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Topic: Paypal refunds for counterfeit items
Message: Posted by: marc_carrion (Jun 4, 2018 06:30AM)
I bought an item from a member in this forum that turned out to be counterfeit. I'm not going to blame the member of the Café, he may had bought in good faith, and thought it was authentic when he sold it to me. But first he asked me to pay with friends and family, or to send more money to cover for the paypal fee (which I did). When I told him that the product was not original, he refused to send me a full refund and wanted me to cover not only the paypal fees, but his shipping and my shipping back too (that's what he considered 'reasonable'. I'm glad I paid for the protection fee.

Anyhow... be careful with Paypal, they don't have any provisions for counterfeit items, they still require you to ship it back to the seller, and make sure you insure it, because if it gets lost, they seller will still get his money.
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/forums/searchpage/tab/message?advanced=false&allow_punctuation=false&filter=location&location=category:en&q=counterfeit

Paypal requests for you to ship the item back may also put you in risk of breaking federal laws, as you are shipping a counterfeit item, and that's against Federal laws (maybe some lawyer can point us here to the right resource), but it seems that has been Paypal policy and it's unlikely to change. I wish Paypal changed the policy on counterfeit items just like wish.com is doing, if you prove the item is not original, they refund the money right away.

My two cents right now are:
- Make sure you ask for pictures of items that you are not sure.
- Always ship with insurance
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Jun 4, 2018 07:07AM)
Marc;

First PayPal has a program that will pay up to $30.00 for the return shipping; you can contact PayPal for details.

Secondly, you file a claim as “not as described” and not refer to it as “counterfeit” you are protected by PayPal’s insurance. IE, if you purchased a Wellington Head Chopper and did not receive a Wellington Head Chopper, the chopper is not as described and you will be protected.by PayPal return policy
Message: Posted by: marc_carrion (Jun 4, 2018 07:29AM)
[quote]On Jun 4, 2018, Howie Diddot wrote:
Marc;

First PayPal has a program that will pay up to $30.00 for the return shipping; you can contact PayPal for details.

Secondly, you file a claim as “not as described” and not refer to it as “counterfeit” you are protected by PayPal’s insurance. IE, if you purchased a Wellington Head Chopper and did not receive a Wellington Head Chopper, the chopper is not as described and you will be protected.by PayPal return policy [/quote]

That's what I did, but USPS lost the package and could not deliver it. Paypal said that if the package was not delivered in 10 days, they need to release the money to the buyer. USPS Tracking showed the package in Transit after two eeks from shipping date. The item has been delivered back now, and I filled an appeal with Paypal, and got my money back.

I paid for my side of the shipping... the cost of a lesson learned. But it would be nice to know about that program from Paypal regarding the shipping, no one on the phone told me, and I talked to five different people. Is there any link that explains that program?
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Jun 4, 2018 07:34AM)
Https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/what-is-return-shipping-on-us-and-how-do-i-activate-it-faq3544
Message: Posted by: marc_carrion (Jun 4, 2018 07:47AM)
Thanks Howie, this is what is needed (I have the receipt, with the cost, and seller's zip, but not full address, and I did not take a picture):
Upload document(s) that show:
• return shipping costs and
• the seller's address
Required
•Receipt from the courier with the seller’s shipping address
or
• Photo of package with seller’s address visible
Additional
If the document uploaded doesn’t show how much it cost to return the item, you can also upload the receipt showing return shipping paid.

So, for anyone next time :)

I'm not going to name the seller, I reported the issue to the moderators. If you have an issue with someone, report it too, if they get more that one complain about a seller, they will do something, but my complain alone does not mean anything. His other items may be good.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Jun 4, 2018 07:48AM)
I sold an item that was not legit and I did not know it. I did not ask the buyer to return it, I asked him to destroy it and throw it in the trash. Howie is right about the not as described.
Why would a seller want something back that is not legit.

I only sell on ebay anymore. That way the Buyer and Seller are covered both under PayPal and Ebay.

The seller is also NOT allowed by PayPal TOS to charge you for any PayPal fees. Those are his responsibility and can get his account revoked just by him asking/demanding it.

There are a lot of China ripoffs flowing through the Café, some are unaware of what they have and some know darn well. But again there are some China pieces that are legit
that are based on contract breaches by the creator who did not meet his demand of his order which gives the manufacturer the right to reproduce the items until the the contract
is fulfilled. This is happening a lot with creators. They order the max to get the lowest price for production and then can not meet the contract. This happens in the US as well.

The blatant rip offs are usually crap, the higher quality items are usually the actual item that the creator was having manufactured.

