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Topic: W.O.M. Marketing on Social Media
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Feb 26, 2017 03:41PM)
Hi,

I've been thinking about using Social Media as a bigger platform for marketing than I have in the past, however, I am not interested in using fb ads or anything like that. The goal is to use fb to create word of mouth marketing and getting people talking about my service as an entertainer.

Does anyone have any recommendations on good books for generating Word of Mouth Marketing, using Social Media?

If you recommend a book, please indicate if you have actually used the information in the book you're recommending and "why/how" it was helpful to you.


Thanks for any suggestions!
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Feb 26, 2017 05:58PM)
"Facebook For Dummies." It has information that is easy to understand. It lets you know what you can do free. It gives good advice.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Feb 26, 2017 09:26PM)
[quote]On Feb 26, 2017, cbguy wrote:
Hi,

I've been thinking about using Social Media as a bigger platform for marketing than I have in the past, however, I am not interested in using fb ads or anything like that. The goal is to use fb to create word of mouth marketing and getting people talking about my service as an entertainer.

Does anyone have any recommendations on good books for generating Word of Mouth Marketing, using Social Media?

If you recommend a book, please indicate if you have actually used the information in the book you're recommending and "why/how" it was helpful to you.


Thanks for any suggestions! [/quote]

Organic reach on FB is dead. You will not generate word of mouth on it.

If you want to get your message out, pay. And pay you should. Their targeting is RIDICULOUS. I mean, do you realize you can select your exact audience within a given distance of your location? Why would you want to stand on a street corner and shout and random passer bys when you can target EXACTLY the people who might be interested in your product?

It's also the most underpriced attention in the world.

Think about this, with the right Facebook ad, the $20-$30 you want to spend on a book could target 1,000+ specifically targeted people in your immediate service area.

Do you want buzz? Or do your business?

-Robert
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 20, 2017 08:29AM)
[quote]On Feb 26, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Organic reach on FB is dead. You will not generate word of mouth on it.[/quote]

Drat. There is that word again. Organic. I always have used the word in association with...well:

Definition of organic
: an organic substance: such as
a : a fertilizer of plant or animal origin
b : a pesticide whose active component is an organic compound or a mixture of organic compounds
c : a food produced by organic farming

Magic seems to use the word liberally in advertising and such. I wonder...if in this case, maybe:

Organic:
a : forming an integral element of a whole : fundamental
incidental music rather than organic parts of the action ó Francis Fergusson
b : having systematic coordination of parts : organized an organic whole
c : having the characteristics of an organism : developing in the manner of a living plant or animal society is organic
many new coinages Ö stem from the normal organic structure of the language ó William Chomsky

: of, relating to, or constituting the law by which a government or organization exists
their nation has written the separation of church and state into its organic law ó Paul Blanshard

OK. Back to our regularly scheduled program...

Doug
Message: Posted by: eatonmagic (Apr 28, 2017 10:09AM)
Robert,

I'm not sure why you would say that organic reach is dead when most of my clients are doing well with it. In fact, That's one of the BESt ways to cultivate your following of qualified prospects and raving fans. They are the ones who will go to bat for you once you run a sweepstakes, contest or encourage them to like, share and comment.

Yes, ads are wonderful, however, most magician's do not know how to target properly nor understand how to split test each campaign in order to show which one is better. Also, they fail to create a properly built landing page when the ad is clicked on thus leading to sh*tty results in conversion.

My suggestion, if you wish to use FB strictly for networking, is to niche down your target audience and find which groups they are hanging out in. Find your commonality in these groups and how you can engage them without being the "annoying pest" but rather, the "welcomed guest". Once they've built trust in you and you have positioned yourself, THEN you can ask the admin about promoting your business or running a special promo offer to that specific group. Make sure to set terms to the promo and include a deadline to take advantage of the offer (scarcity and urgency).

But ONLY wanting to use Facebook for word of mouth is NOT utilizing Facebook's full potential as a terrific marketing tool. Robert IS correct that their ad campaigns are incredible now and, if you know how to do it properly, you can earn a nice return on your investment!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 28, 2017 11:11AM)
I have met only few who know as much about this stuff as Michael. He is on the cutting edge of it for certain.

What he is not saying is that it is what he does. If you want to utilize Facebook he is THE guy to hire.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Apr 28, 2017 02:40PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2017, eatonmagic wrote:
Robert,

I'm not sure why you would say that organic reach is dead when most of my clients are doing well with it. In fact, That's one of the BESt ways to cultivate your following of qualified prospects and raving fans. They are the ones who will go to bat for you once you run a sweepstakes, contest or encourage them to like, share and comment.

Yes, ads are wonderful, however, most magician's do not know how to target properly nor understand how to split test each campaign in order to show which one is better. Also, they fail to create a properly built landing page when the ad is clicked on thus leading to sh*tty results in conversion.

My suggestion, if you wish to use FB strictly for networking, is to niche down your target audience and find which groups they are hanging out in. Find your commonality in these groups and how you can engage them without being the "annoying pest" but rather, the "welcomed guest". Once they've built trust in you and you have positioned yourself, THEN you can ask the admin about promoting your business or running a special promo offer to that specific group. Make sure to set terms to the promo and include a deadline to take advantage of the offer (scarcity and urgency).

But ONLY wanting to use Facebook for word of mouth is NOT utilizing Facebook's full potential as a terrific marketing tool. Robert IS correct that their ad campaigns are incredible now and, if you know how to do it properly, you can earn a nice return on your investment! [/quote]

Because organic reach IS dead. I mean it may still have a trickle left in the tank. But if you want your content to really get out, pay.

As for targeting and A/B testing, there's two really cool websites. One is google. The other is Youtube. Type in how to do AB testinf on FB ads and bingo.
Message: Posted by: eatonmagic (Apr 28, 2017 11:39PM)
Robert,

Maybe you just need a good social media coach. If you're not able to grow your social presence organically, there's something wrong with either your brand, your culture or your content.

Michael
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 28, 2017 11:50PM)
I who state it again. This is what Michael does. And he does it VERY well.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Apr 29, 2017 08:17AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2017, eatonmagic wrote:
Robert,

Maybe you just need a good social media coach. If you're not able to grow your social presence organically, there's something wrong with either your brand, your culture or your content.

Michael [/quote]

Michael,

Okay Michael. You win. Facebook's algorithm is just pretend. The millions of pages who lost 99% of their organic reach when FB started their algorithm are just in need of a good social media coach.

I give. You're right.
Message: Posted by: eatonmagic (Apr 30, 2017 04:38AM)
It's not 99%....more like 95. You get around 5% organic reach. BUT, once your audience ENGAGES (liking, commenting, sharing), that % will grow. This is why content is vital!

And also, are you referring to using an actual business page or personal page. There's a bit of a difference here.

The problem comes in when people do not understand the importance of delivering engaging content. Most only post things about themselves and rarely involve their audiences. It's the same thing as doing a magic trick for yourself in front of the mirror. Of course YOU will love it. But then think about making one subtle change and simply asking your audience what THEY think of it and more importantly, asking for feedback. The moment you do this, you'll get it!

I had a client that owns a nice restaurant and he was averaging about 3 likes and MAYBE one commen per post. His overall post reach was crap. Every post was about these $3 mimosas he was so proud of. I pointed out WHY he wasn't generating revenue off of his Facebook page (there were several reasons actually) but encouraged him to try one post...

I told him to simply post a picture of a question mark and then the following "Hey folks! We're considering adding a new item to our menu. Would you help out and suggest a dish you'd love to see on our menu? Please comment below, like and share so we can hear from your friends as well. Thank you."

The results? That one post hit over 100 likes, 230 comments and over 30 shares! Blew his mind!

He had NO idea that he would ever do that well on such a simple post and it was all because he asked. Lol.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 30, 2017 10:36AM)
I just wish someone would have told us that Michael was THE MAN when it came to this type of thing. Oh wait someone did!

No kidding guys if you're disappointed with Facebook results contact him.

