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Topic: Chris Ramsay?
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Dec 1, 2017 12:35AM)
What do people here make of Chris Ramsays YTube channel?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLNZrOW6Nuoco65HvWWnqrlKGGpZ9cozPo&v=rbSl4X7HNOI
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Dec 1, 2017 09:24AM)
He's got some videos I dig, but for the most part I just don't jive with VLogs. I also frequently disagree with his thoughts on magic, but that's just a difference of opinions, really.

I think I preferred it before he went full time YT, as now he has to crank out content and it seems like he's more inclined to do tutorials to get the views.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Dec 1, 2017 11:11AM)
That seems like a fair response. I think I feel kinda the same way. I only discovered him recently, and I like a lot of his vlog things - some are funny, some interesting, some get to reflect. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I disagree. He always comes across as genuine, sincere and nice, though - which is a great positive. :). I notice he has some exposure tutorial stuff, but I haven't bothered with that.
Message: Posted by: GeorgeKerzon (Jan 6, 2018 02:32AM)
I think the bigger problem with youtubers who use magic as their main vehicle is that magic is inherently about secrets. Trick reveals get the most views. So whether you're chris ramsey, evan era or russian genius eventually you'll be cranking out trick reveals for likes, subs and money!
Message: Posted by: Joshua Barrett (Jan 9, 2018 02:16PM)
I'm waiting to see a youtube magician that can do it without using exposure as driving force. Is it possible? I think you would have to make some sort of show format, but that would require much effort.
Message: Posted by: GlennLawrence (Jan 9, 2018 03:46PM)
I've been watching his channel for a bit over a year, and overall I like it. I don't care for everything on it but at the end of the day he strikes me as pretty sincere. It seems a lot of his subs are kids just looking for tutorials so it appears he needs to do that to keep many coming back, but it also seems he's careful to teach things that are in the public domain, or things from friends of his who have granted permission. I'm not sure what it is about the channel that intrigues me but it might just be that he's a likable fellow who's pretty entertaining!

Glenn
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jan 9, 2018 06:53PM)
[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, Joshua Barrett wrote:
I'm waiting to see a youtube magician that can do it without using exposure as driving force. Is it possible? I think you would have to make some sort of show format, but that would require much effort. [/quote]

I've never seen anyone do it on a significant level. There are channels with few videos, but it seems all the big channels (as in, the size one could make a reasonable income from) resort to exposure in some way or other.
Message: Posted by: Dollarbill (Feb 25, 2018 10:07PM)
I like the format, I like the attitude. I think its entertaining. long story short.......period.
Message: Posted by: DavidJComedy (Mar 22, 2018 05:40AM)
[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, Joshua Barrett wrote:
I'm waiting to see a youtube magician that can do it without using exposure as driving force. Is it possible? I think you would have to make some sort of show format, but that would require much effort. [/quote]

I've never seen anyone do it on a significant level. There are channels with few videos, but it seems all the big channels (as in, the size one could make a reasonable income from) resort to exposure in some way or other. [/quote]


And as you said in an earlier post, WitchDocChris, he has recently done a lot more tutorials. I think most of us are torn these days due to the nature of what social media as related to magic has become. I struggle to decide where my opinion truly lies, but I generally take the "well, everyone else is doing it" attitude. Now, some don't like that attitude, but it is becoming truer by the day. From big names to no-names, there is certainly not a shortage of tutorial videos out there. As a positive, it is creating attention to the art, and developing new magicians. The issue is that we, as a magic community, need to do a better job explaining to the viewer what is and what isn't good magic.

A guy like Ramsey, or guys like Sankey, etc are top professionals, solid and/or expert performers and what they teach is based on years, sometimes decades of experience performing and creating real world magic. They can be trusted. You are learning proper technique, psychology, etc. Then you have the 10 year old "look at the trick I just learned" or "here is how this gimmick works that I just bought". You really get nothing from these videos. THOSE videos, I feel, are the ones ruining magic on the internet.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 22, 2018 08:37AM)
In my opinion, guys like Sankey and Ramsay are a large part of why we have those 10 year old's exposing tricks.

Think about - someone new to magic sees these guys getting all this attention, having products published on the market, sees them seemingly making a good living. This is the model they see - dudes on YouTube exposing tricks. So how are they supposed to know any better?

