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Topic: Would a real cheat write this?
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Apr 30, 2004 03:23AM)
I don't know if someone is being sarcastic, or showing off or just arrogant here. I was looking for reviews and tables of contents for "Phantoms Of The Cardtable" and this is a review someone wrote, I laughed because of it. :D

I would like to tell who ever might be interested in gambling to buy this book. This book is really a 10 on a scale of 1 - 5. I know this to be true because I've been a student of Walter Scott for over 13 years now and I'm the real thing. Next to Gazzo, I'm the best at this technique.

Steve Forte whose the best all around cheat in the country wrote in this book that he has never seen anyone do Walter Scotts punch deal in play until he met me. Since this book was already in the process of being published when he actually saw me do this technique, he couldn't change his statement.

I'm the only known gambler today who actually uses Walters technique in play. Don't get me wrong, other cheats do this move but they do not use Walter Scotts Punch or Technique.

So I said all that to say this, since I'm one of the top 10 cheats in the country and I'm living Walter Scotts life at the moment (as "The New Phantom of the Card Table)," you can take it from me, everything that he says about cheating and the life we live in this book is true.

I'm sorry to say that this book is so good and informative that I don't want you to buy it because of what I do for a living; but hey, it has to be told that this is an excellent and I mean excellent book. If you cheat, you want this book on your shelf as part of your gambling collection.

I'm going on record to date and saying that if anyone doesn't like this book after reading it and doesn't think that this is true, you don't know what real gambling is


Dealer of Cards

The New "Phantom of the Card Table" Has Spoken

Do you guys think a real cheat would
a. know himself to be one of the best in the country
b. show off about it?
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Apr 30, 2004 03:29AM)
Doc is absolutely the real thing. He's a funny guy, and no doubt you've caught him tooting his own horn a bit, but make no mistake, he's for real.

A few of us on this site have seen him work, and he does some things better than almost anyone else in the world.

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Apr 30, 2004 06:31AM)
I have had correspondence with Doc (or Dice Or Cards, as I knew it) before. Now I've never seen him or met him, but he is very knowledgeable and has helped me out a lot. He used to post video clips of some of his moves - until some one downloaded them and posted them elsewhere, against his expressed wishes. They were very good moves. I'm convinced that he's exactly what he says he is. Why? Because of detailed advice that he's provided me with on things like 2nd deals, etc. I go back to those notes all the time.

Doc tells it exactly like he sees it, which sometimes leads to clashes on other web boards, but he always keeps things interesting, and always helps people out when he can by offering advice, notes, etc.

I haven't heard from him for a while, so I hope he's ok! I was just wondering if he'd pop back around on the 'net sometime soon. I hope he didn't get caught, though I doubt he did.

Among other things, Doc is certainly a unique person!

T. Joseph O'Malley
Message: Posted by: ASW (Apr 30, 2004 06:40AM)
One of the best in the world.

(I wish he'd stay away from magicians).

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Apr 30, 2004 06:54AM)
(I think maybe you're getting your wish, George!)

He was good to magicians on some other boards and lists, but then someone stabbed him in the back by downloading some of his c__d de__ moves and posting them elsewhere. After he'd told people not to do so. Idiots. Haven't heard from him much since then.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Apr 30, 2004 07:10AM)
What is the book he is talking about?

Cheers for help
Message: Posted by: JordanB (Apr 30, 2004 07:16AM)
I read that too and thought it was a little strange to be honest. Is Walter Scott even still alive? If you guys know him, what region is he from...ie Pacific NW, Midwestern, etc..
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Apr 30, 2004 07:22AM)
I won't tell you where Doc is from. He might not want people to know.

Walter Scott is not alive so it doesn't really matter where he was from because you won't find him anymore.

The book is "Phantoms of the Card Table" by Gazzo/Britland, not to be confused with the original "Phantom of the Card Table" penned by Eddie McGuire (sp?). Actually the title was mentioned in the first post...I'd recommend reading it in order to follow this thread accurately.

I cannot recommend this book enough (well both books).
Message: Posted by: Welshwizard (Apr 30, 2004 07:46AM)
Phantoms of the Card Table is a brilliant book, even without the techniques at the end.
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Apr 30, 2004 07:47AM)
This book's on my huge "to buy" list :D
But I thought it was kind of strange to see this.
I thought cheats didn't want to be known, this guy seems like searching for attention.
Message: Posted by: JordanB (Apr 30, 2004 09:37AM)
I'm not doubting his credibility, just it was a very strange thing to see on the Amazon web site. I was thinking maybe he was a foreigner or from somewhere with a heavy accent like Texas or New England because of the wording of some of the sentences. The book was a very enjoyable read. I like reading about Vernon and it gave a lot of info about Vernon that I thought was interesting.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Apr 30, 2004 09:40AM)
He's an odd duck, that's for sure.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Apr 30, 2004 09:42AM)
Keep in mind that while you're probably correct about cheats not wanting to be known, do you know what Doc looks like? Do you know his real name? Do you know where he lives? He's still unknown to you and most people out there. Heck I've had correspondence with him several times and I still don't know what he looks like. I *think* I know his real name but who can be sure?
Message: Posted by: Reis O'Brien (Apr 30, 2004 10:49AM)
So I take it that his glowing comments on his own skills are being said a bit tounge-in-cheek? Or is this guy really bragging? Having the skills is one thing, letting everyone know you have the skills is another... and letting everyone know you have the skills GRACEFULLY is even more! Just wondering.
Message: Posted by: LeConte (Apr 30, 2004 03:07PM)
As a working cheater just how often do you get to bask in any kind of glory for your success? You would wind up dead most likely. Some stray post on the Internet seems like a good way to "toot your own horn" a bit as it were in relative safety. Besides, DOC only claims to be one of the ten best so that leaves room for many other great unknown cheats to join him at the world championships of card cheating.
Message: Posted by: ursusminor (Apr 30, 2004 07:03PM)
True or not - Bragging or not -

Now I HAVE to get that book!

Message: Posted by: Mike Walton (Apr 30, 2004 09:47PM)
Either way the guy is a cheat and being a cheat doesn't lend credibility to his word and specificially to his review of a book. If he wants to hide in the shadows, then that's fine but until he's credible, his words are just a spiel from a used car saleman.
Message: Posted by: Partizan (May 1, 2004 12:17AM)
Mmmmm, a credible cheat. Now there's one I gotta see.

His review made me laugh, and if people are backing up that he has the moves then good for him.

Btw. I made number 14 on the top 10 pokemon cheat all timers.
Message: Posted by: Elknase (May 1, 2004 06:04PM)
Do you guys think a real cheat would
a. know himself to be one of the best in the country
b. show off about it?

Probably only if he is about to retire from the cheating business or being convinced that he is 'The New Phantom of the Card Table' ó his identity not being revealed to the public. That is, the public will neither identify him nor get a chance to perceive that they have been fleeced by 'the phantom' when they played a little game of poker.

Given D.O.C. is about to retire, he might write a book about his expertise and experiences from the world of cheating or do some consulting business in the casino world.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 1, 2004 06:27PM)
It's a nice literary pose.

Much like Mrs Mary Shelly wrote 'Frankenstein' under as Anonymous.

As to the veracity of ANY competent cheat writing ANYTHING about what they do... please... that is just too funny. Have you noticed that even the reformed hackers never write about exactly how their old code worked, and instead just use vague metaphors like 'virus' and 'trojan' and 'worm'. So it is, and so it was. The folks who write exposes are almost always wannabes. Not that what they write is anything less than entertaining and perhaps thought provoking... just less than exact and accurate in terms of how the stuff REALLY happens.

So, who else suspects 'expert at the card table' was written by a temperance leader writing from notes taken from confessions of broken gamblers?
Message: Posted by: Tony Noice (May 1, 2004 06:45PM)
As usual, your post is literate and stimulating.
Message: Posted by: Elknase (May 2, 2004 07:30AM)
Very good point. But that doesn't mean that a former cheat is not for real because a book doesn't expose everything about his expertise.

A successful cheat will probably not have the motivation to write an expose, except the 'expose' is part of a successful scam or he is about to retire with the idea to make some money with an expose containing just enough material to make it sell.
Message: Posted by: Chris Keppel (May 2, 2004 02:18PM)
Here is the way I look at it. When you think you're the best, you normally are not. There is always going to be someone better, tougher, more good looking, better at sports, has a nice car, etc. It's a big statement to say "I'm the best in the country." I'm suprised with that attitude he didn't say the best in the world. I haven't seen his stuff but I have indeed heard of him. Yes I heard some good stuff, but that doesn't mean go around trying to portray yourself as the MAN. If that's the way he wants people to look at him, as he is good, you're not, then that's cool. Let him enjoy his time of fame, if that what you want to call it.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 21, 2004 07:09PM)
Hello Mr. Jason England. This is Doc. how are you doing? I hope all is well with you and your family and thanks for hooking me up with Damien Namen (to those who donít know Ė the writer and director of the movie "Shade.")

Gentlemen at this forum who don't think that I can back up what I say, just put some money on the table and play me; and as you walk away broke all you're going to hear me saying in a small still voice to the onlookers, "And the Legend Continues".

You call me a wanna be but I'm not, I am an "I am." I posted that review because once I place my signature on it (recommending it) you can rest assured that you can take that to the bank. I've met some of the top card men in the country that spoke at this forum like Wesley James, Darwin O, Andrew W, and others who may not Gene Maze, Frank Garcia, Doug Edwards, Harry Lorayne, Tony Mouley, Ken Krenzel, Herb Zarrow, Meir Yedid, David Ben, Mark Mitton, Bill Kalush, Russel T. Barnhart, Vinny Sabbatino, Briant (last name not known), Carl Polaris, David Ferst, Sal Piacente, Ricky Jay and his managers, Darwin Ortiz (from his books) and a host of others who names I can't remember from Reubin's (NYC) who have been my teachers over the years.

My newest teachers in the last 2 years have been Sal Piacente, Rod the Hop, Jason England (he taught me stuff over the phone), the famous Andrew Wimhurst (who is the best middle dealer I know with the Kennedy Grip Variant), Darwin Ortiz, Allan Ackerman, Damien Namen, Sam Case from his notes, Dr. X - Terri Roses, John Radford, Walter Scott (from The Phantom of the Card Table Book(s), a host of hustlers throughout this country who I will not name), soon to be Paul Wilson and the most talented of us all and the best I've ever seen Mr. Steve Forte. If I was good before meeting these guys with no gambling help, imagine what Iím going to be like after I study what they taught me.

So any of you who doubt my skills or want to go up against me, I just wanted to let you know that you will be going up against part of each and everyone of these guys who were my teachers throughout my life except soon to be Paul Wison. As far as Cold Decking, I might be "the best in the world." So if you thought that I was blowing off steam as far as my punch dealing technique, well the pipes just busted with my Vanishing Dice Switching Move and My Cold Deck Move(s).

Andrew, regarding your statement about staying away from the magicians, the magicians are my friends even though some are correct when they said that I toot my horn, if I didn't, you would have never heard of me... There's a method to my madness.

Andrew, if I did what you said, I would have never met you (one of my teachers) through Darwin nor the other experts like Jason England, Damien Namen and so on... I can't excel without the help of ya'll. Most may not know the pschology behind gambling but like someone said that doesn't mean that they don't know how to execute the moves.

If I've offended any of my teachers such as those I've named in my previous posting, I very much apologize and please forgive me.

Message: Posted by: rawdawg (May 22, 2004 01:36AM)

...how much is the buy in?
Message: Posted by: J Wessmiller (May 22, 2004 04:06AM)
You are a lucky man Doc. Any plans for publishing anything? Also, can you give us additional recommendations for literature? I remember reading that post on amazon, and it infulenced me to purchase the book.
Take Care,
J. Wess
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 22, 2004 04:20AM)
I just posted something on the Strike Second if you care to read it. Thanks for your comment. I'm not all that; I'm just a regular guy if you get to know me who wants to help. You took my Phantoms of the Table comment just the way I want everyone to; just to influence you to buy the book (not to brag) if you're a gambler or intend to be.

As far as books are concerned, there are things that I know but not allowed to tell or post because it was given to me in strict confidence by the world's best cheats, some of whom you already know or heard of. This is why when you read my stuff you will see comments from some of the best telling me to shut up in a polite way and don't give out too much info.

In a nutshell I'm just pre-advertising.

Thanks for writing me.

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: marmaduke (May 22, 2004 05:03AM)
Welcome Doc.
I always admire fellow egomaniacs. If someone brags that they are the best in the world I usually find that they are just exactly that.
Remember Cassius Clay?

Furthermore anything that upsets magicians has to be a very good thing indeed.
I always approve of it.
I have an odd sense of humour.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 22, 2004 05:17AM)
Hey Marmaduke how ya doing. You know I had to give you a shout for writing me and not thinking that I was a nutcase. I need all the friends that I can get.

I just want to know one thing, how did you know I was a maniac? I don't think I told that to any one except when I was arguing with myself.

Thanks for writing

Your New Friend


Hey Tom this is Doc, we have to talk about this connection that you got. I have some connections that are great but some items that I want or want made, I can't get. I have to get my funds together first.

Thanks for writing

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: lonewolf (May 22, 2004 06:28AM)
Hey Doc,

How did you get the good fortune to learn from so many masters?

And conversely, if there was someone who really wants to learn, would you consider taking him under your tutelage?

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 22, 2004 10:07AM)
Hey Lonewolf how are you doing this morning, fine I hope. To answer your first question I live in NYC and all the famous magicians used to hang out at a Restaurant called Reubenís. I was always a magician since early childhood so I knew where to go for help.

John Scarne wrote in his book, Scarne on Cards (I don't remember where) that if you want to learn how to cheat, go to the magicians and I did. What I learned from the books helped but the moves looked horrible compared to how I do them now and I thought I was good. LOL

Wesley James, Gene Maze, Doug Edwards and Carl Polaris took me under their wing and directed me. As I practiced, every week I had to come back and show them that I learned what they taught me in order to go to the next stage and so on and so on. As time went on other magicians that I mentioned previously started helping me. So I was like a karate student learning from different Shaolin Monks; all was great and is still great in their own way but stubborn to the fact that their technique was the best. What I did is not say anything and completed my training and after I learned from them all, I merged all their techniques and developed my style, Doc Can Do.

Would I teach? Yes and No. Yes if the price was right, but I don't think that you can afford my price so No. Why? You don't know how many endless nights we work on moves that you read in books that don't work in card games. Studying wrong techniques and then having to unlearn them, inventing new ones, meeting people, buying stuff that doesn't work to invent stuff that doesn't work, flying to different states to meet cheats and hustlers and learn. Kissing butts that you don't want to just to learn, buying camcorders to video tape moves, getting stranded in places, staying at cheesy hotels in God forsaken places, and paying extra money on a plane because your bag is too heavy with equipment you bought that doesn't work. Traveling on foot through the 1996 worse snow storm to meet a dice cheat, getting robbed, going home broke every night cause the moves you learned from the books don't work and learning from your mistakes. This is why I know that Walter Scott was the real thing and why I recommend Gazzoís book The Phantoms of the Card Table because Iím living the life Walter lived and talked about.

You want the easy road and even though there is one, us teaching you, we can't because us top cheats know how hard we had to work to get where we at today. You just canít give this information away like a magic trick. This is why our cheating moves are so secret and why this area of magic, even the magicians donít want you to know about. This is why you will read periodically (I wish he'd stay away from magicians). This is a secret society of the elite in which I am a newbie.

Youíve read what I did to get to this point, follow it.

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: lonewolf (May 22, 2004 02:40PM)
Hey thanks Doc,

It's a great read. I guess the journey's still long then, for me and maybe for you.

Best wishes for your magical journey. Hope our paths may cross sometime.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 22, 2004 02:49PM)
Just out of curiosity here...

How many folks play cards for money? Cheating makes sense when there is something to win.

So, do you play cards for money? Would you cheat if you could?
Message: Posted by: in flames (May 22, 2004 03:16PM)
Wow Doc, that's great insite. The journey you took to get to where you are today and the !@#$ you went through. Talk about dedication. You just opened my eyes to make me realize what it takes. I have one question if you would care to answer please? How many hours a day and days of the week did you actually practice (I'm sure the answer is all day, everyday, but I'll ask anyway)? Thanks man
Message: Posted by: truthteller (May 22, 2004 03:59PM)

I think we may have met. Were you hanging around Rueben's in the early 90's? Gene Maze may have introduced us. If so you actually taught me a LOT those two afternoons. And if you are who I am thinking of, I will concur that even then you could do things that I, at that point in my magical life, found completely flabergasting.

If that was you, thank you for the lesson!

Brad Henderson
Message: Posted by: lonewolf (May 22, 2004 05:47PM)
I play cards for money, and no I don't cheat.

I used to control the odd ace to the top while in games when I was younger and just started out in magic. But never in games for real money.

Nowadays as I get better and know more moves I don't even think about it at all. "Can't use our powers for evil" as one of my magic friends always says. Hah
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 22, 2004 05:54PM)
Hey truthteller it was me at Rueben's that you met and Gene Maze was my teacher at that time before he moved to Cali. How have you been doing, fine I hope. I'm always glad to see that someone knows me even though honestly I don't remember you at the moment. Hey it's been 14 years. I have just been re-introduced to Sal Piacente after all that time by Steve Forte. I probably would remember you if I saw you though.

Guess what? I'm even better now (smile)

Thanks for remembering me. I wish you and your family all the happiness and please tell these guys at this forum that I'm not as arrogant as my writing may show.

Thanks in advance for your help

Your Friend


Posted: May 22, 2004 6:58pm

To Whom This May Apply

Hey **** thanks for writing me. I don't want the people here to think that I'm stuck on myself especially nice guys like you. I just don't want anyone stealing my glory and then put out my moves on video and say that they invented it.

I'm just a straightforward guy. I hold no punches because the life of these guys is in my hands. I'm not a smooth talker; I tell it like I see it. I teach the bible and I've found out that friends don't lie to friends and if they do, they are really not your friends. Also, if I post the same garbage thatís already posted by wanna-be-card detectives and magicians what would lend to the credibility of what Iím saying.

I would respect you more if you say Doc I'm all right with Blacks but my friends aren't. That would hurt my feelings but it might save my life, likewise when I spoke on The Phantoms of the Card Table book, I was just stating that I don't know anybody that deal the punch deal with so small of a bump than myself and as fast. So if I don't explain my ability how can you trust me to evaluate this book's credibility of Walter's Punch Deal?

People take what I say the wrong way, I'm only here to help and I don't tickle the ears with stuff they want to hear most of the time so they think that I'm arrogant when I'm not; well at least I don't think I am. Direct and being straightforward is not being arrogant. I'm here to shorten the road to Utopia instead of having everybody take the long road in which they are already being directed. I wish someone had done it for me. So this is why I'm trying to treat others the way I wanted to be treated when I was learning.

Please tell Darwin that I said hello and that I would like to come and revisit him again. If you're a friend of Darwin, youíre a friend of mineÖ

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: Tielie (May 22, 2004 06:47PM)
Wow very intersting to hear from the man I was talking about himself! I just want to say to you I have so much respect for the practice devoted to cheating. You have to work hard for your money, with all the practice. I really appreciate the dedication. Thanks for the inspiration.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (May 22, 2004 07:02PM)
On 2004-05-22 15:49, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Just out of curiosity here...

How many folks play cards for money? Cheating makes sense when there is something to win.

So, do you play cards for money? Would you cheat if you could?

I play. Small stakes, a hundred or so at the most. I frequent a lot of seedy bars and can always find a late night hold 'em game. Ever since ESPN came out with their WSOP show, there's seems to be a deluge of rookies who love to say, "All in". I play above the board as I am trying to get my game stronger. I do, however, take advantages when they are presented to me. Nearly every game I've been in, there are always a few guys who constantly expose cards during the shuffle. Some guys peek their cards in such a way I can read them off their beer bottles, glasses, etc.. Also, cards get bent and are easily tracked.

At the moment, I have only cheated during strip poker games.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 22, 2004 07:58PM)
Hey In flames how are you doing and thanks for writing me. I used to practice 6 to 7 hours a day for about 5 to 6 days a week; sometimes longer because as you know I didn't have job. If I didn't cheat, I didn't eat and those 6 baby kids and my wife didn't want to hear it.

Can you imagine practing wrong moves for all those hours, days and sometimes years and then when you finally see the correct way, you have to start all over again and forget bad habits like dropping the side fingers when you bottom deal. I know 4 different middle deals and then Andrew Winhurst shows up, shows me his and blows mine right out the box. Aww man now I got to start all over again learning to regrip the deck in another position. You can see Andrew's video "The Card Artistry of Andrew Wimhurst" Now guess what, I now heard about Paul Wilson's, will it ever stop!

I know what I'll do, I'll Cold Deck the whole table and give everybody a hand and I don't have to worry about seconds, centers or bottoms.

Cheatin Ain't Easy

One more thing before I go, If you think cheating is easy imagine you reaching the status that you always wanted and now that you've gotten lazy in practicing, Steve Forte comes along and shows you moves that's 10 times better than he has on his 4 part gambling series tapes. Here I go starting all over again.

To all who may be interested, Sal Piacente (My Card Memory Teacher) and Steve Forte (The Best Over all Mechanic I've ever witness) are my teacher's now.

Watch out world you'll soon be having a Broke Steve Forte Clone who will remember everything except how to get back to the Magic Cafť.

I hope that this info. helped you.

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (May 23, 2004 12:19AM)
Hi Doc,

Gang Doc is the real deal!
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (May 23, 2004 12:21AM)
You sure have lots of "teachers"...
Message: Posted by: lchemist (May 23, 2004 01:02AM)
Hi Doc:

Thank you for your review of "The Phantoms..." it prompted me to buy the book.

Less than 12 bucks (at Amazon)for such a wonderful book is a real steal.

Once again, thank you.

Your friend,

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 23, 2004 01:07AM)
Hey Mr. Bishop how are you and your family doing? I hope all is well with you and them. Now that that's out of the way.

Forum: If ya'll think Doc is bad now, wait until one of my new teachers which is Mr. Bishop who will be appearing at the Magic Castle comes out with his new card cheating video and I'm gonna be even better.

Mr. Bishop thanks for the confirmation, I need all the help I can get.

Your Friend


Jive-Turkey wrote:

[quote]Either way the guy is a cheat and being a cheat doesnít lend credibility to his word and specifically to his review of a book.[/quote]

Who other than a cheat would use this technique? Answer this question to the forum
So who other than a cheat can explain it?

I would bet my life there is not a post at this forum explaining the exact detail to detail of the technique used to make this item.

Did you read what Steve Forte wrote regarding the punch work in Final Thoughts? Ė He wrote a lot and didnít tell you one thing. Why? No one cheater knows everything about everything. We all have our specialties and this was not one of his.

I know most of the best card cheats in this country (some who are at this site) and they can't do the moves let alone feel my punch work.

Do you punch deal?
Can you make one?
How big should it be?
What supplies do you need to make one?
Can it be put on in the process of a game?
Where do you hit the card?
How hard do you hit the card?
How big should the indentation be?
How big should your bump be?
Should the indentation penetrate the card?
Is the bump and the indentation the same thing?
At what point do you feel the bump?
Does the thumb ever lifts off the card and if so at what point?
What size point should your needle be?
Should you use type B or S?
What do type B or S mean?
What's the best needle to buy?
Which is the longest lasting needle?
What does moisture do when youíre dealing the bump?
Should you wet your thumb to solve this problem?
What two solutions quickly alleviate the problem of dealing in moisture?
Should you use punch work on old cards?
Do punch work work on Kem Cards and if so does the same punch that work on regular cards work on Kem Cards?
Should you use punch B or S on Kem Cards or none of the above?
What's the best position to sit when you're playing the bump?
How long does the bump last 2, 3, 4 hours or the life of the cards or do it disappear?

Iím Doc and doc comes from the Latin word docco which means to teach. This is where we get our word teacher from. It denotes the act of teaching and the subject taught. You have just been taught.

To the other readers:

So like I said in my review of ďThe Phantoms of the Card TableĒ Iím the only known gambler today who actually uses Walterís technique in play. Don't get me wrong, other cheats do this move but they do not use Walter Scotts Punch or Technique.

So I said all that to say this, since Iím one of the top 10 cheats in the country and Iím living Walter Scotts life at this moment (as "The New Phantom of the Card Table"), you can take it from me that everything he says about cheating and the life we live in this book is true.
Message: Posted by: in flames (May 23, 2004 01:13AM)
Doc, Thanks for answering my question (and then some). You're a champ. I have Sals DVDs and I love them! He's a great teacher. I also took your advice and purchased "POTCT" book. Thanks. You mention learning the moves wrong, which I have definately done. What DVDs would you recommend that would show (in your opinion) the right way.
Thanks bro.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 23, 2004 01:32AM)
Hey Luis how are you doing? I appreciate you writing me. Thanks.

I'm glad that you took my review into consideration and not prejudge me on my comments when purchasing the book. I was just trying to emphasize that if the great Steve Forte was amazed at my work and ability to deal the punch like Walter Scott, I had to have some kind of credibility when recommending this book.

Thanks again.

Your New Friend


In Flames, thanks for writing but the Road to Utopia is not that easy partner. Scroll through these here post and see what DVD's and Videos the other's experts recommended.

Still Your Friend

Message: Posted by: in flames (May 23, 2004 02:41AM)
No problem Doc, I totally understand. Thanks
Message: Posted by: J Wessmiller (May 23, 2004 08:09PM)
Wow, this thread has turned into a DOC Q&A. I have another for you DOC:
You said you teach the bible, and I was wondering what your stance on the morality of card cheating lies. Any thoughts?

thanks and be well,
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 24, 2004 12:11AM)
If I answer this question and I will to the best of my ability, it will bring a lot of resentment from many magicians.

But Doc never holds back the truth when it's pertainent to saving a person's life, this is why I'm so straight forward and direct. Life is the most important thing in this world and all of us living in heaven or earth as friends for all eternity will be what is gained by truth.

I'll be back in a few to answer this question.
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 24, 2004 01:18AM)
I just thought I'd chime in and say that it was this thread that brought Phantoms of the Card Table to my attention. I've purchased a copy and I must say that it looks like a great read.

So, thanks to the original thread starter and all the other contributors here.
Message: Posted by: Tielie (May 24, 2004 05:28AM)
Balducci: no problem :D

DOC do you feel that the world of a cardcheat is being romanticized with all these films going on about them and stuff?

I would really appreciate an answer :)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 24, 2004 05:46AM)
Mr. Balducci thanks for writing me and I appreciate you reading my viewpoint on the book and not prejudging me of how I posted it. I'm human and I tried to help promote this book the best way I could.

I hope you enjoy it. It really helped me with a lot of missing things that I've learned through trial and error over the years on my own and it brought to my attention some things I payed attention to at one time or another but I let it past.

Your New Friend


Hey Tielie what's up partner, thanks for writing.

To answer your question no, I feel that since the writer's and directors have written about almost everything there is to write about they want something new. Since this area is even forbidden to even the magicians they want to do something that no other director has done before. To be honest, I wish they would do a movie about great card cheats.

A friend of mine wanted to me to write a book of my life and times as a hustler because I have a lot of great and funny stories to tell but they wanted Denzel Washington to play me. Denzel is a great actor but only the Doctor can play the Doc and I'm definitely not teaching him my Cold Deck moves of which I'm No. 1 in the U.S.

I was just thinking about a movie of the best card/dice cheat in the country who accidentally talks too much about how he'd play any body anywhere and gets himself into a crazy predicament after his partner who always gets him games for a p.c. hears him boasting that if anybody wants to play him they have to have at least $1,000,000 table stakes and they have to put up $500,000 no show money. When his friend finds a game like this Doc tells him to put up his part of the no show money. Being that Doc friends who idolizes him hear that there is sucker action, they want a piece of it

When Doc shows up to see the poker game, he sees The Great Steve Forte (the best card/dice cheat in the country who he idolizes) and his team of experts (which he doesn't know are experts) are the ones who have invited him to play. When he tries to bow out gracefully and get his money back Steve reminds him that the contract states that if you bow out, you forfeit your $500,000.00 no show money; now Doc has to play.

I think this would be a great movie and would I like to see more of them made yes, especially if Iím in it.

Thanks again for writing me

Your New Friend


To Those Here At This Forum who are Privately Messaging me? Thanks for writing.

I don't mind helping many of you here but there are rules once you get to the top of which Iím a newbie and periodically finding out. The top magicians and top cheats don't want you the new and up-coming cheat or magician to have certain information pertaining to certain things.

This elite society wants to remain the best of the best therefore they take certain notes that you write and keep them for themselves to learn and then delete them so that you the public canít read them and then ban you from the site; and no Iím not talking about this one, Iím just speaking in general

In the cheating area they consider you a wanna-be, a sleeper (a person who doesn't know) or a potential victim and they want to keep you that way.

Besides them not wanting you to have this information to be honest with you, neither do I. Iím not God and I donít possess the ability to read minds or hearts so Iím not sure who to talk to and give this information to. So the only reasonable conclusion that Iíve come up with is to be silent on certain things and card techniques.

How would I be able to keep my status if everyone can do the exact same thing I can do? We all in our heart want to be recognized in some kind of way for our achievements in life and some of us have even devised get rich quick schemes to fame by going the way of Card Detectives - if only I knew this I would be famous and so on and so on and some just want to know. So donít think that Iím mean if I donít answer you regarding certain questions you may ask me.

To the Card Cheats and Card Manipulators

Mostly every card cheating technique like the Zarrow Shuffle, The Table Pass, The Second Deal, The Middle Deal, The Bottom Deal, The Greek Deal, The Punch Deal, Hand Mucking, Stacking, Peeking, Culling on the Fly, Holding Out, Card Counting, Machines, Shuffle Tracking, Keeping the Bottom Stock, Keeping the Top Stock, Keeping the Whole Deck in Order, Cold Decking and even vanishing a pair of dice and switching in another pair with the ability to bring them back whenever you want and still be able to show both sides of your hand perfectly clean already exist. I know what Iím talking about because I've seen it and many of these moves I can do already and the last one I invented.

Each cheating expert doesnít possess the ability to do each of these moves perfectly just like each magician canít do every magic trick perfectly. We all have our specialties, example Steve Forte is my Idol but Darwin Ortiz is unsurpassed by any expert that I know at Riffle Stacking. When he stated on his video that if you knew how hard this was to do, you would be kneeling at my feet instead of standingĒ he was right but the viewerís of his video thought that he was being arrogant by stating this when actually he was only expressing how hard this move was to do and to learn.

You think that punch dealing is easy, well itís not. Why would anyone who can see try to learn how to deal Braille? Then after you learn then go out to a world of people magicianís and cheats included to ask them how to make something that they donít know nothing about, and those that do know little about it show you a big a** punch device that you canít use in front of people in a game.

Note: This is why Steve Forte couldnít elaborate on the Punch Deal in the back of ďThe Phantoms of the Card Table.Ē His specialties are something else. To know what they are view his 4 part Gambling Series Protection Tapes and when you finish looking at those, you just only scratched the surface of his card and dice cheating ability. I know, I saw him, Iíve video taped him and I still canít do most of the stuff that he showed me. This is why heís my idol and teacher now.

Steve and I are from two different worlds. Why you say that Doc?. We do both have common games like poker and black jack, but thatís about it. Why would Steve try to learn how to cheat at Georgia Skin, Tonk and Knock Rummy when these are not his native games? Why would I try to learn how to cheat in Gin, Pinochle and Razz and I never play it. This limits our cheating ability for each game.

Doc's Movie Idea Continued -

Doc does two Cold Deck Switches that Steve never saw before and this is what finally beats Steve and his team of experts out in the movie that I thought about writing. (I wrote about in a previous thread)

Steve finds out Docís ability to switch decks when his cameraman claims that the Readerís (marks that you can only through a certain type of camera lenses) mysteriously disappears. In order to straighten out the problem, Steve calls a time out and when he goes to correct the problem and runs back the footage, he finds out that nothing is wrong with the camera, Doc just Cold Decked them. Now that they know what to look for Doc canít do that move on them any more without them knowing about it.

Doc knows that something isn't right because they didnít fall for the Cold Deck switch so Doc leaves and check out the deck he just switched out of the game. He sees what the problem is and figures out what he has to do and gets mad and takes off his shirt leaving him with only his suspenders and T-Shirt on. As Doc goes back to the game when the time is right heís going to do his ultimate Cold Deck move on Steve.

Itís Steveís turn to deal, as Doc gets ready. The move is done, Steve thinks itís a splash move (a fake to see if the people would go for it) cause the guy whoís looking through the camera see that the marks are still on the Readers, Steve see that Doc doesnít bring the money back to his lap like previously and drops it on the table after he cuts the deck, being that he has only a T-shirt on the camera zooms in on Docís lap and when the cameraman see that heís clean, he confirms this to Steve in an earpiece that everything is okay. I think he just did a splash, Steve agrees and okayís his team everything is on the square.

As Steve deals the hand everybody is in the pot. Why would they think that their boss would send them a good hand if he didnít want them to play? After reading the backs of the players cards and seeing that Steve is dealing, the camera guy figures that Steve just did his thing.
As Steve turns the AD, KS, QS over in the flop everybody starts betting. Some start using the crossfire technique to get Doc to bet more, Doc even calls. As the camera guy sees all the cards, all is confirmed. Steve turns over the 4th card which is a 2D, bets are still made by all, Now Steve turns over the 5th card which is the AS all the money is in the pot except for some of Steveís and some of Docís. Doc says broke now, broke later isn't going to make me no difference Steve as he pushes all his money in the pot.

Steve realizes that Doc know who he really is under his disguise. Steve signals the camera man to see what Docís two hole cards are again, Doc calmly spreads both of his cards accidentally as he reaches for his soda. The camera guy tells Steve that Doc has a JS and a 10D in the hole. Steve starts to push his money in the pot and then card sense steps in, ďWhy would this guy who I know is good put all his money in the pot if heís not sure heís going to win, something just ainít right. As the cameraman confirms to Steve again that Doc only has an Ace high straight Steve says, ďI pass.Ē As his team looks dumb founded at what he just said he shrugs his shoulders shaking his head.

As Doc stands up and turn over his two cards, he reveals a 10S instead of a 10D which makes him have a Royal Flush (Doc Juiced one card the wrong way when he checked out the deck and found out what they was using), as this is done he simultaneously turns to look at his crew who is standing against the wall whispering and praying and says to them, ďAnd the Legend Continues.Ē

Steve smiles after hearing them call my name and say Doc I heard of you, I know you Cold Decked me but how did you do that?

Question? How did Doc make the Deck disappear and convince the cameraman and Steve that that move was a splash?



Hello Doc

I am a very good friend of Darwin Ortiz's and Ö Darwin told me you were the best at the punch deal he had ever met, bar none (I believe that is accurate).

Take Care


Hey **** how are you doing? I hope all is well with you and your family. I've heard of you, I'm not sure where but I've heard of you and whatever you do, I know you do well.

Yes I was in town with Darwin and *** at the time and you know what? He's a real and I mean real nice guy. He let me stay at his place and sleep because my money was low and I very much appreciated that from him.

You know what? I had Darwin to sign my books of his that he wrote and that I studied and learned from. It was an honor to actually meet my teacher. Yes Darwin is one of my major teachers.

Darwin wrote "To Eric (Doc) I'm proud to considered you a student of mine."

"To Eric (Doc) You're the best at what you do."

"To Eric (Doc) Thanks for a really great, memorable session."

Sincerely Darwin Ortiz

I know a lot of people don't understand Darwin or feel that he's actually a gambler but if Steve Forte the greatest card cheat manipulator I know has all of Darwin's books on his book shelf (and Darwin has all of Steve's Videos). The students here that want to learn ought to also have all of Darwin's gambling books and gambling videos on their bookshelves too.

Thanks again for writing me

Your New Friend


To Whom it May Concern.

Hey Ya'll, it's me again. My answer to Mr Wessmiller question on my Morality of Cheating is posted at the Good News Forum under Doc's Viewpoint on Cheating, Magicians and Vantriloquist if you care to read it.

Thanks and please don't cut my head-off, it's just what I and I repeat I believe to be right, not that it's right.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: James Foster (May 24, 2004 08:40PM)
On 2004-05-24 19:02, Unknown419 wrote:
We both have common games like poker and black jack, but thatís about it. Why would Steve try to learn how to cheat at Georgia Skin, Tonk and Knock Rummy when these are not his native games? Why would I try to learn how to cheat in Gin, Pinochle and Razz and I never play it. This limits our cheating ability for each game.[/quote]

Read the above carefully because this information is most relevant. I firmly believe that you only need to cheat in one or two games (and only once or twice a night) to be effective and "get the money". You must know the games that are to be played, you must be able to play them well without cheating, and then you must know when is the time to cheat. There are significant differences regionally in which games are dealt and how they are dealt. This knowledge is vital to being effective at the card table.

All the best,

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 24, 2004 09:39PM)
James how are you doing and thanks for writing me.

I have a errie feeling inside that you might be an expert in this area so since I don't know everything I'm willing to listen and learn. To be honest with you, I have no card sense. I learn the game first, I practice different strategies and combinations to get the cards that I need to win and I go from there. This is why I'm trying to learn Sal Piacente memory system.

With the strategy technique you just gave, I know that my opponents will play me longer because it won't bring suspicion on me too quick. I've thought about this way and I'm trying to learn it now but again to be honest, when you reach a certain level of expertise, you tend to get lazy when practicing. I have all that I need to practice with but I'm just too lazy to do it but I have to get off of my butt eventually and practice.

On the other hand the games that I've mentioned Georgia Skin and Tonk. Try cheating once a night in the fastest card money game there is and you'll be feeling for skin cause your pocket will be empty. Tonk is a rummy game in which the lowest hand wins. There is no strategy but to try to get the lowest hand so you can knock. Cheating once a night in this game will also keep you broke. Hence the Punch Deal.

Now I definitely agree with you in poker to cheat once or maybe twice a night but you have to realize something James, I'm black, I live and play in hoods, (I REPEAT HOODS). Not nice places like the whites play at. If I cold deck and win a big pot, I can't sit there and play with your reasoning, why? The guys that I play with are mostly thugz, drug dealers and criminals in some form or fashion. All they have to do is go the bathroom or another part of the house and make a phone call and have the stick-up guys waiting to take that money back from me as soon as I walk out the door.

I've been in incidents like that already and almost got killed. So my teacher taught me, Doc when you win leave, if they put more money on the table then go back to the bathroom but if not, leave some on the table and say that you're gonna be back and get in the wind before the stick up guys come. I found out through my girlfriend who was his girlfriend sister that he used to do it himself and when I asked him to see if it was trueÖhe laughed. My girlfriend new him over 15 years cause he went with her sister. He eventually told me later on that he did.

These magicians and wanna-be-cheats don't know what I go through. Why you think that I'm here trying to talk? I'm hoping someone might know someone who might get me to do something that's less life threatening.

I'm trying to get help and they're deleting my post. There's a method to my madness. And to be frank out of all the people I know, Only Andrew Wimhurst is the only one who is really helping me out. There so I said it. ANDREW THANKS BIG TIME.

I hope that this has enlighten you

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: flowJuggler (May 25, 2004 01:27AM)
This is probably the most exciting post I have ever read. Doc...I never heard of you and it took a while before I believed that you were for real, but you gots a bunch of friends so now I am down.

My question is this...why are you broke? If you do what you do so well, shouldn't you be like rich? Get an agent and get some bookings at all the poker groups, casinos and magic clubs across the US and the world. I'd pay $20 to hear you speak!

And thanks for dropping in...I am going to have some exciting dreams tonight.

Message: Posted by: Tielie (May 25, 2004 09:22AM)
Yes I was wondering the same thing. You obviously have great skill and knowhow. Have you considered turning your talents into security types of things? Like Ortiz does(or did?) and Steve Forte, your teacher.

Can it be that somehow you became addicted to the lifestyle. I know this is completely irrelevant what I am going to say now, but I can imagine the thrill of cheating. When I play cards with my friends, it's not about serious money. Maybe 5 cents a game, that can become 50 cents a hand if you win.
Once or twice a night, I cheat. Just for the feeling of getting away with it. I know that if they catch me, they'll never let me play again and because they are my friends, I wouldn't want to steel their money. So the next games I always lose, for an obvious reason.

Your situation is much more serious, getting hurt or much worse when caught. But don't you feel you have an opportunity earning money with your talents in an honest way?

Thanks in advance,

Message: Posted by: James Foster (May 25, 2004 10:52AM)
On 2004-05-24 22:39, Unknown419 wrote:
Now I definitely agree with you in poker to cheat once or maybe twice a night but you have to realize something James, I'm black, I live and play in hoods, (I REPEAT HOODS). Not nice places like the whites play at.[/quote]


Thanks for the post. I, too, played many a game in rough neighborhoods, both white and black, both in northern California and in Texas. I understand your sentiments and approach to advantage play. I also believe that to be most effective over the long term you must be VERY selective about when to take the advantage.

I look forward to hearing more from you.

All the best,

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 26, 2004 12:00AM)
To Juggler, James and Those Interested

James there's something that I didn't make clear. People hire me to play cards and fly me to different places to win. These here people give less than a !@#$% about me, their only interested is, is in getting the money and they don't care what they have to do or say to get it.

I said all that to say this, you say "that to be most effective over the long term you must be VERY selective about when to take the advantage." I can't do that, I'm broke and I need money. Besides those that hire me don't understand what you or me is talking about; all they want me to do is win and hurry up and win so we can go to another spot to get more money.

I would elaborate more on the subject, but I can't cause it would hurt the sales of a book one of my friends here is writing in which some of my stories are in.

Why Am I Broke With My Skills

There are a number of reasons why I'm broke even though I have these skills and I will list some so you can know why.

The main reason why Iím broke is that I had good parenting and wasnít raised to be a hustler or a cheat. I was raised like most of you here to go out and work for a living. My problem like most of yaíll is ďNeed More.Ē Need more means that we need more money to pay our rent, to pay for my college education, to support my family, to buy more magic books to buy more videos, to get out of this dump, to buy some clothes, to buy whatever your need is right now.

The Devil has placed these gods before us and whatever your god is (drinking, drugs, smoking, TV, video games, magic tricks, money, power, sex, fame, prestige etc.); he uses these things to manipulate us to forget God.

Since I wasnít raised to run the streets and do anything like drugs etc to get money, I was new to this. I have 6 kids and I wasnít making enough money to support my family. If youíre white and young and think that you donít get paid enough, you might be right but the fact is, youíre still getting paid more than a black person in the same position. Iím not prejudice in the least. There are nice and nasty people in every race. Iím just stating the facts.

Iíve Finally Found My Get Rich Quick Solution: Cheat

So like many of yaíll here at this forum, I devised a get rich quick scheme. I didnít want to sell drugs, I didnít want to rob so I had to figure out what could I possibly do to get rich. While one day I was sitting around watching TV. A Las Vegas show came on and said that gambling was a billion dollar industry. I said to myself ďwell heck, all I want is a million and I wonít be doing anything illegal. So I started taking my paycheck and go gambling. You know I lost and I kept on losing (this was at dice). Note: I would be at Gamblerís Anonymous today if I didnít know how to cheat why? Because I donít think that Iím suppose to lose.

One day while playing cards (black jack) a guy blatantly turned the entire deck over on another guy and gave himself a hit card of a card that was played on the previous hand and won the bet. The other guy didnít know what happened and since I was already broke and not playing I couldnít say anything (You mind your business, you live longer). So I didnít get mad, I said I was going to get even. Since I was a magician I set out to the magic store to find a way to beat this guy and guess what I got? Them magic cards that had them reader backs, Expert Card Technique and ďExpert at the Card Table.Ē I beat the mess out of him with them with magic cards for the next couple of months and when it was his deal I knew just what he was getting and I wouldnít let him turn that deck over on me; and no I didnít know how to Second Deal at this time. LOL. I found my get rich quick solution.

From this point on read my previous comments and you will know how I got good and who were my teachers.

You Donít Want To Learn

Did you not read Sherwood Fosterís Comments to me and did you read that I said unknowingly back to him ďthat you sound like a professional and Iím willing to listenĒ and he didnít even say much to me. I just want to elaborate here to explain something to yaíll magicians. Most of the answers that yaíll want are right in front of your face and you donít even see it. You donít know what to look for. Example: Not one person here wrote any answer to me about the question that I asked at the end of my Movie Idea about how I fooled Steve Forte and the Cameraman with my Cold Deck move. You know what this shows me without words? You are not really interested in learning how to cheat you just want to know how to do the moves.

You know what else this shows me? Not one person here is really interested in learning how to punch deal. I wrote a comment on the Punch Deal asking questions and not one person here wrote to me or answered any of my questions down to the layman to the top professional. So when someone states to me (professional or laymen) that they didnít get anything out of the book The Phantoms of the Card Table, I automatically know there level as a cheating card mechanic. Donít miss understand me here, I didnít say card mechanic, I said cheating card mechanic; Hence I know what his card specialty is not. Note: Because I made this statement donít mean that I know everything either.

This is why I stated in my Review of The Phantomís of the Card TableĒ IF ANYONE DON'T LIKE THIS HERE BOOK AFTER READING IT AND DON'T THINK THAT THIS IS TRUE, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT REAL GAMBLING IS AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT. I meant this statement from the bottom of my heart because of my knowledge and people thought I was just being arrogant. This is why this thread came to be.

A real gambler knows another real gambler just by the way he speaks. This is why I HAD (listen magicians) I HAD TO SHUT UP WHEN SHERWOOD FOSTER MADE HIS COMMENT TO ME. Like a magician knows the level of another magician, I knew that some kind of Authoritative individual was now speaking and when he spoke, I HUMBLED MYSELF AND LISTENED. This is why I have so many teachers and why I give them the credit that is due them. This is also why I said in a previous thread regarding all my teachers, ďI just didnít say anything and when I was finished learning, I combined ALL OF THEIR TEACHINGS and made up my own style DOC CAN DU.Ē The words were a joke at first but now Doc can do everything that all his teacher taught him. This is why I have an arsenal of things that I can do whenever I need to figure out what I need to do in order to beat a game.

Walter Scott Tells the Truth About Magicians.

Walter Scott said ďWhen you cheat a man out of his money, itís like stepping on his face into mud. So itís more than just cheating cards. Itís experience. And fifty years of experience canít be taught to you in twenty-one minutes. Magicians donít realize this when they visit me. They really donít want to learn anything. They just fancy knowing how it is done.Ē ďMagicians werenít interested in playing poker; they only wanted to know the moves that got the cards from the deck and on to the table.

You see why I liked this book so much, my teacher from the grave is still teaching his student and telling him what to look out for. He just taught why yaíll didnít write me or try to answer any of my above questions.

Back To Why Iím Broke. Iím Broke Because of Greed.

This may sound crazy because greed can make you rich but it can also make you broke. Doc please explain? You ever heard of Cross Roaders? Well Cross Roaders are cheaters that travel from state to state in order to gamble. These cheats have worn out there welcome in their area, town or city in which they live in and they canít get anyone to play them anymore so they have to travel to where ever to get a game to earn an income.

Walter Scott will explain why Iím broke,

The Smart Cheater: ďWhen it comes to being a second dealer you can deal three aces but it doesnít mean you should. A smart dealer knows his business. He has to control himself. If you deal yourself three aces constantly, pretty soon the other player(s) will kick and holler because he is losing and you have him beat after bluntly cheating in his face. He canít hurt you with what he SEES BUT HE CAN WITH HIS MOUTH, which is dangerous. He can try and turn other players against you. Note: You see Walter had to learn this too somewhere and usually experience is your best teacher.

You see you have the answer right here. Explain more Doc? Didnít this book just come out? Well I did what the Expert at the Card Table told me to do, but I didnít do this or what Mr. Sherwood Foster is now telling me to do. I did not know. I kept beating and beating and beating the people all over town when I shouldíve just took a salary. I took money, tokens (for the train) and food stamps for my family to eat. I had money coming from everywhere. I did what I want, went where I want, and bought what I want almost at anytime I want. The word on the street was that Doc donít leave no money in the streets. I used to say gamblers if you got any change in your pocket, you donít need that, and I would then play them for their change just to see them broke. After beating them I would tell them, ďnow go do some road workĒ (go get some more money)

I thought that this wasnít ever going to end, but slowly but surely people started to kick and holler as Walter said and word started going around town, You know Doc cheats. People defended me but others started paying attention and even though they didnít see one wrong move done, logic told them that nobody wins all the time.

So now you know why Iím broke because nobody plays me and when someone do hire me to play, I have to split 50/50 of what I win with a Jap Wise sucker who donít care about my life, only about the money which is his god. So Greed made me well off for a time and Not Controlling Greed ďbeing a smart cheaterĒ now keeps me broke cause word of mouth like Walter said is dangerous.

Other Reasons Why Iím Broke

1. The money that you win donít last forever cause you got to eat, pay bills etc.
2. Nobody hires you.
3. You teach helping out a friend and then he donít need you anymore because he can get the money himself now.
4. You get scared to play people and go places because if something happens, you know in your heart that the guy that youíre with wonít stand up or die for you. I canít blame him because I wouldnít die for him either. They will tell you anything to play a guy, but wonít tell you that heís a killer or a drug King Pin. Note: Iíve played cards with the whites and they have more regular money from working or having a business than the drug dealers I play with and they donít mind when they lose it: A couple of hundreds ainít no money to them. I played with some Italian guys and whatever else some black jack. Thirteen people at the table. I dealt around the whole table 3 times getting 19 or better each time and won over $5,000 after paying out $2,000 to two guys that had 21. I could live comfortably beating these guys if I just beat them for $300 a day, which is $109,200, a year tax-free.

Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 26, 2004 02:23AM)
Just to let you know Doc,

Some of us here at the Cafť are listening and learning from you, even if we don't chime in and respond.

Be careful giving away too much detail, because I assure you for the most part you're talking waaaaaaaaaay over people's heads here. There are a few who'll listen to you and will benefit, but many, many more who will let this stuff go in one ear and out the other.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 26, 2004 03:50AM)
Jason thanks for writing and I know (I believe in my heart) what you are saying is right. Please forgive me for not contacting back immediately about hooking me up with Damian for the Premier. Thanks a million and I had a great time with Damian, his girlfriend, her girlfriend and everybody. I just had a ball.

Oh one more thing I have to thank you for. If you didn't hook me up with him, I've would have gotten arrested for being at a gambling spot that got raided for drugs. S.W.A.T. came, busted up everything in the place and took everybody to jail for a whole weekend and kept all the money that they confiscated from the arrestees.

