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Topic: Outlaw Effects Builds
Message: Posted by: Buddhaweasel (Feb 10, 2018 01:00PM)
Just to make this clear. Karl Feret and Tim Weisseman no longer work with Rick Rothbart or Outlaw Effects. He owes each of us substantial amounts of money and refuses to remove our photos from his web site. If you are purchasing anything from him be aware of what you are purchasing and very aware of the dispute cut off date with Paypal or you will be out of luck with any chance of a refund.
Message: Posted by: Delimbeau (Feb 10, 2018 03:09PM)
There must be a way to stop this neverending story...
Message: Posted by: cocomax (Feb 10, 2018 03:25PM)
On Dec 7th, 2017 Outlaw sold a Spiritas Maximus to someone for $600 and they emailed me today asking about the status of the order.

The Maximus is something that requires both myself (Tim Wisseman) and Karl Feret to make.

We are not building ANYTHING for Outlaw.

Chris T Sipes (Dr X) told me this morning that he knows nothing of the order, was never paid to build it and is no longer taking any new orders from Outlaw.

I was told this morning that Rick still telling people that I (Tim Wisseman) am building for him and everything is fine. That is untrue, I am NOT building for Outlaw and NEVER will again.

The Outlaw web site shows my items and even says I am building the items (see the Witch Box and Luna Key Box), this again is untrue.

This is MADNESS!
Message: Posted by: Perkins (Feb 10, 2018 05:54PM)
Two cents: Your name is your brand and this guy is scamming people by falsely representing you. You should team up and take legal action to prevent this. There are so many of us that would support you in this endeavor. It’s time to end this.
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Feb 10, 2018 08:23PM)
The only way to stop this, is stop buying from him. I can't imagine people are buying bizarre stuff like this, and have no clue on this guys long standing history of ripping people off over the years. Are these all new people who someone found him but didn't read the Café reviews or Google him? How is this possible to not know? Or are they taking a chance and complaining after. Percentage wise I bet a lot know...

Signed,
(The other) Rick.
Message: Posted by: Eddie Garland (Feb 10, 2018 08:37PM)
Friends do not let friends buy from OutLaw. Do not do it.
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Feb 10, 2018 09:35PM)
[quote]On Feb 10, 2018, cocomax wrote:
On Dec 7th, 2017 Outlaw sold a Spiritas Maximus to someone for $600 and they emailed me today asking about the status of the order.

The Maximus is something that requires both myself (Tim Wisseman) and Karl Feret to make.

We are not building ANYTHING for Outlaw.

Chris T Sipes (Dr X) told me this morning that he knows nothing of the order, was never paid to build it and is no longer taking any new orders from Outlaw.

I was told this morning that Rick still telling people that I (Tim Wisseman) am building for him and everything is fine. That is untrue, I am NOT building for Outlaw and NEVER will again.

The Outlaw web site shows my items and even says I am building the items (see the Witch Box and Luna Key Box), this again is untrue.

This is MADNESS! [/quote]


So, it seemed for a short time that Dr. X was Rick's new craftsman...has he burned this bridge as well?
Message: Posted by: cocomax (Feb 11, 2018 12:32AM)
Dr X's bridges with Rick are burned. The very same things that happened to me happened to Dr X. Rick owes him a lot of money for things built up to 8 months ago. He has build many things without any pay in hopes of bailing out Rick, but found out the hard way that Rick can make things worse much faster then anyone can bail him out.

Today Dr X found out that an Outlaw customer was expecting him to figure out how to and build a copy of Karl Feret's Spiritus Maximus before Feb 28th, something that he was not told of by Rick or paid by Rick to build. It is strange telling a customer that your (former) builder will ship something before Feb 28th and you have not told your (former) builder of the order or the deadline or paid him and on top of it all it is a very complex piece that he has never built before. It is something that Karl spent a great deal of time figuring out.

Customers popping up out of the blue asking about old orders I never heard of happened almost daily when I was building for Outlaw, now it happens about once a week.
Message: Posted by: Anverdi-museum (Feb 11, 2018 01:41AM)
Man, that sucks! A real nightmare that gives magic a bad name. I can vouch for Tim ( I am sure we all can )...he is an honest, hardworking, creative individual that does not deserve to be dragged into this nonsense, probably the greatest asset to come along in the magic community in years!
Message: Posted by: Intrepid (Feb 11, 2018 06:43AM)
Victimes can file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission

How to file a complaint:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Information#crnt

30-day Internet order rule:
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/business-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Feb 11, 2018 06:44AM)
[quote]On Feb 10, 2018, Darkness wrote:
The only way to stop this, is stop buying from him. I can't imagine people are buying bizarre stuff like this, and have no clue on this guys long standing history of ripping people off over the years. Are these all new people who someone found him but didn't read the Café reviews or Google him? How is this possible to not know? Or are they taking a chance and complaining after. Percentage wise I bet a lot know...

Signed,
(The other) Rick. [/quote]

He is selling through other names and other people. I bought an item on the auction site from Jack Sparrow and the Paypal bill came in as Outlaw Effects. Also bought an Outlaw book test item on the Café that I thought was pre-owned and it came still wet. Café member said that is the way he received it with instructions not to remove the rubber bands until it dries. So he must still be doing the paper stuff himself.

Difficult to counter these methods because the name or person changes.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Feb 11, 2018 08:35AM)
In the United States, mail and wire fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication. It has been a federal crime in the United States since 1872.

https://oag.ca.gov/consumers

https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/MailFraud/fraudschemes/FraudSchemes.aspx

https://www.paypal.com/us/selfhelp/article/How-do-I-report-potential-fraud-to-PayPal-FAQ2422
Message: Posted by: cocomax (Feb 11, 2018 10:15AM)
Rick C Rothbart, age 62 of Sherman Oaks, CA (The Outlaw) is now sending people to strangers houses to pick up checks for money he owes.