Jake Jr.
Message: Posted by: inigmntoya (Jun 4, 2018 10:10AM)
There is no reason to ask anyone to pay for "paypal fees" -- just factor it into your asking price.
Personally, I steer clear of anyone asking me to pay as "friends and family" - most are probably just trying to save a little $, but it's what true scammers do as you lose all rights with PayPal by doing so -- you've told PayPal that you gifted someone money, not bought anything from them.
Message: Posted by: D_avid (Jun 4, 2018 10:13AM)
My question would be how do you know it's counterfeit vs a defective piece? I am not the seller, but merely curious. If it's defective there is a different course of action I would have taken. Paypal is trying their hardest to not consider themselves a bank, however there are guidelines they too must follow.
Message: Posted by: marc_carrion (Jun 4, 2018 10:15AM)
Hi D_avid, the product was not even close to the original.
Message: Posted by: D_avid (Jun 4, 2018 10:18AM)
Gotcha :)

If you used a credit or debit card through Paypal, regardless what Paypal says you are still covered under credit/debit card regulations. Good luck!
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jun 4, 2018 10:19AM)
I have had a suspected situation, as well. I mentioned it to the seller and he didn't seem to agree so I just chalked it off to experience.
Message: Posted by: marc_carrion (Jun 4, 2018 10:20AM)
I need to do that next time, I actually leave money from things I sell in Paypal and then pay with my balance, but I think you are right, it would be better to pay with my Amex, and then file the claim with them directly.
Message: Posted by: tonsofquestions (Jun 4, 2018 11:49AM)
You absolutely can get a refund if it's counterfeit.

BrotherJeffrey had a great story where he found a Chinese seller offering knock-offs of his Traveler wallet, so he bought *all* of them, filed a claim (he's clearly an expert on which are real/fake), and then got all his money back!
Message: Posted by: marc_carrion (Jun 4, 2018 11:51AM)
Not through Paypal :) he probably got the refund through the Credit Card company.
Message: Posted by: tonsofquestions (Jun 4, 2018 06:05PM)
[quote]On Jun 4, 2018, marc_carrion wrote:
Not through Paypal :) he probably got the refund through the Credit Card company. [/quote]

Not according to him: http://www.magicconvention.com/20-20-hindsight/jeff-copeland-piracy-profit/ It's around 5:20.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Jun 4, 2018 07:14PM)
[quote]On Jun 4, 2018, tonsofquestions wrote:
[quote]On Jun 4, 2018, marc_carrion wrote:
Not through Paypal :) he probably got the refund through the Credit Card company. [/quote]

Not according to him: http://www.magicconvention.com/20-20-hindsight/jeff-copeland-piracy-profit/ It's around 5:20. [/quote]

I don’t understand... to get the refund he had to return the wallets to the seller... PayPal does not allow you to get a refund and keep the items purchased, if that were the case, I’d buy everything from Hocus Pocus and file a claim then get a refund
Message: Posted by: marc_carrion (Jun 4, 2018 07:22PM)
I meet him in North Carolina last year, and I think it was through his credit card, not through paypal. Or through eBay (payment with Paypal) but not directly with Paypal. If you pay someone through Paypal and ask a for a refund through Paypal, they need for you to return the items before issuing the refund.
Message: Posted by: D_avid (Jun 4, 2018 09:04PM)
As of 04/18 counterfeit items do not need to be returned to qualify for a credit card/debit card dispute. Paypal is not a bank and not subject to regulations E and Z. Sad but true.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Jun 4, 2018 10:21PM)
[quote]On Jun 4, 2018, D_avid wrote:
As of 04/18 counterfeit items do not need to be returned to qualify for a credit card/debit card dispute. Paypal is not a bank and not subject to regulations E and Z. Sad but true. [/quote]


So what prevents me from claiming everything is counterfeit and keeping the trick and having the funds returned?
Message: Posted by: tonsofquestions (Jun 5, 2018 03:54AM)
[quote]On Jun 4, 2018, Howie Diddot wrote:
So what prevents me from claiming everything is counterfeit and keeping the trick and having the funds returned? [/quote]

A number of things. Honesty and not being a cheat, for one.
But also the frequency of times you do it, and to whom.
If you, as a buyer (B) report seller (S), they probably ask for proof from both sides. (I imagine Jeff had an easy time with that, being the creator.)
If S has had lots of previous reports, then they probably give B the benefit of the doubt. But if they're someone with thousands of orders (e.g. Penguin), it seems more suspect.
if B starts reporting things as counterfeit too often, then that becomes pretty suspicious, and I imagine the burden of proof becomes higher.

