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Topic: Is it Flaming, Ignorance Or Simply The Way Of A Younger Online Generation?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 10, 2017 09:52PM)
I am currently out on the road for my annual Spring Tour and I had the good fortune of spending a couple of gigs in California this weekend with my daughter. We got a chance to hang out and she brings up a topic that we actually spent the better part of two days on and off talking about and referring back to.

She brought up the topic of a comprehension problem with the age group. She said she has noticed it with business, audiences and just people she comes in contact with in general. She started talking about how they seem to have a tendency to not comprehend something clearly and simply presented to them. Then she asked me is it a comprehension problem, and ignorance problem, a not really caring or vested problem, or is it something else more purposefully?

She accompanied this with several examples which ended up extending to almost everything we encountered from our audiences, to following instructions, to comprehending a concept, to understanding something new being explained or offered to them, to even asking our waitress a simple question at Chili's. We became quite aware of its commonality and prominence. And not just towards us, but we witnessed it equally from and between many others we observed too.

We began discussing this personally and of course it quickly shifted to this playing a role into business operations, marketing and sales.

After a great weekend of observation and discussion, I quickly return to the Cafť and see how common it is here as well. Why does this exist? Is it a shift in learning or acceptance? Is it in intelligence or comprehension thing? Is it a more cavalier or less caring thing? Is it just someone's personal attempt to be create disruption?

I see it here in posts all the time. Not wanting to derail others threads, so I started this one, but people seem to hear and perceive things that are both different that being said or expressed or completely taken entirely and completely out of context. Here it has often been attributed to online flaming or personal agenda, which make it dismissable and easily written off, but I am beginning to think it is something much more and intentional.

I have many younger guys and gals I work with in a variety of capacities, and I do not see this as a generational thing popular with everyone. Though it seems quite common here online, as I said, we just spent the weekend seeing everywhere else.

I think understanding this could help us all in business as well since business if often about educating and sales, and if these factors become impaired because of this problem, it should be if interest to us all. if it is something more intentional, this too should be identified and called out.

Walter, a very well-respected and extremely fair member of the Cafť was the latest victim for what seems like no reason. Perhaps he happened to agreed with me, lol, but that still shouldn't be a real reason to be the recipient of such an attack.

There seems to be some people that almost automatically seem to recieve or perceive the exact opposite of what so many others easily comprehend or receive. Why? Is it a default setting, mentality or approach? To completely take something out of context, and then twist it to say something never said, completely different or what appears self-serving but not based on anything real or factual is quite concerning. I don't buy skepticism, as it simply is beyond something that simple.

Are they truly hearing and receiving something different than what is being stated or offered? Are they continually trying to twist things to be what they'd prefer it to be? Are they simply twisting things towards someone intentionally to make it appear they have said things they never did?

I'd be curious to others thoughts on this as it could be beneficial to us all in business and performance.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 10:10AM)
I know why it happens here.

People tend to universalize their own experience. If they experience it everyone does.

People have been told they can't be wrong, get participation trophies for losing and hiding in " safe spaces" from ideas they don't agree with. Give them one they don't agree with and you are a bully!

People want for some reason to already know everything, ship the gain experience part and be taken as experts immediately.

Blogs have created a sense of instant expert. Many don't want to learn any more.

Yes it is a shift, but not a drastic one. This has always existed, it is simply amplified by the Internet is all. Younger generations have always wanted things faster. It is just that faster now represents something else with the Internet.

Personally I don't see it in audiences. I don't notice it live either.

If a person tries to communicate the same way online as they do live it will be a problem.

Maybe I don't notice it live because I don't have any preconceived notions about how people should or should not do things. I don't expect the waits at Chili's to be spectacular at what she does. I just accept what is happening and adjust to her. I don't expect from the world, I accept the world as it is. Note you have said nothing to contradict this. I am just putting it out there.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 11, 2017 10:52AM)
Is it then just the need to be heard, right or wrong? Are they that he** bent on their opinion being heard? It would explain a lot around here, lol, but still not justify. Everyone has always had an opinion, but they've never gone to such extent to have it be heard, at any cost, whether right or wrong. Is it a distorted perception issue or comprehension? Is that he way one wants to really be perceived?

"If a person tries to communicate the same way online as they do live it will be a problem." This was one of my concerns as if this is how they conduct business and operate, it could be a major liability.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 11:13AM)
Yes they just want to be heard.
Message: Posted by: Mary Mowder (Apr 11, 2017 12:55PM)
And we want to save face.

I've seen pages of text that amount to nothing more than not wanting to be embarrassed publicly (which is easy for me to understand).
A common thing here is that a person without a lot of experience will say something dumb that they assume to be true and are expecting to gain status with a lot of people agreeing.
Sometimes the good advice here is delivered with a large dose of "I'm smarter than you!" that is hard to swallow (and we wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of it either).
Some good advice is delivered in a way that is counterproductive.
The Newbie is embarrassed by being publicly humiliated and we are off to the races with pages of newbie trying to land on their feet and the righteous experienced piling on.
If we imagine what we would say to each other in person, we might communicate better.
By the way. I'm not talking about any specific thread, just a trend .

I don't think all of the mis-communication first mentioned by the O.P. is intentional.
Our brains are being re-wired by our media and the ways we interact with it.
You are not imagining it. People are not thinking as well.
I think it has to do with never being bored enough to sit and process information. There is always something to look at. This is a big change for our brains. Not sitting and thinking or daydreaming is a hugh loss to problem solving and understanding in general. Imagine the change for the worse if most of us gave up REM sleep for a while. It might not be as dire as that but the loss of cogitating time is huge.

-Mary Mowder
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 01:39PM)
I for one do communicate exactly the same person or online.