Thanks again. God sure works in mysterious ways.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Tielie (May 26, 2004 04:54AM)

I've heared your name before, but can't recall where. Any thoughts?
DOC: thanks again for the read.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (May 26, 2004 06:08AM)
Hi Doc,
How's it going? Still raining here...

Like Jason England says, a lot of us are reading your posts and absorbing them. And we all value what you have to say, even if we don't write back with answers to questions you've posed. As mentioned by Jason, a lot of what you're writing goes over most of the reader's heads and so we would have no idea as to how you accomplish many of your feats of skill and nerve. But everything you've put up here has been thought provoking and appreciated by some. I'm still mulling over your points mentioned on the Punch.

We all know that you don't have to tell us nothing about anything, so it is appreciated greatly when you do. Keep telling it like it is.

Best of luck and be safe,
T. Joseph O'Malley
Message: Posted by: flowJuggler (May 26, 2004 10:04AM)
Well DOC, just about everything you say goes over my head...but I enjoy just as much (although unable to appreciate it as much I'm sure).

Why don't you write a memoir? You are clearly literate and organize your thoughts very well. You got my order...where do I send the check?

And for the screenplay idea...even better. Have it based on the book and you can get both markets. You could act as a stunt double if you are concerned about exposing your identity.
Message: Posted by: Tielie (May 26, 2004 10:54AM)
First the book, which will sell like madness amongst magicians and gamblers. Then, with all the hype, THE MOVIE. can't go wrong anymore.

Oh and when something really comes out of all this: please shoot the video in Holland and let me know :)
Message: Posted by: Larry Barnowsky (May 26, 2004 12:20PM)
In your experience what percentage of real full time card cheats make a comfortable living or even are wealthy? This would include cheaters who are mechanics in private card games as well as casino card cheats who may cheat by manipulating cards and chips.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 26, 2004 04:41PM)
Tommy, hey this is Doc thanks for writiing. I read your statement and I thought it was real and funny and to the others reading. Tommy's right.

Tom thanks for writing that, I appreciated it.

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: LeConte (May 26, 2004 04:54PM)
What happens when your rope is up with gambling? As you mentioned earlier, isn't word of mouth about you getting around? Are the games getting harder to find?

As you grow older (middle age and beyond) is it harder to physically cheat at the table? I know that you would have greater wisdom gained over the years, but it seems that even a slight decline in gambling skills due to age could be very, very bad.

Since cheating doesn't have a 401k plan what is your plan? Is there a way to cheat to win and save, or the day you leave cheating behind, will you have no money in your pocket? The memories will sure be sweet though.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 26, 2004 05:04PM)
The Answer To My Riddle

Even though no one wrote how Doc beat out Steve Forte and his team of expert cheats, this is the answer to the riddle? The suspenders were the clue.

Doc used a magic trick known to Magicians as the Jacketless Topit By Dan Sylvester

When Doc took off his shirt he wasn't really mad at all, he wanted without words to show everybody who was looking for him to do something that he couldn't possibly do anything because he had only had on a short sleeve T-shirt.

So why couldn't the cameraman see what happened? Doc's body blocked the upper view momentarily by leaning forward. When Doc completed his move and leaned back, the deck was already in his Jacketless T-Shirt Topit and since not to many people care for this gimmick and since the camera guy didn't know what to look for, Doc accomplished the move and won the money but still didn't beat out Steve for his money because he knew that something just wasn't right.


[quote]You obviously have great skill and know how. Have you considered turning your talents into security types of things? Like Ortiz does(or did?) and Steve Forte, your teacher.[/quote]

Yes I have, but I canít. Why? You have to realize that street hustling and cheating at a casino is not the same thing. I posted already that everybody has their specialties. I donít know anything about how to cheat at slot machines, roulette etc. and if I did I wouldnít tell you.

Those who cheat at that would run rings around me because I havenít the slightest idea of what to look for. This area is Steveís specialties. This why heís the President of International Gaming Specialties and Iím home broke.

I have the Cheating at Blackjack video and when I saw it, I said to myself, let me see if I could catch these people cheating. When I looked at it, I couldnít see one thing that they was doing wrong. For the record, I wouldíve got robbed. Like I said, no one cheater knows everything about everything and this is why I keep my butt out. LOL

You also have to realize that even though I call all the magicians that taught me my teachers, they are not cheats and they donít know anything about cheating at any casino. They are magicians like you that have read, studied and practiced things pertaining to gambling. I mentioned Darwin Ortiz, Sal Piacente, Steve Forte and Glenn Bishop as my teachers but they are not cheats either, at least to my knowledge. They may posses the ability to cheat from what they learned but rest assured that these gentlemen are nothing but great card mechanics. Iím the cheat.

I mentioned Andrew Wimhurst, Jason England, Damian Neiman and Paul Wilson as being my teachers but who ever said that they cheat? The only reason I mentioned Sal Piacente and Steve Forte as my teachers now is not that they cheat or are cheaters, they work or used to work in surveillance at the casinos and have a better understanding of real live cheating activities then anyone else I know.

The Magicians Are My Teachers

You know why I believe that Steve is the best card mechanic there is and why Iím calling him my teacher? Itís because everybody in the United States and around the world that knows anything about cards and have any sort of reputation admires Steve, and since he is a kind-hearted guy that helps each person out as much as he can without tipping the great stuff, everybody wants to show him what they know; Steve canít help but get better.

So how can any one cheater like myself meet as many people as Steve and match his knowledge without having the connections that he has?

The only way a person can meet as many people as Steve and have the same connections that he has is to GO TO THE MAGICIANS. This is why I was good before I met him or any experts here. THE MAGICIANS ARE REALLY MY TEACHERS; look at My Riddle Post. Anyone who tells me you shouldnít hang around or talk to magicians. What they are telling me without words is (Doc I want you to stop learning). It is the magicians that have the answers; they just DONíT KNOW THE QUESTIONS. So while some of you here think that youíre picking my brain, Iím actually here picking yours.

So Why You Call Steve Your Teacher

Steve is my teacher because heís a magician whose specialty is card cheating. Heís also my teacher because he let me videotape stuff that a person would normally forget when you left his presence so that I can go home and study it. Steve admired my skill but ONLY because of his friend Sal Piacente did he let me videotape him. AND NO YOU CANíT SEE IT; ITíS FOR MY EYES ONLY.

Kind-Hearted Steve

When I went to visit Steve I went there with my last money in which no one knew. My money became short when I missed my flight the day before. I couldnít leave my friends stranded and stuck so I had to stick it out with them. After I beat some guys I gave them the money to get home from Texas. I didnít know at that time I was putting my self in a jam. The money for my round trip ticket that I had for the day before I totally lost and I had to pay a full price while at the airport to fly to Las Vegas. I said to hell with it and took a chance and spent my last but I was going to go meet my Idol.

After spending a couple of days with Steve, Sal, Rod, David Blaine and Allen Ackerman it was about time to go. You know I did with my last money; I went to the Gambling Book Store and bought more gambling books. Wow, now that I think about it, I must have been a nut but I had to have those books.

This is when Sal realized that I was almost down to my last $100. Sal told Steve and out of no where later on that day, Steve offered to give me a couple of hundred dollars pocket money in which I needed but I politely declined telling him if all else fails, then I would need it. He said okay, but still tried to give it to me anyway. Now you know that was genuine.

Could you believe this? This man just met me and was going to do that for me. Hey I got to give him the praise thatís due to him and tip off my hat. I didnít take it because I was embarrassed but I also know that God doesnít close a door unless he opens up a window and God always answers my prayer. Oh and donít let me forget to tell you that David Blaine offered me plane fare too, in which I also politely said no thank you to.

My gambling partners who I came through for in Texas eventually got me back to Atlanta a day later where I made some more money, but if they wouldnít have been able to do it, I knew that my mom wouldíve. I just didnít want to ask her because she gets upset; I told you so, and you know I didnít raise your butt up that way, I donít know where you got this *** gambling mess from, etcÖLOL Hey yaíll ainít nobody like your momma. Hence this is another reason why I want to quit; even though Iím a great cheat, a cheat is nothing for a mother to be proud of.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (May 26, 2004 09:48PM)
George, DOC...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Logan Five (May 27, 2004 12:14AM)

I can't wait for your book. I have many books about gambling & bio's about gamblers, but your story ranks way up there..your story MUST be told.

Thank you for your honesty in this thread. I think all of us on the Magic Cafť. That are taking this in, are getting a real education.


Rick Kirkes
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 27, 2004 12:52AM)
Rick I would like to thank you for your compliment and I hope to one day write a book. But I need the people to ask me questions? My life is not as glamourous as some may believe that it is and the truth have to be told so these guys that do glamourize us cheats would think again and go in the right direction.

Your New Friend


Hey ***** how are you doing, I'm glad that you wrote me.

I am from ***** Georgia and I grew up and went to high school at *****. There I played a lot of Tonk. We played for a quarter a game and if you Tonked out you got paid double. When I try to picture how this game is played I can't see high stakes. You could always drop your hand and the lowest total wins so I don't understand how this works for lots of money. I would need to see a real live game of Tonk to understand.

Tonk is a big money game and it is played exactly how you said it is played. So now change the quarters to $10 or $20 a game and when you Tonk you get paid double which is $60 or $120 that hand (In a 4 handed game each pays $20 or $40).

I know you probably played high spade or low spade/heart; now add $10 or $20 for whoever wins and now that $30 or $60 more you can win. If you won $300 a night and multiply that by 365 days a year, that $109.200 a year with no taxes. You telling me that that's not high stakes. How many people do you know can make that much money in about an 1 1/2 to 2 hours. I can make it less than that but it will draw too much suspicion.

[quote]I don't have what it takes to do what you do at the card table. By that I mean that I don't have the guts to cheat and that is almost all that matters. In my heart I know that I am just a !@#$% and that makes cheating all but impossible for me and makes me also a scared magician. You can't teach guts, so I wonder where you got yours from? Without fear, then you are king especially at the card table. [/quote]

***** you may not have what it takes to do it yet because you were never placed in a position to do that. When you're broke and your wife and kids got to eat and you have to provide or else; you don't know what you'll do.

Many guys die everyday trying to save someone elseís life. They don't think that they are heroes, they know that at that moment that they had to do whatever they had to do or else. Don't think that I have guts; I'm just as scared as the next man. I do it because I have to and that guy that you think got guts, they only do because they got a gun on them.

The Bottom Line: I practice so much because I know that the man that I'm with don't really have my back if something really starts up and 2. I practice because I'm scared and I love living.

Your New Friend


Larry Barnowsky wrote:

[quote]In your experience what percentage of real full time card cheats make a comfortable living or even are wealthy? This would include cheaters who are mechanics in private card games as well as casino card cheats who may cheat by manipulating cards and chips.[/quote]

Larry thanks for writing me.

In my experience I can only give you the percentage of what black card and dice cheats make and this will not include cheaters in private card games as well as casino card cheats? Why? Youíre getting the Black culture mixed up with the White. The majority of blacks donít play in the nice private card clubs or casinos. We play in a hole in the wall, houses and anywhere we can start up a game. We will play on a back of a car, on a park bench or in a the streets if itís a dice game.

Chips, What are Chips? You mean potato chips? Wrong world. Next Question

I donít know of any wealthy black card or dice cheats; Iím not saying that theyíre not, Iím just saying that I donít know of any. The wealthy blacks that I do know didnít get their money playing cards.

A Comfortable Living

I would have to say that card and dice cheats make a very comfortable living. The lowest average cheat can make about $120,000 on a bad year no taxes. Every salary varies to how hard a gambler hustles to try to get another game and how well off his clients are. If youíre going to play cards with well known NBA players, of course your income will definitely be higher than playing at local house games. But if a man is lazy, how in the world can he make more money than you if youíre always out there trying to find a sucker or a game. The only thing that comes to a sleeper (lazy person) is a dream.

I hope that this has answered your questions.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Pekka (May 27, 2004 07:28AM)
Thank you Doc, this is truly a unique opportunity. Especially since in my country the culture very different from U.S and gambling and cheating are not as widespread. Hence, this may e one of the few chances for me to here the real words.

I was reading Ortiz's Gamling Scams and got very interested on proposition bets. Cheating on those is not really cheating at all, merely a misrepresentation of odds. My question is, do you use them? And are they widely used?

From a layman perspective, they seem to be a relatively easy and risk free way of achieving an edge. But is it so that too many people know them already, or more of a difficult to get the games going?

Thank you,
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (May 27, 2004 07:28AM)
This has been one of the most interesing topics yet! Would you mind sharing a sticky or funny situation you got into during a game whilst hustling?

Also that comment about Guy Hollingworth under the Wimurst posts just cracks me up. Maybe someone should start a hole new topic on strange comments magicians have made?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 28, 2004 03:23AM)
Magicianís Have Been Lied To

90% of the card or dice cheats that cheat are bums when it comes to card or dice mechanics. The average magician here can run rings around any of these guys at any given moment. Most of these cheats which are considered Jap Wise because Japanese are smart people, may have sat down with a guy who knew a little something and demonstrated some elementary moves and showed him how to mark cards. Now he thinks that he has all the sense and can spot a cheat because he saw a guy demonstrate some basic elementary cheating moves. In all actuality, all this guy might know is marked cards and still canít even do a basic second deal. What these guys will do is ďlook you out of your money if you play them.Ē

Mostly any magician here that can do a second deal or a bottom deal bad or good, will be rated as an expert to any of these cheats I just mentioned. This is why when magicians give gambling demonstrations, most of the people always say I wouldnít play cards with you or I need to bring you to one of my games. These people along with the cheats that I mentioned above donít know !@#$%.

The next level of cheaterís are still not at the level of any of you magicians here but yaíll donít know that. The next level is doing an overhand run-up, a second deal, maybe a bottom deal, hand mucking (the swing) and cutting to a crimp. This level right here to all cheats is considered to be an expert level.

The Magicianís Problem

The magicianís problem is that they have been lied to and are only hearing about the exceptional cheats like Allen Kennedy, Walter Scott, Dad Stevens, Erdnase and myself. They are told that every cheater that cheats posses our ability, which is the biggest lie ever told by magicians to magicians so that the presenting magician could look more like an expert than he actually is when he presents his gambling demonstration; Itís nothing but a hype. This is why I stated in my second deal post that was taken down that the best cheats that I ever saw started out as magicians.

Why Magicians Donít Excel

A cheater is nothing more than a magician whose stage is the card table and his audience the card players. These cheating magicians see things that happen or opportunities at a table that a regular magician would never see because he doesnít play cards. The cheating magician then go home and adapt his tricks or cheating methods to the condition in which he saw an opportunity to do it. This right here is what makes top magicians excel and this is why the magicians are my teachers. When I see a move or trick that can be adapted to the card table, I practice it. This is the reason I was good before I met the top mechanics.

One more reason why the magicians donít excel at gambling moves is because you donít need it. People by force of habit or unconsciously only practice that which they need. Why practice gambling moves when 9 out of 10 times youíre going to show a magic trick. I do magic, but 9 out of 10 times Iím going to gamble; therefore I practice what I need.

I hope that this has been some help.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (May 28, 2004 12:07PM)
I loved your post Doc,

I feel that it takes the same nerve to cheat at the card table as it takes for a magician to get out there on the stage and do a show.

One of the things that sets us on different roads is that cheating is in the advantage player's human nature.

And fooling people is in the magicians human nature.

How the ability to cheat being in the advantage players human nature is a question. It could be one of those rules in our belief system that our conscious mind makes with our sub conscious mind.

I could write more about how the conscious mind makes deals with our subconscious mind but that would be long and wordy and muck up a really great post!
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (May 28, 2004 12:56PM)
Does anyone know how old Steve Forte was when he made his gambling pro series1-4?
And how much did or does he pratice per day? How many hours per day I mean?
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 28, 2004 02:54PM)
Steve was ~ 28 when he made those tapes, give or take a year or so. He claims not to practice much anymore (don't believe him), but was an animal in his youth.

Message: Posted by: tommy (May 28, 2004 03:18PM)
I do not think you have to pratice a lot the things you have mastered. It's a bit like learning to ride a bike you do not forget how to do it. The hours of practice come with the things you just can not do well. That's how I find it. I might not be right, perhaps I should practice what I think I do well.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (May 28, 2004 04:16PM)
Thanks Jason, for the info!

Tommy, I have to disagree. The sleights you have "mastered" will still take practice to maintain or your skills will deteriorate.

Jason, how many hours a day do you practice as I am always being told your one of the top cardmen.

Last question, is it true Charlie Miller used to say you should practice between 55-70 hrs a week?

Thanks in advance for your comments.
Message: Posted by: LeConte (May 28, 2004 04:38PM)
It's the quality of the practice that matters.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (May 28, 2004 04:39PM)
Formal practice times vary during the week. I usually try and get in at least an hour a day. But the bulk of my practicing comes in large chunks on the weekends. I often will drive to a nearby restaurant (to get away from any distractions), order a small snack and then sit there for hours practicing things. I try and make sure it's okay with the wait-staff before commandeering a table like this for any period of time. It usually is.

I'd estimate between 8 and 10 hours per week of formal practice and then 2-4 more hours of informal (sitting at the computer, lunch-breaks at work, and relaxing at home) practice per week.


On 2004-05-28 17:38, LeConte wrote:[quote]
It's the quality of the practice that matters.[/quote]

I think this is an oversimplification of things.

A half-hour a week of "perfect" practice probably wouldn't stand up too well to 8 hours a week of "pretty good" practice. I believe improvement is a function of good to above average practice spread out over a period of many sessions and many hours.

Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (May 28, 2004 08:01PM)
Practice for me is sort of like meditation. I can't not do it. I sort of go a little nutty if I don't pick up a deck of cards or get out the shellgame and play with it for a while.

Often it helps me think.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (May 29, 2004 10:10AM)
I contend that none of this stuff is like riding a bike. If you stopped practicing, you'd remember the "big" gross motor movements (yes, with cards!) but would most likely forget the fine tuned subtlties. ie. you'd probably technically still be able to extract the 2nd card but your timing and rhythm would probably be out the window. That's my guess, anyway.

Actually, has any one ever tried NOT riding a bike for a few years, and then hopping back on? It's not nearly as easy as everyone makes it out to be...
Message: Posted by: Tielie (May 29, 2004 12:03PM)
Jason England: You worked on the movie Shade, am I right?

If so:

Is it really true you guys thought Vernon (don't know the actor's name :) ) How to control cards? Because that scene in which Vernon culls the 4 aces in a riffle shuffle is madness. I can't see myself doing that in the next 40 years :D
Message: Posted by: entity (May 29, 2004 01:47PM)
Doc: I've seen a friend of yours memorize a shuffled deck using what he says is a binary code system.

I'd like to learn to do it. Can you point me in the right direction?

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 30, 2004 07:34AM)
Entity thanks for writing. I'm not saying that I don't have a friend that does that but if so, tell me his or her name and ask them if they would teach it to me.

I can't point you in the right direction because I don't know either.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: entity (May 30, 2004 08:23AM)
Doc: Your friend's name is Sal.

I don't know him personally, and have no way of contacting him. Just thought you might know.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (May 30, 2004 05:58PM)
Entity thanks for responding, That's Sal Piacente the up and coming card detective for the casinos, one of my teacher's of memory.

Your Friend


A Con Gone Wrong

Sometime ago (I really donít remember all the details now) when Mike Tyson was in Harlem purchasing some leather material for his car seats, some friends of mine found out that he liked to play dice. After playing a couple of times a scam was set up by a couple of guys to beat Mike out of some money. After breaking in this leather manís store and setting up the Juice device behind a wall, things was set to go. When Mike was to come and check out and pay for the leather roof for his car, the scam would take place.

Just when the game was about to start, guess who shows up? Mitch Green (Iím not into sports so Iím not sure if it is this guy or not) starts trying to pick a fight with Mike. Mike while trying to get his bets on told him if he wants to fight we can do it right here or take it out side. Well everybody knows what happens now, Mike and Mitch gets into it right there; fist starts flying, girlsí start running, Dapper Dan starts screaming ďnot in here.Ē After we break up the fight, they went out side and started fighting and wrestling on the street (125th street between 5th and Madison Avenue). While in the process of wrestling Mike rolls on top of Mitch and when heís about to punch him in the face, Mitch moves his head and Mike punches the concrete and hurts his fist.

Even though Mike hurt his hand in the fight, he saved himself a lot of money that night.

A Knock Out With A Twist

One time when I was sitting in a gambling spot right across the street from where Mike and Mitch had that fight, word got out that Black James (A Georgia Skin Player) got cheated out of close to $50,000 - $60,000 by some of his card hustling friends. Black James took this in stride but a guy named Willie kept teasing him about it.

One day Black James gets ****ed off and said, keep on talking about it and Iím gonna knock your punk a** out. Willie said, you ainít gonna touch me. Black James stood up close to him and said now say it again. As soon as Willie said, I saidÖ. Kapow!: an uppercut hits Willie right smack dead on the chin knocking Willie right out. Willie slid down the wall onto the floor when he got hit and as he lay in a sitting position all of a sudden you see a puddle of water building up around him, Willie peed on himself.

This is the day when I learn that the P*** can really be knocked out of you.

Trying To Rob A Robber

[quote]In Sal's Expert Lecture Notes Volume 1, just before he does the 'Sal's Memory Opener' performance, he mentions that he is well known for his memory routines.

Does anyone have any details on his other memory routines? Do you know if any of his other material is printed/published elsewhere?


I don't have Sal's Video so therefore I don't know what you're talking about but Sal does have printed/typed up material, I know because I have them.

This is what I'm trying to study at the moment but I'm just too lazy to do. All I can say is that Sal has nothing but memory books on his shelf and when I say a lot, he has more than Steve or Darwin combined and they have the most books on gambling and cheating I know.

If you study Sal's notes, it will be better then buying all of them hundreds of books that he had to study in order to get where he's at today. I highly recommend them.

Doc Needs A Programmer To Help Make His Memory System.

To those who may be interested in making this basic elementary program for me, please PM me.

Thanks in Advance

Note: I have a beginning memory program that was being made for me by a young gentleman by the name of Karl Buchnerk. He stopped for one reason or another of which I don't know and now he has it up at his site and claims that it's a program that heís developing (on his own) and gives me no credit at all.

Doc says, ďI Would Have Got RobbedĒ

One day while on my way to Ohio from Louisville Kentucky to play a middleweight champ some Tonk (Thatís another story and no the game did not occur), a friend and I stopped off at Salís home along the way. This was our first meeting in 15 years. As I mentioned in a previous thread Sal and I practiced in the back of Ruebenís on the floor and sometimes under the tutelage of Frank Garcia, Gene Maze, Wesley James, Doug Edwards and yes Harry Lorayne: Sal did. Harry shunned me like a bad habit telling me to buy his memory book with him and Jerry Lucas; in which I did.

I was playing the light/glimmer/shiner and I couldnít remember the cards so who better to ask then the world famous Harry Lorayne? Well after I got mad and he didnít teach me, I bought and read his book and made up my own card memory system. Note: Sal and I had this idea since 1986-87 but since Sal went his way and I never saw him again, I had to go mine.

Note To Magicians: You see the results of his continuous study and hard work? Look at where itís getting him? Heís now one of the top leading consultants on casino gambling in the country with the great Steve Forte backing him; while my idea which is very similar to Salís is trying to be stolen by a young magician programmer (Karl Buchner) and still lying by the wayside.

Sal Is Awesome

As Sal and his lovely wife took me to a part of his house where he practices, I saw loads and loads of books, mostly on memory and that wasnít even all he had. I couldnít believe my eyes all the things that he has on gambling. I didnít yet get to meet Steve Forte at this time and to see what he had so I was mesmerized. If yaíll love his video, imagine him showing all of this live and more. His blackjack demonstration on a scale of 1 Ė 10 was a 10 (I have it on video as a matter of fact, I have everything on video except magic tricks and he has me on his). Sal blew my Jap-Wise hustler friend and myself away with what he did especially with his Shuffle Tracking System and his Rain Man Trick (Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman).

I Would Have Got Robbed

Sal took out 6 decks of cards and placed them all on top of one another and told me to break the 6 decks into two groups, he then said now break them into two groups in which I did. He told me to shuffle any two groups together in which I did and placed them in the middle of the table. He also told me to do it until my heart was content; so I did and after I did that group, I was to continue doing it just like the dealers in the casino does it; I did.

Sal took one of those yellow cards and cut the deck at a location and placed that half to the side and said that there were no aces in that entire two deck of cards that he cut away. I said yeah right. As we spread the cards, there was not one ace in that whole section like he said and then he took that yellow card and sliced another portion of that deck in which I shuffled and said that all the aces were in that group. I said all, he said all. We took that group and spread the deck and all 24 aces was in that group like he said and I did the shuffling. In my amazement, I laughed and told my friend, Sal and his wife, I would have got robbed.

When we went to eat down stairs, Sal asked me to take a deck and make a hand and give it to him. Sal then called one of his kids down stairs and asked him, ďWhat am I holding in my hand? He told his father Kingís over 5ís full house in which he was correct. Note: Now you can understand why my teacher taught me to play Cold Deck and not to play Poker. . . I would have got robbed; this is why students should pay attention to DETAILS.

This is the day when Sal gave me the notes and a study program to practice with and this is the day that Sal Piacente became my memory teacher.

One More Thing Before I Go

Iím going on record to date and saying that amongst the gamblers, I REPEAT AMONGST THE GAMBLERS (people who donít know anything about magic or Harry Lorayneís reputation), Sal is considered the best card memory guy in the country. I cannot agree with this even though Sal is my teacher. Sal agrees with me; but when I told him that I got into argument over him and some hustlers trying to prove that Harry is better; some said Harry who? And the otherís said, let Harry get in a card game and watch him get broke. I laughed but I had to agree with them.

Harry Lorayne has tons and tons of information bottled up inside of him right along with Doug Edwards; to me they are human encyclopedias on card magic here in NYC but when I made a Stripper Deck (in about 10 minutes) and told them that it was a Stripper Deck and asked them if could they pull my cards, Harry took the cards and couldnít even pull one; he said that these cards werenít Strippers. I then took the deck and pulled out all the Aces as one. I said Harry what if I told you that I can pull out all the Kings too, he said let me see, I pulled out all the Kings, and then I said Harry what if I can pull out all the Queens now by themselves and he said impossible, I pulled out all the Queens and walked away only because he shunned me 15 years earlier.

Bottom Line: If you havenít got Salís Video, please get it as soon as your pockets can stand the damage. I have to get them too not only because heís my teacher, because I need to know what can possibly exist if I attain at least half as much knowledge as he has.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: James Harrison (May 31, 2004 10:47AM)

Hey man, how are things? You going to the meeting at the Browser's this weekend?

Love the ring dude.

I will say that riding a bike thing you speak of is not a big thing for me, I haven't ridden a bike in like a year, but after about a half hour on it, I was riding it with no hands like I was a kid again. (Probably shouldn't do the no hands thing, I don't heal as quick as when I was 14.)


I'm really enjoying your posts. I'm not a big fan of card tricks per say, but I love reading about gambling. I picked up Phantoms at the Card table and enjoyed it very much. I want to learn more gambling techniques (one being the punch, like how to make one that wil fit in the hand unnoticed.) but like you said, the games I want to learn are probably different from the games you know.

But keep the stories coming, I love every one of them.

I hope you do put a book out.

All the best for you and your family,

James Harrison
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (May 31, 2004 11:10AM)
Hey James,

yup I'll be going to Browsers for sure. If you're going to ride a bike, wear gloves, it'd be ashame if you damaged those skilled coin-manipulating mitts of yours. Thanks for the comment on the ring but unfortunately it's de-charged at the moment.

Tristan O'
Message: Posted by: James Harrison (May 31, 2004 11:22AM)

You gots to bring the ring to the meet. You should defiantly do a ring and string routine with it.

It would be awesome to to use with patter. Then somehow change the color of the rope to yellow then say the trick won't work now.

(Man I'm such a geek with comics)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 1, 2004 03:09PM)
Thank you so much for chatting with me! I cannot even say how grateful I am to you for doing this. Ö

As to my situation, heh, I don't make that kind of money. I make $1500 a month tops. This guy who is paying me to cheat is only calling me to games about once a month. He also asks that I do not cheat for anyone else. That's the part I don't like... I simply cannot make enough from him and yet he doesn't want me to use my skills anywhere else.

I've read your advice on greed and I understand you perfectly! I've been doing this professionally for only 5 months so I consider myself a novice. I'll learn.

I have an interesting question... have you ever played against a cheat and you found out about it? Last time I played, I caught the guy second dealing but didn't say anything at all. I just cheated better than him. What do you do in these situations? Do you accuse other person of cheating or just let it slide? I think it's better to be non confrontational but then again, they'll just blatantly cheat more and more if you don't do anything. You know what I mean??

Thank you my friend!

****I'm accepting you as my studentÖ

I will not be teaching you any moves at least I don't know yet and you will learn from me as I learned from my teacher; and this is the way he taught me but it was over the phone.

Nick your situation is not a difficult situation but then again it is. Why? It all depends on your needs. Re-read what I wrote about in Need More? Did you make enough money to satisfy that need? Do you need more money right now for something? Can you wait until another time to get it?

Once you answer these here questions you can decide what you want to do?

If he pays you $500 to cheat for him and 10% of the winnings, that mean that he has made $10,000 from your skill and only gave you 10% which is $1,000. You are being robbed $4,500 each time you play for him. How? That money is suppose to be split 50/50 which is an even split of $5,000 a piece right down the middle. Why? He has the games and he puts up the money, which compensates for your skill and time that you took to learn how to cheat.

Since you have been doing this for 5 months and has received about $1,500 each month; this means at 10% that he has won about $10,000 each month each time he played which is $50,000. Since 50% of that was yours, which is $5,000 each for each of the 5 months, he has not only robbed the people, he has robbed you of your share for about $25,000. If you subtract the $500 up front money for playing 5 months, which equal $2,500, he owes you $22,500. This is Greed on his behalf because money is his god and he doesn't care how he gets it. He was not honest with you. As I said in my post they will lie and say anything to get what they want.

By him talking to you, he knew you was green (didn't know and was a sucker to this) and verbally manipulated you into accepting the $500 and 10% of what he won. Since you verbally agreed to this, according to him in which he's right, you agreed to give him your $22,500 because of your need or greed for the $500 and the 10%. This is why you hear of singers, songwriters, boxers etc. getting robbed because they agreed and signed messed up contracts because of trust, need and greed; now this is why THE CROSS exist, to get even for a guy who cheated or robbed you for your money.

I have an interesting question... have you ever played against a cheat and you found out about it? Yes

Last time I played, I caught the guy second dealing but didn't say anything at all. I just cheated better than him. What do you do in these situations?

Donít say anything. The chances are that this guy will be one of your friends later on in life. In the gambling world, the motto is ďEverybody Got to Eat.Ē Question, even though you might be better than him, have you ever thought that he saw you cheating first and didnít say anything? Letís say that you did tell on him and now he turns and tell on you and for the last 5 months you and your friend has beaten these guys out of about $55,000. What do you think is going to be your outcome or income from that point on; nothing? Remember, Mind your business and you live longer.

Do you accuse other person of cheating or just let it slide? You let it slide.

I think it's better to be non confrontational. Correct answer.

They'll just blatantly cheat more and more if you don't do anything. You know what I mean? Yes they will cheat blatantly just like youíre doing.

If he cheats YOU out of a pot all you say to him is, you see how much this pot is ($1,000) and say, I just put $375 in it but I canít win; you can take it. You just told the guy without words that you cheated me in this pot and Iím not going to tell and rank you here but I have to have my $375 back.

But the best solution to this is not to play cards and to fold your hand when he deals like you donít know. One more thing, when hustlers think they know something and theyíre just not sure, they will give you a look to see if youíre a hustler, just look away like you didnít know that anything just happened. Do not confirm to them that youíre a cheat. They are not sure and is just fishing for information.

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 1, 2004 03:20PM)
Hi Doc,

If you're hustling in a card game would you ever use the 'Erdnase' grip or 'frame the deck'(two fingers round front)?

Do you think it is too much of a give away?

Have you ever seen another hustler using it

thanks in advance!
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 1, 2004 03:36PM)
I wrote about this in my Strike Second Dealing Post which was taken down but to answer your question no. I would never use the grip because of card dectives and people who are Jap-Wise about the grip; I second, center and bottom all the from the same grip.

I would like to state for the record, I have seen seconds and bottoms done from all the different hand grips and in the hands of each expert, each move was done perfectly.

I only recommend the natural grip because the suckers use this grip, how did you hold the deck before you was taught this grip and you don't want any card detectives or Jap-Wise guys detecting you as soon as you hold a deck in your hands to play.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 1, 2004 04:05PM)
You say you use the Walter Scott second deal. do you use his bottom deal 2?

When people speak about 'fast company'
how fast does this generally mean. Does it mean other hustlers who do the moves and can spot the slights or just players who know the moves.

What's the fastest company you've been in?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 1, 2004 06:39PM)
Do I use Walter's second deal grip yes but I don't believe that I use his bottom deal grip hand position. As I mentioned earlier, I use the same hand position for all of my deals.

Fast company is the 90% of Jap-Wise hustler's that I mentioned in a previous topic that seen the moves once or twice but can't do it. You need to re-read the 90% and The Magicians Have Been Lied To post. I stated that most were bums and a magician can run rings around them. So why are you still asking me this question? Oh I know why? You're still believing that Magician's Lie about most cheats being experts. Wake-up.

I'm sorry for being blunt and direct, but I'm not writing these posts for nothing; read between the lines and pay attention to details.

The fastest company I've been in was mentioned in a previous post and the names were mentioned when I went to Steve's house and "The Best of the Best met up" to practice and they wasn't cheaters, I was.

Why Iím Not Tooting My Horn

I'm the best overall cheat that I've seen to this date. Steve is definitely better but he's not a card cheat. To any that think that I'm tooting my horn well I'm not, I have not met any black card cheats at my level as of yet. I am not saying that there is none out there but I haven't met any. Everyone that I did meet had 2 or 3 specialties and that was it.

I believe that since I was brain washed like many of you here are about how every card cheat was an expert like Walter Scott, Dad Stevenís, and Erdnase etc. I practiced to reach this level and when I started to travel to meet these legends that I heard about who cheat, I found out that these guys who I respected because of their reputation ranked lower than an average beginning card magician.

To my surprise I was hurt at seeing this and so I traveled to meet others because I thought it was just this guy and when I did, I saw the same things from the others. Donít get me wrong, some of these guys were okay but if a magician were taught the same move, by the end of the week that magician would have improved upon that same move 10 fold. This is what I did, this is why Iím at this forum learning and the magicians are my teachers and this is the reason why Iím at this level.

Bottom Line: Iím nothing but a Michael Ammar card cheat whose stage is the card table who believed a lie made up by magicians and magician writers to make their audience or readers believe that they were experts like the cheats they were trying to expose.

My Concluding Summary: I was a magician like many of you who was fooled by lies and only found out through much practice and experience that when I went out to meet these so called cheating legends, they wasnít expert card manipulators like Steve, Sal, Darwin, Andrew, Jason, Gene, Wesley, Rod, Damian, Paul, Frank Garcia etc. they were low level wanna-be-magicians who at best can do a push off second and a bottom deal in which their fingers drop so low that you can see it a mile away.

Note: All those that are an exception to this rule, I have them on video tape teaching me their specialties; and thatís not many. Iím sorry to bust a lot a bubbles and myths about us cheats being experts but that the facts as I see it so far amongst the black card cheats and some whites that I have met throughout my travels.

I hope that this has been eye opening to some of you.

Your Friend


The Down Side of Cheating

As I sat in the gambling spot a couple of nights ago trying to get a game for some chump change, an associate of mine who owns the club comes in. He talks about how he doesnít want anyone messing up the area where he has his girlfriendís poster who just recently passed. As the gamblers tolerate this guys messed up attitude not a word is said regarding it.

As the owner goes towards his slot machines to start collecting his money one of the guys who was just recently playing the machine starts to argue with him regarding how his machines were rigged and it cheated him out his money. The owner knew that this was true but tried to shun the conversation. This man is going to make Red and the club members see that heís wrong so he pulls out his gun and threatens him that if he donít give him his money back that heís gonna have a problem.

The owner tries to defend himself by saying that his machine was okay but that he was a sore loser. The man proves to those standing around in the club that the machine was rigged. As this is going on the owner gets ****ed off and goes home to get his gun. As the owner comes back to try to show that he wasnít a punk he draws his gun. As the gamblers scatter leaving the club, none made an effort to try to stop the argument and to tell them to calm down.

All of a sudden, shots rang out, pow pow pow, then you hear pow pow. Then another pow pow. Pow pow. Then all you heard was silence as we stood outside the gambling spot on 123rd between Lenox and 7th Avenue. As we slowly enter both guys are lying on the floor on opposite sides of the room almost dead from shooting each other. Check the news for NYC Manhattan and see.

Red (71 yrs old) who was mourning the death of his girlfriend who died two months ago was now about to join her as the blood piled up around him. Why wouldnít he give Pint (51 yrs old) his money back and keep on hustling and getting money? Was this worth dying? Greed and pride are two dangerous guys to keep as your friends. Now because of pride, greed, ego and stupidity, both are now dead and neither can use the money that they argued over where they are going. May God bless their soul?

All I can do now is hope as they laid dying in Harlem Hospital that they made their peace with God.

This is just one more reason why I want to leave the gambling life alone.

Just Remembering Friends

Message: Posted by: James Foster (Jun 9, 2004 09:09AM)
Brief notice here:


Sorry to hear about your friends, Doc.

All the best,

Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jun 9, 2004 05:03PM)
It is a sad story Doc...

In the last Dai Vernon book that Bruce Cervon wrote it talks about people that would short change people at the carnivals. If a customer thought that they were short changed and they squacked. They would give the customer their money and say my misstake.

I have known a few people that advantage played at the card table. In a conversation with a family friend that was both a pool shark and a card shark that my parents knew.

In fact he got his house by playing cards. he told me that in the games that he used to be in that money wasn't worth getting killed over.

If someone thought he cheated he would refund the money but wouldn't play that person again. In fact if people squacked to much they would not be asked to play if there was a game in town.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 10, 2004 05:54AM)
Glen, what your friend said is so right, this is what Walter Scott wrote about too. You have to know how to control a situation. One day when I was new to cheating I used a peek in a blackjack game that was flawless in a 3-way mirror but was horrible from another position. Everybody from my left hand side and the front could not see the move but it was clear to anyone sitting on my right hand side.

After dealing everybody a hand I peeked the top two cards when placing the deck on the table. The guy on my right hand side who worked for an armored truck company who had his gun at his side said, ďhey whatís up with that?Ē I realized that he saw what I did and I said ďjust hold up for one minuteĒ but he tried to squawk again and I saidĒ hold on partner, I know I owe you money and Iím gonna pay you.Ē

After I beat the guys in the pot for the blackjack money, I said hereís $200 and he shut up; after I won the other deal for a large sum of money I said now hereís your other $300; so are we even now? He said yeah while smiling and counting his money. This guy lost about $60 in the game when he saw me do that peek move but he had a big gun, he was big and I didnít know how mad he would have got after knowing he was being cheated.

This was the day that I realized my error in practicing in a 3-way mirror that Frank Garcia gave me before he passed. After changing the angel of the mirror that night and seeing my mistake, I went out the very next day with the money I won and had a 5-way mirror made which exposed all angles. In this mirror I could see 10 different positions; all positions that anyone at a card table could see if they would sit down.

Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jun 10, 2004 06:34AM)
But when the guy said it to you, how did the other players react?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 10, 2004 07:36AM)
I am not sure how I would react if I saw someone cheat. I think I would say nothing and try and use it to my advantage, if I could. If I could not, I think I would stop playing and go away and think about it. I think it would depend on if I were in the pot. I think I would regard it as a challenge and try and cheat the cheater. I have never really given it a thought before. Being a guy who roots for the bad guys in the movies I think I would be most reluctant to expose him. If he was not very good, I think I would just regard it as an insult and give him a crack with whatever came to hand on the spot.

I have been in many a game where collusion betting is going on but never have I seen manipulation of the cards but that is not to say it has never happened in a game that I was at. I have been in games where the odd ace etc was found to have been marked in play in a way made to look accidental. I have played in a casino poker game where it was spotted and exposed that the Aces and Kings in the pack were a slightly different shade as they had come from a different pack. In all these instances no one did much apart from scream and make fuss.
Message: Posted by: Elputty (Jun 10, 2004 10:27AM)
I just want to say that DOC really knows his stuff. When he was online more in the past I learned so much about gambling type moves. He was kind enough to post some clips at one time, and he truly was amazing.

Glad to see you're still around DOC.

Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jun 10, 2004 11:32AM)
If I was playing poker and saw one of the players cheat I would get up and leave the game. I wouldn't say a word.

The reason is that arguments can happen if someone is accused of cheating. And from the arguments people can get hurt.

The only time I would blow a cheater's cover would be if it were my JOB to do so such as being employed as an eye in the sky in a casino.

Unless you have the cheating move on tape or a camera shot - cheating can be a very hard thing to prove...

If cheating would happen to me in a friendly game I would be frendly and get up and cash in and leave. Because there is always another game...
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 10, 2004 11:43AM)
Tielie can't you tell from my story that the other guys did not see or catch anything and therefore did not understand what was he was talking about?

Did someone ever say something or did a trick and it went over your head until someone explained it to you? I know this answer is yes because this is why this thread exist. Because of your lack in knowledge about the punch deal, you thought that I could not possibly have been the real thing until Jason England and others clarified this for you.

Read my previous post about when I saw a guy who got cheated by another guy by turning the deck over on him and I didn't say a word "You mind your business and you live longer."

Would you shut your mouth for $200 and you only invested $60 and then while you was counting your money this same person hands you $300 more?

Bottom Line. I was between a rock and a hard place and I had to think fast; besides after he took the money I gave him, I could have said that he was down with the action giving me time to try to run.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 10, 2004 11:44AM)
I wouldn't say anything either. I read a saying some where, which went a little like...

the cheater will argue that he didn't cheat because hes got a honest reputation to uphold. It's not always the cheat who gets his.

I think it was from a Buckley book, not sure
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 10, 2004 12:00PM)
Tommy you did the right thing and you also spotted two different deck colors. Sometimes card cheats take two different decks because of different color inks and use this as marked cards. This is amature cheating but it works if a person such as yourself is not at the table to expose it.

Note: These cards could have been made by placing them in the sun for a certain amount of time until the color faded or they could have been using rough and smooth cards.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jun 10, 2004 12:01PM)
I also think that Doc plays in places that are very rough. If someone is acused of cheating or caught cheating in some of those places - it could be life risking to say it mildly.

Carl who was a card player that took advantage and also was a pool shark told me a story about playing cards at a place that there were guns on the bar and at some of the tables in easy reach.

I think Doc is right about having nerves of steel... In order to make a living at playing cards...
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 10, 2004 12:10PM)
Glen thanks for posting that but to keep it real readers, I don't have nerves of steel, I do what I have to.

I love God with all my heart soul but I'm in no rush to meet Him if I have to die; I'm scared.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jun 10, 2004 12:15PM)
Well Doc you have more than I have. I wouldn't be caught dead - as a matter of fact I would be caught dead... If I did what you do as a way of putting food on the table.
Message: Posted by: RazzleDazzle (Jun 10, 2004 01:01PM)
DOC, for sake of arguing, do you think that the position you put yourself in night in and night out is worth risking your life? How about the father of your children not being around to see them grow up? In your years of this trade, you have developed very smart tactics to staying out of trouble but doesn't the slim chance that something could happen make you want to get out of it? Only reason I am posting this is because I am a new father and I would do ANYTHING for my children, but would really have to take a hard look if the profession was possibly life threatening. This thread has been a wonderful read and I hope that we are able to continue to hear your stories and advice!

Message: Posted by: Elknase (Jun 10, 2004 03:14PM)
Dear Doc,

As I read your posts, I learned to appreciate your knowledge and experience as a Card Expert. And I hope that one day, God shows you another way to make a living for the sake of the fact that you are a beloved person by your family and your friends. How do I know? What else for do you put your life on the line but make a living for the family you love?

It's up to you. It's your choice.
It's your decision to use your potential this way.

If there is no another way to use your talents you have to do what you feel is right. And it's simple like the feeling that tells you that you have to do it.

But things change. You know you have the potential and you determine the direction where you apply your talents.

Sometimes one has to forgive the past and appreciate the future.

One cannot change the world but one can change himself and all of a sudden - like magic - the world has changed.

You don't have to be street magician, gambling consultant, writer, researcher, game programmer, card detective because you are yourself in harmony with what you feel is right. Probably ...

The best man in the world according to your wife.
The best dad in the world according to your children.
The best of it according to DOC.

And I really hope that God shows you another choice.
Sometimes one has to look twice to perceive it.
May you find the patience to look twice.
Nothing is impossible.

But if you have no other choice to make a living ...

I'm reminded of a paragraph found in HAGAKURE (The Book Of The Samurai):

[i]The Way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that dying without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or death, it is not necessary to gain one's aim.
We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaining one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way. His whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling.[/i]

All the best for you.


Message: Posted by: hitmouse (Jun 11, 2004 09:14AM)
On 2004-06-10 16:14, Elknase wrote:
I'm reminded of a paragraph found in HAGAKURE (The Book Of The Samurai):

[i]The Way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that dying without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or death, it is not necessary to gain one's aim.
We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaining one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way. His whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling.[/i]

All the best for you.



Are you aware of what happened to Yukio Mishima, the bloke who wrote "On Hagakure"?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 11, 2004 09:32AM)
It seems that cheating in a casino as opposed to a private game might hold more risk of being captured but may hold less risk of being physically hurt these days.

I was watching TV the other day and they went into a prison in Las Vegas. The place was full of cheats of one kind or another. They said the penalties were harsh but I am not sure what the length of the sentences was. The main job in there was sorting playing cards. It occurred to me that these guys in there must get well educated on methods of cheating and get plenty of time to practice, a sort of university of cheats.
But I am drifting from the point. So does anyone know the maximum sentence for cheating at cards? That being in a court, I know the sentence in a private game could range from a strange look to the death penalty.

It was not me who spotted and exposed the difference in the shaded cards. It was some young guy with very good eyesight and more honest than me to be fair to him.
I think I would have kept my lips tightly shut if I had noticed them and used the knowledge to my advantage.
Thanks for the tip on the sun bleached cards.
I have worked as a printer in the past and can tell you that in printing it is almost impossible, no matter how stringent the process, to print a big job all the exact same colour. In particular if the job is printed on different days as even humidity can affect the process. Also the printing plates do not last forever and are changed for new ones and although they are made photographically a slight over or under exposure of the plate can affect the image. It might be a very subtle change and a good eye to spot it. My eyesight is not what it used to be. I in fact found it difficult to distinguish the difference in colour in the casino game I mentioned even after it was pointed out to me. I was amazed that this young kid had spotted it in play. It only became apparent to me that the kid was right after some time of studying the cards away from the table.
I might have spotted them when I was younger and my eyesight was first rate. I thought my eyesight was ok at the time but went to the opticians as a result of the experience. They said I did not need glasses yet but told me the glasses have not been invented that can give you the eyesight of your childhood.

May I ask another question Doc. I have asked this question at another place here but no one seems to know or does not want to tell. You might not know or might not wish to say and that is no problem. I read in Phantoms at the Card Table an item by Steve Forte. It described a process of softening a plastic Kem card. I have tried this by the process described in the book and I can not make it work. So the question, does this work and if so is there a process other than the one described in the book. I ask this because the source of the information seems good. As a poker player who plays in games where Kems are used almost exclusively, I am very concerned at the implications for my own protection against being cheated by this dastardly ploy.

Please forgive me rambling on.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 11, 2004 10:15AM)

DOC, for sake of arguing, do you think that the position you put yourself in night in and night out is worth risking your life?


No but those who donít live the life sometimes view what they see in movies or on T.V. to be an exaggeration.


How about the father of your children not being around to see them grow up?


My children are old enough now. My oldest is 27 years old. I have Cosby kids. They donít do drugs, smoke nor drink, theyíre Jehovahís Witnesses even though I donít care for their teachings.


In your years of this trade, you have developed very smart tactics to staying out of trouble but doesn't the slim chance that something could happen make you want to get out of it?


Yes and No.

I say yes because this is not how God wants us to earn an income. He wants a man to have an honest job like many of yaíll have.

The slim chance that something can happen to you can happen anywhere. Iím glad I went into the lionís den (gambling) for a number of reasons. One is to preach to those who needed to hear a good word at the right time who would have never gone to church to hear it and to warn many of you here at this forum who have a desire to cheat what awaits you.

A Wrong Misconception

Iím glad that I got into gambling because it has taught me a lot. Many think that gambling is all-bad and itís not. Why? Do you remember the show Cheerís? Well itís true that people want to go where everybody knows their name. There are advantages and disadvantages to this lifestyle; I know all the criminals and hustlers and I can get whatever I want when I want it. Everybody who do everything comes in a gambling spot to sell stuff etc. especially boosters. You donít get robbed by them because you know them already.

Have any of you ever been homeless? Well you can come out of jail and be homeless and go to a gambling spot that you know and sleep. You can make money by going to the store for guys and getting them something to eat or drink. You can be a doorman or clean up man and make $60 a day (8 hrs).

At a gambling spot you can hear stories like you hear from me from the old timers and the young thugs that will make you wonder and laugh. As a matter of fact yesterday the cops tried to run up in the gambling spot and the guys who were gambling saw this on the monitor and went out the back window and jumped a whole flight down from the second floor. Some had warrants and some just didnít want to go down town to central booking.

I stayed in the club calmly because I learned from being in the white gambling establishments in Rochester NY that the cops really canít do anything. They came in with the permission of the owner and looked around to see how things were and they just left. These Italians and Turks had guns on them but the cops didnít do anything but look around and left.

Back to the Club

Some of the guys that jumped into the alleyway hurt themselves from the second story jump; I found this out after everybody came back to the club laughing after the cops left. The cops never came into the gambling spot because we didnít let them in and besides, they caught most of the guys who jumped out the window in the alleyway stuck on fences while trying to climb over. One of my friends lost his eyeglasses as he jumped and ran. Can you picture 50 and 60 year old men jumping from the second floor?

Gambling Spots Is A Home Away From Home

When I went to Orlando to play for a guy who so-called hired me to win I stayed at his house for a couple of days until we went to Dade County. We gambled at this spot and won a couple of hundred dollars and split it. Unknown to me I didnít know that he was a compulsive gambler of dog races. He left me at the club and went to gamble and lost his share of the money. When he came back he asked to borrow a hundred dollars in which I gave him. When he left the next day and did the same thing and came back to borrow more money from me I said no.

