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Topic: Joe Crist
Message: Posted by: FalseDeal (Jul 2, 2017 06:25PM)
What say you Gambling Spot? Is this guy legit or full of it? For those not in the know, Oldschoolorp on Instagram posted many things about being a "high line" card worker including this piece recently:

[quote]Some of my following requested I do a post on my first meeting Cardini -- here it is. Artanis (my first high line teacher) & I were very close at this point & we drove to Brooklyn to Eddie Balduc I'm house because he had to meet Dai Vernon there. Ann who was Eddie's wife cooked us a special dinner & afterwards Vernon asked me if I would do some card work for him. Now I was a young kid at this time & had only met Vernon once before at age 9 or 10 when I completely fooled him with the classic 3 shell game. Artanis gave me the nod so I did some King work & he simply could not believe it -- he immediately jumped up, went to the phone & called the legendary Richard Cardini, this was a weeknight about 9. Everyone could hear him & he said to Cardini that he just saw the greatest card handling of his entire life & you have got to see this kid. Now I clearly remember being extremely embarrassed by this because Artanis who was one of the greatest King workers who ever lived could hear everything. Vernon was practically shouting into the phone. He gets off, comes over to me & asks if I would like to meet Cardini. I said sure. Richard was an idol of mine since babyhood & I was aware of Cardini's & Scott's meeting in 1930, & wanted to know how my work compared to Scott's when he was at the height of his game, -- the only thing was I was in super stroke with the Kings but probably only dealt a few thousand ' duces' in the last week or so, so was not in stroke at all & knew I only had this one shot to impress Richard -- so the pressure I felt was tremendous, I can assure you of that. As soon as Artanis & I were safely in his car ( we were to follow Vernon in his car to Cardini's ) I told him to please don't even speak to me & got out my cards, put the peg work on, & for the entire time it took us to get to Cardini's house, -- about 40 min. practiced my duce work. What happened next truly helped to solidify me as a living legend & was the start of one of the most beautiful friendships that I have ever known. To Be Cont...Orp.[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jul 2, 2017 07:13PM)
[quote] What happened next truly helped to solidify me as a living legend...........Orp.[/quote]

[i][b]"If you have to say you is - you ain't".[/b][/i]
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Jul 2, 2017 08:28PM)
I'm skeptical, however he does tick a couple of key boxes. Firstly if Bill Kalush thinks highly of him that gives credence to his skills. I've heard he does a number of moves well. But as for the history aspect...well let's just say I would take it with a grain of salt.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jul 2, 2017 09:16PM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2017, Artie Fufkin wrote:

[i][b]"If you have to say you is - you ain't."[/b][/i] [/quote]

Ho Ho Ho...that is not original. I researched it. It was first penned by Shakespeare.

Isn't this called, "plagiarism?" :goof:
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Jul 2, 2017 10:04PM)
One thing I will say is...it's a lot of fun to read!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 2, 2017 10:35PM)
I recall him teaching me the Lota Bowl Switch.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jul 3, 2017 11:40AM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Jul 2, 2017, Artie Fufkin wrote:

[i][b]"If you have to say you is - you ain't."[/b][/i] [/quote]

Ho Ho Ho...that is not original. I researched it. It was first penned by Shakespeare.

Isn't this called, "plagiarism?" :goof: [/quote]

Plagiarism indeed!

I lifted it from the esteemed Mr.Z - who used to post to this very forum and used it as his "sig".
Mr.Z lifted it from Jimmy Hoffa (who used it regularly) ... and Hoffa may indeed may have usurped it from The Bard :)

Most importantly though, it's a statement that has proven time and time again that it's 100% accurate.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jul 3, 2017 07:32PM)
Yes, but does the corollary apply here: "If you DON'T have say you is, does that mean you am?"
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jul 4, 2017 12:11PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
Yes, but does the corollary apply here: "If you DON'T have say you is, does that mean you am?" [/quote]

It [i]usually[/i] means exactly that :)
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jul 4, 2017 07:56PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2017, Artie Fufkin wrote:
[quote]On Jul 3, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
Yes, but does the corollary apply here: "If you DON'T have to say you is, does that mean you am?" [/quote]

It [i]usually[/i] means exactly that :) [/quote]

That's what I like best about the Gambling Spot...there is always something new and valuable to learn.
Message: Posted by: danny (Aug 22, 2017 02:35PM)
Seems legit, a lot of well respected magicians seem to know him
Message: Posted by: popcalinda (Aug 23, 2017 03:17PM)
He is a magician, not a player/cheater?
He knew Erdnase?
Cardini was a gay?
(hohoho)
Message: Posted by: danny (Aug 24, 2017 04:51AM)
I thought he was more a player/cheater than magician?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 24, 2017 10:11AM)
In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Sep 3, 2017 04:09PM)
How can people buy that crap? Aren't Magicians fed up of all those old stories, like Erdnase or Walter Scott?

By the way, did I tell you that I learned card Magic through live sessions with Hofzinser and Blackstone? I cheated in a game where I took £25,000,000 from Winston Churchill and all casinos in Las Vegas call me the Phantom.

Some Magicians are really gullible. I'd like to see what that Joe Crist is capable of, really!
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 3, 2017 04:18PM)
[quote]On Sep 3, 2017, AMcD wrote:

...By the way, did I tell you that I learned card Magic through live sessions with Hofzinser and Blackstone? I cheated in a game where I took £25,000,000 from Winston Churchill and all casinos in Las Vegas call me the Phantom...[/quote]

Wow, I didn't know that. Seems like you are holding back on us Arnold.

Even Dan Madison can't make a claim like that. :hmm:
Message: Posted by: popcalinda (Sep 3, 2017 07:42PM)
Joe Cris should be about 77 now?
Message: Posted by: danny (Sep 6, 2017 04:17AM)
So he's writing a book and being interviewed by Jon racherbaumer. Sounds intrresting
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Sep 6, 2017 07:44AM)
All the people I know who could see him reported he has nothing exceptional. At all.

But, again, when, like many Magicians, you still live mentally in 1902, I understand that a second deal might look impressive. Me, I live in 2017. I'm gonna need a lot more than a few gossips and a long name dropping to be impressed.

Did I tell you that I learned how to read Poker tells with Joseph Buatier De Kolta, perfected my shifts with Alexander Herrmann and that Steve Forte decided not to appear live anymore after watching one of my videos? Even Jason England decided to stop manipulate cards because of me. He now breeds dogs in a shack, in the desert. Jonnhy Carson offered $1,000,000 to interview me but I already refused $1,500,000 from Larry King. I'm so good they wanted to name a street after me in Las Vegas, place where I have never been. For my next book preface I'll display a few kind words Mark Twain said about me. And maybe, maybe, I'll report the legendary meeting between me and Dai Vernon in 1956. After it, he implored me not to go to the Magic Castle ever.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 6, 2017 08:10AM)
Saloon poker is a throwback to the Wild West, never mind 1902 and the stakes are about the same. All they need to do in these pub comps now is dress up as cowboys and they will be back in Dodge City in the blink of an eye.
Message: Posted by: Card_Flips (Sep 6, 2017 10:27AM)
He claims the book will be very expensive and the only book he'll ever write

I don't know who he is, but his posts are fun to read (whether all real or not, who knows)

However, for someone who likes to put down a lot of people for thinking too highly of themselves, he sure thinks highly of himself...

So, um....who is he?
Magician or gambler?
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Sep 6, 2017 11:02AM)
Well, frankly, a book talking about Cardini, Scott, Vernon or Erdnase... Whaoooh! Brand new, never seen before, top of the top!

I hope he'll talk about Erdnase's run-ups or his fancy cuts. I just can't wait.

Did I tell you that I learned how to read Poker tells with Joseph Buatier De Kolta, perfected my shifts with Alexander Herrmann and that Steve Forte decided not to appear live anymore after watching one of my videos? Even Jason England decided to stop manipulate cards because of me. He now breeds dogs in a shack, in the desert. Jonnhy Carson offered $1,000,000 to interview me but I already refused $1,500,000 from Larry King. I'm so good they wanted to name a street after me in Las Vegas, place where I have never been. For my next book preface I'll display a few kind words Mark Twain said about me. And maybe, maybe, I'll report the legendary meeting between me and Dai Vernon in 1956. After it, he implored me not to go to the Magic Castle ever.

Here's more for you, dear fans. In 1973 they had to change card regulations in Gardena, because I was bringing all cardrooms profits straight down. Edward Thorp stole all his theories on Blackjack from me. The movie "Rounders" (1998) is in fact about me and Walter Scott refused to leave our mother earth without talking to me. My main problem is that I am too humble, that's why I reached the living legend status only, I could have been more famous.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 6, 2017 11:52AM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2017, AMcD wrote:

My main problem is that I am too humble, that's why I reached the living legend status only, I could have been more famous. [/quote]

I agree...you are being too humble as I have seen your complete resume and you omitted quite a few impressive accomplishments out of modesty, probably because you don't want a lot of scantily clad women hanging around trying to get to know you.