I do agree that the distance and anonymous nature of the Internet causes problems. Combined with no tone being imparted and ego issues with being permed and a plethora of other problems it is a miracle anything gets communicated via Internet.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 11, 2017 01:45PM)
I think Mary hits on some excellent points which was one of the reasons for the initial post. We live in a 5 second, 140 character world these days. I agree that people seem to have a comprehension or as Mary puts it a "processing" problem. Of course this is on top of the way many younger people want and even expect information to be presented to them. It is a noticeable difference from others that when wanting to learn about a particular subject will immerse themselves completely into the topic gaining as much as they can, from wherever they can, however it is presented.

I do think it's important to point out "I'm smarter than you are" is much different than someone speaking frankly and factually from experience. One may confuse one for the other but they are completely different.

I also think the issue of problem solving is somethings very significant here. There is a huge difference from creative thinking or as many refer to it as "thinking out of the box" to come up with the best possible solution, rather than just seeking an immediate answer in order to move on. I see this with many I work with and initially some can have trouble with creative thinking and processing.

Mary's identification of people thinking, believing and stating something untrue or intentionally participating even with no knowledge or experience of a topic simply in order to be heard "and are expecting to gain status with a lot of people agreeing" is extremely counterproductive to most discussions and progress.

It seems this is all a comprehending issue

One of the things that is s major key component of my business is when I educate prospective or inquiring customers and you see their lightbulb immediately go off and at the end they literally say "thank you so much for all of the information, I would have never known/thought/realized or considered that on my own." This is why we are always in the education business. This is what separates one from the pack of others. This is what establishes a vested relationship, positioning and respect. It also prevents many problems later in the transaction.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 02:16PM)
[quote]On Apr 11, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I for one do communicate exactly the same person or online.

I do agree that the distance and anonymous nature of the Internet causes problems. Combined with no tone being imparted and ego issues with being permed and a plethora of other problems it is a miracle anything gets communicated via Internet. [/quote]

Not permed. Being corrected is what was meant ironically enough.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 11, 2017 06:11PM)
One thing to remember about a forum like this is lots of people are just throwing ideas out. In a theatrical show, it could be said that the "industry standard" is to have a red curtain. This is true.
But on an online forum you can say you can have any color curtain you want! This is also true.
Another commenter could say "I have seen theaters with Blue, Purple, Gold, Green, and Black Curtains." This is also true.

The point? Everyone is right, no one is wrong. We are just throwing out ideas and discussing them.

To me.. the best use of this section of the Cafť' is when we share our experiences. That's the best education is real life experience.

I can already predict that I will be scolded for "not understanding" the initial post. ;)
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Apr 11, 2017 06:54PM)
Understanding changes in the way we process information and interact with one another is definitely important for this type of discussion as well as business communications. I think much of what Mary shared is at the heart of the challenges. The one thing I would add though, is that misconceptions of the value of information shared is by no means limited to newer performers or even posters. Scope has a lot to do with it as well. One can be perceived as an expert on a topic in their geographical location and then carry that persona to the internet not aware of the accomplishments and expertise of those they find themselves interacting with. This happens all the time when individuals move outside of their smaller surrounding in all walks of life, but occurs even more often now, due to the fact that interactions are virtual.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 07:32PM)
Yea the idea of just throwing it ideas and thru all have the same merit is not good. Not all ideas are created equal. Not all experience is relevant.

That is the worst thing that had happened with the Internet.
Message: Posted by: Mary Mowder (Apr 11, 2017 07:43PM)
Really, that is the worst thing that has happened with the internet!? LOL

-Mary
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 11, 2017 07:46PM)
[quote]On Apr 11, 2017, thomasR wrote:
One thing to remember about a forum like this is lots of people are just throwing ideas out. In a theatrical show, it could be said that the "industry standard" is to have a red curtain. This is true.
But on an online forum you can say you can have any color curtain you want! This is also true.
Another commenter could say "I have seen theaters with Blue, Purple, Gold, Green, and Black Curtains." This is also true.

The point? Everyone is right, no one is wrong. We are just throwing out ideas and discussing them.

To me.. the best use of this section of the Cafť' is when we share our experiences. That's the best education is real life experience.

I can already predict that I will be scolded for "not understanding" the initial post. ;) [/quote]


Are you telling me that more than one answer can be right? How dare you question the more experienced experts? LOL

I agree with what you said, yes there is more than one way to skin a cat as they say. :)

Iíve owned and managed many, many businesses over my lifetime and I canít remember a single time that all the competitors ran their business the exact same way I did. Magic is no different, there is no SET WAY things MUST be done. Yes it is true that some ways may work better, but if the shoe doesnít fit, you canít wear it no matter how hard you try and force it on. You must find something that fits YOU. A good business person will want to look at many ideas. They will welcome all opinions.

As for as on here, I blame much of the confusion on the constant ramblings about all the bad magicians out there. Many think this includes them too and will be labeled as such if they do post. Thatís what happens when you mix in so much negativity with what could be a positive thing. The negative will always stand out above the rest and completely destroy what was actually said. Outsiders are not about to jump in a discussion where others are being bad mouthed for simply posting their own opinion.

For the record I personally donít see us having any Ďbadí magicians posting on here. The Ďothersí that is so often talked about, even when it is just for an example, should never be dragged into the conversations and we would have a wonderful place here.

Just my thoughts,

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 11, 2017 07:55PM)
[quote]On Apr 11, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea the idea of just throwing it ideas and thru all have the same merit is not good. Not all ideas are created equal. Not all experience is relevant.

That is the worst thing that had happened with the Internet. [/quote]

Why do you not think that all experience is relevant?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 08:19PM)
Because it simply isn't.

For example we see it here all the time. Someone doing kids shows who thinks that those techniques directly translate to corporate work. Or the armchair guys here who haven't even done a show in this century are the world's foremost authority on anything.

Working and making money are a very serious business and you can't just know it without doing it.

All the sarcastic remarks from the armchair crowd don't change it one bit.

