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Topic: Not Being Paid For GIG
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 7, 2017 11:04PM)
I performed at a tradeshow for a company on 10 April and still have not been paid. To make a long story boring, I agreed on a fee, company is legit, I sent an invoice and W9. Numerous phone calls, emails and I even sent a hard copy of the invoice/contract. When I call, I get the runaround and a really rude person calls me back and I felt like a second class citizen on the phone with him. He said he would check into it and still have not heard back. The person who originally hired me, just keeps putting me off saying the check would be released in May....etc etc. I have been performing for over 10 years professionally and NEVER had this ever happen, even once. It must have happened at least once to someone here but I searched here on the Cafť and could not find any information. Any advice much appreciated. :loss:
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (May 7, 2017 11:24PM)
Lawyer letter
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 7, 2017 11:48PM)
Yeah looking at that option....thanks..
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 12:43AM)
I am going to catch a lot of crap for this but here goes.

First I would forget the lawyer letter. It might cost more than you suspect.

How big is this company? I only ask because often they are on net 30 or net 45 with invoices. If you do not have it specifically in the contract then it is possible they are paying you on their terms. I am not faulting you for this or saying anything bad! Just saying how moat big companies work.

Often they do all the bills on one day of the month, thus the net 45 so it gives them time for holidays, weekends and such.

This is not in the least uncommon and if you do it long enough you have to keep track of what comes in when and sort of backtrack. The reason for people being rude is IF they are on net 45 and you are caking in less than 30 days you do not look good. It can ruin a client and make toy "seem" unprofessional. In reality all you want is to be paid. It is just looking at the same set of facts from a different perspective. (Mind you I do not see you as unprofessional.)

I think it can be this. It may not be! But this can be a problem.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 01:47AM)
Exactly! Without even knowing all the specific details I am sure this could easily be another example of a consumer level/market performer attempting to work a professional market gig with professional market terms, operations and differences.

How did you state the terms of payment in the contract? Was this a last minute or short-notice booking?

I agree the lawyer letter is a terrible idea and advice here.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 8, 2017 02:43AM)
Thanks MP and Danny. I have never had a company take this long. I was only dealing with a woman from the company and this was scheduled well in advance, about two months before the tradeshow. Its just the runaround and non communication that ticks me off. But Danny you are right on, I just want to be paid. I am not trying to stir up a mess with them at all. Since the gig, I would email the woman now and then and it seems she had no clue what is going on. She initially was suppose to bring the check on the gig date. My contract states specifically payment due before or on the date of the gig. Aside from her, I had a male call me on Thurs after I left a voicemail on the company tele number. He said he would look into it..All I wanted was communication which has been nearly nonexistent with the woman who hired me.

Stated in the contract payment by cash or check nlt 10 April It was emailed to the woman hirer along with W9.

Its Monday so another workweek. Hopefully I will hear something soon...Thanks again.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (May 8, 2017 05:16AM)
I'd recommend a little patience also. Many schools I deal with take 3, 4, or 5 months to get paid, even though I state I expect to be paid on the day of the show. Some businesses are simply not run very well. However, most want to maintain their integrity. If the problem persists I'd try to reach out for the person's boss, or their boss, or someone in the company that cares about their integrity. You don't have to threaten anyone, just explain there has been an oversight and ask for their help.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 8, 2017 09:57AM)
Ok so I read this and here 2 distinct needs.
1. A defined collections policy/procedure
2. A better understanding of standard business practices for the industry you performed.

So when it comes to collections procedures. Here is a standard framework used across industries. 30-60-90. Step 1 when 30 days late call the AP department and verify what's going on and when payment will be sent. Follow up after the call with an email recapping the conversation. If it hits 60 days, repeat the same process but follow up instead to department manager and cc to AP clerk in the follow up email. 90 days - email the real buyer of your service, this is the person who said yes hire him, inform them you haven't been paid, include the correspondence of the manager and AP clerk. Ask what is going on. Finally, at 120 days you write off the amount as uncollectible, email them you will no longer work with them on future engagements, then 1099-C them for the cancelled debt.

Here is what is going on with this framework, 1 the collection period is within standard aging buckets so they are more likely to fit within their procedures. 2. They see you as more professional. 3. The clerks and line managers just don't want to deal with it so they delay, but more importantly they don't want their boss on them, so you escalate at each bucket to resolve, if it's not resolved you go to the real buyer, The approver. This is the one they fear and it usually is resolved then. 4. Finally, if it's still not resolved, let the IRS deal with it, but it keeps them having to pay. It's paying either you or the IRS. the 1099-C is reported and will force them to pay tax on the income. Large companies this is more a headache but usually gets the attention of the controller, senior management, as to why they failed to meet a debt obligation. This can have larger impacts to their going concern and credit covenants.

With business procedures: I am not sure of the industry as you haven't stated it or the company size. But based on what you have posted I can infer the following possibilities:
A) You never met the "real buyer" of your service
B) the company doesn't think much of you
C) the company has cash constraints

Finally, Danny has given you some solid advice on business billings

If you met the real buyer, the staff would know it and be more likely to pay your bill on time to avoid any bad news getting back to buyer. Since they are giving you a run around, you probably went thru HR and/or a vendor management on boarding, these people don't respect you as you are just a burden to them.

The worst possibility is they have cash constraints so they are slow paying/no paying to stay afloat. If that's the situation, you essentially worked for free and are better off 1099C and move on. It's not worth hassling payment for more than 4 months. Mind you I'm also presume a minimum 5 figure invoice if it's less then 5 figures shorten your time line to 90 days if less than 5,000 then cut it off after 60 days but at the end always 1099c.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (May 8, 2017 10:35AM)
If this involves a "five figure" invoice please ignore my post. I haven't the slightest idea of how to handle that.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 11:13AM)
One time in ten years, thatís a great record.

Yes, with some companies it takes patience, patience, patience.

No I wouldnít pay a lawyer yet, just donít appear to be too pushy in the collection process.
Upset them and they will delay even longer. Good luck with it.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 11:57AM)
I should clarify. I do not believe they are delaying for any reason other than procedure. It may not be intentional.

The idea that they will delay longer if you upset them is not at all my point.

I think if they are just in the procedure and you do not understand it then you can look unprofessional, when all you really want is to be paid. But if it is procedure and industry standard it shows you don't know that and might not want to highlight that.

Plus when they want another performer they may search for one who does understand.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (May 8, 2017 12:03PM)
As Danny said, the larger the company the longer it takes to pay invoices. Make sure you got the invoice to the accounting department. Then ask what is their time for payment of invoices. I am sure, even though you have not had this experience, when you deal with large companies, it is the norm.

Also you might not be paid by the company but an outside advertising or trade show company. To keep all he expenses under the proper title or area of expense.