The problem is Facebook is a "me" medium and that is everyone's mentality of how to use it. That way is not nearly as engaging as people think. When you engage and make it about them you see results.

By the way that is how much of successful advertising is done.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 30, 2017 12:25PM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
The problem is Facebook is a "me" medium and that is everyone's mentality of how to use it. [/quote]

This mentality towards facebook is so true, and also happens to be the way many performers approach their entire entertainment business operations as well.
Message: Posted by: Walt D (Apr 30, 2017 01:12PM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2017, eatonmagic wrote:
It's not 99%....more like 95. You get around 5% organic reach. BUT, once your audience ENGAGES (liking, commenting, sharing), that % will grow. This is why content is vital!
... [/quote]

Exactly.

It's worth noting that, because of how Facebook is set up, Likes & Comments will bring your post to people's attention as well--you needn't (and shouldn't) rely on Sharing.

Too many people hear "viral" and think "So and so sends it to their friends, who send it to their friends, etc." but the best results start a lot more subtle than that. 1 person Likes it, their Friends see (in 1 way or another) that they Liked it, 1 of them Likes it, and it goes from there.

So don't focus on something that people will want to spread around--focus on something that people will want to interact with.

Good content with a good (even if minuscule) base of followers will find its way to a good (even if comparatively small) audience--which brings me to next point: don't expect millions, or even thousands.

I think this is why people see viral on Facebook as a rarity, because they're thinking of things that get those numbers. Those are a rarity without plopping down a lot of cash. However, 20-50 new, fresh eyes who find your content via a friend of a friend (of a friend) is not hard at all if you produce something worth seeing.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 30, 2017 02:24PM)
Produce content worth seeing you say? That is just crazy enough to work!
Message: Posted by: Walt D (Apr 30, 2017 02:38PM)
One would think it'd be obvious, but then you take a look at the sort of stuff that people are hoping will go viral...

Inducing interaction is key though. People simply enjoying it and moving on won't do a thing.

If I got a dollar for every "Use the reaction buttons to vote on this stupid question" live video that I've had dropped in front of me over the past few months, I'd be very rich. They aren't worth watching, but they spread like crazy because of all the "Your friend reacted to this video" reports.

So, basically, I suppose "induce interaction" first and "make it good" second.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 30, 2017 02:55PM)
Buyers like to know a little about the sellers and facebook is the perfect place for them to get to know you. So the Ďmeí thing still has to be there to a degree, otherwise you are just a masked man trying to sell your products. The key is to Ďallowí them to buy without the selling. Itís the perfect place to build relationships.

One thing you can do to get more viewing your content is to set your profile to public where everyone can see it and not just your friends. Of course public setting is not for everyone because when set to Public all your posts can be seen by anyone.

To me, Robert is a good example of how to properly use facebook to position yourself as being the expert in your own industry. He doesnít sell, he tells, and Facebook is the perfect place to tell your story.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 30, 2017 04:18PM)
It is entirely possible you missed the point.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 30, 2017 04:40PM)
Danny, what 'point' did I disagree with?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 30, 2017 05:00PM)
I didn't say you disagreed, I said you missed it.
Message: Posted by: Station10 (Apr 30, 2017 06:42PM)
I've noticed a big change over the years on how advertising works. I started back in 1988 at our families B&M store and handled our advertising. First ads in local papers did the best, then people started becoming more mobile and radio advertising was tops. TV advertising became more affordable when you could produce ads that ran on local cable channels but with the influx of 100's of channels than soon got lost in a sea of channel changers.

Direct mailing to a targeted audience was always our top performer. I developed a long past & potential client list that I would send mailings to 3-4 times a year.

When myspace, facebook & twitter started I jumped on that bandwagon. Myspace soon died out and I never had much success with twitter. Facebook seemed to be where it was at.

Today's buzzword is social engaging . . . not advertising. People do not want to be sold anything. They want to be engaged, interacted with and socialed with. They want to feel part of a community. While hard sells still work from time to time in my experience it works best to develop relationships with your followers. Post content that they can comment on. Ask them questions. Have them share their stories. It cannot be all about you, people nowadays want and need to be recognized.

sure by all means promote your shows and services. Highlight your talents but also share noteworthy news, express opinions, share funnies. Hold picture contests. Bring your followers in so they feel as if they are part of the community. If they comment on your post, reply to them. You don't have to reply to every single comment but enough to show that you are responding and appreciating their time spent on your page.

Todays society is a video and image driven group. Their attention span is short. They will not read paragraph after paragraph of words. They want something that they can see or read quickly as they are scrolling through on their cellphone or tablet. You can create longer posts in a blog and share a link and have a quick highlight to catch their attention and draw them in. Pictures and video should be good quality. Posting a blurry out of focus picture does nothing to promote you or our business.

If you get our audience engaging with you then you have much better chance of getting the Word of Mouth marketing that you are looking for.
Message: Posted by: Tim Zager (May 1, 2017 11:29PM)
I haven't seen the OP respond since the question was asked. Here's my .02 on the original question.

>>> Does anyone have any recommendations on good books for generating Word of Mouth Marketing, using Social Media?

Tribes - Seth Godin
I have used the information to build my "tribe" on Snapchat. Godin does not specifically talk about any specific social platform, but does talk about how the internet has removed the barriers of geography and time. Snapchat fits well for me because the people I want to make connections with "live" there.

Outside of books, I recommend Gary Vaynerchuk as an online resource (garyvaynerchuk.com) to learn how to use social media to make connections, rather than sell.

This quote from one of his articles helped me change the way I approach my market...

"You can be as tactical as you want, but you need to understand your marketing purpose first. It is what separates salespeople from brand marketers. Salespeople utilize tactics, brand marketers believe in the religion." ~Gary Vaynerchuk

To put that quote in context, he's referring to the "religion" to mean asking better questions like "What do you want most to happen?" ,"Who do you need to speak to in order to make that happen?", "How is your audience likely to react?"
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2017 09:45AM)
The thing is any sort of marketing is about far more than just being seen.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (May 2, 2017 07:54PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2017, Tim Zager wrote:
I haven't seen the OP respond since the question was asked. Here's my .02 on the original question.

>>> Does anyone have any recommendations on good books for generating Word of Mouth Marketing, using Social Media?

Tribes - Seth Godin
I have used the information to build my "tribe" on Snapchat. Godin does not specifically talk about any specific social platform, but does talk about how the internet has removed the barriers of geography and time. Snapchat fits well for me because the people I want to make connections with "live" there.

Outside of books, I recommend Gary Vaynerchuk as an online resource (garyvaynerchuk.com) to learn how to use social media to make connections, rather than sell.

This quote from one of his articles helped me change the way I approach my market...

"You can be as tactical as you want, but you need to understand your marketing purpose first. It is what separates salespeople from brand marketers. Salespeople utilize tactics, brand marketers believe in the religion." ~Gary Vaynerchuk

To put that quote in context, he's referring to the "religion" to mean asking better questions like "What do you want most to happen?" ,"Who do you need to speak to in order to make that happen?", "How is your audience likely to react?" [/quote]

Funny you bring up Gary Vaynerchuk.

To quote, Gary, "Organic reach is dead. If you want your message out, pay."

Maybe GaryVee should listen to some of the guys here at the Magic Cafť more often. He might be able to buy the Jets sooner.

I'm out. Y'all know where to find me.
Message: Posted by: JoshLondonMagic (May 3, 2017 10:58AM)
"Jab Jab Jab Right Hook" by Gary is probably the best book on social media.
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (May 3, 2017 02:47PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2017, JoshLondonMagic wrote:
"Jab Jab Jab Right Hook" by Gary is probably the best book on social media. [/quote]

Excellent resource. Almost required reading when it came out.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 4, 2017 10:33AM)
Its amazing to me how so many of you only like to tell a portion of the story here. Of course Gary is going to tell you pay is the only way to success, he is a partial owner, investor, interest-bearing consultant and/or advisor to Uber, Birchbox, Snapchat, Facebook, Twitter Yelp, and Tumblr.

He mas MUCH to gain by stating this position.

