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Topic: Memorised a stack, now what?
Message: Posted by: MrEmagic (Oct 17, 2017 03:05AM)
Hi there,

After buying Patrick Redford's Temporarily Out Of Order, I got into stacked deck work and I'm at the point where I've completely memorised the Redford stack...but I have ran out of ideas of what I can do with it. Some time ago I was advised to get both Mnemonica and some of Aronson's books, but after seeing the price Mnemonica goes for I'm having second thoughts. Is Mnemonica (or Aronson's work) the best option for me considering I already know a stack by heart and I'm only looking for stack independent effects, or are there other books that are better suited for me?

Kind regards,

Mauro
Message: Posted by: JBSmith1978 (Oct 17, 2017 04:22AM)
My advice is pick up Mnemonica and read Divination. After working on Divination(but really, done correctly you should have a notebook(s) filled with your own thoughts approaches, strategies, scripts and performances) research card divination effects and routines/acts on Denis Behr's site. Buy more notebooks.

I'm not going make a list for The Best of Memorized Stack Work or it's interesting history and contributors but everyone's list would include Aronson.

Don't neglect the stories Canasta, Allerton and Berglas's work have to tell.
Message: Posted by: MarkinMadison (Oct 17, 2017 11:06PM)
I'm not familiar with Divination? More info please? Thanks!
Message: Posted by: alicauchy (Oct 18, 2017 11:24AM)
Repeated divination effect.

Copied from Mnemonica book:

"This is undoubtedly, the first effect people usually do with the stack, and was very likely the first and only effect for which it was created. It has stood the test of time. Its strength lies in repetition
...
A tip.
My advice at this point would be to read no further, to throw this book away and to start practicing, thinking and working out your patter, subtleties and presentation for this miraculous routine"
"
Message: Posted by: MarkinMadison (Oct 18, 2017 11:33AM)
Thanks. Didn't think there was a book named that!
Message: Posted by: bartleby (Oct 21, 2017 05:09PM)
Divination is a chapter in Mnemonica.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Oct 21, 2017 06:00PM)
Start learning how to do impromptu card stuff with any deck
Message: Posted by: RickDangerous (Oct 27, 2017 10:42AM)
Of course you could learn impromptu effects from a shuffled deck and there are tons of things discussed in a different forum. But this forum is about the memdeck. So to stop this thread from getting hijacked any more, I suggest to check out Pit Hartling's book "In order to Amaze" which features many many stack independed tricks you will like and use.
Message: Posted by: MrEmagic (Oct 28, 2017 05:50AM)
According to my sources, Mnemonica will be reprinted in the start of 2018, so I'll hold off for a little longer so I can buy the book at a decent price.

[quote]On Oct 27, 2017, RickDangerous wrote:
Of course you could learn impromptu effects from a shuffled deck and there are tons of things discussed in a different forum. But this forum is about the memdeck. So to stop this thread from getting hijacked any more, I suggest to check out Pit Hartling's book "In order to Amaze" which features many many stack independed tricks you will like and use. [/quote]

Thanks for the suggestion, immediatly added it to my wish list! :-)
Message: Posted by: MrEmagic (Oct 28, 2017 05:52AM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2017, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
lol for me to I think? [/quote]

Sorry but mr. Loraynes words are quite clear, his books are meant exclusively for me ;-)
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Nov 11, 2017 09:47AM)
Because of some of the remarks herein someone sent this to me saying that I should post it. I'm a terrible computer person so not sure if I can, may have to write it out and then copy it here. I believe that it originally appeared here at the Café; not sure. But with the hope that it doesn't give Mr. RiderBack a stomachache - it does fall into one of the categories about me that he listed above (guess I should thank him for its appearance) - here it is:

"Harry Lorayne is a great inspiration to the Magic Community, the most influential and relied upon close-up magic author in my lifetime, the world's most influential and successful memory expert, the man that through his own publications has given more young, enthusiastic magicians more opportunities than any other magic author in the world.

"He is one of our best and brightest, one whose life experiences and successes tower above the rest.

"Kids need to know that if you want to be successful, you need to read and heed the words of those who are truly successful: Harry Lorayne defines success, and has raised the bar in magic literature that actually teaches, not just pontificates.

"Harry Lorayne is a tremendous asset to any magic forum. He built Magic, he has lived Magic, and he has freely shared that knowledge acquired over a lifetime of hard work, with those that show only a MINIMAL AMOUNT of respect, IF ANY. (Hah!)

"While Mr. Lorayne does not always suffer fools gladly, there is scant reason why he should. Harry Lorayne is a living legend, proof positive that great, often fabulous results can be achieved through clever routining, strong presentation, and attention to detail. He has put more and better good magic: practical, performable, memorable magic in front of those who seek it than anyone else on the planet.