Many trade show payments can take a long as a year to get paid. That is why when you enter a field you find out what you will need to operate in the that field and live while waiting for the check.

Sounds like you did not get a contract signed up front, the contract is proof you had a deal, and it should also state when payment is due. The invoice is only for the accounting department, without an invoice they cannot process your claim.

If all you had was a verbal over the phone agreement, then you are at their mercy, so just sit back and wait, not matter how long it takes.

There is a book called "The Contract Book by Jim Kleefeld" on putting together contacts as magicians with samples. It has been updated from the original before the Internet boom.

They are also under the impression they have hired a professional person, if you sound desperate to get your money, you will lose that image.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 8, 2017 12:37PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I should clarify. I do not believe they are delaying for any reason other than procedure. It may not be intentional.

The idea that they will delay longer if you upset them is not at all my point.

I think if they are just in the procedure and you do not understand it then you can look unprofessional, when all you really want is to be paid. But if it is procedure and industry standard it shows you don't know that and might not want to highlight that.

Plus when they want another performer they may search for one who does understand. [/quote]

Danny, that wasn't what I was referrring to about upsetting them. What I was referring to was your point of clarifying payment terms. As most terms are usually 30-60-90 some will vary. To Bill's point of slow paying invoices, that happens because by slow paying AP, I improve my cash collection days and overall cash flow. Entertainers get this treatment because they don't know better and hold their grounds for payment. As such it starts to become an industry norm ala bully the little guy. Because as a larger company, they care about their profits more than yours. Also, at the job level they are more concerned with avoiding or fixing with the "hot potato" first. Employees don't want to deal with headaches, and small bills can be considered a headache, especially when all paperworks weren't done properly. They view the person in weaker position therefore they delay not out of maliciousness, but rather problem avoidance till they HaVE to deal with it.

Finally, getting paid 6 months later is a joke, unless you are getting healthcare reimbursements or subcontracted and have to wait till the primary contractor is paid.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (May 8, 2017 01:08PM)
If your contract states you should be paid day of show, and you made that clear to your contact, you have every right to question who you will be receiving payment from and when to expect it. On the day of show, what conversation took place about payment?

I'm not sure why they made you feel second class... Did they not tell you when to expect payment?

I've never had a problem getting paid day of show for company events from various sized companies.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 01:10PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, WDavis wrote:
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I should clarify. I do not believe they are delaying for any reason other than procedure. It may not be intentional.

The idea that they will delay longer if you upset them is not at all my point.

I think if they are just in the procedure and you do not understand it then you can look unprofessional, when all you really want is to be paid. But if it is procedure and industry standard it shows you don't know that and might not want to highlight that.

Plus when they want another performer they may search for one who does understand. [/quote]

Danny, that wasn't what I was referrring to about upsetting them. What I was referring to was your point of clarifying payment terms. As most terms are usually 30-60-90 some will vary. To Bill's point of slow paying invoices, that happens because by slow paying AP, I improve my cash collection days and overall cash flow. Entertainers get this treatment because they don't know better and hold their grounds for payment. As such it starts to become an industry norm ala bully the little guy. Because as a larger company, they care about their profits more than yours. Also, at the job level they are more concerned with avoiding or fixing with the "hot potato" first. Employees don't want to deal with headaches, and small bills can be considered a headache, especially when all paperworks weren't done properly. They view the person in weaker position therefore they delay not out of maliciousness, but rather problem avoidance till they HaVE to deal with it.

Finally, getting paid 6 months later is a joke, unless you are getting healthcare reimbursements or subcontracted and have to wait till the primary contractor is paid. [/quote]

I didn't refer to your post.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 01:18PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, thomasR wrote:
If your contract states you should be paid day of show, and you made that clear to your contact, you have every right to question who you will be receiving payment from and when to expect it. On the day of show, what conversation took place about payment?

I'm not sure why they made you feel second class... Did they not tell you when to expect payment?

I've never had a problem getting paid day of show for company events from various sized companies. [/quote]

I agree, and I donít see it as the performer not being professional or him not understanding how companies operate. They both knew exactly what the agreement was to begin with. He was to be paid that day and he wasnít. It is past due and they are dragging around with paying it.

Still, with the show being last month, my guess is he will be paid soon, if not this week.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 01:26PM)
That lack of understanding is amazing.

The huge percentage of corporate shows I do are paid through ACH bank transfers.

Tom you are truly out of your depth here.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 01:37PM)
Danny, what does that have to do with him having an agreement that he would be paid THAT DAY? Nothing at all.


Anyways,

Reminds me of years ago when one Saturday morning I had a man walk into my office with a gun saying ĎI come to get my money.í I was there alone and had no idea who he was. Turns out my office manager had hired him to do some yard work about a month early and he was to be mailed a check. But for some reason he had called everyday really peeing her off and she delayed, delayed, and delayed. I knew nothing about it.

So if he doen't get it soon, a gun will get it pretty quick. I think I paid the poor man a lot extra. LOL

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 01:51PM)
Well most business in this century is not done with firearms.

This is why often people have deposits due at certain times so it is clear what payment terms are.

Nothing wrong with having an agreement tu be paid THAT DAY (which fir sobe reason you need to put in all caps.). But if you have such an agreement it would be smart to know industry standardpractice and figure out if that is the goal.

Sure one can also use firearms.

But since there is little you can do this time learn for the future. Make terms clear and make certain who will be paying you.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 02:05PM)
Danny my point was, sometimes the person that writes the check doesnít always know the details of the agreement.
Surely you knew that.


But it sounds to me like the terms was very clear in his case. She was supposed to bring the check. But hey what do I know.:)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 02:20PM)
Here is how some companies work. Pay attention Tom you may learn.

Though a department is big enough to have a budget, they may not be the person who writes the check. Big enough companies have entire departments dedicated to doing exactly that.

Yes your agreement may very well state to be paid on that day. But when the invoice was sent can matter. Many things can matter.

The larger point is that they will not change the way they do things for you. Knowing ahead of time how things work is essential. Unless of course it is firearms and then Tom is the guy to ask.

Companies of this size do not like issues. They don't have time to deal with every vendor after every single thing they do.

As I said learn from this. All you want to be paid. That is reasonable. No doubt about it. You are used to getting paid the day of the event, not 30 days layer. This is also reasonable.

But if you are shifting into a market where this is standard practice, and often larger companies operate this way, it might behoove you to accept and learn this.

I don't think you are unreasonable at all. I understand what you are going through and it makes sense. I only purpose you learn from this. Even with an agreement signed, if company practice is net 30 that will be your schedule.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 02:38PM)
Danny, he has been doing it professionally for 10 years now. This is the first time he hasnít been paid.
He probably shouldnít be worried about changing his policies now.