Why did I do that? He got upset with me when I didnít give it to him, this is when I found out that he lost his on the dog races. He wanted to pay me back. He left me at the gambling spot on my own and drove back to Orlando and moved. I stayed at the gambling spot sleeping in a back room or where ever I could for a couple of days. I gave the club owner money everyday from my winnings.

When this guy came back he gave some lame excuse and drove me to Pompano where he tried to team up with some people to break me. After I seen that he wasnít doing what he was suppose to do as a partner I beat the every body at the table including him by myself.
In anger he said that he wanted me broke because I didnít give him my money. I told him that if 4 of him were a team that they still couldnít break me. He now gets mad again and leaves me in Pompano where I didnít know anyone. A girl who was at the game took me to her house in Miami or Ft. Lauderdale I canít remember now and I stayed with her. She didnít mind cause she liked me and I was giving her money from the money I was winning.

When he drove to Miami to pick me up, I didnít know that he still had it in for me so he took me back to Dade County and left me at the gambling spot again. After I called a girl who I met in Orlando while at his house, she told me that she saw him the other day moving cause he got put out of his house. This is when I found out where he was going those days he left me.

You know that guy sold my clothes that I had left at his house in Orlando?

One More Reason Iím Glad That I Gamble

This morning after leaving the club when I came home I checked my emails etc. and went to sleep. This morning when I woke up around 6:30 A.M. because I was thirsty, I see my mother lying between the washing machine and the counter unconscious because her sugar dropped too low. Yes my mom is a diabetic. If I was on the road or had a job to go to, I wouldnít have been home to help my mother get her sugar back to gain consciousness.

This has happened way more than once which I care not to talk about but Iíve come to realize today that I wonít be going back on the road again, if itís my lot to be broke just to keep my mom alive, I will. My mom is my world and I love her.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: RazzleDazzle (Jun 11, 2004 10:31AM)
I truly appreciate your candid responses to my questions! I hope all is well with your family.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 11, 2004 04:38PM)
To any magicians or gamblers who have time to spare, I'll be at Maui Taco's tomorrow (June 12) around 3:15 to show some stuff to a friend. If you're in the neighborhood stop by and say hi to me.

Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jun 11, 2004 10:26PM)
I Feel bad....I can't make it tomorrow to the city. Do you ever get out to Long Island ?

Magically yours,
Message: Posted by: LeConte (Jun 11, 2004 11:37PM)

Are you afraid that someone who played cards with you and lost in the past might read your post and show up at Maui Taco's seeking revenge of some sort?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 12, 2004 04:34AM)
LeConte to answer your question no. You are still living in T.V. land. I be around people that I've cheated every day and when they find out through snitches that I'm good, they suck it up as a loss and don't play me any more.

What many fail to realize is that everybody whose hustling know that there is always someone out there better or luckier than them. How can they squawk when they get beat and smile when they cheat and win; it's all apart of hustling. There are cases that you've mentioned but they are rare.

This is what hustlers call street education or surviving. College is good but have you ever heard of an educated fool? To be book smart is one thing but to be street smart is another. Have you ever heard that it is better to be wise than rich? A wise man can trick a rich person out of his money this is why there's another saying, "a fool with money is soon to part."

A gambling spot is not only for hustling, it's a school in which we go to to learn. When a person goes to college they may have a major and a minor that they successfully learn while in school; in the streets you have many majors and many minors and classes go on every day for the rest of your life. This is why the older people let things slide, they know that you don't get old being no fool.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Elknase (Jun 12, 2004 04:53AM)
Are you aware of what happened to Yukio Mishima, the bloke who wrote "On Hagakure"?

No. What happened to Yukio Mishima?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 12, 2004 05:01AM)
Tommy to answer your question about the Kem Cards, I really don't know but if Steve said it, you can count on it being true. Remember what I posted in my previous post, "everybody has their specialties and this is not one of mine."

I do know that by punch dealing and dealing rough and smooth that this might be the same technique but adapted to Kem Cards. The heat from the iron should make the wanted cards much smoother to the touch and this is all the difference a cheat needs if he's dealing seconds.

Bottom Line: I really don't know the answer to this question but I will take this information and store it in my memory bank just in case one day when all my markings for Kem Cards fail, I will consider using this technique.

Tommy just for argument sake, if this is going on where you're gambling at, do you think that any one is going to give you your money back? This also means without words that you are not capable of catching a second deal because this technique is associated with that ruse. A word to the wise, a little knowledge can be dangerous this is why cheats don't teach or talk. If this has happened to you, keep your mouth shut and put an H on your chest and HANDLE IT cause you are not going to get your money back.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 12, 2004 12:39PM)
Thank you Doc.

I accept what you say.

Erdnase said

"There is one way by which absolute protection against unknown advantage may be assured, that is by never playing for money. But a perfect understanding of the risks may aid greatly in lessening the casualties. An intimate acquaintance with the modus operandi of card table artifice does not necessarily enable one to detect the manipulation...."

I like playing poker for money and so take the risk of being cheated. On the advice of Erdnase, I have studied the risks for many years and in the process acquired skills to be better acquainted with the modus operandi of card table artifice. It is not the things I know that worry me so much as the unknown. It is not what I might have lost in the past but what I might lose in the future that is of concern. The ironing of a Kem card to soften it for information purposes rather than manipulation was new to me. It was a very scary item to read for me as I think it would be difficult to spot easy to do and very effective in play. It certainly was something that got my attention. In my opinion it is the best artifice heard of in years. It is so simple that it is brilliant, if it works.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 15, 2004 06:33AM)
Wanting Something For Nothing

To those of you who are sending me private messages wanting the easy road to Utopia I just want to say that there is one but you wonít find it over here. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Tiger Woods didn't get to where they are at today because it was handed to them. They spent hours practicing and studying to achieve their goal.

Anything that you want in life thatís worth something doesnít come cheap, you have to work for it, stop looking for handouts. Don't you know how many of us magicians and gamblers go out a buy products that we think is going to make us better and find out that the trick/book, gimmick or video was garbage. This is wasted money that we've worked hard for.

When learning how to cheat at cards, I not only had to buy books but I stole books and pages out of books to learn what I thought I needed to know. I found out later that the information that I thought I needed wasn't good enough for the card table. This was definitely not the right thing to do but I did it and you want a hand out instead of buying wrong books and videos like we all did in our past, who do you think you are?

I got suitcases and bags of junk that I don't even need because I bought this stuff searching for knowledge about things to invent for card cheating. I kissed butt, slept in cheesy hotels, on the floor, went to magic meetings to meet magicians who knew little or nothing about gambling to learn and you don't want to spend a little extra cash to buy videos or books.

I spent an untold amount of hours learning stuff that didn't work. I bought camcorders, a laptop, movie making equipment to capture this stuff and traveled across the country with all this heavy extra baggage which cost extra to carry on a plane to find people in order to video tape and learn cheating moves and you don't even want to put out a little extra money to buy books that people have spent years writing, practicing and doing? *** I heard of being cheap but this takes the cake.

I could only wish I could've spent the extra money you're talking about on buying the books that you've just mentioned; I would've saved days, years, late nights up practicing bull****, staying in scary towns and hotels to meet cheats and video taping them and loads of money. You've got it real easy and still don't even appreciate what's given to you.

If you want to be the best or good at anything, you've got to put in time, money and practicing long hours when you don't even want to, to achieve your goal.

I don't mean to sound harsh but those are the facts.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Samuel (Jun 15, 2004 09:10AM)
I want to thank you, Mr. Doc.

Both on PM (yes, I admit publically that I pm'd you) and on posts you have proven to be a great teacher. You are wise in your teaching, by not giving us the free roads to - as you say - Utopia, but by letting us know how real hustlers got the knowledge, and how lucky we alreay have been.

A good teacher never shows the path - he just points at it and lets the student go there him self.

I consider you a great teacher, and by this I again thank you.

Your New Friend


Posted: Jun 15, 2004 10:52am

Previously there is mentioned vids (I think) of Doc's performances or sleights.

Is it possible to obtain those still, or are they lost?
Message: Posted by: ASW (Jun 15, 2004 09:58AM)
No, they are lost.

(Or better be). Right, Doc?
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jun 15, 2004 04:28PM)
That's too bad. I'd really want to see them. When I come back from vacation, I'm going to buy one of the steve forte tapes. Probably the one on false shuffling.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 15, 2004 04:32PM)
Yeh, I got all four.

They really are amazing.

And he was only about 28 when he did them!

There is an issue of Genii coming out soon with info on Steve Forte, that is something to look forward too.
Message: Posted by: Cruise (Jun 15, 2004 05:12PM)
One thing I think would suck to be in the "inner circle" is the way people act like they own you

I think its sad people don't want to put in the work to learn things they want to know. complain about the cost of the things that really are good and forget trying to invent something on your own. well I think its funny. even if I have to reinvent the wheel I learn more about the workings of those things in trial an error try it some time. think about what you need to be able to do and find your own way.

I do think it is too bad they wont let doc even show what he can do. I don't mean teach but just show this expert at work... too sad.

I also want to say that just from reading Docs posts and he answered a question for me but the way he is makes him a class act in my book and I respect him for being an expert and how he deals with us annoying folk
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 15, 2004 06:06PM)
Hey all ya'll thanks for writing. Samuel I wasn't talking about you but you did learn something and expressed it in a way that is very pleasing to my heart, that's what a teacher wants. Striving to be the best and reading between the lines is what you magicians have to learn.

I mentioned in one of my post about the punch dealÖI wrote the question to the answer to every question that you needed in order to make the punch and no one even researched it. B mean Ballpoint and S means Sharp etc. If you would have went to a needle store you have found this out but many of yaíll are too lazy to do some research for yourself. The only thing that comes to a sleeper or a lazy person is a dream. Yes you dream about being a great magician or card sharp but donít want to put in any hard work to get there. This is why yaíll marvel at the great magicians and why the top magicians block yaíll from learning the expert moves. The magicianís problem is not learning the moves itís doing the research to get to that point.

Samuel my videos are not lost but as I mentioned to this forum there are codes and regulations you have to follow once you reach a certain magician level status which I must abide by.

Mr. Devol they are lostÖ

Kukram Iím glad that you purchased the Steve Forte Tapes and posted your review of the quality of his moves here so that those who donít want to believe me would believe you instead.

Tielie stop being lazy cause you can be an excellent student. Donít forget you are the student who inquired about me and this is the reason why Iím here; itís because of you.

Cruise you are right but there is a good side and a bad side. All the experts are willing to share with you their inventions and techniques that theyíve spent time perfecting over the years as you share yours and in the interim you can learn at an alarming rate.

Maui Taco's

I went to Maui Tacoís this weekend and had a good time with the young magicians, The older ones were there too who I spoke to but the younger ones didnít act like they was all stuck up. Donít get me wrong the older guys didnít act stuck up but they seem to forget when they were in their youth and inquiring. We are not suppose to forget where we came from and besides Iíve learned that I can learn from anybody, the old as well as the young.

I taught these 6 kids and adults how to do the strike second deal in a matter of 15 to 20 minutes. Some learned in a shorter time then the others but the others had it down pack enough so that when they practice it at home the next day they would have it. The adults that I taught increased their skill 10 fold in a matter of a couple of hours. I stayed with the kids from 3:45 until about 9:00 P.M. and I continued with the two adults until about 1:30 A.M. in the morning.

Oh one more thing, I saw one of my teachers (Wesley James) while I was there and even though Iím at this level, a student such as myself is always suppose to give honor respect and credit to his teacher in which I did out loud to all who was listening. He smiled when I said this and then started showing me some more moves that I never saw before in which he let me videotape him doing. Thanks Mr. Wesley James it was an honor and still an honor as having you as one of my teachers.

Your Friend and Student


P.S. When you close your mind thinking that you're so good that no one can show you anything that's the point where you've become a fool. You can learn from anyone.
Message: Posted by: Metalepsis (Jun 15, 2004 06:56PM)
If you play travelers (cross roads in your own slang), here is a cooler move to burn the whole room. Sometimes you catch the bottom card on someone else's shuffle right?
Grab his hands and get someone else to hold the deck. Tell them to split it into four parts. Watch where that bottom (or other card you knew) went. Now get someone to deal the bottom card from each pack. (I think you know where this is going). Announce these cards are marked and name them all correctly (I am sure you can see how). Now you can leave while they start arguing...you can even take some of their money for cheating you. This is best if you let someone win some back a hand or two before...

You aren't the only one from a tough area, and if you think NY is tough you should see Belfast. People lose kneecaps with techniques like these.

Peace for you and your kids.
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Jun 15, 2004 07:15PM)

I wish I was in the US but unfortunately I am over the water in the UK...

I would have loved to come along and see you in action. I wish I had seen your post on the second deal before it had been removed.

I am putting together a list of resources to get from your posts. Thank you for sharing this information with us!

Your attitude is also very refreshing for someone that knows so much.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 15, 2004 08:32PM)
Metalepsis and Salsa Dancer thanks for writing me. I guess Bellfast is rough too but I'm not into getting anyone else hurt because I wouldn't want that done to me.

Your Friend


Picture this scenario you steal a card from the game and all of a sudden someone picks up the deck to count the cards while you have that card. That person counts 51 cards and now you take the deck from him adding the card back to the deck and counting 51 cards, now you hand the deck to someone else to count the deck and he counts 52.

Who are they going to look at? LOL

Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jun 15, 2004 09:22PM)
A trick I always used to use when I was younger was to tell the people I played with that I was a magician. Since most gamblers like magic, they asked me to do a card trick.

I then picked some of the worst and easy to catch card tricks I knew.

That way when someone walked by and said "don't play cards with him....he is a magician" ... the people in the game would say "we know...we know" ... because they think I am a poor magician.

I thought some of you would like this rouse!

Magically yours,
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 15, 2004 09:53PM)
One day while I was gambling playing Knock Rummy an old girlfriend of mine who I grew up with came in and said hi Houdini. My real name is Eric which is also Houdin's real name and my mouth just dropped open.

I played it off by saying hi and huggin' the girl while whispering to her these people don't know that I do magic tricks.

Laymen do not know that a person whose a magician can't do all magic tricks, they believe that a magician can do anything he wants with a deck of cards. This is why I don't show magic tricks any more because someone will unknowingly say what's up magic man and blow my cover as a cheat.

Magically Yours,


Posted: Jun 15, 2004 11:42pm

I just want to state for thse record today one of my young students that I helped Saturday has made a punch and has now updated me on a substance that will help me out better and be 10 times easier to use than what I'm already using.

I told you that you can learn from anyone and this student by asking me questions and me answering him has just updated the Doctor on something that's been out but is knew to me.

I'm happy, it just makes me one more step better than I was yesterday.

Magically Yours

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 16, 2004 03:48AM)
Hi doc,

Wish I could of come to that session with the others but I'm in the uk so its not possible.

Iknow you specialise in the second deal and punch but what do you think on using the tabled faro in a game to stack the deck.

Is it a bit risky because some might see its perfect or would it be a good move to use.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this move.

thanks doc!
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 16, 2004 04:38AM)
Kukram you and many magicians here have to realize something. Evey move that's invented for the card table was invented for the lack of ability to do another move. Example why would a person who can Cold Deck sit at a table and try to get two sets of hands together on top of a deck in order to do a faro shuffle when he can do one move and give the whole table a hand?

A Table Faro is the next best move to the cold deck for stacking a hand for more than one player but to me it's obsolete.

Why is it obsolete to you Doc?

Getting three cards together (Jacks) is 3 moves now when you place them on top of the deck and start your table faro that will be 2 more moves of perfect faroing to go to every 4th player now you have to beat the cut which is another move. That's 6 moves you have to do perfectly and that's not even counting the 3 cards you had to get together for the sucker.

If you just faro his cards to the first position, you will have to deal a second deal each time you want that first card to go to the second guy at the table which is 3 more moves. This is a total of 12 moves just to give one sucker a hand to win some money.

With a Cold Deck you go to the bathroom and set it up and come to the table and do one move and send the whole table a hand like in Ocean's 11 and go home.

The Table Faro is the next best thing to the cold deck. So the bottom line is, if you can't cold deck, the table faro is the next best thing to do to get the money.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 16, 2004 04:51AM)
Thanks doc,

Another great insight into the reality of card table artifice.
Simpler and quicker the better.

One more thing,if cold decking was too risky, What about rifflestacking.

In your opinion what would be the best move , riffle stacking or faroing?

Your thoughts are appreciated
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 16, 2004 05:47AM)
I rate riffle stacking and faroing exactly alike. They are just two different variants of shuffle work like the push off second and the strike second, they both accomplish the same thing but with different techniques.

Which ever you can do the best, do because your life will depend on it.

How can Cold Decking be more riskier than riffle stacking? Which sounds logical and less riskier to you doing 1 perfect move or doing 12 perfect moves?

I'll take my chances with one perfect move, you do what you like.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 16, 2004 06:10AM)
Point taken
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jun 16, 2004 06:54AM)
Howdy Doc et al,

Doc this is something that you've said all along, that you used to do a variety of moves at the table but came to realize that there is economy in being able to accomplish everything with ONE move and one move only. I imagine economy=more safety than non-economy. If it's ok to ask, do you carry a variety of decks on you in various conditions (to match the cards on the table)or do you take a deck off the table into the bathroom to stack it? My guess is the places you play at probably go through several packs a night. Pardon me for asking these questions if they're out of line.

I was going to ask you about using shiners (i recall you mentioned playing the light when Harry Lorayne walked in once, I think) but I see in another post you mentioned the Steve Forte tapes so I figure I'll get those and they'll have the info. I'm sure there's more info buried out there somewhere too.

I hope your mom is doing ok - I'm glad you were there to help her as you mentioned before.

your pal,
Tristan O'Malley
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 16, 2004 01:27PM)
Hey Mr. Tristan thanks for writing me and I hope all is well with you and your family.

Regarding your question about how many decks do I carry. I only carry two new decks, a red and a blue.

When I want to switch decks I just ask for a new one and it will match the ones that I have. If the deck gets a little dirty I will rub the deck on a floor to dirty the sides or take ashes from a ash tray and smear it on the sides.

Regarding shiners, I don't use the ones that you will see on the Steve Forte tapes. Even though the shiners you will see on his video will be great, do you really think that Steve broke the gambler's code and let the world know what's really out there?

He showed the gambling world enough to satisfy them but also showed enough to let the world know that he was the greatest card manipulator to date, but don't think that he showed you everything because he didn't; besides new moves are invented everyday and no one gets to see them all, this is why I amazed him and he amazed me.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jun 16, 2004 03:11PM)
Thanks for the info, Doc, I will study on it. You know I like to read between the lines on your posts.

Have a good day,
TJ (Tristan)
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jun 16, 2004 08:41PM)
Personally, I believe that riffle stacking is better than cold decking only because there is no evidence (ie. extra deck in the room) and riffle stacking can me used many times during a game.

However, you should try learning a Roman Shuffle riffle stack vs. an on the table riffle stack. This is because normal people shuffle in their hands vs. on the table like casinos. An in the hand stack is also more inocent since mot people shuffle that way.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.

Magically yours,
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Jun 16, 2004 10:35PM)

I have never been in a money game where somebody shuffles in the hand. The ONLY person I've seen shuffle in the hands in a game is my Mom and she does it Hindu styled (old school Asain thing). And we only play for dollars, so I'm not on her for it.

As far as the extra deck thing is concerned, I can't remember a game where there wasn't at least 5-6 decks available.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 16, 2004 11:41PM)
Jeff I see that you don't gamble...if you did, you would know that card hustler's always carry their tools (a deck of cards) with them. If I cold decked a game and was caught with cards on me, all I have to say is I play Rummy, Tonk or Coon Can which are head-up games that the blacks play all the time.

You're stuck on that magic book knowledge which is dead wrong. Besides I always cold deck on the sucker's deal. If anything does transpire all I have to say is that I didn't deal.

One more thing you should note in the gambling world, 9 out of 10 times if a guy is capable of figuring out what happened, he will not tell on me, he will pull me to the side and get his money back or team up with me and take me to other games where we can make money together. Hustler's always need new places to go. This is how we get our work.

Regarding your Roman Shuffle Riffle Stack, I never heard of it. I would love for you to let me see it in action one day. I do know how to cull on the fly but I can't give another person a hand while doing it. Don't get me wrong and think that I don't want to learn it, but what about the stick up guys that will be waiting for me outside when I'm ready to leave with the money? Even though it's a 70 to 30 ratio that it won't happen you always have to look out for that 30%.

Your Friend


Posted: Jun 17, 2004 1:07am

Rawdog thanks for writing.

I just want to state for the record that the way your mom shuffle (Hindu Shuffle) is the way most of the people shuffle from the islands or West Indies; they also brew the cards together. They split the deck into two halves and bend the cards hump back style and spring the two halves together on the table.

The blacks mostly shuffle the cards in their hands as Jeff just stated and use the overhand shuffle while the whites I believe use the table shuffle but don't quote me on this.

To be honest with you 9 out of 10 times I never see a table shuffle done unless I see it on T.V., at a casino or the magicians doing it. It's just not popular amongst the blacks nor islander's.

Most black hustlers know that by over hand shuffling that blocks of cards will stay together and when that stock comes back into play, they will have the advantage over the average sucker. This is an excellent example of why hustler's carry their own cards with them all the time, they never know when they are going to run into a sucker so they have to have their tools with them.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Jun 17, 2004 02:04AM)

I used to play Rummy with some Mexicans but these guys were so good from playing all the time in the pen that no matter what move I ran, they still beat the h*ll out of me. Good thing I only played for drinks and lap dances with them.

At the moment, I play Hold 'em and mostly with Whites and Asians. Shuffling is always done on the table but a lot of them bridge the cards and unintentionally flash the bottom two. That always makes me smile.

I've been enjoying your posts. The way you write reminds me of this Black Dice Hustler I met at a Dry Cleaners in Long Beach. He had this nice tumble that looked legit but his real forte was laying these umbelievable propositions that sounded like a sucker bet. Fools couldn't get their money out fast enough to cover him. I remember wanting to get some of his action but I didn't have the type of cash he was playing. Later on, I had a nerd friend of mine figure out the real odds and that guy was getting the best of it.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 17, 2004 04:15AM)
Hey Rawdog thanks for writing back.

Hustling comes in all shapes and forms especially sucker proposition betting.

A Story I Have To Tell

One day a friend of mine who I will call the beast was making proposition bets to some hustlers who thought that they were smart, after my friend started beating the pants off of them with his sucker bets, one of the guys said why don't you shoot the dice? He said me shoot I don't like shooting dice?

He said but I have a friend that I know who will shoot the dice if you bet enough, they said we don't want him we want you. He said, you don't want me you want him. They said we want you.

He said, you must don't understand what you're asking for. I didn't say I can't shoot, I said I don't like to shoot but if you really want me to shoot the dice, I will. As the people gathered to make their bets it seemed like magic filled the room.

My friend did the whip shot, the spin shot, the Texas turndown, the I don't have nothing to do shot. He was unbelievable, he's the best dice shooter I ever saw in my life. He even shot the dice and made his point from under his legs. He shot the dice off of the tip of his hat and made his numbers.

These guys were the best losers I've ever saw in my life; how could that be I said to myself. They seemed honored to give him their money after that showing of skill; I would have too. I know this may sound like a bunch of crap but it's all true. The only guys who can vouch for this guys ability that's at this site is Andrew and Darwin who saw the video of this guy shooting the dice. Steve Forte, Sal Piacente also can verify this guys ability but they are not here.

I will say that if he can't play on the surface of his choosing then he will bring in his loaded dice to complete the job but his dice shooting skill is extra ordinary. Note: He cannot not do this at a casino table. The guys had the right surface down to cheat us and got cheated.

Note: For the record, Steve Forte is the best dice manipulator that I have seen to this date and The Beast is the best dice shooter that I've seen to this date.

Your Friend


P.S. Rawdog if you want a good book on proposition bets get the Handbook on Percentages which was written in 1928.
Message: Posted by: Ethan500 (Jun 17, 2004 04:55AM)
Hello Doc,

I don't want to name names here, just initials. How good a dice and card men do you rate T.G. I tried to send you a P.M. but your box is full. Thanks

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jun 17, 2004 07:39AM)
"Regarding your Roman Shuffle Riffle Stack, I never heard of it."

Send me a p.m., Doc, if you want info.

Tristan O'
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 17, 2004 12:25PM)
Ethan thanks for writing but I don't know a T. G.

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 17, 2004 12:47PM)
Hi doc,

Its often said that holding out is one of the most risky forms of " advantage play".

What are your thoughts on this and have you any experiance with this angle of cheating.

Also, I have the forte tapes and am in awe at fortes dice work.

I love the stories you tell about your days hustling, the dice one was great.


Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 17, 2004 01:11PM)
Kukram because of lies perpetuated by magicians in which I believed to be true is the reason why I didn't go into the hold out field. They said that these devices were difficult to use and should be avoided. I didn't realize at that time in my life that magicians don't practice gambling moves, they just want to know how it's done and then want to act like they are an authority on the subject.

As I mentioned in my previous post, after I saw this guy use a kepplinger undetectably in front of me while I was filming him and couldn't detect it even in slow motion, that lie that the magicians stated just went right out the window.

I hope that this have been of some help to you.

Your Friend


P.S. Jason England can back up my statement.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 17, 2004 01:25PM)
Thanks Doc,

What about card palming?

It's something that every card player knows about but as Darwin ortiz says in 'Gambling scams', it's the easiest cheating technique to spot when done badly.But difficult when done well. What are your thoughts?

I remember when I first watched the Forte tape on card palming. It was the first time I saw palming done so well.

It was like a ballet, his hands moved gracefully rather than too movey. Everytime he touched the deck, he stole a card undetectably.

He copped a card during the process of giving the cards an in the hands r/shuffle.

I didn't catch that first time. I use that move to steal a card when I'm with a magician. It flies past them.

The Forte tapes have without doubt set the standard for me. I watch them at least every other day as a reference tool.

Hope to see some of your work soon,


Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 18, 2004 04:52AM)
Kukram I believe that Darwin could have not said it any better because when any move is done wrong it looks horrible.

I believe that I'm pretty good with palming even though I don't care for it any more. Why Doc? Unless you're playing black jack it's a slow win and I don't have the time to sit around waiting all night for a poker hand that exactly matches the card I'm holding out to slip in at that exact moment to win a pot.

You've seen the movie Shade what are the odds of you having that exact hand and the exact card needed for that hand to win? You do the math.

Even though I don't like stealing cards because I don't know when a person will pick up the deck and count it, I do have friends that will palm out entire hands and don't care.

How I Started Palming

I first started palming cards when Gene Maze was my teacher; I still have his book that he gave me on palming cards. I then went to Wesley James who sometimes sat with Gene and myself and gave me pointers. I then was taught by Lou Lancaster. Wow that name just suddenly popped back into my head after all these years. Yes Lou was one of my teachers too who I forgot to name on my previous post; he was a good teacher.

But I have to say that it was Steve Forte who made my palming and hand switching come alive. I thought that I was good but after seeing Steve bring cards in and out on the footage that he let me take of him, I improved 10 fold and when I do it correctly, I look just like my teacher in which I'm proud of.

I can do every hand muck move that's in the movie Shade well and some other ones better because of Steve's help but I'm sorry to throw a damper in on the Macmillan move. That move is an okay move and the reason I'm saying this is because I can do a better variant to it.

Doc don't bash the move? I'm not but what those of you who love this move (in which I do too) has not said and is not realizing is, is that the card that is brought into play is bent in a position that only shows that it must have been palmed out in a cupped hand position.

Professional card players can recognize this as a no no from a mile away. Steve would say to you "how long have you been holding that card." No card on a flat deck will look like that unless it was palmed out and held in that position.

I played a hustler named cool water who was swinging a card in and out of play and I laughed but said nothing. When he went to spread his hand and capped the deck with the palmed card, I told him that he can't win that money because the top card that I just looked at was perfectly flat and after his hand went over the deck the top card just magically became hump backed.

I said in a low voice let's not argue in front of these suckers, you was holding that card too hard, lighten your hand grip in the future. We played a couple of more hands in which I won and he quit because he couldn't cheat me doing that technique any more. He followed the hustler's rule, "If you can't cheat, don't play, because money don't spoil." We called a truce after breaking even and laughed about it and other things.

My variant move to the Macmillian move is my McMullen move. Yes my last name is McMullen and by using my variant when the top card is turned over, it's not bent facing up like a dead lady bug.

I do still like the move and before it was shown, I never saw this turn over technique done before in that way except when Dai Vernon turned over the card and crumbled it up, but after I realized that the card was bent, I made a variant move from what Steve taught me in a matter of minutes and it looks better because the card is not bent after it's turned over.

To any who think that I'm boasting my skill, I'm not. I'm just pointing out a flaw none paid attention to or never spoke of because of their lack of ability by not gambling professionally.

These little things that I'm teaching are important and are not taught in most gambling books because the guys whose writing these books are magicians who just know how to do the move but are not real players.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Peter Woerde (Jun 18, 2004 05:22AM)
Hey Doc,

you said you have friends that palm out entire hands. I assume they will only do that on their own deal, is that correct?
I have had times that when I picked up my deck I immediately felt something was wrong, only to find one card was missing. So if they hold out a complete hand on someone elses deal, heīs bound to feel a difference. How are your friendīs experiences with that, and is that why you donīt use it?

Message: Posted by: Jacko (Jun 18, 2004 09:31AM)
When I first saw the MacMillan switch in the movie shade I couldn't help but think that the card was a little bent and that it would have obviously been palmed. The more I read about the move on the Cafť I forgot about the bent card and just concentrated on how people were praising the move. I think this happens a lot with card manipulation. We study and practice a move or a sleight to match the way we see it performed and not for the intended purpose of the sleight. I must remind myself what I am trying to accomplish.

Doc, I have followed this thread from the beginning and find your stories and insight very interesting and thought provoking. So much so that I purchased the very book which started this disscusion. Best of luck to you and your family.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 18, 2004 09:37AM)
Jacko thanks for writing and it's an honor having you read my post. You see your conscious told you something was wrong but you dismissed it because of what others said. This is what will make you a better magician. Paying attention to details and fine points.

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: ASW (Jun 18, 2004 09:45AM)
Hasn't this thread run it's course yet? It's like one of those flesh-eating zombies in the Re-Animator that just keep on coming back.

Scares the hell out of me, I'll tell you that.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 18, 2004 02:08PM)
Well to any who may be interested, your questions are reminding me of things that I forgot and only remember when the question is asked. A good book need particulars in which ya'll are helping me to remember so thanks to all whose writing me and asking questions.

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 18, 2004 03:16PM)
Hi doc,

Do you have any stories about the first time you were introduced to the top card and dice guys?


Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jun 18, 2004 06:09PM)
The funny thing about the MacMillan turnover switch is that it is not now, and never has been touted as a "real" cheating move. It was created by a magician that never played a game of cards in his life, was published in a magic book, and is used primarily in pseudo-demonstrations of gambling moves by myself and the other half-dozen people that do this move well.

You may as well critique back palming as an ineffective method of holding out at the table.

Why is it that no one noticed that the "Blackjack Switch" couldn't be done on a real blackjack table? Because it's done fast? Give me a break. That move is as useless as the MacMillan at the card table. Show me a casino where they'll let you sweep your hand in from 2 feet away and not even look at the cards! It's a made-up move for the camera...that's all.

In fact, they're almost [i]all[/i] "B.S." moves in the opening scenes of [i][b]Shade[/i][/b]. Only the bottom or greek deal is of any use at the card table.

If you thought otherwise, or if you thought [i]we[/i] thought otherwise, you are mistaken.

Jason England
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jun 18, 2004 06:24PM)
Hi Jason,

I understand what you're saying, but we should also presuppose this as well: I imagine that even if you did have quote unquote real cheating moves that are in use in games (i'm not calling this into question), you wouldn't have put it right in the movie. I've never seen you perform (well other than the Shade stuff on film that you mentioned), so please excuse my postulations, but I'd imagine that if you were taught little known gambling cheat moves by hustlers, etc, you'd be reluctant to post them in a movie that has nationwide distribution for all to see...as well as on a web board that can be accessed and read by anyone - the "don't bite the hand that feeds" line of thought. Again no disrespect intended.

As an aside, I was astounded at the number of folks who wanted to learn "Zapped" (or whatever we call the old Marlo trick now) as shown in the movie credits, so they could "move" in a game with it...

Tristan O'
Message: Posted by: braunmagic (Jun 18, 2004 06:51PM)
Jason, Altho I agree with what you are saying I have never seen anyone use back palming in a gambling demo. If its dressed like a duck and everyone is told its a duck well you get my point. After all it was a movie about cheating at the table, not about fooling people in to believing you can cheat at the table.

When it comes to truely switching card in a game would anyone wait untill the moment when everyone at the table is watching? Only if they are in it for the fame I guess.

Just my thoughts,
Brent Braun

P.S. Doc I don't think this thread is long enough. I personaly never get tired of hearing your stories.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jun 18, 2004 07:07PM)
On 2004-06-18 19:51, braunmagic wrote:
Only if they are in it for the fame I guess.

I don't know that anyone truly wants the accolades that come with that sort of fame (usually involves a blackjack and I don't mean the game).
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jun 18, 2004 07:17PM)
I think the question has been answered - Would a real cheat write this... Well... Yes...

This has been one of the most interesting threads in the Cafť... Doc points out many things. Like how he would cold deck not on his deal. Some great stuff that should be in a book...

Thank you for the inside stories Doc...
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jun 19, 2004 01:01AM)
Again, I don't think it makes much sense to critique a move in a gambling context that was never created or intended to be used as a gambling move.

Did anyone complain that the "Juice" deck we used in [i][b]Shade[/i][/b] had a big "8" on the back instead of the dots and lines system that real juice decks have? No. Why? Because most people realized that this was done for the benefit of the members of the audience that had no idea what real juice looks like.

We did the exact same thing with the moves. They were done to show what is theoretically possible with a deck of cards to a group of people who don't already know.

It's [i]possible[/i] to switch a single card with one hand in the act of turning another face-down card face up. We wanted to get this across to the audience. So, we put a switch that could accomplish this in the film! Nevermind that the card came out a little warped from the grip (Kem cards won't). Never mind that the move wouldn't be done when the whole room is watching. If you think that average audience member picked up on these things you're wrong.

You guys are insisting that a move conform to card table procedures and contexts that we just didn't care about as long as it looked plausible to non-experts.

If something is presented as "real" to people who should know better, then by all means critique away. But otherwise, you're preaching to the choir on this one.

Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jun 19, 2004 06:48AM)
Hi Doc,

I'm feeling very new to cards at the moment having just returned after a 25 year absence. I wonder if you could help me understand a couple of points made earlier. Firsly, you mention that the faro and riffle shuffle stacking methods are equivalent. I'm going to be bold and query this with you. If say, four people are playing and the relevent cards are correctly arranged for stacking, would not the riffle method have the advantage of economy and flexibility? With sufficient skill, the deck could be riffle stacked in 'one' hit. If you were short, a second riffle could correct this. This can also be used for three, four five and possibly even six players. The faro would definitely require two perfect shuffles in our four player game with no margin for error. Also, unless you disguised it, the faro itself is likely to draw attention to itself because it is possibly well known at the card table. The riffle, on the other hand is more a standard and therefore acceptible/deceptive table shuffle. Of course, I may be completely off beam here, but I wondered what further thoughts you have on this.

Secondly, I am starting out learning the bottom deal from the book Gene Maze and the Art of the Bottom Deal. This is a fantastic book in my view and I can't for the life of me understand why it is out of print!!! But don't get me started on that. Anyway, I noticed you used the term 'knuckle flash' and I wondered what this referred to. I know well the dreaded 'left finger flash' effect from my fruitless time with the Expert Card Technique method but I can't seem to find a clear definition of the knuckle flash. Any enlightenment would be much appreciated. Like many others here, I find your insights and narrative valuable and absorbing.

Warm Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 19, 2004 07:12AM)
If you are going to R/Stack one card in one shuffle yeh,but stacking three of a kind in one shuffle is a bit ambitious to say the least..lol

The best idea would be to stack a card on each shuffle i.e 3 R/shuffles stacks 3 cards.

In the Perfect shuffle it doesn't need to be perfect as you would only stack the top stock.

Providing your tabled faro looks like a riffle shuffle it would fly as long as you don't have a major get ready tell and you start sweating pints and you pick up a towel and wipe your hands dry before each shuffle and have a grin on your face when you did it....lol.

The gene maze book is a good book. Finger flash means your fingers on the side of the deck dipping as you remove the bottom card.
I've also heard it called 'banana fingers'.

When you deal a card quickly the fingers will dip and then go back to thier original position, which will result in a flash.

Hope this helps.

p.s. Try international magic in london, they might have a copy. Also, try a search as these topics are always discussed
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jun 19, 2004 09:21AM)
OK Mr England, well fine, but please explain how you possibly think the Siamese Second Deal could EVER pass at the card table?! I tried it last night but my partner wasn't there so I was left holding the deck if you know what I mean...talk about collusion confusion.

(...this is a joke in case anyone thinks I'm being disrespectful).

I very much enjoyed your insights and deftness on the "extras" of that movie.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jun 19, 2004 10:08AM)
Hi kukram,

Thanks for taking the time to clarify things a bit. I still think it is feesable to stack three of a kind in one riffle as long as the cards to be stacked are already at the top. But maybe I'm being unrealistic. I mean I have never played cards professionally and if you really have to riffle and stack at the speed of light then you may be right. Perhaps Doc can comment?

I already have a copy of the Gene Maze book which I highly recommend and I know first hand what the left finger flash/bannana fingers look like. I took your advice and did a search and came up with an earlier 'Doc post' about someone called Igor and his protruding middle finger during the bottom deal. It sounds like 'finger flash' and 'knuckle flash' are the same thing.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jun 19, 2004 10:18AM)
You can also Surgically remove your middle finger to guarantee that you do not flash and provide easy access to the bottom card.

I heard that old riverboat gamblers did this :evilgrin:

Magically yours,
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jun 19, 2004 11:12AM)
That's so sad. If only Marlo had been alive back then...
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jun 19, 2004 12:27PM)
Can you explain that?
If one would really consider doing this, it would be *** funny to see 8 people play poker, for of them missing a middle finger :)
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jun 19, 2004 12:33PM)
Hi Jeff,

Very good, most amusing.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 19, 2004 12:46PM)
Hi Paul,

It is possible to stack 3 in one shuffle. If you preset breaks and free drop it would be a little easier.

By your posts I gather your not talking about a demo.#

I don't think any hustler would attempt stacking 2 cards in one shuffle at the table. I have never seen anyone do it to pass in knowing company, most guys do it for demo.

I may be wrong, and if someone can do it deceptively maybe they'll post it here.

IM 110% sure that no one would attempt 3 in one shuffle under fire. Ha! That would be suicide!

Also you don't have to stack at the speed of light, just at your normal shuffle speed.

Check out Darwin Ortiz videos. He has a mellow style of handling cards and his stacking is decptive. He's the best riffle stacker I've ever seen! Anything other than your normal way of shuffling will draw too much attention.


Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jun 19, 2004 02:02PM)
Thanks kukram, and you are probably right about the riifle stack. I'll check out some of Darwin Ortiz's stuff but he will probably be behind Steve Forte's gambling protection series. So many Video's, DVD's, books, so little money!! It is a pity there is no sign of the Forte series coming out on DVD.

Warm Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 19, 2004 02:42PM)
The Forte tapes are on NTSC format. I'm from the UK, and I have a new video recorder and it works.

I got the Forte and Ortiz card cheating tape too. The Forte tapes will be the best buy you will ever make, believe me(if your into the gambling sleights anyway).

The Ortiz tape comes a very close second and the only reason being that there's more stuff on the Forte tapes.

Ortiz even does the center deal deceptively!

Great investments


Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 20, 2004 07:54AM)
Hello to all, I'm back in full swing with my Mac again. My power cord was broke and the one for the car charger was taking much too long to recharge my laptop. This is the reason for the delay in me writing many of you back.

Now as for answering some of your questions I will do now.

Kukram I donít have any stories of the first time I was introduced to the top card and dice guys that would be relevant here. Iím a hustler not a magician so the names of the top magicians doesnít really matter to me in the least. It would make no difference to me if I were in front of Michael Ammar or you; if you can show me a good magic trick you got my attention.

Bottom Line, a layman doesnít care about technique because they donít know what to look for anyway, all they care about is if the trick was a good trick. Iím a layman that can do tricks, but the better tricks go right over my head like they do the rest of the public.

But on another note I would like to say that I would prefer to meet you rather than a regular magician because you have an interest in gambling moves in which Iím interested in.

Riffle Stacking

Paul thanks for writing. I would like to say that even though I can do a decent riffle stack if necessary, this is not one of my specialties. I believe Andrew or Kukram can answer this question for you better than I.

For the Record to those interested, I used to practice the Dad Stevenís Control and then after culling the 3 cards to the top of the deck I would then proceed to riffle stack. I also learned the double duke but since I was never able to attain the level of proficiency at doing this ruse, I gave up on practicing it because this took too long to do at the card table and therefore wasnít logical for me to do. Steve told me that he had the exact same dilemma when trying to master the technique.

Bottom Line, even though this control was unobtainable by us, donít give up on trying to master this because we didnít succeed.

The Knuckle Flash and a Surgically Remove Finger.

The Removed Finger

Jeff would you cut off your middle finger to do a bottom deal just to find out later on in life that the guy who taught you was doing it the wrong way from the beginning? Magicians believe anything, especially if another magician tells him that itís true; we live and learn.

For argument sake say there was a gambler that had an amputated middle finger and did a bottom deal, would all gamblers on a riverboat do this? No. Why? This would be a definite tale-tell sign to all who would sit down to play that he is a bottom dealer. To me, and this is only my opinion, that this is definitely another lie told by a magician(s) so that he could awe his audience into believing that heís an authority or an expert card cheat because he can do a bottom deal while still having his middle finger.

The Knuckle Flash

The knuckle flash and the left finger flash to me is the same thing. When a person is doing a bottom deal and uses this push-off technique, the finger must bend flashing the knuckle while pushing out the card from the bottom in order for the other hand to take it,

I would direct those whoís interested to particular videos on the market showing you what I mean but it would be taken by many as me bashing the performer instead of a teaching them or the public and since Iím already getting too much heat already, silence at this point is golden.

Bottom Line, because of status, pride and resentment, Iím not allowed to teach and show you the correct way it is suppose to be done.

Scafidi and Ed Marlo

Scafidi, if Marlo was back then we would have never learned from him because in my opinion he would have been killed when he tried to do his bottom. I hope Marlo doesnít try to come back and haunt me for saying this but on his Cardician Video when Marlo demonstrates his Cigar Bottom, his fingers drop so low that you canít help but know that he did a bottom deal and the bad thing about it, when he finishes doing the move, he sits back as if he did it perfectly. I then said to myself maybe itís because of the cigar so after saving up enough money to purchase the Seconds, Centers and Bottoms video, I knew that I was going to see the best teacher ever doing this move on this subject besides Dai because of his book of the same title; but to my surprise I was very disappointed in this version too.

Bottom Line, many who wrote me privately know that Ed Marlo is one of my favorite all time magicians ever but his bottom deal nor his middle deal was his specialty in my book even though he did an excellent job in writing the Seconds, Centerís and Bottoms book in which I practiced from daily while learning all of my deals.

Note: Even though I was disappointed at this video I learned a whole lot from Ed Marlo on a lot of things. If you want to learn how to cheat study Marloís stuff. All the cheats taught Marlo and out of all the magicians, Marlo was the only one that caught on the quickest and learned how to do the cheating moves the best.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 20, 2004 09:32AM)
On the basis that you should know your enemy guys like Doc might be well advised to get this.
Casino Surveillance Operations Manual

Also I read this at some place.

"The equipment is only as good as the people behind it," said George Lewis, a Las Vegas surveillance consultant and author of "Casino Surveillance, The Eye that Never Blinks." Lewis, an 18-year veteran of the surveillance field, teaches at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas' International Gaming Institute. "It's getting tougher because we've overbuilt (in Las Vegas). We're starving for good operators."
"The hand is quicker than the eye but it's not quicker than videotape," Carroll said. "You can only watch so much. You're not going to catch them all, but eventually they all get caught. They get greedy, that's how they get caught."

"We're starving for good operators."

This is very true. In England I think they have starved to death from what I can see. I was in a casino on Friday which has five empty poker tables not for the lack of players but they could not get an experienced dealer. Clients can not deal if they are playing. The players do not want to deal in cash games, they want to be dealt to. They want a dealer who can deal to a good standard. Dealing is not as easy as just shooting the cards around. You have to be able to sort the side pots and know the rules etc you have to be fast and sure of what your doing.
I was not going to deal, I went there to play.
I wonder how good are the eye in the sky operators in places like this these days. I would not be that surprised to find out they have not a clue what they are looking for. "It's getting tougher because we've overbuilt (in Las Vegas). We're starving for good operators." that's in Vegas, there is an explosion of casinos in England. Guys like Doc could fill there boots. I am very tempted to myself to get a patner and become an all knowing dealer.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Z (Jun 20, 2004 10:00AM)
On 2004-06-19 13:46, kukram wrote:
Hi Paul,

It is possible to stack 3 in one shuffle. If you preset breaks and free drop it would be a little easier.

By your posts I gather your not talking about a demo.#

I don't think any hustler would attempt stacking 2 cards in one shuffle at the table. I have never seen anyone do it to pass in knowing company, most guys do it for demo.

I may be wrong, and if someone can do it deceptively maybe they'll post it here.

IM 110% sure that no one would attempt 3 in one shuffle under fire. Ha! That would be suicide!

Also you don't have to stack at the speed of light, just at your normal shuffle speed.

Check out Darwin Ortiz videos. He has a mellow style of handling cards and his stacking is decptive. He's the best riffle stacker I've ever seen! Anything other than your normal way of shuffling will draw too much attention.



There's no real point in these multi-card stacks being discussed outside of demonstrations. Shuffle the deck once in any reasonable game and you'll most likely be told to shuffle some more.

Only arena where it maybe semi-applicable is in casinos or card rooms that have specific shuffle procedures. But even then, you're stacking 2 cards, 3 at the most.

Re: speeds and so forth, most people shuffle at a fairly quick pace, i.e. the rate the cards drop off the thumbs. I'm of the belief that the stacks should be done rather fast, as a super-slow riffle just looks fishy, least to me; you're either peeking cards or doing something naughty. But, that hesitation during the riffle will almost always be present. It's *** hard to eliminate or minimize, but I certainly think it can be done :).
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jun 20, 2004 10:24AM)
Hi Doc,

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply. As always, your answers have stimulated further lines of enquiry. I'm now on the trail of the 'dad Stevens' riffle cull and control. Also, thanks to Mr Z for your helpful insights on the riffle stack.

Warm Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jun 20, 2004 10:39PM)
I have only found 1 method for performing the Dad Steven's control (which I have used for years). I did not know he had a cull.

Do you know the source, if it is in print ?

Thanx !

Magically yours,
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jun 21, 2004 12:07AM)
Hi Jeff,

This is pioneering terretory for me. I am going on a post by kukram who suggests a control and a riffle cul. He may be able to provide a source. He posted his comments in the thread 'Dad Stevens' here,



Paul H
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 21, 2004 12:18AM)
Critiquing Is A Must


The funny thing about the Macmillan turnover switch is that it is not now, and never has been touted as a "real" cheating move. It was created by a magician that never played a game of cards in his life, was published in a magic book, and is used primarily in pseudo-demonstrations of gambling moves by myself and the other half-dozen people that do this move well.


The first thing I would like to do before I go into my analysis is to give the magician who invented this move a standing ovation for such a great idea. Everyone loves it even the great card cheating magicians therefore something must be great about this move and idea.

Jason regarding what you said about the Macmillan turnover that has never been touted as a real cheating move may have been true in the past but that's about to change as of today; at least in the case of me using it. Why? Because the move is an excellent move to do, you and your half-dozen friends just donít know where to use it.

What Might Walter Scott Say About Jasonís Statement?

ďMagicians werenít interested in playing poker; they only wanted to know the moves that got the cards from the deck and on to the tableÖIt made no sense to himÖIn Scottís eyes, they were not clever enoughÖand selling what was never theirs.Ē Note: I deleted words from his text so not to offend anybody but I believe my teacherís whole statement to be exactly true.

Note: This paragraph was taken from Page 182 and 183 of Phantoms of the Card Table.

Comments To Be Re-evaluated

(Jasonís Statement) ďI donít think it makes much sense to critique a move in a gambling context that was never created or intended to be used as a gambling moveĒ


It does make a lot of since to critique a move in a gambling context IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL CARD CHEAT for a number of reasons.

1. Iím a cardsharp not a magician so how would I know where this move came from? Being that I am one is all the more reason why it is inevitable for me to critique it, being that I saw it in a movie pertaining to card artifice at the table.

2. I mean this in no disrespect but Jason nor those who learned the move is God and therefore donít have the final word on what we are to critique. I will prove this in the last part of this evaluation. For those readers reading my post, please critique what I say and ask me questions because by doing this, I will continue to keep on advancing and learning and besides most times when one re-evaluate things, you learn new things that never crossed your mind before which might have been so simple to solve if only that person looked at it from another viewpoint.


4. So with that in mind, why should I dismiss something that worked for me in the past the second time because someone says why critique a move that was never created or intended as a gambling move because of their status as a great card manipulator? I shouldnít, I should critique it the same way. Once youíve stopped critiquing and thinking, you will never advance, you will never get better nor will you ever invent new moves or new things.

5. My last and final reason why you should critique all moves that youíre planning to use? IT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE. To all who may be interested in becoming a cheater, your life is more important than anything in this world and if youíre going to do a move and you donít know the mentality of the people youíre playing with meaning if they are killers or not, please take my advice and critique all gambling moves that you come in contact with as if your life depended on it; because one day YOUR LIFE WILL DEPEND ON IT.

The second comment that should be re-evaluated is

This move was never created or intended to be used as a gambling move?

Even though I donít have any proof, I believe that this move was. Why? I canít imagine a trick that a person would use this move for unless it was for a gambling table. What trick does any one know where a magician places a card in the middle of the table and then position his hand in a way that is shown as in Shade just to do a switch unless itís just like Jason said a pseudo-gambling move or a move that was intended to be a gambling move but because of the lack of knowledge about the card table, was dismissed and left to be improved upon by an expert cheat. (Iím just thinking out loud)

Iím assuming that this magician might have seen Dai Vernon or some gambler do this move while crumbling up the card and tried to improve upon it in which he did but since he had no prior gambling experience he could go no further.