The 10 year olds are just following the lead. It's not their fault. It's the ones setting the example.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Mar 22, 2018 08:52AM)
I sure agree with THAT! --Thanx, Witch!!
Message: Posted by: GlennLawrence (Mar 22, 2018 02:01PM)
I find reading the comments section of these youtube videos very telling. Even the magicians who never do tutorials have people badgering them to post a tutorial of what they just saw. It's almost like these kids feel they're owed a full explanation! It's gotten to the point where I've seen at least one or two magicians who were so exasperated that they posted a video on the subject of "Why I don't do tutorials!"
Message: Posted by: GlennLawrence (Apr 9, 2018 01:40PM)
Update on this topic! 2 days ago Chris posted a video explaining that he would no longer be doing sleight of hand tutorials. He will still have other magicians on his channel who may wish to show tutorials of their own original material and he will also still have cardistry tutorials but that's it. I won't get into the reasons but you can see the video where he does go into detail on that.

Looks to be a little backlash from his subs and comments but most of his fans seem to be supportive.
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Jan 2, 2019 10:41PM)
Chris also posted a so called reaction video where he sits and mocks Harry Blackstone Jr for his 1987 performance that had some technical failures. He seems to have no respect for Harry as a fellow magician. On the contrary, he throws insult to those that came before him and picks apart everything in the video.
I think that is gross. He's not qualified to lick Harry's boots. He's an internet magician who puts others down. I saw him do it to a fellow working magician, Matthew Furman. Mocked and belittled his personality. For internet views/ cash.
What kind of thing is that to do to a fellow magician?
He's no magician in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: GlennLawrence (Jan 3, 2019 01:36PM)
HeronsHorse, I've posted elsewhere on my feelings about the Ramsay reacting to Blackstone video so I won't rehash here, but I'll only add regarding Blackstone's performance itself, that it was a lot more than some technical failures. It was an outright disaster all around and as much as it hurts me to say, being a big Blackstone fan, it deserves to be mocked. Harry should have never agreed to those conditions and that pathetic, embarrassing patter that clearly was beneath him. There obviously was little to no rehearsal and that fake horse production was beyond ridiculous. I don't know if he did the thing for a paycheck or what, but I have to believe he must have regretted it immediately, and for a long time after. Having seen his live show around 1984 which was excellent and flawless, it's like watching a different magician. Ramsay is right about one thing for sure, it is hard to watch, especially knowing that Blackstone was so much better than that....
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Jan 3, 2019 02:36PM)
We must agree to disagree on that. I don't think he deserved to be mocked. The act, yes, but him personally, no. They ripped him apart like kids in a playground. Pathetic.
Also, I can't name anyone who would've refused such a gig. He perhaps thought he'd have more rehearsal time, who knows. Not Chris Ramsay methinks.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Jan 3, 2019 05:28PM)
Hi Heron! I'll be PMing you soon. I like your attitude!

Dick
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Jan 3, 2019 07:51PM)
[quote]On Jan 3, 2019, Dick Oslund wrote:
Hi Heron! I'll be PMing you soon. I like your attitude!

Dick [/quote]
Thank you, and I look forward to it!
Paul
Message: Posted by: GlennLawrence (Jan 4, 2019 01:05PM)
[quote]On Jan 3, 2019, HeronsHorse wrote:
We must agree to disagree on that. I don't think he deserved to be mocked. The act, yes, but him personally, no. They ripped him apart like kids in a playground. Pathetic.
Also, I can't name anyone who would've refused such a gig. He perhaps thought he'd have more rehearsal time, who knows. Not Chris Ramsay methinks. [/quote]

I don't know that we are disagreeing too much. If you re-read my post, I say it (meaning the act) deserved to be mocked. Nowhere did I say Blackstone himself should be. As far as knowing anyone who would refuse the gig, I don't know the truth of that. For "name" magicians I would imagine they might refuse if the conditions of the contract might be damaging to their reputation.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Feb 27, 2019 03:56PM)
I tried watching that reaction video. And whilst I agree that the Blackstone performance was bad, it just seemed mean what they were doing. I turned it off after a minute or so. Not my cup of tea to just mock people like that, even when they perform badly.

I don't watch that much magic on YouTube, or anywhere else, any more. It's all got rather boring, IMHO. There's tons of really great magic to watch - from Fool Us,to Derren Brown specials, to AGT, to Netflix specials, etc. But it seems to me like there's too much - I actually preferred it when there was just one magic show on TV and most people didn't get to see much magic excpet done live, and even then rarely.

Magic needs, I think, at least some mystique for it to work - now it has next to none. And not just because of the hideous YouTube tutorials of which there seems to be an infinite supply. But also because of a saturation of good, but on TV, magic, and a huge amount of easily available good resources (like books, DVDs, downloads, online magic shops, and even this forum).