However, you are wrong about Jason England. He no longer has a shack in the desert. He now has a beautiful kennel facility on the Las Vegas strip, between the Bellagio and Monte Carlo casinos, just opposite the Paris Hotel/Casino. In fact, you can get a great view of his kennels from the Eiffel tower located across the street in the Paris.

By the way Arnold, I am a little concerned. Are you still taking your meds? :huh:
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Sep 6, 2017 11:55AM)
Just trying to mimic Joe Crist's style. Its tough. Take a look at his instagram page...
Message: Posted by: Card_Flips (Sep 6, 2017 01:00PM)
@AMcD
At the end of the post, you forgot "to be continued...." hahahaha!

I would have taken a street named after me in Vegas though
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 6, 2017 01:06PM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2017, Card_Flips wrote:

I would have taken a street named after me in Vegas though [/quote]

It is currently being worked on...Arnold McDonald Way and AMcD Boulevard have been submitted to the planning commission. He might end up with two streets instead of one.
Message: Posted by: Card_Flips (Sep 6, 2017 01:07PM)
The way it should be
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 6, 2017 01:56PM)
Https://www.youtube.com/embed/i0WPC-N3UYE
Message: Posted by: danny (Sep 7, 2017 04:58AM)
Article on magicana says that bill kalush studied under joe crist among others. Also on instagram bill malone seems to know him personally. Can't see these two heavy hitters associating with a fraud.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 7, 2017 06:51AM)
All magicians are fakes but Santa is real.
Message: Posted by: disgruntledpuffin (Oct 1, 2017 05:20AM)
I was referencing some Jack McMillen information the other day,and came across th name Joe Crist - Charlie Miller speaks about him in the August 1966 Magicana. He was quite impressed with Crists ability,so it seems.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 1, 2017 07:48AM)
My grandpa was impressed by a Magician in 1924. I assure you, he told me.
Message: Posted by: popcalinda (Oct 6, 2017 01:44PM)
That Joe, he only wants money.
$500 for a photo with him...or for a single lesson...
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 6, 2017 02:10PM)
Well, as long as idiots pay for it...

The guy shows nothing and people make him a legend lol. Looks like it's an habit with Magicians though. Scott, Erdnase,...
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 6, 2017 08:00PM)
I'm not sure you'd be correct including Erdnase in with Joe Crist and Walter Scott!

Erdnase didn't make a cent off his book, and nowhere does he indicate he gave anybody lessons, or taught anything for a cash payment.

Taken with only the facts to go by, any money he made would have been made by hustling other players at the table, in other words - "honestly" :)
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 6, 2017 08:41PM)
You make some valid point. I officially remove the name of Erdnase from my list.

I'll stick with the 2 others though. In fact, I should put a lot of retired or reformed gamblers into that list. Maybe I should include myself.

Here's my new motto: Arnold McDonald (MacDonald for the USA), the Real Invisible Phantom. Reformed luck fitter at the card table. Email, $1,250. Facebook message, $2,500. Skype message, $7,500. Skype session (7min) $12,500. Live session (15min) $50,000 (+$12,000 extra for a picture with me). TV show $150,000. Movie, $750,000. I can offer a 10% discount if Scarlett Johansson plays my partner for the love scenes. Lesson, $10,000 per 10min. Autograph, $100 only, I'm not a monster.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 7, 2017 10:20AM)
@AMcD:

I know a Hollywood producer who is interested in a challenge card sharp video for national release.

How much would you charge for a three-way card table challenge with you, DOC and Dan Madison to see who is truly the "best."

My bet is that Madison and DOC would compete very closely on the nonsensical verbal blabber, but you would take the skill award. Of course, I am just guessing on this as I have not heard your hip, jive, in the know banter but if the above post is an indication, you might take both awards. ;)

PS - You might want to hold off on taking your non-prescription "meds" before posting. :hmm:
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 7, 2017 10:50AM)
Cag,

You are very fortunate that I still post for free on that forum :).

About the skill award, well, Doc has a very nice punched deal. When he doesn't flashes, his cold decks are very good too.

Madison has an accordion-like second deal technique which is hard to beat. It's a very clever technique when you think about it. Each time he deals a card he knocks out the guy on his right with his right hand (the one on his left is in a very risky place as well, he might be punched by Madison's left hand). That way, he secures the bad angles of his second deal. Very clever.

That said, they would beat me. They're pros, I'm an amateur.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 7, 2017 12:19PM)
[quote]On Oct 6, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

...Erdnase didn't make a cent off his book, and nowhere does he indicate he gave anybody lessons, or taught anything for a cash payment.

Taken with only the facts to go by, any money he made would have been made by hustling other players at the table, in other words - "honestly" :) [/quote]

Bones, you must be privy to "facts" unknown to the rest of us. :confused:
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 9, 2017 01:23AM)
Mr. Bones -

"The highest tribute that can be paid to the method is the fact that certain players whom we have instructed, can execute the stock with the greatest facility and yet confess they cannot tell why the particular action produces the result."

[i]The Expert at the Card Table[/i] p. 73



Sounds like giving lessons to me.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 9, 2017 11:20AM)
Jason, as noted in my post, nowhere does Erdnase say he [b]taught folks for money[/b], which was my response to Arnold's comment above - [i]"Well, as long as idiots pay for it..."[/i]

Cag, I've got the same facts everybody else has got, including:

Page 7, point #5 of the (limited edition) Gardner-Smith Correspondence where Gardner recalls his conversation with M.D. Smith - [i]"Andrews [b](Erdnase)[/b] told Smith he was a former card shark who had decided to go straight ...."[/i]

There are more.
Maybe you'd be more comfortable with the term [i]"existing evidence"[/i] rather than the term "facts"? To accept what Erdnase said at face value would indeed make it a "fact", but perhaps he was lying?
But then again, considering he had no need to impress Smith with anything, why would he bother to lie to Smith about anything at all?

Tough crowd!
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 9, 2017 11:53AM)
Mr. Bones,

Fine. Your full sentence does include that part about "teaching for money" but the first part of the sentence includes a clause about "not giving lessons" (with or without payment). It seems clear from the text that he did do just that. Was he paid to do so? Who knows?

We also aren't sure if he ever made any money on the book or not. It appears he didn't get rich off of sales of the first edition - they were remaindered at half price rather quickly. But since we don't know who he is, we don't know if he received any money from future editions that were in print just a few years later (1905).

Jason
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 9, 2017 12:23PM)
@ Bones: All I asked is if you were privy to "facts" unknown to the rest of us, or unknown to me to be more specific. It was not meant as a challenge because:

To me Erdnase is little more than a "magician" based oddity who was the first to make a significant contribution to sleight of hand manipulation of playing cards 115 plus years ago. As far as I am concerned, that is it! Of course, there are people in the magic/hobbyist/student community who have read and are aware of the more extensive "research" on the subject of Erdnase regarding his identity and other assumed "facts" about him, and I was just inquiring as to what you based your observations on. That's all.

In my opinion, it is almost impossible to make any definitive and factually supportable judgments about Erdnase's personal life, his identity, his real reason for writing the book (other than his possibly tongue in cheek statement that he needed the money), and if he was a magician, demonstrator or card cheat since we lack any specific written records of that era that pertain to him and his book. Everything about him in that regard appears to be anecdotal, assumptive and a [i]romantic[/i] desire to make or extrapolate conclusions, cite "information" or "evidence" to a situation where no facts or supportable evidence in that regard exists.

My inquiry was legitimate. I know you are a student of gambling chicanery and I was curious as to why you came to the conclusions you stated.

Incidentally, that doesn't make us a tough crowd. It just makes us "curious." :cool:
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 9, 2017 11:05PM)
Re-reading my post Jason, I was indeed messy with my comma :)
Based on the grammar in the first part of the sentence, you're absolutely correct there is a assumption to be made that I referenced teaching, with or without payment.

Cag, one of the key facts in the entire Erdnase narrative is that Mr. Erdnase sat in a Chicago hotel room, looked M.D. Smith right in the eyes, and told him that he was a [i]"former card shark who had decided to go straight"[/i].
M.D. Smith then, years later, looked Martin Gardner in the eyes and told him that Mr. Erdnase (at the time referred to as Andrews at Gardner's prodding) told him exactly that - that Erdnase said point blank that he was a card shark.

Using the KISS principle (always a good idea when evidence is lacking), it would legitimately follow that, as a self-described "card shark", Erdnase would have cheated other players for money at the card table (as per my earlier post).

I know it's another popular theory to hold that Erdnase was a magician, but at no point does he say to anybody [i]"I'm a retired magician"[/i] or [i]"I love card tricks and magic"[/i] - but he does say [i]"I'm a former card shark"[/i].