"Harry Lorayne has made magic books readable, understandable, and enjoyable. Harry Lorayne has changed the face of close-up magic like no other: and magic is a far greater, richer, better place for is outstanding efforts and achievements.

"Harry Lorayne is a huge asset to any magic venue, a person whose presence should be loudly celebrated."
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Nov 11, 2017 01:45PM)
Here's one idea: Go back through material that doesn't use a stack, and see where a stack might be used to enhance the effect or mystery.

My first card book was, in fact, Mr. Lorayne's "Close Up Card Magic". My first copy is on my "sentimental" shelf, but my current working copy is riddled with notes on almost every effect: "Good for Jumbo Cards"; "Try with Tarot Cards"; "Even better with a stripper deck"; etc. I return to that book, and others like it, every time I am exploring a new idea in card magic, to see how I might apply it without completely re-inventing the wheel.

That said, there's a lot of stuff you can do with a stack that is impractical without one, and there is plenty of opportunity to borrow decks and let spectators shuffle and still do stack work. Many of the tricks in those old books use a stack of 10 or more cards anyway. As long as knowledge is well applied, it can only aid us. Learning a stack and what it's capable of can compliment our card magic; It doesn't have to consume it entirely.

We can always dismiss one method with another, but to what end? Why should anyone work without a stack, if they just perfect a deck switch? Why learn a double lift, if you can do the pass? Why learn more than one force? These questions seem absurd to me. The benefit of having multiple methods to achieve the same effects is self-evident. I can't think of any good reason to *not learn* an aspect of our craft that excites your creativity and imagination.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Nov 11, 2017 02:35PM)
Well said - but one reason not to learn "an aspect of our craft" for me anyway - is to learn stacks --- since I work ONLY with borrowed decks. Yes; there are some stacks that I can do "impromptuly" - which I've taught in a couple of my books - you might check out Blown Further Away, for example. But for full memdecks - would be a waste of time/effort for me.
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Nov 11, 2017 03:36PM)
Perhaps it’s fair to say full stack mem-deck does not “excite your creativity and imagination”. I certainly don’t expect anyone to learn magic that doesn’t tickle their toes. On a side note, how do you manage to exclusively perform for audiences who carry their own decks? Do you ask the clients ahead of time to bring cards with them?
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Nov 11, 2017 04:32PM)
When I was doing table magic - a hundred years ago - and people booked me for personal affairs - part of my contract, aside from the compensation, was that they have two decks there - one red-backed and one blue-backed. And - when I was introduced they had to mention that these were their decks.

Doing magic for pay hasn't been part of my life for about seven decades. So over those decades when friends or anyone who knew "me and mine" and if they wanted to see me do some magic - they had to have a deck handy. Many times people ran out to buy a deck. I simply will not carry my own deck unless I'm showing stuff to other magicians - never/ever for laymen. That way I never hear - haven't for those decades - "Impossible; has to be a trick deck!"

Again over the decades - I'd be doing an appearance - my memory work - and the guy who booked me (who obviously knew my magic background) would ask if I'd do some card magic for some of his special guests - and I'd say "sure - if you have a deck of cards available."
Message: Posted by: RiderBacks (Nov 12, 2017 02:19AM)
As to the OP's question, stack workers should pick up, in addition to Redford, works by Tamariz, Marlo, and Aronson. No question. But a stack is just a tool, and it should not be the only tool you rely upon. You have to be willing to give up your stack and perform effects which do not require a stack. If you have the stack in your toolkit, you will occasionally be able to turn effects which don't require a stack into miracles, but you should not depend upon that. All authors mentioned provide stack-independent effects, which is to say that those effects will work with any stack. But a "stack independent" effect is an effect which requires some stack. And you need to supplement your stack work with effects which do not require any stack.

It is a gross mistake to think that a single method will provide you with all you need. If you favor stack work, you can always take a shuffled deck in use and deck swap it for a stacked deck. But a deck swap will require motivation, and that motivation will usually be an effect which isn't one which relies on a stacked deck. (The best deck swaps are motivated by effects that can be achieved without a stack. But there are other ways of swapping decks...)
Message: Posted by: dclxvinyc (Nov 14, 2017 01:03AM)
OP,

I was interested for a while in stack work. I used Si Stebbins and Eight Kings for way longer than I should have before moving to Mnemonica.
I wanted to move to Mnemonica earlier because I'd seen a magician friend of mine absolutely run a bar one night in New York using the stack and related effects. Juan Tamariz is an enlightened magician and several of his other books really transformed my material.
Like you, I believe, I discovered Mnemonica was out of print and copies were selling on Ebay for around 500-1000 dollars.
I was able to find one, however, fairly priced by google searching for magic shops in non-english speaking countries. I eventually bought the last copy from a Dutch magic site with a simple click. Fish around if you can: it is very much worth it.
Two lifetimes would not be enough to internalize all the information inside of Mnemonica and a lot of it is more technical than I will ever begin.

