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Topic: If you want to work corporate...
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Apr 12, 2017 11:54PM)
Throw your business card away.

Let me explain why.
1. Your card has your picture on it
2. It lists all the services you do.
3. You treat your card like a sales tool

These are signs you are amateur or a consumer market performer. I have a growing suspicion many magicians copied real estate agents on their cards.

Think about this for a moment before you jump down my throat. Business buyers are more sophisticated and if they have your card it's because you were referred or you have a relationship with them. B2b entertainment services is relationship driven, not consumer volume driven. And if you want to work in that market you need to look like you belong.
You don't know how many times I got business cards from people trying to push me their service or product that ended up in the trash can. A bad business card is toxic for b2b success, it can really cheapen an image.

So in the end get a card that you expect a professional would give you, because they are expecting you to be a professional too.

Don't even get me started on why blogs, twitter, Facebook, social media is a waste of time too.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 12:05AM)
I'm just going to stand back and let you take this bullet fussilad.

While your at it you might add always being "on" and free work to your list.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 13, 2017 08:20AM)
Yeah, this will be interesting to see how this plays out. I will say, two of the most important and significant topics are presented here in the above post, that are not often discussed - the true definition of being a "professional" and the very crucial understanding of consumer vs. professional markets and their differences. This is a topic that really hits home for me. This is exciting.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 09:05AM)
Ok I will fire the first shot.:) I’m sure Danny and Mindpro will quickly remind you that I have zero experience so please take this anyway you want.

Wdavis, Thanks for posting. Now please don’t take this as a slam, just some more thoughts to consider. I do agree with most of what was said, but here are some thoughts to ponder.

First, Corporations come in all shapes and sizes. Many of the smaller ones may be owned by the not so sophisticated person (like myself ) Also many business people can spot a mentalist a mile away trying to hide the fact that he too is just another magician, so that doesn’t help as much as some think.

Next, you right that business is relationship driven. The key is to have the ‘right’ relationship and if you do that, you can promise that you will leave your rabbit at home. Same thing if you are being ‘referred’, there someone is vouching for you, no worries there.

I do agree with the business card, someone sitting at a desk looking at it and knowing nothing about you, it can tell a different story. Best to not have one, or at least not one trying to sell you.

With blogs, twitter, or Facebook, it depends on how you use it. First place references are checked is facebook, so if you use it right, it will close the deal for you. If you don’t have a facebook and the person checking does, they may see that as a problem.

Wdavis, don’t you have a blog? How to you hide it from everyone? Also posts you make on here can be seen by the public.
Again not a slam just some thoughts. Mindpro claims that is why he doesn't use his name on here. I don't buy that because it hurts
his book sales and coaching business on here. But the idea does sound good.

Anyways,
Tom
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Apr 13, 2017 09:09AM)
One previous thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=627249&forum=44

- Donald
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Apr 13, 2017 10:30AM)
Tom,

Thank you for firing the shot. Yes companies come in different shapes and sizes, but In the business world the segmentation for a "corporate market" is done by market capitalization or revenue size.

So a s-corp or Llc that does up to $5 million isn't considered corporate they are flagged as a small business. Middle market is ranges 5-50 million, commercial is 50-500 and corporate is 500+.million. Though lately commercial and corporate have been blending due to M&A shrinking the top. Granted there is a little wiggle room for dollar cut offs between segmentations but this is a general rule of thumb. So, the fact someone incorporates is irrelevant. in my view, saying you work a corporate market implies your dealing within the commercial and corporate segmentation I've outlined above, but if during the conversation it's demonstrated they are just working the small business segment, it's the same as the magician calling herself a mentalist.

My opinion is blogs, SEO, and websites are secondary and they validate you but don't sell you. All the volume driven to your website is useless if they are not the right buyer for your service. Social media sites are more a distraction than a significant revenue channel, corporate buyers don't surf Facebook for an entertainer. They start with their Rolodex then go to an agency. They have a level of expectation and marks to hit. Hiring g you reflects that and Facebook isn't the marketplace for corporate, it is the marketplace for consumers.

Yes I have a blog, on mentaltek, yes I could be better at using it. But the truth is my segmentation,targeting, and positioning are completely distinct for my mentalism performing, mentalist/magician retail, and my consulting firm. I worked very hard to separate the three as each are focused on separate markets with seperate value propositions. I use a stage name for performing and work thru a solely and distinct legal entity for that. Same with mentaltek and my consultancy. Fortunately, my name is so common it helps provide some google proofness. It isn't perfect but yes it helps seperate.

Thanks for posting,
Walter
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Apr 13, 2017 10:38AM)
Donald,

Thanks for your reply,

while related I wanted to seperate the threads for clarify of focus. In the other thread it used a broad brush asking if cards are still relevant and discussed both digital and tangible cards. My view is yes they are relevant,but only when used appropriately. Additionally, I've outlined the 3 largest flaws in most business card designs from performers. Finanlly, the card doesn't matter if its digital or tangible when used and designed appropriately.

One major reason to remove the clutter from the card is now the card capture software for phones synching with databases don't work very well when trying to identify your contact information.

Walter
Message: Posted by: Donald Dunphy (Apr 13, 2017 10:58AM)
BTW, I guess that I'm a "consumer market performer" (not an amateur), because I use business cards, postcards, brochures, giveaways to children in my audiences (with my contact info for their parents), etc., in addition to my website. It specialize in shows for children's audiences and family audiences. It's not uncommon to have people ask me for my business card (or my postcard giveaway, which also has my contact info), after seeing me perform.

Could you please define "consumer market performer" a little bit more? I don't know if I've heard that phrase before.

I know that I'm not a corporate entertainer. But I know a few. I have a sense of what services they offer, what's involved in their work, and what they get paid for their work.

- Donald
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 11:08AM)
Easy. As a matter of fact you just did it.

Mommy is a consumer. AT&T is a business.

When you market to mommies it is possible a business card and all you mention is useful even necessary. When you do things business to business it is often not helpful and even detrimental. This is where experience matters.

Being in consumer markets is not bad. It is just not the same thing and when guys think it is then it is not good.

Worse yet when they pontificate and try to tell others about things they are clueless it hurts the one they are trying to "help".

Working for a small business that has a company picnic is not doing "corporate work" as so many think.

We have seen this here so many times.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Apr 13, 2017 11:11AM)
Donald,
You bring a valid point something I left off in my last post in reply to you. This thread is addressing those that target business clients.

There is another segmentation strategy within business that is retailer, wholesaler, commercial/corporate. Here the segmentation is based on the end user of your services.

This strategy is often combined with the previous one usually to identify retailers when a company has different market footprints. And leads to some less than transparent marketing by magicians/Mentalist's. I remember a performer claiming he performed corporate and did a gig for Verizon, later it came to light he performed a Christmas party for one of the retail stores. Was what he did wrong, no, misleading to the consumer market but not wrong. Corporate buyers will channel check and he killed his chances of getting real corporate work.

Consumer markets are individual buyers for personal consumption. So you and me. We are consumers every time we shop for ourselves at the grocery store, Verizon, Walmart, etc. we are always buying retail. A consumer market performer is one that caters to consumers. So if I wanted to hire a magician, that magician is serving the consumer market.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 11:18AM)
THAT is the point. When guys do local fetal store business and claim to have worked for the parent company it is dumb. It is so easy for them to check, and they do check. When that happens you are done.

Now the truly sad part is most don't know this even happens. They do it not to be deceptive, but out of ignorance and it can get expensive. Most don't know the difference.

It is the difference in a Ted Talk and TedX. Heck some here didn't know the difference. Guys just don't do the diligence necessity any more.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 13, 2017 11:42AM)
When I helped plan variety entertainment for small company picnics, and company retreats I thought that was "working corporate shows" as well.

Then another company I work started sending me out to do lighting design for real corporate events.... The difference is huge.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 12:49PM)
Thanks Walter

Just another thought to throw out there, but do magicians even market directly to the really huge corps?
Don’t most of those companies just go through a booking agency? And don’t the magicians capable of doing
these type shows have managers that do the marketing work for them?

You would think that would be the case. I can't see a lot on here mailing postcards to Microsoft. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 12:56PM)
So now your changing your tune?

You get to bigger companies differently but you still get to them.

And Don Alan didn't have a manager. Eddie Tulloch didn't and so on. So no they don't generally have managers.

Also it is quite rare for managers to do marketing in any capacity.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 01:18PM)
Danny,

Eddie Tullock and Don Alan worked many years ago, when we didn’t have computers, facebook, etc.
Things are different today. Besides they were insiders and didn’t need to break into that market.
They had very little marketing to do.

Yes if one wants to wait 30 years until you have the reputation then it’s not as hard for those who qualify.
But the topic here is marketing to businesses today.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 01:22PM)
It is possible without that 30 years experience you are of little value to the corporation.

And in reality it is not that much different Tom. Having never experienced it though you have no idea.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 01:33PM)
So they only hire old people? :)

As I’ve said before, experience means very little nowadays, it’s more about being qualified. A corporation had much
rather have a younger good looking qualified person than a........but let’s not change the subject here and try and
stay on topic this time without the flaming.