So while all experience that is directly related IS relevant, ones experience fishing for trout might not translate well to booking high end corporate events.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 11, 2017 08:49PM)
Which brings us to the question: Whatís more important: Qualifications or Experience?

If you want to be a professional like a doctor, lawyer, or something like a business consultant, qualifications
are just as every bit important as the amount of experience you have.

Experience is good but if youíre not qualified in ways outside your own experience, you may not be the
very best for the job.


Never let your experience tie you down. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 09:00PM)
Yes I agree that most oeople with no experience believe that claptrap.

Fact is without qualifications you will get very little experience.

It is those without either one who ate really dangerous when they give advice.

And qualifications with no experience is useless.

Plus nobody but you seems to think it is one or the other. Just how does one become a doctor with no qualifications anyhow?

I know you are desperate to have experience mean nothing but it doesn't work that way.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 11, 2017 09:17PM)
Read it again Danny. I didnít say you didnítí need experience to be qualified.
I said, the most qualified will usually get the job.

And no, being qualified is not always the same as having a lot of experience.
I know you don't believe that but that doesn't make it so.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 09:22PM)
Experience becomes PART OF your qualifications. But that only applies when you do the job.

But since again here we are talking about doing shows I guess your point as usual is meaningless.

But thank you for illustrating mindpros point so very well.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 11, 2017 09:30PM)
Danny,

What kind of shows are we talking about doing here?

What was mindpro's point, that a different point of view wasn't welcome here?

Or are you just proving my point about attacking others for no reason?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 10:06PM)
Amazing you are part of this discussion and don't know his original point? Seriously?

You also prove Mary's point as well Tom. Way to go.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 11, 2017 10:21PM)
No I am not a part of the discussion; Iím just having to defend your constant attacks. But if you could shut your mouth for a minute maybe we could have a real discussion. But I donít think you can do that Danny. I wonder if mindpro was talking about you with the flaming part.I bet he was.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 11, 2017 10:28PM)
[quote]On Apr 11, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]On Apr 11, 2017, thomasR wrote:
One thing to remember about a forum like this is lots of people are just throwing ideas out. In a theatrical show, it could be said that the "industry standard" is to have a red curtain. This is true.
But on an online forum you can say you can have any color curtain you want! This is also true.
Another commenter could say "I have seen theaters with Blue, Purple, Gold, Green, and Black Curtains." This is also true.

The point? Everyone is right, no one is wrong. We are just throwing out ideas and discussing them.

To me.. the best use of this section of the Cafť' is when we share our experiences. That's the best education is real life experience.

I can already predict that I will be scolded for "not understanding" the initial post. ;) [/quote]


Are you telling me that more than one answer can be right? How dare you question the more experienced experts? LOL

I agree with what you said, yes there is more than one way to skin a cat as they say. :)


Tom [/quote]

This was your first post Tom. Sarcastic and attacking. So you are not defending anything here you are the one who is attacking.

And people who say there is more than one way to skin a cat have never tried to field dress a deer.

Your constant sarcasm and needless bickering is part of the problem.

Now you get all huffy and say shut my mouth and want to pretend you are the victim. All you got was answered in kind nothing more. You drag down EVERY thread you are part of with either useless information about things you DO NOT EVER DO or you put together little sarcastic comments to derail things.

So please stop. Seriously just please stop. It is tiresome and predictable.

If you ever do a magic show, then perhaps you can give us your experience. Until then your VERY limited experience from the 1980's has run it's course.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 12, 2017 07:49AM)
Danny, I am not going to keep explaining to you how I have been involved in magic one way or the other for the past 70 years.
Itís clear you simply hate old people and get a kick out of following them around and harassing them. Check my past 100 posts
here and see who is first to respond with some smart remark. You do it 9 out of 10 times.

This thread has nothing to do with doing magic shows. Itís called ďFlaming, Ignorance Or Simply The Way Of A Younger Online Generation?Ē So if mindpro is serious about calling out the flame throwers all he has to do is look at your record here. Many magicians over on facebook have said, and often do say that they donít post here anymore mainly because of DannyDoyle. That is a fact, and it is sad that you have no idea why they say that. Of course you take pride in your reputation Iím sure. Danny, this thread is about how we treat others on here and I hate to say it but you are a long way from being a Ďrealí professional. A Ďrealí professional shows respect to everyone regardless of their age, experience, or opinion.

Anyway, got to run for a few days so enjoy all that so called experience you have.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 12, 2017 08:36AM)
70 years and you so can't manage to be a professional? No wonder you are so crabby. (But THANK GOD you are not going to keep explaining it. It is really sad.)

And Tom it is not about age. I would call out anyone who acts like you do. Again it is very nice of you to illustrate the point of this thread so well.

Here is a question posed by Mindpro. "Is it then just the need to be heard, right or wrong? Are they that he** bent on their opinion being heard? It would explain a lot around here, lol, but still not justify. Everyone has always had an opinion, but they've never gone to such extent to have it be heard, at any cost, whether right or wrong. Is it a distorted perception issue or comprehension? Is that he way one wants to really be perceived?"

YES! You are just SO desperate to be heard right or wrong. You just want your opinion out there whether you have anything to actually contribute or not.

Mary talks about wanting to save face and attributes it to younger people. Well Tom there ya go. Not always younger people apparently because you just NEVER STOP!

So don't throw me the age bs. It is just silly. You have a VERY long history of acting like this exactly. So again please stop.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 12, 2017 09:35AM)
Danny, mindpro said, "I'd be curious to others thoughts on this as it could be beneficial to us all in business and performance."

He asked for thoughts on the subject so why jump me when I give my thoughts. If you don't agree, why is it so hard to just move on?
Why are you so set on discrediting everything I say here? I didn't give out advice on doing a show, that wasn't the question, yet you come a running, like you always do, with the 'you have to experience' crap. My gosh man, get over your hate for someone posting a different opinion than yours.

Besides, as someone else has said above, sometimes there can be more than one answer to a question.