I'm noticing more and more phrases like, 'magic is dead' crop up online and elsewhere. Mass TV and Internet exposure was just one part of what generated that sentiment. Mass teaching was another. TV street magic was another. And TV talent show style magic was yet another. Mobile phone culture is another. There's probably a few more. But magic, as it was, does, to me, seem to be if not dying then at least morphing into something else. Whether it'll be a good or bad transformation I don't know.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 28, 2019 08:05AM)
"Magic is Dead" is cropping up because there's a book that was just released (two days ago I think) with that title from Ian Frisch, and he has been promoting it relentlessly (as is appropriate, if one wishes to sell their book). That and it was Madison's catch phrase, so all his disciples use it too.

To borrow a phrase from Daniel Greenwolf, which I do agree with, "Magic is in it's 3rd Golden Age".

It's more popular now than it ever has been. More shows on TV with good ratings. More live shows touring and holding theater slots regularly. Magicians winning TV-talent shows where previously that was unheard of. Obviously the size of the casual performer market is growing daily. That has pros and cons, obviously - but one thing that occurs to me is a major plus - people are more likely to see magic performed live now than ever before.

Which means they're more likely to see more than one magician live, than ever before.

Which means they will have something to compare performances to, which cuts back on the whole thing where when someone sees a terrible magic performance they say, "Magic sucks" instead of "this magician sucks".

So really, it should motivate magicians to put more work into being entertaining.
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Feb 28, 2019 08:59AM)
Well said Chris.
Magic is not dead yet!!
:magician:
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Feb 28, 2019 09:01AM)
Good points :)

I suspect the magic is dead sentiment resonates more with hobbyists, since amateurs are going to a much harder time trying to be better than Dynamo and Shin Lim than professionals are.

It might be that amatuer magic live performance is dead (or dying) and that hobbyists will now only be seen at crotch-level 'doing tricks' on YouTube, or exposing the work of professionals, since the amatuer market for 'secrets' will never die.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 28, 2019 10:02AM)
"Magic is Dead" is just the hook. The full schtick was, "Magic is dead to the audience, so I, as the performer, must convince them it's alive and real." (paraphrased)

The idea being that the performer has to work extra hard to make sure the performance seems impossible and magical.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Feb 28, 2019 10:06AM)
Yes, I think that was Madison's point. Probably Ramsey's and jerx's too (who have also done stuff with that phrase).

But I see it as applying differently to hobbyist magic than professional (the Jerx goes into that angle).
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 28, 2019 10:13AM)
Yes and no.

"Professional" means they make their living with magic. That's really the only qualifier. It does not denote quality of performance at all. I've seen some pretty bad professional performers.

Many of the greatest thinkers and creators in magic were and are amateurs.

I think it would be more accurate to separate people into 'casual' and 'serious'. Casual magicians are going to be far more likely to slack in regards to creating quality performances because they just don't care that much. Someone who's serious about magic will put the effort into improving their performance because they do care.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Feb 28, 2019 10:38AM)
I agree, but I also disagree.

There is a difference between casual and amatuer, but there is also the issue of how much more difficult and unlikely it is for a hobbyist to practically 'compete' with TV magic.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 28, 2019 04:42PM)
Ascanio won FISM when he was a hobbyist.

Well performed live magic will almost always be 'better' than magic on TV. The reason for this is quite simply that when seeing magic on TV there is a literal barrier between the viewer and the magic, whereas live magic is right there in front of them.

All it takes is the performer being sure to develop a good show, rather than simply doing magic at people.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Mar 1, 2019 12:16AM)
I think there's a miscommunication here.

The typical hobbyist, as I'm using the term, doesn't do shows, nor wins FISM, nor has the budget, skill, time, crew, audience and editing of Dynamo.

I'm thinking of folk like me, of the kids you see on YouTube, of the card trick uncle etc. Probably of the vast majority of people who buy many tricks and ask questions in the top sections of this forum (how many people posting in the beginner forum are likely to turn out to be the new Ascanio?)

For the majority of hobbyists, who are realistically never going to win FISM or perform shows better than what's on TV or even be close to what Angel, Blaine, Dynamo or Brown can do with a TV budget behind them, this new golden age is like a death knell.