Tom
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Apr 13, 2017 01:39PM)
Tom,

all technology does is speed means of communication. It doesn't replace the foundation of networking. A huge mistake in B2b is the magician meeting someone and qualifying herself by showing a trick or "being always on." B2b is relationship driven. When you network your developing a relationship not pitching immediately. To use the crude example of the young man who asks every girl to sleep with him, eventually he gets a yes, but that's not going to establish a relationship of substance and long term value. Which ties back to the business card, it's a reminder of the relationship and value you bring based on your existing relationship. So pictures and sales offerings etc aren't needed on them. Save those for your press kit. If they are interested in you they will ask for it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 01:51PM)
Tom every word you wrote in that last post is wrong. Business to business is about experience not looks.

Why do you continue to comment when you have no idea what you are saying?

It is about relationships, not business cards and tech or youth.

Mostly it is about keeping contacts polished.

You do not do shows much less business to business. Why continue?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 02:03PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, WDavis wrote:
Tom,

all technology does is speed means of communication. It doesn't replace the foundation of networking. A huge mistake in B2b is the magician meeting someone and qualifying herself by showing a trick or "being always on." B2b is relationship driven. When you network your developing a relationship not pitching immediately. To use the crude example of the young man who asks every girl to sleep with him, eventually he gets a yes, but that's not going to establish a relationship of substance and long term value. Which ties back to the business card, it's a reminder of the relationship and value you bring based on your existing relationship. So pictures and sales offerings etc aren't needed on them. Save those for your press kit. If they are interested in you they will ask for it. [/quote]

I agree.

But I will add, technology is used so much in the business world today it’s important to at least try and stay up to date as much as you can in this new world of ours. Doesn’t mean you need to be a computer guru but your understanding of it will most likely help, even if it is in a small way, in qualifying you.

Thanks Walter, a great topic.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 02:27PM)
Who but you said anything about not keeping up?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 03:15PM)
Danny at one time I was considered, and turned it down, for a position as corporate magician for Fleming Foods, one of the world’s largest food wholesalers. At the time I was doing shows for some of the Piggly Wiggly groups here in the south which was a part of Fleming Foods. So I know a little about building relationships to position yourself. I’ve moved up the relationship ladder many times in my life to get what I wanted. If you would ever allow me to talk you might just learn something. But the odds of that happening are not good. Is It?

Anyways, Walter sorry for having to ramble on your thread. Maybe others can add something to it too.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 03:21PM)
So this is you NOT talking?

Tom you have no experience.

Again I ask who but you said not to keep up?

But don't forget it was YOU who wanted to be sarcastic about me and Mindoro. Hi figure.

How is it you can be so woefully uninformed about a market you were so close to being the undisputed king of?

And if things have changed much your out dated experience from last century must be as well.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 13, 2017 06:05PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, Donald Dunphy wrote:
BTW, I guess that I'm a "consumer market performer" (not an amateur), because I use business cards, postcards, brochures, giveaways to children in my audiences (with my contact info for their parents), etc., in addition to my website. It specialize in shows for children's audiences and family audiences. It's not uncommon to have people ask me for my business card (or my postcard giveaway, which also has my contact info), after seeing me perform.

Could you please define "consumer market performer" a little bit more? I don't know if I've heard that phrase before.

- Donald [/quote]


I think it is great that Donald has asked this question and sincerely wants to understand this. I mention consumer vs. Professional markets here quite regularly. When I do several things ALWAYS happen. People think I am trying to create a divide between performers or levels of performers (which I am not), or worse yet, incorrectly believe I am trying to put myself on a level above or better than others. Both couldn't be more wrong.

This is not an opinion, it is not something I have manufactured or made up but a true component of entertainment business.

Anytime consumer vs. professional markets comes up, it is almost immediately taken as a dig towards kids performers. It certainly is not. It is much more a part of a greater element of a performer being completely honest with themselves about their level and positioning and of course the markets they serve. This is one of the foundational elements that must be determined and understood before proceeding with ones entertainment business.

Right along with this comes the issue of professionalism. There is a common misconception that professionalism only involves or applies to full-timer workers. Again, couldn't be further from the truth. I have a 50 point criteria of what composes a "professional." Many miss the boat or have their own false belief that they accept. Again, not the industry's perspective.

It is so nice to see Donald truly asking to learn more about this rather than taking the soooo typical position of "being talked down to" or immediately accepting this as a detriment or swipe towards those working the consumer markets.

The truth is many performers DO NOT deal in actual reality. Not about them, their performance, their business or the markets and clients they serve. This is a harsh reality, but one well worth ones time and understanding. Instead they choose to deal in their PERCEIVED reality of something they truly do not understand. The problem then of course is that everything the do is then based upon this misbelief in the first place. I've said it here before and will continue to speak about it, entertainers are delusional. They often don't understand the true picture. Instead they accept the fake picture that best serves them, that they WANT TO believe. It is often not reality. I see it weekly, time and time again.

Rather than getting defensive or going on the attack, (or focusing on why doesn't this guy post under his real name!),it is about time someone is taking the time to understand this proven concept. Kudos to Donald.

To add to Walter & Danny's understanding, consumer and professional markets, these can also be defined and identified not only by the buyer, but by the market themselves, If they have professional credentials, associations, trade events and publications, qualifying and acceptance criteria, industry-specific resources, techniques and qualifications, these are signs of professional markets. Of course the level of which the operate on is also a great identifying factor. The only place this becomes slightly blurry is in markets that appear to be one way and are actually the opposite or markets that appear that they could be both. Again the right perspective and understanding easily clears this up.

In my Working With Agents & Agency's Book I identify many of the common misconceptions, of course including the one Tom offered about professional markets using agencies. In my recent industry speaking appearance and the live training seminar I hosted in Las Vegas the issue of doing working company picnics and holiday events ARE NOT working the corporate market was prominent. Once explained, it was clear as a bell to many. Then Danny's take on because you work for the local affiliate on a consumer level, DOES NOT again make you a corporate performer.

This is exactly the same as the guys that use a Happy Amp and falsely believes they are using a professional sound system. Not in any way a dig toward Happy Amp, but rather a fact regarding the use and understanding of "a professional sound system." Again this too has been well-docmented in my previous posts.

It would be great if more people would be open to learning this real and valuable stuff, rather than defending their incorrct, uninformed opinions.

Walter has brought to the fore several great topics that most here could learn from if they would just be open minded and drop the defensiveness.

Great topics Walter.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 06:40PM)
Mindpro, I am not being defensive, other than responding to the personal attacks from Danny.

I too have never heard of the term ‘consumer market’ used the way you and Danny use it here.
Maybe you could show us someplace else that it is used that way. Any links?

In the business world the words consumer market is used to describe buyers who purchase goods and
services for consumption. Where in the entertainment industry is it used this way other than maybe describing
record, or dvd sales made to the public?

Just curious really.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 07:08PM)
I thought you had so much experience in this?

And it is not just Mindoro and I who use it.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 07:30PM)
No I don’t have experience using it that way, never used it once that way.
So I’m simply asking, who else using it that way?

It certainly sounds belittling when used like it is sometimes used here, just thought now
would be a good time to prove that it is being used that way in other places. But no big deal.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 07:38PM)
You claim to have experience in it though. Obviously not.

https://masterful-marketing.com/marketing-b2b-vs-b2c/
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 13, 2017 08:03PM)
Back on topic...

Business Cards in Corporate Market -

I agree that it shouldn't list the services, but I'm not sure I agree that it should not have a photo. "Magician, Illusionist, Juggler, Acrobat, Mentalist" - what do you put on your card? The word "Entertainer" is too broad a term, and any of the above specifics point to stereotype images that could be good or bad. I think it would be wise to put an image with the title.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 13, 2017 09:11PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I too have never heard of the term ‘consumer market’ used the way you and Danny use it here.
Maybe you could show us someplace else that it is used that way. Any links?

Tom [/quote]


No. I'm not in the business of looking up links to have to prove information to others. I teach, train and educate, not convince. I also can teach one that you put on your sock before your shoe, but again, I don't have any links to provide to prove the facts.

Using electronics for example, let's say the VCR that was a staple for two decades. There were consumer VCRs that were used for home use, and professional VCRs that were used in television, media outlets and professional video production services. Then (to complicate matters even worse) there was a Prosumer line by Panasonic, JVC, Sony and several others. Not directly related, but a similar example on a more general level.

It has been quite common knowledge in the professional entertainment industry for decades. I would say I first learned of it from Steve Allen and Phyllis Diller in probably the late 70s or early 80s.

This is another reason for many misconceptions among performers in pricing. For example, using magicians, some will hear that "Mr. Magic" gets $10,000 for a 45 minute corporate event. Yet "Mr. Magic Café Magician" only gets $550 for a "corporate event." Then Mr. Magic Café Magician comes on the forum to proclaim "I don't believe Mr. Magic gets anywhere near $10,000 for a booking. Impossible. Implying he is a liar, and internet phoney and so on. In reality Mr. Magic does get 10K a show in the real corporate market. And no, there is no way Mr. Magic Café Magician could ever do so working a Christmas Party for the local T-mobile store. They are comparing watermelons and kumquats. Two entirely different things. The professional Mr. Magic working the professional market realizes this (and feels no need to prove or defend himself as it is truly his reality). Yet Mr. Magic Café Magician is not working the corporate market, in actuality he is working a consumer market bookings that only pays several hundred dollars. Yet Mr. Magic Café Magician will never learn or possibly understand this.