Those are my basic "facts" Cag, all based on what we know for sure, and with very little subjective editorializing.
For folks who say they just have a "feeling" that Erdnase was a magician, I question the process that got them there, and would ask them to offer anything at all that provides evidence that Erdnase was a magician.

For clarity, and to anticipate a yet untyped response to this post, I personally think Erdnase scooped the magic trick second half of the book from other magic books of the day, this only in an effort to make his book appear as a legitimate bit of publishing, rather than a book on cheating at cards - something which, depending on his geographic location at any given point in time, could get him thrown in jail.

(BTW, kidding about the "tough crowd", I've always enjoyed the very-informed banter here).
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 10, 2017 07:45AM)
@Silver

A former card shark? Really?

Being myself a former amateur card "player" I'm in a very good position for judging him, because, and the constant teasing here proves it, one can expect my environment was lax, permissive. Yet, even if I rarely ran across 4K cameras, herds of German shepherds and big bodyguards, all the places were I played had some regulations, procedures. Not casinos strict security rules, sure, but certainly above what one can read in Erdnase's pamplhet.

Because I'd really like to know where Erdnase could play using his uber-ridiculous cuts and laughable stocking systems. Not to mention his disparagement for the riffle shuffle. Besides, he hardly use the word Faro in his book. It's like someone would write a book about the card table in 2017 without mentioning Texas Hold'Em.

So, a former card shark. Ahem.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 10, 2017 09:08AM)
I have long thought that you indeed make a strong argument against Erdnase being a gambler Arnold, and based on the question you ask above, which is [i]"where on earth can Erdnase get away with the moves he describes in his book"[/i]?
My answer is, I don't know.

This is where we have to diverge from things we [b]do[/b] know about Erdnase, and begin to posit things we don't know about Erdnase.
If I was guessing, I would say he would play on a train, with amateurs, and nobody really in charge. His known train-table, and the history of gambling on trains being a lead to this kind of thinking.

As for the lack of reference to Faro, I think Erdnase was intentionally focused on card games without a house dealer, which could tend to exclude Faro. Erdnase focused on games where the players could, in the course of play, get their hands on the deck - for obvious reasons.

But as we have over the years Arnold, we will likely have to agree to disagree on this one :)
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 10, 2017 09:43AM)
Hmm, you make an interesting point about the Faro. I'll take it into consideration for the future, thanks.

I agree to disagree with you, but I simply mean that, in all likelihood, Erdnase was probably nothing more than an amateur player, like Scott... or me. Certainly not a pro.

And when I say amateur, I really mean it. Any serious game in 1890-1900 without using the riffle shuffle? Really? I strongly doubt it. Whatever the place, whatever the period, whatever the stakes, the overhand shuffle is always avoided in serious games. Even when I was very young I was given just a few games before being forced to use the riffle shuffle. Even in our games, here, beginners are forced to use it. Sometimes, we allowed them to overhand shuffle for their first night, but there was always someone complaining and shuffling for them. I can't imagine any "serious" game using the overhand shuffle. Everyone knows how easy it is to cheat using the overhand shuffle. Even during pharaohs' time they knew it (calm down, just kidding here). But yes, sure, there is certainly a place, somewhere, where some idiots are playing thousands of $ using the overhand shuffle and not cutting the deck. I know, I know. But it's called an exception, hard to make a career out of it.

Well, of course, I'm talking about the Western world. If I was playing in Asia, I should get lost with the riffle shuffle :).
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 10, 2017 10:56AM)
[quote]On Oct 9, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

Cag, one of the key facts in the entire Erdnase narrative is that Mr. Erdnase sat in a Chicago hotel room, looked M.D. Smith right in the eyes, and told him that he was a [i]"former card shark who had decided to go straight"[/i]. [/quote]

Thanks Bones. I know you were not there and are just recounting what you have read, but this raises a number of questions.

How does one know this was a card shark? If he were, how does one know he was Erdnase? Because he [i]may[/i] have said so under apparent repeated questioning?

How old was this purported Erdnase and in what year did this meeting take place? Does his age and the year of the meeting correspond? Was he able to describe specific portions of the book when asked and was he able to perform the sleights in the book in a professional manner or did they not query him to this degree?

[quote]M.D. Smith then, years later, looked Martin Gardner in the eyes and told him that Mr. Erdnase (at the time referred to as Andrews at Gardner's prodding) told him exactly that - that Erdnase said point blank that he was a card shark. [/quote]

He had to be "prodded" to say he was a "card shark," although [i]not necessarily[/i] Erdnase? How about if they prodded him to say he was Jesus, or Napoleon, or Cagliostro and what benefit accrued to this individual to make such purported admission? (Monetary, accolades, respect, notoriety, etc.?)

[quote] Using the KISS principle (always a good idea when evidence is lacking), it would legitimately follow that, as a self-described "card shark", Erdnase would have cheated other players for money at the card table (as per my earlier post). [/quote]

Bones, I know you are an intelligent man and I don't mean to be disrespectful but you might want to reread your last sentence. Conclusions like this can be 100% logical but if the premise is false or flawed, the resulting conclusions would be totally invalid.

What you say may be 100% true and this gentleman in question may have been Erdnase. Then again, he may have not been Erdnase. He may just have been a card shark or a plumber for that matter. I have not read the exposition of the meeting but quite frankly it is not compelling from this limited exposure. Most importantly, would a self-described card shark [i]possibly[/i] lie?

I don't mean to be impolite, but there seems to be a propensity for [i]some[/i] magicians, academics and the like to blindly believe the utterances of supposed self-described "cheaters" or card sharks because they "say so' and without serious and [i]qualified[/i] questioning. Anyone could be sitting across the table and have claimed to be a card sharp, and if forced or prodded enough even to say he was "Erdnase." The recounting does not provide evidence but simply anecdotal revelations. What "proof" was given aside from such verbal utterances and many assumptions?

I understand that anyone who claims to be a card sharp or "Erdnase" in this instance would have great credibility to some because of the biased and very strong will to believe. ("Wow...this guy is a real card shark and I met and talked with him and breath the same air as he.") The will to believe often suspends rational objective reasoning. Claim to be a cheat and [i]some[/i] magicians figuratively become so excited they will believe anything they are told.

No disrespect meant but nothing was presented to justify the conclusions given herein.

Bones, I know you were not present at the meetings and are just recounting what you have read, are discussing same within the limitations of the space given herein and to make an interesting post. However, I respectfully submit what has been recounted so far does not stand up to even [i]slight[/i] scrutiny.

Then again, I have not read the original writings you are referring to so because of incomplete information I could be completely wrong. (Although objectively speaking, it is hard to believe that Cagliostro could be even [i]slightly[/i] wrong.) :rolleyes:

Ugh...you are right...tough crowd! :hmm:
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 10, 2017 12:43PM)
Cag, no disrespect taken my friend.

Much of what I wrote has been long confirmed, with little or no room for doubt.

Indeed, it was S.W. Erdnase that met M.D. Smith in that hotel room, there is no doubt beyond the fact that anything you didn't see with your own eyes could easily be doubted in history as a lie.
Most folks choose not to approach history like that though.

Erdnase engaged Smith to do the drawings of his hands, for his book. Smith eventually recognized some of his original drawings when Gardner showed him a copy of EATCT - which he hadn't ever seen a copy of before Gardner showed it to him.

Gardner initially prodded M.D. Smith to remember S.W. Erdnase as being Andrews, because that's what Gardner wanted Smith to remember ... but Smith later said repeatedly that he couldn't accept that Erdnase was Andrews, because of the vast difference in their appearances - but Smith had no doubt he met, did drawings for, and accepted a cheque from S.W. Erdnase.

There are a lot of reputable folks who have worked for a long time to establish what we do know about Erdnase, most of which formed the contents of my previous posts. If you choose to doubt the somewhat academic work done to date on Erdnase, most of which is quite solidly confirmed, that doubt is something I can't do much about from my keyboard, and typing passages from my library.

But I will note that, if you haven't read all the documentation on Erdnase that's available (and it's a ton), then you're probably not rendering your doubt with the requisite amount of information that would be required to be comfortable that your doubt is justified.

Indeed, as one who has read pretty much all of the available research on Erdnase, some of your questions simply aren't questions any more, and were answered years, if not decades ago.

I get that some folks just don't like Erdnase, and look for any opportunity to share that dislike. But if any given commenter is unaware of the breadth of the existing research, and the broad acceptance of some of that research, then the doubter would be working at quite a major disadvantage.