The companion DVD series from Dan and Dave (I think) is a great supplement, but not a substitution for the book.

A solid foundation of false shuffles and cuts is always in order for stack work. However, I find when doing stack work, the magic seems more mysterious than mechanical so there is less scrutiny on the hands. I use Erdnase overhand false shuffle for retaining full stock, and I do it slowly and maybe only once or twice. The power of Mnemonica over mathematical stacks like Si is that it looks quite shuffled. I can lay all the cards face out, false cut once or twice and begin.
Message: Posted by: MrEmagic (Nov 14, 2017 01:25AM)
Thanks for your reply! I've currently already memorised the Redford Stack which has some great properties to it, but I must admit that I sometimes fear the spectator will notice some kind of pattern in most of the deck. This could very well just be my magician's mind overthinking stuff, and so far it has always gone unnoticed.
Message: Posted by: RiderBacks (Nov 14, 2017 04:17AM)
[quote]On Nov 14, 2017, dclxvinyc wrote:

I use Erdnase overhand false shuffle for retaining full stock, and I do it slowly and maybe only once or twice.[/quote]

Erdnase provides no plausible OH shuffle which retains full stock. Cuts? Sure. Shuffles. No. You should ignore "Bind Shuffles, Retaining Entire Order, First Method". Fail.
Message: Posted by: Steve Burton (Nov 17, 2017 02:20PM)
The Erdnase blind shuffles work very well to retain the full stock. I use them all the time. The shuffle referenced: [i]Blind Shuffles, Retaining Entire Order, First Method[/i] retains the order and cuts the deck. The stack can be brought back with a single cut, which usually follows a shuffle anyway. Vernon gave a wily tip in [i]Revelations[/i] where he directed you make the last throw a single card. The deck can be turned face up and repeated and the deck is back in full deck order.
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Nov 17, 2017 03:30PM)
[quote]On Nov 17, 2017, Steve Burton wrote:
The Erdnase blind shuffles work very well to retain the full stock. I use them all the time. The shuffle referenced: [i]Blind Shuffles, Retaining Entire Order, First Method[/i] retains the order and cuts the deck. The stack can be brought back with a single cut, which usually follows a shuffle anyway. Vernon gave a wily tip in [i]Revelations[/i] where he directed you make the last throw a single card. The deck can be turned face up and repeated and the deck is back in full deck order. [/quote]
I agree.

Alternatively, on the last throw, of the original, do a lift of all the left hand cards and throw them last. Deck is back in order without any cut or 2nd shuffle.

Performed twice in a row, it's an excellent false overhand shuffle.

Another slight modification of the original, to avoid the cut or a two shuffle sequence, is instead of dropping the last packet on top, perform a false drop (optical shuffle) and finally drop the packet at the bottom.
Message: Posted by: Steve Burton (Nov 19, 2017 02:30PM)
[quote] Alternatively, on the last throw, of the original, do a lift of all the left hand cards and throw them last. Deck is back in order without any cut or 2nd shuffle.

Performed twice in a row, it's an excellent false overhand shuffle.

Another slight modification of the original, to avoid the cut or a two shuffle sequence, is instead of dropping the last packet on top, perform a false drop (optical shuffle) and finally drop the packet at the bottom. [/quote]

What a great tip! Thank you.
Message: Posted by: thomasP (Nov 22, 2017 09:05AM)
Thank you too for that tip !!
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Dec 18, 2017 02:13PM)
I have nothing against memdeck stuff or against those who do memdeck stuff - but I guess I'm somewhat entitled to my opinion after being involved in magic for about 80(!) years. I stopped doing memdeck stuff many decades ago - and...I've written about this a number of times - I still worked only with borrowed decks. I'd excuse myself at one point to go to the bathroom - taking the deck with me. I'd memorize the shuffled deck in the bathroom, then come out and do a few memdeck things. But...

I stopped doing that when I realized that I could do much stronger, "jaw dropping" effects/routines with a shuffled deck then I could ever do with a memorized deck. Just my personal experience/opinion - obviously biased - so people don't have to pay attention unless they feel that a bit of attention may perhaps be beneficial.
Incidentally - I've written about this often (even in my memoir, BEFORE I FORGET) so I don't want to be repetitious - but doing a "memory" routine with a shuffled deck of cards when I was doing table magic for a living (I was 19 years old) moved me into my "memory" career.
Message: Posted by: scottbuck (Dec 22, 2017 04:46PM)
Many of the stack books are stack independent. Take a look at Aronson's work.
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Dec 22, 2017 06:54PM)
[quote]On Dec 22, 2017, scottbuck wrote:
Many of the stack books are stack independent. Take a look at Aronson's work. [/quote]
Indeed. Except "Try the impossible" which is mainly Aronson stack oriented.
Message: Posted by: Pasteboard Alchemist (Dec 22, 2017 09:40PM)
[quote]On Dec 22, 2017, Waterloophai wrote:
[quote]On Dec 22, 2017, scottbuck wrote:
Many of the stack books are stack independent. Take a look at Aronson's work. [/quote]
Indeed. Except "Try the impossible" which is mainly Aronson stack oriented. [/quote]