Two entirely different things. Yet the only one that doesn't realize it is the one asking for proof, and flinging untruths because of his lack of knowledge and understanding. Also likely due to his lack of professionalism.

This premise exists on almost every element of entertainment business - marketing, selling, exhibiting, promoting, production, bookings, clients, and literally every element. Even feedback, perception and testimonials. There are consumer testimonials and professional testimonials. Consumer credits and professional credits. Consumer promotional materials and videos, and professional promo and videos. The list goes on an on. And no, most performers don't have a clue. Many only exist on a consumer level because of the pre-explained default way most get started in the business.

They never evolve to the professional level in this context. Yet they believe otherwise.

Is this a swipe or dig to consumer-level performers, no not at all and not intended in any way. It also isn't a slam toward magicians, although the thinking is quite common among magicians. But it is a reality that exists and is typically only a problem with consumer-level entertainers.

The fact that it is only offered or discussed by a very few, is most pros will not take the time or have the patience to explain this and assist others. This is why it is so frustrating when some of do, that it is not recognized, appreciated and even realized. As I've said before this creates very limited perspectives. This is also why all advice and educational materials are not the same in any way. Most only go into consumer markets or worse yet falsely mislead performers to believe we all approach and operate the same on the same level. This is literally setting most up for complete failure. This is not operating from a position of complete honesty. It would be nearly impossible to succeed. This is why courses on say being a restaurant magician is only limiting to a very small segment of a consumer market. Most of these guys that claim they work professional markets do not, they work company events on a consumer level. Such then, everything they claim to teach, is limiting and often ineffective to someone who has even slightly different interests.

This is exactly why I have created my materials and am selective as to who I let have access to them, because I have yet to see a single person, course or program that gets into this properly from the industry perspective - period.

Again, this is why this is so exciting that Walter has brought this to the fore as I and one or two others have before. This is not run of the mill information. I get many students that want to know the holy grail or secret sauce. They quickly learn it doesn't exist BUT this would be the closest thing to that.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 09:32PM)
The thing that is frustrating is that some think if it is not in their experience it does not exist. This is part of why not all experience is relevant.

Then they take that lack of understanding and apply it and rather than LEARN something they just shout down those who do know. Then blame others for ego issues or for being mean or any other number of crazy claims simply because THEY don't understand.

The worst thing is they then pass that lack of understanding on to others based on "I have the right to my opinion". Never backing off, never learning, just pushing an agenda of wanting to be heard and taken seriously.

I am fairly well implanted Business to Business. BUT that is where the sales take place. The end user is consumer. So it is a strange amalgam of the two that is not so common.

But the fact is that there are 2 different ways to operate! One I worry about the relationships with people. In the next email it is more "product" driven. In our case shows. I bounce back and forth between the two all day. And make NO mistake it is a HUGE difference. I work for some of the biggest corporations on the planet. No doubt the business card is not really used in many instances for that.

It is not easy to want to learn as we get older. It is just so easy to think we don't have to because X has been working. It is a trap.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 09:54PM)
Wow, you ask a simply question and you get lectured on your lack of experience and everything else in the book.
Are all the ‘professionals’ in the know like this? Oh never mind, I already know that answer.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 13, 2017 10:00PM)
First, I wasn't referring to you other than the first point. Secondly, I wasn't lecturing but rather explaining the point. Seems you missed it or twisted it to be something other than intended. Out of all of that it's sad if that's all you got from it. Kinda proves my point I guess.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 10:01PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Oh never mind, I already know that answer.

Tom [/quote]

This is the heart of your problem.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 10:13PM)
Donald said he had never heard that phrase used, and then I said I haven’t either.
I was only trying to ask a simply question and find a simply answer.

Doesn’t seem to be a simply answer here oh. But that's ok.
Not words I would want to use anyway.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 13, 2017 10:23PM)
It is very simple as both Walter and I have explained. It's your accepting and perhaps understanding of the answers being offered you are not seeming to get.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 10:23PM)
The point is that there is a link I gave you that you can read. Simply enough for you?

If you can't keep up that is a you problem.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 13, 2017 10:27PM)
Danny, that link had nothing to do with performing magic.
Had I sent someone there, it would be, "the entertainment business is different."

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 13, 2017 10:37PM)
You asked the difference on B2B and consumer markets.

You don't perform magic so it should be prefect for you.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 06:33PM)
Reading back over this thread and it’s no big deal but I do want to correct the not having a manager thing. Somewhere back there Danny said most don’t use a manager. And this could be hurtful to many here wanting to learn. To completely rule out the idea of having a manager is not a good idea at all.

Many of the skilled magicians of yesteryear never made it and died broke simply because they weren’t good with the business details. Same today, most magicians know very little about running a successful business. They NEED someone not with magic experience, but with business experience to guide them along the way. This is why I recommend not putting all your eggs in one basket by only seeking advice from other magicians. Following the crowd only puts you behind them. Never be afraid to go outside your comfort zone and learn from normal people, especially if you wanting to do business with other businesses or plan on working the trade shows. Many highly skilled magicians have no people skills off stage, I won’t call names here but to put it mildly some are know it all jerks and can’t control it out in the real world.

And yes Eddie Tullock did indeed have a manager! His name was Bob Snowdell. 90 percent of Eddie's work came through Bob.

Just wanted to throw that thought in before this topic disappeared.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 07:15PM)
Define what you mean by manager, and tell us exactly what he does and how much they are paid.

Please Tom I'm really anxious to learn from your vast experience in this realm.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 07:38PM)
I know you are just waiting, :)

They are paid very well and most are like ghost-writers, most outsiders never hear about them.
Almost like a silent partner. They’re not in it for the fame.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 08:37PM)
Not any answer at all Tom. Please answer my question. In anxious to learn.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 09:13PM)
Manager: a person responsible for controlling or administering all or part of a company or similar organization.
(Not to be confused with an agent.)

But, Danny regardless of what I say you are going to disagree and make something out of it. So why don’t you go ahead and tell us how it all works. Spare us the back and forth this time.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 11:11PM)
No Tom in this context what is a manager. Teach me.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (May 10, 2017 01:48AM)
I do consider myself in an atypical position but when I was making most of my living doing corporate events I had a manager so he handled most of the details of what I did but at that point I was going on an existing reputation for my show. I was doing a 45 minute show for corporate events and banquets. At that time the top corporate entertainer was Danny Ganz who few outside of the corporate world had ever heard of yet he was the top of the heap in that market. I was happy doing my illusion show, sometimes with custom elements I developed for the individual events. Keith Evens managed me as well as Robert Goulet, Dennis James and many others that most of you will have never heard of. At that point they were headlining the Leisure World Circuit but still very much in demand. I will say that the further up the ladder you got, the less important a business card was. The people that mattered always knew how to get to you. The top people always talk to each other. It's a smaller group as you near the top of the pyramid.

I'll readily admit that was many years ago so I don't have any insight on social media, blogging and its related marketing potential. At this point, if someone wants me, they know how to reach me.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 10, 2017 07:33AM)
Thanks Ray. Yes I think you see managers more within the corporate world and yes there are a lot of important unheard of people out there. It is all about relationships, you have to have them to survive in the corporate market for sure.

Many years ago when I did my little touring illusion show doing fundraising shows I had a manager. A busy performer doesn’t have time to do it all, especially in my case where I was providing all the fundraising, promoting, ticket sales, etc, using my own phone crew. Some could say the correct word was promoter and not manager and that might be true in some cases.

I’m certainly not saying everyone should hire a manager just that they do exist and it shouldn't be ruled out. I think if the truth was known many today have managers making the important arrangements and just won’t admit it, they call’em wives. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2017 07:51AM)
Tom you have no clue what a manager is do you? Yet you encourage everyone to hire one.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 10, 2017 08:06AM)
Danny, I have no idea how YOU would describe a manager. And no where have I encouraged anybody.

I’ve already said a manager is a person responsible for controlling or administering all or part of the company details.
Of course the duties could be different with every company/person. The owner writes the rules. So yes, your manager could have a completely different job than my manager.

But that's my last response to your posts Danny. No more having to defend myself with you.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2017 10:04AM)
Thank God.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (May 13, 2017 09:08PM)
[quote]On Apr 12, 2017, WDavis wrote:

Don't even get me started on why blogs, twitter, Facebook, social media is a waste of time too. [/quote]

Except the whole part where with the right piece of content you can run a targeted ad on FB against the employees of a given company and get results.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 13, 2017 10:10PM)
[quote]On May 13, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]On Apr 12, 2017, WDavis wrote:

Don't even get me started on why blogs, twitter, Facebook, social media is a waste of time too. [/quote]

Except the whole part where with the right piece of content you can run a targeted ad on FB against the employees of a given company and get results. [/quote]

Corporate Economic buyers don't puruse Facebook looking for professional services, additionally, if you are targeting employees then your not working targeting the right person. Employees don't buy, They lack the authority. Let Clint Eastwood explain.

https://youtu.be/s2w9X_tHU7k

Now if we look at it from opportunity cost. Same money spent to meet corporate economic buyers vs meeting a lower level employee, my money goes to corporate economic buyers.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (May 14, 2017 08:23AM)
[quote]On May 13, 2017, WDavis wrote:
[quote]On May 13, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]On Apr 12, 2017, WDavis wrote:

Don't even get me started on why blogs, twitter, Facebook, social media is a waste of time too. [/quote]

Except the whole part where with the right piece of content you can run a targeted ad on FB against the employees of a given company and get results. [/quote]

Corporate Economic buyers don't puruse Facebook looking for professional services, additionally, if you are targeting employees then your not working targeting the right person. Employees don't buy, They lack the authority. Let Clint Eastwood explain.

https://youtu.be/s2w9X_tHU7k

Now if we look at it from opportunity cost. Same money spent to meet corporate economic buyers vs meeting a lower level employee, my money goes to corporate economic buyers. [/quote]


You've never executed a FB ad in this manner, have you? So you have an opinion on something you've never even tried. How can your opinion have any validity without having ever tasted it?