And if folks just want to doubt everything known about Erdnase simply because they want to doubt Erdnase, without any solid reason for doing so beyond stating that they weren't there, and therefore couldn't accept anything anybody said as factual, that's beyond me to come up with a snappy answer in response :)

Anyway, back to Joe Crist.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 10, 2017 02:07PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

...There are a lot of reputable folks who have worked for a long time to establish what we do know about Erdnase, most of which formed the contents of my previous posts. If you choose to doubt the somewhat academic work done to date on Erdnase, most of which is quite solidly confirmed, that doubt is something I can't do much about from my keyboard, and typing passages from my library.

But I will note that, if you haven't read all the documentation on Erdnase that's available (and it's a ton), then you're probably not rendering your doubt with the requisite amount of information that would be required to be comfortable that your doubt is justified...

...I get that some folks just don't like Erdnase, and look for any opportunity to share that dislike...[/quote]

No problem with any of what you say in that regard, Bones. As I said, I have not read anything about the research on Erdnase as I had no real interest in doing so. My response was based upon very limited data regarding the research so I think you have clarified that somewhat for me.

Also, I don't have any reason to dislike Erdnase or have any preconceived notions about him.

I should also add that ignorance and lack of knowledge have never proven to be a hindrance for me. :P

[quote] Anyway, back to Joe Crist. [/quote]

Ah... There you go, changing the subject again.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 12, 2017 10:46AM)
@AMcD: I know you are a very skillful fellow and have mastered just about every difficult card table move imaginable and perform each to perfection.

Doing a Google search and getting detailed information from various International Intelligence Agencies it seems you live a very clean lifestyle, eat only the best organic foods, workout regularly to say in shape and practice 6-8 hours of day with playing cards...sometimes longer. You also like to have a number of scantily clad woman around 24/7 to keep you company.

Evidently you have been following this highly disciplined regimen for the past twenty years or so.

My question is simple. If you continue this enviable lifestyle and strict regimen, how much longer would it take for you to become as good as Erdnase was? :bigdance:
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 12, 2017 01:56PM)
@Cag

Unfortunately, I'm not as skilled as you imagine. I can do a few false shuffles, some decent false deals and I'm not unhappy with my stacking abilities. But I'm afraid that it sums up everything I can do.

I have never practised 6-8 hours a day lol, even when I was younger. I don't believe in heavy practising, I believe in clever training. I think I currently practice 1h or even 1h20min per day. No more.
Message: Posted by: lagoss (Nov 12, 2017 11:42AM)
So it seems that Joe Crist is releasing a version of Erdnase with a Foreword written by himself and 100 or so photos of him demonstrating the moves... no change to the text. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/110191763/the-expert-at-the-card-table-with-photographs-from - $20,000 already pledged (of $5,000).
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Nov 12, 2017 12:23PM)
From the kickstarter bio:

Whispered about among the best card handlers since he was a child. Absolutely NO ONE, past or present, possesses his playing card pedigree.

Jack Chanin to Charlie Miller- "I knew JOE CRIST since he was nine years old, kept chasing him away but he kept coming back- had a lot of guts for a little kid- has the best second deal anyone ever saw- he was also taught card sleights by old-time gamblers."
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 12, 2017 01:39PM)
Okay, gentlemen, let's see you top this? From the forward of the book:

[quote]Since he was a child, Mr. Crist has been whispered about amongst the best card handlers, and acknowledged by them as the greatest natural card handler of all time. He is not famous but he is extremely legendary. Very few people have had the opportunity to see him work with the cards. Of those who have, every one has said he is the best they've ever seen. This is the only book he will ever do. Should we reach our campaign goal of $5,000, we will make 300 copies, signed by Joe Crist and Rosa Polin. Once sold, thatís it. [/quote]

So, Crist was a legend even when he was a child and the best card handlers, every single one of them, only [i]whispered[/i] about him in hushed tones. Shades of Walter Scott, Phantom of the Card Table fame. Whispering about someone makes it all more believable and oh so "hush-hush," and "in-the-know."

Don't know anything about Joe Crist, but he probably is very skillful with a deck of cards...so? Ah, I see. It is the mystery and intrigue of it all. The ad copy has to justify the high price. Okay, I get it.

Surprisingly they did not have a foreword by Dan Madison and Crist had to write his own??

All joking aside, for students and hobbyists of Erdnase and card table manipulation it probably is a very good book and perhaps someday will be highly prized especially if further insights into Erdnase and his moves are given within its pages.

Remember, only 300 copies will be produced...ever...although I don't really see why photos of Crist's hands doing the Erdnase moves would be better than the drawings which I thought were quite excellent. But for the Erdnase aficionados who must have everything "Erdnase," it probably is worthwhile and perhaps quite good.

Hmmm...I wonder what Erdnase would think of all this?
Message: Posted by: popcalinda (Nov 12, 2017 02:56PM)
"My first Highline teacher Joe Atanis (I was age 12) had a teacher who was a Kaldarash Gypsy who was a close friend of S.W.Erdanse whose real name was E.S.Andrews. In my Introduction I tell a card story about Andrews that will knock your socks off."
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 12, 2017 04:05PM)
The Kaldarash, they are not so bad but the Kuneshti, they would even cheat a gypsy.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 12, 2017 04:49PM)
This post is not meant to detract or criticize Erdnase or any of his legion of admirers. Certainly, EATCT was an extraordinary exposition of card table chicanery by manipulation, and also of card magic in 1902, with many of the moves apparently designed and developed by Erdnase. I don't mean to detract from the book in that regard. Personally, I think that [i]Sharps and Flats[/i] more correctly captures the actual practical ploys used by professional card cheats during that era. However, that is not the point I am trying to make here.

Yes, in 1902 the book made a significant contribution to sleight of hand card manipulation but aside from that, it seems that Erdnase and the book have almost achieved what might best be described as a cult following, i.e., "an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers."

While recognizing the contribution he made to the manipulation or playing cards in 1902 as described above, do you think we have gone too far overboard on our admiration of Erdnase and his book, especially if he really were a card cheat to one degree or another.

[quote]Cult |Define Cult at Dictionary.com
www.dictionary.com/browse/cult

...a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. ... an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers:... a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person ...[/quote]

So where am I going wrong on this?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 12, 2017 04:57PM)
[quote]On Nov 12, 2017, lagoss wrote:

So it seems that Joe Crist is releasing a version of Erdnase...$20,000 already pledged (of $5,000). [/quote]

What? $20,000 pledged but only $5,000 needed? Where does the difference of $15,000 go...The Cagliostro Foundation for Advanced Card Table Philosophical Thought?
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 12, 2017 05:34PM)
One sucker is born every minute. Frankly, paying $200 a book (severely over-uber-mega-outdated) with photos instead of drawings (what David Ben already did a couple of years ago by the way) and a different preface... It goes over my head, as we say.

But if that Joe Crist can make money out of them... good for him after all!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 12, 2017 07:08PM)
I am sure it would be worth it if he had met Mickey Mouse MacDougal.
Message: Posted by: lagoss (Nov 13, 2017 11:11AM)
[quote]On Nov 12, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Nov 12, 2017, lagoss wrote:

So it seems that Joe Crist is releasing a version of Erdnase...$20,000 already pledged (of $5,000). [/quote]

What? $20,000 pledged but only $5,000 needed? Where does the difference of $15,000 go...The Cagliostro Foundation for Advanced Card Table Philosophical Thought? [/quote]

Lol.. Thatís a very good question!
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 14, 2017 05:35PM)
One thing I don't understand, is that there is no video of that Joe Crist. We live in 2017 and it's very very easy to shoot a short clip. Even cell phones offer now 1080p possibilities, if not more!

I understand anglo-saxon mentality in terms of business and marketing (I live in UK). When they sell something, it's always the best thing in the world, the top thing on earth and the second to none thing on the universe. Okay, okay. But at least, so far in Magic, such verbiage is always coming from topnotch guys, like the excellent Richard Turner for instance. Everyone has seen them on videos, DVD, youtube, forums, etc. Therefore, even if find that way of advertising puerile, I'm "okay" with it because the skills of the guys. Well, for most of them...

But here we have someone who has shown nothing. A few great names of Magic have apparently said good things about him but, to me, it is worth nothing. Because what I say in the paragraph above, I'm so used to read laudatory comments about every material about to be released that, at some point, it's just irrelevant. The only way to be sure is to see, what we called, as gamblers, showdown time.

How can someone buy a book which will have 0 added value? Drawings replaced by photos, yeahhhhh what a novelty. David Ben did it a couple of years ago. A new preface with some unverifiable theory about Erdnase? That's really what people paid $200 for? I don't understand, people are about to pay $200 for a book where drawings will be replaced by photos with the hands of someone who is said to be the best but from whom we can't see nothing? Are people that stupid or it is just me?