Worth noting, however, that "Try the Impossible" has what I consider to be one of his best stack-independent effects: Twice as Hard. The book is a wealth of info, but that effect alone makes it worth the price for me.
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Dec 29, 2017 03:54PM)
Harry is the creator. If he thinks his material cannot be improved by a stack, he must have some solid reasons to say so. I imagine if it was otherwise he would've already made those tricks with a mem-deck.

And also, as he explained a lot of times, he works a lot FASDIU, from a borrowed deck. In that scenario, going to the trouble of setting up a mem deck may not be worth, since he has some really powerfull effects.

But, since I strongly believe everything should be questioned, a good exercise could be trying to improve some of Harry's creations with mem-deck. What does not work for Harry may work for you. After all, impromptu card magic is not the only way to do card magic, right?

Maybe you can do that, maybe you can't. Maybe you will end up creating something new by applying principles of Harry's effects to mem-deck work. Who knows?
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Dec 29, 2017 03:58PM)
As for the OP:
You can start building your own divination of cards routine.

And the post above also should be considered: trying to improve the effects you already do by using a memdeck. What things can you do invisibly with a mem deck? What infirmation is availabe to you with the use of a mem deck? All sorts of interesting questions and creative uses can be applied :)
Message: Posted by: RiderBacks (Jan 1, 2018 02:35AM)
[quote]On Dec 29, 2017, Ricardo Delgado wrote: Harry is the creator. If he thinks his material cannot be improved by a stack, he must have some solid reasons to say so. I imagine if it was otherwise he would've already made those tricks with a mem-deck.[/quote]

Nah. It has more to do with an old dog not being able to learn new tricks.

[quote]On Dec 29, 2017, Ricardo Delgado wrote: And also, as he explained a lot of times, he works a lot FASDIU, from a borrowed deck.[/quote]

I know. According to HL, he *only* works with a borrowed deck. That's a significant self-imposed limitation. And a stupid one. I have no idea why one would impose such an absurd limitation on themselves unless they are just too old to learn new tricks.

[quote]On Dec 29, 2017, Ricardo Delgado wrote: In that scenario, going to the trouble of setting up a mem deck may not be worth, since he has some really powerfull effects.[/quote]

I'm unfamiliar with most of them. I've seen TBGDILCR or whatever awful title it has. That was a total flop. I've shown his performance to several people. All of them laughed and instantly got it. I mean, maybe if your audience consists only of idiots...

[quote]On Dec 29, 2017, Ricardo Delgado wrote: But, since I strongly believe everything should be questioned...[/quote]

Good. I approve. I like your style.

[quote]On Dec 29, 2017, Ricardo Delgado wrote: ... a good exercise could be trying to improve some of Harry's creations with mem-deck. What does not work for Harry may work for you.[/quote]

Will never happen. There is one person whose books I will never buy. That is HL.


[quote]On Dec 29, 2017, Ricardo Delgado wrote: After all, impromptu card magic is not the only way to do card magic, right?[/quote]

Of course. But you don't have to go into the bathroom and memorize a deck either, even if you restrict yourself to performing for people who hand you a deck. There's this neat move called a "deck swap".

[quote]On Dec 29, 2017, Ricardo Delgado wrote: Maybe you can do that, maybe you can't. Maybe you will end up creating something new by applying principles of Harry's effects to mem-deck work. Who knows? [/quote]

Oh, of course I can. HL has enough effects published that it's beyond absurd to suggest that no single one of them can be improved by using a stack. He's just such a collosal, self-promoting, ****** that I can't support him. My library is extensive enough as it is that I can't work through it in a lifetime. And I still have hundreds of books I'd like to add to it. None of those will ever be HL's.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 08:17AM)
This is the first time ever that I got my laugh of the year on the very first day of the year. The moderators must love idiots === or, could it be? This troll is one of the moderators?! Nah, can't be.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 08:20AM)
Oh; I do want to be clear. I think everyone, all new people in magic, should listen carefully to RiderBacks - might as well learn from those who've contributed sooooo much to magic - including the great thoughts and advice above. Wow! That's so OBVIOUS.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 08:21AM)
Could his real name be Pupkin???
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Jan 1, 2018 10:07AM)
The very first trick in Close Up Card Magic, "Location Supreme" is improved by using the top 16 cards of any memorized stack instead of just the face cards. Because there is no pattern to see you can be less discrete in culling them to the top, and you can openly display the deck during the routine.
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Jan 1, 2018 10:34AM)
"Lazy Man's Card Trick", near the end of that same book, is similarly improved by using a memorized stack instead of an entire suit in sequence. There are many more in just that one book. "Card Sandwich" can be done instantly with any named card instead of a card selected and controlled, and the simple move described in that routine is a killer tool for mem-deck workers.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 11:09AM)
Of course - if you carry your own deck, CR-Shelton, that's fine. I don't. Sorry about that, RiderBacks, your remark - "I know. According to HL, he *only* works with a borrowed deck. That's a significant self-imposed limitation. And a stupid one. I have no idea why one would impose such an absurd limitation on themselves unless they are just too old to learn new tricks"