So if you bought a ton of items and reported them all as counterfeit, Paypal would probably say "sorry, go away", not refund you, and maybe even shut down your account.

As far as returning the item goes, I'm not certain. I suspect it has something to do with the cost vs shipping amounts, and maybe how counterfeit the item is.
As a related example: if you report it as damaged/broken, they very well may not require you to send it back, but might need more proof.

So it doesn't seem like that far of a stretch to say "I'm the creator, these are counterfeit, and I'm not sending them back to be resold to someone else." Or perhaps there were enough reports of problems that they decided the seller didn't deserve to get the knock-offs back.

I'm entirely hypothesizing here, but it is a plausible scenario.
Message: Posted by: marc_carrion (Jun 6, 2018 08:32AM)
I was going to buy another product from a member that is listing it in the for sale section. First thing he asked me is to send friends and family. I told him I'm not longer interested. If we all did that we would stop with this non-sense. I'm reporting him to Paypal. He has more items to sell too.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Jun 6, 2018 11:02AM)
I do not send funds through “Friends & Family” for purchases for two reasons.

First, I lose all PayPal protection if the deal goes sideways

Secondary, PayPal provides a very important service protecting buyers and selllers from scams and fraud while keeping personal information safe, they deserve to be paid for the service they provide, avoiding the fees due PayPal is stealing.

I am constantly reading posts on the Café about magicians being upset and ranting on the subject of ripping off original illusions, but for some reason it’s OK to rip off PayPal, as long as they can make a few more bucks.
Message: Posted by: marc_carrion (Jun 6, 2018 11:06AM)
100% agree Howie. I only send friends and family to actual friends or family. I backed off my offer for the product, I don't want to deal with someone with questionable morals. For the price of the product ($25) the paypal fee is just over one dollar. In the previous case (that started this thread) I sent the extra dollar to cover the fees, in this case, I'm just not dealing with someone that asks for that.
Message: Posted by: stempleton (Jun 6, 2018 03:59PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2018, marc_carrion wrote:
I was going to buy another product from a member that is listing it in the for sale section. First thing he asked me is to send friends and family. I told him I'm not longer interested. If we all did that we would stop with this non-sense. I'm reporting him to Paypal. He has more items to sell too. [/quote]

I had a similar incident with a member, where I thought the price was too high on an item. I asked if he would lower it slightly, which he agreed to do, as long as I would send payment as "friends and family." What bothered me was his screen name indicated he might be a pastor, but I could be completely wrong on that. I often see items from him I would like to have, but I always pass.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 7, 2018 08:55AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2018, Howie Diddot wrote:
I do not send funds through “Friends & Family” for purchases for two reasons.

First, I lose all PayPal protection if the deal goes sideways

Secondary, PayPal provides a very important service protecting buyers and selllers from scams and fraud while keeping personal information safe, they deserve to be paid for the service they provide, avoiding the fees due PayPal is stealing.

I am constantly reading posts on the Café about magicians being upset and ranting on the subject of ripping off original illusions, but for some reason it’s OK to rip off PayPal, as long as they can make a few more bucks. [/quote]

Yes this is the essence of it all. PayPal should be compensated for the service.

People often want to demand their protection offered while ripping them off. It is an odd thing.
Message: Posted by: kardistic (Dec 26, 2018 02:12PM)
I didn't have an experience with counterfeit items, but I always get my full refund inc. shipping and paypal fees.
Message: Posted by: Psyfl (Dec 26, 2018 04:02PM)
You don't actually lose ALL protection when sending money with the "friends and family" option. It is still possible to open a dispute and reclaim your money, which I have done in the past, but of course you're less likely to succeed and I would of course recommend avoiding the situation.
Message: Posted by: kardistic (Jan 3, 2019 07:16PM)
[quote]On Dec 26, 2018, Psyfl wrote:
You don't actually lose ALL protection when sending money with the "friends and family" option. It is still possible to open a dispute and reclaim your money, which I have done in the past, but of course you're less likely to succeed and I would of course recommend avoiding the situation. [/quote]

Yea you are still protected with the "friends and family" option, but it's possible to get your money back in case you didn't make the transaction, but someone else ... so unless you are going to lie about that there's is no chance
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Jan 3, 2019 09:54PM)
[quote]On Dec 26, 2018, kardistic wrote:
I didn't have an experience with counterfeit items, but I always get my full refund inc. shipping and paypal fees. [/quote]

Why are you getting a refund of PayPal fees? You don't pay fees as a buyer?