Going a step further on the social media world that you believe is a waste of time...in a B2B world...you can actually know the name of your customer. I, along with many others in the B2B world are actively converting using these platforms.

You're perfectly free to think social media platforms are a waste of time. But you think that because you don't understand them.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 14, 2017 08:42AM)
I don’t know Walter, Facebook is too huge to completely ignore it, and while the CEO himself may not be there you can bet those important people surrounding him/her are. I don’t think anybody goes there looking to purchase anything, it just happens. Much like nobody turns on the TV to watch the commercials :) but the difference is with Facebook you can choose which commercials you want to watch. Besides the best marketing never comes across as an ad anyway, its a place to connect.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 14, 2017 10:21AM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
How can your opinion have any validity without having ever tasted it?
[/quote]

This extends well beyond opinions on Facebook right?

If this is the new standard that is going to be adopted there will be far fewer posts on The Magic Café.

I an all for it though.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 14, 2017 10:45AM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:

You've never executed a FB ad in this manner, have you? So you have an opinion on something you've never even tried. How can your opinion have any validity without having ever tasted it? [/quote]

Robert, no I haven't.

Yes I do have an opinion on something I've never tried [b] because I interviewed (s=75) board of directors, ceos, senior executives with buying authority if they would ever buy based on social media.[/b]

the resounding answer was NO, they wouldn't. I followed up and asked if they ever hired a professional service from social media, the response was social media was never a considering factor for the buyer. An employee may have brought a name to them from social media, but those people were never on the short list because of social media, but rather because of other relationship based factors.
[quote]
Going a step further on the social media world that you believe is a waste of time...in a B2B world...you can actually know the name of your customer.[/quote]
I don't understand what you are saying here? In b2b, knowing your customers/prospects name is a fundamental requirement for relationship based business. So, how does social media add any value?

[quote] I, along with many others in the B2B world are actively converting using these platforms. [/quote] You asked me how I could have an opinion, I would like to ask you to clarify:
What are you selling thru social media?
What are converting to and from?

[quote]You're perfectly free to think social media platforms are a waste of time. But you think that because you don't understand them. [/quote] I understand them. They are not complicated. An analogy would be a social media user is no different than someone on a soap box in the town square yelling to the crowds their message. It's simply a question of return on investment for credibility. Social media provides very little credibility to start. It's only after strong brands are established does social media add credibility. What is more likely to occur is social media destroys credibility. I've fired and not hired people because of social media posts. I find more value from other channels comparatively
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 14, 2017 11:07AM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I don’t know Walter, Facebook is too huge to completely ignore it, and while the CEO himself may not be there you can bet those important people surrounding him/her are. I don’t think anybody goes there looking to purchase anything, it just happens. Much like nobody turns on the TV to watch the commercials :) but the difference is with Facebook you can choose which commercials you want to watch. Besides the best marketing never comes across as an ad anyway, its a place to connect.


Tom [/quote]
I'm not say ignore Facebook. I'm saying in the b2b world, decisions are not impulse buys like in the b2c. A social media effort will have little return for a professional service provider in a b2b environment.

my point is return on investment, social media is a less effective medium for entertainers in b2b. It's like fishing, know your fish habits, the environment they swim, and present your hook in a way that appeals to them. My fish, business executives with p&l authority don't swim social media and if they are in it they aren't biting, no matter the bait I use in it. Rather if I know my buyers swim in a specific waters (trade journals etc) I will put my hook there. Now my hook there is also dependent on their habits, but I found the best return from getting interviewed or quoted by others
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 14, 2017 11:08AM)
In the professional markets world there are industry-specific resources, networks and tools that are almost always utilized for conducting such businesses, and no social media is not one of them. Rarely would any professionals seek anything beyond these resources. They have been created specifically for these people, their industries and these purposes.

That is why social media is likely to never penetrate such markets because in order to do so they would have to overpower these industry resources. It is very unlikely to do that and I think FB execs understand this. They are a SOCIAL network, that is their platform and what hey do best. I would think they have little interest in penetrating established professional industry resources.

I think the entertainer interested in such markets would have time better spent learning about these industry resources and networks and trying to put their efforts into them more than social media.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 14, 2017 11:20AM)
To add to Walters analogy when fishing with a lot of other boats, it spooks the fish. They go to calmer waters.

I personally prefer to fish where there are fewer boats. Your bait gets a much better opportunity to be seen.

No Tom this does not mean ignore social media. I like the way you try to apply things nobody said and then prove someone wrong.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (May 14, 2017 11:23AM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, WDavis wrote:
[quote]On May 14, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:

You've never executed a FB ad in this manner, have you? So you have an opinion on something you've never even tried. How can your opinion have any validity without having ever tasted it? [/quote]

Robert, no I haven't.

Yes I do have an opinion on something I've never tried [b] because I interviewed (s=75) board of directors, ceos, senior executives with buying authority if they would ever buy based on social media.[/b]

the resounding answer was NO, they wouldn't. I followed up and asked if they ever hired a professional service from social media, the response was social media was never a considering factor for the buyer. An employee may have brought a name to them from social media, but those people were never on the short list because of social media, but rather because of other relationship based factors.
[quote]
Going a step further on the social media world that you believe is a waste of time...in a B2B world...you can actually know the name of your customer.[/quote]
I don't understand what you are saying here? In b2b, knowing your customers/prospects name is a fundamental requirement for relationship based business. So, how does social media add any value?

[quote] I, along with many others in the B2B world are actively converting using these platforms. [/quote] You asked me how I could have an opinion, I would like to ask you to clarify:
What are you selling thru social media?
What are converting to and from?

[quote]You're perfectly free to think social media platforms are a waste of time. But you think that because you don't understand them. [/quote] I understand them. They are not complicated. An analogy would be a social media user is no different than someone on a soap box in the town square yelling to the crowds their message. It's simply a question of return on investment for credibility. Social media provides very little credibility to start. It's only after strong brands are established does social media add credibility. What is more likely to occur is social media destroys credibility. I've fired and not hired people because of social media posts. I find more value from other channels comparatively [/quote]


Based on your analogy, I know you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to utilizing digital marketing. A better analogy would be the guy in town square speaking directly to the people who have interest in his product. But as you said, you've never deployed a single ad in the space, so you wouldn't know this.

Your last sentence explains your entire position. "YOU" find more value from other channels. Social media is a waste of time "for YOU." And that's fine. But to dismiss it outright just shows ignorance of the abilities these platforms have.

Just to spell it out for you, of the last $200,000 or so in revenue my company has generated, a bit over $50k occurred specifically due to these platforms you call "a waste of time."

That's real. You may not believe it because you still believe Facebook is nothing more than vanity and cat videos and therefore a waste of time. That's fine.

Doesn't actually matter one way or the other to me. I just wanted to add a different perspective to this discussion for future readers. Hopefully they won't dismiss the value of these platforms so easily.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (May 14, 2017 11:29AM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
In the professional markets world there are industry-specific resources, networks and tools that are almost always utilized for conducting such businesses, and no social media is not one of them. Rarely would any professionals seek anything beyond these resources. They have been created specifically for these people, their industries and these purposes.

That is why social media is likely to never penetrate such markets because in order to do so they would have to overpower these industry resources. It is very unlikely to do that and I think FB execs understand this. They are a SOCIAL network, that is their platform and what hey do best. I would think they have little interest in penetrating established professional industry resources.

I think the entertainer interested in such markets would have time better spent learning about these industry resources and networks and trying to put their efforts into them more than social media. [/quote]

They're already more cost effective than those industry resources. I'll take a highly targeted Facebook ad over an over-priced banner ad on any industry-specific website without hesitation.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 14, 2017 11:45AM)
Bill Gates was on facebook this morning. He often encourages others to use facebook. I swiped the post below that he made Wednesday. He posted a picture of him and Warren Buffet sitting together with a red nose on.:)

“This year, our foundation will match up to $1 million in donations for Red Nose Day to help ensure kids are safe, healthy, educated, and empowered. Participate with your friends by setting up your own Facebook fundraiser for Red Nose Day USA or donate directly to Red Nose Day USA. Participate with your friends by setting up your own Facebook fundraiser for Red Nose Day USA or donate directly to Red Nose Day USA.”

Not saying it will ever happen, it won’t, but if I were scheduled to perform in front of Bill Gates or any other big name CEO the first place I would head to do my homework on them would be Facebook. Same thing if I were intending to reach out to them in some other way.

Also worth noting CEO’s can and do often explore facebook without you ever knowing it. And let us not forget that the one that does the actual hiring is usually someone the CEO appointed to do that.