Whereas thirty or twenty years ago one could simply do a decent trick well and expect a fair reaction, that is now much harder. Twenty years ago if someone had showed me Spin Doctor, good sw*mi work, B'wave or a chop cup routine I would have been amazed. Now, not so much. Twenty years ago you could bemuse and befuddle with a a simple card trick, now you might well be asked if you can do what so and so did on the TV, or met with someone telling you how you did it because it's on YouTube.

An averagely skilled, averagely talented, average hobbyist can still raise a smile or fool someone with a standard bought packet trick, but it seems to me that there is now less bang for their buck - they have to work much harder, be more creative, present better, practice more, just to maintain the reaction from a decade or two ago or avoid the mass exposure effect.

In short, hobbyists have had to raise their game so much so as to get a reasonable response that it has now become almost out of reach, and thus simply easier for some to get their 'magic kick' from 'performing' on YouTube, buying (or stealing) secrets, and exposing stuff online.

I suspect that the unintended side effects of all the great TV magic will be less hobbyists performing in real life, an explosion of exposure online, the loss of magic mystique, and in time a more jaded and difficult to please public who's demand for novelty and wonder will ever more outstrip the ability of casual, maybe even some professional, magicians.

I've been to live shows with non-magician friends and found they and I were mentally comparing the onstage performers to what we'd got used to on TV - and the tricks on TV won. It's hard for professionals to compete, I don't think the majority of hobbyists stand a chance.
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Mar 1, 2019 02:05AM)
[quote]On Mar 1, 2019, Terrible Wizard wrote:
I think there's a miscommunication here.

The typical hobbyist, as I'm using the term, doesn't do shows, nor wins FISM, nor has the budget, skill, time, crew, audience and editing of Dynamo.

I'm thinking of folk like me, of the kids you see on YouTube, of the card trick uncle etc. Probably of the vast majority of people who buy many tricks and ask questions in the top sections of this forum (how many people posting in the beginner forum are likely to turn out to be the new Ascanio?)

For the majority of hobbyists, who are realistically never going to win FISM or perform shows better than what's on TV or even be close to what Angel, Blaine, Dynamo or Brown can do with a TV budget behind them, this new golden age is like a death knell.

Whereas thirty or twenty years ago one could simply do a decent trick well and expect a fair reaction, that is now much harder. Twenty years ago if someone had showed me Spin Doctor, good sw*mi work, B'wave or a chop cup routine I would have been amazed. Now, not so much. Twenty years ago you could bemuse and befuddle with a a simple card trick, now you might well be asked if you can do what so and so did on the TV, or met with someone telling you how you did it because it's on YouTube.

An averagely skilled, averagely talented, average hobbyist can still raise a smile or fool someone with a standard bought packet trick, but it seems to me that there is now less bang for their buck - they have to work much harder, be more creative, present better, practice more, just to maintain the reaction from a decade or two ago or avoid the mass exposure effect.

In short, hobbyists have had to raise their game so much so as to get a reasonable response that it has now become almost out of reach, and thus simply easier for some to get their 'magic kick' from 'performing' on YouTube, buying (or stealing) secrets, and exposing stuff online.

I suspect that the unintended side effects of all the great TV magic will be less hobbyists performing in real life, an explosion of exposure online, the loss of magic mystique, and in time a more jaded and difficult to please public who's demand for novelty and wonder will ever more outstrip the ability of casual, maybe even some professional, magicians.

I've been to live shows with non-magician friends and found they and I were mentally comparing the onstage performers to what we'd got used to on TV - and the tricks on TV won. It's hard for professionals to compete, I don't think the majority of hobbyists stand a chance. [/quote]

I never read such a negative, pessimistic view!
The good thing is, you're not even right.
good sw*mi work, B'wave or a chop cup routine still definitely amazes.! I have no idea why you think otherwise.
Who cares what dynamo et al are doing?!
If you cant bring the entertainment then hobbyist or not, why are you even bothering with magic?! Magic is STILL about the presentation, not the effects! Why don't you know orcunderstand this?!
Your post says a lot more about where you are emotionally than it says about magic.

I absolutely love seeing the wonder on faces after I've made them feel it. I've never had an actual show, I study the books of the past and psychology and misdirection, read about performance and showmanship, and try to perform for strangers when I can. I'm perhaps a hobbyist in your parlance. Yet I do not have your outlook or your depressing negative attitude. I feel elated at the prospect of going from strength to strength, perhaps one day becoming more than what I do now.
Magic is alive more than ever and there are many really poor magicians out there. I see it as mine and others like me's, task to rectify this, by studying our craft hard and not becoming one of those poorly practised magicians who don't know how to perform, only know how to stand there doing tricks they bought.
That is where the extra work is! That is what makes us have to work harder!
But, you know ... magic has never been easy. I'm glad it is so difficult. At least it keeps sone from pursuing it.
The key point is that the effect is only a vehicle for entertainment, it isn't the end game. I can entertain someone with a very simple trick and so cpuld you. Bought packet trick? Who needs one of those?
I think you should go back to basics and shake that jaded outlook... Fitzkee, Henning Nelms and Tamariz have much to say on the value of the performabce aspect.