Today he told someone they need to go to the house of Rick Danial Roth (Age 50) of Simi Valley to pick up a check from a complete stranger who has nothing to do with Rick C Rothbart, but happens to have a similar name.
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Feb 11, 2018 11:38AM)
You and I both know Tim, that Chris T Sipes (Dr. X) was warned about Rick from the beginning of his partnership (a long time ago). But he still chose to work with him. Chris even removed his real name and started using Dr.X. The evidence presented to him was overwhelming, but he had no problem ignoring it and continuing making money for Outlaw. Until he was owed money. Please read that again.

It seems that even if you warn people they don't listen. Some even go into business with them, and they were warned!

I was very vocal about Rick and took a lot of flack from this community for doing so (remember? of course people don't because I'm the bad guy lol). As I am right now, for taking other positions of concern (I'm beginning to think it isn't worth it, but I don't care about sales). Only when it could no longer be denigned about Rick, did the more recognizable individuals from our industry come out of hiding to make a solid stand. Keeping silent for so long was wrong and only helped enable him longer. Rick was even invited to ECSS!!! How many shook his hand and had a drink with him knowing his history? As it was horrible then too. People even made jokes about his shady reputation, like it was funny or ok!!

How soon we forget the truth.

So yes, go ahead an warn the same people who know, but don't listen. What next? Dr. X becomes a victim? Hardly, he is part of the problem. And he does Gospel magic? lol this is a joke right? Is it heaven or hell? Pick one, I have...
Message: Posted by: cocomax (Feb 11, 2018 12:32PM)
Rick has been forgiven many times and given many second chances and turned over many new leaves.

The problem is MOST of the bizarre folks are very kind and honest people and trust one another as friends, Rick was treated as one of us.

Rick is one of a kind, a charming person, a sweet talker that is able to get what he wants, but he sees himself and calls himself "The Dark Lord"
not because he is a magician, he is not, he has never done a magic show in his life. He sees himself as the "Dark Lord" because of the power he feels he has to get people to do his bidding.

Back at ECSS1 when Rick and Vic did a panel Rick opened with the line, "Ask me anything you want, except, where is my order?" The signs of trouble were there long ago, I was foolishly working as hard as possible to make sure Outlaw customers got what they ordered while Rick ran the business into the ground.

I am still waiting to be paid for the things he took to ECSS1.

Rick is able to guilt builders into staying with him to make sure the customers get what they ordered.

He also runs up huge debts that he owes builders and builders stay with him with the hope that maybe someday Rick will pay off that debt.

In order to quit outlaw I had to accept the fact that a lot of people are not going to get what they ordered and will never get their money back.
I also had to give up all hope of ever getting the money that he owes me.

On the bright side by leaving I am no longer part of the problem, no longer helping Rick continue doing what he is doing.

Tim Wisseman
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Feb 11, 2018 12:56PM)
Too many conmen in our industry. Did you know Chris T Sipes is a real preacher? I wonder what his church and flock think of his dark passions? Hypocrite! Is he a conman?

Another shady practice is selling expensive props with zero effect stated. Basically you have no idea what you are buying, yet you gladly give these people your money and praise. You guys justify this like somehow it's normal and ok. Would you ever buy things in your daily life this way? "This mystery item will make you the greatest wizard in the world!". Who do I give my money to!?

We all have to take responsibility. I have, by making this not about me and taking one for the team. I wish others would at least say something to help support a solution to these problems. Or just blame me if it makes you feel better.
Message: Posted by: gothicmagic (Feb 11, 2018 01:13PM)
A) Rick was indeed at ECSS (at that time it was when he was attempting to "turn over many a new leaf" so we thought maybe having people pick up things owed to them or face to face may change things, obviously it didn't (we never paid him to be there, just so that's clear and can not be brought up later)

B) description of products should be included, but I have seen on more than one occasion people demanding the right that you tell them the method of the effect as "that was only fair disclosure also, nope (many a magic website will tell you you are buying the secret, once purchased there will be no returns, I believe Blackhart has a sticker on his products that say if opened may not be returned)

V
Message: Posted by: Winks (Feb 11, 2018 01:26PM)
Help me understand, Darkness, what you mean by dark passions. I, as many here know, am a real preacher and pastor of a Christian congregation (as is another prominent member here - but not having his permission, I won't name him). I love bizarre magic but but that doesn't put me in jeopardy with my beliefs or make me a conman, any more so than if I did card magic or coin magic. At least as I see it. So, please explain if you would, that I may understand. And I am also one who is owed by Roth and spoke out in warning about him as you did. I paid for Death Came Knocking at ECSS I and never received it.
Message: Posted by: gothicmagic (Feb 11, 2018 01:34PM)
What one portrays on stage and what one believes can be very different things I don't think many of the actors and actresses go home after doing a Shakespeare play and partake in incest,murder or other pastimes
although in modern Hollywood you never know
performance vs reality

but that and Outlaw effects are entirely different topics
Message: Posted by: Buddhaweasel (Feb 11, 2018 02:19PM)
Start here: https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company

As individuals reporting fraud to your local police it is worthless. If every customer or contractor who ever lost money to Rick and Outlaw Effects filed their complaint here, with the California Attorney General, it would maybe get him the psychiatric help he needs and the prison sentence he deserves. Individually he has stolen a few hundred here and there. Collectively it is tens of thousands of dollars over the years of federal and international fraud.