Like Wdavis said, sometimes you need to write it off and move on if it drags out very long. But until that
time he just needs to keep reminding them that it is overdue. Nothing wrong with that.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 03:02PM)
Actually there can be a LOT wrong with that. If they are on a net 45 and you keep reminding them you are a pest who will not be hired again.

After 10 years he is moving into a market where this happens. Closing eyes and not being aware is your solution. Sure it might work but is not a good one.

Learn and adapt and grow and move forward. My billing policies change as I grow, move into new markets or as technology allows for. A HUGE percentage of my business is done through ACH transfers now. Heck that is how we pay people. I an having trouble remembering the last physical check I got.

Not all markets are like this. Not all markets are one way or another. The idea of not adapting new policy because one had worked for 10 years is absurd.

Why do you argue about things you never do? It is mind boggling.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 03:47PM)
It is absolutely amazing that EVERY single posts ends up going the same around here (even when I'm not around here!).

I am sure this is simply a matter of a professional market client having their own professional market billing procedure and system. Your check will arrive within the next two weeks likely. Companies will not change the way they operate to accommodate an entertainer. The operate according to professional market standards and operations. Most using a net (30) billing, with submission perhaps only processed once a month or every other week period is common.

Yes they didn't adhere to your contract. Did they pay a deposit? My guess is not. That could also be a par tof the problem. If you are a first time vendor to this company, the first contact or engagement requires establishing your account within the company and their system. If a deposit was requested and fulfilled, this would have been done which could have made the balance due much easier as per your agreement. My guess is that it wasn't and all of this, which involves several departments, more than just the person who booked you, and is in process as we speak. All of this must be done before the final department will issue a check.

Perhaps this could also have been avoided if you requested deposit and/or full payment via credit card. The process could have been differently.

Danny & Walter have provided excellent insight into this, which again is a great example of the differences between professional market operations, and consumer.

Yes the OP has been performing 10 years, but I am guessing mostly consumer market clients/bookings. As I've said before nearly every issue here in this forum is directly related to this concept.

But lets not give consumer level advice to a professional market situation.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 03:55PM)
Danny I am always impressed with how little I know.

But maybe itís that I missed where he said this was a brand new market to him.
Maybe I miss read where he said he had been doing it professionally for 10 years.
I thought he was simply wanting to know how to get his money.

Mindpro, you right you and Danny both are 'guessing'

Regardless of what their company policies are, they were using his contract, HIS policy.

Any idea on how he can get his money on this deal? That was the question. He didn't want a
lecture on how unprofessional he is. My God.

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (May 8, 2017 04:10PM)
We don't even know if this was a professional or consumer level gig.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 8, 2017 04:15PM)
Thanks for info all. It was professional gig at a 5 star hotel. I certainly do not want to create havoc here on the Cafť. Im not so concerned about this company hiring me again. This was a convention where I live and they came in from out of town. If they pay once a month or quarter, I feel they should have just told me that. Way back when I did school shows there was a big delay in being paid. I get that. Not knowing up front is the problem It is obvious though the woman who hired me and refuses to answer any of my emails has no clue how I am being paid. With companies, I have never had this problem so I do it though a simple contract invoice sent to them and get paid at event or sometimes a deposit if I feel its necessary.

My concern is if the woman happened to hire me without authorization. Guess I will find out. I have all the emails...

I would just like an explanation and just waiting and nothing explained really bothers me. If its being unprofessional calling and asking, I guess I am just that....not needing it to pay bills right now but the principal is I gave extra to this gig, more time then I was allotted and then feel I am getting the business from them.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 04:18PM)
Correct, but most trade or industry shows (if this is what this truly was) are professional markets. However, I do realize that some here mistakenly refer to local business expos and other such events as "trade shows." By the sound of the payment problem it leads me to believe this could be a trade show though.

This is why I asked the OP the questions I have, to learn for sure and to get more of the facts surrounding this situation, which will help to offer proper advice.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 04:18PM)
Decomposed

You have every right to your money. Bug'em until they pay you.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 04:28PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, thomasR wrote:
We don't even know if this was a professional or consumer level gig. [/quote]

thomasR, also based on what we know, the OP has a job/blue career outside of performing, the types of performances he has done, his attempt on AGT and the area he is in is what I have made my beliefs.

I don't believe a deposit was requested/received, his definition of "performing professionally for ten years" means something completely different than working professional markets for ten years, and working for companies is much different than working professional markets as has been established long ago.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (May 8, 2017 04:39PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
This is why I asked the OP the questions I have, to learn for sure and to get more of the facts surrounding this situation, which will help to offer proper advice. [/quote]

Great, can't wait to read the advice!
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 04:44PM)
Mindpro

What do you mean by ďhis attempt on AGT? He WAS ON it. I watched it, he did a great job.
Thatís all that is required to get credit for being there.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 8, 2017 04:48PM)
I just want to get paid. Its more the principal of the issue. And not getting answers or an explanation from the company I think is unprofessional. I am independent. I receive plenty of gigs, more then I can handle. But regardless of what kind of performer I am, the company reached out to me, not the other way around. I accepted the gig and performed strolling at a 5 star hotel for 2 hours. Actually longer. The woman was pleased and as the norm, plenty of accolades from the ones I entertained. But right now I thank everyone. I really wanted to know if this ever happened to anyone. Not necessarily the delay but its like I never even worked for them now.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 04:49PM)
Sure he did. Your point?
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 8, 2017 04:50PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro

What do you mean by ďhis attempt on AGT? He WAS ON it. I watched it, he did a great job.
Thatís all that is required to get credit for being there.

Tom [/quote]


LOL, I think he meant I did not make it all the way Tom. That was years ago, thanks for you kindness.
:bigsmile: :bigsmile:
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 04:53PM)
It wasn't "kindness" it was just taking something else out of context in an attmept to get more attacks in on Danny or myself.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2017 04:54PM)
So were you actually on the trade show floor performing? Was it actually a trade show (not many trade shows take place in 5 star hotels)? Was there a deposit received?

Now in retrospect, was there anything your felt you could have done differently?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 04:57PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Decomposed wrote:
I just want to get paid. Its more the principal of the issue. And not getting answers or an explanation from the company I think is unprofessional. I am independent. I receive plenty of gigs, more then I can handle. But regardless of what kind of performer I am, the company reached out to me, not the other way around. I accepted the gig and performed strolling at a 5 star hotel for 2 hours. Actually longer. The woman was pleased and as the norm, plenty of accolades from the ones I entertained. But right now I thank everyone. I really wanted to know if this ever happened to anyone. Not necessarily the delay but its like I never even worked for them now. [/quote]

Yes you just want to be paid. And should.