Why the Move Was Never Used and Why Jason May Have Made This Statement?

Iím making an assumption here of why Jason made his statement being that Iím not God either and I canít read minds or hearts, I believe itís because of one of the same problems that the magician who made up the Macmillan turnover had, they donít gamble for a living, donít gamble that much or gamble only under certain conditions. Letís fast forward to gambling under certain conditions.

Gambling Under Particular Conditions

According to Jasonís second post he knows about a blackjack table and the condition in which a move can be done. This shows that Jason has at sometime in his life gambled or is experienced in this area but also according to this same post Jason makes another statement that throws a little light on why he makes the other statement in which stumps me ďthe move is as useless as the Macmillan at the card table.Ē This is the missing part of the puzzle that must be found to solve the problem.

Jason, leave the world of the regular cards and come to the world of the Kem Cards and youíll have the answer to the problem of why it was never used. This move can be accomplished perfectly and undetected without a flaw (a concave bend) if it was played using Kem Cards or any such cards of the same quality.

If Jason would have played at a poker table in the casino or just remembered that they played with plastic cards he would not have come to the conclusion that this move was useless.

Jason And Docís View Is Almost the Same
As To Why The Move Can Pass In Fast Company

Now let me put everything Jason said in an order to make it sound like what Doc said.

If something is presented as "real" to people who should know better, then by all means critique away. You guys are insisting that a move conform to card table procedures and contexts that we just didn't care about (Doc: or didnít know at the time) as long as it looked plausible to non-experts.

It's possible to switch a single card with one hand in the act of turning another faced down card face up. We wanted to get this across to the audience. So, we put a switch that could accomplish this in the film! Since the ďmoves were done to show what is theoretically possible to do Ö with people who donít already knowÖ and since ďall gambling is not played with regular cardsÖďNever mind that the card came out warped from the grip (Kem Cards Wonít).Ē If you think that (an) average audience member (or card player) can picked up on these things you're wrongÖyou're preaching to the choir on this one (Doc: sometimes itís those in the choir that needs the most preaching too).

The move can pass in fast company for a few reasons. Why?

1. Because most people donít know that this move exists according to a statement made by Jason (myself and the other half-dozen people that do this move well),

2. The 2nd reason why this move will go over well is because itís unbelievable to the eye just like the Cold Deck Move. How be this possible to do if he has another card in his hand is what the mind will say to itself if he thinks something is wrong. The mind must take action and say to itself without words that he canít be doing anything because he turned the card over normally and the way he has his hand positioned, he canít possibly have anything in his hand. This observation is proven to be true because everyone who saw this move thinks that the move is great and spoke highly of it and want to learn it.

Readers of the forum you have to realize that certain moves like the retention of a vanishing coin fools the mind because the person saw that coin closed in by the other hand. Likewise when this card is turned over in the way it is, the mind will say itís impossible for him to have two cards in his hand because he turned it over in a way that only permits one card to be turned over and by this fact alone makes the Macmillan turnover a gambling move for the card table.

Note: For the record, this is the only card switch that I know that has to be rated on the level of a Cold Deck Move. Why? The handling of this switch is not covered at all and it fools the eye.

Forum I Need Your Input On This

I would like the forum to voice their opinion on my evaluation to see if it's an excellent move for the card table after me tweaking out the problems.

The reason why I excel in certain things is because I look at things in a different perspective than many of you here because I do this for a living. Do you remember why I said that like going to the magicians? Because the magicianís have the answers but they donít know the questions. This is a prime example of what I was talking about.

Well the fist thing I want to say is that Jason already told you the answer, so let's just find the riddle to where it fits. Jason answers the dilemma in his own words when he said, ďNever mind that the card came out warped from the grip (Kem Cards Wonít).Ē

This is why this move is not used at the gambling table; itís being used at the wrong gambling table. Itís suppose to be used at the table where they are playing with plastic cards but since he forgot about his own answer this is why he then stated ďI donít think it makes much sense to critique a move in a gambling context that was never created or intended to be used as a gambling move.Ē

My Concluding Observation

1. This move is excellent for the card table, the few magicians who knew about this technique just didn't know how to apply it because they don't either gamble or donít be at gambling tables as much as I.

2. It does make a lot of since to critique a move in a gambling context IF YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER BUT NOT IF YOUíRE A MAGICIAN.

Steve Forte Learns Something New

When I was visiting Steve, Rod and Steve started talking about the quality of Kem Cards while they were doing false shuffles on each other. Steve was fooling Rod and Rod was fooling Steve. It was a great sight to behold, two of the greatest shufflers Iíve ever seen was baffling each other. Then Steve asked Rod a question ďhow is it possible that youíre able to conceal the fact that youíre holding a break while shuffling the cards?Ē and Rod said, ďITíS ONLY POSSIBLE TO DO IF YOUíRE USING KEM CARDS BUT NOT IF YOUíRE USING REGULAR PLAYING CARDS.Ē Steve was just taught something new that he didnít know before and neither did I.

Bottom Line what you can't do with one type of cards, you may can do with the other.

Your Friend


Jason Saturday I purchased the DVD of the movie Shade just to see the moves and you do all your moves pretty good, I like them; Good card work. The only thing that I donít like but was certainly necessary was the angle in which they showed the Macmillan turnover. In the commentary area you did the move flawless from the top angle and from the under the table position, the footage of the side view should not have been shown to show the card bent but it was necessary to see in order to come to a correct evaluation.

Like I said on a previous post, I made a variant for regular cards but it does not out beat the original way you do it especially if you this move playing with plastic Kem Cards.

One more thing before I go, In this month addition (June) of Psychology Today on page 62 you will see a very short right up on me.

Magically Yours

Message: Posted by: camador (Jun 21, 2004 06:22AM)

Is this the magazine you mean DOC?


Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 21, 2004 06:41AM)
Hey Camador thanks for writing me and I hope all is well with you and your family.

Yes this is the magazine just turn to page 62 Sub-Heading Street Corner Psychologist.


P.S. Don't buy the magazine just pick it up and turn to page 62 because it's quick read.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 21, 2004 07:03AM)
Great posts doc.

Your fingers must be cramping after typing that ..ha

IN regard to the 'Stevens cull'

You can find a lot of info in the back of the Dai vernon book 'Revelations'

The handling in the book is incorrect.But there is still a lot of food for thought about the move.

The move is briefly described in the wonderfull book by Andrew wimhurst called 'Down under deals'.

If you want to study this technique seriously your gonna need both.


Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 21, 2004 08:14AM)
Kukram thanks for the 411.

I'll glance over it when I have the time but to be honest with you I practice what I need in order to get the money. I just don't sit around practicing stuff just to say that I know how to do it, I'm past that stage in my life now.

I'm not knocking the move it's excellent but inferior to the cold deck, so why should I practice that when I can give the whole table a hand. Some don't realize that you can still get broke while stacking two hands.

Let's say you place 3 Aces and 3 Kings on top of the deck to double duke someone playing 5/7 card stud or draw poker: you don't have to win. The 4th King might show up by accident or another pair which will give that person a full house still leaving you with your 3 Aces but by cold decking, you don't have that problem, at least not in the beginning. What do you mean Doc?

Cold Decking is not all there is to the move. You have to set the deck up so that whomever you want to lose will lose but accidents do happen when you're first learning how to set up a deck.

Imagine setting up the deck to give yourself 3 Aces and the mark/victim 3 Kings and now you've just put in all your money in the pot because you know that you're going to win only to find out because you were new to setting up a deck that you forgot to put the other king at the bottom of the deck so now the sucker has 4 kings and now you're broke.

Talking is great but experience will always be your best teacher because people who tell stories most of the time forget certain things of a story that was necessary to come to a right conclusion.

Oh I forgot to say that it's an easier way to double duke, just interlace the 3 Aces and the 3 kings and place them at the bottom of the deck and after beating the cut just deal bottoms to the sucker and yourself. Him the Kings and you the Aces. If you can't beat the cut just do the same technique by middle dealing the alternates. See Andrew's Video on the middle deal for a basic idea of what I'm talking about.

Your Friend


P.S. Kukram typing long post don't bother me, I used to be a secretary before I started cheating which typed 85 - 90 wpm and before that when I was in 8th grade, I use to type for fun.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 21, 2004 10:13AM)
What moves can or cannot be used at the card table depends on who the company is or is not as the case may be. This goes beyond mere opinion when it is based on experience.
This is an experience that I had many years ago.
I was in a snooker hall and in came a friend of mine. I will call him Henry. Henry was a kid who always dressed immaculately. His motto was ď There is one thing worse than being skint and thatís looking it.Ē He said to me ďSimon is coming here in a while, to play me Kalooki but I have no money, lend me some and I will give you half the winnings.Ē Why should I bet odds on when you are only evens to win I asked?
Because we are good pals he said grinning. I have no money to lend you, so why donít you play him and if he wins the first game pretend you left you wallet at home, he will stand for it because you look like you have got plenty. Simon was a millionaire businessman far from an idiot but not streetwise. Kalooki is a game like Gin Rummy it is played with 13 cards each and two decks and with two jokers, which count as any card. I canít do that, Henry said, he would never play me again.
O.K. I said, I would lend you the money and go half in with you, if you put the jokers in. ďPut the jokers in?Ē What is that, I canít make moves with the cards, I do not have a clue! .
So I showed Henry the move. It took Henry 2 minutes to get the move down.
The move needed no skill but a little boldness.
On the pick up, put the jokers 3rd and 5th from the top. Riffle the two decks keeping the five cards on top. Let Simon cut and you take the bottom half and deal. You will have a few cards left. Pick up the bottom half thatís been left on the table and place them on the few left in your hand spread them and turn over the top card. Let Simon pluck and you pluck the joker, let him pluck again and you pluck the other joker. Simon came in and Henry took £15,000 from Simon. You could buy a house at the time for £5,000. Simon years later discovered the move but could not prove anything by then, and in fact found it funny that some young kid had got him. We spent the money in no time having a good time but wishing now we had bought three houses, as they are about £150,000 now.

I think what made Henry a great cheat that day was his great acting ability and his nerve. It was nothing to do with his skill with cards. It must be the same with a magician; to be great they must be great actors who put on highly original performances. Mere slights are just tools. I think going to acting school would be the best step for a cheat or a magician.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 21, 2004 01:25PM)
Tommy thanks for the writing that experience, I need people to write more like that.

I have to agree with you on being an actor because we don't really have a plan when we're on the road hustling. The leader says what he's going to do and what we should do and everybody gets together and improvise from there acting their own part.

A Great Plan Gone Wrong

I remember when I was on the road and we was going to an All-Star game in Tennessee, no I think it was the Mike Tyson fight because I remember seeing some kind of fight upset etc. But before going to this mall, the night before a friend and I was at the hotel room getting ready for something and we saw this hooker in the lobby that my friend wanted to get with so he asked her how much and she said $100 each so we agreed.

As we went to our room to await her because she was staying in the room up the hall my friend took out his three shell game and said that we was going to con her out of the coochie so I said okay whatever you say being that I was new to this road hustling.

We started acting like we were playing against each other so when she came to the room it appeared as though we was gambling against each other. As the girl came into the room my friend paid her the $200 and told her to wait just a bit so he could finish beating me out of my money. She said okay.

The Con Man Gets Conned

As my friend and I kept going back and forth with finding the pea the hooker became interested because I kept picking the wrong one and she kept finding the pea. So she asked if she could play and he said yes. He did the 3 shell move stealing the pea and fooled me, so the hooker said can I bet and show him which one out the two itís under and he said yea but you have to bet money so she agreed. She took some of the money that she just got paid with and wagered on the correct shell and lost right along with me. I then picked up the other shell and said I knew you shouldíve picked this one showing her the pea was actually under the other one.

My friend kept doing this and beating her until she was broke; now it was time to get some coochie but when he went to get some, the hooker said I ainít giving you s***. He said why not, I paid you for it right? She said, yeah but I ainít gonna be putting no mileage on my P**** and then leave here broke too. He then put her out the room arguing with her and calling her names as she went down the hall to her room.

She conned us that time because we couldnít take it because that would have been a rape charge so she laughed while she left the room switchin' saying, take it, well take it then while he was still cursing her out. He later told me that normally the girls keep their word but this was the first one that didnít. I kept laughing at what happened because he was still calling her names and she had been gone now about 15 minutes; he was mad.

Bottom Line. In my viewpoint like Tommy said earlier we have to be good actors to sell our magic tricks. You may have better skills and technique than I but this only matters to the magicians critiquing each other. To the public it doesnít matter how great your technique is as long as they liked your performance and your jokes you were the best magician.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 21, 2004 01:42PM)
Hi doc,

Have you ever thought of writing a book and putting these stories into it, I'm sure there would be a big interest.

'Life of a hustler'

By the way I want my cut for the title....ha
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 21, 2004 01:50PM)
Kukram didn't you read between the lines when I said this on a previous post? I said that a good book need particulars. This why I said that ya'll have to keep asking me questions so things that I've forgotten about can be remembered.

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 21, 2004 01:57PM)
Apart from cards and dice, have you ever been involved in other hustles or scams

I say this as you touched on the subject of the shell game.

Message: Posted by: Metalepsis (Jun 21, 2004 02:52PM)
Patience. Cool Temper. These are two qualities needed as well. A sticks and stones mindset. You can pretend to lose your temper but you can't really lose it. You lose your temper and you lose control. No sense of disgust. You will be talking to people who believe many different things and when they say something you get to agree! That's right...be a yes man!

The acting school thing just reached out and grabbed me. Wasn't Dunninger who said "There is no such thing as a magician...only actors playing the parts of magicians." Well change a word or two...

Hey DOC, I just wanted to say...happy juneteenth. Its my B-day...and growing up the only white guy in navy yard (Its a mass of irony for all the world to see...) I love juneteenth...I am *VERY* proud to be born on that day.

You know Paul Zenon's change raising technique? You might like it...

Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jun 21, 2004 05:12PM)
Hi Doc,

What's up with the thing we had going on? you know what I'm talking about.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jun 21, 2004 09:19PM)
Hi Doc,

I think a clarification is in order here.

When I said "don't critique" in earlier posts, I didn't mean "don't analyse." I meant, "don't disparage". Additional analysis is virtually always good. In other words, of course it is acceptable to look at a move and try to tweak it and adapt it to the card table. And it sounds like you've done this. (By the way, the "McMullen Switch" is a great way to pay homage to the original.)

One of the ways we both agree that this adaptation can be done is to take certain precautions to eliminate the bending of the card that is coming in. Perhaps the easiest way to do this is to use plastic cards that don't hold a bend in the first place. Another way might be to alter the position of the incoming card in your hand before it comes in. There are several other ways to eliminate or cover this bend, some that I've come up with and some that others have come up with.

But the point I was trying to make is that since the MacMillan switch wasn't conceived as a gambling move by its inventor, it makes sense that it might not be perfect in a gambling context. Daryl's "Snowshoe Second" makes little sense in a gambling context as well, since it's open and an obvious gag. To critique (as in disparage) this move as a "bad idea" in a real gambling/cheating context would be ludicrous. The move is an obvious gag and psuedo-gambling move.

Perhaps the MacMillan isn't as obviously a magic move, but it is a magic move nonetheless. It just so happens that it's a magic move that can rather easily be adapted to the card table. But there's the rub..."adapted."

As described in Dan MacMillan's book, and as performed in Shade, the move isn't perfect for the card table. On this we all agree.

My point is, why should it be?

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 22, 2004 05:53AM)
This one sounded like a scene from a Charlie Chaplin film and I could not stop laughing when I was told this story but these guys were serious people.
To keep a long story short this is it.

This is a Backgammon contraption. Apparently being hired out for a cut of the action.

The dice are loaded but with equal weights on every side so they fall fairly.
However the one spots are loaded with steel slugs, as the other spots are led slugs.
Two large magnets are strapped to your legs above the knees.
You raise your knees under the table to get yourself a double six.
The guy who used it said it works but you can just barely walk with these magnets strapped on.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 22, 2004 06:38AM)
Jason since I saw the movie footage and seen the different angles of the turnover and liked them all except the bent position would it be possible since you do this move the best not to hold the card so tight in your hand.

Please help me on this since I haven't mastered this variant as of yet, but from my viewpoint the bend didn't come from you turning over the card, it came from your tight grip previous to doing the move. Am I correct in this assumption, if not please let me know.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jun 22, 2004 06:59AM)
On 2004-06-22 06:53, tommy wrote:
This one sounded like a scene from a Charlie Chaplin film and I could not stop laughing when I was told this story but these guys were serious people.
To keep a long story short this is it.

This is a Backgammon contraption. Apparently being hired out for a cut of the action.

The dice are loaded but with equal weights on every side so they fall fairly.
However the one spots are loaded with steel slugs, as the other spots are led slugs.
Two large magnets are strapped to your legs above the knees.
You raise your knees under the table to get yourself a double six.
The guy who used it said it works but you can just barely walk with these magnets strapped on.

They weren't kidding. I'm unfamiliar with steel or lead slugs, but I am familiar with magnet slugs for this purpose (neodymium or cobalt). Also, there's usually more involved than simply lifting your leg (and a better place to conceal the magnet).

Doc, any "tracking" stories?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 22, 2004 07:28AM)
Yes Larry you are right these guys were certainly not kidding. It was the way they explained the story, which was funny.
You are no doubt right about the dice. I am not familiar with dice and I do not think they were either. The dice you mention, can they be purchased on the web?
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jun 22, 2004 10:19AM)
Tommy, I'm not familiar with a WEB source. I bought mine from an underground source years ago, and at the time the price was about $250 for a pair.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 22, 2004 10:59AM)
Thanks Larry I have had a quick look but can not find any of the kind you mention but there are some things here.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 22, 2004 03:44PM)
Tommy, that's still the going price for a pair of magnetic dice unless you're pretty close with the maker and he gives you a deal.

**** Happens

I remember being at a convention of some sort, right now I don't remember which at the moment where we (me and my partners) rented two hotel rooms that was right next to each other in order to beat some suckers with the juice.

These guys knew about the juice table so the con game that my friends initiated was stepped up a notch; they had a wall juice device just incase. Note: This device works exactly like the juice table but it's positioned behind the opposite side of a wall to where you're going to play dice. As the dice is thrown close to the wall the juice will come through the wall and make the dice roll on the preferred point.

The Con

The time had come when the game was supposed to start. As the guys entered the room we staged it as if the game was already in progress. Each of us was betting each other etc. Out of nowhere one of my friends asked these guys why they weren't playing and they said, we like to play on the floor. I said yeah I like to play on the floor too because I'm losing my money here on this table.

Everybody agreed to play on the floor so we went to another part of the room and removed the recliner so we could have an empty and large enough spot to play in. This was the spot where the juice device was positioned in back of the wall. As we started to play and bets were made etc. to my surprise when I threw the dice after making my initial point, the dice stuck to the lower part of the hotel wall as if someone glued them there. Everybody in amazement said oh **** did you see that?

As one of the suckers reached to get the dice they fell from the wall; everybody jumped back momentarily because they got scared. One of the guys in the crew said, this room is ****** haunted. Is this the room where that guy got killed in? The other hustler said yeah (playing it off), but if he **** with my dice while I'm shooting them and make me lose, back the **** up because I'm a gonna start shooting for real. Everybody started laughing and kept on playing after they examined the dice as if nothing happened.

You should have seen my dice switch it was so pretty and flawless that my friends didnít even know that I switched the dice out of play when I handed it to one of the suckers who seem to be Jap wise to check out. Everybody in my crew gave me a look like no donít do that when I asked the sucker to check these out for me because Iíve been losing my money like a dog and I donít know how to check and see if anything is wrong or not. After the guy checked out the dice and was content with his evaluation, he said they were okay and we started playing again.

How dumb can a sucker be? The reason why the dice stuck to the wall was that the juice device had an electrical problem and was too strong and the button momentarily stuck because it wasn't used in a while. The reason why the dice fell as the sucker was about to grab it was by accident and probably because the button became unstuck at that exact moment when the power from the magnet switched off. We stopped using the device and eventually beat these guys by switching loaded dice in and out of play.

Your Friend


P.S. One day Iíll videotape my Retrievable Raven-like dice switch in which I call the Eagle Claw for all to see but it wonít be any time soon.
Message: Posted by: Elknase (Jun 22, 2004 04:15PM)
On 2004-06-21 14:25, Unknown419 wrote:
The Con Man Gets Conned

As my friend and I kept going back and forth with finding the pea the hooker became interested because I kept picking the wrong one and she kept finding the pea. So she asked if she could play and he said yes. He did the 3 shell move stealing the pea and fooled me, so the hooker said can I bet and show him which one out the two itís under and he said yea but you have to bet money so she agreed. She took some of the money that she just got paid with and wagered on the correct shell and lost right along with me. I then picked up the other shell and said I knew you shouldíve picked this one showing her the pea was actually under the other one.

My friend kept doing this and beating her until she was broke; now it was time to get some coochie but when he went to get some, the hooker said I ainít giving you ****. He said why not, I paid you for it right? She said, yeah but I ainít gonna be putting no mileage on my ***** and then leave here broke too. He then put her out the room arguing with her and calling her names as she went down the hall to her room.

She conned us that time because we couldnít take it because that would have been a rape charge so she laughed while she left the room switchin' saying, take it, well take it then while he was still cursing her out. He later told me that normally the girls keep their word but this was the first one that didnít. I kept laughing at what happened because he was still calling her names and she had been gone now about 15 minutes; he was mad.

Bottom Line. In my viewpoint like Tommy said earlier we have to be good actors to sell our magic tricks. You may have better skills and technique than I but this only matters to the magicians critiquing each other. To the public it doesnít matter how great your technique is as long as they liked your performance and your jokes you were the best magician.

Your Friend



I admire your skill to fleece a hooker until she was broke and still wanting the big service while feeling convinced to be conned by her the moment she refuses service. Congratulations and thank you to share such a great lesson with the fools that adore you!

I'm convinced, some people from a different league can't wait to meet you when you are about to play them.

Go on with your adventurous stories and all the skill and experience you claim to have and keep up being entertaining but never forget there are people you won't lead up the garden path. People you can't fool twice because your hands get smashed with a hammer and you have to do your famous cooler differently the last time before you'll be introduced to skill you never learned to perceive.

It's never about ethics but levels of how to play the games.

And one day, my dear friend, you will dance with the devil.

He will change you. Cheat you. Seduce you. But you won't see it coming.

Fortunately, there is no such thing as the devil that is coming for your soul, ain't my friend ?
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jun 22, 2004 05:43PM)
Elknase, what are you on about?

Let's not forget how much magic is in debt for different cheating techniques. Yes, all the way to the biblical times. I find it, therefore, somewhat odd that we should criticise cheaters on this message board. A man does what he does and pays for the consequences.

I consider it to be a privilege to hear stories from a real life character and I do not feel like a fool at all. At least most of us here have the decency of not to insult others.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 22, 2004 06:48PM)
Elknase thanks for writing me and I appreciate your comments because everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just would like to explain something to this forum so that all can have a better understanding about what I believe and me.

As far as conning a hooker is concerned I wrote that I was new to this ruse and was told to act this part right before she was to show up in which I did. I take no pride in conning to get laid but this girl looked so good and had a body so bad that sheíd make a bishop throw down his bible and jump out of a stained glass window.

On another note I would like to say that while Iím on the road that the stripper clubs that you saw in Shade actually is one of the main areas in which we catch a lot of suckers; hey I met M.J. at the Gentlemanís Club in Atlanta giving out $100 bills.

As far as calling my readerís fools is concerned thatís not nice because when you point
your finger at someone 3 fingers are always pointing back at you so what does that tell you.

On a spiritual note God would sayÖbut whoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matt. 5:22). I guess weíll both be dancing with the devil one day, I just hope that while weíre dancing together, he cuts in and wants to dance with you to tell you that God Canít Lie and this is why youíre in the same boat with Doc.

On the Street Tip, what youíre saying about me getting my hands smashed maybe true but donít think for one minute that weíre not packing heat just in case we get caught and have to shoot our way out of a place. Have you ever seen the Gun Hold-Out (Wild, Wild West)? Well the chances of me getting my hands smashed is very unlikely as to me getting shot because I shoot first and ask questions later. But Doc that sounds stupid? It may but I like what I heard a judge or someone say one day and it made a whole lot of sense ďIíd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. If youíre alive you always got hope that the twelve judging you might let you off but if youíre dead, you only can hope that 6 pall barrows will carry you.

The Meaning of Doc/Docholiday

Many here know me as Doc which means Dealer of Cards or Iíll play anybody Dice or Cards but my name goes even further than what yaíll may think. I did some research when I came up with the name that I wanted to use because I donít like to lie to people so I tell the truth by saying my name. All they have to do if they wish to know about me is just look up the meaning of my name in the Websterís New Universal Unabridged Dictionary.

In bible times names had a meaning likewise, so do mine. Doc means to doctor or fix up. I fix/mark cards up while Iím playing. Doc also means to teach in which I do in gambling and theology and my full street name which is Docholiday means that Doc keeps the 7th Day Sabbath holy day as his day of rest (Ex. 20:8-11; Isa. 66:22, 23). Holiday is derived from the word Holy day; and last but not least the real Docholiday was the fastest gunslinger known in his time and played cards for a living. So when you see that hand smasher tell him, donít bring a hammer to a gunfight because Iíd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Dancing With The Devil

As far as dancing with the devil is concerned, we all dance with him daily in our lives (Eph. 6:10-12) some with money, greed, power, sex, fame, gambling, gluttony etc. I wrote on this topic but this post was deleted because its teaching of the fate of the cheater was the same as the magician and therefore was not beneficial to the advancement of this site or people becoming magicians

Oh one more thing before I go, as far as the devil cheating and seducing me is concerned, even though heís the best at what he do and still should be respected for his craft, he canít beat me either. If I didnít learn anything from gambling except this is, I know that there is always someone out there better than you that you canít beat. Since I know for a fact that I canít beat him on my own, like the hustlers who call in ringers so must I when it comes to this time in my life.

Sometimes itís not what you know; itís whom you know. I know Jesus, and I know that if I take a hold of him and keep him as my Lord and Savior and read his Bible (Basic Information Before Leaving Earth), the Devil canít touch me. Besides the devil only took 1/3 of the angels with him so I have 2/3 helping me besides the Father, Son and Holy Ghost who canít be beat.

Still Your Friend, Just Speaking Our Minds


The Fate of the Magician and the Cardsharp

Note: This is only for those who believe in God. Iím not here to debate with those who donít believe because everybody is entitled to their own beliefs. Iím only stating whatís in the bible a book that I BELIEVE (not you) to be inspired by God.

This Morality of Cheating question will offend many a magicians and Christian magicianís but I only state the facts if itís to my benefit or not and most times the truth hurts. As I stated in my Strike Second Deal post which was taken down, friends donít lie to friends they will tell them the truth even if itís not what they want to hear.

(To Marmaduke) This will answer your question.

I make no justification for what Iím doing; Iím wrong and Iím guilty of being a card cheat, which in my viewpoint is a thief. That which is wrong is can never be right. If I donít change my ways, I will be lost. Not only will I be punished but also I will be punished worse because I knew what was right but didnít do it.

Societyís View and My Belief

Societyís belief that lying is okay as long as is doesnít hurt any one but shuns thieves and cheats. Both is wrong in the eyes of God and on Judgment Day God will definitely make this known. The same 10 Commandment Law that says, ďThou Shalt Not Steal, is the same one that said ďThou Shalt Not Bare False Witness (Lie).

It is my belief that by playing cards at any level especially to make money is wrong. Sin is sin; the professional card player, the professional card cheat, the person who plays at home to just past time (I mean a person who forgets everything and closes out the world Ė video game players included Ė who donít do what theyíre suppose to do or have to do) will all end up at the same place if they donít stop playing cards and this includes me. I will be punished worse than any because I know but did not do. We all are stewards of time and time shouldnít be wasted on playing cards, chess, checkers etc. for long periods of time.

I donít tickle ears (telling people what they want to hear) cause one day Iím going to have to stand before God for what I do and say and when I do, I want Him to say when that time comes ďGood Steward come on in.Ē That will be the greatest day of my life; to live forever and hang out with some of yaíll if yaíll make it there.

For some unknown reason God wants me to answer this gentlemenís question even if itís for the reason of someone else reading and learning from it.

Preaching has always been my calling and first love even before I started cheating and after I quit it will still be. I just want to let yaíll in on a secret of why Iíve strived to be one of the best at cheating. The bible says, ďWhatever thy hands find to do, do it well cause there is no reward in sheol the grave in which you are going to. I forgot what version it was in (I have 28), so I did.

I donít know how I slipped and fell and ended up on the Gamblerís Turnpike but Iím about to get off soon, the sign up ahead says ďThis Road Leads to Eternal LifeĒ but there is also a warning sign underneath the words. It says drive very carefully because this road is very narrow and definitely slippery when wet.

Cheaters and Magicians Are In the Same Boat.

The Bible states ďLiars and thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God.ď Do your own research but start at the 10 Commandments.


Card cheaters are nothing more than Table Performing Pasteboard Magicians. Like stage magicians, street magicians and club magicians, they all still do magic or card manipulations but are categorized differently because of the area in which they do their tricks.

Hence, the expert card cheater is a magician whose stage is the card table and his audience the card players. He doesnít ask for donations and he doesnít have a set salary, his income is based upon the amount of money the card player(s) have and will lose that day/night.

A guy wrote me saying, ďIf you are only cheating the very rich that do not even feel the loss of their money, or if you are cheating other sharps, I think it's justified.Ē

Cheating/Stealing is never justified.

Letís change the characters of his story To Eve and God. Eve (the thief) just coveted and stole from God (the richest being in the universe because everything in it is His even you) and it did matter even to Almighty God that she stole a fruit which cost God nothing but a thought or a word from His lips to make. Itís the principle, if God says, ďthou shalt not steal,Ē He means it; stealing can and will never be justified ever. He cannot change and He cannot lie.

My Final Thoughts: Cheaters are table-performing magicians that are thieves but not necessarily liars. Their problem is stealing and greed and on Judgment Day they will be held accountable before God for their actions if they donít accept Jesus as their attorney or Lord and Savior.


Magicians and Ventriloquist are Liars and Deceivers.

Example 1. You see this card now Iím placing it on top of the deck (the magician does a second deal) now watch me place your card here on the table. (RIGHT HERE YOU LIED. YOU KNEW THAT YOU DID NOT PLACE THAT PERSONíS CARD ON THAT TABLE; YOU INTENTIONALLY DECEIVED AND LIED TO THEM)

Example 2: A Ventriloquist makes is appear as though a dummy is talking when itís not. Thatís deceiving the onlooker even though itís done in fun. Note: The first time it was ever done, it wasnít for fun, it was to make Eve believe that God was holding back power from them to make them be as gods and to steal their property which was earth.

How the Devil tricked Eve.

1. He used a snake and charmed her. The flying snake was the most beautiful creature on earth. As it flew through the air it gave an appearance of dazzling brightness, having the color and brilliancy of burnished gold).
2. He used Ventriloquism to throw his voice and make it appear that the serpent had the power of speech when it had not.
3. He lied. He lied for the purpose of stealing Adamís domain earth. This is why Christ had to come as the second Adam and reclaim the property of his near of kin (Adam) to buy (redeem) back the land (earth) by His blood. This was a territorial law of the Israelites and God abided by this rule.
Note: The Devil lied and threw his voice, the exact same techniques as the magician and Ventriloquist uses to accomplish their tricks or goals.
Eve told God that the serpent beguiled her and the Lord accepted her testimony as being true.
Letís look at the meaning of beguile
Beguile means to trick, 1. to lead by deception. 2. To engage the interest of (the people or public) by or as if by guile. (This sound like a magician to me) synonyms see deceive.

Deceive. To cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid. To deceive by wiles.

This is exactly what card cheats and magicians use to accomplish their goal. The magician uses it for entertainment, money and prestige, the Card or Dice cheat uses it to get money and the Devil used it to steal Adams domain (earth) and gain power. See Note * below.

*Note: See Job 2 and Heb. 1:1,2. 11:3-Where God made worlds (more than one) and each son of God was to appear representing his world. Satan is shown here representing earth at that time but since then Jesus died for our sins and is now our representative, mediator and Savior of earth. Also read the parable of the Shepard who had 100 sheep (worlds) and had to leave them to save this one lost sheep (world).

If you read Gen 3 you will see that the Devil employed all three to accomplish his goal. I guess my Lord is directing me now to save the so-called Christian magicians as well as the Christian card sharks.

Lying on any level is wrong and those who do it will be held accountable. On Judgment Day societyís reasoning and thoughts on which is the lesser sin wonít matter. Sin is sin to God. Imagine committing only 1 sin a day, you would consider yourself a very good person, almost perfect right but on judgment day if you live to be 70 years old and died, you would have committed 25,550 sins; this is why we need Jesus as our Attorney or Savior because only 1 is too much for God. If you donít think thatís a lot now imagine yourself getting paid $25,550 to do a magic show.

Synonyms Deceive, mislead, delude, beguile mean to lead astray or frustrate usually by underhandedness. Deceive implies imposing a false idea or belief that causes ignorance, bewilderment, or helplessness? Tried to deceive me about the cost? Mislead implies a leading astray that may or may not be intentional? The confusing sign misled me? Delude implies deceiving so thoroughly as to obscure the truth? We were deluded into thinking we were safe? Beguile stresses the use of charm and persuasion in deceiving?

My Final Thoughts: Magicians and Ventriloquist are liars and deceivers. Their problem is lying and maybe greed for money or prestige, and even though they may feel that a white lie to make their trick more amazing is okay, lying is still lying to God on any level and on Judgment Day they will be held accountable if they donít accept Jesus as their attorney or Lord and Savior.

For the record to those who might be interested, the best cheats that Iíve ever met was magicians in some kind of way or another including me.

I also want to let you know that most black cheats that I am around being that Iím black, really and truly believe in God and know the bible quite well. God donít want any of His children especially the sinners to be lost so He has to get His message to them in some kind of way; I believe, not that Iím right, thatís why Heís keeping me around and how Heís using me. Who can talk better to a cheat than a cheat?

If Iíve offended any one here by telling the truth as I see it, put an H on your chest and HANDLE IT. Friends donít lie to friends. Youíll see if what I just wrote is true on Judgment Day when God will bring all things to your remembrance of how He tried to save you.

My question to yaíll? Why is it that one of the first books that magicians recommend to beginners is ďExpert at the Card TableĒ a card cheating book if they both donít go hand to hand? Please donít write me and answer this. Iím only kiddingÖ

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jun 22, 2004 08:01PM)
I don't want to get to heavy here but their are many people like me that feel that ES Andrews was a magician not a card cheat.

The reason I feel that he was a magician is that he wrote and published the book because he needed the money.

Most magicians don't really cheat because I think that it is not in their nature to cheat. ES Andrews could do three card monte and in the early 1900's a real three card monte man could have amde a living doing three card monte for money. Or at least to get a steak to get him going again.

So there is a very good chance ES Andrews was a magician.

We just don't know... Why would a magician pretend that they were a card shark and write a book that exposes card shark moves?

Could anyone do that today and make a living at it?
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jun 22, 2004 08:10PM)
I do believe in God in some way, and find this very interesting. I don't think magicians are breaking any rules. They bring joy and happyness in people's lives, I don't think God will dislike it.
(DOC what's up with the thingy we had a conversation about in the PM's?)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 23, 2004 11:21AM)
It is my limited understanding that Andrews, who is said to be Erdnase by some, by all accounts was not a magician but a gambler. It stands to reason that them who think he was Andrews can not say he was a magician.
Having said that I am not sure what a magician is.
I mean, is Doc, for example, a magician? He does not regard himself a magician but he is regarded by his girlfriend as a magician, the one who calls him Houdini that is.

The insights Erdnase gave that relate to a gamblers mind and cheating technique and life are too close to the mark to have been based on observation or imagination. I think this is an honest book that pulls no punches and tells no lies. For this reasons I think he was a cheat. I think like others he learnt from magicians and addapted and developed the moves for the card table. Like a forger can learn from a printer.

Incidentally,I for one do not think he was Andrews as I have read evidence to the contrary.

I was just thinking about these magnetic dice.
If there are magnets in both the dice then would they not stick to each other?
Would that not spoil the play.
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Jun 23, 2004 04:57PM)
With respect to the dice I own, you can feel them sleightly attracting or repelling each other [b]IF[/b] you hold them in certain positions and [b]IF[/b] you are intent on finding something suspicious. I personally wouldn't use them to cheat (I don't cheat anyway) for fear that someone in the know might examine them closely and detect a problem, assuming that I couldn't first switch them out without detection (which it appears Doc can do). It's entirely a non-issue for me because I use the dice for magic purposes and the way I've structured the routines eliminates the possibility of detection.

Larry D.

P.S. - I don't pretent to be a gambling expert. That's not my area.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 23, 2004 07:13PM)
I would just like to say that ya'll see Larry and Glen discussing if Erdnase was a real cheat etc? Well God forbid that if something happens to me, I wouldn't want any guessing if I was a cheat, I am.

I believe this maybe one of the first times that magicians were actually able to talk to a real cheat instead of reading things about one and guessing. Besides that I don't want anyone stealing the little glory I have as being one because of power, greed or prestige of being a famous gambling magician demonstrator etc. Iíve really worked hard to achieve my skills even though I was deceived by gambling magicians writers and demonstrators I hold no grudge because everything thatís is done is done for a reason even if we donít understand why at this time in our life.

Stories about cheaters like Erdnase, Dad Stevens, Allen Kennedy and Walter Scott are blown out of proportion because of guessing about them and so forth, What if I actually spoke to one and got the real insight is what I'm trying to give those who are seeking it; the good and the bad side of everything I've experienced so far,

Walter Scott couldn't answer rebuttals to defend himself or the art of cheating from Dai Vernon but I can. When a top class card manipulator says don't critique meaning exactly how he mentioned it in his post (I'm not trying to start anything up) I've would have accepted this statement as true if I was still in the stages of studying as many of you as if it was etched in stone because I would feel in my heart that he ought to know better than I if he's one of the top cheating magicians in the United States.

This is why I made so many mistakes and why Iím speaking out because as a student of the gambling books, I believed all that the magician writers wrote because I didnít know. Iím trying to save as many of yaíll from traveling this long road as I possibly can.

Even though everything happens for a reason, I've learned to realize that no one has all the answers because new cheating moves are being invented everyday like the one Jason demonstrated in Shade and it's too much to try to get all of this info and to practice and learn it. I've also learned that we all have our specialties and this doesn't mean that one cardsharp is better then the other, he just prefer certain techniques better than others or practices what he need in order to get the money.

I'm just here talking and trying to help as many as possible while trying not to make it appear as though that I'm arrogant and have all the sense and no one else has any. I know that I won't be able to please all in this area but I have to try at all cost anyway.

Larry D, Tommy and Elknase thanks for writing and voicing your views and all is appreciated.

One can't learn if one doesn't ask questions.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jun 24, 2004 12:12AM)
I have several pairs of magnetic dice and yes, they do slightly repel each other.but, it is very sleight. Also, if you hold a magnet to them they will stick...real dice don't do that.

Another old trick (may be an old wives tail) is to keep a pocket compass on a dice table and see if the needle moves. (Obviously, if there is no magnet, the needle should remain stable.)

Good luck and enjoy!

Magically yours,
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jun 24, 2004 12:42AM)
Hello Doc,

Your posts are as always thought provoking and controversial. You state the following and I quote,

'Cheaters and Magicians Are In the Same Boat'

Well I do have to disagree with this. In the case of magicians, they are publically acknowledged as entertainers. People actually pay for the pleasure of being 'deceived' and 'astonished' and willingly enter into this contract as long as the magician is entertaining and skilled. The professional cheat is in a much darker area setting out with the intention to steal from someone who does not know they are being stolen from. What is important here is the motivation, the intention behind the action that really gives it meaning.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 24, 2004 04:29AM)
Hey Paul thanks for writing and expressing your viewpoint I appreciate it very much. Each individual has his or her own religious views on matters such as this and they should be respected for it. Not everyone believes in God so pushing a viewpoint that an individual donít believe in isnít worth a hill of beans. I donít know what your moral standards are but on Judgment Day ONLY GODíS VIEWPOINT AND STANDARDS WILL MATTER AND NOT SOCIETYíS. You should think about this because ďthere is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death (Prov. 14;12).

You say that people pay for the pleasure of being deceived which mean lied to (for the meaning please read my previous post). This may be true but that doesnít mean that itís right. There are people who pay to see fighters fight to the death just for their entertainment but that doesnít mean that thatís right either.

You speak of intention your intention is to entertain people at the cost of disobeying Godís word (thou shalt not bear false witness) for money. This evaluation not only shows that you are a liar (to those you are entertaining), it also shows that money is your god and youíre willing to break the first commandment of the 10 Commandments ďthou shalt have no other gods before meĒ just for money.

So in street terminology I can rightfully say that you lie to people to get money and this is a 1st cousin to conning people. Why? Remember in the beginning of the movie Shade where the lady lied to the gas attendant about losing her ring? She lied to get his money and because of his greed for money in which was his god, he got conned. W. C. Fieldís said it the best, ďYou Canít Cheat an Honest Man.

How can you cheat or Con an Honest God fearing man? First of all he wonít be gambling and playing cards and neither would he had tried to make extra money for himself for finding a ring in which he did not find. He would have given the finder of the ring the information that he received from the lady so that he could receive the $1,000 and in the process wouldnít have been conned out of his.

If you feel in your heart that itís okay to lie for money even if itís for entertainment purposes than please feel free to do so. Just donít lie to yourself about the facts of your actions while doing it. I know that Iím wrong for cheating people but then again other hustlers I know donít think so, so you would have a different evaluation coming from them.

All of us here basically know in our heart what is right and wrong even if we care not to do it. My job is to tell what I believe God says and give you scripture proof so that when you get time, you can read it for yourself so as not to just take my word on it. I cheat and since my mouth ainít no prayer book, I need you to know this so that on Judgment Day when we all have to stand before God we wonít be able to say, ďGod I didnít know, I thought Doc was just going a little bit overboard with what he was talking about?Ē

One more thing before I go. If you really think that itís okay to lie to your audience then stand before God and do a trick and lie to Him (while entertaining) and see whatíll happen to you. Read Acts 5:1-11 and youíll see what happened to a guy and his wife who lied directly to God. Note: Because God doesnít immediately kill us as soon as we lie doesnít mean that He doesnít have the right to. ďSin is the transgression of the lawĒ ďand the wages of sin is death.Ē By right we must immediately die as soon as we sin, but thank God we donít have to because Jesus stands before the Father begging Him not to kill us for his sake.

Bottom Line, stop pointing your finger at me especially when we're both in the same boat.

Your Friend


P.S. Don't forget to deceive means to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 24, 2004 07:23AM)
It is interesting to draw comparisons between Erdnase and Doc and I note they have, by and large, the same philosophy on cheating. With no disrespect to Doc I think Erdnase puts it more eloquently in his Preface and Introduction in Expert at the Card Table.
If you read the Erdnase preface and Introduction you can ask yourself if you agree with what he says. I personally find it difficult to disagree with anything Erdnase says. Such as ďWe have neither grievance against the fraternity nor sympathy for so-called ďvictims.Ē A varied experience has impressed us with the belief that all men who play for any considerable stakes are looking for the best of it.Ē

I, like Erdnase and Diogenes, am yet to find the unknown one.

ďBut not a man! The one! The one who puts above himself the others!
Then, Diogenes walked through Athens in broad daylight carrying a lighted lamp,
saying that he was looking for a man! an honest man!! ď
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jun 24, 2004 10:47AM)
I must say that when I joined this excellent forum, I never thought it would impinge on the realms of both pychology, moral philosophy and religion. This is most refreshing. Doc, I can well see why you may have taken my post as something of a moral judgement on your approach to gambling and your profession. In fact it was not my intention to become a moral censor and I apologise if my post sounded like this. In my view, as soon as you invoke a moralistic right and wrong, black and white approach, all decent reflective dicussion descends into polarised hollering and flag waving. As I am sure you know and tommy also notes in his post above, gambling is a massively grey and complex area with regard to morality.

To me actions never occur in a vacuum. What I was trying to do was bring a motivational analysis to the table when thinkng about the similarities and differences between magicians and those in the profession of gambling and cheating. You and Jason have already had a similar discussion over the Macmillan switch. Crucial to the analysis of the switch is the intention of its creator. For example, this move, invented to simulate a gambling artiface for demonstration purposes only, would be analysed very differently from the same move created to BE a gamblng sleight at the card table. In my opinion, the former is successful but the latter is dangerous and risky due to the card retaining the palm shape.

It is true that magicians 'lie' to their audiences and in this area there are similarities with the cheat. But there are also differences. The cheat hones his skills and specialises in perfecting a small number of effective and hopefully utterly deceptive gambling 'moves'. Magicians are much more flexible and able to incorporate a range of sleights and moves to augment a magical mystery to less exacting standards. And yes, I do think that there are differences in goals between the prof cheat and the magician. The cheats motivation is to actively win money by subtefuge from someone unsuspecting. The magician is advertising his disceptions and offering to entertain for money. This is a motivational difference. Whether one is more morally reprehensible than the other, I have no idea and would not presume to judge. But it is all very interesting and stimulating. One of my passions is for clarity and insight and I hate it when I come off unclear and fuzzy which unfortunately is quite often. I do hope this is not one of those occasions.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jun 24, 2004 11:17AM)
On 2004-06-23 12:21, tommy wrote:
It is my limited understanding that Andrews, who is said to be Erdnase by some, by all accounts was not a magician but a gambler. It stands to reason that them who think he was Andrews can not say he was a magician.
Having said that I am not sure what a magician is.
The facts that Erdnase was ES Andrews was told to Martin Gardner and Vernon by Drake who was the first publisher of the book.

Drake being the publisher was one of the only men that was said to have known him being the publisher of the book expert at the card table.

Second Mr Smith the person that did the drawings from life hands of Andrews was tracked down by Martin Gardner and was a guest at a magic convention in Chicago.

He also told that the mans name was Andrews...

I have seen no proof that this part is not true...

I feel that Andrews was a magician... The reason I feel this is that most of the card sharp expo is written up for demonstration. Not for cheating at the card table.

The card sharp part is filled with magic terms...

That is just part of the reason I feel that Andrews was a magician...

Here is a link to a thread I started a while ago. Some may find it interesting reading...

Message: Posted by: JBSmith1978 (Jun 24, 2004 11:51AM)
Hmm, Reubens. Whatever happened to that cute lady that worked behind the counter? =x
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 24, 2004 01:02PM)
Hee hee. That was good Paul. Of course you are right. A cheat is a thief and a magician is an entertainer. They are not in the same boat. They are not in the same ocean if you ask me. However one must take into account the following.

The magician deals with an audience and the cheat deals with players. Audiences and players are not in the same boat either. The audience of the magician is not out to take away the magicians money. The players, who the cheat deals with, are, in the cheats mind, out to take his money by hook or by crook.

That last point is arguable but I have to agree with the cheat and say that players will cheat if they are sure they can get away with it. I read somewhere; ďYou will hear players say that a cheat is worse than a thief because he steals from his friends and they can and do react strongly, violently sometimes murderously, against a cheater.Ē
This might be so but you will not find many friends at a high stakes poker table. Those that are friends are likely to be colluding to a degree. What you will find at the card table are plenty of foes. Also the people who are of this view are the most likely to cheat if they could.

This is a disparaging point of view of professional card players but it is what I have come to believe through experience.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 24, 2004 04:44PM)
Paul, Tommy thanks for writing and expressing your views. We're just discussing things here and as I said before, everybody is entitled to their opinion, this is what makes the world go around. Keep on talking and asking questions because I like it. We all can learn from each other.

Thanks again and I'm glad to have ya'll as friends.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: CardiniMan (Jun 26, 2004 03:51PM)
Man Iím glad a friend told me to read these posts. I must say it's been a real pleasure following this thread. Better than most books, magic or otherwise I've been reading of late.


My grandfather was s different kind of cheat. He was a pool shark. One of the best of his time, his friends knew his as The Duke (a queens boy). Because he was black, he would never get invited to any of the high paying pool tournaments, but he would always tell me he never cared. He would still go to Vegas, or chicago or where ever they were held and wait for his "ego playing white boys" to show up to the real money games that night at the pool halls. The money the white guys won during the day, he and his buddies would take from them at night.

The reason I'm bringing this up was that when I was a kid, I use to spend some of my summer at my grandparents, so my mom and dad could vacation. (Not a bad idea come to think of it, now that I have kids). At night we would always go down to the basement were the table was and we would shoot pool. It was at this time of day his friends would start to come by, most of them as my grandfather would say were "card guys but was cut from the same cloth". Skill and Acting...you could here them talk about that all the time. You cant do what we do without being the best at both. But I do remember my grandfather once saying that, being able to run fast was a good thing too.

Today I can look back and remember the card guys wishing they could do what my grandfather did and vice versa. When you cheat as a pool shark, you pretty much show them your cheating right in their face...you get to show how good you are...while the card guys do it in secrecy.

Being a cheat is tough to begin with, being a black cheat is a whole different world, plusses and minuses abound. I can only imagine what it's like Doc.

Doc, I'm the guy who produced the tv special on Black American magicians. I also thought about doing a film on the black pool shark underground that still exists(even today blacks are not invited to major pool tournaments) but I probably wont because I know my grandfather may not have wanted me to. I remember him telling me he and his buddies where like the mafia, they donít like to advertise.

I hope someday we meet, if I get up to new york I'd love to shoot some pool with you ; ) and get some schooling on your seconds. If you ever get to chicago you should contact Bill Dennis. He's the only black marlo student I'm aware of. He's got a couple of moves that can fly past marks. He doesn't play or do magic, but one helluva great guy.

Of course if you ever get down to South Florida...drop me a line

Be safe,

Glenn Farrington
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jun 26, 2004 04:05PM)

awesome post. I think you're bang on regarding the main difference between a pool hustler vs a card cheat.

While I'd love to see a film about what you mentioned, you are a good grandson to respect your grandfather's wishes.

T.Joseph O'Malley
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Jun 26, 2004 05:56PM)
On 2004-06-26 16:51, CardiniMan wrote:
If you ever get to chicago you should contact Bill Dennis. He's the only black marlo student I'm aware of. He's got a couple of moves that can fly past marks. He doesn't play or do magic, but one helluva great guy.