Tom
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 14, 2017 12:22PM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Based on your analogy, I know you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to utilizing digital marketing. A better analogy would be the guy in town square speaking directly to the people who have interest in his product. But as you said, you've never deployed a single ad in the space, so you wouldn't know this. [/quote]

your revision doesn't alter anything Robert. If you go to a town square and people are yelling a message/selling a product. Those that stop and listen are interested, but you have no control over who specifically gets to hear ur message. And yes I understand you can do targeted ads that gives you some control over certain attributes, but that doesn't mean you are certain they really hear your message.

[quote]
Your last sentence explains your entire position. "YOU" find more value from other channels. Social media is a waste of time "for YOU." And that's fine. But to dismiss it outright just shows ignorance of the abilities these platforms have. [/quote] Robert I'm not dismissing it outright, they have a purpose and value, but like you said, I find their value relatively low when compared to other channels of communication in a b2b market for professional services. See I believe social media platforms are supports to branding, but only after a strong brand is established. Prior to that, social media efforts reduce or have minimal impact to credibility. Furthermore, most people are not professionals and don't have the branding theming or consistency of image to convey across social media and inadvertently undermine branding efforts.

[quote]
Just to spell it out for you, of the last $200,000 or so in revenue my company has generated, a bit over $50k occurred specifically due to these platforms you call "a waste of time."[/quote] your revenue has no context is the $200k lifetime earnings, yearly, quarterly, monthly, etc. without time duration there is no true gauge of impact of the channel performance. Additionally, you haven't answered what the market you are selling in. How can it be compared to professional services. Are these entertainment revenue from booked corporate gigs generated from a Facebook ad or some other professional service. If not I fail to see how it is relevant.

[quote]
That's real. You may not believe it because you still believe Facebook is nothing more than vanity and cat videos and therefore a waste of time. That's fine.

Doesn't actually matter one way or the other to me. I just wanted to add a different perspective to this discussion for future readers. Hopefully they won't dismiss the value of these platforms so easily. [/quote]

Robert, I am not dismissing the value of the platform. I disagree with you on the value in a b2b market for professional services, specifically for entertainers. Tell us what your company does as it relates to the entertainment industry. Specifically, who do they help? What do the help with? How do they do it? Prove me wrong about social media for b2b beyond social media companies selling business social media services.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 14, 2017 12:27PM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:

They're already more cost effective than those industry resources. I'll take a highly targeted Facebook ad over an over-priced banner ad on any industry-specific website without hesitation. [/quote]

Cost effectiveness is dependent on Profits generated. But to your point about better options, better to be quoted/interviewed in the journal/website then any paid advert.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (May 14, 2017 12:34PM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, WDavis
your revenue has no context is the $200k lifetime earnings, yearly, quarterly, monthly, etc. without time duration there is no true gauge of impact of the channel performance. Additionally, you haven't answered what the market you are selling in. How can it be compared to professional services. Are these entertainment revenue from booked corporate gigs generated from a Facebook ad or some other professional service. If not I fail to see how it is relevant. [/quote]

I think it is also important to consider how long one has been in a particular market to consider ROI on any strategy.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 14, 2017 12:47PM)
Charlie,
Great point.
I would refine your statement to say how long one has been deploying the strategy in a particular market.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 14, 2017 01:09PM)
I would also add that we need to know how much PROFIT it generated.

I don't generally ask about this but when someone wants to throw out money to credential an opinion it is worth knowing what that number represents.

Over what period of tint is that? When did it start to generate money? What OTHER platforms are being used and how can you specifically trace it to that? How much money and time was spent to generate that and what other opportunity was lost while pursuing that strategy?

And finally how much of that is kept as profit? If you generate 50 grand and 20% is profit (A fairly standard business model.) then you have made 10 grand. How much time did it take to generate 10 grand?

These are context questions and if you want to brag about numbers they should be answered in order to provide context. Otherwise the numbers are meaningless. These are numbers that should be at the fingertips of business owners of any stripe. You don't have to answer them, I am just saying that numbers with no context are meaningless.

People throw around numbers all the time. I just wish to see context for those numbers is all.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 14, 2017 01:52PM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
They're already more cost effective than those industry resources. I'll take a highly targeted Facebook ad over an over-priced banner ad on any industry-specific website without hesitation. [/quote]


There you go again taking about something you don't know anything about. Nowhere did I ever say anything about banner ads or "overpriced banner ads" - nowhere. This is something you manufactured on your own. What I'm talking about (professional industry networks, tools and trade resources) has absolutely nothing to do with banner ads or the such. Sorry.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 14, 2017 01:56PM)
Why on earth would a professional market business use consumer marketing methods or strategies when they are not trying to reach the consumer markets?
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (May 14, 2017 02:09PM)
You know what guys, I've thought about. I really have.

I'm going to yield to you all. Clearly those of you like Danny, Mindpro, WDavis etc, who do not execute anything on Facebook or digital marketing are far more versed in the practitionership of not NOT doing digital marketing than someone who actually DOES do it.

Y'all win.

Kudos to you all.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 14, 2017 02:09PM)
Yes tough questions to answer I get it.

But to be clear Robert before you stomp off in a huff I have not said anything about Facebook marketing or how to do it.

ALL I did was ask you to clarify your numbers. YOU made the claims about $200,000 in revenue and $50,000 coming from Facebook. I don't dispute those numbers. I simply would like to know what they mean so I asked for context.

I have not said do other things, I have not said it didn't work, or suggested another method was better.

I think as part of an overall strategy it is great to use Facebook. But honestly looking at both sides of this each seems a little myopic in their own way. Each seems to be assigning positions to the other that they are not saying.

Robert does not like Mindpro so everything is colored by that. Tom wants to be involved even though he has no experience. Old feuds just on a new topic. How sad nobody can have a different valid opinion. Why is it that it has to be anyone who disagrees is stupid?

Everyone has such fixed positions it is strange.

This is why context matters. Give us context for your success please and it will mean more. Without it it amounts to little.

How exactly do you use it business to business? Maybe you and Walter are talking about different things.

You have such an arrogant attitude for no reason. Can't we discuss as adults and learn? I would like to know more personally. I think a DISCUSSION, as opposed to pronouncements from everyone would be cool.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (May 14, 2017 02:27PM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yes tough questions to answer I get it.

But to be clear Robert before you stomp off in a huff I have not said anything about Facebook marketing or how to do it.

ALL I did was ask you to clarify your numbers. YOU made the claims about $200,000 in revenue and $50,000 coming from Facebook. I don't dispute those numbers. I simply would like to know what they mean so I asked for context.

I have not said do other things, I have not said it didn't work, or suggested another method was better.

I think as part of an overall strategy it is great to use Facebook. But honestly looking at both sides of this each seems a little myopic in their own way. Each seems to be assigning positions to the other that they are not saying.

Robert does not like Mindpro so everything is colored by that. Tom wants to be involved even though he has no experience. Old feuds just on a new topic. How sad nobody can have a different valid opinion. Why is it that it has to be anyone who disagrees is stupid?

Everyone has such fixed positions it is strange.

This is why context matters. Give us context for your success please and it will mean more. Without it it amounts to little.

How exactly do you use it business to business? Maybe you and Walter are talking about different things.

You have such an arrogant attitude for no reason. Can't we discuss as adults and learn? I would like to know more personally. I think a DISCUSSION, as opposed to pronouncements from everyone would be cool. [/quote]


"Can't we discuss as adults and learn?"

Did you actually just ask that? You? Really?

Your gas-lighting is unbelievable. Delete your account.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 14, 2017 02:29PM)
So you are saying you can't put things in correct and can't discuss others positions.

Why all the anger when all that was asked was fire s clarification? I did not post angry at you in the least.
Message: Posted by: 252life (May 14, 2017 05:39PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I too have never heard of the term ‘consumer market’ used the way you and Danny use it here.
Maybe you could show us someplace else that it is used that way. Any links?

Tom [/quote]


No. I'm not in the business of looking up links to have to prove information to others. I teach, train and educate, not convince. I also can teach one that you put on your sock before your shoe, but again, I don't have any links to provide to prove the facts.

Using electronics for example, let's say the VCR that was a staple for two decades. There were consumer VCRs that were used for home use, and professional VCRs that were used in television, media outlets and professional video production services. Then (to complicate matters even worse) there was a Prosumer line by Panasonic, JVC, Sony and several others. Not directly related, but a similar example on a more general level.

It has been quite common knowledge in the professional entertainment industry for decades. I would say I first learned of it from Steve Allen and Phyllis Diller in probably the late 70s or early 80s.

This is another reason for many misconceptions among performers in pricing. For example, using magicians, some will hear that "Mr. Magic" gets $10,000 for a 45 minute corporate event. Yet "Mr. Magic Café Magician" only gets $550 for a "corporate event." Then Mr. Magic Café Magician comes on the forum to proclaim "I don't believe Mr. Magic gets anywhere near $10,000 for a booking. Impossible. Implying he is a liar, and internet phoney and so on. In reality Mr. Magic does get 10K a show in the real corporate market. And no, there is no way Mr. Magic Café Magician could ever do so working a Christmas Party for the local T-mobile store. They are comparing watermelons and kumquats. Two entirely different things. The professional Mr. Magic working the professional market realizes this (and feels no need to prove or defend himself as it is truly his reality). Yet Mr. Magic Café Magician is not working the corporate market, in actuality he is working a consumer market bookings that only pays several hundred dollars. Yet Mr. Magic Café Magician will never learn or possibly understand this.