I personally would ignore advice from people who never do this sort of thing. Certainly ignore those who advocate using a firearm to get it.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 8, 2017 05:10PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
So were you actually on the trade show floor performing? Was it actually a trade show (not many trade shows take place in 5 star hotels)? Was there a deposit received?

Now in retrospect, was there anything your felt you could have done differently? [/quote]

You know MP it was the weirdest tradeshow I ever worked. I normally dislike trade shows but this was more of a mixer and it appeared lots of companies had booked rooms also and had entertainers. So the woman said tradeshow but that was across the street at the convention center. This was more of a mixer....people coming in and out with the traditional name tags. This was at night. But to see the hotel rooms all booked, a stilt walker when I left etc was really neat. Also star war characters walking around the halls.

And no, no deposit. But company is legit, woman had to have received approval because it was many weeks in the making. When she hired me, I sent an email and contract to her and also W9. Woman does work there, company email etc etc. Now that was then. Several phone calls, hard copy of contract invoice mailed to company, spoke with guy who called me back etc..

Differently, no not really. Especially with a major company. Private gig, certainly I have to be aware and getting scammed there is a real possibility. Only once though a woman wanted to meet and pay me the next day. I ended that discussion right there. But with companies, its never been this lack of communication.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (May 8, 2017 05:35PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Now in retrospect, was there anything your felt you could have done differently? [/quote]

Come on now, you don't need this info to offer the advice.
Can't wait until the advice!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 06:21PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Decomposed wrote:
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
So were you actually on the trade show floor performing? Was it actually a trade show (not many trade shows take place in 5 star hotels)? Was there a deposit received?

Now in retrospect, was there anything your felt you could have done differently? [/quote]

You know MP it was the weirdest tradeshow I ever worked. I normally dislike trade shows but this was more of a mixer and it appeared lots of companies had booked rooms also and had entertainers. So the woman said tradeshow but that was across the street at the convention center. This was more of a mixer....people coming in and out with the traditional name tags. This was at night. But to see the hotel rooms all booked, a stilt walker when I left etc was really neat. Also star war characters walking around the halls.

And no, no deposit. But company is legit, woman had to have received approval because it was many weeks in the making. When she hired me, I sent an email and contract to her and also W9. Woman does work there, company email etc etc. Now that was then. Several phone calls, hard copy of contract invoice mailed to company, spoke with guy who called me back etc..

Differently, no not really. Especially with a major company. Private gig, certainly I have to be aware and getting scammed there is a real possibility. Only once though a woman wanted to meet and pay me the next day. I ended that discussion right there. But with companies, its never been this lack of communication. [/quote]
In general lack of communication is not unusual.

The reason is that they have all those departments and policy in place. So they don't feel as if they are unresponsive. They are just doing business how they do business.

I do think it was a but of a shortfall on both of you not to know and agree to payment terms. Even if it is standard in the industry she should have read your contract that said payment day of and talked about it with you. You certainly should have clarified terms with her more clearly.

It is only communication.

Ultimately you must want to be paid. Makes sense to me.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 8, 2017 08:00PM)
Actually Danny the communication was right on right up to and at the gig. It was clearly understood she would bring the check to the performance. When I got there, she told me some story that the check had not been cut yet etc etc. It was sincere and just an oversight and I definitely wanted a good experience and I told her okay, surely I would be paid the following week. Well now, the last email from her a week or go more or less said that the payment would be released in May, but it was suppose to be released before gig. Then several emails sent with no response now. She was just a go between. Had many of these over the years but none turned out like this one. Just knowing what is going on is not too much to ask since I am the one suffering. Of course Im thankful I don't need to this to pay Mafioso... :exercise:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2017 08:17PM)
Wanting to be paid? How dare you! Wanting to know why you are not? The heck you say! What sort of person wants these things?

Seems like pretty reasonable position to me.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2017 08:29PM)
Man you need to go ahead and call my old yard man to go get your money. LOL (Yes that is a joke)

Like I said if it is one time in ten years, you are lucky. Wish I had every dollar I lost in business. Itís just a part of doing business oh.

Still you want your money and have nothing to lose by staying in contact with them. Bug em, Bug em, Bugíem, Thatís what a collection agent would do. Most people will pay when they see that is the only way to stop the phone from ringing. You can be nice and still be persistence at the same time.

I use to have a stack of collection letter templates that I used over the years. Iím sure you can find some free ones on line. Most can easily be reworded to fit any business, may be good for future use.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 9, 2017 09:17AM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, the Sponge wrote:
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Now in retrospect, was there anything your felt you could have done differently? [/quote]

Come on now, you don't need this info to offer the advice.
Can't wait until the advice! [/quote]


I'm not sure what this means or implies, but anyways...

Decompomsed, to answer your original question, yes, it has happened to others including myself back in the 80's when I first began working the trade show market. Trade shows are a huge professional market, although today while still huge, not as much as during the boom in the late 80s, 90s and early 2000s. It is the main reason I moved to Las Vegas. Not to have a show on the strip (never my interest or intention), but rather to live and work in the trade show capital of the world.

As I have stated before, this is likely a Consumer vs. Professional market issue with both you and the client. Not a big deal once understood and accepted. I will share a story...

I had something similar happen to me in the late 80's. I now realize the true situation, which is why I asked if you would have done everything differently. I felt there was some nifo and details being held back from you in this thread which now has confirmed my suspicions.

When this first happened to me and I identified this (which is by the way much differently to something similar happening in the school market. It looks similar or the same but for different reasons most often) I actually created a trade show business program (for the trade show industry - corporations, not for the talent, entertainers or speakers) that was adopted and eventually became a software business program, I did this because of the opposing operational processes between the talent and the booking representative, team, etc,

So YES, now that I know the rest of the details (as I said earlier) I believe you will receive payment probably withing the next two weeks. Don't worry about collections, attorney or "bug 'em, bug 'em as Tom says and certainly no weapons, it is simply working its way through their process and payment will arrive. If you don't receive it by the end of this month (May) then I would start to look at it differently (possibly) but at this point I wouldnlt be concerned.

I can tell you exactly what happened. You approached this as you have most of all of your bookings for the last ten years, primarily as a consumer market performer. While I do not understand why you didn't request a deposit (which could have prevented or at least identified this problem/situation much earlier and allowed it to begin to be dealt with before the event rather than after), you really have to understand the trade show process for this all to make sense here. I won't explain it all here but as an general overview most trade shows are produced by a team, committee or department within a company. These "teams" typically handle all facets of trade show participation including sponsorship, exhibit booth, ads, programs, design, staffing, construction of their display, shipping, purchasing, electrical, hospitality, travel, lodging, meals, networking events, banquets and receptions, sales associates, sales training, campaign design creation implementation, spouse events, dinners, lunches, breakfasts, educational sessions, crowd gatherers, brand ambassadors, demonstrators or samplers, literature distributors, models, and of course speakers, presenters, attractions and entertainers (and really so much more). These teams range from at the smallest of 4-5 people to typically up to 120 people, each with their own specific area within a single trade show operation.