I spent years designing (independently and in collaboration with his ideas) and building the majority of Outlaw's most popular big money props (which would be nothing without Tim's magic) including The Departed, Spiritus Magnus, Spiritas, Spiritus Maximus, Occulus, Curtains, Polly, Lillians Jewelry Box, Death Came Knocking, Dark Lord Knocker and Cabinet de los Meurtos. Many times it took me refusing to ship props until I had payment in hand before I got paid. I was insulated from most of the drama because this was a side business to what I focus on and because Rick handled all communications, but I often caught whiffs of what was going on behind the scenes. I often got last minute "rush" orders from him, sounds like more often than not he never paid me or Tim and just took your money and ran (in addition to bilking us when he had the chance). Over the years I lost a few hundred dollars to Rick which I wrote off as bad debts because I never let him get too far behind and rarely shipped work without payment up front.

This form will take you less than ten minutes to complete. I've done it. If you want to stop this you need to get every person he has swindled to do the same. Numbers make a difference. If you are disabled, it matters. If you are elderly, it matters. If you are a vet, it matters. Only a collective effort can make this happen. I've got 8+ years worth of paper trail I'm more than happy to commit to this, but the AG will not respond to just one complaint.
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Feb 11, 2018 03:35PM)
With all due respect. If you need it explained winks then I don't know what else to add. Practice occult themed effects and divination and tell yourself your church would welcome that under the guise of entertainment. To each their own I guess.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Feb 11, 2018 03:49PM)
Not to detract away from the Outlaw theft thread but a number of people in certain professions struggle with the "ethics" of some areas of the art. Clearly being in a play is much different from less structured performances. I know that persons with a professional license subject themselves to significant liability by giving otherwise innocent appearing readings.
Message: Posted by: gothicmagic (Feb 11, 2018 03:59PM)
Indeed we are straying into disclaimer/disclosure (fortune telling, divination, curse removal, faith healing, etc.)
the play is the thing (Aiden mentioned someone "attempted to sue him after a performance as they claimed a "demon" followed their client home, Aidens attorneys response Bring it)
if we disclaim too much we lessen the theater (no one stands beyond the curtain before Les Miserables and reminds people they are not actually viewing a revolution), I myself thankfully have no such conflicts in my life, what you see is what you get

but all of this indeed has little to do with Outlaw
Message: Posted by: Winks (Feb 11, 2018 04:41PM)
I'll say this one last thing - Darkness, on the day you see me conducting a seance or a divination or calling a demon, you may rightfully call me on it. In the meantime, I do not think collecting apparatus and enjoying others' art while recognizing the illusion gives you reason to judge me.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Feb 11, 2018 05:53PM)
Https://www.mylife.com/rick-rothbart/e732900720510

looks like Roth's troubles are bigger than the magic community. It's always sad to see someone sink this low. While he frustrated me often, I got everything I bought from him. I defended him early on as problems emerged. Based on what we know today I would advise no one to do any kind of business with him.
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Feb 11, 2018 07:38PM)
Don't make it about you. I really don't care what you do. This is about Outlaw it just happens that I made examples to make a point.
Message: Posted by: Winks (Feb 11, 2018 08:02PM)
You made it. I, too, have been cheated by Roth. I'm sorry someone peed in your Wheaties.
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Feb 11, 2018 09:45PM)
Huh? Unless your name is Chris fom Outlaw, I wasn't originally addressing you. Sorry you mistake me for being angry. Hardly, more like disgusted.
Message: Posted by: Rocketeer (Feb 11, 2018 11:31PM)
Wow. This thread has been quite an eye opener. I did business with Rick years ago. I bought some of his merch and edited the instructions that came with a couple of effects. I never got burnt. I guess I should count myself lucky. Sad story.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Feb 12, 2018 12:19PM)
I have zero pity, for anyone that decided to make a buck with him, knowing his history.
This, "we wanted to help the poor guy out" stuff is garbage.
Everyone has known for years that he's (Rick Roth/Rothbart) is a scumbag thief.
I think everyone involved, was very aware of "the whispering behind the scenes".
What a load to insinuate being less then fully aware of the situation you decided to cash in on.
It's not been a secret. It's been vented, disused, and argued here for years now.

(Side Note:
I think he's, unfortunately, lowered the bar for the bizarre community in general.
Anyone receive the updated Luna yet?
No.
When pre ordered, was due by November.
Still waiting.
Now, this is from Vic, (NOT Rick. Want no confusion)who I tend to like a lot.
But, regardless of the myriad of excuses, this kind of delay seems normal only in this community.
three months late, and still being postponed.)

Back to Rick, he's garbage and a thief.
He's also a coward.
"The Dark Lord" is afraid to defend himself on a forum lol what a walking joke he is.

Thanks for the time folks. I feel better already.
Message: Posted by: steven-gibson (Feb 12, 2018 01:10PM)
Wow, I'm shocked to see you throw Vic from Gemini Artifacts into this conversation. Vic is a well-respected straight shooter. A manufacturing error delayed shipment of the new book test. That could happen to anyone.
Message: Posted by: bud.scott (Feb 12, 2018 01:13PM)
[quote]On Feb 12, 2018, 252life wrote:

(Side Note:
I think he's, unfortunately, lowered the bar for the bizarre community in general.
Anyone receive the updated Luna yet?
No.
When pre ordered, was due by November.
Still waiting.[/quote]

I too have a Luna on order, as of Feb 8th per his newsletter "LUNA UPDATE
LUNA UPDATE - I was told by the binder that they were in todays shipment to me. Once I have them I will need to age them. I will get them out as fast as possible. Thank you for your patience."