Now go ahead and have the last word with some off the wall remark that has nothing to do with the topic. It's called Flaming.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 12, 2017 09:48AM)
That was a fast few days.

What he didn't invite was your sarcastic remarks in your first post.
Message: Posted by: Tim Zager (Apr 12, 2017 10:32AM)
Mindpro, I have some thoughts on your question, but want to make sure I understand what you're asking...

The observation with your daughter seemed to come from what you were seeing with the "age group" and how they comprehend things on and offline. Then you mentioned you went to the Cafť to see how common this phenomenom is here.

So, are you wondering if it's an "age" thing or an "online" problem, or both?

Hope that makes sense. :-)

-Z
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 13, 2017 08:04AM)
My initial inquiry was about why this happens/is happening. Why are there some people who do not seem to understand or comprehend things, even when clearly stated. Was it a comprehension issue, perhaps an intelligence issue, or maybe a not-caring issue?, From there it went into an age or possible generation or demographic issue/concern. Then it quickly went into a "there are certain people, that their natural default setting seems to be both not comprehending or understanding it in a way other than it was clearly offered, almost taking everything out of its intended context and twisting it to what they want to hear/see something as. Or twisting it for challenging or even malicious purposes. Not based on the facts or input offered, but on a completely different interpretation of the original information. Many others seem to receive it and understand it clearly, yet to these people, you could clearly state the sky is blue, the moon is white and the grass is green and they either don't accept it this way or seem to be looking for an alternate perception, even if clearly incorrect or opposing to the information offered.

These people usually become very confrontational, challenging and vocal and in the online world it leads to flaming and other similar type of behaviors.

Then to go a bit deeper, is those that seem to just do so (or similarly so) just to speak, whether there is knowledge or experience on the issue/topic or not, just to seem to want to be heard or to seem to challenge what exists or has been offered.

It is much more than just not wanting to accept a right from wrong, or alternate from the norm? It is a constant challenging anyone and anything that opposes their beliefs, even if offered from intelligence, experience or established and accepted perspective.

It seems most commonly seen in the 23-37 age group we were seeing, yet I am sure their is a personality type that it is common with in all ages.

I have made my career and built all of my businesses based on understanding a combination of pop culture and relating to and understanding the masses, the majority, the commonly accepted, established and popular general belief of my targets.

Then after this weekend discussion I return here, and of course in four different threads this was existing, and of course a form of it even in this thread soon followed.

As you can see the main topic can go off in several directions very easily. 3-4 people can quickly take the original information offered into an entirely different direction, here online derailing the original topic or direction, and yet with certain people it seems to become an intentional direction of operation and execution. I see it every week here via PMs and emails that many want to contribute to posts and threads but do so via PM as not to be subjected to such ridicule, chastising and perspective. It sadly gets to a point when someone with experience, in this thread for example Danny Doyle, is constantly challenged by someone without the same level of experience (at least in the topic being offered). People come to this forum, Tricky Business, to learn,to seek answers, assistance and direction. You learn from others with experience. Here you also learn to separate fact and experience from opinion. In the many PMs I receive it is recognized that (in this case) Danny has longtime experience in many areas of which we discuss here, yet many will not publicly want to agree with him for fear of being chastised by others as they do to him. So at this point participation and progress are interrupted for the point of not wanting to participate in being subject to such content.

I understand there are many forums here where opinion is what is being called for. It's about bantering around ideas and possibilities, how to do this what accessory or gizmo do you use or do you feel works best for this or that. They are seeking the opinions of others. When I was first invited to participate here it was because of the reason that members come here for advice, sometimes crucial to their advancement and operational success, based on experience. It was the sole reason I was asked to be here based on my knowledge and experience in so many areas of live entertainment business. It was clearly stated and offered and I clearly understood what was expected.

How can some people over and over again, continue to see things not as intended, not as the masses or the rest of the a community, society and general population? It gets to s point where progress stops because of the counter-perception and challenging nature and perspectives takes over and becomes non-productive to those with genuine interest.

There are many layers to it I guess. We were initially seeing it as more of a possible generational thing, but it appears there are many that just constantly like to challenge experience or perhaps authority. Is it just non-acceptance of established experience. Is it believing they can find a "better way" or "opposing way?" Is it challenging those that have progressed beyond themselves? Is it that these people want to believe everyone are the same and all at the same status or level, and fail to recognize different levels of experience and status exist? Or is it just as simply as someone wanting or needing to be heard with an opinion, experienced or not, right or wrong or not?

So to Tim, yes it was first considering was it an age, generation or demographic thing (which could be quite utilized in business operations)? Or is it more prominent as an online thing, or both? There is a relation between the two as well, it appears, as at some point as well as the online aspect directly is part of the world and culture of of the generational aspect.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Apr 13, 2017 09:57PM)
My big question that I always wonder about: why do super successful, experienced performers and businessmen waste their time here? I'm not being argumentative, I just don't get it. I'm here because I'm still building a career and I find an occasional good idea here, but once I'm in full gear, I cannot imagine I'll waste much time checking into Cafť threads. So... why? Especially seeing how frustrating it is for them as indicated by the essays they write. Just doesn't make sense to me.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 10:00PM)
So the idea of giving back does not occur to you? Take what you need and then the next generation can fend for themselves?

This is a valid position to take, and I don't fault you for it if it is true. But can't that be a reason?

I NEVER paid for a magic lesson in my life. EVERYTHING I have been taught is mentorship. Is that bad to want to provide that as well?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 13, 2017 10:14PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, Robb wrote:
My big question that I always wonder about: why do super successful, experienced performers and businessmen waste their time here? I'm not being argumentative, I just don't get it. I'm here because I'm still building a career and I find an occasional good idea here, but once I'm in full gear, I cannot imagine I'll waste much time checking into Cafť threads. So... why? Especially seeing how frustrating it is for them as indicated by the essays they write. Just doesn't make sense to me. [/quote]


Because you are here for one thing, for yourself. Some of us are not here for ourselves, but rather for the art and industry. I've told my story many times. When I was 12 years old I went on a quest for any information I could find on the business of entertainment. It didn't exist then at all. Literally, nothing. Not a spec of it. Even the IRS didn't consider it a legitimate profession.