Of course if you ever get down to South Florida...drop me a line

Be safe,

Glenn Farrington


Bill Dennis!!! I used to work with Bill Dennis at Houdini's Pub in a Chicago Sub - Oak Forest! Alonge with Bill Malone...

Glenn I am doing a lecture for the Ft. Myers (Don's) Magic and Fun Shop in Ft. Myers Beach FL On July 1 2004... And will be three days in Orlando FL...

Perhaps we could get together...
Message: Posted by: CardiniMan (Jun 26, 2004 08:09PM)
Hey another 2n Glenn. Malone was the one that introduced me to Bill Dennis. I sent you a private message regarding florida.

Thanks TJ. I appreciate the kind words.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 27, 2004 08:19PM)
CardiniMan that was a great read, I wish you had more... If so I'd like to read them too.

I heard of a great black old pool player while on the circuit who passed about a 1 1/2 ago, was this your grandfather?

Your New Friend


CardiniMan you know itís a shame that there are no great movies about our famous black hustlers that have paved the way for us new comers and has sinced passed the torch.

You hear great stories about Scarne and the like but what you donít hear about is when Scarne came to the service men showing them how they can be scammed that they rob him as well while seeing if he could do that stuff in a real game. They laughed so hard at Scarne telling him but they didnít teach you that? And they didnít teach you that? And I know they didnít teach you that.

I have footage of this same man Prett **** may he rest in peace, that told me that story after watching Steve Forteís gambling series tape no. 4 on dice and got up and got his dice out and demonstrated some of his stuff and say on certain moves that he saw Steve do, ďthat this is what your man was trying to do.Ē

I have to state for the record that Steve is still the best dice switching manipulator by far but my friend did a hell of a good job at what he knew; he also gave Steve his props on his ability.

Oh I have to say this before I go, my teacher Billy (Willie ****) who passed a year before Prett after me showing him Steveís tape no. 4 did every move that Steve did and more. I didnít meet Steve at this time so my teacher amazed me when he went off showing me dice switching moves especially the ones that wasnít on his tape.

Can I Do It

To answer a question that might be lingering in some of your minds. No, he didnít teach me those dice switches because I wasnít into dice at this time. He told me if I really wanted to learn to first practice and learn from what you see Steve is doing and only then will he show me how to do the other stuff but if I didnít learn that, I didnít deserve to learn anything better.

For the record, I have to say that my teacher and Steve were about even in their own way but Steve was definitely better at switching then Prett but I donít think he was at shooting the dice on a regular surface. I threw Prett two dice into an open hand in which he immediately threw out (Blacks do this to stop controlled dice shots) and he made his numbers by controlling them; that move was awesome. He showed me the move and I taped him but I still havenít figured out how he did it even though I have a good idea. Iím just too lazy to practice it.

Right now Iím like a magician who know the dice moves but donít know how to apply it to the game of craps. So while Iím still learning what I need to know, I play the role in the crew as a sucker who donít know how to play but can switch them in and out in an emergency.

I Never Learned

My teacher Billy passed on without ever teaching me those switches because of a gamblerís rule if a sucker is sleep, donít wake him up. Yes the rule applied to me at one time too and still applies in certain areas of the trade. I didnít know much about dice at that time and was still considered a sucker to him in this area even though I was an expert with cards. To be honest with yaíll, I still donít know as much as I would like but I have a dice switch that he was proud of that he said will get all the money. One day Iíll show it to yaíll.

Bottom line, after I learned something new and showed him out of excitement that I was able to do something that he couldnít, thatís when he surprised me and showed me that he was able to do it and ONLY THEN is when he took me to the next level because I SHOWED INTEREST IN REALLY TRYING TO LEARN HOW TO DO THAT PARTICULAR MOVE. He never gave up the secret until I knew about it and this is why I canít tell either.

A magician (card-dice hustler) is never supposed to reveal the secret. Note: This is a lesson that we got from the magicians that we adhere to better than yaíll.

Your Friend


P.S. CardiniMan, we have our legends too but it seems at though nobody wants to hear about them except us and this is why Iím speaking out but not teaching the moves. I hope that more will do so like you because these stories has to be told no matter who tells it.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jun 28, 2004 06:37PM)
Well Doc, if you want movies someone should type the stories down. Is there a good book available on black cheats/hustlers/gamblers?

If not, may I suggest someone would start gathering stories. I believe there would be an interest for this from a variety of audience e.g. magicians, historians, academic disciplines, cultural studies etc. Certainly a worthwhile task.

Come to think about, I cannot remember seeing a proper movie on Martin luther King either. Can this be true? Please tell me my memory is poor and that there are several good movies about the peaceful fighter.
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jun 28, 2004 09:13PM)
"Black and White Gamblers Running Wild" by John Terry Fort is an autobiography of An African American card shark and professional gambler.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 29, 2004 02:52AM)
Slakk thanks for the info.

A Comment About The Movie Shade

It may not be a great thing to say this here but I will. There are blacks in the gambling spots talking about how we got (Jamie Foxx) shown as suckers in the movie Shade and they don't like it even though they say it was an aight (alright) movie. One thing I did note after they talked about the movie, they started talking about how some of the great black hustlers would have ran rings around them guys; exactly what I wrote in my story in which the best of both worlds donít lose to each other.

I wrote a post speaking about how the movie should have been directed toward the black communities for better revenue but it was taken down as being discriminatory to some readerís. I really canít see why when it is us who you see at the major events always trying to hustle somebody. The Blacks do it on the outside and the White does it on the in. I know this occur especially at pool tournaments because my White friendís who I hung out with were rated about 9th in the world as a 9 ball champion, so we all do run together at times. We had Monster J*** of One Pocket on our team.

A Film Idea

I have a friend who is now talking about doing a movie about the hustling game and he is going to school for this mess as we speak. Even though I wish it could be done, I donít believe it will because of lack of revenue by this individual. I do have two old classmates from grade school that does have capitol and has made low budget movies who I might speak to regarding it. One did Crime Partners who I will not name and the other who I will which is Barry Cooper who did New Jack City, Above the Rim and Sugar Hill.

As quiet as kept, Sugar Hill was done about my friends that I grew up with who lived across the street from Barry in 149th street between 7th and 8th Ave. Check out Ebony 1977 Crime on Crime Magazine for more info. This was around the time when Smokey Robinson was singing at the Apollo and had to run for his life when someone got shot and also when Nicky Bonds said on nation wide TV that he was so big that the President couldnít touch him and right after that his butt got locked up with the quickness. This was all incidents related to the Drug War in Harlem.

Imagine this as a movie idea. A friend inviting you to his club to show off and when youíre about to enter you stumble over a guy whoís alive, that has been nailed to the floor face down with hands and feet stretched out. This really happened back in the day in which many at the gambling spot still talk about now and then, but this was way before I ever appeared on the scene.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: slakk (Jun 29, 2004 08:38AM)
The author mentions the punch deal in that book.

That is a great story about the joint in Harlem, where guy was nailed to the floor. It would be a great movie scene.

It adds meaning to the term, "getting nailed".
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 29, 2004 10:01AM)
Big Julie in ďGuys and DollsĒ made the best dice move I ever saw.

A black man did the best flourish I ever saw, the great Sammy Davis, Jr. that was with a gun.
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jun 29, 2004 10:43AM)
Ricky Jay's dice moves in "Deadwood" are great, too.
Message: Posted by: appl3tard (Jun 29, 2004 12:25PM)
Doc got up a video, http://cyngaporemagic.com/doc/
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jun 30, 2004 01:01AM)
I don't think Big Julie made any dice moves in "Guys and Dolls." He did use his own dice that had the spots removed.
Does anybody know the famous magician who played Big Julie in the stage play version, starring Milton Berle.
Message: Posted by: Partizan (Jun 30, 2004 01:45AM)
Doc, There are a few gambler/violent movies is post production at the moment.
One film is totaly Black based UK, much violence and cons.
Another one is about a card player. Not too much info on this one.

No titles for you as we only had a cover title for the footage.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 30, 2004 02:23AM)
Thanks for the information Partizan, if you think that they might need a double please let me know.

Your New Friend


P.S. More Stuff will be up soon.
Message: Posted by: LiquidSn (Jun 30, 2004 02:40AM)
That is the best dice switch I have seen. natural! no way anyone can suspect anything.

the card switch is great too! a true professional at work here.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 30, 2004 02:51AM)
LiquidSn I appreciate your compliment and thanks.

I just want to state for the record, I practice and make up stuff like this because I'm scared for my life. I don't wanna have to say I wish I would have practiced and maybe I wouldn't have gotten caught. When that time comes, I want to have no regrets.

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: Metalepsis (Jun 30, 2004 06:22AM)
I had trouble with the viewing of that movie, mates.
Any advice?

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jun 30, 2004 06:27AM)
Go to the Apple Quicktime site. Make sure you have the most recent version downloaded. If not, download it and restart your PC (or Mac). Try again. If it doesn't work, try saving the item to your desktop - that's what I had to do - by right clicking on the underlined link on the page and then choosing Save.

My advice, if you have to save it to your desktop etc, would be not to pass these movies around unless Doc says it's cool to do so. That's just my 2 cents.

Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jun 30, 2004 06:47AM)
DOC, that is amazing. Just amazing. I watched these video's tens of times by now and I can't get over the huge skill you have. WOW.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 30, 2004 09:14AM)
Tielie I want to thank you for your comment. It is because of you that I put these videos up. I promised you something and I kept my word. I have more that will be posted soon but I have to edit it first.

You made me get off of my lazy butt and I thank you for it. Not only do I thank you for that, I thank you for starting this post. I guess you have your answer now? A real cheat did write this...

Mr. Tristian thanks for posting and thanks for letting me know about this thread and defending me like you did at the other site.

To All, No one needs my approval for my videos, do as you wish with them, I just wanted to show that I didn't just talk the talk that I could walk the walk too.

Note: To all who showed me moves in secret and told me not to show them, they will remain a secret in my book.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jun 30, 2004 09:43AM)
I say again I loved the vids.

I also like that you did a bit of acting on the dice clip to show the things you do and say whilst in action rather than doing move to camera.

Cant wait for the deals.
Message: Posted by: RazzleDazzle (Jun 30, 2004 10:09AM)
Absolutely wonderful moves doc. The majority of us would be lucky to learn something (ANYTHING) from your writings and videos. Thank goodness we have these forums and this medium to allow us to interact with you...

Message: Posted by: budionodarmawan (Jun 30, 2004 02:43PM)
Do you have any email doc ?
I want to correspondent with you but your pm inbox always full.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jun 30, 2004 05:36PM)
From An Unknown Writer

Within this 2 months, actually I begin put my interest in card gambling area. And I have search a lot for the resource.It is quite difficult for me to find the real world gambling in My country since gambling is prohibited here.i did read in your post that if someone want to be a good cheater, she or he should spend time in the gambling world. Like casino. But I cant do that here. Maybe you have some advice for that.

Where should I start to learn. Which book should I bought. Ö So if you not objected, I want to learn some gambling or card cheating principle from you. Because you mention of the great card expert whom were your teachers. And you mention so many technique that I never heard.

Thank you

Thanks for writing me.

You say that you read my post right? Then you should know that our rule is to keep a sucker sleep meaning not to teach them, let them learn on their own and let them make their own mistakes like we all did. Cheating has to be earned and you earn that by trial, error and experience.

You say gambling is prohibited in your country well you're in a great country but if there are playing cards in your country then there also are games going on too because people will play cards in their homes.

Regarding casino stuff, I know nothing about it, Our rule is if you can't cheat, don't play and blacks are spotted by casino cameras before they enter the casino so that's a no no for me. I'm not prejudice, those are the facts.

As far as books and videos are concerned, you have to read through the post and take the advice that was given by some of these guys. That means the videos that was highly recommended by them is the ones that you buy first. You read but you don't read and comprehend.

You say you want to learn card cheating principles from me, well then read my post and read between the lines like I did when studying teachers like Darwin Ortiz etc.

Bottom Line to have you as a friend it would be great but to have you as a student, I would not; at least not at this time in your life. You say you read my stuff but you still ask me to teach you, if youíve read my post you should know that I donít teach.

To be honest with you, why should I teach you when it's my goal to break you?

Iím a Hustler Not a Magician. A magician will sit down and help you to get better, Iíll sit down with the intention of getting you broke.

Oh one more thing before I go, you really don't understand how far we take it to keep a secret.

I have a friend that has never told his wife that he cheated because he said that if she would ever get mad at him for any reason that she might tell. I know that he was not lying to me because he would let me break her and split the money down the middle with me.

I've also seen him break her and told her in front of everybody, "I told you not to gamble." His wife has died since that time and still he never told her that he cheated. So on that note alone, why should I teach you?

Still Your Friend

Message: Posted by: pryan90 (Jun 30, 2004 06:25PM)
Great videos, now I have voice to put with your posts. I also have a visual example of some of your work. Would it be out of the rules within your circle to post a little more card moves? I would be interested to see a video of you Cold Decking (I believe that's what its called). I would also like to see a real cheat deal seconds and bottoms. If it isn't ok, then I understand. Thanks for posting those two videos though.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 2, 2004 07:57AM)
Docs new videos are up.

A bottom deal and a shade switch.

Great stuff!!!!!!!!!!

Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 2, 2004 02:29PM)
Hello again Doc,

I feel very much like kukram, these are truly outstanding examples of the craft. What I particularly like are the natural 'real world' rhythmic feel of the moves and switches. At present I have been spending ALOT of time with the bottom deal and now with your video. In fact, I think I am word perfect. But I really like the way you grip the deck. Unlike the Gene Maze method of having both the index and second finger at the front, you maintain the familiar mechanics grip, blast you! Doc, before I become totally committed to the Gene Maze handling, is your method a modification Gene's or a very different method? If so, is there a source you suggest I could study. I've been trying to figure out if you take with the index or third finger, but that part of the image is too dark on my laptop. Whatever, you have generously given us a fantastic demonstration. Most appreciated.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 2, 2004 03:27PM)
I havn't checked but the grip could be the walter scott or the art buckley grip( well its in thier books anyway)

The take was the index.

Im thinking of changing to the mechanics grip for my bottom after seeing Docs and forte's.

Erdnase grip for demos and mechanics for........ Not demo :)

It was a smoothe and natural deal doc.
As stated earlier, great stuff!
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 2, 2004 04:56PM)
Thanks kukram. As luck would have it I've already ordered Buckley's card control.So I'll take a look.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jul 2, 2004 05:11PM)
With all the respect I have to say your bottomdealing doesn't impress me nearly as much as your other moves. Do you really think the thumb should move? I don't move my thumb when dealing from the base and still I think it looks quite deceptive. When burned, people will probably notice the top card not being dealt, but I wouldn't cheat when people are suspicious. But I think your change in ritme is a big tell.

Still: much respect. It's better then mine and it's a big inspritation. I am currently working on the Erdnase method where the thumb DOES move. Can't get my fingers to keep away from flashing. If I move beyond that point, my bottomdeal will be flawless ;)

Thanks again DOC,

you're my biggest inspiration.

I have to take that reply back. Nothing wrong. I just noticed because:
1. I looked like a hawk
2. knew what to look for.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the rythm. However I still feel the take/deal changes a bit.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 2, 2004 05:17PM)
Hi Tielie,

You make an interesting point. It seems to me though that the thumb moves the top card across providing cover for any movement of the fingers as well as supporting the illusion of the top card being pushed off. At the right moment, it is pulled back in timing with the bottom being 'fed' to the table and looks very deceptive to my eye.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 2, 2004 06:35PM)
Paul there is a source you should study, it is that of Gene Maze. He was my first and last teacher of the bottom deal and my deal is nothing but a variant of his with my grip instead of his. I wanted to look uniform in all my deals so I set out to use the same grip and I did.

There is no books except Seconds, Centers and Bottoms and I combined Gene Mazes technique with Ed Marlo's and came up with what you now see.

I showed my bottom deal from a crucial view so that ya'll can learn from it, critique it and make it better. I was going to post a Gene Maze turn in handling of it but then people would have critiqued it as me not being able to do a bottom deal so I chose not to put it up.



Your Friend


P.S. I don't teach, I'm doing what Steve, Darwin, Jason and Andrew did on their videos, I'm just showing that it exist and what I feel is the correct way to do it in which is beneficial for my makeup and handling (not yours).

Teilie thanks for expressing that my bottom deal didn't impress you as much as my other moves. Why?

Tielie when people tend to see too much of a good thing, they stop looking at the effect and start comparing which is better and more amazing, this is why I didn't post everything at one time and the main reason why I didn't post my Cold Deck Moves first because once you see that, nothing else that I did would impress you. So this is why I'm saving that post for last.

I learned that people did the same evalution thing each time when I demonstrated my Cold Deck Moves in which I can do about 28. When I first did my basics they loved it but as I kept showing other cold deck moves they started comparing this one and that one etc. when they never saw any real ones in their life. I didn't like them saying that but couldn't help it because I do it myself.

I frequented a strip club everynight while hustling in ATL because the owner's let us trim the suckers for a P.C. I noticed after going a few times that out of 20 to 30 girls that was there who were all beautiful, I started comparing which one was the prettiest and best looking of them all.

I said all that to say this, if I just saw one of them on the street I would have been awed by her shape and beauty but since I had other pretty ladies to compare her to, she didn't look as pretty anymore.

I know that comparing can't be helped so on that note ya'll critique on.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 2, 2004 07:47PM)
A few people I know(including me) can't view the videos. What is mp4? The dice switch video plays fine. HELP!
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Jul 2, 2004 07:56PM)
Download quicktime, that should fix it :)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 2, 2004 08:41PM)
MPEG-4 is a format that is used using QuickTime.

What my friend told me to tell you.

Tell them to save your video on their computer before playing it. Right Click on the video link and click on Save Target As... followed by saving it to their prefered location.

I hope that this has been of some help.

Your Friend


P.S. I don't know how to do this video stuff at all, this is why I have a student of mine posting these for me.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 3, 2004 12:58AM)
Hi Doc,

Many thanks for your informative reply. I shall take your advise and persevere with the Gene maze handling for now and when I can do that deceptively, (will keep me busy for quite a while) I'll look into Marlo's ideas.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 3, 2004 01:34AM)
Paul you are welcome. To speed up your practice using Gene's grip, I would advise you to go to Dennis Behr Site and check out his stuff and handling, he does an excellent job at mostly everything he does.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: camador (Jul 3, 2004 07:59AM)
Hi Doc,

Nice bottom deal since we are watching a close up from the most critical angle and having a relatively slow dealing process. One of the things I like and I find more difficult in mine is to keep the tips of the left fingers at the top of the sides dealing with a whole deck and I suppose it is because I still use a push-off from master grip(although I try to do the push-off with the second phalange of the second finger and make it very slight). Iīm also practising the strike bottom from master grip which help with that problem although strike bottoms give rise to more frequent hungers.

Do you directly take the bottom with your index or do you first loosen it with your index in a backwards movement and then pull it out?

Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 3, 2004 08:53AM)
My computer says the file contains an error. This happens to others also.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 3, 2004 09:18AM)
Do not click and open the Link first or you will get an error, Right Click on the video link and click on Save Target As... followed by saving it to their prefered location. If this doesn't work for you, I don't know what will, I downloaded it just like he told me and it worked after I told my friend that ya'll was having problems.


To those who may be interested, my middle deal is up too.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jul 3, 2004 11:38AM)
Have you ever middle-dealt in a real game DOC? Your technique is so good that it doesn't matter for you to do a center or bottom, in my opinion. Both look equally good to me.
Once again I am stunned by your technique. Truely amazing. Work of art.
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 3, 2004 11:46AM)
Others and I tried right cicking on the link,"save as target" save to disk. "unknown error" comes up when trying to view it.
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jul 3, 2004 11:56AM)
Go to the directory you saved it and THEN play it. It'll work.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 3, 2004 01:18PM)
Tielie why are you not reading between the lines?



Message: Posted by: Samuel (Jul 3, 2004 01:20PM)
Cold decking is to exchange the deck on the table with an stacked one you have on your body?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 3, 2004 01:24PM)
Tielie don't forget when I showed the 9 of heart that I did seconds with the same grip too.

Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jul 3, 2004 01:33PM)
Yeah I knew you dealt from the base, but have you ever dealt from the middle in a game? That question, I couldn't find the answer to.

I am missing something. 9 of hearts? What video is it in? Think I miss that vid ...
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jul 3, 2004 02:53PM)
On 2004-07-03 12:46, slakk wrote:
Others and I tried right cicking on the link,"save as target" save to disk. "unknown error" comes up when trying to view it.

Very possibly, you may have to update your viewer. I know I did.
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 3, 2004 03:15PM)
Is that the bottom that is in Tony Giorgio's bottom deal manuscript? Very good.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 3, 2004 05:06PM)
Tielie why do you keep asking me the same question when I answered it the first time. Read my post in Capital Letters and it will tell you.

I see why magicians have problems learning moves. They skip over information and it's right in their face.

Can someone answer Tielie's question for him because his reading comprehension is very bad.

Message: Posted by: balducci (Jul 3, 2004 08:33PM)
Doc, you wrote:

"I know this to be true because Ive been a student of Walter Scott for over 13 years now and Im the real thing. Next to Gazzo, Im the best at this technique in the country."

In Phantoms (p. 198), Gazzo says he lost the "work" and can't show people how good he was at it. Did he eventually get it back for you to say you're the next best at this technique after him, or were you comparing yourself to Gazzo in his prime?

And thanks for your great videos ... and I'll say you look and act like a young guy, for an older one :)
Message: Posted by: camador (Jul 4, 2004 06:02AM)
Awesome middle deals doc. The front of the deck looks great in both middle deals throughout the dealing process as well as the left fingers holding the deck and the natural position of the deal. I suppose that the side-step middle deal is the one described by Marlo, isnīt it? Marlo uses a push-off of the middle card, do you also use a push-off of the middle card or you strike it directly with the index?

The only very very small thing I noted, above all if you turn the volume down and do not follow the rithm of your words, is that there is a small delay when you deal the centre card in comparison with the dealing of the top cards. I assume that this is a consequence of using a small step together with a strike tecnique instead of a push off that speed up the action although the left fingers looks much worse with the push-off.

Best Regards

p.s. keep videos coming. They are great and one of the few sources Iīve found reaching such a perfection in these type of sleights.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 4, 2004 06:17AM)
Camador thanks for the reply and the compliment. You know I don't teach that's why I posted it so ya'll can visualize how it's suppose to look and then make up your own way of doing it.

I will answer your question regarding the delay. At the card table there is no rhythm that you have to abide by, this is something that magicians like to emphasize in which they can't do themselves. I can stop dealing at anytime I like, look up at the T.V., tell a joke, make a comment, take a drink of soda/water or whatever is I prefer and still continue to deal as I did in my Side Step Video.

Your Friend


Balducci I was comparing myself with Gazzo in his prime. Gazzo had a one on one teaching from Walter so I have to give him the respect that is due to him. To me it's not about who's first, it's just about me being able to do it too.

To be honest with you he should be better than me because I learned from the book, but it should be noted that I was around when Gazzo was demonstrating his moves and the people always told me that I was better than Gazzo and my punch hole was way smaller than his.

Darwin has my work and Walter Scott's and Darwin with those that he has shown my work to says that my work if far superior.

Note: The reason why my work is superior to Walter's is because of the advancement of today's technology compared to his time and it's getting even better.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Peter Woerde (Jul 4, 2004 08:24AM)
Hey Doc,

you say you don't practice false deals anymore, because you can now cold deck. I can relate to that, since we magicians also "grow" into other routines that fit us better and therefor don't do the tricks we used to anymore.
I do have a question about that though.

I used to do some rubberband magic, but now I don't anymore. However, sometimes I just happen to be at a place without my props and I'm asked to do some magic. If there are rubberbands around, I do some tricks with them. That's the reason I still practice those tricks on occasion. I fall back on the routines I used to do, so I still need to practice those.

Of course, I occasionally fall back on something I haven't practiced for a long time, but for a magician the risk is much lower than for someone like you to fall back on something one hasn't practiced.

I figure there must be times you just can't cold deck for whatever reason. Do you fall back on the false deals when you can't cold deck, do you fall back on something else which you still do practice or don't you play at all? Or maybe I'm completely wrong in my assumption that occasions arise that you can't cold deck?

Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 4, 2004 08:36AM)
Great deals. Is Jim Swain's middle deal comparable? His website is:

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 4, 2004 08:39AM)
Swains center deal is pseudo.
Its in one of his books.

Miracles with cards I think
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jul 4, 2004 08:55AM)

You say you have passed beyond the stage in which you placed cards at the bottom, made HOPS!, and dealt from the bottom.

If you hopped the deck, I assume you don't do middle deals and never have done. But I can't know for sure by the posts you make, because on the other hand I don't think you would have become this good when you didn't use it. So you can't blame me. Never in your post you make it 100% clear.
Message: Posted by: Flec (Jul 4, 2004 12:46PM)
All true.

Message: Posted by: Samuel (Jul 4, 2004 06:34PM)

He actually wrote, "I'VE ADVANCED PAST THAT STAGE IN MY LIFE OF HOPPING THE DECK, PUTTING CARDS AT THE BOTTOM, ETC.", thus listing the sleights he did, but never do any more. He doesn't hop AND he doesn't bottom deal (nor does he middle deal any more). He uses cold decking.

This, as far as my readings can figure, is quite clear from the posts he have made. It's only you who alter his writings to your your liking.

Please do not critique when you can't even read correctly!
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 4, 2004 08:48PM)
Samuel, thanks for posting that. That's why I asked someone at the forum to explain it to you.

I Will Now Elaborate Since I Saw No One Helping Me.

(Tielie and Flec)

If you hopped the deck, I assume you donít do middle deals and never have done.


If you didnít make your last statement, Tielie, you would have called me an a**hole without words even though I maybe one anyway. Why would I spend years trying to perfect a middle deal, and I cheat for a living not to use it? Does that make any sense to you? Think about it? You see how these books have brainwashed you into believing that in which is not true; these are outright LIES.

These books are LIES perpetuated by magicians who have been told not to tell you that these moves are actually being used in games today as well as in the past (Allen Kennedy), and because of THESE LIES you made this statement, and Iím upset. LYING IS WRONG AND IS A SIN. AS I STATED IN MY PREVIOUS POST, THE FATE OF THE MAGICIAN IS THE SAME AS THE CHEAT.

Now you have Flec agreeing with you because either he doesn'tít know and has believed this LIE as well and refuses to read between the lines.

If I Cold Deck to get the money now, doesn'tít reading comprehension tell you without words that I used to bottom deal or middle deal to get the money? Doesn't my ability to middle deal at this level show you without words that I can do it good enough to get the money? Doesn't the words ďIíve advanced passed this (high school) stage in my life, and I no longer need to hop the deck or put cards at the bottomĒ further explain that I used to do THESE MOVES (PLURAL MORE THAN ONE) in a game to get the money?

Do I need to hop the deck when doing a middle deal? No, all I have to do is gather my cards and leave them at the bottom of the deck, and if they cut them do a middle deal. So why would I have to be redundant and say this over and over again just to make it clearer to you when Iíve already explained it?

Read between the lines. Why would Dai Vernon mention it and Darwin and Steve show you this move in a gambling video if it were not used in actual play? They were telling you all the time without words that it was being used (JUST BY PLACING IT ON THEIR GAMBLING PROTECTION SERIES TAPES). Those who wrote that it wasnít were actually LYING TO YOU all the time.

Now you see me, a cheater being able to do it and telling you that I used to do it in games only further confirms their video's non-verbal statements were NOT LYING TO YOU, as those MAGICIANS WHO WROTE THIS STATEMENT DID.

One more thing before I go: Tielie and Flec, who are you that I must make myself 100% clear? If I was dead what would have you believed? If you would have taken Reading Comprehension 101 and passed it with flying colors, you would have known that I made myself perfectly clear. You wouldn'tít have stated this ďI DONíT THINK that you would have become this good when you didn't use itĒ. YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS.

Your Friend,


P.S. I wrote this post not to blast you, but to teach you and others to read between the lines, and that not all magicians lie to entertain. They lie to keep secrets, to keep their status and to deceive. All this is wrong, and in the Bible times they would be stoned and killed according to Godís word right along with the witches, warlocks and sorcerers. For further information, consult your Bible Dictionaries, Commentaries and Encyclopedias.

So those of you who donít think that magicians are in the same boat with the cheats need to look again and stop directing new magicians to the cheating book ďExpert at the Card TableĒ if you donít want to be classified with us. You know why you do it? Because subconsciously they go hand in hand, and youíre right. This is why the public, after seeing you do magic tricks, won't play cards with you either, because they subconsciously believe that you can cheat too.


Samuel, since you've posted that write-up so well I'm giving to you the infinity pass so that you can improve upon it. It's obsolete to me.

Your Friend,

Message: Posted by: Adammcd (Jul 5, 2004 09:24AM)
For three days now and 11 pages I have followed this thread. I find all of it fascinating. I am a magician. I am neither a Gambler nor a Cheat. But I would like to make an observation. There are many basic principles that seem to be similar between cheats and magicians. (Please remember that my viewpoint is magic based.)

Magicians learn from the best magicians, but when they don't like something they alter to fit their style or their skill level.

Cheats learn from the best cheats and magicians. It seems they alter magicians move to be gambling moves or vice-versa. There seems to be a big grey area on whether gamblers use magicians move or magicians use gamblers moves.

Cheats/gamblers have to use patter and acting to start a con and be very careful not to say the wrong thing and set the situation so as not to tip the mark. Magicians use patter and acting to prove their magical powers and make sure the laymen are able to follow properly.

The biggest lesson I have learned, I think, though, is that Keep It Simple Stupid (aka Kiss) is the best philosophy. If I as a magician can properly side steal a card or a group of cards in the process of squaring the pack, why would I ever need the pass? I can perfect the side steal and tweak it to fit me and use "pass" time more efficiently to learn more things I need to know. I believe that's the attitude Doc takes (and I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong) about cold decking versus the different dealing positions. Using KISS is the most uncomplicated way of doing just about everything.

On the Philosophical note. Magicians are trying to convince the audience they can do things a "normal" person cannot.

Gamblers/Cheats are usually all trying to get one-up on each other. I mean why gamble if you personally don't think you have some type of edge? When you sit down to gamble you are not to try to convince anybody of anything you are trying to win money. That makes magicians more dishonest. I don't think it's a bad thing, but I can see it this way.


It seems like you want out. I saw this great movie the other day, and I want to pass it on to you. Catch Me if You Can. It's a true story of the biggest con man ever to be caught, Frank W. Abagnale Jr. Once he served his time in the pen and for the Government, he got on the lecture circuit. And not the petty kind, but he goes around and talks about his experiences with major universities and corporations. Beause it's inspirational to see that a person can do anything if they try hard enough and that they can stop and look back on it and admit that there were mistakes along the way. While your lifestyle isn't quite the same it seems to me that the two of you have some things in common and all people not just magicians could learn from you.

Whether you consider yourself a cheat, a swindler, a con-artist, a hustler or a magician we can all learn from each other, and we all do the same things. We just attack them from different viewpoints. We are all great deceivers and are compensated for it, whether it be financial gain from a big pot or a paycheck or a con or even a smile from the 7 yr. old. It is not up to me to judge.

To all those who seem offended by Doc's take on magicians, it seems to me that you are not understanding his viewpoint. Magician's moves are good, but in the cheating sense they in their magic form have angle issues or tell-tale signs. We as magicians talk often about seeming natural. No fast movements, no awkward fingers or pauses. It seems to me Cheats need to take natural to a level that most of us Magi cannot even begin to comprehend. If Magicians get caught the worst we get may be a boo. If a cheater gets caught the worst he could get is a cap.

These are the opinions of a 27 yr. old suburban white guy. They are only my opinions as to what has transpired in the previous 11 pages. I would not talk about specific cheat moves because I don't use them, so I couldn't properly comment.

If you took time to read my post, thanks. If you didn't, don't comment on what I had to say.

Thanks and, Doc, all the best


Have you been taken before, and if you can what were the circumstances?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 5, 2004 05:50PM)
Adammcd, you explained and wrote that so beautifully that I could just KISS YOU.

Regarding learning from cheats and magicians, to be honest with you all, most of my moves that I learned, I learned from magicians and adapted them to the card table.

When I met Steve, Darwin and the rest of them, I was already at this level. I can't show what they have taught me because of my vow to them that I would not, in which I will keep so what you'll be looking at in my videos are the product of what you can do and learn if you shut your mouth and listen.

So those who criticize that I cheat and talk about me are also talking about themselves, the magicians. I told you that they both go hand in hand. Note: my teachers are listed in some of my previous post.

To those who may be interested, I'm here gathering up information from you all now and using it to get better and better. As a matter of fact, my dice switch is a combination of two magician's move combined with my invention. Carl Cloutier's Sleeving and Topit combined with a guy who invented that Hold-Out and my invention, the Claw.

What you haven't seen is that I can do dice switches the way Michael Ammar and Carl Cloutier vanishes objects with a touch of a Raven-like move to finish it off.

As far as me altering things that I've seen the great magicians do to fit my style, I did and adapted them for the card table. As far as the grey area of who uses each other's moves, well I use the magician's moves.

Regarding Cold Decking. Why should I be up all night inhaling smoke, coke, marijuana, etc. when I don't use it? I want to be out that joint as soon as possible, so by Cold Decking I'm in and out in no time flat and ready to go to another game.

As far as the magicians doing things naturally, most of the time they do but then you got those magicians who say stupid stuff like "You see that my hand is completely empty" when, if you show your hands, the people can naturally see that without words. Then they say, "Look at these perfectly natural coins!" YOU'VE JUST TIPPED TO ME THAT GIMMICKED COINS DO EXIST. Why not say, "See these coins?", and go on with your trick.

This is why you'll love the magician's magician, because he has learned that. Now when he tricks you, you don't even know at what point the move was made.

Thanks again, Adammcd, for helping me out.

Your New Friend,


P.S. I wish more people would read between the lines like Adammcd, then I wouldn't have so many disliking me and thinking that I'm arrogant.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jul 5, 2004 06:27PM)
Doc wrote:

As far as the magicians doing things naturally, most of the time they do but then you got those magicians that say stupid stuff like "You see that my hand is completely empty" when, if you show your hands, the people can naturally see that without words. Then they say, "Look at these perfectly natural coins!" YOU'VE JUST TIPPED TO ME THAT GIMMICKED COINS DO EXIST. Why not say, "See these coins?", and go on with your trick?

I write:

Right on Doc! The old "don't run if you're not being chased" philosophy comes into play yet again.

Doc wrote:

P.S. I wish more people would read between the lines like Adammcd, then I wouldn't have so many disliking me and thinking that I'm arrogant.

I write:

I'd rather someone was dead honest with me than have them blow smoke at me and lie. I think a lot of us guys feel that way here. We're all here to learn and hopefully share ideas, etc., so it's best if we say what we mean. Besides reading between the lines is a hobby of mine.

Message: Posted by: porcupine (Jul 5, 2004 08:53PM)
Hey DOC,

Thanks for posting up the Infinity Pass; it's wonderful.

P.S. I wish more people would read between the lines like Adammcd, then I wouldn't have so many disliking me and thinking that I'm arrogant.

Hey, I don't care how it's written, as long as there's something to learn. I respect the writer.


Ted Wu
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jul 6, 2004 01:56AM)
DOC: I thought you would have done it, because you said a lot you wouldn't bother mastering a sleight if you weren't going to use it. But the ability to make a good shift, hop, pass or whatever, makes middle-dealing quite useless and unnecessary (I hate that word :) ) doesn't it? That's why I posted my questions.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 6, 2004 04:25AM)
Tielie, keep on asking questions even though some may not be great ones. There are many here who are scared to ask questions for one reason or another, and by you asking your questions they are getting their answers in a roundabout way.

Why is it that I have so many reading my post but only a handful asking questions? Do I make myself appear as a god so powerful that no one can approach me to ask me a question? No. So why are they not asking any?

Finally a real cheat jumps right out of a book and talk to you live, and you have no questions for him. Some has gotten their prayers answered wishing that they could've been there when Dai Vernon and the great magicians of that era met up with Walter Scott. Now that they have a similar situation, no one wishes to speak. When there is no one who will speak up and speak that which is right, these same individuals jump right up like they are an authority on cheating. They give my students wrong and misleading answers in order to get them hurt or killed. I will not have it.

I not only have talked the talk, students, but I have walked the walk. Now it's up to these magicians who claim authority to do the same to help guide you. I showed you all some of what real hustling looks like and guess what, that's not even 10% of it.

Others, including myself are the Dai Vernons and Michael Ammars of card and dice cheating, so if you need help re-read my post and look at my videos of the basics. See how your moves are really supposed to look. Read between the lines.

The End of Docholiday

Now before Docholiday walks off into the sunset after fighting with all the Ringoís of the Club called the Magic Cafť, he would like to say to all who thought he talked and showed too much. There was a method to my madness:

1. There are magicianís that are thieves, and Iím not sure who is or who's not, so I posted my videos showing some of the stuff that I could do before anyone claimed it as theirs.

2. By showing and advertising for three years to magicianís and the like while running from place to place hustling and learning, Iíve finally reached my goal and that was meeting my idol Steve Forte, who I must say to those listening ĎTHAT IT WAS WORTH IT.Ē


Your Friend and Still Student,


P. S. To those who wanted me gone your wish has been granted, but if I find that you keep lying to my students trying to get them killed with your stupid non gambling a** advice, Iíll be back.

The End.
Message: Posted by: Adammcd (Jul 6, 2004 10:32AM)
Thanks, Doc, for all your time. Some of us got it and truly appreciate what you have done.

This thread will in the future help solidify the legend that is Harlem's Docholiday, a true cowboy in the 21st Century. Cutting Trails and blazing new territories for the next generation to follow.

Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jul 6, 2004 10:40AM)
We are waiting for the movie to come up DOC. Your visit was truly refreshening. At least for me it was.
Message: Posted by: Peter Woerde (Jul 6, 2004 04:16PM)
Hey Doc,

Thanks for your posts. I posted some questions in my last post that you didn't answer. You probably missed it, because there were some interesting posts after that.

If you happen to read this, could you take a quick look and answer them before you go?

Take care,

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 6, 2004 05:04PM)
Peter, Peter, I'm supposed to be dead haunting "The Magic Cafť". Now you're trying to bring back the dead?

To answer your question with my dying breath, when I can't Cold Deck because I don't have a duplicate deck on me, I do middles and bottoms along with my seconds (Punch Work) to get the money. I hop the cut by doing my Infinity Pass, Steve's One Hand Hop or the Spin Pass.


Docholiday is in the Sanitarium dying while Wyatt (Peter Woerde) is still trying to get answers from him. Peter my feet is getting cold. Will you go now and let me die in peace?
Message: Posted by: Jacko (Jul 6, 2004 05:16PM)
Long Live the Phantom!
Message: Posted by: LeConte (Jul 6, 2004 07:17PM)
Message: Posted by: Peter Woerde (Jul 7, 2004 01:08AM)
Hey Doc,

Didn't that feel just like in the movies? One person dying and another one trying to get some last-minute information.

In the movies they normally don't get the information, so I think you just wrote history with that last post ;).

Thanks for the knowledge and inspiration.
May you rest in peace.

Message: Posted by: tensai (Jul 7, 2004 09:36AM)
Cheers for showing those videos, DOC, Your skills are amazing. You are an inspiration of how good you can get if you work at it. Thanks again.

Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jul 7, 2004 11:29AM)
Thank you, DOC.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jul 13, 2004 09:51PM)
I just finished Phantoms of the Card Table and added edge marks as described in the book.

Maybe it was how I did it, but the edge markings looked VERY obvious especially with a new deck.

Any suggestions to make the marks less noticeable or is their another technique to edge mark other than what was described in Phantom?


Magically yours,

Message: Posted by: Richard Lucas (Jul 13, 2004 10:52PM)
The plug-in data does not load properly. Any suggestions? I would sure like to view these videos.
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Jul 13, 2004 11:04PM)
Why did Doc leave? Didn't we ask enough questions? Did we ask too many stupid questions? Or did he have too much 'other stuff' to do?

I don't quite get it, but I hope that some day he will rise from the grave.
Message: Posted by: J.Manninen (Jul 14, 2004 12:42AM)
He lives a risky life. Who knows what happened? Jail? Grave? I hope not.
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Jul 14, 2004 09:01AM)
Well, he'd probably not get the opportunity to answer on the latest post if he was imprisoned or burried.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 15, 2004 05:05PM)
I'm not buried nor imprisoned. I almost got arrested while WALKING WHILE BLACK in Asheville N.C. to get something to eat at night.

News Flash

I just heard that two of my hustling partners on Memorial Day weekend in Florida got knocked out. One of my two friends were leaking while playing dice, and a known boxer knocked him right out and security beat up the other guy breaking his jaw.

I'll be partying with Allen Iverson this Thursday at a Ludicrus party in ATL. I hope that I can get some gambling on.

Second Deal Failure

I caught a hanger doing a second deal and the guy said take the cards back and I did. He said that he was going to watch me, and I continued doing seconds and robbed him anyway.

More updates will follow.

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jul 15, 2004 05:18PM)
Doc, good to hear you pop in here!

I like when you write stuff like that seconds story, because not only do you tell us about your wins and skills, but also about when mistakes or accidents might happen to you. Telling it like it is (or was).

Be careful with yourself.

Tristan O'
Message: Posted by: Richard Lucas (Jul 16, 2004 04:48PM)
Please tell me how I can view the videos I feel left out.
Message: Posted by: J.Manninen (Jul 16, 2004 05:22PM)
Get Quicktime player.
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 16, 2004 05:46PM)
I know four people with new powerful computers who have Quicktime and cannot view the videos. Doc's instructions were followed to no avail. Any suggestions?
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Jul 16, 2004 06:03PM)
Try getting the newest version of Quicktime.
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 16, 2004 07:32PM)
Samuel, ff course we tried that. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 17, 2004 06:55AM)
If you have Yahoo, just go here


Doc's Dice Switch

Stop Living In A Dream World

Regarding my dealing moves and techniques, it has been stated more than once to me in PMís that my deals, etc., donít show its best angle or that they expected my moves to have looked much better.

Question. What are you really looking for? Are you looking for all flawless moves by one individual? If you are, then youíre living in a dream world. Can you show me a magician that does all flawless moves? My goal is not to impress you as an ultimate cardsharp. My goal is to fool laymen and get the money.

Magicians have gotten tired of fooling the public and want to be so great that they want to fool the magicians as well. This may be your ultimate goal but the public doesnít care about these specific techniques, etc. That yaíll are here talking about, all they care about is if the trick was a good trick, nothing more, nothing less.

I said all that to say this, youíre taking this same wrong viewpoint and trying to apply it to card or dice cheats as well and itís wrong. This may be a good ultimate goal for us, but our public doesnít suppose to know that weíre doing anything anyway, so why should we have to try to impress anyone at all especially you?

Many should just stop, think and ask themselves ďWhat am I really looking for to see in a cheat?Ē What is it that I expect from him? Should I keep on expecting miracles from them or just treat them as an average card manipulator that has his or her own specialties? Wasnít Doc fooled into believing this same thing, and this is why he practiced to try and learn everything and now heís trying to teach us now to fall into this same trap?

None of you can give a gambling demonstration better than I, because I have real stories to tell behind my moves and this is what really captivates an audience besides the actual moves. I can demonstrate to magicians as well telling them things that relates to them while teaching and showing them at the same time. I may not be better, but I sure can make my presence spellbinding where the individuals would want me to come back just like many want me to come back here.


Didnít Allen Kennedy have his specialty, Dad Stevenís his, Walter Scott his, State Street Eddy his and so on and so on? Were they proficient at everything or just some things? They were proficient at the things that they needed in order to get the money and likewise so am I. Iím proficient at Walter Scottís Punch deal, my punch work, my dice switch and my cold deck moves. Everything else Iím even with everybody else here at the forum whoís doing their moves proficient enough to show.

For the record, the best ultimate card manipulator I know of at this moment in history is Steve Forte; heís the Michael Jordan of gambling moves and everybody else like myself are Kobeís and Vince Carterís. We all have our specialties, and dealing bottoms and middles are not mine even though I will run rings around many who would try to compare theirs to mine especially in a real game.

Critiquing Correctly

I will not tell you to stop sitting back and judging moves, but I will ask you to stop sitting back and judging what itís suppose to look like when you canít do it yourself. Correct all the mistakes that you see every bottom or middle dealer do and then perfect it to that ultimate level that youíre looking for and then judge it.

Note: Remember while judging a move that there is NO PERFECT COUNTERFEIT TO THE REAL THING. The fake may look excellent at certain angles, but it can never look like the original if carefully examined. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A FLAW.

If you think a thumb that doesnít move when doing a bottom deal while pushing off a top card is correct, you are sadly mistaken but that doesnít mean that the move canít be done that way. If you see a finger or knuckle flash while someone is doing a bottom deal it does not mean that that individual canít do a bottom deal; youíve just probably seen a better variant and now youíre judging his move according to that standard. Laymen have nothing to judge by nor do they know what to look for. Always remember that a standard to a hustler is what gets the money nothing more, nothing less.

Doing a better bottom deal or middle deal may raise eyebrows to most magicians but to a cheat all he wants to know is ďcan the move get the money, thatís all I wanna know, can the move get the money?

Us cheats donít sit around like the magicianís do and critique a move to death. Our job is to try to solve the problem and get the money, and if we do get it, that means that our performance was good enough or passable enough for that particular show (game). If the show was excellent, we may get a repeat performance (play with them again), if not, just get back on the road and find another game.

Oh and one more thing, the word professional only means that youíre getting paid for what youíre doing and the amateur is not. A bum who canít do cheating moves well but gets paid is a real professional; an expert who can cheat but canít get a game is nothing more than an amateur because heís not getting paid even though he possess great ability.

Bottom line, Iím the bum and the amateur.

Your Friend,

Message: Posted by: Richard Lucas (Jul 17, 2004 03:33PM)
Will someone PLEASE HELP me with the videos. I am unable to view them. I keep getting the following error message:

"The data that plugin requested, did not download successfully."

What can I do to correct this?

Please help me.

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jul 17, 2004 03:49PM)
Hi Richard,

I know this has been stated here, but the only advice I can offer is to download the lastest version of Quicktime, and then right click on Doc's videos and save them to your desktop or somewhere else. Then try to open them with Quicktime. I myself cannot open them from the site. I got a similar error.

Get the latest version of Quicktime, right click and save the video to your PC, then attempt to open it by right-clicking and choosing to open with Quicktime.

I hope this works for you.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 17, 2004 06:55PM)
Dear Doc,

I've been following your posts for a long time. Not only in this forum, but also in the afore-mentioned yahoo group c_N_c.

I've been involved in magic for almost 5 years now. The thing that got me started in card magic, was the movie "Sting", where some gambling moves are demonstrated by John Scarne. They looked so incredible, specially the cold deck move which happened during a straight cut and the shirt hold-out exchange of Paul Newman's.

As a result I started buying everything I could find on card magic and gambling. Steve's videos, Darwin's books and video's, Wimhurst's video, most of Marlo's stuff and Vernon's, etc...

When I first read your posts, I thought you were one of those cocky, know-it-all card experts, wannabe card cheats. Only after a carefully reading of your long posts and the praise of well known magicians, I realized that you are the real thing.

From that point on I follow and record your every post. I find in these posts the wisdom of a rare combination of an expert card manipulator and real life gambler. This exchange of information about the techniques and insides of your life as a gambler, that you give the magic community in this forum and everywhere else, is a life time opportunity for an interaction with a character that you read about but never meet in real life.

Vernon spent his life searching such characters, travelling around, waisting time and money. And now thanks to modern technology the new generation of magicians have the opportunity that their predecessors didn't have.

There are expert card manipulators out there who have build their reputation on gambling sleights and stratagems, but none of them can give your inside. That's why I find your thoughts and advices invaluable.

I missed the videos that you had published on the c_N_c forum, but I had the pleasure of seeing the ones you have currently uploaded at cyngaporemagic. It's one thing to know that this person can do the move, and another to actually witness his technique.

Many would say, seeing is believing, but they get disappointed when they don't see what they expect to see. Like, in a previous post, someone criticized your bottom deal for not being as good as your other techniques. Even though I have the same opinion, this was a magician's evaluation of a sleight, just for the sake of the technique.

In my opinion, the technique should be judged inside the context it was made to exist and from people who can perform it inside this environment. Most magicians miss this point all together. As Scott would say, they look only for the techniques. And they expect flawless execution of every technique from a real life cheat, which would fool them.

Walter Scott in the Gazzo's book said that: -"No matter how many things you can do at the card table, they're easy to see if you're looking for them". I don't take his opinion as a gospel, but says something important about technique. As you say in your post, there is no perfect counterfeit to the real thing. How true!!

Closing this post, I would like to praise your handling of the middle deal and your ingenious solution for the hop (Erdnase ever failing attempt is closing to an end (?)). From your expertise on these two techniques, I can see that you have spend a considerable amount of time perfecting these techniques to meet the requirements of the gaming table. That is, being as close to the handling of a lay person, as possible. No funny grips and takes...

I can see also, that you have probably perfected and worked on both these techniques, because there is time when certain techniques won't work under certain conditions around the table and that you should have other alternatives. I guess you would use the middle deal, if other players were looking while you were restoring the cut.

And something I noticed in your videos, for the first time ever. Broken rhythm in false dealing!!! Most magicians are unaware about this in real life gambling. Someone criticized this in a previous post as a telltale (at first glance I did the same), and he did because of the preconceived notions that most magicians have about what these movements should look in a game.

Your posts and videos, have been an eye-opener for me. A wealth of information never to be found elsewhere.

With respect,

Message: Posted by: Vasilis (Jul 18, 2004 01:45AM)
On 2004-07-17 16:33, Richard Lucas wrote:

What can I do to correct this?


You could try this,sir. E-mail somebody who has already downloaded and watched the clips to send them to you via e-mail. Maybe not all of them from the beginning, just maybe one to test if that solution works for you.

It seems that the whole problem you have is not the Quick Time viewer but something with the downloadable datas. Although I haven't watched the clips, I hope this will be some help for you.

Anyway, try it. You have nothing to lose.

Be well,

Message: Posted by: lchemist (Jul 18, 2004 02:12AM)
On 2004-07-17 16:33, Richard Lucas wrote:
Will someone PLEASE HELP me with the videos, I am unable to view them I keep getting the following error message:

"The data that plugin requested, did not download successfully."

What can I do to correct this?



Try to do this:

1 - Open Quicktime.