They may be working on 10-12 different and individual trade shows per year nationally or world wide. Each trade show team begins with a budget usually managed by a Comptroller or Senior Event Manager (occasionally called a Trade Show Manager or Director). ALL elements must go though and be approved by him or her (including in this case you as an entertainer). Almost everything is paid based on their process (regardless of what your contract says) which usually entails after the event having sometimes up to 30 days for all of the team members to submit "Final Invoicing and Reports" for everything related to them. The reason this doesn't even begin until after the event is there are many last minute, on-premise and unforeseen costs that can and almost always do arise just before, at during or in post-production of the event. So this Final Invoicing may happen the week after the event if the team is sharp, tight and quite together and on top of things, or it may take several week, perhaps up to 30 days just for every final element to be submitted for payment. Then they usually operate on a 30-45 day pay basis after that, which is currently exactly in line with the timeframe you are experiencing for your event.

The person (lady) that contacted you and made arrangements for your appearance, did so, and then had to submit for approval from a supervisor, manger or financial rep. She likely had to create and submit some type of formal proposal or submission for consideration/recommendation or detail outlining you, the event and your purpose. That is why it originally probably took time to get approved and progress to the booking stage. You then simply submitted your consumer level contract, which she or someone from the finance team would likely requested you complete a W-9 and usually ask for an invoice in additon to your contract. If they didn't ask for it, your booking lady may have had to create an in-house one in order for your payment to properly be proceed within their system.

This is the key. It all is done within their standard system or process, regardless of what your contract, paperwork or conversation has stated. You rep only dealt with research recruiting and confirming your services, after that it was handed off to others in different areas of their process (likely financial/accounting) to continue through their process. If you would have had a contract more appropriate for a professional market client (and such process/system) their system or process wouldn't seem so foreign to you or it would be more acceptable and understandable. I believe, knowing the professional trade show market process, your payment is in the processing phase and will be completed within the nest 2-3 weeks. It is quite normal once you understand their process and system.

Also once you understand their process and system you can know how to proper invoice them in a way that works within their system, yet still to the terms of your agreement. For example each trade show usually has a Corporate AmEx to be used for advances, which if you understand and know how, can be used to include talent deposits, IF you know how to set it up this way and be able to utilize such a position. When I do trade shows, I get the deposit upon confirmation, and my balance is all paid in full 10 days before the first day of the event. The only possible thing that may be a post-event factor is travel, expenses, reimbusements, etc. and even them=n, if you understand their operational process and system, this can be covered in advance too.

The reason you feel a runaround is the girl that originally booked you was actually done with her role in the process once she confirmed your services, Your transaction was then handed off to their next department/person in their process. That person probably began by creating your vendor file (along with requesting your W-9, invoice, etc.). Once they were done copies of your file (pertaining to your appearance) were then distributed to other departments including Project Manager, the Floor Manager, payroll, and so on. So after the event when you called the rep that booked you you began asking questions about your check which she couldn't possibly know or handle because it is not her department. That is why she likely forwarded your message to other team members and with their help have been trying to get to the point it is currently at in their process.

Unfortunately, like most corporate employees, they only know about their role in the process. So by you calling you are trying to find out where this is at the current time and what is the expectation for the completion of their process, is something your rep likely can not truly answer. Of course the intitial people you were dealing with, who by now have long did their job and moved on, are being asked to be brought back into this on your behalf to try to discover its current status.

I get your concern, but don't let the advice offered by some here that have no experience with the market, the level of operation and such processes try to provide you information and advice on something they haven't a clue about.

There are things you could have done to prevent this, but you were likely completely unaware of.

I will say I do feel you were a bit mislead from the lady you were dealing with. What you performed was NOT trade show, but rather a fringe event of the convention. This is like performers that work a company Christmas Party and falsely believe they are working the corporate market. What you worked was a hospitality or networking event, which are quite popular as part of conventions or conferences, and for anyone that truly understands the trade show market, it is here that much of the business and deals are created, cultivated and executed. So while it is part of the convention or conference festivities, it is not actually part of the trade show itself.

It is imporant for performers to know about these markets and their role within a greater picture such as in this example. My next set of questions (which you don't have to answer as I likely know they answers) is what pricing did you charge? - consumer event pricing or professional event pricing? This is likely how or why you got the booking (as a local) and is likely playing another role in what you are seeing as a delay in being paid issue.

I think you should just wait it out as I feel payment will arrive. I may be wrong, but I doubt it. In their eyes, nothing is wrong and you are just being a pushy performer pestering them for your pay. Now I agree, the process should have been better explained to you, but I am guessing the lower level team member that booked you may not even know all of this herself. When the financial person is contacted and being told "his contract said he was to be paid the night of the event" they're probably (I almost guarantee it) thinking, "well that's not how we do things around here" and just are proceeding with their normal business as usual process.

As entertainers (or speakers) we must understand the systems, operations, processes and expectations of those we are working with. It is part of being a professional, Now understand I am not saying you have done anything wrong, but just showing once again, their are different levels of performers, different levels of business, different levels of makrets, and different levels and means of operations. As entertainment business professionals, it is up to us to learn this to properly and best serve out markets and clients. We also need to be able to identify when something is beyound our level or position, and how to learn to progress to these advance levels if this is what we choose to serve.

Keep us posted.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 10:51AM)
Could you please provide context for your post and give specific examples?
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (May 9, 2017 11:00AM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Could you please provide context for your post and give specific examples? [/quote]
This is a textbook response, given the conversation. I really need to further develop such skills.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 11:11AM)
As helpful as it may be for some in the future, it has nothing to do with this show that is over.

This has nothing to do with them being a big company or that he did a show outside of his league. Saying they are a huge company and they have a right to change his contract or delay payment without his approval is a joke. It shouldnít have to work its way through the payment process when it is already past due.

He did the right thing from the beginning, he set the rules, they agreed, and now they need to pay up. He is owed an apologue by the company, and he deserves his money.

Anybody disagree?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 11:21AM)
Nobody said he isn't owed his money.

The only thing those of us who actually do this are saying is it might be a procedure. We have provided context to what we are offering, we work regularly and currently in those markets and offered thoughts and experience based on that.

If it is in their system nobody has done anything wrong. No apology will be forthcoming. It is what it is. The only one who owes an apology is you for such horrible advice.