Apologies for the apparent rant. I'm not putting you down, your post struck a chord in me. I think magic is exploding and whilst yes, youtube is an abomination with no rules and exposure everywhere, it isn't anything close to a death knell. You only need to change your perspective my friend.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Mar 1, 2019 02:22AM)
[quote]On Mar 1, 2019, HeronsHorse wrote:

I have no idea why you think otherwise. [/quote]

Different experiences, I guess.

[quote]
Who cares what dynamo et al are doing?! [/quote]
Audiences.

[quote]
Magic is STILL about the presentation, not the effects! [/quote]
I disagree. It's about both. And in hobby magic I 'd say the effect is more important. I'd get better reactions with a perfect ACAAN and no presentation skill than the 21 card trick and a great presentation.


[quote]I absolutely love seeing the wonder on faces after I've made them feel it. [/quote]
Which is why its a bad thing, IMHO, that it is becoming harder to achieve this, because more people are exposed to the secrets and exposed to TV magic which cannot realistically be competed with.

[quote]I'm perhaps a hobbyist in your parlance. [/quote]
Yes.

[quote]Yet I do not have your outlook or your depressing negative attitude. [/quote]
Also yes.

[quote] Magic is alive more than ever and there are many really poor magicians out there.[/quote]
The two are connected.

[quote] I see it as mine and others like me's, task to rectify this, [/quote]
I think it's becoming harder for the average hobbyist to do this. Technically, the average hobbyist is probably light years ahead of the hobbyist thirty years ago. But the reaction they get is a diminishing return.

[quote] only know how to stand there doing tricks they bought.[/quote]
Which is a performance style itself. Some dislike 'presentation'.

[quote] That is where the extra work is! That is what makes us have to work harder! [/quote]
I disagree. It's the 'fooling' aspect that is hard and getting harder, thanks to mass exposure and the comparative TV bar being set ever higher. The presentation aspect hasn't changed, IMHO.

[quote] magic has never been easy.I'm glad it is so difficult. At least it keeps sone from pursuing it. [/quote]
Totally agreed. But it's getting harder, and harder, and at some point will be too hard for hobbyists. And they will move to youtube and video magic and exposure instead, I suspect.


[quote] The key point is that the effect is only a vehicle for entertainment, it isn't the end game.[/quote]
Again, I disagree. The effect should be an integral part of the 'entertainment'. A good effect trumps a good presentation, imho, for the hobbyist (obviously not for the pro - different environment).


[quote] I can entertain someone with a very simple trick and so cpuld you.[/quote]
I can entertain people with no trick at all, but then it isn't magic - it's just good social skills. Magic has to fool and amaze as well as entertain, otherwise you're better of telling jokes or playing music. And you can't fool with a bad trick, or a when people know the trick/secret (at least as easily as you could with a good trick and no exposure).

[quote]Bought packet trick? Who needs one of those? [/quote]
The customers of the big magic sites, like Penguin. Like you said, B'wave is a good trick. So is Colour Monte, Spin Doctor, NFW, etc. Nothing wrong with good packet tricks. Hobbyists like them because they are portable. Portability is important to casual magic.

[quote]I think you should go back to basics and shake that jaded outlook [/quote]
Maybe. But pessimism is just part of me.

[quote] Apologies for the apparent rant. [/quote]
No problem :)
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 1, 2019 07:32AM)
[quote]An averagely skilled, averagely talented, average hobbyist can still raise a smile or fool someone with a standard bought packet trick, but it seems to me that there is now less bang for their buck - they have to work much harder, be more creative, present better, practice more, just to maintain the reaction from a decade or two ago or avoid the mass exposure effect. [/quote]

And you see this as a bad thing. Gotcha.

My point this whole time has been that the bar has been raised and that's a good thing. Maybe it's not as easy as it once was to elicit genuinely solid reactions from the audience - but the reason for that is that the audience now has something to compare a performance of magic to, and if the live performing isn't living up to their expectations that's the fault of the performer failing to do their job.