I'm telling you, I think this Joe Crist is gonna be my hero. If you read this page Joe, I publicly congratulate you. One disappointment though, you should have charged those sheep $500.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 14, 2017 09:46PM)
[quote]On Nov 14, 2017, AMcD wrote:

How can someone buy a book which will have 0 added value? Drawings replaced by photos, yeahhhhh what a novelty. David Ben did it a couple of years ago. A new preface with some unverifiable theory about Erdnase? That's really what people paid $200 for? I don't understand, people are about to pay $200 for a book where drawings will be replaced by photos with the hands of someone who is said to be the best but from whom we can't see nothing? Are people that stupid or it is just me? [/quote]

You just don't get it AMcD. It's cult thinking in large part. Many things that pertain to the Erdnase mystique, (but not all things of course), produce a complete suspension of rational thought. It's pure emotion...because it's Erdnase, and if it says Erdnase, well...just got to have it.

Makes sense to me. I'm sending in my donation.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 14, 2017 10:00PM)
Cult thinking or showing off?

How many of those Erdnase aficionados have NEVER read his book? But for a couple of weeks, if JC sells everything, those buyers will have their moment. Just think about it, they would have the book everyone is talking about!

I would have "understood" the price if a DVD was added, showing the moves.

My next book will be $500 by the way. 8 pages, with 15 photos. But I'm gonna reveal, for the first time, 100% exclusivity, the shoe size of Erdnase.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 15, 2017 04:20AM)
Those who know, know those who know, use an alias sometimes: for all we know, there might be 101 videos of Joe Christ by some other name.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 15, 2017 07:56AM)
Yes, it's a possibility. But not using them for advertising when you call yourself a legend, I just don't get it.

Again, he's gonna show photos. He doesn't have to be skilled for that.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 15, 2017 08:02AM)
[quote]On Nov 14, 2017, AMcD wrote:

My next book will be $500 by the way. 8 pages, with 15 photos. But I'm gonna reveal, for the first time, 100% exclusivity, the shoe size of Erdnase. [/quote]

AMcD, you are incredible. You are not just on the cutting edge, but beyond...

How you were able to determine Erdnase's shoe size is mind-boggling. I am putting in an advance order for your book just to find out that information. If you have any knowledge of the type or design of the shoes he wore, perhaps we can joint venture manufacturing replica Erdnase shoes, in various sizes of course, for those that must have "everything Erdnase."

Imagine the lofty reputation an Erdnase enthusiast could attain just by wearing the new Erdnase shoe and doing a demo of the Erdnase 4-way cut, a move which all hustlers aspire to attain.

What next? Erdnase T-shirts, hats, socks... Hey, there is money to be made regardless of what we sell. Just put Erdnase's name somewhere in the ad copy and on the product and watch the dollars come pouring in.

We could probably even sell Erdnase Cleaning Supplies or Rest Room fixtures.

The possibilities are endless. :applause:
Message: Posted by: lagoss (Nov 16, 2017 09:54PM)
I completely agree with you Arnold. Even if he can perform every move to near perfection, how are a few photos supposed to help? The text isnít being changed so I really donít understand how you're supposed to get anything out of it. I mean maybe if he gave updated handlings or at least some notes on each move to describe his thoughts and give some instruction, but just photos... I agree that if a DVD was included that would also make a big difference.

The whole thing really ****s me because there are a ton of people, who have clearly been told they are going to get a free copy of the book if they preach Joeís skill and knowledge and encourage you to buy it. Most of them have never even seen Joeís work or even met him, but itís always the same thing: ďJoeís been taught by and preached as one of the best card handlers of our time... the most knowledgeable Erdnase expert bla blaĒ.

BUT thatís not anywhere NEAR the worst of it. He and his supporters actually have the hide to attest to just how generous heís being because heís writing a foreword to his book...!? Itís a $200 (actually $250 after the discount is over) book!? Are you kidding me?! If he sells 300 copies at $200 that $60,000! And he is being generous in a writing a foreword for the book...? You canít be serious!! Not only that but the photos were Ďexpertlyí shot by an unknown Instagram photographer, with almost 1000 followers!!! (Yes sarcasm) Oh and she happens to be Joeís GF!!!

It really annoys me that so many people who are famous in the community are preaching the book. As revered as TEATCT is, most of the work now has better handlings. Even if he is the most amazing card handler, even the best put out crappy material, especially when itís their first attempt. Plus what he is offering is limited to the work in the book. With no tips or changes, just photos of the exact move as itís described. There are already a million DVDs, books etc that demonstrate the work (including EACTCT?) plus most come with actual instruction on the moves and updated handling.

He does everything in his power to entice you too ďonly book Iíll ever write... I give away secrets about something that will instantly improve your card handling...! I tel you never before heard facts about Erdnase!...Ē pfft okay.

Maybe some people are collectors and thatís fine. Itís probably a cool piece to have. But for those who are being suckered in by the Ďleadersí in the community well itís not fair on them. They sell it as though itís a must have with vital information. What? Itís photos of moves that have been around for over a century??? Anyway, I guess heís a smart guy. $60,000 in sales after some photos and a short foreword, not bad at all.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 16, 2017 10:31PM)
Maybe I should write my annotated version...

Hey, after all, I can do most of the moves and I know (far) better and updated ones! Because, between you and me, a 4-way cut or how to stack for Euchre in 2017, er...
Message: Posted by: lagoss (Nov 17, 2017 02:15AM)
[quote]On Nov 16, 2017, AMcD wrote:
Maybe I should write my annotated version...

Hey, after all, I can do most of the moves and I know (far) better and updated ones! Because, between you and me, a 4-way cut or how to stack for Euchre in 2017, er... [/quote]

Yes.. do it! Now that Iíd spend $250 on!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 17, 2017 07:27AM)
Euchre gave rise to the Joker.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 17, 2017 09:04AM)
Out of curiosity, does anyone on this BB know Joe Crist personally or has anyone who posts here actually seen him work. If so, it would be interesting to read a firsthand assessment of him, not this "spoken about him in hushed terms" nonsense. Surely there has to someone here that can lend input to his "legendary" ability.

Also, does anyone think that Erdnase, in his wildest imaginings could have possibly foreseen that his book, EATCT would be more popular in 2017 than it was when he first published it? Or that annotated versions of his work would be published, that a large group of magicians (not gamblers) would seriously discuss him and his book, 99% of whom have not or will not ever hustle at the card table, or that others, to bolster their reputation, would boot strap themselves off his name and his book for their own financial and personal benefit?

If you think about it, this is pretty incredible in its own way.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 17, 2017 09:13AM)
If you want to meet him Cag, you need to pay for it.

I told you, a genius.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 17, 2017 09:42AM)
We donít know anybody that has mentioned Erdnase more than Cag has at the gambling spot.
Message: Posted by: danny (Nov 21, 2017 09:07AM)
Who are the ton of people urging others to get the book? I have seen two, Ricky smith and William kalush. I'm still on the fence but I kind of trust these two, they know their ēēēē
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 21, 2017 09:52AM)
@danny

They probably know their *** as you say but how are you gonna judge the guy's skills from... photos? How is this project better than any of the 1.256,851 other versions of the EATCT? Why $200 when there is NOTHING else than the original text? What is the added value?

You're ready to pay $200 for learning that Artanis who was his teacher told him that a gypsy told him that Erdnase's real name was Andrews? Geez!
Message: Posted by: danny (Nov 21, 2017 10:30AM)
The allure is the unknown intro I suppose. I think he said he would detail erdnase a shuffle board which he claims very few people know about and some added info on erdnase...it's the unknown that gets people (including me a bit) excited
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 21, 2017 12:21PM)
I really admire your courage.

On his instagram he praises the... slip cut, top of the top technique among card cheats!!! According to the rules we cut cards in actual games for at least 50 years, I'd really like to know how one can do a slip cut! If all his secrets are of the same kind, yeah, I admire your naivety. I really wonder what kind of shuffle he can demonstrate lol.

When will people realize that this book is 115 years old and severely outdated??? It was already outdated in 1902...
Message: Posted by: lagoss (Nov 22, 2017 07:14AM)
[quote]On Nov 21, 2017, AMcD wrote:
@danny

They probably know their *** as you say but how are you gonna judge the guy's skills from... photos? How is this project better than any of the 1.256,851 other versions of the EATCT? Why $200 when there is NOTHING else than the original text? What is the added value?

You're ready to pay $200 for learning that Artanis who was his teacher told him that a gypsy told him that Erdnase's real name was Andrews? Geez! [/quote]

I completely agree. Even if he can do things that are out of this world, how can we possibly benefit from it when the text is EXACTLTY the same as a very outdated book? All we have is photos of him performing those outdated moves. So what!? What more can you possibly learn from it? No matter how good a card handler he is, his knowledge and skill cannot possibly translate from photos of him performing Erdnases exact methods alone.

And in regards to the ďoh so generousĒ foreword he is writing, its just more overly hyped crap. Okay so maybe the info he has on the shuffleboard is useful? Well he talks about it as though itís some super secret magic bullet that serious card handlers ďsimply MUST knowĒ! Itís a shuffleboard what more advice can he offer other than ďtheyíre good to practice with...Ē?