Lately so much misinformation and misperceived information is trying to be passed off as fact around here.
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (May 4, 2017 11:51AM)
I know, it's ridiculous, isn't it?
Listening to the advice of a known person whose knowledge was sought by those seven companies.
Next thing you know, people will be following the advice of anonymous posters with questionable track records!
Thank goodness there's unbiased people, who have NOTHING to gain, to warn us. :-)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 4, 2017 01:58PM)
I love the way sarcasm passes for wit or even a point.
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (May 4, 2017 05:26PM)
Thank you, Danny. I was uncertain whether the sarcasm would come through. It can be difficult in written word, so I'm happy that it worked.

My point is an important one, so if it's not clear to you, I'm certain that it was to others.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 4, 2017 06:22PM)
Yes my lord your point is always the same Keith. You hate Mindpro. You don't like what he does. It could not be more clear. It is old, it is tired and it is getting to run down the place. Get over it and act like an adult.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (May 4, 2017 06:28PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yes my lord your point is always the same Keith. You hate Mindpro. You don't like what he does. It could not be more clear. It is old, it is tired and it is getting to run down the place. Get over it and act like an adult. [/quote]

Other than you and his coaching clients, does anyone here actually like MindPro? Serious question. I feel bad for derailing the thread but since you already decided to do that by coming to MindPros defense it seems a good time to ask the question.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 4, 2017 06:37PM)
Is it about that? A 4th grade popularity contest?

And just after Walter put up a thread asking for everyone to act like adults LOL.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 4, 2017 07:56PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2017, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On May 4, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yes my lord your point is always the same Keith. You hate Mindpro. You don't like what he does. It could not be more clear. It is old, it is tired and it is getting to run down the place. Get over it and act like an adult. [/quote]

Other than you and his coaching clients, does anyone here actually like MindPro? Serious question. I feel bad for derailing the thread but since you already decided to do that by coming to MindPros defense it seems a good time to ask the question. [/quote]

Thomas,

On another thread I asked people to post questions within a context. I will reply to your question but first I will restate what I understand your mindset to be. Please correct me if I am wrong.

You feel that the only ones who actually like Mindpro are Danny and his clients. This leads me to the conclusion you don't like mindpro.

Now the word "like" is ill defined. How are you referring to liking him? As an individual, businessman, lover, or someother meaning? It's to subjective a word on its own without qualification. I am presuming as an individual.

Now I will qualify my response.

I've not met with mindpro, not spoken beyond written word here on the Cafť. I have purchased his entertainers toolkit to get a better feel for his qualifications and knowledge.

Now my interactions with mindpro have been civil. I have found him to be knowledgeable and passionate about what he does and knows. I also have found he is not afraid to toot his horn or express his opinion. I personally, don't find anything wrong with him tooting his horn or expressing an opinion, as I've yet to see anything to contradict his image portrayed. Additionally, if a consultant/entertainer can't self promote and back it up, they aren't that good to begin with. Some find it off putting. Others cherry pick certain aspects, specifically his webbased business storefront as antiquated and need to be modernized, so therefore he is no good in anything. My retort is the aspects that I've seen attacked are not the ones he claims to have expertise.

In the end, I respect him and like the image I know him as knowledgeable and passionate about the entertainment industry.

With respect to social media and this thread as whole, I have little to offer. I don't believe social media is a valid marketing channel for the b2b segment I work in.
Message: Posted by: Tim Zager (May 4, 2017 09:47PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Its amazing to me how so many of you only like to tell a portion of the story here. Of course Gary is going to tell you pay is the only way to success, he is a partial owner, investor, interest-bearing consultant and/or advisor to Uber, Birchbox, Snapchat, Facebook, Twitter Yelp, and Tumblr.[/quote]

Vaynerchuk NEVER hides the fact he invests in many of these platforms. I can't count the times he states this in his writings and videos. It's also ridiculous to say that Gary tells people that pay is the ONLY way to success. Talk about misinformation!!

[quote]He mas MUCH to gain by stating this position.[/quote]

Sure, if that *IS* his position...and it is not.

[quote]Lately so much misinformation and misperceived information is trying to be passed off as fact around here. [/quote]

Your post is a perfect example of this. Stick to what you know. It's clearly not social media.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 4, 2017 10:03PM)
Well said Tim. Gary is the real deal for sure.

Marketing changes every few years. Not long ago, the post office was your best marketing tool, then the fax machine
(remember those) next the computers, and fancy phones, and now we have social media, etc.

If your competitors are using it then you are probably falling behind if youíre not using it too. Thatís just a fact.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 4, 2017 10:20PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:

If your competitors are using it then you are probably falling behind if youíre not using it too. Thatís just a fact.

Tom [/quote]

This is just really uninformed.

As far as Facebook marketing goes all I can say is good luck. As far as I know it is Elves and magic.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (May 5, 2017 07:37AM)
[quote]On May 4, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On May 4, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:

If your competitors are using it then you are probably falling behind if youíre not using it too. Thatís just a fact.

Tom [/quote]

This is just really uninformed.

As far as Facebook marketing goes all I can say is good luck. As far as I know it is Elves and magic. [/quote]

Why do you feel this is uninformed? I think it's quite accurate.

If you think facebook marketing is elves and magic I think you are the one who is misinformed. Facebook allows you to target your audience to a crazy specific audience.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2017 09:28AM)
2 different statements.

First of your competition is doing something you are not then you are falling behind.

Who is to say what they are doing is right? They may be held back by what they are doing.

Using something based on someone else using it is uninformed. Just because someone else uses is means nothing.

Too often people in our business spend too much time worrying what others are doing. It means very little and it stifles creative development in many cases.

Often we see here when people make the claim "Apple does X". Sure but do they share a business model and me important what IN CONJUNCTION with X are they doing?

Like I said uninformed.

And sorry about adding the joke with the Facebook thing. My bad.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 5, 2017 10:16AM)
Danny do you know anything about facebook?

Have you read the book that we are talking about?

You say, ďUsing something based on someone else using it is uninformed.Ē Really?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2017 11:10AM)
Tom please read carefully and slowly and try to comprehend. I said nothing about Facebook.

So qualify your statements. How many shows have you directly booked due to Facebook?

Do you run a performance based business that you market in any way through Facebook?

And if your are going to quote me please do it correctly. Here is what I said. "Using something based on someone else using it is uninformed. Just because someone else uses is means nothing."
Message: Posted by: thomasR (May 5, 2017 11:29AM)
Tom didn't make a statement he needed to clarify.... He asked you a question, which you did not answer.

And you certainly did say something about facebook, perhaps if you follow your own advice (read carefully and slowly and try to comprehend) you will see what you wrote and be able to answer Toms question.

Oh... And yes I have run an entertainment business that used Facebook ads (to advertise and sell events, not to book shows.)
I also own an online blog, unrelated to performance, that uses facebook ads.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 5, 2017 12:35PM)
Thanks thomasR,

Danny just likes to twist everything I say into something completely different to make me look bad. He thinks that makes him look good. What a stupid way to try and prove your better than the rest here. He hates the world and everybody in it that disagrees with him. He needs help bad. Iím sure that as a kid he was the one that killed all the cats in the neighborhood. Itís sad that he thinks this forum is all about him and mindpro and that it was put here just for them.

But for the record Danny, Iím sure I have booked more shows through facebook than you have. Actually I still do some annual shows for old corporate clients. Not many since retirement but I do like to stay in touch with old friends. I just donít brag about what I do or pretend to be great like you do. Go get you some help Danny and stop following me around.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2017 01:24PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

As far as Facebook marketing goes all I can say is good luck. As far as I know it is Elves and magic. [/quote]

Is THIS the statement I made about Facebook?

And Tom I payer prior to you. They is not following you. Get over yourself.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 5, 2017 01:44PM)
NO you didnít post prior to me, I replied to Timís post about the facebook book,
and you saw it was me and started your usual word scrambling.



Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2017 02:22PM)
Tom you came into this thread after me. Can't dispute facts.