I talked to Vic at ECSS and he told me the binder screwed up, and the cover was not what he asked for, so they had to be rebound.

I been burned by Rick in the past as well and feel it is unfair to lump Vic in with him due to a delay on one item. Anything else I have purchased from Vic has been shipped on time. Vic is a stand-up guy and doesn't deserve to be compared to the likes of Rick Roth.
Message: Posted by: gothicmagic (Feb 12, 2018 03:48PM)
252life I'm hoping you aren't throwing us at the ECSS in the "making money off the situation" as we didn't make anything off of it
(was it wrong to let him attend possibly, but it was thought that some may get to speak to him there and fix their issues, obviously that didn't work) if you don't agree with that sorry too bad that was the reality of it
(no scheming or whispers were involved in our decision) so once again we cashed in on zero
just clearing the air, so it can't be used as a jumping off point later somewhere else
Message: Posted by: Scott Douglas (Feb 12, 2018 04:22PM)
I think moving forward conventions and gatherings like ECSS should consider banning/barring him from attending, if that isn't already in the works.

It's an insult to all the talented creators, not to mention regular attendees, to be sharing space with someone that only seems to be consistent at making excuses and taking money from people.

I think that would be a strong message from the community.
Message: Posted by: gothicmagic (Feb 12, 2018 04:43PM)
Rick was not included in any other than the first ECSS, and there aren't any future plans
Message: Posted by: RCP (Feb 12, 2018 06:13PM)
[quote]On Feb 12, 2018, 252life wrote:
I have zero pity, for anyone that decided to make a buck with him, knowing his history.
This, "we wanted to help the poor guy out" stuff is garbage.
Everyone has known for years that he's (Rick Roth/Rothbart) is a scumbag thief.
I think everyone involved, was very aware of "the whispering behind the scenes".
What a load to insinuate being less then fully aware of the situation you decided to cash in on.
It's not been a secret. It's been vented, disused, and argued here for years now.

(Side Note:
I think he's, unfortunately, lowered the bar for the bizarre community in general.
Anyone receive the updated Luna yet?
No.
When pre ordered, was due by November.
Still waiting.
Now, this is from Vic, (NOT Rick. Want no confusion)who I tend to like a lot.
But, regardless of the myriad of excuses, this kind of delay seems normal only in this community.
three months late, and still being postponed.)

Back to Rick, he's garbage and a thief.
He's also a coward.
"The Dark Lord" is afraid to defend himself on a forum lol what a walking joke he is.

Thanks for the time folks. I feel better already. [/quote]

That is a pretty wide brush of accusations.....Roth for many years (10+) over promised and under delivered. For the most part he eventually delivered and or paid his subs. About 3 years ago is when he really started to cheat people. I am not sure people being naive and trying to help someone they knew along time is a fault.

To lump Vic into the same category is offensive to me. He could have just sent out the sub par binding to you but he didn't. Luna is to my knowledge the 1st item he has ever sold that was not in stock. I have mixed feelings about pre-orders. I understand someone not wanting to take on the upfront cost without knowing how many might be sold. I rarely do pre-orders unless I know the seller.

Roth is not the first and probably not the last scumbag that steals from people here. There is a long list, all with a sob story, of why they over promised and disappeared as thieves.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Feb 12, 2018 06:19PM)
[quote]On Feb 12, 2018, gothicmagic wrote:
Rick was not included in any other than the first ECSS, and there aren't any future plans [/quote]

Not to be argumentative but Aiden Sinclair was tricked into being Roth's surrogate one year but helped many a person fulfill outstanding orders much to Roth's disdain. Like Vic Aiden is another stand up guy in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: gothicmagic (Feb 12, 2018 06:28PM)
Let's drop the ECSS connection as I've already stated our reasoning behind things,
we don't make anything on Any of our dealers (they get a table when register as a courtesy to help offset their expenses to get there)
Vic is a stand up guy (yes indeed Aiden did get screwed and missed most of that year babysitting props)
now back to the original topic
Message: Posted by: RCP (Feb 12, 2018 07:11PM)
[quote]On Feb 12, 2018, gothicmagic wrote:
Let's drop the ECSS connection as I've already stated our reasoning behind things,
we don't make anything on Any of our dealers (they get a table when register as a courtesy to help offset their expenses to get there)
Vic is a stand up guy (yes indeed Aiden did get screwed and missed most of that year babysitting props)
now back to the original topic [/quote]
Yes, I should have made clear ECSS is a stand up group and not in any way associated with the failings of Outlaw. Many of us were too accommodating to Roth's poor practices and slow to recognize the out right fraud as it developed.
Message: Posted by: Buddhaweasel (Feb 12, 2018 09:33PM)
Just to get this off my chest,

Firstly, I would like to apologize for my part in enabling Rick. I spent Gods know how many hours on the phone with him over the years and understood long ago that he was a sick (clinically so) individual. I did my best to keep things going and above board trying to get the best work out of my shop and out to you guys in a timely fashion. That did not always happen. Sometimes it was my own fault for getting overbooked between my work and Rick's. More often it was Rick feeding his need to close a deal even knowing that I would be out of town and unavailable for three weeks among his other shady ****. He did get progressively worse over the years and my last year working with him was the worst. Hence, my departure.

Secondly, I understand how he operates and you should too. It is a constant juggle with him to stay ahead in his own little one man pyramid scam. Pre-orders on an unfinished prototype get purchased and he blows the money on whatever. When production time comes he no longer has the money so wheels and deals for cash to get the first few orders filled and spark interest with delivered goods - which gets a few more of the pre-orders produced. And so on down the line until in the past couple years he has sunk beyond his ability to float and repay his debts.