Anyways, it seems to me that people want to justify the purchase by talking up the ďthoughtful and overly generousĒ introduction heís written. I mean come on! $200 for that. Poker Protection was $50! And people have the hide to say that heís being generous? To me itís the exact opposite.

Iíve also seen some card companies advertising the book. Think one of them was the Expert PCC. Thereís been some other magicians too but canít remember off the top of my head.

I strongly feel that this will be one of those books that people get and at first think itís Ďcoolí and will talk it up but really they will be completely underwhelmed, will get nothing from it and it will sit on their bookshelf gathering dust. But people will still talk it up. Because unfortunately that happens a lot in the magic community.
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Nov 22, 2017 09:07AM)
Better buy The Expert at The Card Table annotated by Daniel Madison!
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 22, 2017 09:51AM)
[quote]On Nov 22, 2017, Peterson wrote:
Better buy The Expert at The Card Table annotated by Daniel Madison! [/quote]

I already did.

I have an autographed copy of the book with 4 decks of Daniel Madison playing cards. (I got an extra two decks on my order in return for giving a glowing testimonial about how wonderful and skillful Madison is.)

The complete set (the autographed book plus 4 decks of Daniel Madison playing cards is now being sold by me. The price is only $1,250.00 US. Kindly PM me for ordering and payment instructions.

PS As an extra bonus, we will include the name and address of Madison's tattoo artist, plus a 20% discount certificate for your first tattoo.

Keep in mind, people don't talk in hushed tones about Madison like they do about Joe Crist. Madison is so good they are simply rendered speechless. :whatthe:
Message: Posted by: Chris (Nov 27, 2017 09:05PM)
I am not at all surprised. Joe Crist, by his own admission, is a cardshark, a cheat, who has made his living cheating others. Why would anybody assume that he is going to make an honest living now? I don't doubt for a second that he is a great cardshark. He may even be the best. But I also know that for most the book will not be worth anywhere near $200.
Message: Posted by: popcalinda (Nov 28, 2017 07:15PM)
I think he is just a joke :)
Message: Posted by: disgruntledpuffin (Dec 2, 2017 02:36AM)
Has anyone here heard the terms "high line" in relation to card work or "kings" in relation to bottoms? Literally never heard them before Joe started an insta account. Just curious if they are well known terms.
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Dec 2, 2017 03:30AM)
Https://scontent-frx5-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/17127301_1078171505621585_8061995017247391744_n.jpg
Message: Posted by: jjsanvert (Dec 2, 2017 04:10AM)
I am a bit surprised that nobody here never heard about this Joe Crist, as he is already mentionned by Franck Garcia as the Creator of a great top stock control - and that was in 1973!
Message: Posted by: camron (Dec 2, 2017 07:50AM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2017, jjsanvert wrote:
I am a bit surprised that nobody here never heard about this Joe Crist, as he is already mentionned by Franck Garcia as the Creator of a great top stock control - and that was in 1973! [/quote]


to add, it is in the credits for Super Subtle Card Miracles.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 2, 2017 08:34AM)
If I'm not mistaken, he also set a foot on the moon in 1969.
Message: Posted by: camron (Dec 2, 2017 09:34AM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2017, AMcD wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, he also set a foot on the moon in 1969. [/quote]


I'll check that out for you Arnold lol
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 2, 2017 09:43AM)
Geez! Someone with some sense of humour...

I thought that quality was gone in 2017.

Thanks a lot!
Message: Posted by: camron (Dec 2, 2017 10:27AM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2017, AMcD wrote:
Geez! Someone with some sense of humour...

I thought that quality was gone in 2017.

Thanks a lot! [/quote]

No problem... There's not much that I don't laugh at!
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Dec 2, 2017 10:27AM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2017, Peterson wrote:
Https://scontent-frx5-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/17127301_1078171505621585_8061995017247391744_n.jpg [/quote]

I don't know Joe Crist, never met him and can't comment on his card table work one way or the other. However, with all the glowing and favorable comments given about him, he probably was or is a very skillful guy.

I have some observations on this though:

This typed up endorsement of Joe Crist's ability appears to be part of advertising copy - perhaps something is being "sold" here or this is part of a write-up in a book or article. There is no clarification as to where it appeared or its source. Without knowing who wrote this, where it appeared or its purpose, it is hard to validate its veracity.


Further, these are comments made by magicians, most of whom from a bygone era. Back in the day, very few magicians, including the "greats," knew very much about card table artifice. Because many of these moves were unknown to them, they would naturally be impressed to a certain degree because some or much of the work being presented was new to them. I would say that many magicians nowadays know a great deal more about card table manipulation, and can perform more card table "moves" than the greats of the past. The information just was not available back then.

Crist does not appear to be a hustler but rather a magician, demonstrator and student of these moves. Professional hustlers don't know or hang around many magicians personally, and usually the best keep their ability secret and don't "tip their mitt" to magicians at all. Also, doing fancy moves or even great moves with an abundance of skill has nothing at all to do with getting the money.

Finally, these endorsements appear to be in the days before a guy like Steve Forte came on the scene. One would be hard pressed to find anyone more skillful, as far as doing sleight of hand card table moves are concerned, than he.

No doubt Crist was pretty skillful and perhaps one of the best in his time, at least as far as "moves" go.

However, I think that AMcD's [i]glowing[/i] and a [i]fawning[/i] endorsement of Crist is greatly exaggerated and completely over the top. I don't think Crist [i]ever[/i] stepped on the moon. AMcD is taking his hero worship of Crist too far.

But then again, maybe Crist did step on the moon. :P
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 2, 2017 01:03PM)
I made an horrible mistake, in fact he is mainly known for his work on evangelization

Sure, he is now working under cover, that's why he removed the letter h in his name (same kind of ruse was used by Erdnase in the past). But it's not enough for fooling me, I know who he is.

He's sure is a famous Magician, he can turn water into wine. I hope it's French wine. It surely is, that's why he sells his book $200.
Message: Posted by: popcalinda (Dec 2, 2017 03:38PM)
I think that he is one of the best High Liner magician ever and that his Kings are serial killers!
Message: Posted by: foolsnobody (Dec 5, 2017 02:04AM)
That piece of copy that Peterson shared I found intriguing in that one of the people mentioned as giving props to Joe Crist was Herbert Huncke, famous for having been a part of the original "beat" circle in NYC (Ginsberg, Burroughs, Kerouac etc.) back in the late 1940s through the 1950s. The Joe Crist on Instagram looks too young to be the same Joe the blurbs are about, but I think he is sort of "channeling" an era, as it were, and I enjoy his creative imagination. It makes me think of Andy Kaufman, and also Jim Carrey channeling Andy in the recently released Netflix documentary, who in his own mind really was lounge singer Tony Clifton.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 5, 2017 08:26AM)
Tssss. Don't say something bad about someone praising the slip cut as one of the strongest moves ever for the gaming table. Someone asking you to buy 3 of his coming book in order to teach you... the one handed shift! (Another indispensable move for gamblers).

This man is a genius.
Message: Posted by: dapo24 (Dec 5, 2017 11:02AM)
@AMcD I can't wait for his booklet on the applications of the double lift for the card table ;)
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Dec 5, 2017 11:25AM)
[quote]On Dec 5, 2017, AMcD wrote:

Tssss. Don't say something bad about someone praising the slip cut as one of the strongest moves ever for the gaming table. Someone asking you to buy 3 of his coming book in order to teach you... the one handed shift! (Another indispensable move for gamblers). [/quote]

I tried for years to master the Erdnase one-handed shift but to no avail. In fact, every time I used it in a game, I would get so nervous I would drop the cards all over the table and floor. Because I looked so inept, no one ever thought I could be a "mechanic."

So...don't knock it. The one-handed shift did (and still does) have it uses when employed with the "dropping the deck" technique. :rolleyes:

Happily, since you mentioned Crist is teaching the one-handed shift if I buy three of his books, I sent in my order immediately. Now I am wondering. Since all the games I play in use a cut card, after the deck is cut and I do the shift, won't the cut card end up in the middle of the deck?

Maybe I should just ask my partner, who always sits on my right (ala the Erdnase method), to master the [i]One-Handed[/i] slip cut. That will cure the problem of not allowing the player on the dealer's right to use two hands to cut the cards after the shuffle.

I wonder if only ordering 3 of Crist's book is enough. Maybe 6 or 7 might be better. After all, the more books you have, the more adept and accomplished you become...I think. :goof:
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Dec 5, 2017 12:04PM)
Keep in mind. The above described one-handed shift, in which the cut card goes to the middle of the deck, is not to be confused with AMcD's Greek Bottom. There is no relationship here.

In AMcD's Greek Bottom Deal the cut card is dealt to one's [i]partner[/i]...a very important distinction. This fools anyone who suspects that perhaps AMcD can deal, or was even attempting to deal, a Greek Bottom.