I was fortunate enough to be taken under the wings by some of the greats in American show business, both star performers, the top names in the business, and their equivilent in many behind the scenes capacities - producers, directors, agents, promoters, managers, etc. from Sinatra to top names of the days.

Many offered to mentor me based on the commitment that when I was in the position that I would never forget my thirst, drive and quest for this knowledge that was closely guarded at the time. I made the promise that I would share with others who wanted or needed this information. This is how an art and industry succeeds and progresses. It is for this reason that I am part of now 14 entertainment forums and my own line of professional resources for over 30 years now from which I share this industry insight, knowledge and experience.

It is much bigger than any one of us, it is about the industry and the business of entertainment.

Sorry this is hard for you to understand. Once you approach what we do from an industry perspective rather than your own perspective, it becomes and entirely different game and levels are available to you you will never experience on your own.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Apr 13, 2017 10:27PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, Robb wrote:
My big question that I always wonder about: why do super successful, experienced performers and businessmen waste their time here? I'm not being argumentative, I just don't get it. I'm here because I'm still building a career and I find an occasional good idea here, but once I'm in full gear, I cannot imagine I'll waste much time checking into Cafť threads. So... why? Especially seeing how frustrating it is for them as indicated by the essays they write. Just doesn't make sense to me. [/quote]

Love this post in so many ways.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 10:35PM)
Robb,

Most super successful, experienced performers donít post much here anymore.
Those that talk a lot are Ďinternetí magicians.

For some itís sort of like an old folkís home. Ainít got nothing else to
do so we go down to the Cafť. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Robb (Apr 14, 2017 08:30AM)
Danny, MindPro, okay, I get that... you want to give back and share your knowledge. YET you are continually frustrated in that endeavor on this site. MindPro and I are members of another forum and there the conversations are much more productive. I truly appreciate the feedback and information I receive on that site. But why cast pearls before swine? That does seem to be your feelings about the Cafť. I mean, I don't see Copperfield here or Maven or even many of the bigger "magician's magicians". Also, do you both sell products or services for magicians and mentalists? If so, excuse me for thinking that perhaps your motives are not entirely altruistic.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 14, 2017 08:45AM)
Never sold a single thing to a magician. I have no plans of selling anything.

This is a good point you make though on many levels.

I do not feel at all as is it is "pearls before swine" though.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Apr 14, 2017 01:33PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, Robb wrote:
My big question that I always wonder about: why do super successful, experienced performers and businessmen waste their time here? [/quote]

We are so fortunate that those with such experience offer to discuss and share their perspectives. Reading Danny's stories about his time at Magic Inc. and Schulien's is interesting and inspiring. He mentions he had mentors. Of course not every successful performer back then chose to mentor him and share trade secrets and so forth. That is probably why it was so special to receive attention from those who were willing. The same is true today. One day I will be sharing the story of my beginnings and how I learned from talent all over the world when such a thing was first possible through what was called social media and a forum called The Magic Cafť. I can imagine some will be uninterested, challenging and not accepting of what I will be sharing. This will not deter me, as I will always remember the exciting time in my life I am currently experiencing. I will not forget that many here who offered advice, direction and products that took my shows to new levels. I will not forget the relationships I fostered that extended beyond just participating here.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 14, 2017 02:13PM)
I should also offer that while I don't sell things it in no way means those who do are wrong.

There was a thread here recently about Lou's course. While I do not have it the purchaser is raving about how great the attention he received was and had been spurred to action and is moving forward.

Just because he sells it in no way means he does not have positive motives. He chooses to put his knowledge together for sale. It is thusly made available to others it normally might not be.

Purchasers seem happy. So in the end I would never question his motives. He seems like an upstanding dude and his students speak for him. So I sort of disagree with that notion.

Others here do it as well. Yes there are those whose motives I might question. But the simple act of selling is certainly not a reason for those questions. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

And I mentioned Lou ONLY because there was that recent thread. I am not paid by Lou. I also am sorry if I left others out. Please do not take that to mean I think poorly of anyone. Please do not be angry with me. And PLEASE no angry PMs.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 14, 2017 02:40PM)
Cafťcheckers,

When you get older and start helping others, please remember this favorite quote of mine by Maya Angelou.
It pretty much hits the nail on the head about how people will remember you.

ďI've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never
forget how you made them feel.Ē


Share all you want, but unless the listener likes and trusts you, you will be just be peeing in the wind.

Tom
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Apr 14, 2017 04:11PM)
[quote]On Apr 14, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Cafťcheckers,
Share all you want, but unless the listener likes and trusts you, you will be just be peeing in the wind.
Tom [/quote]
First, let me say that I hope I am fortunate enough to be in such a position.
Interestingly, one of the important things I learned from my brother with respect to participating here is to pay no attention whether or not we like or agree with other participants. Of coarse, we only take advice we trust to be helpful - but it comes from any and all sides. We have taken free advice - and purchased items from you and many others - never once giving a second thought as to if we liked the "seller" or not. I have not really begun to consider the manner in which I will share or offer information yet, as that would be rather presumptuous of me, but let me say that sharing in a manner that requires the recipient to like and trust me, may be a bit restrictive.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 14, 2017 05:58PM)
To be clear, Iím not saying donít share, just donít be disappointed or get frustrated when you throw stuff out thinking everyone will welcome it. By all means help as many as you can. Helping others is the key to success and itís important to practice the habit of helping when you can. But you canít force your help on anyone. Become a person that others will feel good about Ďaskingí for your help.