That has to be one of the top, if not THE top, on my list of STUPID remarks. Of course, I've probably written hundreds of times why I never carry my own deck - but of course, since you say above that you'd never buy any of my books - you don't know my reasoning - but even with that complete lack of knowledge you do keep on "ranting" - that's okay; you have to keep up your reputation of MR. OH SO OBVIOUS. And yes, of course, I'm "too old to learn new tricks" ---- as usual, never buying my books - which always contain MANY new tricks --- adds to your obvious ignorance.

Incidentally, CR-Shelton, I've written a few times that I do use ten memorized cards for Lazy Man's Card Trick, but I memorize them "on the run," so that I can do the effect ANY TIME and with a BORROWED DECK. (So sorry, RiderTro.., oops sorry again - RiderBacks.)
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Jan 1, 2018 11:14AM)
No you can set the cards up after a shuffle just as described in the book, but you set up the top 16 of your stack instead of the face cards. No need to carry a deck.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 11:43AM)
Sorry, lost me there --- I don't know what you mean by "the top 16 of your stack." I simply memorize the ten face cards of the shuffled deck in order (or any ten and cut them to face), shuffle keeping them in place - and go.
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Jan 1, 2018 12:18PM)
I was referring to “Location Supreme”, hence the “instead of the face cards”. By top 16 of your stack I meant the cards number 1-16 of whatever stack you prefer. Not sure how to be more explicit about that.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 12:32PM)
Oh. Well, you would absolutely LOVE Location Supreme Anytime, near the end of JAW DROPPERS TWO. Why? Because is teaches how to do Location Supreme at any time, with any deck, and with NO MEMORY WORK WHATSOEVER.
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Jan 1, 2018 12:52PM)
I've already done all the memory work though. The recall is no work at all, it's automatic. What other benefit does the new version have, that would justify putting extra work into learning it?

Working with borrowed decks is your jam, not mine. My cards are my instrument and my audience doesn't begrudge my having a preference, just as the audience at symphony knows the virtuoso could play any clarinet they handed him, but they don't expect him to borrow one from the audience each performance. This seems entirely a topic for another thread and I'll be interested in continuing it if one pops up.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 01:44PM)
No problem - as usual, my cliché - to each his own. Interesting analogy, except that there are no (so far as I know) "fake" clarinets, as there are fake/set-up and/or trick decks.

And to try to answer your question - the "benefit" my new version has is - you can be handed someone else's deck and do the darn thing - and the "extra work in learning it" is about one minute. But if being able to do those kinds of effects when someone else's deck is handed to you is not important - then, obviously and of course, my suggestions - my "jam" - is of no importance to you. And again, that's fine - to each his own.

The only other thing I must mention is that I understand that your audience doesn't begrudge you having a preference, and that's fine. The thing is - MY audiences DO!! So again, and obviously, to each his own.

To save time and space - no need for another "topic" because I've written this here, there and everywhere MANY times --- and again to save time and space, let's call it my personal opinion if that makes some happy(!) - doing any strong effect with your own deck LOSES ANYWHERE UP TO 20% or more of the effectiveness of that effect.(No matter how "stupid" the guy who likes to RIDE my BACK calls it. Like he REALLY knows.)

Now, I understand that that concept may be pertaining to the effect. I can only speak for myself and my 80 years(!) of experience doing card magic all over the world - it all started all those decades ago when I'd do one of my routines and the attitude I'd hear is - "It's gotta' be a trick deck!!" That's it - they (at least the audiences I have/had experience wi sth - in all areas, all types, all over the world) "know" that what they just saw is IMPOSSIBLE so it has to be a "trick" deck. They'd either say it, or it was obvious in their attitude. I started seeing the DIFFERENCE in remarks/attitudes when I started doing the same effects/routines with BORROWED deck. So perhaps it all breaks down to the type of card magic you do.

And for those who are going to respond by saying that you can give your deck to the spectator or let them examine it to prove that it is a regular deck - no, sorry, doesn't work. I know 'cause I tried that all those decades ago. Attitude is - "Hey; I'm not a magician - I won't be able to find the trick in your deck!"