I don't care if you post. I don't care if you answer me. Just please try to keep up with reality.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 5, 2017 02:36PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2017, Tim Zager wrote:
Vaynerchuk NEVER hides the fact he invests in many of these platforms. I can't count the times he states this in his writings and videos.
[quote]He mas MUCH to gain by stating this position.[/quote]

Tim, that is exactly what I said! He often includes this is as examples and when establishing himself and success record. I am only offering this absent information that was not being offered for those unaware. The statement that organic reach is dead and pay is the only way is a limited and opinion statement offered as a blanket fact. It is not. Yes, he has done quite well and does have in an interest in "for pay". Also to clarify that the quote originally offered from Robert as if his, was in fact Gary's. My post wasn't about social media as much as it was offering the proper missing insight some may have unaware of. (However you are right, it is not my forte which I why I refrain from most such threads on the topic.)

So let's review, we had learned 5 things so far:

1. As Danny has said many times interpretation and tone of posts are determined by the reader/recipient. Then of course they twist it to their own benefit rather than for the purpose and intent of the actual topic/thread.

2. Many here still do not have an understanding and concept of Consumer Vs. Professional markets or such blanket information would not be offered as general fact.

3. thomasr doesn't "like" me and seems to be fishing for others to jump on his bandwagon.

4. Keith still clearly has a mono-focused agenda that is transparent to everyone even though he thinks he's being clever.

5. Walter's great efforts seem to be falling on deaf ears.

Carry on...
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (May 5, 2017 05:21PM)
[quote]On May 5, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
So let's review, we had learned 5 things so far:

1. As Danny has said many times interpretation and tone of posts are determined by the reader/recipient. Then of course they twist it to their own benefit rather than for the purpose and intent of the actual topic/thread.

2. Many here still do not have an understanding and concept of Consumer Vs. Professional markets or such blanket information would not be offered as general fact.

3. thomasr doesn't "like" me and seems to be fishing for others to jump on his bandwagon.

4. Keith still clearly has a mono-focused agenda that is transparent to everyone even though he thinks he's being clever.

5. Walter's great efforts seem to be falling on deaf ears.

Carry on... [/quote]

What we didn't learn is...whether any of the discussion in the 2+ months and 45 replies were in any way helpful to the OP, as once again someone starts a thread and vanishes. Aside from the usual meaningless banter that distracts, there was at least a book or two recommended as well as a testimonial for one who performs such services.

I have not used Facebook or social media to any great extent, and it would be interesting to hear more from those who believe they have had success and how they are using it to their advantage. I know Josh London has shared some of his success in the past, but it would be interesting to hear from others, with differing business models.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2017 09:35AM)
But when you have a different business model you are shouted down here. There is one truth and everyone must follow it.

The idea that Facebook is always useful for everyone is absurd. The idea that "Facebook marketing" is a specific thing done a specific way is absurd. Or ANY marketing for that matter.

But it always has to devolve into a stupid measuring contest here. Our perceived insults from long ago must be answered with sarcasm. I am guilty of it myself.

But guys and gals Facebook marketing is not one thing it can is and should be many. The idea that it is "dead" in some aspect and you then cherry pick quotes from unrelated businesses and argue about that is silly beyond words.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 6, 2017 10:15AM)
I agree, much here wanders off to personal beliefs and general business applications and often as offered, presented or quoted by others, not ones own experience. Many of these approaches when applied to entertainment business do not have the same results for a variety of reasons. And they shouldn't. Most that boast these fail to understand. Yet many things that work well for entertainment business do not for conventional businesses.

I've just recently reviewed the last 3 pages of threads in this section and would venture to say that probably 80% or more of all topics, perceptions, and misinformation comes from the lack of understanding the single element of the Consumer Vs. Professional markets and operations. Yet amazingly when this entire topic and concept was presented yet again recently it seems to be completely ignored. Instead people would rather pound their chests for all kinds of claims that rarely directly relate to entertainment business.

If your entertainment business is based on or relies primarily on FB or social media, it tells a lot about your business. Your are not as successful as you could be, likely are leaving money on the table and there is much you don't know you don't know. This is something I prove time and time again with every single person I've ever worked with and have never failed to do so yet.

On another related note I have been hearing for the past few years that many performers have had more difficult, problematic and less than optimal performance bookings than ever before (more than double over even 5 years before), which after careful observation and research I can trace directly to social media and electronic communications. So people here can boast and praise their use of social and electronic media all they want, yet as Danny mentions in his "Failure" thread, they rarely talk about the opposing, bad or negative side.

Yes, Danny, the vast majority of performers choose to cling to the very limiting and only minimally (at best) optimal "default" business model they'v ebeen doing since the beginning.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (May 6, 2017 10:33AM)
Is there a term for the marketing strategy that throws as much stuff against the wall and see what sticks? If so, that's my strategy!

Facebook and social media? Sure, especially if its FREE! I've seen an increase in people contacting me through Facebook but I'm not doing any ads. Coming up high in a Google search is very important, but I don't use ad words. However, I have 4.9 Google rating that I believe helps (also free).

Of course, the best marketing tool I have ever come across is actually doing a show and having business cards ready for the asking. Nothing will top that, no matter what technology comes out.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 6, 2017 10:54AM)
Good point Ken. If it is free and it seems to work for some others, why not give it a try. There is no reason a real business shouldnít try and keep their name out there as much as possible. They say if you build a better mousetrap people will beat a path to your door. Thatís not true at all if they canít find the path. You need signs along the way, and you need more than one.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2017 11:06AM)
[quote]On May 6, 2017, Ken Northridge wrote:

Of course, the best marketing tool I have ever come across is actually doing a show and having business cards ready for the asking. Nothing will top that, no matter what technology comes out. [/quote]

Careful. This is where when I say this I am called names by the usual suspects. But since you're saying it then it makes sense. Thus PROVING my point about childish agendas.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 6, 2017 11:07AM)
[quote]On May 6, 2017, Ken Northridge wrote:
Is there a term for the marketing strategy that throws as much stuff against the wall and see what sticks? If so, that's my strategy!

Facebook and social media? Sure, especially if its FREE! I've seen an increase in people contacting me through Facebook but I'm not doing any ads. Coming up high in a Google search is very important, but I don't use ad words. However, I have 4.9 Google rating that I believe helps (also free).

Of course, the best marketing tool I have ever come across is actually doing a show and having business cards ready for the asking. Nothing will top that, no matter what technology comes out. [/quote]

Ken,

Yes the term is called "shotgun approach"

You mentioned using it because it's free, I am presuming you work consumer markets, and using a b2c marketing framework (Facebook twitter etc to generate business) makes sense, but not all free advertising is or useful. One has to consider the channel used and the relationship to your image and who their end user is. Let me give you an example, for a while The restaurant industry there was a small push to have coop placemats with advertising. The concept was people would look at the adverts and find you. Well, it turned out the ones who used the concept were other restaurants, and realtors. Then locally an adult cabaret decided to pick up those placemats, the marketing efforts of the restaurants and realtors wasn't reaching their ideal customer in that scenario. the idea didn't last long here locally, but at times I see it popping up again in similar ways

The lesson is not all free marketing is good for your business. Someties it's even bad for business because it tells not the right prospect segment or worse you get deadwood who will never buy and just waste your time
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (May 6, 2017 11:36AM)
I too was thinking about how this thread and the one on failure intermingle. One of the biggest failings many of us have is believing what we are doing is successful because we book some shows from the effort, but it is difficult to consider that perhaps we are actually not getting the optimal return on our time and financial investment, are hurting our image or branding by doing certain marketing initiatives or accepting certain shows.

Danny pointed out in this thread that the idea that you should implement a marketing strategy (in this instance Facebook) just because your competitors do so is incorrect thinking, yet his advice was challenged and viewed as him being antagonistic. He stated above that the idea that Facebook is always useful is absurd. Yet how many of us ignore such insights, ignore the input Mindpro shared above, and press on investing time and effort in marketing endeavors because we know others are doing so and claiming success. Is their model the same as ours? Same target audience, price point, buyers?