This is where you give VERY BAD advice that costs people money. This is why never having done these things and still choosing to bloviate about them is bad. If you had any experience as a professional in this area it would help. All you offer is stories of gardeners with guns that simply have nothing to do with the problem at hand.

Please stop. It does not help anyone.

The way companies work when paying this sort of thing is simply different then you can seem to comprehend. But please do not continue to confuse others with your misunderstanding.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 9, 2017 11:28AM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, Cafťcheckers wrote
This is a textbook response, given the conversation. I really need to further develop such skills. [/quote]

It's simply conversation but it is based on both understanding and experience. So many here speak about something the truly do not understand (an opinion is not the same as an understanding) or have experience with.

No further skills to develop, simply allow yourself to learn, understand and gain experience (real experience and understanding the the right sources).

Success comes from experience. Limited experience only brings limited success. Allow yourself to learn, understand and gain experience (real experience and understanding) from the the right sources.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 11:32AM)
Danny,

Itís ok for a company to redo your contract?

Thatís the WRONG advice that seems to be coming out here.

But hey, thatís just me, maybe you do allow companies to run over you, I donít

Tom
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 9, 2017 11:36AM)
I disagree, he didn't do the right thing.

The right thing was to either decline the gig, or to Amend the contract with signatures for enforceability.

The rules changed once he agreed to then worked without pay. By doing so, he essentially voided that section of his contract if not all of it. If he doesn't allow for a joint and severible clause. he essentially gave them permission to run him thru their accounting mill.

Walter
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 11:39AM)
Decline the gig? Oh my God I have heard it all now.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 9, 2017 11:40AM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
As helpful as it may be for some in the future, it has nothing to do with this show that is over.

This has nothing to do with them being a big company or that he did a show outside of his league. Saying they are a huge company and they have a right to change his contract or delay payment without his approval is a joke. It shouldnít have to work its way through the payment process when it is already past due.

He did the right thing from the beginning, he set the rules, they agreed, and now they need to pay up. He is owed an apologue by the company, and he deserves his money.

Anybody disagree?

Tom [/quote]


Yes, completely because all of things you stated were never said. Every single one of the except he is owed his pay.

I never said anywhere that the OP did a show outside of his league - never said.

No one ever said anything about the size of the company or it being a big company - never said.

This thread (as as well as every other current thread you are posting in) contains many things never said,. Things you have taken put your own negative twist on to say or mean things never intended, Danny is right, please stop!


All he is owed by the company is his pay.

You are really are starting to believe your own BS and distorted perceptions of things never said. And once again will solely derail this thread as well - you can't help yourself. He came in her asking SPECIFICALLY to hear form those with experience IN THIS EXACT SITUATION - that is not you. Anything you offer is only perception based on how you twist reality and things that have been said. Some of us here are really trying to offer help, assistance and guidence to the OP.

IT DOES have to do with this situation regardless if the show is over. He still has to deal with them and payment is still pending.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 11:42AM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, WDavis wrote:
I disagree, he didn't do the right thing.

The right thing was to either decline the gig, or to Amend the contract with signatures for enforceability.

The rules changed once he agreed to then worked without pay. By doing so, he essentially voided that section of his contract if not all of it. If he doesn't allow for a joint and severible clause. he essentially gave them permission to run him thru their accounting mill.

Walter [/quote]

Yes this is true. This is why understanding is so important.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 11:43AM)
Am I the only one here that understands that he had an agreement to be paid on the spot?


Tom
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 9, 2017 11:46AM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Decline the gig? Oh my God I have heard it all now.

Tom [/quote]

Why not? I'm a professional and my services are desirable. If this company, didn't follow our mutually accepted procedure or sign an amended contract dictating new terms, I leave. I will not let my business be ran by someone else. If I am so hard up, I can't afford to decline a gig - I have a problem. If I am psychologically so needy I can't say no to them, the client won't respect me professionally and I will end up losing.

In the end it's knowing my value and not compromising on it. I have certain hard fast rules with my value and by holding fast to them I've increased my money.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 9, 2017 11:50AM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, WDavis wrote:
I disagree, he didn't do the right thing.

The right thing was to either decline the gig, or to Amend the contract with signatures for enforceability.

The rules changed once he agreed to then worked without pay. By doing so, he essentially voided that section of his contract if not all of it. If he doesn't allow for a joint and severible clause. he essentially gave them permission to run him thru their accounting mill.

Walter [/quote]

I agree with you Walter. The problem is in the way the terms were setup by him originally. Asking for pay "the night of the event" is a very consumer-market approach which is so open ended as it doesn't specifically state upon arrival or setup, it could as be following the performance. At that point your position in the deal has been greatly compromised. Again, this would have been identified and come to light and likely avoided if he had requested a deposit.

So now he is dealing with an aftermath based on his compromised position and violation of his own agreement. I do think he will still be paid, but has put himself in a poor position in the interim. The rules absolutely changes because of his own actions. He essentially allowed this to happen.

So now we get to the current position. With all of that said and understood,how is it best to proceed to receive payment. Bugging them as Tom suggests is definitely not the answer. He should PROFESSIONALLY (not like a ****ed off consumer in line at customer service Walmart or the Piggly Wiggly) proceed accordingly.

How he proceeds could likely determine the outcome of this relationship, which seems to at this point be diminished to just a transaction rather that a developing relationship.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 11:51AM)
WDavis, at what point would you have declined?

At the show?

Tom
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 11:55AM)
Mindpro, why shouldn't he bug'em?
He doesn't owe them any respect after the way they treated him.
He won't do another show for them. He just wants his money.


And speaking of Piggly Wiggly, at one time I owned a huge part of a 32 store chain of the supermarkets.
If the company there had given someone the runaround about payment like this, yes they would receive an apology.

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (May 9, 2017 12:11PM)
Asking for money day of show is very common in the professional market. Major concerts (im talking about arena shows, theatre shows etc.) typically settle with the promoter after the show. (I tour full time with major concert shows).

All of my contracts with the variety shows I produce (almost exclusively with consumer level, as they are city planners, company employees, Etc. Who do not plan entertainment professionally) state payment is due in full at the conclusion of the last performance. In 10 years, I don't think this has ever been an issue although some have done a direct deposit.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 12:19PM)
I agree, it's not uncommon at all to ask for payment up front.

It's also not uncommon at all for a company to understand that a stranger will require such payment.

Tom
Message: Posted by: WDavis (May 9, 2017 01:13PM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
WDavis, at what point would you have declined?

At the show?

Tom [/quote]

He was told at the event he wouldn't be paid.at that moment is when you start renegotiating the contract, get signatures etc. if I can't get an executed amendment then, I walk. I immediately follow up with an email to the department head stating my disappointment on the outcome of the engagement and wish them success in future endevours.