So again - I guess it's all according to the kind of effects you do. Forgive what seems like ego (and I really don't care if some think it is!) - the kind of effects/routines I do (teach) with cards - laymen will simply assume that it can only be a trick deck - UNLESS YOU DO IT WITH THEIR DECK! I really see no way that that can be "disputed."
Message: Posted by: Tim Cavendish (Jan 1, 2018 02:38PM)
I think the tradeoffs in performing with a borrowed vs. non-borrowed deck have already been considered and accepted by the people who populate this forum, which is explicitly about stacked and memorized deck magic.

This is like going into the coin forum and arguing that the folks there should dump their coins and perform with cards instead.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 02:57PM)
Wish I understood your analogy, Tim, then perhaps I'd learn something. But not sure I understand it. Are you saying that the subject shouldn't be discussed because it has "already been considered and accepted..." etc? Because how can that be so when there are two and half pages about it here?
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Jan 1, 2018 03:04PM)
I understand the analogy. I’m pretty sure you’re right that you’d learn something from it if you could understand it too. There are only two-and-a-half off topic pages here because you came in to change the topic and got defensive when that was pointed out.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 03:27PM)
Yeah - you're so right - your vast knowledge - Good Lord, 57 posts - makes you sooooo right.
Message: Posted by: Tim Cavendish (Jan 1, 2018 04:27PM)
A discussion of deck switching might be useful, to give the appearance of using someone else's pack while still using the stacked deck, which is the clearly defined tool specified by this forum.
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Jan 1, 2018 04:34PM)
You claim 80 years of experiece. Is that just your posts on the Café, or can we agree that experience transcends internet posts?
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 06:10PM)
I don't "claim" anything - I simply, always have - "tell/told it like it is." I don't know about "experience transcending internet posts" -- not sure I even know what you mean - that's why I'm told that I'm just about the best writer in magic - BECAUSE I SAY IT LIKE IT IS - no need to try to figure out "what the heck is he talking about"?

So, yeah, I'll take this great chance - and put my LITERALLY 80 years of card magic experience against your - to repeat - "...vast knowledge - Good Lord, 57 posts - makes you sooooo right." And we'll all breathlessly await your next "what did he say?" response.
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Jan 1, 2018 06:21PM)
Not understanding basic posts seems to be a repeating problem for you, but I can clarify: My 57 posts do not represent the whole of my knowledge of magic, any more than your 7567 represent the whole of your knowledge in magic. Are you prepared to argue that those posts are in fact the sum of your knowledge, or are you hypocritical enough to apply that standard to me but not yourself?
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 06:33PM)
Good; as I said, we all breathlessly awaited your "what the heck is he talking about" response. You didn't disappoint.

Now let me save time and space - whatever it is you're saying/talking about - you're absolutely right. Now, instead of wasting more of everyone's time - you can go back under your moist rock and continue to pull wings off flies.
Message: Posted by: CR_Shelton (Jan 1, 2018 06:43PM)
Whether your failure at reading comprehension is feigned or genuine, I'm confident my posts make perfect sense to the rest of the readers. Instead of under a rock, I'll go back to being a professional, paid magician. You have stated that it's been decades since you did that, so I have no hesitation trusting that I've got a finger closer to the pulse of the modern-day audience's mindset.

You can go back to being retired and pretending no new ideas have surpassed the ones you had in your glory days, but believe me they have.
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Jan 1, 2018 09:18PM)
Mr. Lorayne, the section "Shuffle, not stirred" of The Magic Café is devoted to those interested in memdeck work.

You are completely right when you say you are entitled to have an opinion and you have already made clear for us that you don't work with memorized decks. But the question was literally about card magic with memdeck. If you don't do that kind of stuff, then your reasons (which you have already mentioned) can be of interest, but not much more than that (specifically in this context).

We already know you don't do memdeck, but should we all stop using memorized decks just because you don't?

In April 1983, for the vol. 6 of Apocalypse, you wrote about an effect by Tamariz called in spanish "Los Tres Actores". I, here, ttranslate the first paragraph from Spanish (my source) to English:

"Juan, together with Camilo, Ascanio, Anton and maybe 25 other magicians is member of the "Escuela Magica de Madrid", the most prestigious group of close up and card magic in Spain. He has some excellent card magic routines..."

Well, Juan uses memorized decks. Use is not the right word, he amuses with memdeck. Your first advice to the OP was to learn impromptu card magic, which is basically telling the guy to drop memdeck magic altogether. Would you say that to Juan Tamariz as well?
Message: Posted by: RiderBacks (Jan 2, 2018 04:58AM)
Do you have a deck I could use? Yes? Great! Here's a sharpie. Take your deck out and sign the face of each card to make sure I don't secretly swap out any of your cards for my own. I'll just sit here for several minutes while you do that. Once you've finished, I promise I've got some great, impromptu tricks to show you, and you'll be able to be perfectly assured that I'm using *your* cards--not my own! Yes, my magic comes with the rock-solid guarantee that no trick decks are in play!