Walt discussed in a different thread the need for context in our discussions. That is so apparent as one reads through this thread. Advice on Facebook marketing and book recommendations are offered with no specific context as to if it is background knowledge (which of course is helpful) or specific to the needs of the OP, or any of us for that matter. People seem to lump us all together when offering advice, and even across industries. While that is extremely valuable in certain types of discussions, it has a negative effect when discussing specific marketing strategies, such as Orgaic Facebook marketing, which is the essence of this thread. Arguments on both sides (Organic-dead or alive) failed to deal in specifics as to exactly the situations where their implementation was effective and why.

I have read many articles about how one can use Facebook advertising to capture a refined target market of likely buyers of ones product, but this is generally from the perspective of retail products where national exposure is desireable, and on product types one would associate with such advertising. How about specialized entertainment? Do we really wish to have your service viewed by perspective clients alongside retail products or lower end services? Is Scarcity one of the laws of persuasion we leverage, or do we want to be perceived as a commodity? Just because one gets some bookings from a marketing effort does not mean that it was a overall success.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (May 6, 2017 11:42AM)
[quote]On May 6, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On May 6, 2017, Ken Northridge wrote:

Of course, the best marketing tool I have ever come across is actually doing a show and having business cards ready for the asking. Nothing will top that, no matter what technology comes out. [/quote]

Careful. This is where when I say this I am called names by the usual suspects. But since you're saying it then it makes sense. Thus PROVING my point about childish agendas. [/quote]

I totally agree with you Danny... The absolute best marketing is doing the best show possible. Make people remember you... If you're good enough... People will search you out even if they don't remember your Clever website name.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 6, 2017 12:32PM)
I too agree with you guys. Nothing will ever replace doing a great show, creating word of mouth advertising and referrals/recommendations. The results are far better than digital social proof, testimonials, ads, adwords or anything. Nothing has ever dethroned this. The key is doing more with this concept that just sitting back and letting/waiting for it to happen. This is where you need to adapt strategeies, specific of entertainment business, our targets and their ways of perception, psychology and influence to utilize this amazing opportunity.

The problem with doing what "others are all doing" and "trying anything new that comes along as long as its free" is time. It takes time and usually money to learn about, research and attempt to implement these "free" things. The questions needs to be is that "time" best and most well spent? Just like actually experiencing something live and in person and word of mouth advertising will never be replaced, the other thing I can guarantee you is time is something you can not create more of. I challenge anyone to create 25 hours a day or an 8 day week.

Leveraging our time and and what we put our time and efforts into is very important. Plus, word of mouth or a live recommendations never changes. How many changes have been made to just Facebook along in the last 5 years. You have to be invested just to stay a sea level.

Also as many seem to miss, getting bookings will not create a successful business. You will always be chasing more bookings. It is never ending, so methods to attain this can only have the same limited results. No entertainer I have ever heard of has said I used FB or social media and I am now set for life. Time and efforts (not to mention money invested) can be utilized to create far better, long-term and residual results.

As charliecheckers eludes to, all this talk is general business, I rarely see anyone here speak of entertainment business.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 6, 2017 01:22PM)
I donít really see the entertainment business any different from any other business. Any Ďgreatí product sitting on the shelf waiting for the customer to come get it will sell. UNTIL that other product sitting beside it starts flagging everyone saying Iím even better. May not be true at all, but many times the better is left sitting there. Nowadays everybody claims to be the best so there is more than one choice out there. Man is there choices on the internet. It takes a very long time to build a good track record to the point that you can simply return to the same clients over and over. Meantime,the new ones will need selling and the old ones re-sold.

Not to mention, most newcomers donít want to wait a long time so they are constantly selling from the get go, giving the greats even more competition. And if you just sit there, they may just steal your business. It is a constant battle for sure.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2017 01:51PM)
[quote]On May 6, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I donít really see the entertainment business any different from any other business.

Tom [/quote]

Finally we get to the problem.

The idea that every business is the same is absurd. Each business has idiosyncrasies that are unique to that profession.

This is a MAJOR issue in thinking and execution. It causes people to believe Facebook marketing is one thing.

Entertainment business IS different as are all businesses for that matter. Not seeing it causes major problems and major shortcomings in that business.

For that matter every level of your business is going to be different if you're making progress that is. This is why experience in THAT BUSINESS matters so much. Taking knowledge applied and moving forward is the key in any business. But you don't learn the same things from every business or even every level of your journey. What worked 10 years ago may not work, and not because of time but because of who and where you are!

All businesses are different. To not understand this is very costly. Try running a construction business the way you run a performance based business.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 6, 2017 02:31PM)
Of course the products are different, but nah the business end is not that far apart. You simply looking for buyers and yes you may be looking in a different place. But you still out there 'selling' your product.

Major difference is selling a magic show is much easier. In most areas there are not a lot of working magicians out there. Many can and do get business just sitting by the phone. Those who do call already have their mind set that a magician is what theyíre wanting, otherwise they wouldnít be calling. Youíre only job is to convince them they called the right one.

If you are in an area that does have competition and you want to learn about sales and how to sell your business, talk to a salesperson, or the business owner who has real competition on every street conner. There is a reason that little store has been there in the same spot so long, you can probably apply that reason to your business regardless of what you selling. Business is about providing your customer with what they want, period.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2017 02:42PM)
Ok if that is your thinking then cool.

Personally it is not how I would approach any business but if that is your way and it works for you then good on you.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 6, 2017 02:45PM)
[quote]On May 6, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On May 6, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I donít really see the entertainment business any different from any other business.

Tom [/quote]

Finally we get to the problem.

The idea that every business is the same is absurd.

This is why experience in THAT BUSINESS matters so much. [/quote]



FINALLY!!!!

And THAT is what this section is for - matters pertaining specifically to entertainment business.

You can try forever to pound your square peg of conventional business into the round hole of entertainment business and it will never happen. Sure, there may be some conventional aspects that may be adapted to entertainment business - but talk about THAT, explain the differences, create the understanding, not refer to then in general terms. That helps nothing or no one.

This is exactly the root of the problem here and Tom's differing views and often lack of understanding from Myself, Danny & others that operate form the entertainment industry perspectives. This is also what Danny refers to when he regularly points our how Tom is not an entertainer, does not operate an entertainment business and why many of his regular general business perspectives are so far removed from those operating in this industry on a regular or daily basis.

SO much is reveled here that should be considered and understood by many to gain the most out of Tricky Business and who truly want to learn about entertainment business. As I said before, this is exactly why I was invited to be here. Those who fail to recognize and understand these differences need to use this as a great starting point.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 6, 2017 02:53PM)
Tom,

Reading what you wrote, I feel you may be confusing strategies, functions, and principles with techniques.

Yes there are few overall styles of structure, operation, marketing, and finance. Those are the functions and principles, but the techniques used to achieve those strategies will vary. It is the same with magic, principles are few but methods are many. And just like with magic not every method is best for a situation.

I will give you a specific example using Facebook ads. A mentalist/hypnotist does "adult" based comedy, he won't use the same methods with Facebook as a children's show magician. Yet both use Facebook. The principle of targeting consumers using a place where consumers congregate is the same, but how they attack and who they attack will be different.

Also, not every strategy works for the same. I mentioned in b2b entertainment social media is less important because buyers are not there for business. They are for consumer entertainers. So the strategies they use will be different.

Additionally, with finances. Service companies have low cost of goods sold and high selling and general administrative costs. Whereas manufactures have the opposite. Both use the same income statement but have drastically different methods for booking profits. Banks are even more extreme. All companies have earnings before taxes interest depreciation and amortization except for lending companies. Because their principles of accounting are the same but methodology is completely different based on how they do business. They lend money they borrow- therefore their revenue would be the ebitda of an operating company top line can never be the same as free cash flow or even a proxy to to it as is the case with ebitda. .
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 6, 2017 03:13PM)
Like I said, business is about providing your customer with what they want, period. And if it requires going down a different path to do that, ok, but I still say good general/common business sense with be a great help getting there.