Two entirely different things. Yet the only one that doesn't realize it is the one asking for proof, and flinging untruths because of his lack of knowledge and understanding. Also likely due to his lack of professionalism.

This premise exists on almost every element of entertainment business - marketing, selling, exhibiting, promoting, production, bookings, clients, and literally every element. Even feedback, perception and testimonials. There are consumer testimonials and professional testimonials. Consumer credits and professional credits. Consumer promotional materials and videos, and professional promo and videos. The list goes on an on. And no, most performers don't have a clue. Many only exist on a consumer level because of the pre-explained default way most get started in the business.

They never evolve to the professional level in this context. Yet they believe otherwise.

Is this a swipe or dig to consumer-level performers, no not at all and not intended in any way. It also isn't a slam toward magicians, although the thinking is quite common among magicians. But it is a reality that exists and is typically only a problem with consumer-level entertainers.

The fact that it is only offered or discussed by a very few, is most pros will not take the time or have the patience to explain this and assist others. This is why it is so frustrating when some of do, that it is not recognized, appreciated and even realized. As I've said before this creates very limited perspectives. This is also why all advice and educational materials are not the same in any way. Most only go into consumer markets or worse yet falsely mislead performers to believe we all approach and operate the same on the same level. This is literally setting most up for complete failure. This is not operating from a position of complete honesty. It would be nearly impossible to succeed. This is why courses on say being a restaurant magician is only limiting to a very small segment of a consumer market. Most of these guys that claim they work professional markets do not, they work company events on a consumer level. Such then, everything they claim to teach, is limiting and often ineffective to someone who has even slightly different interests.

This is exactly why I have created my materials and am selective as to who I let have access to them, because I have yet to see a single person, course or program that gets into this properly from the industry perspective - period.

Again, this is why this is so exciting that Walter has brought this to the fore as I and one or two others have before. This is not run of the mill information. I get many students that want to know the holy grail or secret sauce. They quickly learn it doesn't exist BUT this would be the closest thing to that. [/quote]


....I'm only this far (pg 2) of this thread. But just wanted to say thanks! This is quality reading, and sincerely appreciated.
I have to admit, I'm feeling a tad embarrassed.
It's subtle, like just finding out you've been mispronouncing a word for years.
Maybe a common mistake, but if you're OCD like me...ugh, annoying.
So, back on topic-
I've often said, "I do corporate events". Up until a few moments ago, I believed I did lol.
I doubt I'll be changing how I describe my work for businesses though.
Hopefully, my references would show no attempt at duplicity.

Anyway, often I see a post on the Café, it deserves a reply, and I forget.
So, back to the discussion for me.

252LazySunday

(Hey Danny, I was just down in Boulder City and did the helicopter gunship thing. It was great! Offer stands, you'll love it. Hope you're well)
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 14, 2017 05:44PM)
252life thanks for posting. OCD can be a difficult challenge, if you don't mind I would love to see a new thread on how it's affected both positively and negatively your business as an entertainer.

Walter
Message: Posted by: 252life (May 14, 2017 05:45PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
The thing that is frustrating is that some think if it is not in their experience it does not exist. This is part of why not all experience is relevant.

Then they take that lack of understanding and apply it and rather than LEARN something they just shout down those who do know. Then blame others for ego issues or for being mean or any other number of crazy claims simply because THEY don't understand.

The worst thing is they then pass that lack of understanding on to others based on "I have the right to my opinion". Never backing off, never learning, just pushing an agenda of wanting to be heard and taken seriously.

I am fairly well implanted Business to Business. BUT that is where the sales take place. The end user is consumer. So it is a strange amalgam of the two that is not so common.

But the fact is that there are 2 different ways to operate! One I worry about the relationships with people. In the next email it is more "product" driven. In our case shows. I bounce back and forth between the two all day. And make NO mistake it is a HUGE difference. I work for some of the biggest corporations on the planet. No doubt the business card is not really used in many instances for that.

It is not easy to want to learn as we get older. It is just so easy to think we don't have to because X has been working. It is a trap. [/quote]


Great points.
Much appreciated.
Danny, I just think you come off like a bull in a china shop at times lol.
But! You've got a TON of info at your fingertips from all I've seen.
Obvious that it's all been learned in real time/real life, not theory.
I personally learn a lot from some of your input, and say thanks.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 14, 2017 05:54PM)
I AM a bull in a China shop. No doubt about it.
Message: Posted by: 252life (May 14, 2017 06:07PM)
This thread has been an education.

My experiencing with advertising, was a dark comedy.
For approx 5 years I owned an online game.
I tried everything from the sucker bets ("mass email plans"), small scale guerrilla marketing, targeted banner ads, Facebook, etc., etc. Ironically, the smallest, most obscure little Australian site, was the most successful. Not by a little either. And (!) those people almost always ended up being the whales.
If there's a point here, I guess it's this. Test out different approaches, and maybe you'll get a surprise.
If this applies to our form of entertainment, I personally don't know.
But, that's why I'm loving this thread. Trying to learn.
Message: Posted by: 252life (May 14, 2017 06:13PM)
I am quickly realizing I have not maximized my potential, sheeeesh
Feeling very inefficient at the moment.
(See?! I could have just said, "atm". I'm *** wasteful!)

I'm someone that probably needs an agent.
Or, a babysitter.

252Rainman
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 14, 2017 09:23PM)
252life, I agree there has been a wealth of great information offered here in even just the last week. There are two ways members here will respond to it - those that will take the time and put in the effort to learn, understand and try to comprehend the information that has been offered to them, and those who will fight it, deny it, argue against it, challenge it and not ever get a true understanding of the content being offered, the opinions vs. the facts and a host of other blockades that will prevent them from benefiting the as as other will. They will instead fight against the messenger or posters. That is fine their prerogative.

As far as Robert he believes he knows about social media. He is then trying to take his belief and claimed experience (square peg) and trying to make it universally applicable to any situation (consumer or professional) whether it is true or not (round hole). It is no different than a magician that loves a trick and insists that it be in all of his show regardless if a show for 3 year olds, a corporate events for adults or a senior home. He feels he can make it work in any situation because he feel he likes it and knows best. Others can tell him otherwise and that it is not the best and even offer reasons or examples why it is not so, he doesn't want to hear it.

It really is a matter of people being blinded by their own ignorance for many.

Self-realization is truly the greatest benefit from this information and really from all of the content presented here in Tricky Business. It becomes really easy to see how one is towards their business and likely performance by the way they view things and respond. It is no different how the checkers brothers take away so much from the information offered in Tricky Business and a handful of others learn, accept and benefit nothing. They prevent themselves from the same luxury.

I'm glad to see (and hear from) so many this last week about the eye-opening information that all comes from the single element of understanding consumer vs. professional markets.

I will take a moment to loudly say and clarify this since Tom specifically stated this and Donald and another person here have eluded to it - I (and recently Walter, Danny and others) have delved deeper into the issue of consumer vs. professional markets as I feel it is an underlying reasons for many performers lack of success, confusion and lack of understanding of so many elements and things related to both their performance and their business operations. For many that truly understand this premise it can be the missing piece you've needed.

Understand I (and I am sure the others too) in NO WAY have ever presented this topic to claim, present or project that a consumer level performer is a lower level performer or "belittled" performer (as Tom has stated). Even in Donald's reply he mentions something to the affect of "well I guess I am just a consumer market performer" as if to imply that it is something bad, low-lever or somehow inadequate. This was ever said, ever. This topic was only introduced to offer reasons and awareness of the issue and how it likely applies to almost every person here's entertainment performance and business (except Tom).

Some are getting hung up on a tone that doesn't or shouldn't exist. We all start on a consumer market level. Many performers remain there their entire performing career and can become very successful. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG OR INSUFFICIENT IN BEING A CONSUMER MARKET PERFORMER!

Only understand that they operate differently than professional market performers in many ways and approaches.

I work with far more consumer level performers than anything else. Some are content to always stay at this level, others are aware of limitations and boundaries that exist and strive to get to the professional market level. It is an individual choice as performers we all have to make.

I am only concerned that everyone has all of the facts, proper insight and information to make a proper and educated decision that best suits themselves.

I see much more coming ahead in great topics and I think this premise and understanding it completely will help members here get the most out of such entertainment business-related topics and positioning.

From what I have been hearing from many this week, it has been a real eye-opener to many who have been re-energized to think about this and like 252life, reevaluate their current position and operations.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 14, 2017 09:37PM)
I had an operation on my knee I an reevaluating.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 14, 2017 10:31PM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I had an operation on my knee I an reevaluating. [/quote]

So does that means you won't be able to work the professional market anymore? :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: 252life (May 15, 2017 11:01AM)
Personally, I'm grateful for these insights.
Same as when I used to go to the SBA, and speak with retired business owners, etc.
you don't know what you don't know. So, I'm all ears. So long as the source is reliable.
Here, we have valuable info being shared, specific to our odd niche of a profession.
Furthermore, to have anyone take the time to share paragraphs of detailed thoughts, is commendable.
And appreciated.

Disclaimer...I still reserve the right to start unnecessary arguments at anytime, and for no reason.
It's an early morning, coffee withdrawal issue you see :)

252Jittery
Message: Posted by: 252life (May 15, 2017 11:02AM)
Hope the knees recovering well Danny
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 15, 2017 11:20AM)
Sorry that was the joke part. Why should Toms COMPLETE lack of understanding be the only thing we laugh at?
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 15, 2017 11:55PM)
[quote]On Apr 12, 2017, WDavis wrote:
Throw your business card away.