Oh, you over there? You think this guy might be a stooge? Let's burn that idea. Do you have a deck? Yes? Great! Could you take the sharpie and sign every single card in your deck? .... Thanks.

Now both of you, please wash your cards for us. Really mix them up. Make sure to prove that I couldn't possibly have the order of the cards in either of those decks memorized. Great, thanks for your help.

Now, if you would, while I close my eyes, I want just one of you to hand me a deck. I won't even know whose deck I'm using! Hang on, and let me plug my ears with these earplugs. Now you can pick a random third spectator to decide whose deck we should use. Once you've figured that out, and placed a deck of cards in my hands, I'll perform the remainder of this trick without removing my blindfold, just to make it as clear as possible that I haven't used a stooge.

Do you know what we call this nonsense? Running while you're not being chased.
Message: Posted by: RiderBacks (Jan 2, 2018 08:39AM)
If HL is constantly running into the problem of folks thinking he's using a trick deck, I think HL needs to rethink his routines. That's what I'd do.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 2, 2018 10:15AM)
RiderBacks: Your post above makes sense - yours above that does not. The answer to your makes-sense post is obvious - at least to me - if you do really IMPOSSIBLE-seeming things with your deck, laymen will think it's a trick deck. Now, that's from my 80 years of experience - if I'm wrong, so be it --- but I will continue, as I have for a couple of decades, to use only borrowed decks for laymen. Finally; I think your remark about me rethinking my routines fits much better for YOU! Start to do IMPOSSIBLE-seeming routines and you'll see that laymen always think you're using a trick deck. Again, if I'm wrong, so be it.

I won't bother responding to CR....'s silliness except to tell him that I have been coming up with new ideas for decades - and some more coming up in my upcoming book, AND FINALLY! Retired? Wherever I go - to this day - I'm asked to "do something." And the people I "do something" for are the kind of people (Mel Brooks, Carl Reiner, former mayor of NY Mike Bloomberg, Alan Alda, Dick Cavett - and on an on -- and their friends) that I'm sure don't fall into CR...'s area/category. So, as usual - he has absolutely no idea as to what he's talking about. My advice remains as stated - suggest that you pay no attention to him whenever he comes out from under his trollistic moist rock.

Ricardo: Nice to see an intelligent post, one that "fits" the subject. Thanks for that. So, just a couple of points in response to a couple of your statements/questions. In no way have I ever said that anyone should stop using memdecks - or anything else - that they want to use. I must have said this many times - TO EACH HIS OWN.

I'm stating my opinions, and the things that WORK FOR ME when I enter these threads. If that's wrong, I apologize. Incidentally, another one of your statements that I must mention - when I suggest to anyone that they learn some good impromptu card stuff in no way am I telling him or anyone "to drop memdeck work altogether." You're putting words into my mouth there, Ricardo.

Re: Juan Tamariz. Again, you're missing the point. What Juan does publicly FITS him - that's what he does. And he does it great. (Remember? To each his own.) But - I don't have to suggest to Juan that he learn some impromptu, any deck, card stuff. He's a friend - he visited me at my home in NYC some years ago, and we did card stuff for each other for hours. He blew me away with his NON-MEMDECK effects/routines. And if you check, say, Blown Away, his contribution to APOCALYPSE, you'll see that that does not depend on a memdeck. (I did make a few changes to it in one of my most recent books.) Anyway; hope I've made myself clear re: some of the stuff here. Most important - to each his own!
Message: Posted by: Nicolino (Jan 3, 2018 02:11AM)
[quote]On Jan 1, 2018, Ricardo Delgado wrote:
We already know you don't do memdeck, but should we all stop using memorized decks just because you don't? [/quote]
Well, maybe. Us unworthy should definitely start reading the good stuff, LOL! :bg:
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Jan 3, 2018 08:05AM)
For the OP:
I don't use a stack much, but what I do with one (or am trying to do with one):

Weighing the cards (and other stuff, see EoCT Nikola section and elsewhere), and other super-sense demonstrations (see Darwin Ortiz Memorized deck download).
Card Calling (awesome!)
Some mental tricks from Corinda's 13 Steps
Pseudo- memorisation tricks
Card matching effects
Card control effects (dealing 4 of a kind or whatever)
Red/Black effects, like OOTW etc.

There's probably a huge amount more, but that's what's keeping me busy with stacks at the mo. :)
Message: Posted by: RiderBacks (Jan 4, 2018 12:37AM)
[quote]Weighing the cards...[/quote]

I approve of Aronson's advice. Don't do that...
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Jan 4, 2018 12:44AM)
I'm not aware of that advice - is it because he thought it was an obvious methodology?
Message: Posted by: tomd (Jan 4, 2018 10:51PM)
I can't push the button on performing weighing cards because it is kinda boring/less impressive then many of the other possibilities.