But anyway, there is no doth you and your brother will turn out alright. Thanks for what you do here, and I do wish you the best.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 14, 2017 06:35PM)
Something else REALLY important to keep in mind that seems always lost. IF you want the information and want to learn and want these things there is nothing wrong with it. You are free NOT to listen because your feelings get hurt, but it seems as if it is to your own detriment.

You need to learn how to listen, not tell others how to speak. Mostly people confuse what happens in mentor relationships wit teaching. It is not. Absolutely not anything even close. While information is imparted, HOW it is imparted is not so important. When you are a teacher and have a job as a teacher and want to teach people things along those lines then it is your job and it MATTERS how people do that. No doubt.

Getting free advice, and learning from mentors is 100% different. Go to any one of the mentors I had (And there were a LOT of them.) and tell them they have to worry about how they make you feel and it will be the last thing you ever get from them. No question. Not all feel this way, but many do. All the touchy feely nonsense goes right out the window. It is just not important.

WHAT is being learned IS important. THAT is the point. So if you are looking for people to mentor you the above advice in my experience is the absolute worst ever. For the reason that it centers on YOU AND YOUR NEEDS. When in reality what should be focused on is what you are LEARNING. The subject is important, not how you feel at any given moment for whatever reason.

Your mileage may vary and that is ok. Nothing wrong with different experiences. But I just think that wanting free information from someone is fine, but telling them how to give that information to you is crazy.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 14, 2017 07:08PM)
Ok I agree you canít tell the teacher how to teach. But you can choose your teacher, and I personally and most everyone I know, would rather have a teacher that I feel comfortable with. Probably not someone I felt was a jerk. The best teachers teach by example. And as Iíve said before, habits are catching and if youíre not careful you can catch some really bad habits.

Thereís a saying, "Show me who your friends are and Iíll tell you who you are.Ē Same with teachers, show me your teachersÖ.

Choose wisely.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 14, 2017 08:32PM)
Yep choose wisely. For example I would never choose someone who is a whiner and always rah rah rah no matter what. Never try to learn from someone who can't admit they have made a mistake. I would never try to learn from someone without actual experience in the subject matter. Or worse yet with information from decades ago when they failed.

But then again I'm not selling anything so there ya go.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 14, 2017 08:55PM)
[quote]On Apr 14, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Ok I agree you canít tell the teacher how to teach. But you can choose your teacher
Tom [/quote]

Yeah, I've got to disagree with this too. You are making some assumptions that are very limiting and general. You are assuming that there are many teachers out there all teaching the same thing and you have your choice of teacher based on YOUR choice likes, comfort and dislikes. This isn't basic math or sewing we are talking about here.

This is valid if you are a newbie and know little or nothing in a space with many that can teach, train, mentor or assist.

That is nothing like what I and others are talking about here. In reality you don't have such a choice. For example, what I teach, you can not learn elsewhere. So the only choice you have is yes or no you are intersted in me and my content or not. Then of course that is if I choose to accept or work with you. Same for Danny's very specialized knowledge. It isn't available anywhere else from anyone.

Yours is a very basic perception as if all information is available from anyone at any time for your choosing. That is crazy. Also I an others are talking about very specialized and unique information. What Danny learned from his mentors was NOT available from anyone but the person and family that created it. You, the "learner" have no choice or options if you are interested in learning it. You do so on their terms, in their context, at their access and their preferences, in their preference of delivery, not yours. That is absurd.

The problem is much of what you speak of Tom is general and basic business that is common knowledge (not specialized information) that IS available from many sources - google, classes, lessons, books, DVDs, etc. It is not unique or exclusive information. Sure someone may have an exclusive technique, method or approach (for example a surgeon), or a magician that has his own effect or method, but that is a single piece of limited information, not complete and comprehensive, exclusive or little known or uncommon specific information.

Your over-simplifed view of things may be part of the problem in many of your perceptions. Everyone, everything and all information is not equal or the same. The more exclusive the info, the more premium the access and limited availability.

When you are the only one in the world, or the only one living that has such information that puts him in a much different position that what you are referring to and considering.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 14, 2017 09:13PM)
[quote]On Apr 14, 2017, Robb wrote:
Danny, MindPro, okay, I get that... you want to give back and share your knowledge. YET you are continually frustrated in that endeavor on this site. MindPro and I are members of another forum and there the conversations are much more productive. I truly appreciate the feedback and information I receive on that site. But why cast pearls before swine? That does seem to be your feelings about the Cafť. I mean, I don't see Copperfield here or Maven or even many of the bigger "magician's magicians". Also, do you both sell products or services for magicians and mentalists? If so, excuse me for thinking that perhaps your motives are not entirely altruistic. [/quote]

Sorry, you are incorrect Copperifled, Derren Brown, Blaine and Max are on here (Max just recently in the last few weeks posting). While they aren't here under their names, they are here and follow quite regularly. I know this for fact and when asked they typically will tell you the same.

Also I don't sell products to mentalists or magicians. I don't create products for mentalists and magicians. I sell industry resources to entertainers, big difference. Out of the nearly 100 resources I have created only 3 have been made available to this community, and these were base don their longtime constantly asking (and needing) relentlessly for over 10 years. Lets deal in the facts not a perception you have cretaed or choose to believe.

Yes it is very frustrating when you are offering to help people, giving then information of which they don't even recognize the value of and then focus on completely unrealted thoughts, concerns and perceptions. I could care less of someone isn't interested in such content, what I have a problem is is when they prevent others from doing so, participating and making their own perceptions based on anything but facts and reality. People come to this forum to learn and improve their business. If someone isn't here for that reason fine, but let the others that are here for such the ability to be able to without derailment or ridicule. Again, a major difference from a hobbyist or enthusiast and a pro looking to advance and succeed.