I have no problem disagreeing. Not asking anyone to agree with me either. Just my experience with looking back and thinking, in the end 'business is business' and you do what you have to do to do the business.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2017 03:28PM)
That is a completely meaningless generalization.

It is the equivalent of saying "life is just life and you do what you have to in order to live it" when someone asks for a diet and exercise program.

Or claiming that the way birds fly is just do what the have to in order to stay in the air. Well different birds have vastly different methods for doing so.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 6, 2017 03:36PM)
[quote]On May 6, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Like I said, business is about providing your customer with what they want, period. [quote]

There you go again making assumptions and generalizations and trying to pass it off as fact. It's not, it your opinion only.

Most interested in buying entertainment DO NOT know what they want or are looking for, don't know how to shop for entertainment or even how to approach the idea of it. They may THINK they know what they THINK they want but 75% of the time or more (depending on markets) they really have no clue. You are incorrect. Again square peg, round hole.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 6, 2017 05:29PM)
Mindpro, LOL

Thatís like me going into a restaurant and having them tell me I didnít come there to eat.

I can see someone calling a talent agency asking what type entertainment they can recommend. But Iím talking business in general of the average magician. Yes if someone calls a magician the odds are good they looking for a magic show. Believe it or not, the MAJORITY of magicians on here donít sing and dance, they do magic shows and that is what they get hired to do. Only a tiny, tiny percentage here make a living working the so called Ďprofessionalí market. I never speak to those. I always speak in general terms to fit the 'majority' of magicians out there. I donít speak to the superstars, those who run huge bookings agencies, etc, I include the little guys, those who are constantly out there beating the bushes trying to sell the show.

So I hope that explains why I was invited here, to simply help our fellow magicians. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2017 05:34PM)
So how does one progress to higher levels without thinking in that direction?

Telling them they will not progress isn't helping anyone. Giving them bad advice won't either.

But nice sarcastic comment. I know in your world that passes for wit. But you are about half right.

And speaking in general terms is not helpful in the least. Besides usually you are quite specific.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 6, 2017 05:40PM)
You can say it as many times as you want Tom it's still incorrect. They may think they want a magic show but most often that is not what they truly want at all. And I'm not talking from an agency perspective but rather a sole performer's perspective.

You go to a restaurant because you are hungry and have the facts to determine what you are hungry for and where you know you can get exactly what you want. That is not how entertainemnt is bought and sold. No, I do not believe the Cafť management invited you to be here either. Again, just because you say it doesn't mean it is real.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (May 6, 2017 05:54PM)
[quote]On May 6, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Like I said, business is about providing your customer with what they want, period. And if it requires going down a different path to do that, ok, but I still say good general/common business sense with be a great help getting there. [/quote]

Tom - In your Daycare book for magicians, you share very specific content on how to approach this market based upon both your knowledge of that industry as well as your understanding of what a magician could offer. It is safe to say that most daycare owners do not have to be same level of understanding of what they would be desiring in hiring a magician as you did, because they are less familiar with the role we can play towards their goals. Likewise, the advice you offered was specific and directional in nature and far better input than just general business advice.

If someone in this section were to tell someone pursuing the daycare market that business is business, just keep hitting up the daycare owners early and often and out work your competitors with more advertising and marketing materials, they may in fact be setting the reader back because that advice does not jive with what you (as an informed and experienced daycare center owner) shared in your book.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 6, 2017 06:04PM)
Danny I didnít say a word about not making progress, but rather the opposite of that. You grow your business skills by looking outside the box. You look at how others, even in a completely different industry, to see how they are growing. You reach a point where your friend in magic canít be of that much help, so you turn elsewhere. That's what I'm saying. Simple to see really.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2017 06:12PM)
That is nothing like what you said.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 6, 2017 06:19PM)
Charliecheckers,

My Daycare book was written for the magician wanting to work daycares. Yes it has specific content because I did own a daycare center for 19 years. But we are not talking specific markets here, or at least I am not. Never do. My business experience goes way, way beyond the daycare market. Iíve owned and operated several businesses, also been in all type sales work. Iíve sold everything from vacuum cleaners to million dollar life insurance policies. :) And that is the reason that I say much of the business experience/knowledge can indeed be carried over from one business to the next. It's all about talking care of business.

The best advice I can give to grow a business is donít be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone to learn new idea. That's all I'm saying.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 6, 2017 06:19PM)
And I would add you typically wouldn't look outside your industry (secondary) until you have understanding and some type of prominence in your industry's perspectives, operatives and preferences first. Dealing in generalities is much different than specifics or industry-specifics.

Tom's just on a button-pushing kick again. As charliecheckers clearly pointed out, he should know better and is just trying to push Danny's buttons. It must be a slow day in Mississippi.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 6, 2017 06:22PM)
Believe it or not I love you people. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2017 06:26PM)
So the only experience they matters is yours? My lord.

Talking in generalities helps nobody grow. Bloviate all you like it doesn't matter.

I never speak about daycare shows. Because I have no idea about them. At least I am aware enough to know it.

And strangely enough you will follow a post that ends with "that's all I an saying" with another post saying even more.

You keep changing what your are saying.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (May 7, 2017 06:45AM)
[quote]On May 6, 2017, Mindpro wrote:

The problem with doing what "others are all doing" and "trying anything new that comes along as long as its free" is time. It takes time and usually money to learn about, research and attempt to implement these "free" things. The questions needs to be is that "time" best and most well spent? [/quote]
You make a good point. Rate of return on your time is just as important as rate of return on your money.

[quote]On May 6, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
And THAT is what this section is for - matters pertaining specifically to entertainment business.
[/quote]
This struck a chord with me.

Iíve heard many entertainers (apparently successful ones) justify their business practices by saying this is how large corporations do it. If there was ever a good lesson about how NOT to treat customers itís the one that happened with United Airlines recently. And yet many airlines have practiced this for many years. Why? Because they can. They can get away with it until something like this happens and they have a major public relations problem.

Did you ever want to book a hotel and find out the rate is 3 or 4 times as much on the date you want to book it than an off night? Chances are you will still book it. Large corporations know they can get away with this. But do you feel good about your purchase? No. You feel like youíre getting soaked.

I donít run a large corporation, I run a small entertainment business. I donít have to act like the big boys, I just have to satisfy my customers. I want them to feel good about their purchase. So, I donít raise my rates because they are booking on a holiday, etc. I probably could but I choose not to. I could probably get more money for my shows and work less, but I choose not to. And I certainly donít overbook! I know entertainers who will do this. Double book and take the highest paid gig. Even if youíre David Copperfield, this fundamentally wrong. Look what giant corporation United Airlines is going through now.

Sure I could brag about how much money I made for that ONE gig. But I prefer to have many gigs at a fair price and make every customer feel good about their purchase, ready to share their pleasant experience with their friends (and online :) )

Plus, as has been agreed by everyone here, doing shows is the best way to get more shows.

PS I was not invited here by management. :(
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 7, 2017 10:36AM)
Mindpro can answer but meanwhile I will throw this out there.

Ken, I think your right and I think the Cafť is lucky to have you here, I feel you speak for many of the Ďrealí working magician out there. A true professional; what I call the real deal.

Large corporations and little magicians are apples and oranges. And trying to compare the two is often so misleading to many on here. When you are what I call, the chief cook and bottle washer, (a self employed person) You donít answer to the big boss behind the desk, your boss is the customer, they can hire you and they can fire you. So thatís who you should be listening too. A small business should have one main purpose, and that is to serve its customers. And itís not a place for the lazy to have a good easy job. Dealing with other people is hard word; not always easy pleasing customers, sometimes you have to check your ego.

If we really wanted to help others on here we would drop the huge corporate talk and talk about things like customer service, personal development, etc. In the end its going to be your personality calling the shots anyway.

So let me drop the big secret about running a small business, and I can describe the secret in ONE word, probably the most important word you will ever here on here about your business. This is the ONE thing that all the super successful people have in common, and this ONE thing can separate your success from all the rest in the business world. Itís the reason that mom and pop place has been there for so many years; itís also the reason why only a few superstars, athletes, etc, stand much taller than all the others combined.