I was having a conversation with a laymen about feeling for cards the other day, and demonstrating that through the sensitive nerves in the thumb (and with enough practice) you can detect how many cards you were holding at a time. This wasn't a pseudo demonstration, I was doing it for real. Started with 3 or 4 and moved up and down a small scale (nothing like the amount or speed you can do with mem work), and in my mind it wasn't fun.. his reaction was muted admiration for the work I had put into the craft, and I feel like the weighing cards effect is a just that.

The reaction is purely skill based admiration. I understand that fundamentally every reaction is an admiration for the skills you have honed, because pretty much everyone knows magic isn't real.. but other tricks (especially some of the mem deck ones) offer a sense of magic (even momentarily) that takes the breath away from the people viewing. Weighing cards creates an inevitable "ok, so what?" moment in the minds of the spectators unless specific conditions are met. magicians who display card control techniques fit those conditions for the most part.

I much prefer tricks like mnemonicosis, because WHEN DONE RIGHT, it's just so *** impossible. This was the kind of trick that I got into magic for, and there are many others like it. I know many magicians that throw "weighing cards" routines into their mem deck work and I really wonder why.. it doesn't fit the rest of the magic they are demonstrating..

I'm rambling now. I don't think it gives away methodology, as long as a couple of false shuffles are thrown in there.. just hate it when the magicians conflate magic with believable demonstrations of skill (and it's possible applications).

Obviously not saying anyone here is doing that, I just know many that do.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Jan 5, 2018 12:41AM)
I can understand that. However, you might want to do it exactly as a skill demo (I think this is how Richard Turner uses it in the midst of a gambling demo), which is what I'm aiming for. It can be part of a three or four way skill demo, as per Darwin Ortiz (weighing, instant memorising, psychic sense). But yeah, on its own, it's not a huge kicker - but it can be part of a nice more fully fleshed out routine, IMHO.
Message: Posted by: tomd (Jan 5, 2018 01:09PM)
[quote]On Jan 5, 2018, Terrible Wizard wrote:
I can understand that. However, you might want to do it exactly as a skill demo (I think this is how Richard Turner uses it in the midst of a gambling demo), which is what I'm aiming for. It can be part of a three or four way skill demo, as per Darwin Ortiz (weighing, instant memorising, psychic sense). But yeah, on its own, it's not a huge kicker - but it can be part of a nice more fully fleshed out routine, IMHO. [/quote]
Yep those are the conditions where I think weighing cards makes sense. It floats well in and amongst other demonstrations of skill, e.g. Any gambling routine.

I have noticed many who will perform ACAAN or any other impossible feat with cards, and weighing cards will be in the same performance. I always question why, as it only leads a viewer down the path of "that must be a technique he uses to complete/help with the previous or following tricks". Surely this isn't something you want to do if you want to sell the impossibility of the effects. I hate giving an audience an out for explanation, if what I do seems so impossible.

Weighing cards will work for you terrible wizard, as you seem to understand the logical framework that the effect needs to be placed in. That framework isn't my style, but it's a great one to go for. And now you have me pondering how much of a kicker ending you could have with the weighing cards plot alone.. that sounds like a fun restrictive challenge.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Jan 5, 2018 03:41PM)
Nice thoughts :)
Message: Posted by: Sanks (Jan 29, 2018 07:27AM)
Memorising the stack in my opinion is one of the most difficult things to do. Once you have done that, to perform some amazing miraxles you should in my view aim to master false shuffles, peeks, pass, culling and centre dealing.

Darwin Ortiz has some great books that deal with mem decks.

Some good effects: last laugh, test your luck. best of the best
Message: Posted by: peculiarone (Mar 9, 2019 09:09AM)
[quote]On Nov 11, 2017, Harry Lorayne wrote:

Doing magic for pay hasn't been part of my life for about seven decades. So over those decades when friends or anyone who knew "me and mine" and if they wanted to see me do some magic - they had to have a deck handy. Many times people ran out to buy a deck. I simply will not carry my own deck unless I'm showing stuff to other magicians - never/ever for laymen. That way I never hear - haven't for those decades - "Impossible; has to be a trick deck"

That's interesting. I am a security officer at a hospital. Once I ran into a nurse that I worked with at a different hospital and she knows that I do magic. She had gone on vacation and bought a deck of cards with a picture of the hotel she stayed at on the backs. She asked me to do a trick with them. I think I did a sandwich effect I learned from Chris Power. I did it for her and a bunch of other nurses. When I finished the effect one of the other nurses said "trick deck". The nurse who bought the cards corrected her by reminding her that she had bought the cards.

PO