If anyone deserves pity it is Rick and his family. I urged him on multiple occasions to get professional help - but people with his brand of mental illness don't see the need. He's like a junkie always looking for the next fix until it kills him. The only way to help him is to shut him down until a court order parks his ass in an institution for a serious intervention.

Rick can come up with some brilliant **** and we created some great effects together. If Vic catches this - Fine, work with Rick for ideas, but don't let him handle any or the orders, production or delivery. He can't be trusted to do what is right.

I was serious with my earlier posts about getting the AG involved and out of the business. This was not out of spite or vengeance, but to get him the help he needs and make this community a better place all around.
Message: Posted by: Dr SH (Feb 12, 2018 11:41PM)
Thank you Karl for the public apology. It is always the first step in a healing process. I think it is crucial. This Outlaw stories was really too long. I was very disheartening to witness, I have not contributed to the bizarre forum since the last post on Outlaw disappeared in August last year.

Obviously like in any problem it is never an unique cause. The responsibility of the situation is share at different levels.

Rick is obviously unwell and have many difficulties, we can only think to his family. People who contributed to his business by working for him even if they knew what was happening with Rick’s customer and enabling him to continue his business. The café who deleted posts of anybody complaining about Outlaw. The customers who were always jumping on any critic toward Rick’s service and added “ I always received everything from Outlaw ” , even if it was true , it was contributing for new /fresh customer to try his products and continue the vicious circle. So many layers of complexity contributed to this situation, so many ethical questions raised by this situation.

I feel it affected deeply our small community. I don’t only think to those who lost their money, to those who had the stress to send thousands of emails hoping to have an answer, to those angry who received another email “it is coming next week my friend”; I also think of all our great creators who were not rewarded because the money of our small community was diverted toward Outlaw.

Luckily our community is full of people willing to make some change, willing to apologize, willing to share, willing to organise great conference, willing to contribute positively to our art. We have great seller (Vic, Dan, Taylor….), we have amazing creators and plenty of people willing to bring more magic around in this world.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Feb 13, 2018 03:24PM)
Thank you Karl, 1st for all the wonderful effects you created and for coming forward now with an apology which you don't owe. He had plenty of people that didn't want to believe the worst. For those that don't know Roth was an annuity salesman before Outlaw. He shared some of the high pressure quotas he was under with me over coffee at ECSS. His wife was not happy when he walked away from that life (house, money, lifestyle) With the success of the 1st spiritus and shortly afterwards the re-animator I think is when he really started spinning out of control. He was always frustrating to deal with but he kept enough of us happy to continue here. For along time he really was the only source for effects. He called me one night furious because I had bought and reviewed one of Dan's items. As he lost his creators and more reliable sources became available he got worse. Like all ponzi schemes he had to rob peter to pay paul and eventually ran out of supporters. Sad all around......
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Feb 13, 2018 04:24PM)
I wouldn't say it was sad...

Manipulating, bullying, lying, cheating, conniving...yes...

Sad...maybe not...

All the people who used to act as Rick's digital bodyguards, they should be apologising too...
Message: Posted by: Lucien Astor (Feb 13, 2018 04:50PM)
[quote]On Feb 13, 2018, IAIN wrote:
I wouldn't say it was sad...

Manipulating, bullying, lying, cheating, conniving...yes...

Sad...maybe not...

All the people who used to act as Rick's digital bodyguards, they should be apologising too... [/quote]

Well said. For years those cronies bullied and manipulated facts, defended Rick's ethics for their own opportunism, and should now be ashamed of themselves. At the end they too got screwed over, and are now crying foul. They know who they are.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Feb 13, 2018 04:52PM)
[quote]On Feb 13, 2018, IAIN wrote:
I wouldn't say it was sad...

Manipulating, bullying, lying, cheating, conniving...yes...

Sad...maybe not...

All the people who used to act as Rick's digital bodyguards, they should be apologising too... [/quote]

A little self serving there Iain or have you forgotten your defense of your "friend" that ripped off a bunch of people? I have seen it countless times, people get in over their heads, lifes problems come along. There is a long list of offenders in magic if you want to start slinging dirt.
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Feb 13, 2018 05:46PM)
Anyone in the know who bought from Outlaw in the last two years should be apologizing. No sales equals no business.

BTW Rick is most likely loving us keeping this thread up high. He thrives on the attention negative and all. If you really want him to go away we need to stop posting and talking about him period. Its the greater good over the few that might buy and get ripped off. These posts are not preventing sales. Let the buyer beware. Let this thread sink with him.
Message: Posted by: LebanonCircle (Feb 18, 2018 03:00PM)
First and foremost, the Magic Café should be held partly responsible for years of deleting posts about Rick and Outlaw such as these warning about his business practices.

Magicians helping Magicans? Utter b*ll*cks as we like to call it here in the UK...

I started a post about this around 6 months ago, but is was deleted, hence I now have my own forum where people can say what they want...
Message: Posted by: vianns (Feb 27, 2018 11:51AM)
Kinda sad, I bought many items 2-3 years ago, every one of them came to me flawlessly...
Message: Posted by: atouchofmagic1 (Mar 4, 2018 12:41PM)
[quote]On Feb 12, 2018, bud.scott wrote:
[quote]On Feb 12, 2018, 252life wrote:

(Side Note:
I think he's, unfortunately, lowered the bar for the bizarre community in general.
Anyone receive the updated Luna yet?
No.
When pre ordered, was due by November.
Still waiting.[/quote]

I too have a Luna on order, as of Feb 8th per his newsletter "LUNA UPDATE
LUNA UPDATE - I was told by the binder that they were in todays shipment to me. Once I have them I will need to age them. I will get them out as fast as possible. Thank you for your patience."