I have had situations like this before, and it's by walking away and the respectful letter of disappointment, I've received calls from the real buyer of my service and their personally involvement to rectify or correct the matter from occurring again.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 01:36PM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, WDavis wrote:
[quote]On May 9, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
WDavis, at what point would you have declined?

At the show?

Tom [/quote]

He was told at the event he wouldn't be paid.at that moment is when you start renegotiating the contract, get signatures etc. if I can't get an executed amendment then, I walk. I immediately follow up with an email to the department head stating my disappointment on the outcome of the engagement and wish them success in future endevours.

I have had situations like this before, and it's by walking away and the respectful letter of disappointment, I've received calls from the real buyer of my service and their personally involvement to rectify or correct the matter from occurring again. [/quote]

Thanks Walter.

Yes I can see that happening. But when itís never happened to you before I can also understand thinking, Iím here already why not hope it works out. We sometimes learn the hard way I guess :)

I have a friend that booked Willie Nelson for a local opening here last year. Not only does he require upfront big bucks he demands it all be in cash.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 01:46PM)
Tom why do you keep contradicting people who actually do this? You will never learn, we get it. But please stop hindering others from learning.

This is not about your ego out your inability to stop posting or pretending you are the world's foremost authority or telling stories about your imaginary friends. This is important and will cost people money to think so short sighted like you. You are not helping anything. Just please stop. You don't know everything and in this case you know woefully little.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (May 9, 2017 01:59PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ö.often they are on net 30 or net 45 with invoices. [/quote]

As Danny pointed out early on page one different companies work in different ways. It may be completely normal for this company to pay 45 or more days later no matter what the contract said. They may not have even read the contract! If so, this is not even a cause for concern yet because it hasnít even been 30 days.

Dealing with schools [b]is[/b] something I know about. I state on every contract that the agreed upon fee is due after the performance. However, many schools will not even begin the payment process until after the performance. Sometimes I have to wait 3 months or more. Sometimes I will politely remind them that I havenít been paid yet and ask is there anything I can do. Iím not bugging them or insinuating they are doing something shady.

I always get paid. No need for concern.

Different ways to do business in different markets.

The private party market I treat differently. I state on my confirmation letters (no contracts here) that there is no money due until after the show and only if they are completely satisfied.

I always get paid (except for an extremely low percentage of bounced checks. Like 2 in 25 years) So, no need for concern here either.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 02:13PM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, Ken Northridge wrote:
[quote]On May 8, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ö.often they are on net 30 or net 45 with invoices. [/quote]

As Danny pointed out early on page one different companies work in different ways. It may be completely normal for this company to pay 45 or more days later no matter what the contract said. They may not have even read the contract! If so, this is not even a cause for concern yet because it hasnít even been 30 days.

Dealing with schools [b]is[/b] something I know about. I state on every contract that the agreed upon fee is due after the performance. However, many schools will not even begin the payment process until after the performance. Sometimes I have to wait 3 months or more. Sometimes I will politely remind them that I havenít been paid yet and ask is there anything I can do. Iím not bugging them or insinuating they are doing something shady.

I always get paid. No need for concern.

Different ways to do business in different markets.

The private party market I treat differently. I state on my confirmation letters (no contracts here) that there is no money due until after the show and only if they are completely satisfied.

I always get paid (except for an extremely low percentage of bounced checks. Like 2 in 25 years) So, no need for concern here either. [/quote]

I had no idea schools operated in that fashion. The only time I ever dealt with schools is in post proms and the agency paid me not the school. That is interesting.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 02:24PM)
Ken, I think a delay can be expected when dealing with local State or Federal officials.

Private Companies may have forty different pay procedures but if you are calling the shots the way you should be, they will play by your rules regardless of their normal polices.

Danny you can dance around all you want, but pay up front means pay up front. But you right I am just repeating myself.
Hopefully everyone gets it and wont be mislead by you. I will stop now, you should too.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (May 9, 2017 02:41PM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Private Companies may have forty different pay procedures but if you are calling the shots the way you should be, they will play by your rules regardless of their normal polices.
[/quote]

Of course they SHOULD! But a certain amount of flexibility on the performers part will go a long way in getting a repeat booking. Its all about a positive experience from first contact to final payment.

As I said, when I have someone paying late, I don't assume they are trying to screw me. I just assume the company may not have all of the right people in the right places. A few friendly reminders is usually all it takes.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 02:54PM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:

Danny you can dance around all you want, but pay up front means pay up front. But you right I am just repeating myself.
Hopefully everyone gets it and wont be mislead by you. I will stop now, you should too.

Tom [/quote]

Not just me.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 9, 2017 06:09PM)
Okay got an update. I called again today and talked to the woman who just answers the phone. I was extremely polite and spilled out the story. She mentioned the male I spoke to and I told her (not knowing he is now out of the country) that I had already tried him but have not heard back. She then transferred me to a woman who handles invoices. Yea! Anyway to make a long story boring, she is moving on it. Crazy system they have The pay actually comes from India. She had no invoices from me or W9s. So I emailed all that and my correspondence with the woman who hired me. She actually promised to handle it and apologized more then once. COMMUNICATION! I received an email this afternoon and it she said payment is scheduled for the 25th of May and said that was the best she could do at this point. I told her that was great and now I am in their system, it was a lovely gig and all that.............................damage control. But, wheels are moving! :righton:

Please everyone stop bickering! :bawl:

Decomposing Paycheck Due to Inflation and India :spinningcoin:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 9, 2017 06:12PM)
Like we said in the system. Makes perfect sense.

Glad to hear it.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2017 06:27PM)
Glad to hear it and its good to see she apologized.

Tom

You know what to do after the 25th. :)
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 9, 2017 10:47PM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:

You know what to do after the 25th. :) [/quote]

Not a D@#N thing! If payment is scheduled to be processed the 25th you will likely see it in 7-10 days following that (perhaps more if coming from India.) So NO, you would do nothing on the 25, 26th or anytime after for at least a couple of weeks. Tom's thread should be titled, the best way to lose an account and your reputation with a client. Such a terrible way to do business. Such terrible advice.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 9, 2017 10:56PM)
Seems my insight into this matter was pretty spot on. Glad you feel better and as I believed you will see your check. I'm guessing they only process these once or twice a month. If processed on the 25th it is usually for the 30th or end of the month run of expenses, payroll, etc. When I had my radio station (and several other of my current businesses) we did the very same - payroll on the 1st and 15th and only the last period of the month was for/included expenses, miscellaneous invoices, reimbursements, etc. We only did it once a month as well.

Tom, out of all the great information in this thread, the apology (by a nobody, low level phone operator who has nothing to do with the transaction or knows nothing about any facet of this) is the only thing you focus on? So sad.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 9, 2017 11:06PM)
[quote]On May 9, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Asking for money day of show is very common in the professional market. Major concerts (im talking about arena shows, theatre shows etc.) typically settle with the promoter after the show. (I tour full time with major concert shows).