AMcD's Greek Bottom Deal is more akin to my "dropping the deck" technique. The same clever "faux ineptitude" applies to both methods.

(I hope you members appreciate all the "High Line-Real Work" information you are being given here.)

@AMcD: Do you think anyone knows what the hell we're are talking about anymore?
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Dec 5, 2017 12:22PM)
I think one needs to truly posses that famous gift sense in order to grasp the ideas behind the concepts discussed above. You try to cheat and fail, so everyone knows that you are a bad cheater and ONLY AFTER THAT you cheat them for realz.

Rename "The Gambling Spot" to "The Masters of Deception" immediately!
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Dec 5, 2017 02:11PM)
[quote]On Dec 5, 2017, Peterson wrote:
...You try to cheat and fail, so everyone knows that you are a bad cheater and ONLY AFTER THAT you cheat them for realz... [/quote]

Oh...but...isn't that kind of sneaky and somewhat devious?

Which reminds me...

A hustler friend of mine was making a play against the shoe at a major strip resort in Vegas. What they had "down" on the play is not important.

The man in charge of the Blackjack/Roulette games on a 24 hour basis was in the pit at the time. (Let's call him "Big Boss.") Big Boss evidently was a half-ass counter and knew basic strategy. He used that knowledge to distinguish good BJ players from poor players.

My friend (the hustler) was playing third base and his partner was playing on first. Big Boss sees my friend playing significant money and winning so he stood directly behind him to watch his play more closely. (My friend, had been "duked in" as a high limit credit player).

Big Boss watches my friend's play for about 5 minutes. My friend knew Big Boss was watching but continued to take "dead aim' at the game because he knew Big Boss was really a big mouthed, know it all, half-smart chump that got "juiced" into his job.

Because the hustler was not playing basic strategy, at least not the way Big Boss would expect it to be played, Big Boss got tired of watching and walked away. His partner on 1st base overheard Big Boss say to the floorman that was assigned to this area of the pit: [i]"This guy on 3rd is a real chump. He is playing lucky now, but give him time. He will lose all he has won and then some. Let him keep playing and amusing himself. He has no idea of what he is doing." [/i]

So my friend pretty much had carte blanche after that, continued to get all his comps and then some, and was considered to be a very valuable "whale." Over the next couple of years, he and his partner won a ton of money in that joint. They were never caught, or even suspected for that matter, but eventually technical conditions changed and they had to move on.

...And there are a million stories like that.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 5, 2017 02:12PM)
Important note!

If some of you find my posts sarcastic, well... I accept it. After all those years, you should now get used to my style and my (probably) unusual sense of humour may (at times) collide with yours. But all this is just a game and those who deal with me for more than 15 years know that I respect everyone, as long as there is a mutual respect of course.

I have NOTHING against Joe Crist, I don't know him. If some famous Magicians say good things about him, he is probably skilled. I'm probably making more fun about the guys buying a $200 book which will teach them nothing than anything else. I wish him good luck with his project, sincerely.

And when I say that he is a genius, I REALLY mean it! After all he posts on Instagram (which make no sense in terms of Gambling), he still gets more buyers! I say it again, he is a genius. Selling a book teaching the slip cut or a one handed shift and talking about Gambling at the same time, if this is not being a true genius, I don't know what a genius is!

@Cag, you killed me lol.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Dec 6, 2017 01:02AM)
Whatís the bet that the shade for the shift is to block it with your right arm?
Itís strange, the guy has chomps but the more he talks the less impressed I am.
Message: Posted by: danny (Jan 25, 2018 09:52AM)
Well Ben Earl has made his opinion quite clear on Instagram... I never went for the book in the end, it was either that or the Johnny Thompson book. I think I made the right choice and will stick to rereading my battered paperback edition of Erdnase that I have had for years
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 29, 2018 02:07AM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2017, disgruntledpuffin wrote:
Has anyone here heard the terms "high line" in relation to card work or "kings" in relation to bottoms? Literally never heard them before Joe started an insta account. Just curious if they are well known terms. [/quote]


Curiously, the only other person I ever heard use the term "high line" cheat or "high line thief" was Rod the Hop. He said it on more than one occasion. Never heard bottoms called "kings" though.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Magic-Daniel (Jan 29, 2018 06:20PM)
[quote]On Jan 25, 2018, danny wrote:
Well Ben Earl has made his opinion quite clear on Instagram... I never went for the book in the end, it was either that or the Johnny Thompson book. I think I made the right choice and will stick to rereading my battered paperback edition of Erdnase that I have had for years [/quote]

What did Ben Earl say on Instagram?
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Jan 29, 2018 06:29PM)
This is Benís post if the link works:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BeVo2rXnXlL/

Itís interesting. If he didnít have so a number of well known and technically gifted guys vouching for him I would ride him off, but I still havenít seen enough to really want to invest in another copy of Erdnase with picture...let alone buy three copies of the book as I believe some have.
Message: Posted by: lagoss (Jan 29, 2018 11:45PM)
[quote]On Jan 29, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
This is Benís post if the link works:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BeVo2rXnXlL/

Itís interesting. If he didnít have so a number of well known and technically gifted guys vouching for him I would ride him off, but I still havenít seen enough to really want to invest in another copy of Erdnase with picture...let alone buy three copies of the book as I believe some have. [/quote]

Yes I believe if you purchased 3 copies of his book, you received his super secret tips on Erdnase's One Handed Shift! Well worth spending $900 I'm sure.
Message: Posted by: danny (Jun 15, 2018 06:02AM)
Has anyone seen the latest tirade against Vernon? Can anyone corroborate on any/all of these quotes? I mean I heard he fell out with Cardini, but I thought he was quite tight with Charlie Miller and Steve Freeman. Also some of these quotes such as the one from Diaconis seem like they could have been taken out of context a little to be used to fit in with this narrative. I have heard Vernon loved Carlyle.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 15, 2018 10:08AM)
[quote]On Jan 29, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

Curiously, the only other person I ever heard use the term "high line" cheat or "high line thief" was Rod the Hop. He said it on more than one occasion. [/quote]

From my experience usually the term used is "High Line Guy," sometimes used with similar terminology like, "He knows the 'real' ways."

This signifies a hustler, someone that has "been around"...a "capable" guy. Also, another expressions signifying the same thing is, "True Key Guy."
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 15, 2018 01:29PM)
[quote]On Jan 29, 2018, lagoss wrote:

Yes I believe if you purchased 3 copies of his book, you received his super secret tips on Erdnase's One Handed Shift! Well worth spending $900 I'm sure. [/quote]

I thought this information wa so powerful I purchase 6 copies of his book. This way I could learn the Erdnase one-handed shift with BOTH the left and right hand.

Pretty clever on my part...Yes?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 15, 2018 01:32PM)
[quote]On Jan 29, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:

This is Ben's post if the link works:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BeVo2rXnXlL/ [/quote]

I don't see the significance of this link. What am I missing?
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Jun 15, 2018 06:48PM)
Cag,
The link was in reference to Dannyís post on the 26/01/2018 about Ben Earl making his opinion clear. I for one enjoyed the bit of mockery directed at Joeís posts, they do seem a bit over the top. But I know some people enjoy them.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jun 15, 2018 09:51PM)
Earl vs Crist? Are we witnessing a contest of humility and modesty?
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Jun 15, 2018 11:21PM)
Well at least we know how well Earl handles cards :P
Message: Posted by: Geeraff12 (Jan 18, 2019 11:54PM)
Simply as a citation for the record,the bottom palm replacement taught in Roger Pierre's "The Magic of Francis Carlyle'(1975) Lesson Three p.36 is credited in the contents to Joe Christ.

I messaged @oldschoolorp and he kindly took time to reply, confirmed that was indeed him and a typo.

G
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 20, 2019 11:34AM)
Https://culturematters.org.uk/index.php/arts/fiction/item/2722-the-cheaper-the-crook-the-gaudier-the-patter-dashiell-hammett-vs-joe-mccarthy
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 20, 2019 12:14PM)
In crime a high line crook is one above others: ďRobert De Niro stars as Neal McCauley, a high line criminal who knows how to rob. He works with a good crew.Ē

If you are working on the front line then you are a street dealer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLY5h8FbM6k
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Jan 24, 2019 02:42AM)
I was reading Joe Christís blog and ran across something a guy by the name of Doc wrote. Do you think that Joe is right or is Doc right? He wrote...

You call Steve a move junkie and maybe youíre right but from what I and others see itís totally two different things. These readers here really canít speak on certain situations because the majority of them are not gamblers so they wouldnít know how to speak to you or differentiate between what youíre talking about.

You write and say that itís about quality instead of quantity and this is only half true; itís according to how you look at it. Why? Because no one starts off anything or subject by being an expert, it normally take years of practicing, playing and being in different situations to become an expert at what you do. From my position I can literally say that youíre not a professional but that would be totally wrong for me to say because youíre not at my level.