I talked to Vic at ECSS and he told me the binder screwed up, and the cover was not what he asked for, so they had to be rebound.

I been burned by Rick in the past as well and feel it is unfair to lump Vic in with him due to a delay on one item. Anything else I have purchased from Vic has been shipped on time. Vic is a stand-up guy and doesn't deserve to be compared to the likes of Rick Roth. [/quote]

Vic most certainly is a stand up guy. I was able to scoop up one of the new books before it sold out and its amazing.

Regarding Rick, I placed an order from him a few months back for a Carnie Tarot. He wanted me to pay via friends and family to avoid fees, I refused that telling him I would not be protected. He kept on telling me how he would knock money off and give me all these great deals. He offered to throw in freebies as well. I declined explaining to him his reputation that I had heard about while he blew it off as nonsense. However, against my better judgement I placed the order anyway. I did receive my deck about 4 days after the purchase was made via priority mail. Emails continued for weeks after with him offering me all these amazing deals on his new products. I suspect had I paid him friends and family I would have been screwed I got lucky I suppose.

-Bob
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Mar 4, 2018 03:40PM)
I never, ever, pay vendors anywhere using the PayPal friends and family feature. If I hear the "avoid the fee" argument, I pay the difference but still go through regular PayPal. If they complain after that, you are still protected, and they have no legs to stand on.

I learned the hard way. Fool me once...
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Mar 4, 2018 04:02PM)
[quote]On Mar 4, 2018, Wizard of Oz wrote:
I never, ever, pay vendors anywhere using the PayPal friends and family feature. If I hear the "avoid the fee" argument, I pay the difference but still go through regular PayPal. If they complain after that, you are still protected, and they have no legs to stand on.

I learned the hard way. Fool me once... [/quote]

I have done the F&F with those who are truly considered Friends and/or family. If I do not know the person, and they insist on F&F to save the fees, I have reimbursed the fees as well, especially if that was an issue with the sale.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Mar 5, 2018 09:05AM)
[quote]On Mar 4, 2018, Wizard of Oz wrote:
I never, ever, pay vendors anywhere using the PayPal friends and family feature. If I hear the "avoid the fee" argument, I pay the difference but still go through regular PayPal. If they complain after that, you are still protected, and they have no legs to stand on.

I learned the hard way. Fool me once... [/quote]

I suspect many of us here on the Café have basically the same story. I always use the Goods & Services option unless it genuinely is friends or family.
Message: Posted by: atouchofmagic1 (Mar 5, 2018 09:20AM)
[quote]On Mar 4, 2018, Wizard of Oz wrote:
I never, ever, pay vendors anywhere using the PayPal friends and family feature. If I hear the "avoid the fee" argument, I pay the difference but still go through regular PayPal. If they complain after that, you are still protected, and they have no legs to stand on.

I learned the hard way. Fool me once... [/quote]

I should clarify that I did pay via goods and services. I just paid the retail price
Instead of accepting his amazing good deal if had gone with friends and family.
Message: Posted by: chrisnet (Jun 3, 2018 06:14PM)
I would like to introduce myself, my name is Chris

Rick called me in early 2017 to help on a book test "Stardust" at the time I knew nothing about the past few years of issues with others and outlaw. When I started to wholesale to Rick I gave him 12 months of "exclusivity" to some of my ideas and props that I have made in the past and he helped turn them into bizarre effects! Before this the only dealings I had with him was a item I purchased when he first started Outlaw, I never needed to purchased anything else from him, I build my own props!

Three months went by then I received a letter from a person who I now call a good friend, in this letter all was spelled out for me for the first time and at this time I log on to this forum for the first time in a long time and I was stunned at what I read! I called the person whom sent me the letter and talk to him about these issues and I explained to him that I gave my word that I would "wholesale" to Rick for 12 months, being a man of my word I explained to him that I would try to keep this agreement with Outlaw.

About 2 months went by and I started to see the things that I was warned about. Then people would call me asking about orders that they made that I never received. I then decided to deliver on the orders even know I was not paid and did not take any more wholesale orders from Outlaw. To make a long story shorter I fulfilled all orders that I knew of in early Jan 2018 and I have not talked to Outlaw since.

As anyone can see Outlaws website is no longer working and they are no longer taking orders that I am aware of. This for me has been a long year and for some of you a lot longer but I can not apologize for any wrong doing by others but I can apologize for my small part for not knowing what I was getting into. With that said it has all work out and I now have some good friends that I would not have the pleasure of meeting.

I truly believe that these bad times are behind this forum and Outlaw is now a thing of the past. A bright future is ahead for us all in bizarre magic.

I had a great time at the Battle of the Magicians and was well treated! I owe a great Thank you for the Magic community that treated me with respect while I was there, Thank you
Message: Posted by: Liam Sinclair (Jun 13, 2018 04:47PM)
[quote]On Feb 10, 2018, Buddhaweasel wrote:
Just to make this clear. Karl Feret and Tim Weisseman no longer work with Rick Rothbart or Outlaw Effects. He owes each of us substantial amounts of money and refuses to remove our photos from his web site. If you are purchasing anything from him be aware of what you are purchasing and very aware of the dispute cut off date with Paypal or you will be out of luck with any chance of a refund. [/quote]

I was too late to get the word ... I have been waiting for 8 months for a Hobbs box $600, a relic coin $110, and a black Witches Almanac $125 ... When I bought them Rick said that the Hobbs box was on the Bench and almost ready to ship ... He strung me along for months and then just stopped answering email ... I am 2 months too late for PayPal intervention ... Oh the pain ... I'm at a loss for words ...
w
Message: Posted by: WintersNight (Jun 19, 2018 10:55PM)
Outlaw was the first bizarre website I ever came across. I paid for Luna, Stardust, and Ash. I never received Ash or Stardust, but I at least got Luna.
Message: Posted by: Mind Guerrilla (Jul 1, 2018 07:46PM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2018, chrisnet wrote:
I would like to introduce myself, my name is Chris

Rick called me in early 2017 to help on a book test "Stardust" at the time I knew nothing about the past few years of issues with others and outlaw. When I started to wholesale to Rick I gave him 12 months of "exclusivity" to some of my ideas and props that I have made in the past and he helped turn them into bizarre effects! Before this the only dealings I had with him was a item I purchased when he first started Outlaw, I never needed to purchased anything else from him, I build my own props!