Now if someone wants a good reaction, maybe they have to actually put in some work into being worth that reaction.

I never get people comparing my performances to TV shows. At least, not out loud where I or my people can hear it. Perhaps the problem isn't that magic audiences are too informed and/or jaded, but that too many people are trying to copy other performers?

[quote] And you can't fool with a bad trick, or a when people know the trick/secret[/quote]

Yes you can, if you put the work into making it fooling. I've been fooled with a method I taught to the person who fooled me, because he changed it up on me.

I think you're just dead set on finding reasons why it's something else's fault that you're not getting the reactions you want.

Argue for your limitations and they will indeed be yours.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Mar 1, 2019 07:54AM)
[quote]
And you see this as a bad thing. [/quote]

Yes, for the typical hobbyist and for their audiences who will have less amazement now than in times past, at least.


[quote]My point this whole time has been that the bar has been raised and that's a good thing. [/quote]
Only up to a point is it a good thing.
Like, imagine the bar got so high that no matter how hard you tried you simply couldn't amaze, fool or entertain with magic, anymore, because what had become the 'norm' required skill, money, technology, and secrets you simply couldn't acquire. Or imagine that half your audience knew how you did most of your effects. [/quote]

[quote]
Maybe it's not as easy as it once was to elicit genuinely solid reactions from the audience [/quote]
This is my main point, yes.

[quote]
but the reason for that is that the audience now has something to compare a performance of magic to, and if the live performing isn't living up to their expectations that's the fault of the performer failing to do their job.[/quote]

Agreed. It's not the audience's fault, but it's unrealistic for the hobbyist to walk on water or fly or convince people to commit murder or become religious, like you see on TV with Dynamo or Derren Brown.

[quote]
Now if someone wants a good reaction, maybe they have to actually put in some work into being worth that reaction. [/quote]
True. But it might be that the amount of work is beyond the hobbyist with a full-time job; the amount of skill is beyond the ordinary guy; the amount of money is beyond non-TV magicians etc. No doubt other professions have become harder too - look at TV cookery, for example. Hard for a Sunday cook to compete with Ramsey. Or beauty standards, hard for your average Joe and Jane to compete with photoshopped, plastic surgery, genetically gifted super stars. [/quote]

[quote]I never get people comparing my performances to TV shows. [/quote]
Cool.

[quote]At least, not out loud where I or my people can hear it. [/quote]
Ah.


[quote] Perhaps the problem isn't that magic audiences are too informed and/or jaded, but that too many people are trying to copy other performers? [/quote]

Or both. They aren't mutually exclusive. Perhaps copying is another side effect of the internet and the renaissance of TV magic.

[quote] Yes you can, if you put the work into making it fooling. [/quote]
If I know the actual trick methodology, not just the move or prop, I say you can't.

[quote] I think you're just dead set on finding reasons why it's something else's fault that you're not getting the reactions you want. [/quote]
No need to make it personal.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 1, 2019 10:16AM)
[quote]Like, imagine the bar got so high that no matter how hard you tried you simply couldn't amaze, fool or entertain with magic, anymore, because what had become the 'norm' required skill, money, technology, and secrets you simply couldn't acquire. Or imagine that half your audience knew how you did most of your effects. [/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

[quote]True. But it might be that the amount of work is beyond the hobbyist with a full-time job; the amount of skill is beyond the ordinary guy; the amount of money is beyond non-TV magicians etc. No doubt other professions have become harder too - look at TV cookery, for example. Hard for a Sunday cook to compete with Ramsey. Or beauty standards, hard for your average Joe and Jane to compete with photoshopped, plastic surgery, genetically gifted super stars. [/quote]

People who are good at things, got that way by working at it. "Natural talent" is a myth.

I work full time, and so does my wife. Yet my solo shows and performances get consistently good reviews.

I do a duo-sideshow act with her, generally at festivals, fairs, and local events - again, highly regarded and popular performances.

She does stilt walking and aerials as fantasy characters - looks she designs and creates herself. She learned the make up skills through YouTube and practice.

Want to meet "beauty standards"? Work out, eat better, learn how to style your hair, learn what clothing looks best on you. There's YouTube videos for all of that (and these tutorials are perfectly ethical, since they are not exposing anything secret anyway).

Want to cook like Ramsey? Look up recipes, follow the directions. Eventually it becomes innate. And hey, Ramsey has a Master Class now - you can learn directly from him! The best cooks I know are all self taught. The information is out there.