If people prefer to learn the hard way or never learn such information at all, that is their perogative.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Apr 14, 2017 09:43PM)
Wow! Mindpro hits another home run- in describing realities of the limitations one has when seeking teachers of specialized learning. One often has to cross cultural and language barriers, let alone personality differences. He wrote: "You, the "learner" have no choice or options if you are interested in learning it. You do so on their terms, in their context, at their access and their preferences, in their preference of delivery, not yours. That is absurd." This is so very true. I have personally experienced this reality many times. You also often have to do their bidding in terms of cost. Qualifying yourself is also not uncommon.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 14, 2017 10:06PM)
Getting back to the main topic;

Mindpro, what you donít understand, and this should fit in with the main topic of the thread, is this is a public forum. All the members are welcome to come here and post. You canít shut people out just because they are not on your level. They have just as much right to be here as you do. A 14 year old with no experience can come here and post his opinion and you have no right to bash him for doing so. That is the rules, not my rules, the Cafť rules. This is not a place for professionals only. The magic community is made up of a wide variety of people with many skill levels.

Sure we should respect those who can make a living with a great hobby like magic. But you canít force respect on people, you have to earn respect. Most of us respect and look up to the big names in magic like Copperfield, Blaine, etc, because they are NOT HERE telling us how great they are and how little the rest of us know.

I can understand your frustration, but you bring that on yourself. You choose to be here, and membership here doesnít come with any special privileges, we are all equal here and should be treated as such.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 14, 2017 10:17PM)
Tom do you read your posts before hitting submit?

In so many cases it is not the kids who are the problem but rather those who want to just bloviate and portend knowledge.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 15, 2017 10:50AM)
Thanks for telling me what I don't understand Tom, however once again, you are wrong. No one ever shuts anyone out for not being on their level. If anything, as Danny has said, it is just the opposite, guys that should understand and know better like yourself create an environment that prevents others from wanting to be here.

Secondly, hobbyists and enthusiasts here on the Cafť are more often than not (with only rare exception) interested in the tricks and performance, they have no desire about the business side of this, so they typically are not here in Tricky Business. This forum is for workers that want to learn, improve or progress their business. Nowhere on the Cafť are they looking for more real information and less opinions than here. So those you claim are "bashed" rarely participate here. On the other hand there are many professionals that DO lurk here, many on daily or regular basis, as I hear from them regularly. Including the several names mentioned above. Including Walter and many others.

When a 14 year old comes here I haven't seen anyone BASH him/her, if anything they are offered guidance and real-world info to help and assist them, usually based on their current level or position. I remember being 12 and being treated like a kid and not being taken seriously in my quest for interest and information on this business, so if anything I have a special understanding for such members IF they ever did wander in here. Young Charlie and Checkers, young Kameron, and many others have been offered the time, patience and understanding in addition to the quality information regularly offered. Again, I think your own perception on this and many other things is quite off. You believe what you want, not what is real.

Same for the entertainers I work with. You have it in your head that I am some unfriendly, conceited, difficult person to work with. I challenge you to find anyone that has worked with me that supports this. Again, your own hangup or belief not based on fact or reality.

There is a lot of delusion here. Nobody is shut out here (unless they are puffing or making false claims which several here will call them out on. This fakery helps no one or and serves no purpose.) Some may not like the real-world advice they are given, some may be hard to digest or accept but that doesn't mean they are shut out. Magicians tend to have difficulty accepting things they don't want to hear or accept.

I KNOW what this topic and post was about, I created it, and no, nothing you've contributed so far is on-track with the intention of this thread. When others chime in in the proper context of the post, you took it in other directions. The only frustrating part is when others try to take the time to explain this to you and you don't get it. You somehow take it as an attack. You seem to think in generalities, rather than the specifics often presented here. You do tend to twist things to your own perception, not necessarily that of the intended. This of course followed by the question Danny (and so many others ask me) regularly ask is why if you are not an entertainer, why if you don't operate and entertainment business, do you always chime in and have so much to say about entertainment business and operations (the topic of this entire forum) when you often clearly are just offer biased opinion and no experience to offer from? It is a legitimate question.

I've defended you many times to many people but they do have a valid point of which Danny asks regularly to never receive a real answer.

People are not all equal, experience and status are not all equal, whether you care to accept it or believe this misconception or not. Information is not all the same either. Perhaps this is at the root of the problems and frustration, but again, I and others choose to deal in reality, while perhaps you and others resist. THAT is the frustrating point.


I truly believe the reason for such a division here isn't status or levels of experience, it is that many here operate from a layman's perspective, while others operate from an entertainer's or professional's perspective. Two completely different set of eyes and mindsets.

The very first thing I say in my resources, coaching and training, is you MUST deal in reality and honesty, otherwise you are only wasting your (and others) time. Perhaps this is difficult for many magicians since they are so based in deception and un-reality, I'm not sure, but they need to learn to separate the two to progress and truly learn and evolve.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 15, 2017 11:18AM)
Mindpro,

I completely agree that people are not all equal; experience and status are not all equal. But my point is, if you want people to respect you then you must treat them as if they were. When you disagree with a post itís not that hard to ignore it, move on, and give your own opinion. Itís all the back and forth 'you are wrong and I am right' that is the distraction here. Go back and look at my last 100 posts and it is clear that Danny or you one come a running with, the you have no experience, I am right and you are wrong stuff. That only starts the war that others donít like. Nobody wants to come here and listen to us bicker among ourselves.

So why donít we make a deal. You and Danny donít question what I say and I wonít question what you say. I will post my opinion and yíall can post yours. The readers are smart enough to choose what they want to believe. I have confidence in each and every one of them. We could have a wonderful place here if we were a team giving advice that the readers could choose from, without having to listen to all the bickering. Deal?

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 15, 2017 11:29AM)
Magicians and Illusionists are a strange type... most are very controlling and want to be involved in every step of a production. They want to be the writer, producer, choreographer, sound designer, lighting designer, business manager, booking agent, marketing director... etc. This is not normal in the entertainment industry. While some artists want more control than others... they don't rely on themselves to be the one who makes every single decision for them.