2 - With your Browser go to http://cyngaporemagic.com/doc/ keeping Quicktime open.

3 - Right click on the video you like to watch. Click on copy shortcut.

4 - Go to Quicktime, go to File, go to Open URL.

5 - Paste (CTRL V) on the window and click OK.

6 - When the video has been downloaded you may or may not need to press play. (The big right pointing arrow under the Quicktime screen)

I hope this will help you.

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 18, 2004 05:48AM)
Regarding false dealing at the card table.

Despite what we see from the magicians demonstrating cheating at cards and what is seen at the movies, it is my humble opinion that false dealing could well be the rarest of all moves used by the expert at the card table. This would include those who are expert false dealers

I think I can deal seconds as well as any other expert but it would be low on my list of choices of moves at the card table. The reason is that false dealing can go wrong no matter how good you are and when it does it can be clear what you have tried to do.

False shuffling is the better option as this can go wrong without exposing you as a cheat.

Deck or card switching marked cards false dealing are high risk and could result in a short career and short fingers. Good luck to them who take these risks but I advise not to take unnecessary ones. Self-esteem and ego is a luxury that the expert at the card table cannot afford. He should be content with getting the money with the least risk rather than being proud of his skill.

If I were a cheat my bottom line would be to ask if this move went wrong could I get away with it?
If the answer was yes it would be a good move if not it would be a bad move.

I am aware that you can careful yourself out of crossing the road but there are safer ways to get the money at the card table than those which are most talked about here.
These are less skilful, more boring and give an edge rather than a certainty and as I personally do not like to be run over, I would rather use the crossing than dash across the road.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 18, 2004 06:57AM)
Yiannis that was an excellent post, thanks a lot for writing it. I would write more but I'm on the road at the moment and I'm typing from my Treo Cell Phone.

Thanks for following this thread.

Your New Friend


Tommy thanks for writing that post. I agree and I disagree with you on somethings but over all, I definately agree with you with using the basics and gaining an edge. Most hustlers that I know use your advice mainly because they don't possess dealing skills but they still win the money most of the time so this advice is valuable.

Now regarding using a second deal at minimum would not be to my advantage while playing Tonk, Black Jack or Rummy.

Readers of this post take both of our information and use it accordingly to your advantage and to your situation. Every hustler uses what they feel best works for them therefore, likewise do the same for yourself.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 18, 2004 08:40AM)
Thanks Doc

I do not dispute your fine advice or what you do.
I just think that you are an exception to most experts at the table in the methods you use.

On another point. Second Dealing Cards.

I have just got some cards "Copag 100% plastics" casino cards and they are the best cards I have seen for second dealing. Rough back but smooth face, they slide out a treat. The rough back gives a nice grip for the take. No border on the backs. As good a quality as Kems and half the price. They are wider than standard but I have found them to fit the hand for the master grip very well.
They are large index which is also good for the Erdnase riffle peek.
Click export plastic poker size.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 18, 2004 12:03PM)
It seems that, advanced and difficult techniques to master like false dealing are risk high and less demanding techniques like false shuffling are risk low. There is a price to pay though for every choise that you make. As Doc says, you can get the money "sometimes" when you use less than advanced techniques. I believe that if you want to win big money, you have to have the will to take the risk to use something potentially dangerous. That's why, not everybody is made for this kind of play. You don't risk, you don't gain. You can win something with safe playing, but not nearly the same.

In my opinion, an accomplished card mechanic will use his arsenal wiselly, according to the gaming environment and conditions. For example, if the deck becomes too sticky during play to false deal smoothly and there is a big pot to win if you deal a round of seconds, you have to make a decision. Either risk caughting a hanger, the same that happened to Doc the other day, or play it safe and lose the money (and live longer, incase you choose to false deal and fail).

As Vernon would say, use your brain :)
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 19, 2004 05:12PM)
Who is "State Street Eddy"?

How did you do at the celebrity party?

Do you sell your punch or can you tell me how to make one? I read how to make one in the Scott book, but maybe you could be more specific as to what works best.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 19, 2004 09:33PM)
Slakk regarding the celebrity party, I did nothing but party. Everything regarding gambling is not just gambling, it's getting people to like you and to invite you to places where they are and then in the interim when gambling is presented, that's when the show begins.

State Street Eddy was a guy that dealt from the light/Shiner. Read and buy more books.

Do I sell my punch? No. Do you think that I want ya'll b***holes messing up an excellent move or trying to sell it to try to gain status? Didn't you read my review of the book? I said I didn't want it out so what is it that you don't understand?

I told you that my review statement went much deeper then you could have imagined this is why you must read between the lines and then go back and read between the lines again when your knowledge of the hustling game has improved.

The Punch Answer Continued -

The Phantoms of the Card Table book has been out before I was born and if you haven't tried to learn from that book as of yet, then you are not definately interested in learning how to use it nor make it. Note: This observation was proven to me when no one at the forum asked me questions when I posted the post regarding it and a dead man don't tell tales.

Your Friend


Was Walter Scott A Fraud?

Wow I just read that my teacher was a fraud! Is this some type of trick statement to get me back talking at this forum or what? If it is, itís a great ploy that worked. My friend whoís one of the best card manipulators I know just called my punch deal teacher, Walter Scott a fraud. What can I say of this reasoning? How am I to speak? Students what are you to believe regarding this well-known manipulatorís statement? Stop what youíre doing and ask your self some questions before going on and then evaluate your deductions and see what conclusions you come up with before you read my questions?

1. The first question you should be asking yourself is even though George is a well-known card manipulator of gambling moves; does he really gamble for a living to be able to make such a statement?
2. Did he ever meet Walter Scott and spoke to him personally to know if he was a fraud?
3. Why would Gazzo go to such an extreme to meet a man like Walter Scott only to write a book telling his readers a lie?
4. Is there really a conspiracy regarding gambling moves that some people donít want you to know?
5. Why would Walter Scott a 98 year old hustler who quit gambling tell Gazzo to just tell the truth and donít lie about me?
6. Why would Doc lie about Walter Scottís book and then be recommended by well-known gambling magicians as having the smallest known punch mark to date if he was a liar?
7. Why did Doc write in a previous post ďWhy Am I BrokeĒ and tell us Walter Scott explained it best why he was broke?Ē
8. Why did Doc write a review testifying to the credibility of this book and not wanting people to buy it and then also state before there ever was a thread that ďthat everything that Walter says about cheating and the life we live in this book is trueÖand that this book is so informative that he donít want you to buy itÖ while also stating that ďif anyone donít think that this (book) is true, you donít know what real gambling is and you donít know what youíre talking about?
9. Is what Doc told us about magicians lying to us trying to keep a status all in well true?
10. Am I a butt-head for reading Docís post and believing him and now without words even though it wasnít stated that he is considered a liar and a fraud right along with Walter Scott or did the writer really make an honest mistake like he said?

I will not answer these questions for you to subliminally brainwash you into thinking what I want you to think so now is an excellent time to read between the lines of my post and come up with your own conclusion to who is right and to whom is wrong.

What Happened Yesterday (Yester-year) Happened Today (In Our Time)

ďÖhe only had to fool a handful of half-smart old duffers in New York. He didnít pull the wool over Millerís eyesÖ.Ē Iíve handled a deck of Scottís cards and the work is nothing special.

Doc what are you talking about? Did you show a handful of major magicians your moves like Walter Scott did in his day and being that you read what happened to Scott is why you posted your videos to avoid them being stolen etc.? Yes and I wrote about this in a previous post. Note: Didnít I tell you that you have to re-read post sometimes to get a better understanding? So do it.

Readers, I showed my moves to more than a handful of half-smart old and young duffers in my quest to meet Steve Forte and my punch work just like Scottís is nothing special either to a person who knows what to look for even though my work maybe finer. You have to realize one thing and I hope Iím not giving away my secret to a smaller punch, the technology of today is much better than it was in Walterís time and this is the ONLY REASON WHY MY WORK MAY LOOK A LITTLE BIT BETTER THAN HIS. IN HIS TIME, HIS WORK WAS THE FINEST MADE UNTIL THE 1990íS.

A Note To My Christian Magicians In The Lord

What youíve just read here is almost like the same problem that God is having with saving His sinners from destruction, they are being misled by a deceiver. The deceiver only has to make one statement like Satan did ďyou will NOT surely die and lead many astray.Ē

Read my post (THE WARNING SIGNS!) and the downfalls of my lifestyle and learn from it and go in another direction. God would tell you that, ďmy people are destroyed for lack of knowledgeĒ this means in street terms read between the line butt-heads you have to study to show yourself approved to make it as a great cardsharp, a great magician or to make it to heaven. God did not write 1 thread with 12 pages like I did explaining how he doesnít want you to die in your sins, He had 66 books written to guide and to instruct you in so use it or else suffer the consequences like a cheat who got caught holding out a card with gangsters.

Even though Iím here just planting seeds because something has to grow sooner or later, this is why God had different authors from different backgrounds to write his bible, He wanted different points of view expressing the same truth in order to get you to read about Him. This is why I CANíT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU NO MATTER HOW CLOSE OF A FRIEND THEY MAY BE TO ME KNOWINGLY OR UNKNOWINGLY BECAUSE WHEN THIS WORLD COMES TO THE END I WILL HAVE TO STAND ALONE FOR MY ACTIONS AS A STEWARD BEFORE GOD AND I WANT TO MAKE IT IN.

So on that note I will repeat myself, Iím back from the dead because whoever tries to lead my students to their death before they give their heart to God either knowingly or unknowingly have to answer to Docholiday until my students know how to discern right gambling moves and wisdom from the wrong.

Students one more thing before I go, combine the WISDOM AND TEACHINGS of ďThe Expert at the Card TableĒ with Walter Scottís ďThe Phantoms of the Card TableĒ if youíre going to choose this degradation lifestyle. Youíll live much longer using his advice than you would by not using it because of wrong evaluations and thinking that Walter was a fraud and not to be believed.

Your Friend and Still Teacher



Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 20, 2004 12:17AM)
Did Gazzo cheat at cards? Who is more qualified, Gazzo or Devol?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 20, 2004 02:28AM)
Slakk I thought that I just gave you a homework assignment? I see now that you're trying to cheat off of someone else's notes. Do you own homework or consider your butt kicked out of this class.

The two individuals you are now speaking of have wrote or is writing about two of the same individuals who can do exactly the same thing and if anyone would dare step up say that George is a liar I would defend him with the same sterness as I now defend Gazzo.

Now regarding your statement as to have Gazzo ever cheated? I don't know but I sure can read well and in between the lines to see that he was a street magician duh! a guy like you interested in gambling moves etc who probably wouldn't bust a grape in real action if he fell on it.

You seem to want me to take sides regarding George and Gazzo which is wrong. I know George and respect his viewpoint on a lot of things and I respect Gazzo's views without ever meeting him enough to cross you in a game..

Please don't get my Christian side mixed up with my street side especially when you do shady s*** like you seem to be trying now trying to get me to talk one against the other, this in when my street side comes out.

Back To Normal Mode

In my honest opinion George, Gazzo, Igor, Paul and so on are college all-stars waiting to be drafted into the NBA (real life hustling) but because of certain morals that each have chooses not to.

Does it really matter if either cheated in a game or not? I will stand in their place as a friend and say that
I cheat and I value both of their opinions as gold tried in a fire and because I don't agree with everything that they say doesn't make me right and neither does it make them all wrong. This is why you should study for yourself.

My statement still stands as is as to Walter Scott's validity of being a real cheat.

The Doctor
Message: Posted by: Ethan500 (Jul 20, 2004 05:13AM)

I don't think your question on either Devol or Gazzo cheat is irrelevant. As long as you have the required skill, confidence, guts and the right greedy sucker sitting at the table, one can pull it off without anyone knowing.

I do think both of them have the skill, even though neither of them choose to make their living by being a card hustler. Who is better? I guess we will never know unless they are prepared to sit down and play a few games together. Or should I say, the unknown guy playing cards every day every chance he has possibly is the best of the three.

That's just my two-bit opinion.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 20, 2004 05:55AM)
Slakk, regarding your question about Gazzo cheating in a real game. It should be noted about both magicians that can do gambling moves, that each has his specialty and you shouldn't be trying to compare apples to oranges.

Gazzo's knowledge about cheating is based on his meetings and taped conversations with Walter just like yaíll knowledge are based on you meeting and talking to me here. This in no way makes you knowledgeable or a professional at cheating and neither did it make Gazzo.

How would you like it if a nut case now steps up and ask did you ever cheat in a real game in order to prove you wrong? Go and get shot-up and come back to this forum and explain to non-listening people that you want to help and see how you feel when they start talking stupid stuff.

If Gazzo and George both cheated in a card game and Gazzo got the money by punch dealing and George got it by middle dealing, to a hustler both would be equal because both got the money and that's bottom line.

Slakk, you're still using a magicianís analogy of who is better and applying it to the realm of gambling. This is wrong. You speak knowledgeable on some things, but your knowledge is considered as a sophomore to me.

Who Is More Knowledgeable?

In my opinion neither. They both know and have met Steve and probably seen him work. Regarding gambling devices, they both have probably seen Steve's gambling museum, so it is my conclusion that both are equally knowledgeable in their own right without being clones.

Comparing My Knowledge to George

It is my viewpoint that George is more knowledgeable than I because of what he knows and what I want to know. I believe that I have more experience at the card table, but that doesn't mean that I'm right even though I may think it. I might be wrong for saying this, but he might say that have more knowledge than he.

Why? Because each of us possesses abilities that we admire in the other that we wish we were able to do. If I had George's knowledge of the magic area and know the people that he knows, I would be a much better cheat and probably in a much better position.

Bottom line: who is better? The guy who can keep shooting a jump shot or the guy who can keep laying it up if need be? I say neither. Both has accomplished making a point in which was the ultimate goal of each individual, but both had their own style or way of doing it.

Slakk, learn what you need to learn in order to do what you want to do and stop trying to instigate a fight between people.

Your Friend,

Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (Jul 20, 2004 07:33AM)
On 2004-07-20 01:17, slakk wrote:
Did Gazzo cheat at cards? Who is more qualified, Gazzo or Devol?

Are you talking about Andrew George Devol, or George George Devol? ;) Or do you have no idea what I'm talking about?
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 20, 2004 07:49AM)
I thought they meant George Andrew Devol.

I know who Andrew Devol is, but who is this George fella? :)
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 20, 2004 08:07AM)
1. I was asking Devol or Gazzo (not you, Doc) the question who was more qualified to judge whether or not Walter Scott was a fraud or an advantage player. This is not instigating, merely discussing.

2. I wanted to know if Gazzo ever advantage played.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Jul 20, 2004 08:11AM)
Even though my mischievous comment stirred Doc up, this is not addressed to him, but to the peanut gallery in general.

Scott probably dealt a great punch in his heyday. I'm just talking about what is presented in that book. My personal view aligns with Charlie Miller's, and that was that Scott probably wasn't heavily involved in cheating in games, but in conning guys.

That's why he was so successful in New York - he just ran the same scam on the old magicians that he would run on some rich sucker.

Edge marks with a punch? Two things that don't make sense when slapped together in a game but are tailor made for a demo with a blindfold. Just think about it. The point of a punch is that you don't need to look at your hands. You do the math.


I certainly don't feel the need to justify my credentials to anyone. I will say, though, that the stones required to move in a game are highly overrated and held in some bizarre golden light of human endeavour (at least on magic boards). I've done enough stuff in my life that took guts to know that I can stare any man in the eye.

Regarding experience, who really knows what anyone else has done unless they were there?
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 20, 2004 08:25AM)
From what I have heard and read about both men, Gazzo met Scott and has an interest in crooked gambling. Mainly F/deals ala Scott.

And he is a street magician.

But from what I know and have seen, George Devol knows more about crooked gambling as a whole. And he's got the chops!

And I don't mean pork chops (but he might have those as well. :)
Message: Posted by: ASW (Jul 20, 2004 08:36AM)
I'm sure Gazzo would kick my ass any day of the week.

Don't misunderstand me. I enjoyed this book. The book itself (David Britland) hints at the fact that the mystery of who or what Scott really was is left up to each of us to decide.

I know two older guys who were involved in hustling that met Scott and they say he was terrific. (Though one said his punch work was better than Scott's, but he would, wouldn't he?)
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 20, 2004 08:45AM)
On 2004-07-20 09:36, George Devol wrote:
I'm sure Gazzo would kick my ass any day of the week.

I agree, but I don't think fighting solves anything. :)

IMO, having the guts to cheat at cards is not that big a thing. It's like anything. You get nervous at first. If you move and you get away with it the more confident you get.

I have used a trick deal in a friendly game. Got away with it a couple of times. My confidence at cheating grew quickly.

It's when you get caught that's the problem. If you think your going to get caught, your putting pressure on yourself. Just like magic.

And about guts, George has done stand-up comedy.

If he hasn't got guts there's not much hope for the rest of us. :)

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 20, 2004 08:59AM)
Hey, George, I have to disagree with you again. I've seen your Middle Deal and you showed me how to do it so I do have first-hand knowledge in what I'm saying. Readers, it's the best that I've seen to date.

Andrew, I will not let you downplay your ability for whatever reason you're doing it. I know from conversation, etc., that you'll stare death straight in the eyes, so keep up the good work.

Now as far as Gazzo beating the pants off of you, I don't think so, but I do believe that both of you can rightfully hold your own if need be in a game if you have to.

Your Friend,

Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 20, 2004 09:15AM)
So what is more important, stones or physical skills?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 20, 2004 04:30PM)
Stones because if you're scared, get a dog.

Well, you said do the math and the moment I read it I did. It makes a whole lot of sense in my opinion to mark a deck two ways, and to be honest with you it makes even more sense to mark the deck three ways.

Walter Scottís Scenario

Iím assuming that Walter played Draw Poker or five Card Stud, because he only hit the Aces and the Kings. In poker, you canít keep winning with the same hands all the time, because this will arouse suspicion. On another note this maybe the reason why Walter said a personís mouth can kill you, even though they donít see you cheating them because it has happened to me.

Back to what I was saying, you canít keep winning with the same hands all the time, so maybe he used the edge mark for a suit in spades. Now when he deals, he can win with a flush instead of Kings and Aces which will make it less noticeable that he keeps winning with the same hands all the time.

Thatís a perfect solution looking at it from a hustlerís point of view; now when the red deck comes out he punches the Queens and Jacks and edge mark the deck playing hearts as his flush hand.

My Scenario

Have you ever played cards with a guy and after he canít win he wants to switch the game to another one? Well, it happens to me often enough that I definitely see why a cheat would mark the deck in more than one-way.

I prefer to play Tonk or Knock Rummy in which you have to hit the low cards in order to win. Now all of a sudden the sucker wants to play Black Jack in which now I have to hit the high cards in order to win. Can I play the punch from more than two positions?

Youíll never know, but edge work would definitely solve this problem immediately without quitting the guy because of your inability to maneuver from one mark to another with the same deck of cards.

Look in an old K.C. Card Co. catalog, and youíll see where decks were made up using strippers and big diamonds etc. Isnít these two marks or two ways to beat a sucker especially in Gin or Tonk with one deck? This technique has nothing to do with conning at all but strategic playing.

I did the math my friend now give me the A that I deserve.

Note: Do yaíll see why yaíll canít see through these questions? You havenít played cards or played cards long enough to run into all of the dilemmas like I have. This is why I by just having a conversation with you, can *** near know your level of skill and your capability at the card table.

Yaíll wanna-be hustlers, and magicians canít even decipher these elementary questions. This is why I stand by my validity statement regarding The Phantoms of the Card Table. As soon as a prominent figure steps up whom yaíll admire and makes a statement, you accept it as gold without asking questions because you feel that he knows more than you like heís a god of gambling and this is why you canít learn.

This is another way of how yaíll are being deceived. Heís not deceiving you; you just donít read. Youíre looking at the outer without looking on the inside. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Read and comprehend just like the Bible states in Isa. 28:10 ďPrecept (must be) upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line, here at little, (and) there a little and Iíll stop haunting the Magic Cafť.

I say stop keeping your mouth shut and talk to George, Jason or anyone in position like you talk to God in prayer and ask questions. Youíll be surprised when you start getting your prayers answered.

Your Teacher and Still Friend


P.S. When I say read and ask yourself questions. Iím telling you to use your own brain and solve these problems like I did. I canít keep throwing you hints. I learned most of these answers from experience and by losing my money because this information was not in any of these gambling books. This College is called the School of Hard Knocks and this is why cheating isnít easy.

Note: This is another reason why I call these guys college All-Stars, because when you get into the NBA that's when youíre really playing in the big leagues. I still will bet my money on them, though.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Jul 20, 2004 11:18PM)
I don't discount anything.

But the whole story of Scott in that book suggests that marking a deck two ways so he could wear a blindfold for a demo was his thing. I can't think of many games where you'd be asked to wear a blindfold... I think this is why Miller drew the same conclusion. Scott was a wiz at demoing moves.

Regarding K.C and O.C. and all the other catalogs. They sold a lot of great stuff, but their biggest market by far was selling junk to suckers in home games. Trip dice and tappers and stuff like that. They still do.

But as I said, I don't discount anything. I'm sure people have done stuff in games with decks gaffed up the wazoo.

Okay, I'm out of here. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything - just clarifying my opinion, as it seems to have stirred folks up. As Doc says, make up your own mind. I have.

Message: Posted by: J3 (Jul 20, 2004 11:33PM)
So since marlos cigar bottoms werent the best, Im guessing you though his riffle shuffle work in his primetime video were pretty bad too?
Message: Posted by: ASW (Jul 20, 2004 11:40PM)
Message: Posted by: lchemist (Jul 21, 2004 01:25AM)

Have you seen the video Cheating at Blackjack: THE REAL WORK by Dustin D. Marks?

What do you think?

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 21, 2004 08:39AM)
I personaly would not like to use any kind of marked cards in fast company. You are likely to get fast company in any game where there is high stakes.
Any gambler who has had any experience with marked cards, will look for marks, and will look for them in the same way that you spot the gamblers card marking system from expert card technique. They will look in this way because it shows up a lot of crude card marking methods. The punch can be seen and if it is, "forget about it". I do not say these things are not used because in fact they are but as I have said I would not use them. For simular reasons I woud not use an hold out or any other cheating device. Erdnase I think would agree with me.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jul 21, 2004 08:52AM)
What would you use then?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 21, 2004 09:00AM)
Just a deck of cards and skill.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 21, 2004 09:02AM)
On 2004-07-21 02:25, lchemist wrote:

Have you seen the video Cheating at Blackjack: THE REAL WORK by Dustin D. Marks?

What do you think?

This has been mentioned in earlier posts.

Also, check out the Darwin ortiz interview as he talks about it there.

Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 21, 2004 12:25PM)
Dear Doc,

that was an excellent essay on the marked deck and its use in real life gaming environment. As I said before, your posts are eye openners, very educational and the best thought stimulants on the gambling scene.

Reading your posts and AW's, you can clearly see two different worlds. The expert card manipulator on the gaming table (Doc) and the expert card manipulator on the magic table (AW). Both worlds share the same tools, as far as gambling sleights are concerned, and yet their viewpoints are vastly different.

A magician is trying to explain with his logic, that using two ways to mark the same deck, is an overkill and useless. He cannot see where such technique can find an application where it might be usefull, other than tricking other cardmen into thinking that he's an expert card cheater. Even great card men, like Charlie Miller, according to AW's sayings, reached the conclussion that Walter Scott must have been a fraud.

Now, an opinion of such cardman will surelly bias the minds of inexperienced card workers and people who cannot think objectively and judge with a broader perception. I believe AW has fallen into this mind trap.

Doc on the other hand, without degrading the abilities of either AW or Charlie Miller on the field, offers another perspective of the Scott's work. Something that is drawn from his own gaming experience at the card table. And what a beautifull tip on the use of marked decks that is!!!!! I've never ever read or heard an advice like his before.

Anyway, different worlds, different perspectives. The unbiased reader, one with his mind free from preconceived notions and with a creative intelligence and critical thinking, will make up his own mind. As Doc says, should read between the lines and make the most out of this superb thread on card cheating. For one I do, and I have learned and continue to learn a great deal, far greater than most gambling books offer in the market.
Message: Posted by: lchemist (Jul 21, 2004 01:59PM)
On 2004-07-21 10:02, kukram wrote:

This has been mentioned in earlier posts.

Also, check out the Darwin ortiz interview as he talks about it there.


Thank you Kukram, but I was looking for DOCīs opinion.

Message: Posted by: ASW (Jul 21, 2004 02:39PM)

A magician is trying to explain with his logic, that using two ways to mark the same deck, is an overkill and useless. He cannot see where such technique can find an application where it might be usefull, other than tricking other cardmen into thinking that he's an expert card cheater. Even great card men, like Charlie Miller, according to AW's sayings, reached the conclussion that Walter Scott must have been a fraud.

No, I was talking from a gaming perspective.

It's basic analysis.

The idea of the peg is to hide the fact that the cards are marked from other gamblers. Do we all agree on that? (If not, good grief.)

Therefore: to use a visual system (in addition to a peg) defeats the advantage of a peg.

The fact is, from a demo perspective, Scott's strategy was brilliant. No one in New York suspected edge marks because he TOLD them he was dealing a peg. They spent all night getting misty-eyed over his punch work - they couldn't see the wood for the trees.

From the perspective of a gambler, you could put more work into the cards, but you better be playing in some really soft spots. Hey, why not daub them, crimp them, shave them, peg them, wave them AND edgemark them? Then you'll be a legend on every magic board until the end of time.

What I am saying is; if you think it's brilliant to edgemark a pegged deck, then [b]you're[/b] thinking like a magician.

I'm not saying that stuff like this doesn't happen in games. People get away with all kinds of garbage. But it smells like something a rough hustler would do (most rough hustlers are magicians gone bad, so it would make sense).

I'll reiterate: I don't care if you agree with me or not, but don't tell me that I "have fallen into a trap" through "lack of experience". With the greatest respect, you don't know me from Adam.

If we all kissed ass, there'd only be one opinion wouldn't there? Try using your loafs for a change instead of getting misty eyed over this stuff. It's not rocket science.

By the way - Charlie Miller actually did hustle cards. I've heard that from a number of guys who aren't magicians, and a few who are.

Hope this helps,

George (or maybe Tom, depending on your opinion).
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 21, 2004 04:17PM)

regarding marked decks you should read Darwin Ortiz's Gambling scams if you hadn't allready. The common markings, such as the ones explained in ECT, can be read from allmost anyone with an eye for them, these days. But even the fastest company, cannot be guarded against the latest tech in card marking. I believe the current trend is the so called "juice" decks.

Darwin in his book gives an overview of the technique and Jon Racherbaumer in Card Finesse describes a method for making juice decks. Darwin states that, even after he revealled where the markings were, the other person could not see it! Only a very trained eye, familiar with the particular juice marking can make the markings out.

So, I personally take Erdnase advice. "The player who believes he cannot be deceived is in great danger. The knowledge that no one is safe is his best protection."

Punch work, edge work, etc, they all can be felt, seen, etc respectively if you are looking for them. But that, does not make marking absolute in the card table.


I don't know you personally and I don't challenge your dexterity with cards. Many people respect your physical skills and I assume that you are as good as they say you are.

From your writtings though, I get the impression that your critical thinking is lacking. Your "basic analysis" it's YOUR basic analysis. Not mine, not Doc's, not everyone's else. You are trying too hard to prove your point, that you get a bit offensive and off the track. We are exchanging information and sharing our opinions, not trying to impose anything to anyone.

So, don't get offended if your analysis about the marking scheme is not respected from a real life cheat like Doc and don't offend others for sharing their viewpoint in this thread.

Also, if you read the Gazzo's book more carefully about the Walter's demonstration, it says that Walter used the edge work for an estimation about the positions of the pegged cards in the deck, prior to the blindfold. And he was dealing from the peg, not the edge work.

I agree with you, that people use any kind of means to cheat at cards. Some very crude and obvious and some very sophisticated that require dexterity. At the end, what counts is what works for you to get the money.

Hope this helps too,

Yiannis (opinion independent)
Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Jul 21, 2004 05:04PM)
On 2004-07-20 09:25, kukram wrote:

But from what I know and have seen, George Devol knows more about crooked gambling as a whole. And he's got the chops!

And I don't mean pork chops (but he might have those as well. :)

I know he has a George Foreman grill . . .
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 21, 2004 05:16PM)
He's so proud of it,He's placed his name on it!
Message: Posted by: steveupisleeve (Jul 21, 2004 05:48PM)
It's a pleasure for me to validate the claims of D.O.C. who, in my opinion, is not greatly endowed with talent, but also greatly misunderstood. Don't let his street style fool you. He is incredibly intelligent and more than well versed in the knowledge of his craft, albeit, an awkward way to fend for oneself in this world, being both controversial and moralistically questionable.

Risen from the heap of would-be survivors, D.O.C. is a product of an environment of tenacity, where you 'do or be done with', and in both necessity and desperation did he escape the trappings of a mundane existence.

He is on one hand 'cutting edge caustic' and on the other, socially accepting. He runs deep; shoots from the hip; is big mouthed and big hearted. He is not only admired by me, but loved by so many others as well. He is, in my opinion, the Muhammad Ali of Cards, and I appreciate HIS appreciation of people, his artistry, and of our Lord. Just my opinion.

-Steve Brewer

Correction: should have read, "who is not only greatly endowed with talent".

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 21, 2004 06:54PM)
Steve, thanks for dropping by and giving me a shout out. I very much appreciate it.

Your Friend,

Message: Posted by: Samuel (Jul 21, 2004 07:02PM)
Doc, as it seems that you are now back, I wish to ask you the following question:

When you started the series of videos of you doing the moves on cyngaporemagic, you stated something like "The reason that I don't show cold decking -yet- is that I want to go one step at the time, not showing the best things first". This implied that you were one day to give us a demonstration of your cold decking.

When, if any time, will this be?
Message: Posted by: J3 (Jul 21, 2004 08:29PM)
Actually he already demonstrated his cold decking moves at that yahoo group mentioned a few pages back(c_N_c), Id post the link here but it might get deleted(again). But email me and Ill send you the link.

Ill tell you this though, they were executed very well :)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 21, 2004 09:52PM)
J3 Please post a link because I'm unable to do it at the moment because I'm on the road.

Samuel I'm not back, I'm still dead, I'm just haunting the Cafť now.


Hey I didn't know they got deleted?
Let the world see the real Docholiday at work... I might as well go out in a blaze of glory.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Jul 21, 2004 11:24PM)
You are trying too hard to prove your point, that you get a bit offensive and off the track. We are exchanging information and sharing our opinions, not trying to impose anything to anyone.


My point was to explain what I said in one post (in another thread), not to dissuade you of your views. The strength of my response was due to the tone of your response. I haven't gotten off track, either - please stick to the facts.

As I have said repeatedly, I don't care if your views align with mine - if you don't think that Scott was looking down his nose at those edgemarks while blindfolded well, that's your opinion.

And, as you note, the point here is to express opinions. If you read Doc's posts (I mean [i]analytically[/i]*) you'll note that he actively seeks out new and diverging views. He embraces differing opinions.

Doc is a friend of mine - I have spent time in his company and I can attest to his skills. But he's not the problem here. The problem is a bunch of magicians who only want one opinion. That's clear now, so I'll stay away from your little fan club.

Seriously hope this has helped you...


*A joke. I'm sure there's nothing seriously wrong with your critical faculties.
Message: Posted by: J3 (Jul 22, 2004 12:29AM)
K, here it is:


theres a table of contents for phantoms on the main site, as well as for other books.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 22, 2004 01:03AM)
Because of my inability to post because of using my Treo cell phone Iím writing now; please forgive my delay.

Andrew you better not go anywhere I need you.


Where did you come from and thanks for writing that post? Your insight and evaluations is superb. This is the kind of reading, reasoning, evaluating and feedback that Iím trying to inspire and looking for in these other magicians or wanna-be gamblers.

Iím not here to debate with guys such as Andrew or Jason, Iím here to get you to think and to stop accepting what someone says as all there is to it like thereís no other way, be an inventor. Why do you think that these guys have excelled? Because they did what Iím telling you to do on their own. As a matter of fact by using this same reasoning is why I believe that Andrew has developed his perfect middle deal; he used his mind and what worked for him and by evaluating everything in trying to do it, he came up with his own.

Note: To be honest with yaíll after seeing Andrew do his middle deal, I believe in my heart and not that Iím right for saying this, that Allen Kennedy showed Dai Vernon a sucker variation of doing it and this is why people such as Glenn, Allan Ackerman, Darwin and many others including myself who has practiced this move until we canít practice it no more canít make that middle deal look any better than it is by using Daiís handling.

If Iím right in my evaluation (just thinking out loud), itís not Daiís fault for what happened to him, this is how us cheats do things to keep a sucker asleep; we show them bull**** while keeping the best move to ourselves. Vernon could have only showed us what Allen showed him and this is what I feel he honestly did.

If Iím wrong in my evaluation so what, itís a reasonable one to come up with after seeing all the great card manipulators do the exact same middle deal and after learning it we all have the exact same problem; a wide open side. This is why I changed my handling but it seems as though Andrew in his perseverance to become a great card manipulator has solved the problem of this variant and thank you for your hard work Andrew because most of the world couldnít figure this out for s***.

Model Student

Students, Yiannis at the moment is the model student I want yaíll to follow as far as evaluations are concerned. I donít know how his ability to do moves are but his reading comprehension and his ability to come to reasonable conclusions without starting an argument or debate between two individuals is remarkable. I would be proud to have him as a student in my class if I was a teacher or am I? I donít see him as a butt kisser but a great and upcoming evaluator especially of reading and reading between the lines.

Your Friend and Wanna-be Teacher


P.S. To Those Whom This May Concern, upon reading Devolís rebuttal comment can you now see how the expert in him just gushed out in what he just wrote in his short post about marking systems; you saw mine in the punch deal post. I didnít want to mention that many marking systems because I was holding back but Andrew went off and wrote what I wanted to write and to be honest Andrew Iím proud of you for doing that. I told yaíll he was down playing is skillz and ability. When I spoke of him being a great card manipulator of gambling moves I meant it.

Yaíll really donít know what youíre dealing with when reaching the top, this is why when you talk about one of us, youíre actually talking about all of us because we learn from each other, respect each otherís opinion and we keep each otherís secret a secret. This is also another reason why you always see me on defense against yaíll talking about any of my teachers because all great teachers has their specialties as well as their faults, especially me.

I stated in an earlier post why I wish I knew what Andrew knew overall because of the things and people he knows; now you see why I said what I said. One more thing, you see why I say that these college All-Stars are just waiting to be drafted into the NBA, you canít get any closer than they are without actually playing the game. One more thing you should note, If Andrew and I are students of Darwin imagine what Darwin and the rest of them know. Even though weíre in the NBA that doesnít mean that we are the All-Stars of the NBA, weíre just the other players that are sitting on the bench.

Bottom line, Iím just a high school coach trying to help yaíll out and even though I may holler and scream at yaíll students sometimes, that doesnít mean that I donít love you and want you to be a part of my team, I just have to teach each student differently according to their weaknessí and strengths and teach the whole by using you as an example.

My reward will be me being proud of you especially when you say, ďDocholiday taught me to shoot (cheat)Ē ďnow Ringo (cheats of less ability) say whenĒ while shooting their head straight off their body.Ē While Wyattís are looking on, you kneel down over the dead body (the other cheat) and say to the magician wanna-beís, ďI guess the pressure (my cheating moves) was too much more than he could bear.Ē

Andrew and Yiannis Iím proud of you both and keep up the good work.

The Doctor


Iíve seen the video and I have it on my laptop as I speak. To be honest with you, Iíve would have been robbed by these guys. I said it before and Iíll say it again because we cheat donít mean that we know all things about all cheating, we donít. I would have written sooner but somehow my sentences on my Treo kept being deleted when writing you of which I donít know why and Iím sorry.

Iím only aware now of what couldíve happened to me if I would have ventured off of my turf but like I said in my previous post, I donít play in a casino environment especially if I canít deal or cheat. Note: This is where Hand-Mucking becomes the prime move in order to win the money. Cold decking, second dealing, bottom nor middle dealing canít help you if thereís a stationary dealer dealing a black jack game, therefore each gambling move should be rated and treated accordingly as to which is the best move to get the money. A gun may be good to have when breaking out of jail but I prefer the keys so that I can lock the doors behind me. Having the keys will hold off more people from catching me than a gun at this point.

Oh one more thing Luis, Igor has some excellent gambling videos on black jack moves if you care to go to his site and see it. You may have to pay to enter but I believe that itís worth it and heís a very knowledgeable and nice guy.

Note: Because Igor and I may differ on somethingís forum one thing has nothing to do with the other. Igor did not in any way try to slander Darwin, it was those speaking at the forum and I just spoke up in Darwinís place pointing the same errors in Igorís handling.

My departure from there does not negate the facts about his ability as a card manipulator nor his niceness as a person. He has a business that he has to run and I agreed with his decision.

Igor thanks again for getting me in Psychology Today.

Still Your Friend



Itís only my opinion and weíre just talking out loud here but I donít think that Erdnase would agree with you do to the fact that he know about all the other gadgets himself. If Erdnase couldnít do a deceptive hop, this tells me without words that he had to have a partner cutting the deck for him or that he had to use marked cards or the light; I doubt if he could do the middle deal.

Moving Pictures

Iím assuming that youíre talking about the riffle test when you say that you can look through a deck and check out the marks on the cards but youíve failed to tell this audience that you canít see the punch or at least my punch, good shade work or the juice with this riffle test. I showed my punch work to Steve, magicians and card cheats and 9 out of the 10 times they couldnít see my punch work in the front of the card nor feel it on the back and guess what? I punch right dead in the middle of the white area where my mark can mostly be seen.

I wrote in a previous post that my punch work was so small that it goes right into the front crevices of a Bicycle Playing Card and then while playing with the cards, sometimes it almost totally disappears so by looking at my punch work using your riffle test front or back itís almost undetectable.

News Flash

I was playing poker in Asheville N.C. with a new substance that a magician friend of mine gave to me in order to adhere my punch to my thumb quicker in a game and it backfired.

My punch came off of my thumb while dealing and stuck right onto the back of a card that I dealt a sucker right in the middle of the game. {I deal the bump with my punch still on my thumb} It stuck to his fingers as he was placing the card in his hand and as he did this he said out loud, ďwhat the hell is this?Ē as the punch fell right in the middle of the table for all to see. The sucker picked the punch back up and looked at it while it was sticking to his fingers like a hard bugga and then shook it off throwing it to the floor after I said itís probably nothing; now how much of a sucker can these Jap Wise guys be?

Donít answer this question because I have shown my item for examination to a whole room full of magicians and cheats to see and no one knew what it was either. As a matter of fact now that I remember, it has happened to me in the past a few times and thatís why I switched to using Krazy Glue but since it hasnít happened in years, I forgot it ever happened before. LOL. The good old days.

Not Knowing What To Look For

Tommy you might just be being a little too cautious but I understand why, I love life too? Thatís why my punch is so small my cold deck is so good and my dice switch so great. But on another note how can people know what to look for if they donít know that it exist?

This is one of my prime reasons why I donít sell my punch or want wanna-beís making it and exposing it. That night if that guy or anybody else knew at the table what it was, it could have cost me my life. But what if it is spotted? If my punch work is spotted all I would have to do while the deck is being checked is to get rid of it by sticking it under the table, in my mouth or throwing it on the floor while acting like I donít know what it is either while asking ďwhat kind of device could someone make that would make such a miniature hole like that?


You Pay When You Donít Know

To show how dumb suckerís and magicians are, I took out all of my gambling stuff that I use to win with in the act of looking for my money and placed everything on a table for all to see including my wallet and no one especially the magicians or cheats viewed any of my stuff as devices to cheat with. You see how pretty and natural my misdirection was to known card-sharps and magicians who suppose to know these things. So if yaíll fail to see it, so would a sucker.

Story Time

One day a lady said while playing rummy when I first started punch dealing, ďthat little tiny worms must have eaten through the cards because they had tiny holes right through them,Ē now how stupid is that? Yes my punch work was that horrible in the beginning. LOL. I quickly improved upon it after re-reading Phantoms of the Card Table the next day because you have to listen to your audience and correct all mistakes that you hear of before you go back to your next game. This is the day that I really started paying attention to reading comprehension and details.

Punch Devices

Note: Those big punch devices that they sell to the public are Toys R Us and are not used in real games. You might as well just use an album cover as a backboard to punch your playing cards with and save yourself some money. Didnít you see Ed Marlo use the box that the cards came in to do this ruse?

Your Friend


J3 thanks for posting it for me.

J3 I know youíre new to this thread and I know you my people and youíre cool, but just like every other student in my class (this thread) who says something stupid has to be picked on in ďThe School of Hard KnocksĒ in order for all to learn. Donít take this personal, Iím teaching and you should have read my previous post so now youíre the pick of the day.

Stop Pointing the Finger at Peopleís Faults

Whoís talking about one of my teacherís (Ed Marlo) bottom or cigar bottom? Was he not a magician? Why are you critiquing his bottom deal if heís a magician? If youíre going to critique a cheating move then critique my bottom, Ed never claimed to be an expert bottom dealer. Didnít I tell you that there is a secret society (you should have read my previous post) so why would you think a magician like Ed had super powers in order to infiltrate it in order to learn the bottom deal the correct way just to show you.

What some of you fail to understand and keep this info. in your pocket, there is not enough time in the day to practice every move that you know in magic or in gambling so youíre going to be lacking in some category or another and this is what I believe was the problem with Ed Marlo on certain moves that he demonstrated.

This genius did so much for magic and gambling that he didnít have enough time to perfect it all and as he said, he held a deck of cards in his hands as soon as he got up in the morning, so if he didnít have enough time from morning Ďtil night and he lived to about 78 yrs old, shouldnít that tell you that there was too much stuff for him to learn and learn proficiently. Like I said before, judge mine and give Ed a break.

Stop Being Butt Kissers

I might get overwhelmed with arguments for saying this but so what. Why are you so called magicians and wanna-be hustlers not critiquing all the well known gambling videos and DVDís of guys doing the bottom deal at this forum? Are you scared, butt kissing or what? Donít tell me that yaíll havenít seen knuckle flashes, fingers dropping, deck tilting in these videos/DVDís so why has there been no threads about these individuals?

Stop talking about the faults of the great dead magicians that has lead the way for us newcomers and talk about the live ones while theyíre here to defend themselves and can answer you back? I know Iím not the only one who saw these flashes etc. so why no threads about their lack of ability to do these moves?

I donít hold any punches when teaching and yes this is how I spoke when I got kicked off of Card Shark when they started talking about my other teacher Darwin. Yaíll can easily talk about people when theyíre dead or not around to defend themselves but when those that are present are around you run like cowards. Stop pointing the finger and take my video of the bottom and the middle deal and improve upon it. I REPEAT, USE MY BOTTOM DEAL AS A MODEL TO FOLLOW, CRITIQUE IT, AND TAKE POT SHOTS AT ME WHILE IíM HERE AND IMPROVE UPON IT BUT LEAVE THESE GREAT MAGICIANS BOTTOM DEAL ALONE FROM NOW ON.

My Bottom Deal

Iíve seen bottom deals from the best of them and I may be tooting my horn again but I like mine the best besides Damienís with my handling. I am sorry to say that Iíve seen a better one than mine and that the thumb lifts off of the top card while itís being dealt and also when the second is being dealt but thatís the only one Iíve seen that looks perfectly natural when dealing and yes I can do both if need be; the only reason why I donít do it is because it clashes with my punch deal (to be honest, Iím too lazy to make it work) but give me about 1/2 hour of practice with it and Iíll be back in the swing of things again.

This Caucasian gentleman whose name I canít remember at the moment does the best second and bottom deal that Iíve ever saw. I believe he lives in Florida now but Iím not sure. Meir Yedid, Bill Kalush, Ricky Jayís Manager and Herb Zarrow can vouch for what Iím saying because they are the oneís who introduced me to him years ago at Herb Zarrowís house.

Again, leave them alone and use my handling as a starting point and watch the magic.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: e-man (Jul 22, 2004 01:47AM)
I would imagine that your storyline (patter) would be somewhat different than the original classic gambler vs. Magician plot.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 22, 2004 04:48AM)
On 2004-07-22 00:24, George Devol wrote:
You are trying too hard to prove your point, that you get a bit offensive and off the track. We are exchanging information and sharing our opinions, not trying to impose anything to anyone.


My point was to explain what I said in one post (in another thread), not to dissuade you of your views. The strength of my response was due to the tone of your response. I haven't gotten off track, either - please stick to the facts.

As I have said repeatedly, I don't care if your views align with mine - if you don't think that Scott was looking down his nose at those edgemarks while blindfolded well, that's your opinion.

And, as you note, the point here is to express opinions. If you read Doc's posts (I mean [i]analytically[/i]*) you'll note that he actively seeks out new and diverging views. He embraces differing opinions.

Doc is a friend of mine - I have spent time in his company and I can attest to his skills. But he's not the problem here. The problem is a bunch of magicians who only want one opinion. That's clear now, so I'll stay away from your little fan club.

Seriously hope this has helped you...


*A joke. I'm sure there's nothing seriously wrong with your critical faculties.


There are a lot of guys who read all these posts like myself and appreciate you giving your thougts.

Most don't reply, but take everything you ,doc and the other "Top guns" say on board.

Please don't let one persons opinion stop you from posting.

As 99.9% of us believe that your knowledge and experiance are important for this topic.

We arnt expecting you to "tip" anything as I'm sure you wont anyway :) but just give your opinions on whats been said.




Im gald your still here keeping this topic alive.

you said an in earlier post that you were dealing seconds and you caught a hanger.
The guy said to deal them again and you carried on dealing seconds.. :)

What was the first thought that entered your mind when you caught a hanger?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 22, 2004 04:59AM)
Kukram my first thoughts were, Oops.... you don't want to know the rest of the stuff that went through my mind. This is why it's good to play with people you know; I knew this guy well that I was playing with.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 22, 2004 09:27AM)
Hi Doc

Thanks. I think you are right about Erdnase using a partner or more than one.
I am from England and I can only tell you how things are from this side of the lake. I have no experience of how things are in the USA.

Over here you do need a partner, broadly speaking, because, in poker, a dealer almost always deals the games, not the players. There are two dealers a game, which change over every half hour. They work for tips. Two decks are used, kems, one deck for each dealer who sorts the deck in suit order before he sits to deal and the deck is spread to show the players all the cards are there.

The shuffle on every hand starts with a wash, then riffle, riffle, strip cut, riffle and then the dealer cuts. At this point the players can cut but it has become a rare thing now for a player to cut!
The above is the general picture in high stake private games of poker.

It is not difficult here to become a dealer in fact there is a demand. Even in some casinos you can deal in poker and work for tips. The procedure is much the same as in private games.

The main cash game here is Omaha. Played with 4,5 and six cards, dealer button choice. Choice of number, restricted sometimes because of the number of players, i.e. not enough cards to go around.
The most important cards are the turn and the river. A skilled cardician can know what these cards are going to be without resorting to false dealing or marked cards etc but by the use of a blind shuffle combo, which simulates the procedure.
This is not easy but can be done and not detected by even the fastest company at the table. I am not sure if it could be detected by the eye in the sky, which as the benefit of replay over and over.
At the private games that would be most difficult to prove or even suspect.
I do not say that this kind of move is more effective than false dealing etc but only say, in my opinion, that it is safer and still gets the money. I hope this clears up where I am coming from.
I am in no way saying that the way you do things there are wrong but I think over here the high-risk moves would not be necessary.
I appreciate you have to do whatever is necessary. The idea held by a lot of magicians is that, all successful card cheats, will find it necessary to have the skill to deal seconds, centers and bottoms, hop cuts, switch decks and cards, use marked cards and use all kinds of other gadgets and it is the wrong idea in my opinion.
Over here a pro will look for move that is safe. He will practice that move to perfection. He will target a game and hit that game, with that move, over and over again. He would know well in advance exactly what he was going to do before he got to the game.
In other words he will not go and land at a strange game to him and use skills from an arsenal of skills that he might have. This kind of cardsharp would be a rare bird over here. In the USA the set up will no doubt be more conducive to this kind of expert.

Doc it sounds to me like you enjoy living right on the edge. I wish I had as much fun. I sincerely wish you good luck.
Message: Posted by: J3 (Jul 22, 2004 11:33AM)
I may be new to this thread but not to you, lol. I think you know me as JCGDoom on Instant messenger;)

But anyways I posted about marlo in order to get my post to stick, as my first 2 were deleted, I honestly am neutral to his riffle shuffle systems, the reason I used this as an example is because on his primetime dvd Jon R. says marlo himself knew this wouldnt fly in the real world. But that's not to say I don't think of marlo as a great cardician, I do, otherwise why would I keep buying his dvds and books?
(and why would I even use the term cardician?)

Also I wish youd post your strike second topic over at cnc, cuz you know I wouldnt delete that.

That is all.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 22, 2004 02:02PM)
Dear Andrew,

thank you for your reply. I would like to apologize if the tone of my previous response offended your feelings in any way. I respect you as an expert card manipulator and I have learned and continue to learn from your video and lecture notes, quite a few things. One thing that motivated me to buy your excellent stuff, was Doc's praise for your middle deal. And I must say I wasn't dissapointed :)

Regarding the blindfold that Scott was wearing, it is stated in Gazzo's book that it was a black pillow case. You can also see it in the photograph accompanying the text. I believe that Scott used this kind of blindfold to guard against exactly your kind of thinking; which is common knowledge even to laymen that you can peek down your nose.

Wearing a black sack down your head and around your neck, how can anybody, even with the eyes wide open, see anything?? Unless, Scott was using an extremely clever peeking system through this kind of blindfold and withhold this information from McGuire or even Gazzo and this technique was never published.

Anyway, opinions vary and all are mostly welcomed. I'm just offering my understaning and evaluation. The New York's demonstration is fully described in Gazzo's book and explains some of the difficulties that you may have to deal with, when you use the peg. That's why Scott used the edge work; to ensure a successfull demo.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, I don't consider this thread a "little fun club". Saying so, I think you degrade Doc's sincere efforts to educate, sincerelly willing to learn, amateur magicians like myself. I don't believe that Doc's intention is to expose himself, just to have magicians to pay homage to. This unavoidably might happen, as someone can attest that this man is a rare species to encounter.

Overall, I consider myself extremelly privileged of being able to share my thoughts and interact with highly respected individuals in magic, such as yourself. I hope that our rebuttal will continue, in a friendly spirit, as I do not wish to prove anything to anybody.


Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 22, 2004 03:18PM)
Tommy I don't enjoy living on the edge, I don't even like to gamble to be honest with you.

Note: In order to beat that poker game, practice Steve Forte's or the Sting's cold deck move, pre-set the hands in the bathroom and you'll be able to beat that poker game you mentioned.

Your Friend


Yiannis that was another excellent evaluation by looking at pictures and reading comprehension.

You are correct of why Walter had to do it that way. Why? Not all times when you shuffle a deck when using punch work does your cards appear at the top half of the deck so to assure that it did and at certain intervals this ruse was necessary to insure the perfect deal.

Your Friend and Wanna-be Teacher


P.S. I did this same feat years ago at a magic convention and it went over excellent.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 22, 2004 05:02PM)
Dear Doc,

I would like to thank you a great deal for your previous post. I consider it an honour and I treasure this kind of respect from a person I would like to consider as my teacher. As I have said before, I've been following your posts around the internet and your comments about other people's work (like in magic video depot, were you made a very informative comment about the middle deal of a guy named fabian - this actually caught my attention and I got Andrew's video and notes).

In that respect, you've been my teacher for quite a long time now :) When I discovered the quality of your thinking, I started to collect and record your posts. And when I watched the clips in cyngaporemagic, I started to practice with your moves as a base. I had to re-learn a great deal, but I think I'll be rewarded at the end.

There are so many things that I would like to ask you, and I'll do when I feel ready to comprehend your answers. Now, I'm busy practising my bottom deal utilizing your handling from the clip. You know, the quicktime format that you are using, provides quite handy functions. The frame by frame utility to watch the clip, is helping more than you can think!!

I have even produced a mini e-book, describing the move with accompanying frames from the clip, for my ease of practice. So, I'm not only reading between the lines, I can also watch between the frames :) When I feel confident with my ability, I'll post my questions, the answers of which I hope will help anybody, who can make the most of what he can comprehend from reading your - full of tips, advices and many many, hints - wonderfull posts.

Doc, I'm honoured to have you as my teacher. And if you consider this interaction as the beginning of a friendship as well, the honour is even greater.

Your student and wanna-be friend

Message: Posted by: Metalepsis (Jul 22, 2004 08:01PM)
Is anyone else on this thread interested in lexical overlap? Just curious...

Message: Posted by: ASW (Jul 22, 2004 08:52PM)

I had forgotten that Scott wore a pillow case. So perhaps I am, in the end, wrong after all! (Besides, you know what they say about opinions). Mea culpa.

Mind you, how were the edge marks of use unless he had some way of seeing them? As far as he knew, the cards could have been cut, shuffled (or even switched!) while he was in the dark. (Okay, maybe not switched, LOL). Sure, McGuire was there to keep an eye on things, but he doesn't strike me as the sharpest tool in the shed.

He must have had some way of getting the additional info prior to the deal, otherwise the marks were pointless... No doubt he was asked to repeat the deal several times. Did he remove the blindfold each time? Would kind of slow things up. What does the book say? (I won't be in a position to revisit it until later next week).

You speculate that it was possible he used a sophisticated blindfold system and held stuff back from McGuire and others. Who knows in regard to the blindfold? I think it is certainly the case in regard to other areas - that's suggested in the text in the way that Scott was a mercurial figure when interviewed. The problem is, we'll never know.

My [i]guess[/i] is that he did have some way of reading the marks despite the blindfold. And I still subscribe to the view that he was more of a demo man in the sense that Miller concluded, than a hustler who worked spots on his own or with a partner.

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jul 22, 2004 11:16PM)
I cannot recall where I read it but I recall that someone asserted that Al Baker (?) partook in the switching in and out of a very prepared deck for Scott at the big black pillowcase demo. In other words the deck that the Inner Circle inspected was not in fact the one he used... Geez I could be so off here...and I hate not knowing my facts. Perhaps one of our resident scholars (Mr Roat? Mr Chosse?) will know something about this. I don't know if I believe this or not, but I'm just saying it's something I know I read somewhere... and can't recall where.
Message: Posted by: Ethan500 (Jul 23, 2004 12:23AM)
Dear Doc,

I was just viewing your video files, superbly done! On your dice switch, is that a 'topit' method? In a real game do you consider the palm and thumb switch method to be inferior to the one you are using?

Any comment will be very much appreciated.

Best regards,
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 23, 2004 01:29AM)
Ethan thanks for writing and no that's not a topit even though I do have a jacket that I can use that has a topit in it for my dice switches. This would be the second stage of my dice handling that I have not shown the public.

What you will witness if you see me work is a Carl Cloutier sleeving and topit expert combined with a person who can do Raven-like dice switches in which you just saw part two of my move. Didn't I tell ya'll that I learn from the magicians, well I do? Ethan If you would've read my previous post on this you would have known what it was without asking.

Ethan regarding your last question why would you ask such a thing? The only thing that beats a palm is a complete vanish especially if a magician like yourself is trying to see if I'm doing anything wrong or not; use your brain and ask yourself which is inferior? If I could fool a magician who knows what to look for, then I definitely wouldn't have a problem fooling a sucker.

Sometimes I just can't understand certain questions people ask. Have you ever done a coin vanish and the spectator ask to see your other hand? Well if you could do this vanish you wouldn't have this problem no matter how perfect you can palm a coin.

Your Friend


P.S. Oh, thanks for the compliment.

Andrew regarding the edge work and don't quote me on this because I'm on the road and don't have the book next to me, but I believe that when Walter had someone in the audience to shuffle the cards, as he got the deck and walked back to where ever, if he saw that the edge marks were in the lower half of the deck he would hop the deck while in the process of walking back to the table but if the edge marks were in the upper half, he would just let it be and do his Royal Flush deal.

Like I previously stated, this would insure that the trick worked 100% of the time. On the down-low, I should do this move when playing head up Tonk or Coon-Can so that I can make sure that the cards that I want are the cards that will be there when I need them.

Your Friend


Yiannis you see by Andrew re-reading and conversating with you, it shows that we all are still imperfect and that we can still learn from each other if we just take the time to listen and read; this is why I'm proud of you both.

Let's all learn from from each other and thank you Steve Brooks for making this Cafť where we all can hang out.

Yiannis I would be proud to be your teacher even though I didn't know you snuck into my class along time ago and started learning on your own.

I like students like this especially those who take initiative. Forum, God gave us all particular talents, let's us use it to His glory.

Yiannis Your Proud Teacher

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 23, 2004 08:19AM)
I have no experence with edge marks.
I assume the are for lookig at but can anyone tell me if you can feel them as you deal?

If so you could deal then as in the punch.

Thanks Doc.
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 23, 2004 09:52AM)
Are punch deals a common move for an advantage player?
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jul 23, 2004 10:07AM)

Punch = tactile
Edgemarks = optical

More or less, give or take.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 23, 2004 10:27AM)
Tommy, regarding your questions, do more reading. Learn the basics first. You're moving too fast. When you have finished with that then re-read these post regarding edge work.

Slakk, any gambling move or marking system is an advantage to an advantage player. If punch deals were a common move, why is it that so many people don't know about it or do know about it but don't use it?

Because Braille is for the blind.

I've answered your question without answering it. Do some homework and stop begging for answers. If you're not trying to cheat for a living, you don't need to know these answers anyway; and if you are trying to cheat you don't want these answers out.

Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 23, 2004 03:23PM)

When I first read the McGuire's book, long before Gazzo's book was published, I had many questions about the New York's demonstration. McGuire describes Scott's work as totally and unquestionably perfect. I couldn't figure out how he could successfully deal a hand of high cards, consisting of Kings and Aces in one round!
Wearing the pillow, and having the cards shuffled! Using only eight pegged cards in a game of, let's say five hands, the cards might not show up at all during the deal, as Doc mentioned in his post.

I came to the conclusion that the McGuire's description was superficial and not accurate at all. Only when I read Gazzo's book, about the edge work and about the Scott's presentation, that I finally understood the technique.

In the book, Gazzo says, that Scott was using a bridge deal to demonstrate his peg work, while blindfolded. He would peg the Aces, Kings, Queens and Jacks and he would very easily dealt a no-trump hand to himself. Something like the Jack Pyle's bridge demonstration in later years. Even if he was demonstrating a poker deal, the chances to deal a flush would be very high. With 16 pegged cards to control, the demonstration was much easier to conclude successfully.

You mention something very important in your post. Something that in the book is not clear enough. Scott had the cards shuffled and cut before the blindfold was put on. So, he could gauge, using the edge work, where the cards were prior to dealing blindfolded. Now, in the book it doesn't say, if the demonstration was repeated while blindfolded. It's very logical to assume, that he would have been asked to do it again.

But, it is stated in the book, that even though the other magicians were in control of the cards, Scott was always in control of the demonstration. He would not accept a condition, where he would fail to deliver his demonstration successfully.

From this remark, I conclude that if Scott could repeat the deal while blindfolded, he would do it. If not, he would use a different out, to conclude his demo successfully. A typical exhibition, with exactly this kind of thinking, is offered in page 236 of the paperback edition of Gazzo's book.

Earlier in Gazzo's book, though, there is a short paragraph with Max Holden's description of the first New York demonstration at Al Baker's house. Scott was asked to deal a six hand game in poker. At the end of the deal Scott's hand was consisting of four Kings and an Ace. Cards were shuffled and when he was asked to do it again, he dealt himself a royal high flash. This was done while blindfolded. Then, Al Baker's cards were borrowed and placed in Scott's hand. (Scafidi7, in the book it's not mentioned anything about a collusion between Al Baker and Scott, but Scott says that he used to switch decks himself when he was invited in another person's house).

This is where it is not mentioned in the description, if the blindfold was on or not. Scott proceeded to tell at which position of the deck were the Kings and Aces. If he was using only the edge work, he should have done it without the blindfold on. (Fulll description on page 68 of the paperback edition).

Overall, I believe that Walter Scott was the real thing, as far as his peg work is concerned. If he was a real cheat and if he used his remarkable skills to cheat at cards, is something that everyone would have to decide on their own. Anyone who is interested in Scott's work, should read the books, listen to other people's opinions and draw his own conclusions.

With this in mind, Andrew, I totally respect your conclusion. I also agree with you, that Scott was an excellent showman. Something that Cardini believed too and, of course, Charlie Miller.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Jul 23, 2004 04:57PM)
Charlie Miller is THE one guy who would know a "thief" from a thief. Consider anything ascribed to CM very carefully, it is probably the most reliable assessment available.

Some folks who know will tell you this: The wrong people got the "reps" in the magic world. But, that's how Charlie wanted it, low-key. He knew more about magic and gambling than anyone around, and HE was the real "underground" guy.


Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 23, 2004 08:14PM)
Dear teacher,

Regarding Andrew's expertise in the deck marking scheme, it is remarkable that in one sentence, he described all the techniques that took me five years of reading and researching to find out they exist, in the Dai Vernon's books and tapes, in Paul Rossini's, in Darwin's, in Houdini's, in Maskelyne's, in ECT and many others.

Isn't it remarkable how easily you can get the information you want, IF you can read between the lines and have an eye for things? I wish this excellent cyber-space Cafť where we can all interact and exchange information was there when I first started out.

Let me share my experience with card marking used for cheating. My first encounter with the concept of professional card marking was in the ECT book in 1999, when I first started out in magic after seeing the movie Sting. Prior to that time, even though I was playing cards for money in private games among friends, I was ďasleepĒ. I originally come from Greece, where playing cards in private is a very common past time. Even though it's illegal to play for money, you can find very high stake games going almost everywhere.

The most common cheating techniques used are peeking, discard culling and memorizing, and card marking. But nothing as sophisticated as described in magic books. Forget about false dealing and shuffling, stacking, hopping the cut, etc. The methods were, and are, very, very simple. All you have to do, is misdirect, and do it when everybody is busy looking at their own hands. And let me tell you. Almost everybody is cheating in these kind of games, one way or another.

I got some of these information from a gambler I met, while I was doing my army service in 2000, a year after I discovered advanced advantage playing in cards. (He thought I was an expert in card cheating, after I showed him my ambitious card routine using a gambling theme).

He was cheating primarily using a marking system, which he was putting on the cards, during a very popular game called ďThanasisĒ (very similar to Coon Can). In this game, you are counting points and to write them down. Most of the time a ballpoint pen and a paper book are used. Ballpoint pens sometimes become messy and leave smudges of ink on the paper, and if you are not careful, you get ink on your hands 90% of the time when you write something down.

As this is common it doesn't arouse any suspicion when your fingertips or nails are messed with ink. This guy was deliberately putting a small smudge of ink on his forefinger's nail, and during play, he would mark the court cards on both front edges.

After the work was on, he would use it later during the game, when playing ďpolkaĒ (a big family of poker type games) or ďstockĒ (a form of blackjack). All he was doing, was keeping track of the high cards, when they were dealt around the table. But he was using this system to win big money, when the game of ďstockĒ was played.

In this game, you are playing against the dealer, one player at a time. Cards are dealt closed to the player, one at a time. The game is blackjack and you can stop at anytime you think you can beat the dealer. Now the dealer have to deal to himself, with the objective to beat your hand, which he doesn't know. Winner is of course the person with the highest hand or when the other player's hand is busted.

This guy would ďreadĒ the marks and decide when to draw a card or not. It was because of this game that we became to know each other. At that time, I had mastered the Buckley's second deal (very similar to the technique John Scarne used in Sting) and the bubble peak. I was using them exclusively for this game.

This is what happened one day, when I was the dealer and dealing to him. Several times, he would spot a court card, which I had peeked as well and signaled me to deal it to him. But I was keeping it back to deal it in my own hand. You can imagine his frustration and surprise, when he was getting something else and could see the card still on top of the deck!

During the game he showed nothing, and after that he was not betting heavily during my deal. And I, of course, didn't suspect anything. I was very happy that my second deal was undetectable. :)

The other day a gang of guys approached me (him included) and asked me politely if I knew any magic trick with cards. And I did a terrible mistake that Erdnase points out as the deathblow to a professional (I hadn't read his book then). Even though I'm not and I certainly wasn't a professional at that time, I couldn't participate again in another card game in the camp. I just showed them an ambitious card routine. To be exact, I used the move Vernon used to fool Houdini, a couple of times.

That was it! The news spread, everybody wanted to see some magic and nobody was willing to let me play in their game. :)

After I became the camp's magician, this gambler and I became friends and we exchanged information about cheating at cards. Actually he was the one who instructed the guys to ask me about magic. When I showed him the second deal and how he could learn it, he quickly dismissed it as dangerous and too hard to lean. (This is similar to Tommy's thinking in a post earlier in the forum.) He also said that he had never suspected that such a thing was possible.

Anyway, that was five years ago. After I finished my service, I was able again to research more into the subject. And here I am now, learning from the professional!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 23, 2004 08:38PM)
What does it mean to you when a Yahoo blows a workable marking system just so they can save a nickle on daub for a 'find the card' trick?

As Doc said, braille is for the blind. Since it is to your advantage to keep your eyes on the players, the evident is now obvious.

And you, folks, seem to want this the common knowledge?

What's next? Going to teach people how to cut their nails?
Message: Posted by: yussel (Jul 23, 2004 11:09PM)

On page 122 of the Britland/Gazzo book, "Phantoms of the Card Table", Britland wrote, "The highest compliment of all was paid by gambling expert Tony Giorgio, who some years later, wrote in Genii, 'There are several magicians who use punched cards in gambling demonstrations, but I've never seen anyone who can compete with Gazzo.'"

Have you met Giorgio, or read any of his articles? He seems really to know the score.
Message: Posted by: ASW (Jul 24, 2004 03:16AM)
Interesting comments, Yiannis.

Note that I never said Scott wasn't a hustler. I just don't think he worked games as much as he was part of the inside team in scams to cold deck some rich sucker. He would demo his incredible skills with cards before the game, and the sucker would think he was onto a dead cert. I don't need to explain how this plays out. You can read about it and even see it dramatised in movies like Shade.


P.S. I didn't give anything sexy away in that post about marks. That's all basic stuff. Check out Ortiz's books, for example. Or the Judson Cameron book.

P.P.S. I know Tony Giorgio, though not well. I totally respect his knowledge when it comes to hustling. Note that Giorgio described Scott as a demonstrator. LOL.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 24, 2004 07:34AM)
On 2004-07-23 11:07, scafidi7 wrote:

Punch = tactile
Edgemarks = optical

More or less, give or take.

That is what the average magician thinks.

I got the idea that Walter Scott was a bit smarter than normal, and it occurred to me he might have been the one pulling the wool over the magicians' eyes. I ask myself, if he was blindfolded for real, then why use edge work that cannot be seen blindfolded? The logical answer is that he could feel it!

I am sorry, Doc, if I missed that this point is covered above. To be truthful I have not read everything and I should have.
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jul 24, 2004 08:24AM)
On 2004-07-24 08:34, tommy wrote:

That is what the average magician thinks.

True. Which is why I covered myself with the blanket statement "More or less, give or take"---meaning that there is sometimes more going on than meets the eye (!) in any situation. As for feeling the edgemarks, well, only Scott could answer that one. I wonder what he'd say. It would probably be rather colloquial.
Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Jul 24, 2004 09:42AM)

No offence intended here, but I'm getting a bit exasperated reading these posts. You might want to wait before just jumping in and disagreeing with people. Your response to Scafidi, when translated, sounds like this:

"Sure. Sure. Edgemarks are optical, and Punches are tactile. Scott was a slippery eel(and smarter than the rest of us), and I think he used the edgemarks with his eyes, and used his fingers for dealing the blisters."

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 24, 2004 11:50AM)
I mean no offence, Ron, and I did not mean it to imply that you guys were average. I am sorry for the wording.

Let me try to clarify the point for you.

It is a common belief that the EDGE MARKS are for "optical" use.

That Mr. Scott could have used this belief to his advantage to deceive by using the tactile element of the EDGE MARKS rather than their optical element.

I can see from Scafidi7 answer that he understood this point but I am sorry to say that you have not.

"Sure. Sure. Edge Marks are optical, and Punches are tactile. Scott was a slippery eel(and smarter than the rest of us), and I think he used the edgemarks with his eyes, and used his fingers for dealing the blisters."

I hope you can now see that Scafidi7 and I are not in disagreement, that your exasperation is lessened and you can chill out.
Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Jul 24, 2004 01:35PM)
You strain a knot, and I need no chilling. I was merely speaking to the clarity of your post, which may be "smarter" writing than I can muster, but I am typing "blindfolded" most of the time.

You are not incorrect about the composite makeup of the thinking that extends from magicians. Walter Scott could have used a blister to fool a group of magicians concerned only with edgemarks, since magicians very easily accept a "single method " theory. And thinking about it, once the infamous pillow case is brought into play, the ability to [i]feel[/i] the edgemarks would be where any magician would predictably take his investigations--not looking for a punch a quarter of an inch away. I would assume that there was no tactile quality for the edgemarks because of these generalities concerned with magicians and their pet theories.

I have no knowledge as to what he did exactly, but looking at the diagram of Scott's punch (in the Britland book) would indicate that he could have very easily punched the cards in question while visibly edge-marking them individually--with no one in the room being the wiser.

Who knows?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 24, 2004 02:17PM)
LOL. Ron, you are right.

Please do not take offence at me. I mean none.

Yours sincerely,

Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Jul 24, 2004 02:29PM)
Tommy, no problem. I'm sorry about my attitude.
Message: Posted by: tonto (Jul 24, 2004 05:46PM)
I have read all the posts in this thread, but this is my first post. I am new to magic, and I am interested in gambling moves. I have a copy of Expert at the Card Table, but I have trouble understanding it. I would like to know what sleights I should concentrate on. Perhaps Doc can answer my question; it would be greatly appreciated.

I play poker at a country club of which I am a member. I suspect that one of the players, who is a relatively new member, may be cheating. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should look for?

I have enjoyed reading the messages posted by Doc. I wonder why he did not respond to the post by Yussel?
Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (Jul 24, 2004 07:10PM)

This is probably not the answer you are looking for, but concentrate on Erdnase from the beginning. Reread paragraphs as much as you have to in order to comprehend it. It takes time.

Why do you suspect a member may be cheating?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 25, 2004 05:45AM)
I'm in Huntsville hustling at the motorcycle races. Guess what? Three white Sheriffs came over and wanted to play with us. They were nice and real cool. The black Sheriff came around later and acted like a butt hole.

Message: Posted by: tonto (Jul 25, 2004 03:04PM)
Hi Doc,

I find it hard to believe that on-duty law enforcement officers would ask to participate in a criminal activity. Isn't gambling illegal in Alabama?

Although I respect your talent, posts such as your last post lead me to suspect that you are either putting us on or that you may be embellishing the truth. What's the scoop, Doc?

By the way, is it not true that card and dice cheaters avoid publicity and never call attention to themselves? According to the book, Expert at the Card Table, which I am reading, advantage players try not to call attention to themselves.

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jul 25, 2004 07:01PM)
As has been mentioned here before, Doc tells it like it is.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 25, 2004 07:03PM)

this thread is 14 pages long and quite a task to read and comprehend all these posts, and you are maybe excused for your ignorance about Doc and his activities.

You asked Doc about what sleights you should be concentrating on. Concentrating, for what? When you are finished reading the Erdnase book and then you re-read it another 100 times, you should be able at least to understand some of the answers that Doc might give.

About law enforcement and criminal activity... it seems you are either too young and innocent or too naive to ask such questions.

Please, don't waste Doc's time on this forum, with such requests, especially on topics that have been discussed with others allready.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jul 25, 2004 07:16PM)

I second Yiannis. Doc's credentials have been established on the first pages of this thread.

Police officers are just like the rest of us. You do not need to agree with the laws to have a job on upholding them. What you do on your spare time has nothing to do with it. Anyone can enjoy gambling: solicitors, priests, teachers etc.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 25, 2004 07:46PM)
Cops are human like the rest of us.

Doc has had plenty of the top guns saying he's the real deal.

Message: Posted by: DaveM (Jul 25, 2004 08:49PM)
While there will always be player "haters", I have personally found Doc's postings to be a fascinating read.

Sure a lot more interesting than some rants by some magician/cheater "wannabes".

I think this guys the real deal, and I sincerely appreciate the very rare glimpse he has provided us into HIS world.

Just wish he would visit more often.

Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Jul 25, 2004 11:02PM)
I hear a giant sucking sound from the masses.

Why don't the grovelers just put their hands back in their [i]own[/i] pants and leave the novices alone--or let Doc field the questions. Or perhaps you guys think a man who crossroads in Harlem can't handle a little challenge to his credibility from an aparrent amateur?

Man you guys are pathetic. Do you think you have proprietary rights to Doc's correspondence?
Message: Posted by: tonto (Jul 26, 2004 12:45AM)
It was not my intention to offend Scafidi, Yiannis, Pekka, Dave M. or anyone else. I respect everyones opinion and I do not expect the acceptance of my opinions without question. I just asked Doc legitimate and logical questions. His posts on a forum of this nature invite such questions.

I play a lot of poker and I am planning to enter some poker tournaments. I would feel more confortable if I knew what to look out for, and I would be amenable to paying any reasonable amount to witness live, in person demonstrations of card cheating. But, I would want the instructor to be qualified.

Regarding Doc., I have a questions for Scafidi: are you qualified to authenticate the validity of Doc's claims. Are you a card cheater? I notice that you are from Canada; have you any knowledge of law enforcement in Alabama?

Yianiss: I notice that you live in London, England. Are you implying that uniformed policemen in the state of Alabama would ask to participate in an unlawful activity, or are you suggesting that the police accepted bribes from Doc?

Pekka, I did not ask for Doc's credentials, but your assertion regarding Doc's credentials invites the question: what are your credentials?

Kukram, And, what are your credentials?

Dave M., What real world experience or knowledge enables you to distinguish the difference between fact and fantasy in the world of professional card cheaters?

If he cares to answer, I have other questions for Doc.

Doc says that he is "hustling" in Alabama and that he came to the notice of sherrifs while gambling. Where was he gambling? Out of doors? In a hotel room? Were the sherrifs in uniform? Did the sheriffs solicit bribes? What game was Doc playing? If Alabama sherrifs saw him gambling they would be duty bound to arrest Doc and all other players; Doc then mentions his disapproval of a "black" sherrif who also would be compelled to arrest Doc and other gamblers.
Why didn't the sherrifs arrest Doc?

Perhaps, Doc has a way of avoiding arrest. that information would be just as valuable and interesting as some sleight of hand angle. So please let Doc answer.

The other thing that puzzles me is Doc's willingness to not only reveal his identity and subterfuges, but to tell everyone where he is practing his craft.

Because I could be wrong, I would not be so presumtious as to unequivocally state that Doc is not a hustler or that he indulges in hyperbole. Its just that it doesn't ring true, it is illogical to expect a card or dice cheater to advertise his presence.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 26, 2004 01:04AM)
Having followed this thread closely, I must say that I find the reactions of Tonto and Ron highly refreshing. There have been times when this thread has slipped into a kind of sycophancy and fauning that has been truly nauseating. I do value Doc's posts and have learned a great deal from his contributions. But his is not the only opinion in the Universe and I have learned as much and sometimes more from the contributions of those around this thread and in others. Questioning and critical enquiry are essential for healthy debate. On the other hand, idealisation is the enemy of curiosity and proper reflection.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jul 26, 2004 05:16AM)
On 2004-07-26 01:45, tonto wrote:
It was not my intention to offend Scafidi, Yiannis, Pekka, Dave M. or anyone else.

Tonto - no offence was taken, at least not by me. My response simply stated that I believe that Doc is a guy who tells the truth - if his stories seem a little crazy at times, it's probably due to the nature of his line of work.

Regarding Doc., I have a questions for Scafidi: are you qualified to authenticate the validity of Doc's claims. Are you a card cheater? I notice that you are from Canada; have you any knowledge of law enforcement in Alabama?

I don't know what university I'd have to go to to be qualified to authenticate the validity of Doc's claims. I don't recall stating that I was a card cheat. I also don't recall stating that I had any knowledge of law enforcement in Alabama.
These 3 things aren't necessarily relevant in order for me to state that I believe that Doc shoots straight.

There's nothing wrong with you posting like you did - it's good to question people if you are unsure of what they're saying. Just be prepared for reactions from others, as that's what people do on these boards.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 26, 2004 07:53AM)

You made a good point but it was so over the top.

There were a couple of posts which IMO were out of order to tonto.But your ranting back doesn't solve anything.

It just puts you in the same light as 'some' of the people who replied to tonto.A polite reply to those posters would have done more.


Check my post again.You seem to think that I said something to stop your questions coming.

I hate it when people don't read what I say and then take offemce at something I never said.

Plus there were some fine points made after your original post to take on board.No one said it has to be taken as the gospel.

IMO-Doc is the real deal.What you think is up to you.

Kukram :)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 26, 2004 08:05AM)
Ron thank you. You are gentleman.
I will take your advice and try to word things better in future.

On a lighter note, I have to tell you that your reply "You are enough to strain a knot" had me and the boys at my poker game in tears laughing.
I had just taken a sip of coffee and when I read it.
Whats funny asked one of the boys. So I told him
"I have just been told I am enough to strain a knat."
You mean a "knot" not a knat he said. I checked and said oh, yeh, your right, a "knot".
I am now being called "Tommy the Knat Strainer"

I thought you meant one of then little insect things that fly about, over here we call them knats. I will have to get some glasses.

I do not play in my own poker game, I just run it.
This is an illeagal game because a session is charged per hour. If no money is charged by the house there is nothing illeagal about playing poker. Over here at least.
I have played poker with cops but not at my place. I did not know they were cops at the time, plain cloths kind. They are bad losers. I surpose it is because they are the ones who normaly stack the cards.
Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Jul 26, 2004 08:19AM)

My best to you. I was wondering what happened to you.


Yeah, I know it was over the top. I want it noted here that I am not about "challenging" Doc, or his credibility. Paul uses the word "sychophancy" here correctly.

I've watched Doc's posted videos, and am duly impressed. I know credible people in this forum who have attested to his skill. I happen to think Doc's is one heck of an interesting fellow. But let the man refer to a couple of people as his "students" and they start taking the Louisville Slugger to anyone who may seem the least bit Non-informed about the dark and clandestine worlf of coolers, punches, seconds and shiners.

That's all I'm saying. Doc has many times in this thread questioned a person's tendency to accept [i]anything[/i] at pure face value (hence the thread title as well). If my hyperbole offends, oh well. That's all it is.

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 26, 2004 08:31AM)
On 2004-07-26 09:19, Ron Giesecke wrote:

My best to you. I was wondering what happened to you.


Yeah, I know it was over the top. I want it noted here that I am not about "challenging" Doc, or his credibility. Paul uses the word "sycophancy" here correctly.

I've watched Doc's posted videos, and am duly impressed. I know credible people in this forum who have attested to his skill. I happen to think Doc is one heck of an interesting fellow. But let the man refer to a couple of people as his "students" and they start taking the Louisville Slugger to anyone who may seem the least bit non-informed about the dark and clandestine world of coolers, punches, seconds and shiners.

That's all I'm saying. Doc has many times in this thread questioned a person's tendency to accept [i]anything[/i] at pure face value (hence the thread title as well). If my hyperbole offends, oh well. That's all it is.



Great post. I totally agree.

Kukram :)
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jul 26, 2004 10:46AM)
Ron, cheers, mate.

I was merely saying that the issue of Doc's credibility has been discussed earlier and, in my mind, there was some sort of consensus forming in this thread that he is for real. Nothing more, nothing less.

Or would you like if in every single thread everyone would always speculate whether the poster has the stripes or not? It was not my intention to insult anyone or even support anyone. Just asking the people who are joining this thread now to read the other 14 pages too. Just as we have.


My credentials were not in question beforehand. I believe Doc because people who are known to have a very good understanding on cheating have said that he is for real. I am certainly not a person who could make such a claim on behalf of anyone.

My knowledge on cheating is rather limited. Mostly acquired from books and videos, as well as from discussions with various casino employees, etc. I have never posed as an expert on that field.

Why do you ask my credentials anyway? How would that make any difference? You ask a question and I will answer it if I can. And if my answer is not the best one out there then hopefully some one wiser will correct me. Isn't that kind of the point of these threads?

Coming back to the law enforcement people. As I said they are, I am sure of this, humans in the U.S.A too. You do not need to be from that country to know it. I have met quite a lot of law enforcement folks in my own country and some Americans too. Very similar. And I have seen many of them breaking the law too. Humans, like the rest of us.
Message: Posted by: mattisdx (Jul 26, 2004 10:51AM)
Check out Lennart Green's material for some great cheating ideas that you can use in real life. :D (That means no gimmicks, but actual miracles. ;) )
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 26, 2004 11:04AM)

I do not have any of Greens DVDs. But I like the sound of them from what you say. Which one should I get first for this kind of thing? To tell you the truth I thought they were more for the magician.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 26, 2004 02:42PM)

I find your knowledge on the meaning of Greek words and their use, excellent :)


Please excuse me for the tone of my previous post. You should really read, though, what have been posted before in the thread, before you ask anything.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 26, 2004 02:58PM)
On 2004-07-26 12:04, tommy wrote:
I do not have any of Greens DVDs. But I like the sound of them from what you say. Which one should I get first for this kind of thing? To tell you the truth I thought they were more for the magician.

They are suited for the magician.

My friend has them, and I briefly watched them. I don't think I saw anything for the card table.

Then again lots of magician's moves could help in some way under certain circumstances I suppose.
Message: Posted by: mattisdx (Jul 26, 2004 03:00PM)
The best Lennart Green Magic Volume is Volume 1. You learn so many sleights that can be used for cheating. And since Lennart uses most of what he does for "cheating" demonstrations, you get to see some real-life applications! :D
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 26, 2004 06:41PM)
The Doc is probably traveling or having computer problems. He is usually very good about replying.

Fasten your seat belts, though.
Message: Posted by: tonto (Jul 27, 2004 02:13AM)

In view of Doc's failure to respond, I am inclined to further question the contentions of those who refer to Doc as "the real thing". Someone suggested that I read all of this thread; I read the entire thread before posting my very first message and other than references to unestablished authorities, I found no credible evidence to support the claims that Doc is a real-life card and dice cheat.

However, I will not foreclose the possibility of Doc being a professional cheat. He may very well be a person who earns his living by taking advantage of the gullible. Actually, I want Doc to be a real live card and dice cheater, but again, his stories just do not ring true.

The questions I ask of Doc are not intended to discredit him. I simply seek to ascertain his self-proclaimed abilities.

I respectfully submit that the questions previously asked of Doc in this thread were largely irrelevant because his questioners did not ask questions regarding the applicability of the subterfuges Doc demonstrates to specific games.

I have no doubt that the people who post messages on this forum all have far more knowledge of sleight-of-hand and cheating methods than I do; but I am much older than Doc, and although I have no knowledge of card or dice cheating other than what I have read in books, I have played high stakes poker in Las Vegas casinos for more than 20 years. I have a personal acquaintance with many professional poker players. I also play poker in a country club of which I am a member.

Frankly, after viewing Doc's videos on the Internet, I believe that all the things he demonstrates would arouse suspicion. If Doc is a real-life cheater, he is probably not revealing the subterfuges with which he earns his living. I sure would like to know them, so that I may be more aware of cheaters.

Among the names of authorities quoted in this thread are Darwin Ortiz, Steve Forte, Gazzo, Tony Giorgio, Charlie Miller, Dai Vernon, Lennart Green and others.

I have heard of Ortiz, and I believe I saw Forte on televising. Are Tony Giorgio, Gazzo, Charlie Miller, Dai Vernon and Lennart Green magicians or gambling experts?

Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 27, 2004 03:17AM)
Hi Tonto,

I hope you are well. As I said earlier, it is refreshing to have a different 'take' on issues. With regard to Doc's credibility, personally, I have no doubt that he is the 'real thing'. His accounts of the hustling life can seem larger than life, but then that is also Doc's personality.

There is a grittiness to his accounts that give them a strong grounding in reality in my view. His experience of applying subterfuge at the card table also rings true for me. Unlike yourself, I find Doc's video's very convincing and constantly refer to them when I am practicing the dreaded bottom deal for instance.

I still can't figure out how he can deal from the bottom without making that horrible, horrible scraping noise. His moves are also very unobtrusive and naturalistic which is what I would expect from someone at the card table who did not want to draw attention to the moves. Add to this the external validation from gambling expects and magicians like Jason England, Glenn Bishop, Andrew Wimhurst etc., all who have spoken about and with Doc on these boards and know him personally, and the evidence becomes overwhelming.

There is also an intriguing overlap between card magic and gambling sleights, and since Dai Vernon's pursuit of professional gamblers and hustlers, a fertile relationship has grown up between magicians and gamblers. Hope this helps to clarify some things at least.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 27, 2004 09:29AM)
So what happened with the three white cops? Did they start to get in your game and the black cop stop them? What game were you playing, cards or dice? Were the cops in uniform? Did you keep playing after this happened? Did you make any money?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 27, 2004 11:11AM)
These are just a few opinions I have on cheating. I am not the most educated or eloquent of speakers. I tell you this beforehand in case I word something that is taken wrongly and offends. I tell you, it is and never will be my intention to offend anyone.

Let me say I have been a student of card manipulation for many years. Because of my interest in poker I have concentrated on moves that in my opinion could possibly be used at the card table. I do not claim by a long chalk to know it all.

I personally have, we will say, audience tested, pro poker players in real games with a few moves. Compared to top cardicians I would be very low on the ladder of skill, despite this fact the moves flew past them.

I can understand Tonto's point of view. It is a gambler's point of view and not a magician's or card cheat's viewpoint. He is a potential victim of the card cheat.

I have played poker with pro poker players for 40 years. I have said elsewhere that I believe that to cheat, professional card players is more difficult than an occasional player. This is not so much that they are all knowledgeable about cheating but more that they play where games are more controlled and standards of procedure are akin to that of a casino.

Like a bank teller is not an expert on fake money but can spot a fake because he is an expert on the real thing, so a pro poker player can spot a fake deal, shuffle, etc., as he has become an expert by constant observation of standard casino shuffling and dealing.

For example, if a dealer in a casino were to grip the cards in the Erdnase grip for dealing, then a pro poker player would find that strange, even if he did not have a clue about the Erdnase grip. Mere suspicion would stop him playing.

Some of the pro poker players, know some moves but some, and I would say most of them, know little about the art of cheating. Few of them can do any moves, even if they know them. There are some who are very good cardicians and could cheat, but I know none who do.

In 40 years I have only known one pro card cheat. When I say pro card cheat, I mean a person who did it for a living with great skill. I have known guys who have gone out in a team and put in a cold decks and others who have used marked cards, etc. These guys had little skill and would find a sucker who your grandmother could cheat. They were more con men than card men, as they would use any kind of con game to get the money. They would use the trust of the victim rather than skill.

The one pro card man I did know was the best cardician I have ever seen. He gave up card cheating at an early age and went into fixing horse races and made a fortune. He said there is a limit on how much money that can be won at the card table, but in horse racing it was limitless.

Despite the lack of cheating I have seen, I do not think you need great skill to cheat at the card table. I am sure that one who had the Erdnase book and learnt those skills could become a card cheat; moreover, I think all those skills would not be required. Doc I believe has these skills and more, and I judge that from what I have read and seen here.

Tonto as one poker player to another, I think you should take into account, if you have not done so, the following:

That a cheat unlike a magician does not say watch my hands they are faster than the eye. He cheats when no one suspects. His job is easier, in that respect, than that of the magician.

A magician will create misdirection, as all the spectators have fixed there concentration on him, but the card cheat can have the advantage of making a move under the cover of natural distractions that occur at the card table. Remember that players have their minds on the game they cannot think of two things at the same time. Most will look out for cheating but are not expecting it.

The cheat also can pick the place where he wants to cheat. He does not have to play with fast company, likely to be found in Vegas casinos and card clubs.

He can choose a different method for different company. That is he will not need a sledgehammer to crack a nut. In cheating, like magic, the best way to do a trick is by the easiest method.

Also I think that even being one of the greatest cardicians would not guarantee protection from being cheated by one of lesser skill. In other words it is one thing to do it but a different thing to be able to spot it being done.

I think nothing convinces a pro poker player that no cheating is going on more than him seeing a casino procedure shuffle cut and deal. As I have said, I am not a great cardician but I can beat this procedure. I would be confident that a pro poker player could not detect it.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 27, 2004 12:08PM)
Great post, Tommy. Thanks.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: GuardT34 (Jul 27, 2004 12:20PM)
You have to remember Doc said he plays with blacks. I'm sure he plays with other people but mainly blacks, hustlers, drug dealer types, etc. Not to say blacks are dumb and couldn't be fast company, but as Doc stated they don't normally play with chips as white people do. They play with real cash on the table.

Doc doesn't play in Casino environments is another thing; his forte is private gaming, or as he put it "a hole in the wall". So you can rule out casino dealing procedures and conspicuous play.

You also forgot that he mentioned he doesn't play those type of games you would expect fast company to be in. He plays games like Tonk, Rummy, though I'm sure he has played Poker.

I was also fortunate to view Doc's cold deck switches over at Cardshark where they were briefly displayed until he got banned because of his tell it like it is attitude, LOL. I asked Igor why he got booted, and he said people were complaining to him, they couldn't handle him. ;) Heh, anyway to the cold deck...

If he actually is kind enough to show you his cold deck this will blow your mind away. That is his specialty. Sure some of you guys didn't like his bottom deal or claim some of his moves were suspicious, but he said he doesn't bother with those moves anymore. His cold deck moves is proof of that. They are awesome.

I'm kind of defending Doc here, because he's cool, people.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 27, 2004 12:41PM)
When I was a kid a young black guy came to my town. He had a big mouth and got up a lot people's noses. They called him the "Louisville Lip", and he went on to become the greatest, as he had told us he would.

Now would it not be good if Doc turned out to be greatest cardsharp ever. Before he gets a bigger head than he already has, I am not saying he is. But I like to think he might be.

A bit of lip never killed anyone, and it livens the place up.
Message: Posted by: tonto (Jul 27, 2004 01:55PM)
Paul H. names several gambling experts who have bestowed their accreditation on Doc. I did recognize one of the names, Jason England.

A poker playing acquaintance invited me to view a DVD of a film entitled "Shade". I believe that Mr. England was associated with the film. Other than some fancy card handling, nothing in the film resembled reality. Although I found it entertaining, the gambling scenes were unreal. There were countless errors, prohibited string bets, violations of table stakes protocol, misnomers; it was pure nonsense. If Mr. England had anything to do with the making of the film, he is certainly not a gambling expert.

In his post Doc refers me to Expert at the Card Table, a book that I have great difficulty in understanding.

However, in the first chapter of the book, on page 13, the author addresses some remarks to people who were the gambling expose artists of his day. Speaking of the ruses they revealed, the author remarked: "Even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in no wise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned."

To avoid a distracting dispute, I will tentatively agree that Doc is a dishonest gambler, but I find it difficult to buy his tales without question. His posts invite questions, and his refusal to answer questions taints his credibility.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Jul 27, 2004 04:01PM)

I believe the movie Shade was constructed for the benefit of the average audience member wanting to see a dramatic play rather than a accurate portrayal of poker gaming procedures. Jason England has said so in past posts and to me in our infrequent e-mailings.

I would consider Jason England a gambling expert. If he is not, I would wager he is as close as one could be without being so.

This reminds me. I have to mail something out. Doh!
Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (Jul 27, 2004 04:06PM)
On 2004-07-27 14:55, tonto wrote:
Other than some fancy card handling, nothing in the film resembled reality. Although I found it entertaining, the gambling scenes were unreal. There were countless errors, prohibited string bets, violations of table stakes protocol, misnomers; it was pure nonsense. If Mr. England had anything to do with the making of the film, he is certainly not a gambling expert.


If you want to learn gambling material, you have to pay attention to detail; it's not an option, it's a requirement.

First homework assignment: watch the extra features of SHADE. They discuss how they knew they were doing this.

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 27, 2004 04:08PM)
On 2004-07-27 14:55, Tonto wrote:

Paul H. names several gambling experts who have bestowed their accreditation on Doc. I did recognize one of the names, Jason England.

A poker playing acquaintance invited me to view a DVD of a film entitled "Shade". I believe that Mr. England was associated with the film. Other than some fancy card handling, nothing in the film resembled reality. Although I found it entertaining, the gambling scenes were unreal. There were countless errors, prohibited string bets, violations of table stakes protocol, misnomers; it was pure nonsense. If Mr. England had anything to do with the making of the film, he is certainly not a gambling expert.


I'm going to jump in here even though it's pointless, as most people are thinking the same thing. It saves Jason wasting his time posting (so he can answer my question on the Forte topic. Hah!)


It's hollywood. Who cares?

This is a place where cheaters deal four aces to themselves every hand and do fancy card moves and flourishes and still no one suspects them as cheaters. lol

Thanks. :)

Message: Posted by: corpmagi (Jul 27, 2004 04:51PM)
Tonto, While England, Wimhurst, Wilson, etc. are not professional card cheats; they are very serious students of gambling, professional (casino) or otherwise.

I would listen to what they have to say very carefully. Several of these guys have met DOC face to face. I'm sure they can tell, with more than a fair share of certainty, who the real deal is and who's not.
Message: Posted by: GuardT34 (Jul 27, 2004 06:01PM)
On 2004-07-27 14:55, Tonto wrote:
In his post Doc refers me to Expert at the Card Table, a book that I have great difficulty in understanding.

However, in the first chapter of the book, on page 13, the author addresses some remarks to people who were the gambling expose artists of his day. Speaking of the ruses they revealed the author remarked: "...even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in no wise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned."

To avoid a distracting dispute, I will tentatively agree that Doc is a dishonest gambler, but I find it difficult to buy his tales without question. His posts invite questions, and his refusal to answer questions taints his credibility.

Tonto, you said string bets and total mis-procedures, again as I wrote to Tommy, now while this was just a movie, this was a PRIVATE game, not open to the same rules as Casino dealing.

Every private game varies in their rules. Even Erdnase once wrote about it on page 33 on Ordinary methods of stocking, locating and securing. But the general understanding is that the whole deck must be tampered with before the shuffle begins. If dalliance with the desk is allowed, and it is amazing how much of that sort of thing is permitted in some games, which Igor can attest to as well, from his observations on road gaming and testing out things.

Some people use cut cards, some don't. The more knowledgeable ones will use cut cards and even implement washing procedure before the actual shuffling begins.

Now on with hustling...Since when was it credible to be a hustler? Sure stealing is stealing, but I would consider card and dice cheating more noble because of deceptiveness, and the uninformed willingly giving over their money to them. That's the beauty of it all. As Igor put it best the card/dice cheat is a strategist.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jul 27, 2004 08:39PM)
Is there any gambling/cheating related resource which has been considered as "real" my the majority? It seems that we have this sceptisism going on. Who was Erdnase? Was Scott the real thing? Did Robert-Houdin ever even saw a greek in his life? Does Forte exist?

Does it really even matter? Even if someone is not a professional cheater or, if we extend this a bit, a magician, does it mean they cannot come up with something useful? If it works, use it.

I do agree it is a nice past time to discuss these issues and to seek some validity to the text etc. But I am just so bloody tired to always see the same posts over and over again. Who did what? And did he really do it? Really? When the fact is none, or at least most, have no idea whatsoever. I don't know if Doc is even black or not, I have never met him. But it does not concern me. Are the things that he tells useful. For me they are, I found his notes on second dealing to be helpful. I found David Britland's and Gazzo's book on Scott to be helpful too. And I can't verify the existance of any of those guys,. I have never met them nor have one of those who I trust.

The point: can we stick with questions and answers relating cards and dice, not the credibility of other people. You say something, I say something, and hopefully some one will come up with a very good answer that we can all use for our benefits.

BTW, a cheat is a thief. There's no way around it. Nothing more than the person selling you boxes of rocks as televisions or the guy who prints money with his computer. That is my take on it and when I cheat and lie there is nothing noble about it.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 27, 2004 11:41PM)
Hey ya'll I'm back home at my computer and I will be answering many of ya'll questions.

Tonto please keep writing and the way you're writing, I have no problem with it. I think it stir things up and get's everybody talking including me. This is why I previously stopped, a teacher can't teach if he doesn't have students who won't say anything or challenge's the teacher or his credibility.

Each student has to be taught differently and talked to differently. This means that I don't care how any of you talk to me or at me; I can defend myself in both areas quite well like I know the rest of you can.

How can we learn and inspire if no one wants to step up to the mike (microphone). We're not fighting, we're just voicing our opinions out loud in which we all have a right to do and if we don't agree with each other so what; this is what makes the world go around and because of us talking mess is why new comers are flocking here.

As Arnold would say, "I'll Be Back" So let the fun begin.

If you think that Dr. Phil tells it like it is, wait until you get a load of me.


The Doctor
Message: Posted by: Michael Jay (Jul 28, 2004 02:17PM)
On 2004-05-01 19:27, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
It's a nice literary pose.

Much like Mrs Mary Shelly wrote 'Frankenstein' under as Anonymous.

As to the veracity of ANY competent cheat writing ANYTHING about what they do... please... that is just too funny. Have you noticed that even the reformed hackers never write about exactly how their old code worked, and instead just use vague metaphors like 'virus' and 'trojan' and 'worm'. So it is, and so it was. The folks who write exposes are almost always wannabes. Not that what they write is anything less than entertaining and perhaps thought provoking... just less than exact and accurate in terms of how the stuff REALLY happens.

So, who else suspects 'expert at the card table' was written by a temperance leader writing from notes taken from confessions of broken gamblers?

I was just about to jump on board and argue this point, stating that S.W. Erdnase pretty much puts that idea to rest. Then DOC came on, issueing a challenge across the net, which really is no challenge at all. Pretty much like me saying I'm the toughest guy in the world and I'll prove it - try to beat me up. Well, you can't come through your computer...

And, I can't for the life of me accept that an admitted cheat is going to tell me who and where he is. Even on the outside chance, unless he's just down the street, I can't travel across the country just to (supposedly) lose all my money.

Sorry, DOC, I was on your side up to then. Best wishes anyway.

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 28, 2004 03:03PM)
Does Forte exist?

Did I read that right, Pekka? Ha?
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jul 28, 2004 06:04PM)
I have never met him. So I really do not know?

Come to think about it, I know very little.
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 28, 2004 06:11PM)
Can anyone tell me where I can buy the book "Expert at the Dice Table" by Etrofs?
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 28, 2004 06:26PM)
On 2004-07-28 19:04, Pekka wrote:
I have never met him. So I really do not know?

Come to think about it, I know very little.

He has some videos out.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jul 28, 2004 06:48PM)
Kukram, it was a philosophical joke toward all this skepticism we have here. Of course, I know Steve Forte, by reputation that is.

Good one, Slakk. If you find two copies, get one for me.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 28, 2004 06:59PM)
OK, it's about 1 in the morning here, so it went over my head.

Need to sleep, I guess. :)
Message: Posted by: tonto (Jul 28, 2004 10:39PM)
I am chagrined by the vacillation and lack of conviction displayed here since I began posting questions for Doc. It seems that the majority of participants in this thread are currying Doc's favor while trying to appear objective.

Doc himself has stated that he wants to answer questions, so let us proceed. The following is directed to Doc:


I am glad that you have decided to answer questions, however, I see no answers. Check out the questions posted by Yussel, Slakk and me.

Thank you.


I respectfully ask that everyone refrain from speaking on behalf of Doc. He appears to be capable of understanding and answering questions, and only he knows the answers!
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 29, 2004 02:33AM)
Andrew Wimhurst,

I will say, though, that the stones required to move in a game are highly overrated.


I definitely agreeÖIMO, having the guts to cheat at cards is not that big a thing. It's like anything else. You get nervous at first. If you move and you get away with it the more confident you get. It's when you get caught that's the problem.

I Want This Book

So there's a book Expert at the Dice Table? Wow, now that's what I'm looking for. I hope that this book is more informative than Scarne on Dice---meaning only that I hope it shows you how to actually build.

Iím Not A Consultant Iím a Hustler Who Just Stops By

I couldn't write to you all, because I was in the process of being taught by a clever dice mechanic of how to build only after I showed him my ability to switch dice as you all have seen. All he could do was keep looking and laughing as he watched me pick up the white dice while examining them and then placing down the red ones. After I told him that I wanted to learn how to build he exchanged his building technique and knowledge for my punch and my knowledge.

Note: This hustler was an excellent bump second dealer but got busted while cheating a guy after the sucker saw the nail marks in the cards. My friend gave the guy all of his money back and the crew left with no problems.