All of my contracts with the variety shows I produce (almost exclusively with consumer level, as they are city planners, company employees, Etc. Who do not plan entertainment professionally) state payment is due in full at the conclusion of the last performance. In 10 years, I don't think this has ever been an issue although some have done a direct deposit. [/quote]

I agree, many professional markets, especially those that are that are gate/door-reliant do settle immediately following the performance. One of the take away points is all markets are not the same consumer and/or professional). Most of the information I have referred to was about specifically about the professional trade show market. It is also important to point out in the type of pro market gigs you mention a much more complete contact and terms (and rider) is usually clearly stated and in place.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 10, 2017 09:12AM)
Mindpro, that add on comment I made was another joke referring back to the gun story. You need to come down to the real world.

Sounds to me like that 'low level phone operator' is the one that handled it well.

Still my guess is he doesnít care that much about doing business with those that take forever to pay after being accustomed to being paid that day. But yes, if he wants to go that route, waiting is ok.

So please, don't anybody go hiring a gunslinger on my account. :)


Tom
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 10, 2017 04:50PM)
Yeah and she emailed me again today. It seems everyone was out of the country, or out of the office on the same weeks when I attempted to get in touch with them. There are so many forms associated with payments, one being an exception form. :coffee:
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 10, 2017 05:04PM)
Walter was probably right, you should have walked.:)

Just curious but did that cross your mind there at the show?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2017 05:10PM)
I love the guy who never performs adding sarcastic comments to the guy who does.

Tom being sarcastic to Walter doesn't make your position correct.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 10, 2017 05:14PM)
[quote]On May 10, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Walter was probably right, you should have walked.:)

Just curious but did that cross your mind there at the show?

Tom [/quote]


Walter, please don't take this as being sarcastic, it's not.
Like I said before, your post about walking did make sense.
I also said we learn from hindsight.

Thanks
Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2017 05:19PM)
What was it if not sarcastic? Of course it was a shot at Walter. Don't apologize to him which he deserves.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (May 14, 2017 11:27PM)
I was out of town last night performing at a high end college graduation party. I was booked via Gig Masters. Maybe I am too trusting but once the deposit is paid, I leave it up to the client to pay at the event. This has always worked out for me (with G.M. gigs) and results in a happy client at the completion. Last night, at the after show party, I was asked if I wanted a cash or check with the comment they would rather pay by check since they did not want to part with so much cash at the time. I gladly accepted the check with a generous tip I might add. The only thing that could have gone better would have been that the check be made out to my registered business instead of just of my stage name. That should be no problem since I deposit all of my checks into my business account anyways. :stircoffee:

PS: Only 11 days to go for the release of my check that started this delightful thread. :bigsmile:
Message: Posted by: swmagic08 (May 28, 2021 02:58PM)
I know that these are older posts, but I was curious about the subject because for the most part I always get paid right up front. According to my contract, I require a 25% deposit and the rest is collected immediately following my performance. For businesses however, I still collect a 25% deposit but the contract is different stating they have 30 days from the date of the performance to pay the balance. I have never had an issue except with one company which took 3 months to pay but they also had to pay a late fee which is also in my contract. If your a performer and you have a contract, you call the shots and if a company or individual does not agree with your contract than they don't get my services. Plain and simple as that.
Message: Posted by: ezystreamlive (May 28, 2021 08:18PM)
The worst for me is when the accounts department wants me to sign up as a vendor as the "system only pays vendors" and I'm like- "after delaying payment for 2 months this is the only time I am working for you" and then theres a 5 page vendor form to fill in but only the accounts department knows about it- the person who hires you doesn't know about the vendor form. Big companies can be just that- Big machines and the cogs don't communicate with other cogs
Message: Posted by: KungFuMagic (May 29, 2021 04:28AM)
The comments about forms and cogs gives me a heads-up to include a paragraph in my contract regarding the client's being responsible to provide all necessary forms and documents needed for compensation in a timely (read "prior to performance") manner, and failure to provide needed documents shall not be proof against any contractual late fees or penalties.

I don't return on time ... my bad.
They don't do their due diligence to get me the needed forms ... their bad.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 29, 2021 07:45AM)
[quote]On May 28, 2021, swmagic08 wrote:
I know that these are older posts, but I was curious about the subject because for the most part I always get paid right up front. According to my contract, I require a 25% deposit and the rest is collected immediately following my performance.

For businesses however, I still collect a 25% deposit but the contract is different stating they have 30 days from the date of the performance to pay the balance.

If your a performer and you have a contract, you call the shots and if a company or individual does not agree with your contract than they don't get my services. Plain and simple as that. [/quote]

Your first post, welcome!

I found your post a bit confusing and contradictory. You state you always get paid upfront, then in the next sentence describe payment terms of a 25% deposit and payment following the performance?

Then say you accept a net-30 for payment, but then say it's your contract and you call the shots. Do it my way or you don't get my services.

This all just seems contradictory to me.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (May 29, 2021 09:22AM)
[quote]On May 29, 2021, KungFuMagic wrote:
The comments about forms and cogs gives me a heads-up to include a paragraph in my contract regarding the client's being responsible to provide all necessary forms and documents needed for compensation in a timely (read "prior to performance") manner, and failure to provide needed documents shall not be proof against any contractual late fees or penalties.

I don't return on time ... my bad.
They don't do their due diligence to get me the needed forms ... their bad. [/quote]

Your mileage may vary of course but the phrase ďto be paid upon completion of final performanceĒ has always worked for me.

Iíve found that for me, itís best to keep the contracts as short and simple as possible.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 29, 2021 10:55AM)
Why would anyone wait until after the performance to be paid?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 29, 2021 12:22PM)
As I mentioned in one of my books, a contract serves many purposes, only one of which is the terms of payment. Often times your contract should be part of something much larger which demonstrates your professionalism, peace of mind to the purchaser, value, and much more.

I can't tell you how many times, hundreds over the years, where the client has said to us "I could tell by your "contract" (not the term I use) that you were the most professional entertainer we've ever dealt with."

Each time we hear that we know this is just as much of our positioning and creating the proper expectation with the client, and if necessary their team, committee, and legal department as other designed components.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 29, 2021 12:53PM)
The interesting part about these things is that often it can be as much about what is not in as what is in.

Depending on the state or the guild you are working in or with there are things that are just part of it whether you put it in the contract or not.

Contact law is a very specific field of study. The worst thing to do is think you know.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 29, 2021 01:15PM)
Also, contracts mean little if you are not willing to enforce them.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 29, 2021 03:08PM)
Or able to enforce them.