[quote]If I know the actual trick methodology, not just the move or prop, I say you can't. [/quote]

If someone takes a method you're familiar with, but dresses it in a presentation that you're not familiar with, you're likely to be fooled. Look at P&T - they're fooled on every show by methods that they probably know, but are in a different context.

The human mind operates on patterns. If someone is recognizing a trick, it's probably because they've seen that exact trick or something very similar to it recently. Not copying other people's presentations is the first step to making exposure irrelevant to your performances.

I repeat - maybe the problem isn't external. Maybe the performers who aren't seeing the results they want should stop putting so much effort into finding excuses and scapegoats, and instead invest that energy into getting better at performing.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Mar 1, 2019 10:53AM)
I don't believe I've been guilty of a fallacious reductio argument. My analogies are fine.

I also don't believe talent is a myth. Some people have natural advantages over other people, whether in looks, height, courage, IQ, temperament, or a million other things. The hardest working guy with an average IQ doesn't get to be a prize winning physicist, for example. Or even, likely, a doctor. Short people don't often get to play top level basketball. Ugly folks don't become models. Some people are tone deaf, have terrible dexterity, or a terrible lack of imagination. People aren't equal. Work doesn't balance it all out.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 1, 2019 12:21PM)
Keep arguing for those limitations.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Mar 1, 2019 01:14PM)
Yes, I will keep arguing for reality, because only by understanding reality can one even hope to make changes for the better. Otherwise one chases phantoms in pursuit of improvement. :). Anyone telling someone who clearly lacks the natural ability to do something they cannot is doing that person no favours and setting them up for failure and wasted time.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 1, 2019 01:38PM)
I'm just glad folks like Mahdi Gilbert didn't listen to cynical attitudes like this.

Or it's just a way to justify not having the self discipline to improve.

No skin off my back, I'll keep perfecting my craft while those who lack the discipline can moan about the bar being raised above their heads.
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Mar 1, 2019 02:48PM)
Oh dear.
You took the time to (attempt to) address every single point I made, drowning it all in your pessimistic flair.
I apologise, for even bothering. I just don't know what else to say. I don't want to address your respobses obe by one because I fear it'll become an endless loop which I have no interest in.
As you will continue to depress yourself, people like me will continue to enjoy practising and getting those reactions.
I can't relate, sorry.
I think you might benefit from a new hobby.

PS. My point about packet tricks went over your head. I simply meant that because so many of them are just tricks with fewer cards from a normal deck, why buy those? It's silly when you can use your own cards. Most are a scam! Buy 4 kings and 4 queens and an ace! Only ten pounds! Bargain, not!
Anyway that's another debate (I won't be bothering with either).
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Mar 1, 2019 02:53PM)
[quote]On Mar 1, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
I'm just glad folks like Mahdi Gilbert didn't listen to cynical attitudes like this.

Or it's just a way to justify not having the self discipline to improve.

No skin off my back, I'll keep perfecting my craft while those who lack the discipline can moan about the bar being raised above their heads. [/quote]

And for every Mahdi how many failures?

Would you consider a careers advisor who told every student to just follow their dreams, even when those dreams were utterly unrealistic, to be a good advisor?
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Mar 1, 2019 02:54PM)
[quote]On Mar 1, 2019, HeronsHorse wrote:
Oh dear.
You took the time to (attempt to) address every single point I made, drowning it all in your pessimistic flair.
I apologise, for even bothering. I just don't know what else to say. I don't want to address your respobses obe by one because I fear it'll become an endless loop which I have no interest in.
As you will continue to depress yourself, people like me will continue to enjoy practising and getting those reactions.
I can't relate, sorry.
I think you might benefit from a new hobby.

PS. My point about packet tricks went over your head. I simply meant that because so many of them are just tricks with fewer cards from a normal deck, why buy those? It's silly when you can use your own cards. Most are a scam! Buy 4 kings and 4 queens and an ace! Only ten pounds! Bargain, not!
Anyway that's another debate (I won't be bothering with either). [/quote]

Sorry you feel that way.

What kind of reactions do you get, out of curiosity?

Edit:
Actually, you're right. I would benefit from a new hobby.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 1, 2019 03:16PM)
[quote]On Mar 1, 2019, Terrible Wizard wrote:
And for every Mahdi how many failures?

Would you consider a careers advisor who told every student to just follow their dreams, even when those dreams were utterly unrealistic, to be a good advisor? [/quote]

Moving goalposts. First you focus purely on the hobbyist and now you're talking about making it a career? Different things entirely.