Let me explain why.
1. Your card has your picture on it
2. It lists all the services you do.
3. You treat your card like a sales tool

These are signs you are amateur or a consumer market performer. I have a growing suspicion many magicians copied real estate agents on their cards.

Think about this for a moment before you jump down my throat. Business buyers are more sophisticated and if they have your card it's because you were referred or you have a relationship with them. B2b entertainment services is relationship driven, not consumer volume driven. And if you want to work in that market you need to look like you belong.
You don't know how many times I got business cards from people trying to push me their service or product that ended up in the trash can. A bad business card is toxic for b2b success, it can really cheapen an image.

So in the end get a card that you expect a professional would give you, because they are expecting you to be a professional too.

Don't even get me started on why blogs, twitter, Facebook, social media is a waste of time too. [/quote]

WDavis, my reply to this is that 1) it is a hasty generalization 2) it is disrespectful to sales professionals, specially to real estate professionals

The key question with business cards is: What gets results? Every person who you ask about your business card will have a different opinion about it, it will never be perfect for every person. So instead commit to something you like and go forward with it. Does it get consistent results for you? If so you have a winner or you could continue to refine it or change it completely. A card with a photo on it can certainly get results, likewise a card without a photo can certainly get results.

As far as real estate agents go, I have nothing against real estate agents. Many don't do much work but many are very successful. I believe I would enjoy talking with and learning from a successful realtor and I remember in his book "The Millionaire Mind" Thomas Stanley describes a certain type of realtor who is invaluable and based on his statistics a high percentage of millionaires had a realtor like this where they sought advice.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Jun 16, 2017 11:12AM)
Tim,

Thank you for your post. I can appreciate your disagreement so allow me to provide you some supporti to my points. I have over the years collected close to 1,000 business cards internationally from various magicians. this is a statistically significant set to support the claim of how the majority of cards are presented. Prior to leaving the banking industry I was involved in investment and corporate banking. My niche was financial institutions. I dealt with lenders and most lenders are involved with mortgages. Thru lender finance, I have met more realtors than I can count. I can safely say 95% of realtors are b2c and their business cards and magician cards are strikingly similar for the b2c markets. I believe this is the case because most magicians don't know business, so they gather business cards from various people and realtors cards are readily available as are most b2c cards. This leads magicians to falsely believe that is how a business card is supposed to be for any market. In the b2b market it is not. Less is more because the focus is not on selling but establishing a relationship between the parties. This difference of focus changes the purpose of the business card and how it is used. B2c uses the card as a sales tool providing a laundry list of services. A b2b business card is less cluttered listing company name logo and contact information (name email and phone numbers).

This difference is because many corporatations will scan cards into a comapby rolodex. OCR software doesn't work well with flashy cluttered cards. Additionally, there is a sense of business card etiquette and aesthetic that is lost in the b2c markets. To highlight my point get a corporate bankers business card, a corporate lawyers, a corporate cpa (not the guy who does your taxes) and a corporate realtors card. Then compare them to their b2c equivalent. It is obvious the markets and norms are different.
I don't know where you are geographically but if you can compare a CBRE business card to your local realtor who wants to sell you a house you will see my point about realtors and magicians.

I disagree with your premise that the key question is "what gets results?". This statement clearly highlights a b2c mindset. The business card is NOt a sales tool in Business to business sales. Nor is it a marketing tool. Those are b2c tactics. In b2b if you use those tactics then you lack experience or training in b2b sales. This isn't a question about results. Yes you may get a sale, I may find $5000 on the street but I don't want to bank my livelihood in those odds.

To your final point, the invaluable millionaire realtor - His economic value is his network not him.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 16, 2017 12:52PM)
WDavis,

You continue to make assumptions. I guess your goal is to position yourself as a guru here on the Café so you can sell your products, and you will most likely succeed because there are many impressionable people here. However you have only showed up recently here on the Café, you use a partial name so we have no idea who you are or your credibility. So far you have positioned yourself as a loudmouth on the Café and like Eugene Burger said, "online the loudmouth suddenly has just as much authority as Dai Vernon."

You are basing this only on one industry, however there are many industries. There are many "blue collar" industries that will pay just as much as the industries you mention.

As far as "what gets results?" you are influenced by this question because in your opinion "what gets results" is the type of business card that you believe is the best card.

In regards to the millionaires realtor that was a reference from a specific book and you would need to read that chapter from the book, then it would be more appropriate for us to have a discussion about it.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 16, 2017 05:29PM)
The key point I was trying to make is, this topic is a very minor point in being successful as a professional magician, regardless of the market. There are many things much more important than the type of business card.

It's like saying you must have your resume in a specific format and font for it to work, but many formats and fonts on a resume will get the desired result.

I know one magician off the top of my head who is in one of the most competitive markets and he works circles around most everyone else, and at a higher rate. He has worked for top name corporations that you would immediately recognize. And he has his photo on his business card.

With or without a photo on a business card, you can still be successful.

Finally this is my problem with the Café, I don't want to argue with anyone, and I am not an argumentative person, but it brings out the worst in me. I will most likely take a break from the Café once again, I would rather work on my business.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 16, 2017 05:44PM)
So it is the fault of The Magic Café' that you brought up a month old thread in a combative fashion? Got it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 16, 2017 05:48PM)
Not sure how you can say that when your opening sentence in reopening a month old post is "WDavis, my reply to this is that 1) it is a hasty generalization 2) it is disrespectful to sales professionals, specially to real estate professionals. That was more argument-starting than anything in this thread. Making such accusations will likely only lead responses in one direction. The same happened in your previous posts. (just pointing it out, not you you realize this or not or if this is intentional).

It would be great to see you provide some context to your posts as Walter has done to make your point more understandable. I also think you post from a position of feeling you already know, rather than approaching open-minded from a perspective of "this is interesting, maybe I could learn something." I see this a lot here from newer performing guys (less than 10 years) that could really learn much more if they weren't so argumentative and defensive. Once you realize much of the information here can actually help you in working on your own business, the information, value and perception here becomes something entirely different on a greater level.

So much of this comes from a poor foundational level. The foudational level you build your business, beliefs and operations on must be reality-based not based on just your persona limited experience, beliefs and preferences.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 16, 2017 05:49PM)
Guess we were posting the same immediate thoughts at the same time. Great minds think alike!
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Jun 16, 2017 06:14PM)
Walter- thanks for taking the time to provide the context in which you offer your opinion regarding business cards. Interestingly, no one who disagreed with your point was able to share anything about a business card that refuted your position. Instead, they share their opinion (with no context ) and try to say that it doesn't matter what is on the card or what the intended purpose of the card is.

Perhaps there is a counter argument to be made (it sure does not seem so), but Tim and Tom are not representing the "other side" very well at all. For some reason they are taking the advice as a personal attack on those of us who operate in b2c markets. I have no idea why, as it has been explained here numerous times that it is not the case.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Jun 16, 2017 08:09PM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2017, Tim Friday wrote:
WDavis,

You continue to make assumptions. I guess your goal is to position yourself as a guru here on the Café so you can sell your products, and you will most likely succeed because there are many impressionable people here. However you have only showed up recently here on the Café, you use a partial name so we have no idea who you are or your credibility. So far you have positioned yourself as a loudmouth on the Café and like Eugene Burger said, "online the loudmouth suddenly has just as much authority as Dai Vernon."

You are basing this only on one industry, however there are many industries. There are many "blue collar" industries that will pay just as much as the industries you mention.

As far as "what gets results?" you are influenced by this question because in your opinion "what gets results" is the type of business card that you believe is the best card.

In regards to the millionaires realtor that was a reference from a specific book and you would need to read that chapter from the book, then it would be more appropriate for us to have a discussion about it. [/quote]

Tim,

Please point out where I am making assumptions and how those assumptions are wrong.

I'm also flattered that you believe my content posted would position me as a guru. If you had channel checked you would see I've actually pulled all of my products from the market in March. I have been working putting together products for corporate magicians And mentalists. But I also don't "sell" I educate, network, and provide white papers to demonstrate. ive not planned on pushing my wares thru the Café with respect to business.

I've not shown up here recently, I've been a member of the Café for a while, only recently I've posted in tricky. This is due to the deficiency in content and understanding of corporate and commercial markets. I started posting here to fill that void.

Furthermore, I don't hide behind a partial name. My name is Walter Davis, I sometimes sign and many times don't. It's not out of hiding but rather my mood and what device I'm typing on. Lately I've been using my iPhone so typos have increased. I've had many private phone/skype conversations with many people on the Café regarding mentalist and business. If people want to ask me a question I will answer them and if I have the time I even offer to call them. I would even speak with you over the phone if you wanted to talk over my points. I'm not here to fight with people nor am I here to pontificate, I'm here to give back to others and pay it forward.

With respect to one industry, that is not correct, I've been exposed to more Industries and had to become technically competent than most here on the Café do to the nature of my background. When you lend to lenders you have to know them and their customers, plus their respective industries. I've helped companies grow from a home based business to being sold to a Fortune 500. I replied to one industry because I referenced one that you called me out on: realty.