That ONE thing is ĎAuthenticityí Certainly a big word for someone like me, I had to spell check it, but itís not important that you canít spell it, but you do need to know what it means. Once you understand the true meaning and will begin to apply it, your business will never be the same.

In part it means that youíre not false or trying to copy everyone else; you are genuine and not trying to be somebody youíre not; youíre authentic and as a business you care about your customers, you treat them the way you would want to be treated yourself; you are transparent and you keep things simpleÖ.. You become the real deal to those in your market.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 7, 2017 10:48AM)
Then if there is such a difference why the constant comparisons to Apple or Ready Kroc? You say it is the same across the board when it is convenient then switch.

You say it is about giving the customer what they want PERIOD. Now suddenly it is about authenticity. Well that is where you gal down. Other times it is about being nice. Make up your mind.

The fact is you can't possibly know what it takes to be in this business unless you have done it. This is true of most businesses. Heck even speaking about markets one is not in is a leap.

Many aspects of business translate much like birds flying. You still have to stay in the air, but the physical dynamics of each bird make the process quite unique. What works a hummingbird will cause an eagle to never take off or worse yet crash.

You cause harm to those trying to learn by telling them things that simply don't apply.

Entertainment is about a lot of things. First and foremost it is being entertaining at the level beyond your price point. Something that is just assumed here is that everyone is good enough at that to be where they want. Not always the best assumption but people get mad and say you are mean if you mention it.

It is about WAY MORE than one thing or one word no matter what level you are at. Not knowing this is debilitating.

As for treating others the way you want to be treated that is a bad myth. I don't like sales pitches, I don't like all the bs that goes with it. My time is valuable. I am short and to the point. Treating people like that in sales can be disastrous. That myth is very ME centered as it assumes everyone is like you.

Smart business people treat people they way people want to be treated.

Again so many of the myths we cling to can be so harmful.

Yes Tom dealing with others is tough. I just wish you didn't have to keep demonstrating it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 7, 2017 11:23AM)
Yes, I do notice how Tom likes to deal in generalizations and tries to find ways to make them apply to topics here. This is where his disconnect from entertainment business and the basic foundation of understanding the specifics of entertainment business (which most come here for) and how it differs in many ways from conventional business.

To quote one of Tom's heros...

ďGeneral knowledge no matter how great in quality or variety it may be, is of little use in the accumulation of moneyĒ
Napoleon Hill, Think and Grow Rich
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 7, 2017 11:31AM)
Danny,

I agree telling some people to just be themselves is the worst advice you can give them. Thatís why very few will really ever understand the word. Takes a lot of practice and patience to Ďgetí it.

Mindpro, Iím more familiar with the Hill quote, ďWhatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve.Ē

But the one that probably applies here the most: ďIf you can't do great things, do small things in a great way.Ē

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 7, 2017 12:05PM)
Why do you insist on there being 2 levels. Your level, and SUPERSTAR? There are so many roads between the two it is unfathomable. You don't have to be a superstar to make a really great living at all. Sorry to break it to you but just because someone is not a superstar does not automatically put them on your level.

Why do you insist on telling people they will never be anything? People can accomplish more than you did. Just because you failed in no way means others will fail. YOU didn't manage to do well. OK no big deal. Others do just fine Tom and for you to want to drag down everyone to your level and tell them that they will be nothing if they are not superstars is ridiculous.

Limiting thinking of others just because of your own ego issues is not right. I have faith that people can accomplish many things. I am sorry you don't share that idea.

So please stop Tom. You may not understand and that is OK. Don't stop others from understanding please.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 7, 2017 12:10PM)
:)

Danny, you really don't have a clue.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 7, 2017 12:38PM)
If believing in people makes me clueless. Guilty as charged.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 7, 2017 01:03PM)
No what makes you clueless is ruling out all the good general business advice out there, saying oh that canít apply to me because I am an entertainer. That is about the stupidest thing Iíve ever heard. Business is business, and personally, Iíve probably never meet anyone in business that I couldnít learn a little something from.

Anyway I will give you the last word. Go ahead.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 7, 2017 01:57PM)
That is far from your last word and you w it.
The reason that it sounds like the stupidest thing you ever heard is because YOU SAID IT. Where did I rule out any advice? YOU said that not me.

I admit to ruling out most of what you say. But that is not good business advice, much less all.

So stop reading into what I write and read it for a change. You may just learn something.

Barring that would you please stop hindering others from progressing?
Message: Posted by: G. Batson (May 8, 2017 12:29AM)
Mindpro thinks this section is just for entertainment business. Thas not what the description says. A trade show magician is not hired to entertain. There hired to attract prospects to a booth. But they can be entertaining. Same thing for a motivational speaker who uses magic to teach something. There hired to provide content. Both are magicians but are not in the entertainment business.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 12:44AM)
Seriously?
Message: Posted by: G. Batson (May 8, 2017 12:56AM)
Yes I am serious. Do you have a question?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 01:53AM)
A trade show performer or presenter is still considered part of the entertainment industry as is the magician regardless of which format they perform or present and IS still entertainment business, sorry. Most of these bookings they use an entertainment agency, talent broker or speakers bureau or contact the entertainer direct - all entertainment business transactions. Call it what you want it is covered here because it is entertainment business. Sorry, you are wrong!
Message: Posted by: G. Batson (May 8, 2017 07:23AM)
Trade shows maybe yes. You know more about that than me. Motivational speakers are not considered part of the entertainment industry. There can be overlap. Ask any NSA member.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 07:42AM)
Yes, Mindpro likes to try and change the rules to fit him.

That would be like me saying this is the MAGIC-CAF… it is for MAGICIANS helping MAGICIANS, and Hypnotist, Jugglers, or any other act is not allowed anywhere here.

I can remember when we use to have a lot of speakers, teachers, preachers, etc, come here. Everybody and anybody was welcome. They still peek in from time to time they just don't post anymore.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 09:12AM)
Last word huh Tom? You just can't help yourself! See that ploy only works when you keep quiet after saying it. But you can't manage the last part LOL.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 09:18AM)
I guess if you break it down and pidgin hole it motivational speakers are not entertainment, but in many colleges they are often programed by the same group that dies entertainment and it chines from the same budget.

I will tell you a motivational speaker who is not entertaining is unemployed so I am not certain your point other than to try to take shots at Mindpro.

I believe both at the very least tangentially are indeed in the entertainment business, unlike Tom.
Message: Posted by: G. Batson (May 8, 2017 09:57AM)
No shots intended. I'm just making a point that the speaking industry and entertainment industry are quite different. I admitted ther was overlap like colleges you mentioned. Just because a speaker uses magic does not make them an entertainer.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 10:00AM)
Danny, taking shots at me doesnít help a thing.

Iím just trying the keep the facts straight.

So for the record, and please write this down, YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE AN ENTERTAINER to post here.

Let some kidshow performer come in here and ask about mailing postcards to prospects, and mindpro says. ďthis is not the right place, that is a Ďconsumerí show you need to go talk to the kiddie magicians up in the kidshow section.Ē

Let someone ask about taxes or a business license and watch how fast you tell them not to listen to anyone here, go hire an accountant, get out of here and donít come back.

You and Mindpro need to get your act together and stop harassing people causing others not to want to post here.

Ok, had my word for the day.

Now go ahead and post your smart*** remark and get it over with.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 10:41AM)
You have pronoun trouble because I never dao's anything like that. Reading is fundamental but comprehension is an advanced skill. Work on it.

Tom you are the problem. You just can't stop being contrary. Just stop. That is 2 posts since you were supposedly done. And you will post again today.