Let me give you an example to clarify what Iím actually saying. You call Walter Scott an expert (technically so do I because I learned my punch deal technique from him - his book actually) but at this stage in my gambling career heís not. Am I correct for making this statement; technically yes because of my expertise but technically no because his moves still can get the money (but at a slower rate).

Iím Doc (a Cold Deck Specialist) and I donít have to go to a poker game and sneak my cards in for their cards, nor do I have to punch them while playing any longer like I used to just to beat them at playing poker like Walter Scott did. Does my now technique negate the fact that Walter Scott was not an expert...no, he just had a different style of winning the money which would eventually rank anyone playing this way because he would always (with this technique) win on his deal and this would bring suspension on the dead like it did on me in my lifetime. To me this is what youíre saying about Steve.

Iím going on record to say that I personally sat at a round table at Steveís home and listened to a conversation between Steve and Rod the Hop talk about how they were at the same gambling spot cheating when the cops raided it. Rod was surprised after Steve mentioned that he frequently played there but in a different room where Rod was a stationary dealer. They said something about Gardenia times and they spoke about a guy by the name of Moon who fumbled his stolen card...I really didnít understand what time period that was but I still have the conversation between them two on video-tape if I have to present it proving that both did gamble at one time for a living.

The Gamblingman007
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 24, 2019 08:12AM)
It is hard to tell when we donít know what the other fellow said but I will bet they are both wrong. :)
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Jan 24, 2019 10:05AM)
Steve is not a card cheat, heís nothing but a move junkie.

The Gamblingman007
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Jan 24, 2019 10:58AM)
I have found that various insecure pundits have long attempted to make a name for themselves by somehow disparaging Forte.
I find that, in their efforts to inflate their own egos, they wind up only making themselves look foolish.

What I find commendable is that Forte himself never responds, he remains above it all, he never wades into these kinds of discussions in an effort to bolster his own standing or ego.

I suspect Forte avoids these kinds of exchanges simply because he knows what he's done, he knows what he's doing, and he knows exactly how many presumed card experts there are occupying the ground above him ... which (as we all know) would be close to zero, if not indeed [b]zero[/b].
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 24, 2019 11:56AM)
"Steve is not a card cheat, heís nothing but a move junkie."

That is so superficial, itís embarrassing.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 24, 2019 01:29PM)
"Steve (Forte) is not a card cheat, he's nothing but a move junkie."

Well, I would say Forte is not a card cheat because he has no desire to be a card cheat...nor would most decent people want to be one. It is not among the highest levels of human aspirations.

He may be a move junkie, but at the most accomplished levels of move "junkyism." ("Junkyism." Is that a real word?)

He evidently is fascinated by clever and well executed card and dice table manipulation in all its permutations (as many of us are) but has taken it to a level that few, if any, can duplicate. He is among the finest sleight of hand card table manipulators I have ever see, if not the finest and has an encyclopedic knowledge of card and dice cheating and casino game protection that doubtfully can be surpassed by anyone.

(Having that knowledge ability has nothing do with wanting to be, or being, a card cheat.)
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Jan 24, 2019 09:49PM)
Move junkie or not if you watch Steve and can learn a move that can make you some money than please do so. To me it doesnít matter if he did do it or not, if he did do it he was one of the best that did it, if he didnít he sure wouldíve been the best at doing it. In either case it really doesnít matter to me, he was my best teacher until this day. Thank you Steve.

The Gamblingman007
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 25, 2019 04:41AM)
Yes, but it is not about moves. There are advantage players and traditional hustling can be most profitable. When a full-time professional lures a part-time amateur to a private game to gamble with him, it is both a con and a form of match-fixing. The part-time player is no match for the full time professional. Private high stakes games are normally built around a wealthy businessman lured by a professional from a casino game.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 25, 2019 12:12PM)
[quote]On Jan 25, 2019, tommy wrote:
Yes, but it is not about moves. There are advantage players and traditional hustling can be most profitable. [/quote]

Yes, it certainly can be...and is!
Message: Posted by: popcalinda (Jan 25, 2019 05:04PM)
That joke Joe, he never played real games, never cheated. He was a student of W Scott, so what? I don't think so. Scott is advertised by magicians. Cheated games for 65 years, yea sure...Most of Joe stories are fake. Soon after Doc posted on Joe's Instagram monodrama, Joe blocked him...That's how good is he...mentally ill person. When we are talking about moves, naturalness, speed and smooth action, Steve and Z are the best out there.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Jan 25, 2019 07:22PM)
[quote]On Jan 25, 2019, popcalinda wrote:
.......Steve and Z are the best out there. [/quote]


:die: ... quite true - and not just with cards! :die:
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Jan 25, 2019 07:59PM)
Mr. Popcalinda and Bones I totally agree with you.

TheGamblingman007
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 25, 2019 09:52PM)
Z, as I recall, was the only one here that ever demonstrated anything that conformed to the usual procedures of the professional game.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 26, 2019 01:11PM)
[quote]...Because no one starts off anything or subject by being an expert, it normally takes years of practicing, playing and being in different situations to become an expert at what you do...

...You call Walter Scott an expert...but at this stage in my gambling career he's not. Am I correct for making this statement; technically yes because of my expertise but technically no because his moves still can get the money (but at a slower rate)... [/quote]

Yes, becoming an expert takes a long time. Actually, there are different categories of experts as well as levels of expertise. In a certain sense, "becoming an expert" is more a journey rather than a destination. And it is not only sleight of hand manipulation that makes one an expert in card and dice chicanery. There is considerably more to it than that. There are top experts who use clever playing ploys, advantage play techniques, subterfuge and gaffs to get the money and rarely if ever use sleight of hand although they usually know all the manipulative moves. As I mentioned before, in the bigger plays where the largest scores are made, select moves are used sparingly or not at all.

As far as levels and types of experts, firstly there are the academic experts. They are a different breed and are not actual hustlers or sharpers. They are usually more magician types and performers, promoting themselves by performing their expose demos and selling their knowledge through lectures, books, webinars, DVDs and the like...sort of a cottage industry endeavor. Some may be quite skillful manipulatively and academically knowledgeable but most in this category have never gone for the money, either because they are too well known, lack the courage or desire to cheat, or don't have the experience needed to successfully do so for meaningful money under varying circumstances/conditions and not get caught.

Then there is the category of actual hustlers and scuffs who have gotten and do get the money. Even in that group, as you said, there are different levels of expertise. Among the professional hustlers I have known, there are those who successfully get the money in casino and professional poker formats and no one is the wiser that anything untoward is occurring. These are the real pros and are often considered to be desirable player-customers to casino management and poker game operators. On the other end of the spectrum are the "more balls that brains" guys whose biggest challenge is to get out the door with the money they've stolen and to do so in one piece. And naturally, there are varying levels of accomplishment or "expertise" between these two extremes.

You mentioned Walter Scott and his punch deal. When I was a teenager, I read Eddie McGuire;s [i]original[/i] "Phantom" manuscript about Scott, hyping Scott as being the best of the best, traveling the world, beating all comers, fooling the top magicians of that era with his great skill and cleverness, using his superior "punch," curved and molded from gold and so on - literally a real, "wonder star" of card table subterfuge. Of course, as a youngster, I was enthralled with this largely BS nonsense and believed all the romantic magician hyperbole attached to this "legend."

When I moved to Vegas and started to meet and know some of the top casino hustlers of that era, it was a completely different world. While I'll admit Scott was no doubt a superb punch and second dealer and may have gone for the money in small private games, what he did was kid stuff and pretty much meaningless compared to the casino game and professional hustling that was going on in Vegas and to a lesser extent, in the California card clubs. None of these guys did a punch deal or wanted to, but let me tell you, they made great scores in the casinos and other money games.

The biggest plays were usually team efforts. In fact, in some of the monster cash generating plays, like the chip cup scam when it was new and unknown, so much cash was generated that the hustlers involved had to use $500 and $1,000 bills (which were in circulation at the time), to cut up the money among the team members. As you mentioned, the problem with playing single-o and moving is you have to win the money yourself. Not the best way to go...highly problematic and a heat score unless you are playing for small stakes in amateur games. But...even then...???
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Jan 26, 2019 10:23PM)
Cag at least you lived those games and that era. We can only wish that we did. I sure hope that you saved your winnings so that you can live off of because I sure didnít.

Nice story and wisdom. Take Care

TheGamblingman007
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 26, 2019 10:26PM)
Poker used to be a cash game. Back then even small amateur games could turn into bigger games. Some amateur games, like Gin, can be worth the light, depending on the company. Such games can start off small and get bigger as the sucker chases his money. Today a lot of the amateur poker games are limited penny ante comps, which are not worth the light.