The comment about what gets results is the key point, and my point is what you missed. My point is the card you use if moving from retail/consumer channels and moving towards middle market and corporate will hurt you. These companies for the most part are more sophisticated and image/perception is a larger factor. Because of this fact, I'm stressing the card itself hurts more then helps as it is used by most magicians. This is because they fail to establish the level of relationship necessary to effectively compete in This market. My point is the emphasis should be on establishing the relationship. Doing this returns the business card back to its original purpose a calling card with contact information. These people already know you, trust you, and only will use your card to contact you or give to someone else for a specific referral. If your presold then your card doesn't need to sell you. If you've established a relationship your card doesn't need to sell you.

Finally, with the "millionaire" book, I agree. What is the isbn or title/author I read a book a week and would love to add it to my list. After I finish I'd love to have that discussion with you.

For everyone else speaking up about me, thank you for replying I'm flattered and humbled by your comments and defense.
While we may all come from different places, it's communication and A willingness to discuss and work thru our differences of opinions with others that makes us all better businessmen and women.

Thank you everyone,
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 16, 2017 10:33PM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2017, Cafécheckers wrote:
Walter- thanks for taking the time to provide the context in which you offer your opinion regarding business cards. Interestingly, no one who disagreed with your point was able to share anything about a business card that refuted your position. Instead, they share their opinion (with no context ) and try to say that it doesn't matter what is on the card or what the intended purpose of the card is.

Perhaps there is a counter argument to be made (it sure does not seem so), but Tim and Tom are not representing the "other side" very well at all. For some reason they are taking the advice as a personal attack on those of us who operate in b2c markets. I have no idea why, as it has been explained here numerous times that it is not the case. [/quote]


So true. I think it is because T&T aren't totally understanding or accepting the Consumer Vs. Professional markets premise or it would quite easy to see the differences. Tom is obviously in denial that it even exists, and Tim seems to want to twist or apply what he does know to be across the board insight, which it isn't. Even with Walter's patience, context and examples it back up his points, it is still being opposed, mostly due to a lack of understanding.

You said "For some reason they are taking the advice as a personal attack on those of us who operate in b2c markets. I have no idea why, as it has been explained here numerous times that it is not the case." I do not understand this as well. Others here have understood this fine. Not sure why the attacks related to this topic and this premise.

Most realtor business cards are created and intended for potential clients and those with listings. Thus, the cards are created for this target in mind. In B2b sales and business, the card should be created for THAT target and The professional market in mind, which as Walter said would be entirely different and without the photo and "about me" tone that is often a part of B2c (consumer) approaches.

The point is many performers just make their business cards, promotional materials, websites, videos, etc. based on what they have seen others do (hence the common "what do you think of my (business card, website, etc. threads here.) People respond with their PERSONAL OPINIONS, not actually what is best for the person inquiring as it is impossible for them to know and be able to do so. (It also very probable that the OP asking the question doesn't understand or know this information as well). To answer such questions one would need to know many things, including their specific targets, markets and level of operation. One size does not fit all.

One has to have knowledge and experience of both to properly offer the requested insight. Many here (not you specifically Cafécheckers) are struggling to get this, and therefore simply offer their personal opinion based on their own position and often limited knowledge of the greater picture. So in order to properly answer such question you need the proper information and a more complete understanding of the topic being discussed or offered.

While on tour over the last few months I have looked over the last 100 pages of posts here in Tricky Business and (the majority) almost every topic and thread is affected by the Consumer vs. Professional market understanding. It would make getting the benefits of the threads and the information being shared so much more useful and applicable to many by just having the understanding of this one single basic premise.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jun 19, 2017 08:33PM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
The point is many performers just make their business cards, promotional materials, websites, videos, etc. based on what they have seen others do (hence the common "what do you think of my (business card, website, etc. threads here.) People respond with their PERSONAL OPINIONS, not actually what is best for the person inquiring as it is impossible for them to know and be able to do so. (It also very probable that the OP asking the question doesn't understand or know this information as well). To answer such questions one would need to know many things, including their specific targets, markets and level of operation. One size does not fit all.

One has to have knowledge and experience of both to properly offer the requested insight. Many here (not you specifically Cafécheckers) are struggling to get this, and therefore simply offer their personal opinion based on their own position and often limited knowledge of the greater picture. So in order to properly answer such question you need the proper information and a more complete understanding of the topic being discussed or offered. [/quote]

Great points shared here. Ones we cannot be reminded about enough.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 20, 2017 10:44AM)
For the readers and I don’t think it has been mentioned yet, but there are a few good books out there on working the corporate market. I believe Jim Snack covers it in his books. Also Danny Orleans has a book on working the corporate market. And let’s not forget that Lou Serrano and a couple more here offer some excellent material on building a magic business.

But if you’re really serious about interacting and working with professional business people I suggest studying some of the personal development books/videos. In the end a good personality along with a positive outlook will take you much farther than than your tricks will.

Jim Rohn, a very successful business man and motivational speaker once said, “Work hard at your job and you can make a living. Work hard on yourself and you can make a fortune.” I have to agree with him. When you are lucky enough to be self employed the only thing holding you back is ‘you’

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 20, 2017 11:17AM)
You are recommending books you have not read?
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 21, 2017 09:54PM)
WDavis,
Here is why I felt you were making assumptions -
I felt it is a hasty generalization to assume that performers get business card advice from realtors. If anything I would bet magicians get business card advice from other magicians or a small business marketing course along the lines of Piranha Marketing by Joe Polish or a similar type course. Also it came across to me as a generalized looking down the nose at realtors in general as a profession. I'm not a realtor and never have been and have no desire to be one but I'm certain there are many fantastic realtors who I could learn from.

Also I believe there are many more things at play in a performers success than just simply the business card.

I would be interested in getting a collection of the top magicians business cards today. I would bet you will see a variety of styles of business cards, some with photos some without. I believe there are indicators of success that take a priority over the business card.

The book I mentioned was "The Millionaire Mind" by Thomas J Stanley and here is a link to it on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Mind-Thomas-J-Stanley/dp/0740718584/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498099639&sr=8-1&keywords=the+millionaire+mind

Finally I recently met someone in a corporate role for a major musical instrument company, top acts have used the products from this company for many years. It is a company that could easily hire a magician for an event or trade show at top dollar with no hesitation, if they wanted a magician.
Incidentally her photo is on her business card. It is the corporate layout that I'm sure everyone at this company has the similar style card with their photo.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Jun 23, 2017 09:21AM)
[quote]On May 14, 2017, Mindpro wrote:

As far as Robert he believes he knows about social media. He is then trying to take his belief and claimed experience (square peg) and trying to make it universally applicable to any situation (consumer or professional) whether it is true or not (round hole). It is no different than a magician that loves a trick and insists that it be in all of his show regardless if a show for 3 year olds, a corporate events for adults or a senior home. He feels he can make it work in any situation because he feel he likes it and knows best. Others can tell him otherwise and that it is not the best and even offer reasons or examples why it is not so, he doesn't want to hear it.

It really is a matter of people being blinded by their own ignorance for many.

Self-realization is truly the greatest benefit from this information and really from all of the content presented here in Tricky Business. It becomes really easy to see how one is towards their business and likely performance by the way they view things and respond. It is no different how the checkers brothers take away so much from the information offered in Tricky Business and a handful of others learn, accept and benefit nothing. They prevent themselves from the same luxury.
. [/quote]

Wow. Throwing some hefty shade there.

The problem is the people telling me otherwise are people that have never executed in the space. While I know that I have.

To borrow Danny's Michael Jordan analogy, I'm the one who has executed and you're the short fat guy trying to dunk.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 23, 2017 11:28AM)
As far as social media, I am the fat short guy. My redeeming feature is I KNOW IT!

I have accomplished NOTHING in social media. Thus my lack of opinion.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Jun 23, 2017 05:14PM)
[quote]On Jun 23, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
As far as social media, I am the fat short guy. My redeeming feature is I KNOW IT!

I have accomplished NOTHING in social media. Thus my lack of opinion. [/quote]

Respect. Self-awareness matters.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 23, 2017 07:58PM)
[quote]On Jun 23, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]On Jun 23, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
As far as social media, I am the fat short guy. My redeeming feature is I KNOW IT!

I have accomplished NOTHING in social media. Thus my lack of opinion. [/quote]

Respect. Self-awareness matters. [/quote]

It is my one admirable quality.

But you are right. One who thinks he knows is twice as ignorant as one who simply does not. It is also VERY expensive to think you know, and be wrong.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Jun 24, 2017 12:39AM)
[quote]On Jun 23, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jun 23, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]On Jun 23, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
As far as social media, I am the fat short guy. My redeeming feature is I KNOW IT!

I have accomplished NOTHING in social media. Thus my lack of opinion. [/quote]

Respect. Self-awareness matters. [/quote]

It is my one admirable quality.

But you are right. One who thinks he knows is twice as ignorant as one who simply does not. It is also VERY expensive to think you know, and be wrong. [/quote]


I don't know that I'd call it a quality. Maybe a feature. 😂

And for the record, so that it's been said, I'm not saying any of the other methods in this theead flat out don't work. They do. Calling, even cold, eMails, joining trade organizations etc...all can work. Social networks provide an enormous trove of customer data. More than any other marketing tool ever. In the history of the world this is as good as it has ever been.

So blowing off Facebook as not being for business by design or intent is just ignorance. Because it's just not true.