close Up work, I start with magic and either at the end of my set or later if there’s still time left I’ll present Mentalism. In my personal opinion I agree that Mentalism should be presented properly to keep the mystery but I don’t feel mixing it with magic is a bad thing or discredits it or makes mentalism less believable if done properly. For instance I did a house party a couple of months ago. I started of with some magic, then for the last part I did mentalism.

After finishing my last Magic effect / trick I said “ we all know Magic isn’t real, it’s basically cheating isn’t it?! but it’s fun and I think we can all agree here that its nice and exciting to escape reality for a little while “, “ before I go though, I would like to share something with you all that not even I can explain, and to be honest with you, it doesn’t always work, especially when I’m feeling tired. Let’s all take a deep breath in, what I want you all to do, if you can, is to clear your mind for me ( then proceed to go into the mentalism).

I feel that because I played down the magic ( let’s be honest most Laymen don’t actually believe magicians are super human or gods, especially where I’m from ) when presented the mentalism their expectations and reactions elevated compared to what I’ve done in the past which was just doing one style of entertainment. I probably discredited the magic slightly but during them experiencing the magic they enjoyed it a lot but by no means do they think it’s real, few and far between in my experience.

At the end they thanked me for giving them variety, they enjoyed the magic, they were fooled and finished off by saying “ how you knew what people were thinking or how you knew things ahead of time was completely incredible!”

The point I’m making from my perspective and experience only is, I feel if you set the premise of what it is you’re doing, it will be taken however you want it to be by the people around you and the reason I mix the two is simply because when started to do gigs, I decided I wanted to give people variety and didn’t feel that I should have pick magician or mentalist. I think each to their own but I will honestly say that if you mix both that there needs to be that important shift between the two. I feel most people believe Mentalism is a lot more believable than Magic is and that’s how I present both together.

I’m showing you magic and I’m cheating, but now let’s get serious for a minute for this to work. That’s what I feel I portray when performing

Thanks,
Paul
Message: Posted by: hotjacket (Jul 22, 2019 10:39PM)
My experience is that learning both magic and mentalism tends to send you broke twice as fast :-)

Seriously though, I had to give away magic to a large degree, as my mentalism incorporates a large degree of cold reading ... and I never want to be categorized as someone doing a "trick" (if anyone ever says this, I know I've done a poor job).
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Jul 23, 2019 02:01PM)
[quote]On Jul 19, 2019, Paul V wrote:
I’m showing you magic and I’m cheating, but now let’s get serious for a minute for this to work. That’s what I feel I portray when performing
[/quote]

To be frank, folks are generally polite but not gullible.
Message: Posted by: Paul V (Jul 23, 2019 03:03PM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 2019, Paul V wrote:
I’m showing you magic and I’m cheating, but now let’s get serious for a minute for this to work. That’s what I feel I portray when performing
[/quote]

To be frank, folks are generally polite but not gullible. [/quote]

Exactly my point, if you perform magic alone. Virtually everyone witnessing it will not believe it’s real ( unless they’re a child ). People who witness Mentalism / Mind Reading haven’t got the faintest idea of how it’s accomplished, if it’s real or not. They can have many theories on both but I feel Mentalism is more believable simply because of 2 things, there’s no sleight of hand that’s linked with it in the laymen’s eyes ( with Propless it’s completely undetectable) & with quite a high number of people being obsessed with psychic’s and similar, you could very well be categorised automatically as the real deal in their eyes ( not that I ever claim to be psychic ) I love both, I love variety & ive never had any issues with mixing them together.
Message: Posted by: Lior (Jul 23, 2019 03:33PM)
I have combined magic in of my corporate mentalism show
and ther is no problem at all.
I use the magic to deliver a message about the company
I work for.
If you know how to explain the difference then there is
no problem at all.

You can even combine music and mentalisem or
any other hobby that you have

Lior