Regardless - if the career adviser gave the advice of following the dream in such a way that also allowed the person to support themselves, then yes. One can have a job that pays the bills and save up money in order to make an easier transition into full time performing if they so desired, as many have done.

Professional performance is more about the ability to run the business side of things than being a phenomenal performer anyway.

But none of that really matters to my point - one can be an amateur, make no money from magic at all, and still be an excellent performer. The only thing stopping them is the discipline to improve. Everything you're saying is just an excuse to justify not putting more effort into improving.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Mar 1, 2019 03:39PM)
Fair enough. I understand. It's my lack of effort. You're right. Well, I have no more time or effort to give than I already do, so I guess that's that :)
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Mar 1, 2019 05:23PM)
I already said what the reactions are. Nothing different or unique. Just great reactions, faces of wonder, smiles, defences down, openness, enjoyment, respect.
To name a few!
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Mar 2, 2019 02:20AM)
But are they like you see on TV? Crazy loud running around screaming etc?
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 4, 2019 08:09AM)
[quote]On Mar 2, 2019, Terrible Wizard wrote:
But are they like you see on TV? Crazy loud running around screaming etc? [/quote]

I've gotten those reactions when I do 'classic' magic, but I don't aim for them. Sponge Balls will make people scream and run around. It's not hard.

I want more of a 'stunned silence' followed by applause for my parlor shows, and for casual close up stuff I want more of the thousand-yard-stare, "what the f...." kind of reactions. Both of which I usually get.
Message: Posted by: debjit (Mar 7, 2019 03:26AM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2019, Terrible Wizard wrote:
Magic needs, I think, at least some mystique for it to work - now it has next to none. And not just because of the hideous YouTube tutorials of which there seems to be an infinite supply. But also because of a saturation of good, but on TV, magic, and a huge amount of easily available good resources (like books, DVDs, downloads, online magic shops, and even this forum).

I'm noticing more and more phrases like, 'magic is dead' crop up online and elsewhere. Mass TV and Internet exposure was just one part of what generated that sentiment. Mass teaching was another. TV street magic was another. And TV talent show style magic was yet another. Mobile phone culture is another. There's probably a few more. But magic, as it was, does, to me, seem to be if not dying then at least morphing into something else. Whether it'll be a good or bad transformation I don't know. [/quote]

I sadly agree with this. The worst thing I think is the Julius Dein/Jibrizy style of fake camera magic because everyone shares them on social media and then expect us to do them and get those crazy reactions.
Message: Posted by: Bardin (Aug 3, 2019 08:26AM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2019, Terrible Wizard wrote:
Good points :)

I suspect the magic is dead sentiment resonates more with hobbyists, since amateurs are going to a much harder time trying to be better than Dynamo and Shin Lim than professionals are.

It might be that amatuer magic live performance is dead (or dying) and that hobbyists will now only be seen at crotch-level 'doing tricks' on YouTube, or exposing the work of professionals, since the amatuer market for 'secrets' will never die. [/quote]

I think a lot of professionals are going have a hard time being as good as Shin Lim, brother.
Message: Posted by: bluejay17! (Aug 8, 2019 10:25AM)
Shin Lim is talented, but his main skill is publicity. He sells himself and his persona so well. There are magicians who are far more talented, but if you can't market, you will never get that famous.
Message: Posted by: ABREWCADABREW (Aug 18, 2019 09:36PM)
And all the more reason I (remind myself to) do magic to be like me, not like anyone else - including those I respect and admire.
Message: Posted by: bluejay17! (Aug 19, 2019 04:49AM)
That being said, is Shin Lim doing magic like himself, or is he doing magic the way he believes will make him famous. Just some food for thought...
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 19, 2019 06:43AM)
[quote]On Jan 2, 2019, HeronsHorse wrote:
Chris also posted a so called reaction video where he sits and mocks Harry Blackstone Jr for his 1987 performance that had some technical failures. He seems to have no respect for Harry as a fellow magician. On the contrary, he throws insult to those that came before him and picks apart everything in the video.
I think that is gross. He's not qualified to lick Harry's boots. He's an internet magician who puts others down. I saw him do it to a fellow working magician, Matthew Furman. Mocked and belittled his personality. For internet views/ cash.
What kind of thing is that to do to a fellow magician?
He's no magician in my opinion. [/quote]

NEMO DAT QUOD NON HABET!!! I agree with Herons Horse.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 19, 2019 06:56AM)
I also agree,strongly, with Witch Doctor Chris, and, Blue Jay 17!