That may be why there is a bit of resistance in a forum like this... we all think we know best.

I'm not different.. I got into lighting design because I wanted my "illusion show" to have fancy lights (This was when I was in middle school / high school).... and learning lighting sent me into a whole different career.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 15, 2017 12:43PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,

I completely agree that people are not all equal; experience and status are not all equal. But my point is, if you want people to respect you then you must treat them as if they were. When you disagree with a post itís not that hard to ignore it, move on, and give your own opinion. Itís all the back and forth 'you are wrong and I am right' that is the distraction here. Go back and look at my last 100 posts and it is clear that Danny or you one come a running with, the you have no experience, I am right and you are wrong stuff. That only starts the war that others donít like. Nobody wants to come here and listen to us bicker among ourselves.

So why donít we make a deal. You and Danny donít question what I say and I wonít question what you say. I will post my opinion and yíall can post yours. The readers are smart enough to choose what they want to believe. I have confidence in each and every one of them. We could have a wonderful place here if we were a team giving advice that the readers could choose from, without having to listen to all the bickering. Deal?

Tom [/quote]
Funny how you leave out your sarcastic nonsense that starts it all. You add a smiley face like you think it makes it all better.

And by the way bickering takes 2 at least.

So how about you only post about things you have current experience in and so will I? Deal?

See Tom the problem you have is you think it is personal attacks. It isn't. So if I disagree I an free to say so. You then take it personally. Don't do that. That is on you.

You having no experience is just a fact. Sorry.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 15, 2017 12:58PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,
Itís all the back and forth 'you are wrong and I am right' that is the distraction here. Go back and look at my last 100 posts and it is clear that Danny or you one come a running with, the you have no experience, I am right and you are wrong stuff. That only starts the war that others donít like. Nobody wants to come here and listen to us bicker among ourselves.

So why donít we make a deal. You and Danny donít question what I say and I wonít question what you say. I will post my opinion and yíall can post yours. Deal?

Tom [/quote]

No, Tom it would be impossible to make such a "deal." It would be possible perhaps if we were all just dealing with only opinions, but we are not. It might also be quite possible if we are all dealing with apples to apples not kumquats to watermelons. When two people have vast experience and still work in this space each and every day of our lives, and another has little or no experience, it is not an equal conversation or exchange (unless solely based on opinion, and even then, not really because two of their opinions are based still on knowledge and experience and one on solely opinion or imagined perception. Two vastly different things.

This medium allows us all to be here together and have access to each other and the same space, topics, etc. That does not make all equal in their knowledge, experience and offerings. We are NOT all peers just because the medium allows access.

You don't seem to understand in the threads where you don't post your uninformed or inexperienced opinions, the so-called "bickering" you speak of doesn't exist. Same for when a few others here were banned to dropped out, it also immediately disappeared. I'm sorry you can see that.

I could care less if you respect me Tom. It is my content, knowledge and experience that that speaks for me and earns respect. My posts and content is not intended for you. You force that situation. You are not a performer, you don't have an entertainment business, and you seem to offer little to anything based in experience in these two areas. (You have a blog for your opinions, which s great). MANY others do respect my content and have had amazing results just on the free info I offer here. Same for Danny. What is amazing is how many here will (to use your words" Bash us or disagree with us, yet (and Danny will correct me if I'm wrong) will submit to our agencies or production companies to want to be represented by us or to work our venues, clients, tours, etc.

You see, you said it yourself I another post somewhere here that (and I'm paraphrasing here) to you this is just like some old friends casually sitting around shooting the sh*t at a seniors home. To myself and others here this is something completely different for us. It is a community of performers that come here to learn about, improve or evolve their entertainment business. So right from the get go, our foundational interests are not just different, but opposite.

It's also not about "disagreeing" as you seem to perceive it. When someone is offering incorrect, improper or completely blatantly uninformed or misleading information and passing it off as real, it is about calling this out to the community. It is not at all about disagreeing.

You are right about your last 100 posts, they ARE based in you having no experience on the topic as Danny likes to regularly point out, yet you still feel the need to be heard. THAT is distracting.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 15, 2017 01:18PM)
Oh well, you can't say I didn't try.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 15, 2017 01:25PM)
You can still stop being sarcastic, you can still stop bickering and you can still stop giving uninformed opinions.

Why don't you accept my deal Tom? How about that? You didn't try anything except to make certain you can continue to spout uninformed nonsense without challenge.

To quote you "You can't say I didn't try".
Message: Posted by: Magic_son (Apr 19, 2017 01:36AM)
Robb,
Is it against the rules the name the forum that you mentioned?
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Apr 19, 2017 07:36AM)
[quote]On Apr 14, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Sorry, you are incorrect Copperifled, Derren Brown, Blaine and Max are on here (Max just recently in the last few weeks posting). While they aren't here under their names, they are here and follow quite regularly. I know this for fact and when asked they typically will tell you the same.
[/quote]

Copperfield? Really?

I'm not sure why experienced pros post here but I'm sure glad they do. I have learned so much here over the years. And its completely FREE!I like that rate of return.

The allure of facebook has pulled me away recently but I return mainly to see if I can help someone else, give them some free advice. Give back. Its almost funny to me when my advice is ignored or challenged. But then again I have 5 children who ignore my advice or never ask. And frankly, I did the same thing when I was young. I thought I knew it all.

When I was in High School I was preparing to be the next David Copperfield. I couldnít wait to be done with having to learn about things I didnít care about. After I graduated High School, when it was time to set the world on fire, I booked 2 shows! I fell flat on my face! Thatís when my never ending journey of learning from others began.

I am grateful for the people here that are willing to share.

I donít think this lack of comprehension is anything new. There have always been and always will be people that think they are too smart to listen. I feel as though Iíve only begun to learn.