You really make yourself look silly.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 03:54PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Tom [/quote]

I'm not changing any rules, read the description to this forum! Trade show and motivational presentations are included here as part of entertainment business. All booked, promoted and secured through the same processes and often the same contacts. Regardless of whether message-based or not magicians are still performers. Yes, the best speakers are indeed performers, including many NSA members and winners.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 04:23PM)
Here they are, we can read them together. A copy and paste below:

ďDiscussions on working cruise ships, & doing trade shows. Topics may also include routine ideas for motivational magic & other specialized programs. This is also the area to talk about the business side of magic (e.g, contracts, promotions, taxes, etc)Ē


Please notice the, ďThis is ALSO the area to talk about the business side of magic.Ē


Also means.....nevermind. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 04:43PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:

Let some kidshow performer come in here and ask about mailing postcards to prospects, and mindpro says. ďthis is not the right place, that is a Ďconsumerí show you need to go talk to the kiddie magicians up in the kidshow section.Ē

You and Mindpro need to get your act together and stop harassing people causing others not to want to post here.

Tom [/quote]

Tom, you really need to give it up, you beginning to sound like a crochety old man. Nowhere have I or anyone ever said anything of the sort. I spend more time helping consumer market performers than probably anyone here, and heaven forbid would I EVER direct anyone to the kiddie section where some of the worst business advice is offered.

Once again, you have no idea what your talking about. And besides you, why would someone who is not an entertainer be here, let alone voice such ignorant, uninformed opinions about the business of entertainment?

It is really getting quite old how you mess up every thread these days. Others see it just as well. Leave it alone. Take up Pinochle, go out and collect Daisies, watch some Walton's reruns or anything to occupy your retirement time, but stop interfering with others still trying to work for a living in today's entertainment marketplace and progress their entertainment business operation. All of this IS about the business side of magic and performing.

I am getting tired of you saying things I have never said, twisting things to say what I've never said, and having such false perceptions that couldn't be further from the truth. These are personal attacks!
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (May 8, 2017 09:02PM)
[b]To the original poster, cbguy...[/b]

You originally asked about word of mouth on Facebook. Two very seasoned practitioners gave you their thoughts.

While I'm not 100% in agreement with eatonmagic I've done background on him and he is legitimately a practitioner. So while we disagree to a point, I give him respect for his opinions and experience.

I can't speak to some of the others on this thread but can unequivocally tell you this. The theee loudest people in this discussion aren't practitioners. They're headline readers. They've read a headline or an article but they haven't executed.

Anyone reading this far should keep that in mind when considering the advice given.
Message: Posted by: Station10 (May 8, 2017 09:40PM)
It's amazing how a simple question can de-evolve into such a comedy of errors. I responded before giving my thoughts, which appear to have gotten buried under the avalanche of other comments. But to get back to the original question of generating word of mouth advertising on social media sites.

Here are some of my previous thoughts and a few new ones:

1) must be engaging - the audience needs to be able to interact (not just react) If it is just you spouting off how great and entertaining you are than it will be just another ad that they quickly by-pass. Questions need to be asked, opinions solicited, contests held. Get your audience to communicate with you and develop a relationship. Make them feel like they are important.

2) Call to action - as with any marketing it is best to have a call to action . . ENDING SOON! . . . ONE NIGHT ONLY! . . . LIMITED SEATING . . . you get the picture. There needs to be an implied or perceived scarcity to help compel people into action.

3) Visual is the key - people are in a hurry today and scan through social media sites very quickly. Large amounts of text are quickly overpassed. Make sure you have great pictures that will grab the readers attention. Have them property framed and in-focus with good lighting. I see so many bad pictures that people post to try to sell their items.

4) Involve others - people like to see themselves or others they know. Take advantage of photo ops to be seen with other prominent people in the community. Chamber of Commerce Meetings, local fundraisers, school events.

5) experiment with various platforms - what works for one will not work for other platforms. Facebook, twitter, instagram, snapchat and I'm sure there are other's too. Each one has a different flavor, make sure you try to find out what works for each and tap into that.

6) Invite them - while posts should generally be short and sweet (remember, people don't have the time and if you can't say what you want in one or two sentences then they probably won't read it. BUT!!! you can invite them to subscribe to your email list, blog, newsletter and so on to learn more or receive special offers. If they do this they are showing a deeper interest and a desire to devote more time to you. Use these devices to expand upon your short posts.

7) Consider paid advertising - through demographic, sociological, economic and other filters you can pretty specifically target your audience with paid advertising.

8) Don't expect immediate results - any good advertising takes time to build up, especially word of mouth advertising. You may luck out and have some items go viral but as with anything worthwhile you will have to work at it.

9) Frequency - this will take a bit of experimentation. You will need to make sure you post and engage enough that you will keep people's interest but not so much that you become annoying. I've had some people that post dozens of times a day and flood my newsfeed with their advertisements . . . these people are quickly blocked. On the flip side you can't post something once a month or longer and expect to stay relevant.

There is no one set answer to how to do things. What works for one person may not work for another.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 10:32PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[b]To the original poster, cbguy...[/b]

You originally asked about word of mouth on Facebook. Two very seasoned practitioners gave you their thoughts.

While I'm not 100% in agreement with eatonmagic I've done background on him and he is legitimately a practitioner. So while we disagree to a point, I give him respect for his opinions and experience.

I can't speak to some of the others on this thread but can unequivocally tell you this. The theee loudest people in this discussion aren't practitioners. They're headline readers. They've read a headline or an article but they haven't executed.

Anyone reading this far should keep that in mind when considering the advice given. [/quote]

Interesting in that you seem to mean experience matters.
Message: Posted by: G. Batson (May 9, 2017 12:42AM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[b]To the original poster, cbguy...[/b]

You originally asked about word of mouth on Facebook. Two very seasoned practitioners gave you their thoughts.
.
.
I can't speak to some of the others on this thread but can unequivocally tell you this. The theee loudest people in this discussion aren't practitioners. They're headline readers. They've read a headline or an article but they haven't executed.

Anyone reading this far should keep that in mind when considering the advice given. [/quote]

A wise man once said "Those who say it can't be done need to stop interrupting those of us who are doing it."
.
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (May 10, 2017 09:41AM)
[quote]On May 5, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
4. Keith still clearly has a mono-focused agenda that is transparent to everyone even though he thinks he's being clever. [/quote]
Yes, I do tend to respond to your posts that contain statements I disagree with. I hope you'll agree that is one of the purposes of this forum.

I've always been transparent about why. Because I disagree with most of what you write, based on my experience as a full-time entertainer for over 4 decades, in a variety of disciplines. And I'm not selling anything. To repeat - I'm not selling anything.

And transparency is where it's at, in my book. One can't be any more transparent than putting their name to their words and works.

Of course you have a right to remain anonymous, and I wouldn't think otherwise. But when you promote your ebooks, while giving, what is in my opinion, questionable advice, it begs further knowledge about the author of any of it.

I think it couldn't be said any clearer than this - from right here in the Tricky Business section. It's something you wrote:

[quote]On Jul 17, 2014, Mindpro wrote:
However, I strongly believe when you cross over into offering advice, services or products for compensation, your position is elevated to another level. With that should come some additional information subjective to this new level and direction you are seeking.

What is your experience?
Who are you to offer such information?
What areas or markets is your experience in?
What is the backstory to gaining your experience?
How long have you been practicing this knowledge and experience?
What have the results of your personal experience been?
How does this differ from other products based on the same experience?
How and why is this difference?
Why are you the guy to trust or turn to for such services and information?

Simply put, I think you should first, before ever releasing any information, introduce and provide all of the who, what where, when, whys and how related to you, your business, your knowledge and person experience, to allow others to have a much clearer understanding of you, your products and services, the backstory as to what and why it is all about and came to be, and what makes you the expert or authority that you are positioning yourself to be by offering such products and promotional offers.[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2017 10:06AM)
Keith you never had another job in 40 years other than performer? Congrats. Not an easy accomplishment.
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (May 10, 2017 10:57AM)
Please see that I did not say 40 consecutive years. Only the last 25 are consecutive. But most of my other jobs (not counting the 40), were entertainment industry-related. And thank you.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2017 11:05AM)
25 is impressive isn't it?

And let's not get misunderstood. One can do well for 25 years and not be a "superstar" and known in the inbred magic community. 25 years you tend to learn a thing or two. (Actually one can do VERY well.)

Just doing this for 25 years with no other means of support is impressive.