Three months went by then I received a letter from a person who I now call a good friend, in this letter all was spelled out for me for the first time and at this time I log on to this forum for the first time in a long time and I was stunned at what I read! I called the person whom sent me the letter and talk to him about these issues and I explained to him that I gave my word that I would "wholesale" to Rick for 12 months, being a man of my word I explained to him that I would try to keep this agreement with Outlaw.

About 2 months went by and I started to see the things that I was warned about. Then people would call me asking about orders that they made that I never received. I then decided to deliver on the orders even know I was not paid and did not take any more wholesale orders from Outlaw. To make a long story shorter I fulfilled all orders that I knew of in early Jan 2018 and I have not talked to Outlaw since.

As anyone can see Outlaws website is no longer working and they are no longer taking orders that I am aware of. This for me has been a long year and for some of you a lot longer but I can not apologize for any wrong doing by others but I can apologize for my small part for not knowing what I was getting into. With that said it has all work out and I now have some good friends that I would not have the pleasure of meeting.

I truly believe that these bad times are behind this forum and Outlaw is now a thing of the past. A bright future is ahead for us all in bizarre magic.

I had a great time at the Battle of the Magicians and was well treated! I owe a great Thank you for the Magic community that treated me with respect while I was there, Thank you [/quote]

Chris,

Please check your private messages. I sent one on June 13th and it remains unread. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: HeatherV (Jul 1, 2018 08:30PM)
OK, here's my story - I ordered a full Carnie tarot. Never received. Lessons learned yadda yadda, but beyond that I really *really* wanted that deck. It's a work of art in my opinion. So, if any of you could put me in touch with either someone who is willing to part with a full deck at a reasonable price, or the genius that made them as long as it's not Rick, I'd be humbly and most grateful. Thank you.
Message: Posted by: greerj (Jul 1, 2018 08:36PM)
Gemini Artifacts has the rights to the Carnie tarot now. I don't know if they plan on putting out a full deck, but you could contact them and ask.
Message: Posted by: ManxBull (Jul 2, 2018 02:32PM)
Yeah, the Carnie Tarot (both standard and Cursed editions) is available now from Gemini.

https://www.geminiartifacts.com/collections/general-bizarre/products/carnie-tarot
Message: Posted by: HeatherV (Jul 2, 2018 06:06PM)
Thank you all very much - the person who designed that deck is a genius. Period. And thanks to them, as well.
Message: Posted by: rkp (Jul 2, 2018 06:42PM)
And Vic at Gemini Artifacts will not disappoint! Outstanding customer service! You will have no issues!
Message: Posted by: chrisnet (Jul 11, 2018 08:39PM)
I now have some Stardust book test for sale at https://magicartifacts.com/product/stardust-book-test/
Message: Posted by: Merlinsmagic (Jul 11, 2018 08:54PM)
Hi Chris,
Was always curious about this book but not wanting to order from OE. Now re interested in this & I personally feel you should start your own thread introducing your sales of this here in spooky & bizarre as you deserve it & the credit for it but not the neg connection on an OE thread.....my 2 cents

Congrats on making this available from the creator 😊

Hope the above comment not taken negatively by you or anyone here, just think you deserve your own thread on your book Stardust & hope to see more of you here !
Message: Posted by: chrisnet (Jul 11, 2018 09:10PM)
Thanks and you are correct I will start a new thread
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jul 12, 2018 07:22AM)
[quote]On Jul 11, 2018, Merlinsmagic wrote:
Hi Chris,
Was always curious about this book but not wanting to order from OE. Now re interested in this & I personally feel you should start your own thread introducing your sales of this here in spooky & bizarre as you deserve it & the credit for it but not the neg connection on an OE thread.....my 2 cents

Congrats on making this available from the creator 😊

Hope the above comment not taken negatively by you or anyone here, just think you deserve your own thread on your book Stardust & hope to see more of you here ! [/quote]

I actually got the hardback book, but never got a manual, and COA took forever, just a page of instruction on the marking.
Message: Posted by: chrisnet (Jul 12, 2018 08:47AM)
I plan on putting together a video soon for the things that Rick left out. He only wanted people to use the left page "map force" that I came up with but I also put in more then that.
Message: Posted by: Astell (Aug 10, 2018 03:06AM)
Thank you for the posts, I'm glad the truth is out and that it wasn't just me!!!! I felt like it was at the time.
The bad news about Rick came a bit late and I lost a lot of money - although I did also receive some amazing magic tricks at the start.
I'd still like a Re-Animator. Does anyone know who actually made this for Outlaw Effects and if they can they make them direct to customers?
There's nothing else like it out there.
Message: Posted by: Nick Birch (Aug 10, 2018 06:34AM)
[quote]On Aug 10, 2018, Astell wrote:
Thank you for the posts, I'm glad the truth is out and that it wasn't just me!!!! I felt like it was at the time.
The bad news about Rick came a bit late and I lost a lot of money - although I did also receive some amazing magic tricks at the start.
I'd still like a Re-Animator. Does anyone know who actually made this for Outlaw Effects and if they can they make them direct to customers?
There's nothing else like it out there. [/quote]
Tim Wissemann makes the Reanimator. He's a member here so shoot him a PM and see if he's going to make another run.

Nick
Message: Posted by: dennfox (Aug 11, 2018 07:10PM)
Tim Weissman made most of the reanimator. However Professor B.C. also made the bat part of the effect! Contact Tim!
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Aug 11, 2018 09:34PM)
I don't own a Reanimator, but have always yearned for one. One a fantastic bit of foolery. I can only imagine having one setting about, inviting the curious visitor to ask "What is this?"
Message: Posted by: dennfox (Aug 12, 2018 01:47PM)
I once performed and demonstrated the Re-Animator to a visiting group o Japanese Science researchers visiting Gentech. My back story was absolutely believable and they were convinced I had found a scientific miracle from the defunct Fresno Museum of Science!
Message: Posted by: DocBenWiz (Aug 12, 2018 02:32PM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2018, Wizard of Oz wrote:
I don't own a Reanimator, but have always yearned for one. One a fantastic bit of foolery. I can only imagine having one setting about, inviting the curious visitor to ask "What is this?" [/quote]

Add me to the potential purchase list as I was drawn to Reanimator way back when I first ordered from OA, until a few years later I bought my last from Rick, after delays of part is of orders ( like pdfs, photos, etc)seeing what was going on with others and before I lost any $.
:sun:
Message: Posted by: vianns (Sep 3, 2018 02:58AM)
Hello !

A few weeks ago, the OE website was down (as far as I remember). Now it's online again. Don't know what to think about this.
Message: Posted by: Delimbeau (Sep 3, 2018 07:06AM)
[img]http://cobra.canvas.be/polopoly_fs/1.1290449!image/297757914.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape670/297757914.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Sep 3, 2018 08:40AM)
Just when we thought it was safe.
Message: Posted by: cocomax (Sep 3, 2018 09:19AM)
Has Rick sent out any newsletters to anyone lately?
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Sep 3, 2018 01:10PM)
I haven't received any.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Sep 3, 2018 02:47PM)
It's back from the dead
Message: Posted by: vianns (Sep 3, 2018 03:22PM)
[quote]On Sep 3, 2018, cocomax wrote:
Has Rick sent out any newsletters to anyone lately? [/quote]

Hi Tim,
Are you still crafting your magic items ? Where can we find them ?
Thank you !
Message: Posted by: Lo Pan (Sep 3, 2018 03:29PM)
[quote]On Sep 3, 2018, vianns wrote:
[quote]On Sep 3, 2018, cocomax wrote:
Has Rick sent out any newsletters to anyone lately? [/quote]

Hi Tim,
Are you still crafting your magic items ? Where can we find them ?
Thank you ! [/quote]

Tim is working with Gemini now and has released some beautiful artifacts lately
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Sep 3, 2018 03:50PM)
[quote]On Sep 3, 2018, cocomax wrote:
Has Rick sent out any newsletters to anyone lately? [/quote]

Not here.
Message: Posted by: afinemesh (Sep 3, 2018 04:18PM)
Not to me, either
Message: Posted by: scottishpiper51 (Sep 3, 2018 08:01PM)
I haven’t seen a recent newsletter from Rick. I was surprised to see a working link to the OE site in a recent Lets Make a Deal post. :huh:
Message: Posted by: chrisnet (Sep 3, 2018 09:16PM)
Outlaw's site is back and they have a lot of my effects shown, but I am not building anything for them. I also know that Tim is not building for Outlaw either. Outlaw uses the name "Doctor X" so they can keep up appearances without anyone knowing that I have left and am no longer building for them. My site is www.magickartifacts.com Tim's is www.darkforestmagic.com
Message: Posted by: Eddie Garland (Sep 8, 2018 09:27PM)
Hate seeing that empty closet of a crooked website online again.
OutLaw can not provide most what is offered on those pages.
Message: Posted by: Cleverpaws (Sep 8, 2018 09:59PM)
Most items on that site have no “buy it now” button, and the ones that do when you click on PayPal it says “something went wrong”.
Message: Posted by: Chris Meece (Feb 9, 2019 12:00AM)
I spent many a day salivating over some of the effects on this site. I believe my most coveted was the Cabinet de los Muertos. Maybe I will pick up one second hand, down the road.

I traded my Spiritus Magnus for a Fiji Mermaid and a few other items recently and even though I checked off a bucket list item, I miss it daily.
Message: Posted by: Lo Pan (Feb 9, 2019 12:37AM)
Your not alone
Message: Posted by: tbsmith918 (Feb 9, 2019 07:06AM)
[quote]On Sep 3, 2018, chrisnet wrote:
Outlaw's site is back and they have a lot of my effects shown, but I am not building anything for them. I also know that Tim is not building for Outlaw either. Outlaw uses the name "Doctor X" so they can keep up appearances without anyone knowing that I have left and am no longer building for them. My site is www.magickartifacts.com Tim's is www.darkforestmagic.com [/quote]
I don't know if it's just my browser (Safari on a MacBook Pro) or if perhaps it is intentional, but the MAGICK Artifacts site won't allow me to click on any of the items (or videos)...all of the "Read all about it" buttons appear to be disabled...for me at least.
Message: Posted by: aligator (Feb 14, 2019 12:43PM)
I have not received any newsletters as well.
Message: Posted by: gothicmagic (Feb 14, 2019 09:13PM)
TBSmith it works on my chrome via windows