Why didnít anything happen? Would you want to fight four big guys by yourself and not knowing if they have guns or not? I wouldnít, and the hustlers are not into just taking people money because they never know when they are going to meet up with this guy again.

Back to the Punch Story

My friends told him that the guy wouldnít have seen my punch work, and he laughed saying sure. When I did arrive in ATL and we met, he apologized after seeing my work.

I really like this hustler, because heís very smart and knowledgeable about a lot of things that I donít know anything about. Itís one thing to know how to cheat, but itís another thing to have finesse while doing it. The gambling books that are published donít teach this, and this is why Iím teaching you without revealing the real stuff.

Why? Why? Why?

Why didnít he use a punch? He never even heard of one before, and heís 60 years old. What did he use? A filed-down pointed finger nail.

How did he get caught? His sitting angle was wrong, and the light from the light bulb reflected on the back of the cards showing this big indentation.

Note: This is why I said in one of my previous post: donít use the thumbtack even though it works, itís too big. This is why I also posted about Ricky Jayís punch that if a baby slid his knee across his bumped card he would have cut his knee. If you would have read my post on the punch deal, I asked what position should a hustler sit and no one answered.

Would you have known this if you were a professional at the bump? No. You only learn by your mistakes in our trade and this had never happen to him before, so the answer is no. He still doesnít know why he got caught because his second deal is perfect. I forgot to tell him now that Iím thinking about it.

We also learn when someone whoís better teaches us the finer points that theyíve learned through their experience. This is why I shut up and listen when a person such as Paul Chosse speaks; he has knowledge and experience we know nothing about. Paul didnít get old in the game being no fool; and you can bet your life on that.

One more thing should be noted. Since I was a magician like you all, I had the skill but no street smarts and experience to go with it. This is why Iím still learning it day by day as time goes on.

Now my friend knows that a punch exist and he will know that heís supposed to sit facing the light (if the light is on the side of a wall) especially if heís playing with cards that has a smooth-finish.

Am I A Cheat

By reading my post about punch work, any person who does punch work knows that I know what Iím talking about and can well read that Iím the real thing.

Sheriffís At the Dice Table

My friend who deals the bump is also a dice mechanic. While he was at the dice table (in Huntsville Alabama) beating another guy, three white sheriffs came over to see what was going on. These sheriffs asked whose money is this (pointing at the players' money), and one of the players said "It's mine", and then he asked whose money is this and the other player said "Mine". Then the sheriff asked who's cutting the game and they both said, "No one, we're just betting each other", and the officers left.

I was told by the hustler playing that if there was someone cutting the game, that individual would have been arrested and the stuff taken, but since this was not the issue, the sheriffs did nothing and told them to continue playing. They laughed and asked about Three-Card Monte, but none of us did it for them because even though we were able to do it, this was not our specialty.

Why the sheriff was a Butt-Head

The sheriff seemed to be of a high rank, and to all of us hustling he was trying to impress the white rookie that was with him that he was big and important. On the Down-Low, we know that that rookie will be his boss in a couple of months (LOL) and heíll be back to being a butt-kisser with no one to impress;

Facts About Me Being Where I say I Was

The bike race was in Huntsville Alabama off of Jordan Lane; 44,000 people attended this race on Saturday. There were officers posted all around the place, and in the field.

Admission was $25 per person and the armbands were yellow. There was a ramp going over the runway to the area where the concession stands were. The first concession stand sold smoked Turkey wings, the second sold everything. The officers had on grey Tee Shirts with an emblem of a gold shield on their chest.

Friday night the bikers were on Polaski Pike Drive close to an old Elks club off of University Drive (72). Sunday it rained after 2:00 P.M. and stopped, and the sun came back out. There was way less people there on Sunday then there were on Saturday.
We stayed at the Residence Inn off of Research Drive at the beginning of Madison County.

Those who think that Iím lying, check these facts...


P.S. How can I tell you about an incident that didnít happen until tomorrow? Huh? I can tell you where Iím at because about the time you get there I would have been gone.
Iím not dangerous. Iím scared. This is why Iíd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6.


On page 122 of the Britland/Gazzo book, "Phantoms of the Card Table", Britland wrote, "The highest compliment of all was paid by gambling expert Tony Giorgio, who some years later, wrote in Genii, 'There are several magicians who use punched cards in gambling demonstrations, but I've never seen anyone who can compete with Gazzo.'"

Have you met Giorgio, or read any of his articles? He seems really to know the score.


If Gazzo is the best, I tip my hat off to him. I'm not in competition with Gazzo, I'm trying to get the money. I do like Jack Pyleís demonstration of the punch deal better than I like Ed Marloís. Note: I liked Ed Marlo's until I saw Jack Pyle do it.

To answer your other question. No, I haven't read any of Giorgio's stuff although if someone had these notes I wouldn't mind looking at them. I believe it's better to have then to have not.

Are you a punch deal expert? Even if you're not, read my post on the punch deal and answer all my questions from the notes that you got from this Giorgio fella and Iíll tell you his qualifications on evaluating a punch. Punch or bump dealers come a dime a dozen.
I'm Going to Toot My Horn?

I gave certain individuals my punch because I liked them, but I've fooled everyone that I gave them to with my work the first time they saw it. I'm going on record to-date and saying that if Giorgio liked Gazzo's work, he'd love mine.

Regarding Gazzo's punch I could care less. Why? When Gazzo was coming around Reubin's in the early 1990's showing his punch work everyone always told me that my work was smaller than his then so why should I care about it now when mine is even smaller.

Gazzo is a magician who became good friends with Walter and even though he might have shown him stuff, Gazzo wasn't a gambler so he took what he learned and ran with it. I on the other hand advanced his knowledge just by reading and experimenting with it because Iím a perfectionist and I learned by working with many needles that sometimes my hole was smaller than other times. This opened my eyes to the fact that Walterís punch could be improved upon in which I did.

How I Invented My Dice Switcher

Iím a perfectionist and by watching Steveís video on dice and dice switching I asked myself how could I improve on Steveís moves and make them better. I said to totally make it disappear. From that point on I studied all holdouts, Topit included and those that I liked I combined together as one. Then I searched for all devices which could hold dices including the universal hold out which is okay for making things disappear but you couldnít bring it back and then I found something lying on the floor in Wal-mart. I asked a worker what was this that I found and they told me what it was and from that point on I kept advancing.

My dice switcher is the best in the world at this moment because Iíve seen the best and mine run rings around it. The only way mine can be improved upon is if your hand had a mouth that opened and closed or if it totally disappeared by using sorcery; now how strong is that?

I said all that to say this, if technology gets better my punch will get better and if I had money to burn I would buy all holdouts to experiment with and re-invent my device until I was totally satisfied. Until that day comes, this what Iím already working with will have to do.

The Doctor
Message: Posted by: Metalepsis (Jul 29, 2004 08:30AM)
Sometimes it is difficult to determine who is speaking loosely and who is answering questions tightly. The answers to my questions/posts are regularly not accessible. I have found this thread informative and knowledgeable.

Though there is a lot of discord here, sort of a overabundance of ideas, there are a few linguistic-numerical ways of sorting this thread into something tangible. There are ways of coming to terms and overstating this material.

There are gems in this thread ,and I value that. I am tired of all the challenging and egotism, so I often post my little comment and just lurk. Clearly, I am an idiot, who knows nothing of this world.

This is a thread on cheating. Anyone with enough experience to join the Cafť should be welcomed. Sadly this topic disturbs many people in many ways. I suggest morals and egos be left behind, and the technical discussions be pursued. I do not care any longer who is the real thing. I do not want evidence of where Doc has been nor proof of anyone's skills, just a healthy debate. I know, I know, it can never happen.


To think I come here to relax and get away from ZKP.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jul 29, 2004 10:01AM)
Amen M.

Now for a question for the rest of us lurkers. What gambling games do you play? (Not what can be played but what you have really played for money cards, dice, coins, anything.)

I have only gambled with poker in private games and casino games. I have never put money on dice. Why? Because there are no dice games in Finland. Even the casinos don't have craps or anything. Draw poker, Hold 'em and five-card stud are the main gambling games as well as the normal casino games, roulette, black jack, fast poker, and red dog.

So what do you play?
Message: Posted by: Metalepsis (Jul 29, 2004 10:17AM)
Texas Hold Em, Omaha Hold Em, Seven Card Stud, Truc or Trucco, Spades (though not many Scots play this), Craps, and oddly Liars Dice and Perudo.

I find Hold 'Em games have interesting aspects to the cheating. Certainly any flush you cull must be nut since if there's one there's often two or more in hold em. If you are controlling every card into every hand then this isn't a problem (maybe you do but I don't), but you need to be sure you can beat those other flushes. I also find this the easiest since you are likely to get other players in on the hand this way (nothing like dealing bad hands to other players to kill the action).

Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 29, 2004 11:07AM)
In Hold 'Em games, I would rather know what was going to drop on the turn and the river than to deal a partner a pair of Aces in the hole. This means you have to control three cards together, to a number in the deck, the number depending on the number of players. The three cards being the turn, the burn, and the river. This knowledge will not make your partner a winning hand, but it will make him a winner.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Jul 29, 2004 11:46AM)
But then again, by giving your partner an Ace you can truly boost his probabilities. Someone can give the correct answer because I am not sure but I think it is 12% better chance to win when you hold an ace.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 29, 2004 01:49PM)
Just giving your partner an Ace might help. It depends what the other guys have and what hits the table. But you are right it will help to get more than your fair share of aces. How anyone could work a percentage out as to the advantage without knowing what the other cards are is beyond me. An Ace becomes more powerful the fewer the players. Heads up a few odd aces would soon get the money.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 29, 2004 04:12PM)

I've been studying your dice switch and the mechanics involved. You have tipped enough for anyone interested in the move to work out their own device, based on your work.

Frankly, if I were you, I wouldn't even show it to anybody. Your clip show way too much, for someone with experience to duplicate your effect.

But since you have already done so, I would like to comment on it.

There are many devices that make an object disappear completely, but none to make it reappear again. Yours solves this and it is very clearly, I would say, integrated to your personality and your body language. You use it with a nice choreography and beautiful misdirection.

I believe the movement I spotted in the switch would go unnoticed if you don't perform the move more than twice for the same audience. For a further improvement upon your switch, I'm currently working on the elimination of this tell.

I hope I didn't expose anything. Anyway, if you don't know what to look for you won't see it even if you stare at it.

Your student
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 29, 2004 07:29PM)
Scarne would tell you to look for the door. I would tell you to not play when he deals, just fold your hand. This rule applies to anyone who you think is cheating. How can they cheat you when you are not playing on their deal unless you got cold decked?

Tony Mouley Taught Me Something May He Rest In Peace

A magician friend of mine who used to work for the Desert Inn in ****since 1959 told me after I saw him dealing seconds in Reubinís half way across the room, that out of all the hustlerís he met in his lifetime that he would rate me amongst the top 20. I had one problem.

Note: I spotted Tony dealing seconds across the room because of what Darwin taught me in his book Gambling Scams. Tony dealt a beautiful push off second but his thumb left off of the card every time he dealt regular but stayed flat when he did a second. This is a tale-tell sign.

I have friends that cheat from all nationalities but they never invite me to win the money for them. They say that theyíre going to call me, but I know the reason they donít call even though I remain silent.

Tonto the Hankty Vic

The world of hustling is a small world and we all have to stick together if we know each other or not. Tonto youíre a Vic (victim, sucker) and itís our goal to break you. What kind of code of silence would we have if we kept telling suckers like you what to look for? Does this sound familiar? If you had read my post you would have found that out by now.

Steveís 4 Part GPS videos are excellent and to be straight forward with you the best on the market; but it was made for suckers only. Doc what are you saying? Iím saying that there is another level of cheating that is beyond your imagination. Jason, Paul, Darwin, Damien and Andrew can vouch for me on this. The deck handling that you saw in the movie Shade compared to what is actually out there is Toys R Us. If you think that you canít get robbed at them poker tournaments, you are sadly mistaken. You need to re-read my post on what I have seen on shuffle work.

If you learn all of Steveís moves and perfected it like he has you would be considered an expert by any who may watch you demonstrate gambling moves but now take all of this and play me or Steve or Paul and youíll get robbed. You have to know how to apply it and how to counter act it.

Doc and The Mechanic

As my friends picked me up to go to Huntsville for the weekend I met this mechanic who introduced himself to me and I to him. After driving a while a conversation was started and this hustler stated to me (about the movie Shade), why is these guys (he was talking about Jason, Damien etc) giving up all this knowledge about the game (hustling game)? I said, theyíre not giving up the hustling game your hustling game is just a little weak thatís all.

I know I probably got him upset with this statement so I quickly said, that I could show you better than I can tell you. I then took out my laptop and started showing him Damien and I at the Atlantic City Premier then I clicked over to my dice switching video and after viewing it, he said you could rob a casino with that move. I then showed him parts of Steveís 4 Part GPS series in which he was amazed while driving to Huntsville.

Then my other friends told him this is the guy who we told you about that the guy wouldnít have seen his bump. The hustler after hearing this handed me a playing card and as I touched the card between my thumb and index finger (hitting the card) I said what is this? He said I want you to bump this for me so I can see it. I said, I donít need to, he said why not, I said because I already did. My friends started laughing. He said, I mean this card. I said I know exactly what you meant check out the card. He said I donít feel anything. I then told him not to feel in the normal position in which he hits the card and then when he started feeling around the card he said I feel it.

He then turned on the above car light and looked at the front of the card and didnít see any indentation mark so he felt the back of the card placing his finger on the exact position and looked at the front of the card and said this s*** is unbelievable, you would have robbed me with this move. My friends started laughing and said we told you so and guess what? Weíve been with him now going on 4 years and he hasnít shown any of us how he makes it. So donít even think about asking him how he makes it because he wonít tell you.

I did show this guy the move because I liked him like that. He was good at everything he did to the best of the knowledge that he had access to; and no he wasnít at any of yaíllís level as far as bottom nor middle dealing but he had unsurpassed experience in counter acting other players con on them and I needed this knowledge. After hearing me say that I wanted to learn how to build he said now I know I have something to trade with him for.

I havenít learned how to build yet and neither has he learned how to make my punch but we traded each other stuff and upon our next visit with each other in which will be real soon, he will teach me and I will teach him and I will videotape it.

God Came To Visit

During the quiet hours when we werenít playing or practicing? He said Doc, you know I donít like this lifestyle but this is all I know. I want to get back in to the bible because being a hustler is not what I want to end up being when I want to meet my maker. He said other things too but at that point I started teaching him the bible in terms of hustling and gambling moves. He said Doc I like how you explained it to me and I understand better now. I then I gave him some religious literature to read that I normally carry with me for those interested in the bible.

Every hustler, hit man, pool player, bank robber, singer, writer has had to advertise one time or another in their life.

Didnít you have to advertise yourself and your ability in order to get a job? Didnít you have to advertise in order to get into this poker tournament that youíre mentioning? Are you not advertising now because you need help?

My Suspicious Moves

You say that my move look suspicious? Have you ever stood in front of a video cam positioned on a table and try to do a move that requires you moving back and forth to pick up a pair of dice off the ground or table? I donít think so.

I believe that sometimes a person can be too smart for his own self and this is why a little knowledge is dangerous to some people.

Youíre just like one of them guys that a magician has to deal with in an audience thatís always trying to say, I saw that, and when the magician shows his hand you then say itís in that other hand, and after he shows that hand, you say itís up his sleeve and the person standing next to you say but he doesnít have any sleeves.


As far as me hyperboling, whatever that means, I think not. I think that yaíll have very boring lives. This stuff that I spoke of is not exciting to me at all. Exciting is when while we were driving back to ATL that night we almost hit a guy on the bridge who was helping another guy who got hit by a car while he (Iím guessing here) was changing his tire. The bridge was a two-lane bridge and a Tracker Trailer was right by our side. Whew that was a close call.

Funny is how a guy came to back to the gambling spot mad and upset because the houseman sent him to get two deck of cards when he didnít want to go and while he was coming back he ran into a deer in which messed up his car. All he kept saying is I told you I didnít want to go and get no d*** cards and now my whole car is messed up now. We went out and saw his car and it was messed up. LOL



P.S. Tonto weíre going to be in Louisville Kentucky this weekend for the Mike Tyson fight. Catch us if you can.
Message: Posted by: mattisdx (Jul 29, 2004 08:41PM)
There's a little bit of Steve in all of us. :crazydude:
Message: Posted by: balducci (Jul 29, 2004 09:54PM)
On 2004-07-28 19:11, slakk wrote:
Can anyone tell me where I can buy the book "Expert at the Dice Table" by Etrofs?

Lol. Did he really publish a book under the name Etrofs? That would be too funny, if only it were true.
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Jul 30, 2004 01:09PM)
Hi Doc, how are you?
I'm planning on buying one of the forte tapes in the near future, just to see how good one can be with a deck of cards and maybe even learn something ;)
Along with it, I was thinking about buying this little book which seems very intersting:

Hand Mucking: The Art of Switching Cards in Play. Written by George Joseph (Las Vegas)

Have you read it, and want to share your opinions?
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Jul 30, 2004 03:40PM)

Every time you answer a question you write a small essay. I can collect all your posts categorize them and publish them as "Doc's collected wisdom".

Anyway, back to the drawing board...

As you say, when you see something for the first time and get fooled by it, you are utterly amazed. When you know the method, the psychological factor that makes the trick amazing dissapears. The only thing that stays, is the technical part and that is the part that is mostly getting scrutinized.

As you said, my knowledge in dice is non-existent. The only time that I pick up dice, is when I play backgammon and I'm playing only for fun.

My post about your switch, was not about the actual switching mechanisms. This was not clear in my post, so I'll elaborate further.

Your palming is as good as it can gets. Nothing to be seen, even in frame by frame mode. Again when the switch is made, there is nothing to be seen. Flawless technique. Furthermore, I have no idea what kind of holdout you are using.

What I spotted in the video, after I watched it many times, is how you get into it and how you get out. How you get your holdout into play and how to get out clean. This is what I was talking about and I didn't want to expose. (Well, too strong a word to use when something is in plain view for everyobody to see). Everything written in my previous post, refer to this.

The tell I was talking about, is your left arm's movement. You do this movement, every time you turn your body to retrieve the dice from the holdout and when you do the switch, you arm straightens out again.

This is what I want to improve upon, teacher. Your palming, or your holdout is supreme. But this is not what is important to me. For palming, the information is out there for anyone interested to seek and learn. The holdout is tricky, in the sense that someone with no experience in mechanical devices will have difficulty in making one.

In my point of view this is what your video exposes, but again only in a pre-set environment. I understand well enough that you can use the same movement in a different way and according to the environmental set and situation.

Teacher, I'm offering my judgement of your technique to you, only because you've been kind enough to show it to me. Furthermore, I knew what to look for after you explained in your posts how you came up with your device.

I'm not a professional magician, neither a hustler (I gamble in card games occasionally though and cheat whenever I can). I practice magic and the card hustling techniques, just for the sheer fun and excitement I get out of it and the great love I've got for the art of deception.

This is why I'll never ask you to show me something just to see how it is done. I've got no use for gambling movements (my life and financial support don't depend on them), but I spent the time to learn them on my own, just for their own sake.

Like the punch work. I just like the concept for the sake of it. I practice it and I try to perfect it, just because it is there and not many people know how to use it. Your posts regarding punch work are supreme! You upgraded Scott's technique in a level higher than anybody before. Reading your posts, I've got all the rough information I need to duplicate your efforts. It will not be exactly as yours, but I know what to strive for. It will take time and lots of trial and error but I believe eventually I'll get it.

So teacher, my motives to learn something is because I enjoy it too much. To be honest with you I don't like teachers, because most of them have no idea how to teach something. That's why I like books. Because I can use my own creativity to learn something, based on another person's knowledge.

And that is why I think you have the qualities of a great teacher. You offer the tools, but you let the student to take the initiative and create for himself. You step in, only to correct mistakes and to orient the student in the correct direction.

In this regard, my search is on.

With the highest respect,

Your student


I bought this book from Joseph, after I read the Annotated Erdnase. Darwin Ortiz, refer the reader to Joseph's book quite a few times. And it seems the only book written on the subject.

It's a very informative book and explains in detail many techniques. And it's very cheap as well.

Joseph is also Greek and it was a pleasure for me to find out and support his business :)
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 30, 2004 04:02PM)
I have heard mixed reviews on the joseph book.

But as yiannis said, its cheap and there is probably something of interest in there.

Message: Posted by: tonto (Jul 30, 2004 06:13PM)

I searched your voluminous responses to my questions looking for clarification of your Alabama sheriff tale, but I found none.

According to the Huntsville,Alabama Sheriff's Department (whose telephone number I have previously posted), it is their policy to arrest all participants in illegal gambling games.

Obviously, there is a contradiction between the sheriffs' policy and the performance of their duty, at least according to your recollections of your encounter with officers of the Madison County Sheriff's Department.

I do not want to believe that you would fabricate a story just to enhance the mystique you have created; however, seemingly improbable stories suggest faulty memories, omitted facts or outright mendacity.

If you care to clarify the discrepancies I have pointed out, you will not only quench my thirst for knowledge, you will also further your ambitions and gain additional praise from your acolytes. They may even honor you with a PhD., and refer to you as "professor Doc".




Thank you for advising me to throw my hand away when the person I suspect of cheating deals the cards. Other than with cold decks, can I be cheated by any player other than the dealer?

You also stated that the only other way I could be cheated is by a cold deck. How does one know when a cold deck is being used?
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 30, 2004 06:29PM)
You spot the switch is the only way I suppose.

Or afterwards when a couple of players get nailed
Message: Posted by: DaveM (Jul 30, 2004 06:41PM)
Why is it SOOO unbelievable that corrupt cops could exist in lovely Alabama? Policmen/women are basically a mirror image of the society that they are sworn to protect. For the most part honest, but then there are some.......

I've met a few "shady" policemen in my day, and trust me they did some things a lot worse than "look the other way" during some street hustling.

Message: Posted by: GuardT34 (Jul 30, 2004 06:58PM)
Rounders anyone? :) Remember that bar with all the Sherrif deputys playing poker?

While it is illegal, in reality "few" could care less about some stupid ticket for illegal gambling, not like your out robbing no one or comiting acts of violence, kind of like white lies and black lies, their are somethings people will just say "who cares, lets play some cards!"

Heck Nixon was a poker player! Used winnings to finance his political campaigns.
Message: Posted by: Dexpert (Jul 30, 2004 07:48PM)
Talking of underground "work"..does anyone here know what a Pan deck is, how to obtain one, and what it is used for? I know the answer to all three questions but I just thought I would throw this out to see how many of you guys knew!
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 30, 2004 07:58PM)
Yes, its also known as the 'frying' deck in some underground circles.

I cant say anymore than that
Message: Posted by: KARDMECHANIC (Jul 30, 2004 07:59PM)
There are a LOT of crooked cops on my neigborhood. Just recently, one of these "officers" broke my friend's arm. This was done because he is notoriously known as being the son of big-time meth dealers. I think there are dirty cops everywhere in the world, especially in Tijuana.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 30, 2004 09:38PM)
Other than with cold decks, can I be cheated by any player other than the dealer?

Yes. You talked about the Movie Shade as being ridiculous but you didn't pay attention to details. Jamie Foxx got robbed on his deal likewise when you hand the deck to a person to cut at this point the switch can be done on you and you can deal yourself to the cleaners.

Why would you suspect that anything was wrong when it was you who dealt the cards? This is what the movie Shade was all about, the ultimate con.

This is the reason why the cold deck move is the most power fullest move in gambling and why I'm reluctant to show ya'll even one of them and why this move has legendary status to the world of gambling and why the magicians want to see it and expose it to the world for their gain; greed is a bitch.

The hustler's don't even want you to know that this move exist this is why you read these bulls*** write ups of a waitress coming to the table with drinks and taking one deck while exchanging it for another. This is all con so when the real stuff whacks you upside your head you won't even know what hit you. You would've just been robbed.

When at the table with a real professional your only hope of winning is not to play at all. Why? Because each cheat has a specialty and the guy you're playing may be a shuffle specialist. If he is a shuffle specialist that means no matter how much you look at what he's doing you will never see anything. I've experienced this already; I know what I'm talking about.

This is why my teacher taught me to be patient and wait, he said Doc this is why I'm teaching you not to play poker you play cold deck why? Because there can be someone who can shuffle or deal out of site and you won't be able to spot it so to play it safe like I told you Tonto, don't play on anyone else's deal except yours and for me on the sucker's deal who I've just cold decked.

If they knock it down once or twice because someone knows what's going on, THEY ARE NOT PLAYING YOUR GAME BUT IF THEY GO FOR IT, YOU CAN BET THE WHOLE UNITED STATES BECAUSE YOU CAN'T LOSE. Check out Ocean's 11 for this scenario.

You could be the only sucker at the table with a team of cheats like the movie Shade and on your deal, deal yourself to the cleaners. All one of the players may have to do after you have shuffled the deck and placed it down for the back man to cut is for the first player to tap you; while you look to see what he wants you have been mis-directed from looking at the deck and now that move has been done. Note: For this scenario watch Steve's promo tape at the black jack table.

Tonto to answer your last question about how would you know if a cold deck is used I can only give you illustrations to help you out. You would have to purchase The Sting, Ocean's 11 and the movie Shade to see how strong the move is and how much money you can gain from one solid move like this or lose if you're a vic. This move is so strong that you can't even blame the dealer on this play because he didn't know it was switched in on him either.

You would have to purchase Steve Forte's 3rd tape of his 4 part Gambling Protection Series to see how he does his Cold Deck moves and after watching that, you would have to purchase Darwin Ortiz's Cheating at Cards, George Joseph's Cheating at Poker, Black Jack and Gin tapes in order to know exactly what to look for.

But on a sad note I'm sorry to tell you that I know about 28 different cold deck moves so the three that you will witness in these videos/ movies are eye candy and now obsolete to me. If you encountered a cold deck from me, you wouldn't know what to look for.

Note: I will post some of my cold deck moves but please do me a favor and look at it only once and see if it would have gotten over on you. To all reading this, I say the same to you before ya'll start critiquing my move in order to see if it's excellent or not.

If I show only one cold deck move that you never knew existed I would get great reviews no matter which one I performed for ya'll, but if I start showing two, three, four or five cold deck moves youíre gonna start evaluating and critiquing which one is better and I know that if I only showed you one that I wouldnít hear this mess that yaíll magicians are about to dish at me. Sometimes silence is golden, This is why Iím so reluctant to post them; you talk too much sometimes and don't know what to say out of your mouth. You see what Yiannis did regarding the best dice move in the country maybe world.

The voices you will hear in the background talking on my video will be that of Steve Forte, Sal Piacente and a used to be hustler whose name I will not reveal complimenting me on my moves. If the best tell me that I'm doing something better than anyone he ever saw, I need no other validation of my expertise.

Back To Tonto

Tonto why do you find it so hard to believe that officer's who uphold the law are nice people and like to have fun too? Why would officer's who are having fun at an event like everybody else want to arrest two guys playing dice on a picnic pull out table with kegs of soda as a backboard and spend the rest of the day doing paper work and miss hanging out with their colleagues.

Tonto the police can arrest you for J-walking but they don't, lighten up a bit. Have you ever thought that these guys gamble too when off duty? Those who gamble have a better understanding then those who don't. I know officer's gamble because a sergeant hired me to beat some of his associates here in New York a long time ago. Did you not see the movie "Rounders?" Officers were playing cards then in the movie.

People need money Tonto, we are not well off like you might be therefore greed enters our heart and we do what we have to in order to get money. If you were broke and really needed money and you knew that your club members could stand to lose a few hundred thousand or million, you would be calling me quick to come and get it for you.

You are in no way stupid because by you being here at this forum and asking around, you are trying to protect your money because you don't want to be broke. White's go crazy when they get broke, blacks are used to it. I'm just stating the facts ya'll don't get upset with me.

I know that all whites are not rich and some are poor like we are but this is how us blacks see it from our point of view; not that we're right in our evaluation. The grass always look greener from the other side this is why I made this statement.

Tonto you are trying to out smart the other poker players into winning their money with strategy and the like but in all actuality youíre cheating too. Knowledge about things that another player knows nothing about is cheating or in other words and edge or advantage playing. Cardsharps advantage playing is card manipulation and this is wrong. There may be different levels to the wrongness but all is still wrong. This is why gambling at all levels is a sin and sin is the transgression of the law and punishable by death.

Tonto not all people are straightforward and think like you and since money is their god and they will do anything to get more youíre a potential vic. Everyone has their reason for doing what they're doing and even though it may be wrong you always have to stay ahead of the game and this is what you're doing by coming here and possibly wanting to pay for lessons or pay to see what to look out for.

For the Record Tonto, I can show you at least 100 moves to look out for and still don't show you how to protect yourself from a professional cheat so now you have to look out for me. After paying me you would leave being satisfied that you learned a lot in which you would but not the best stuff, we have to keep this under wrap besides, I might be telling you the truth that I donít know anymore then I have taught you what would you say then? You'll never know.

Your only partial safeguard is to team up with someone and have them beat these suckers for you and you splitting half with them on the take. A cheat's goal is to get in on a piece of the action and as long as you wish to gamble and win, he will know he would get his end of the money.

Think about this? Why would I let you pay me $25,000 to teach you how to protect yourself and then let you go make millions with the knowledge I imparted to you. I know if thereís a million dollars out there and you want it and you canít get it, you will seek until you find a way to get it and if you canít find a way on your own you would then hire a cheat like myself to get it for you.

If you think that I'm lying and making this stuff up make some of these professionals here an offer of half and watch them come out of retirement. Why? Because everybody always need a little bit more money just in case. Youíll be surprised of the gentlemen who you think are retired; they are until that right money figure starts dangling over their head and watch the retiree get his crew together or himself into shape to get that money for you.

One more thing to think about Tonto. How do you know that one of your friends at the country club didnít hire this guy who you think is cheating to come in and cheat for him because of his financial lost. Iím telling you, you might think you know someone and how they get their money but you really donít and you donít know what theyíll do to get out of the hole.

When gambling for money, you canít trust anyone because money is the root of all evil.

Nice Talking To You


P.S. Story Time

Once when my teacher was going from town to town hustling card games, he told me that while playing in a poker game a Jap-wise hustler started complaining that something was wrong when he lost a big poker pot (in which he was right this time). The houseman who got cold decked defended my partner with all he knew to be right.

The houseman who was playing said, I dealt these d*** cards Jerry, are you calling me a cheat huh? I lose my money just like you but I donít complain when I do. You never complain when you win but you always cry like a little b***** when you lose your money. You act like youíve got to win all the d*** time. F*** you Jerry, if you donít like how I run my poker game you can get the F*** out and never come back.

While mad and mumbling the houseman said every time this mother f**** lose he starts this same crying ****. He now turns to Billy after counting the poker pot and says sir donít pay any attention to him and I appreciate you coming and playing with us and please come again; excuse my language.

Billy said no problem sir. Hereís $100 dollars for you running a nice establishment and dealing me a beautiful hand like you did. The houseman said thank you and youíre welcomed to come back anytime you like.
Message: Posted by: J.Manninen (Jul 30, 2004 09:39PM)
I been reading this thread foooor a loong time now.. most interesting thread ever, thanks to doc!

I'm in hurry now, so this post is pointless, short, useless, crap.. maybe I come back later



theres my only gambling cheat video for you all to see.

Message: Posted by: KARDMECHANIC (Jul 30, 2004 11:08PM)
J. Manninen,

I enjoyed your bottom dealing demostration very much. It all flowed nice and smoothly. You didn't seem to hesitate when dealing the bottom cards. If you don't mind me asking, what technique are you using? It looks like you're holding the deck in Marlo's Master grip.
Thanks in advance.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 30, 2004 11:36PM)
Kardmechanic I call it the sucker or laymen grip but Frank Garcia calls it a relaxed form of the mechanic's grip.

For a perfect view of my handling see Frank Garcia's "How To Detect Crooked Gambling" page 150 or just ask anyone that's not a magician to deal out 5 cards and you'll see my grip or handling. I always try to look like the sucker.

Your Friend


P.S. Paul Wilson uses this handling in the footage of the Shade Movie.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 31, 2004 12:41AM)
Hi j manninen,

I also enjoyed your bottom deal and concur with KARDMECHANIC. As in my PM to you, the only awkward bit is the second finger tell, otherwise an outstanding job.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jul 31, 2004 12:57AM)
Tielie I have George Josephís Hand Mucking Pamphlet, it okay but Jasonís handling I feel is much better. Donít get me wrong this is a great study guide but Iím far past this stage in the game. But I will tell you though that you have to get to his stage in order to get to ours and one more thing, we all have Georgeís notes so what does that tell you.



The Doctor
Message: Posted by: J.Manninen (Jul 31, 2004 01:14AM)

I'm not familiar with marlos master grip cant say is it or is it not it

basically I hold the deck only with first finger, all other fingers are free.

and there is no push out (get ready) I just pull rhe card out with my right hand finger ( first or second depends what kinda deal I am doing ) its silent and you don't need to move your left hand fingers much

english isn't my speciality I'm sorry if you didn't understand anythign
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 31, 2004 03:43AM)
Hi J.Manninen,

How on earth to do get the bottom draw to be silent? I'm beginning to feel I'm the only one who struggles with the variable scrap and swish sound when drawing bottoms. Any tips greatfully appreciated. Either that or its a new thread in the secret sessions section!


Paul H
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Jul 31, 2004 08:14AM)
I enjoyed the part of the book "Phantoms of the Card Table" where Walter Scott describes how Joe Sinatra did the following: "Joe Sinatra is a "mouth". It helped him. he'd get everybody to laugh by saying a joke, that's why he beat everybody because while they are laughing he'd deal off the bottom. That was Joe's misdirection."

Maybe you get your bottom deal to be more silent by refining technique, and applying misdirection as above. Where will you be doing your bottom deal? In a church where it's silent? In a hall where lawyers are writing the the bar exam, and it's dead quiet? If you're talking about "demoing it" for magic buddies, and they know what to listen for, well, I guess you've told them what you're going to do and tipped them off already. If you're talking about using it in a trick for laypeople, hopefully you're in a room where there's chatter, airconditioning units, background music, etc to help cover the noise - and as long as your dealing visually appears natural you should be ok. If you're talking about using it in a game, might I suggest loading the jukebox up with quarters or putting on a fan or cracking a joke as above? And knowing where the closest exit is, just in case.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 31, 2004 08:29AM)
Do what I do in a game.

Have a ghetto blaster on the seat next to you and turn it on, on your deal.When you have finished your deal turn it off.

Also, when you deal the bottom to yourself, cough as loud as you can.They wont hear the B/deal as the cough will cover it.

Kukram :)

by the way,i was caught last night.I don't think I turned the music up loud enough :rotf:

p.p.s.-if someone says 'Hey, your cheating.you just dealt of the bottom.

You say' How dare you!- that was a center deal I'll have you know'.. :)
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Jul 31, 2004 08:40AM)
Thanks scarfidi7, I think! It would however, be nice to get the bottom deal to sound similar to the tops being dealt. I'll continue to work on it as always. 'The Phantoms of the Card Table' I've been holding off on this one but no longer. Yet another hit to the bank balance but still, all in a good cause.

Hi kukram, if you got caught then I fear I have little chance at the present time.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 31, 2004 08:52AM)
After a lot of trial and error regarding sound the best way to overcome it is this.

Its gonna sound obvious but this is how I went about it-

Take deck in hand.Deal the bottom in slow motion but exactly the same way you would dealing fast.

You are gonna hear the noise come from certain areas.

if you hold the deak in your left hand the noise will come from the long left side scraping.Deal in slow motion and try pulling the card off at different angles.You will find there is an angle of taking the card where it doesn't scrape.

Also I keep my fingers fairly straight so they don't push the card against the deck.Take the B/card with a light touch.Its difficult but practice will help.

So, to sum up.Do it slowly and change your hand positions and the angle which you remove the B/card.

When you have found it slowly build up speed.

You need to get the angle of taking the bottom card in your mucsle memory before you pick up speed or you will go back to the other way of doing it.

Try these tips.

Its all I can think of right now.

Kukram :)
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Jul 31, 2004 08:00PM)
On 2004-07-30 20:48, Dexpert wrote:
Talking of underground "work"..does anyone here know what a Pan deck is, how to obtain one, and what it is used for? I know the answer to all three questions but I just thought I would throw this out to see how many of you guys knew!


Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Jul 31, 2004 08:38PM)
On 2004-07-31 21:00, Paul Chosse wrote:
On 2004-07-30 20:48, Dexpert wrote:
Talking of underground "work"..does anyone here know what a Pan deck is, how to obtain one, and what it is used for? I know the answer to all three questions but I just thought I would throw this out to see how many of you guys knew!


Best, PSC
[/quote] Isn't that an Italian dish?
Message: Posted by: slakk (Jul 31, 2004 11:47PM)
I think it is spelldt Panguingue.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 1, 2004 07:00PM)
Doc if your there.

How's business?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 1, 2004 10:13PM)

Slow as usual.

You know I was just thinking, if I went to this Las Vegas magician's gala this Aug. 22 etc. what would these guys want to see me do? I only have three specialties and everything else is basically even with everybody else's move. Just thinking out loud here.

Message: Posted by: tonto (Aug 2, 2004 01:18AM)
Doc, I did not know about the convention, but I will be in Las Vegas from August 18 to August 30. If you decide to go this convention, You will have an opporunity to play Raz, draw, holdem and lowball in the different casino card rooms.

Most often, I play at the Mirage (table stakes holdem.) If you have the abilities you claim, you should have no difficulty winning large amounts of money. I know that from time to time all of the Vegas casinos catch cheaters, but I doubt that they all get caught.

Furthermore, you will not experience any discrimination. The players are not concerned with the color of peoples skin. Their only concern is the color of the players' money.

It would be a pleasure to see you work, and if you get away with winning by cheating, I will pay you for private instruction. Of course your fee would have to be reasonable. My lawyer charges me $400.00 an hour, and evertime I call him, it costs me at least $75.00 and all he does is write contracts.

If I can pay a lawyer $400.00 an hour, I can certainly afford to pay you comparable money for personal instruction.

However, I am from Missouri, you have to show me. You do not have to beat the table stake games. If I see you cheat a $5.00 limit game, its good enough for me. I just want to see you cheatem and beatum.

By the way, in cruising the Internet and reading books and articles, I have encountered certain terms with which I am not familiar. I would greatly appreciate your definitions and comments.

What is meant by these terms "the spread", "hand mucking", "watermellon punch" and "playing the cap." Also, I heard a Las Vegas holdem dealer state: "he threw off the b.r." He also talked about "using a submarine", is this another term for dealing from the bottom?

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 2, 2004 08:41AM)
On 2004-08-01 23:13, Unknown419 wrote:

Slow as usual.

You know I was just thinking, if I went to this Las Vegas magician's gala this Aug. 22 etc. what would these guys want to see me do? I only have three specialties and everything else is basically even with everybody else's move. Just thinking out loud here.


In Phantoms of the card table walter scott went to a convention and demo'd his dealing and magicians wern't that impressed.

I think because magicians expect a show, an act of somesort.

Thats why scotts performance wasn't that well recieved.

But I don't know about today's conventions.I have never been to one or any magic club or gathering.

There will be other members here who could give you a bet idea than me.Im sure there will be some there interested as there are many here at the Cafť.

But I'm sure there are many who would like to discuss moves and just talk about cheating in general


Message: Posted by: Tielie (Aug 2, 2004 10:04AM)
A little story by me:

I play darts for a hobby, and between games, me and some guys (5 or so) play a cardgame for maybe 5 euro's a night. I see this as an opportunity to see if my moves pass at a table. These guys know I can do stuff with cards so they watch me like a hawk. I didn't know they watched me like that, and I tried a bottomdeal once, to give myself an ace. Which makes me just about invincible in the game we play :)

One of the guys saw I did this and he said: "Tiel, just deal from the top will you?". I realised I been caught and said: "does it matter?"

He knew I dealt from the base, but was surprised by my responce. It didn't come up in his mind I might know what card was there, so I went free. He said: "just don't do it anymore". And on we went.

Lesson I learned that night: don't deal from the base with a worn deck. Just run up some cards, lot easier.

Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Aug 2, 2004 10:30AM)
Hi Tielie:
There's an old adage that says "if suspected, quit" or something to that effect. Erdnase, I believe.

The big problem with the scenario you just described is that you don't have your #1 cheating weapon available to you when you play with those guys - not bottom dealing, not hand mucking, etc, but rather the weapon of not being suspected. There's no point in really trying your skills in that environment, in my opinion.

The scenario you give and your response sounds similar to something mentioned in Arthur Buckley's "Card Control", so you're thinking like an old time pro!
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Aug 2, 2004 10:36AM)
I'm not in it for the money, just for fun. And I think there is no better environment for me to test my skills then with my buddies. I know they suspect, so if it passes them, I must be on to something. And second, I won't get beaten if I get caught. maybe they don't want me to play anymore, but I can live with that. They will have forgiven me in a week :)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 2, 2004 12:02PM)
Kukram I know that a bunch of people would come up to me and ask questions after the show but just like Walter Scott's demonstration wasn't well received, mine wouldn't be either and I know if I was in a game with them I would have won their money.

How can one prove that you just did a gambling move if the audience didn't see you when you done it? They can easily say that you're just saying that etc. Now when you say that you're going to demonstrate what you did, everybody is watching you like a hawk.

I need advice or I need to seek advice in this area.

Signed Just Thinking Out Loud

Message: Posted by: Tielie (Aug 2, 2004 12:13PM)
You are obviously an expert on the cold deck moves. You could switch decks with one card face up, and after the switch, show the backs of the cards have changed or something. I think many, many magicians would pay just to see you. I know I would.

DOC: I like to hear your opinion on the wonderfully talented Kif Chan.
This guy (www.kifchan.com) is the one of the best false dealers I have seen to this day but his technique seems very rushed and not what one would expect in a game. I would be suspicious if this guy dealt me my cards. He seems almost agressive when dealing, not relaxed. Would his technique arise suspicion you think?

This post is NOT to attack Kif Chan. He is way more skilled then I am but I am just wondering if this is useable cheating stuff.
Message: Posted by: Randy Sager (Aug 2, 2004 12:22PM)
Doc I think it is possiable you would run into the same problem that Walter Scott had. But by the same token if you were booked into a convention and the heads of the convention advertised it correctly I think it could work and no one would be dissapointed. Of if you were to just hang out at a convention and got into a small group that would maybe be the best bet at first. Let word of mouth spread and then see what happens.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 2, 2004 02:36PM)
Im sure that most would be happy to listen to your experiances as a real cheat and maybe a short demo.

And more so as your a black hustler as you have to work in different places to a white cheater as you say.

That would be of interest to many.

I said it before, about righting a book about your years of hustling.You could change names e.t.c that can't go public.

As with the Phantom book, I was more interested in the stories.Although I enjoyed forte's comments and the moves.I would have bought it without these.

As it was an exciting read.

Something to think about

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 2, 2004 03:45PM)
Fantasy World

Tielie thanks for writing and for the info.

I don't know what you're looking for in a deal like I keep telling everybody else here. If you don't like this guys deal then you wouldn't like mine either. Kif Chan does excellent work and the only two things that I see wrong and really they are not wrong is that he's standing and deals a little bit too fast.

He shows that he knows how to correct his speed problem because of what he shows on his video of second dealing which also is excellent. My evaluation of him standing would be wrong if he was a black jack dealer and my evaluationn of his speed could be wrong if that was his natural make up when he deals.

I've met laymen that deals indifferent and even shuffles backwards but once the onlooker gets used to that person's mannerism, it's never questioned again.

On a scale of 1 - 10, I give him a 10 in second and bottom dealing and as far as practicing wise, I would advise all to watch this guy and learn from him and Glenn Bishop's video(s) to further your gambling knowledge.

How would you rate him compared to yourself Doc? I would say overall that he's better as far as dealing because he does more deals than I but give me a week at the Greek Deal and I'll be dead even. I might only gain the lead because I can punch deal. But who's comparing who's better anyway, I don't care if he's better or not. My goal is to get the money, all a hustler wants to know is if the move can get the money.

Am I Exposing Anything

Many feel that I'm at this forum exposing when I'm not. As soon as I say something that you as a professional is familiar with, you automatically think that everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about and this is not true.

I'm only writing about things that's already exposed. If you check out Kif Chan you can see what will happen if other moves are given to magicians, they will expose it and think nothing of it for their fame. Look at what Daryl is about to do.

I also told ya'll that if a magician was shown the correct way of doing things that they'll learn how to do everything in about a months time and ya'll would be better than us.

Showing the Stuff

I care and then again I don't why? Even though I can learn just by watching, 9 out of 10 hustlers are not magicians, don't know what the Internet is and won't practice these moves to this level of expertise if they saw it. I take what I see and try to advance it for the application of card table artiface; most of these guys won't and the magicians won't so I'm rather safe at the moment.

Note: Ya'll magicians are too picky about everything and always find something wrong when someone does something. This is why the public is our audience and not you. You're the fast company that we have to avoid not the people whom we play with.

Your Friend


P.S. Give this guy his props.
Message: Posted by: Randy Sager (Aug 2, 2004 04:41PM)
That is for sure a lot of magicians can be too picky. Seems they see something that they can't find anything wrong with but find something to compalain about anyway. He Won't tip Or whatever they wan't to moan and groan about.

Not all of of us are like that however.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Aug 2, 2004 07:39PM)
By the way, in cruising the Internet and reading books and articles, I have encountered certain terms with which I am not familiar. I would greatly appreciate your definitions and comments. What is meant by these terms "the spread", "hand mucking", "watermellon punch" and "playing the cap." Also, I heard a Las Vegas holdíem dealer state: "he threw off the b.r." He also talked about "using a submarine", is this another term for dealing from the bottom?

Hand Mucking - holding out, palming...
The Spread - collusion with a partner, where one partner adds a card to the other partner's hand to make it a winner...
Submarine - a secret device like a hidden pocket, used for dumping cards or copping checks...

Obviously these are superficial descriptions. The actual move-by-move descriptions, and the blocking would require quite a bit more detail than I'm willing to go into here.

I can guess at the other terms, but I can't be sure without reading them in context - for instance the watermelon punch sounds like a pejorative for an obvious punch... Playing the cap could mean several different things that I can think of, and throwing off the b.r. has me completely thrown off...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: J.Manninen (Aug 2, 2004 09:40PM)
Question of second dealing to Doc.

strike or push off?
Message: Posted by: slakk (Aug 2, 2004 10:26PM)
According to the linguist, Robert Fatante, the watermelon punch was was made out of a piece copper in the shape of the end of a watermelon with a needle pushed through it, protruding slightly, to indent cards during play. The copper naturally turned green, like a watermelon, a term used in the South.

"Playing the cap" referred to capped dice.

"b.r." short for big roller "Throwing off the b.r." meant to separate the mark from his money.

"the spread", One of DV's favorites.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Aug 2, 2004 10:30PM)
JM, read the following:


It covers some of Doc's thoughts on the 2nd dealing
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 3, 2004 03:08AM)
Please don't misunderstand this post, because I have no doubt that Doc can do the various things he has mentioned. I would love to see them, myself. But I don't think the would work in most of the casinos in Las Vegas, because most of them use Bee brands or similar cards with emblems on the back, which he asked about in a previous post. He would have to figure out how to get hold of some of these that had not been canceled or cut. That would really complicate matters, since he does a lot of work that depends on cold decks.

If I have misunderstood something, I apologize.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 3, 2004 03:17AM)
Mr. Palmer thanks for writing. You are perfectly correct in your evaluation. I see that you're familiar with the casino environment of which I am not.

Thanks for your help and I appreciate it very much

Your New Friend


P.S. Hey I like that hat...Poof
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Aug 3, 2004 12:50PM)
Slakk, nice research. The Watermelon Punch is new to me. I was guessing it referred to a large bump, an obvious punch. And the "cap" reference could also refer to a discard move that is used when playing with a capped deck, but the capped dice explanation is good. That is why I said I needed to read the reference in context. "Capped" can apply to dice or cards... You're right about DV - he loved to talk about the Spread - in fact he postulated that Erdnase left it out of "The Expert" because he was still using it when he wrote the book, and didn't want to tip his best move...

Best, PSC

Forgive my ignorance, but what kind of site is Cardshark? I've never bothered to go there, should I? Anything that purports to be about cheating at cards, and is available to the general public, probably isn't worth reading, but then, I've been wrong before (I think...)

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 5, 2004 09:02AM)
Its a good place.worth joining.Has some knowlegable members
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 5, 2004 09:30AM)
Paul it's an excellent site on gambling. Sam Case is a member there.

Igor the moderator is pretty good at gambling moves and is a knowledgeable fellow. If I was you I would look into to it.

Your Student

Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Aug 5, 2004 09:33AM)
Thanks, Doc. I'll take a look, based on your reccomendation. How're things with you? Seen Rod lately? I tried to call him last week, I'm considering a trip to his town, but no answer. I'll call him again as the time draws near. Are you ever out that way? Maybe we'll run into one another...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 5, 2004 11:47AM)
I haven't seen Rod ever since Steve, Sal and I met up with him and Allan Ackerman to practice. I know if you know Rod you know that he does excellent shuffle work. Steve said that he wouldn't even sit at a table with him because of the muscles he has in his fingers; I can't blame him.

Can you imagine the skills of a man who has been doing a move for over 37 years? He was an expert at his specialty before Steve even started practicing gambling moves. It was an honor watching them both fool one another; they definitely fooled the hell out of me.

I'm glad my teacher taught me not play on anyone elses deal because I would've been robbed by either one of these guys if I would've played cards for money at any table they were at.

I didn't believe it was possible that shuffle work could look this good until I met them. Everything else that I've seen on shuffle work from magicians looked so choreographed that I thought what they did was the ultimate level but boy was I wrong for believing this.

Paul if I'm out there it would definitely be an honor to meet you who are one of the great legends who I heard about through the grapevine. Finally besides Steve, Rod and Sal I can meet someone who can teach me the real stuff. I don't only mean just card moves but CARD SENSE IN WHICH I AM VERY MUCH LACKING IN BECAUSE I STARTED OUT AS A MAGICIAN LIKE MANY HERE.

I know you have a lot of knowledge because I can read it in your post and I also know how to read between the lines in order to know how deep of an authority you are on the subjects that you speak about.

Teacher of wisdom, keep on posting so I can keep on learning.

Your Wanna-Be Student


P.S. Skills without wisdom don't mean a thing if you don't know how to apply what you know.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 5, 2004 06:53PM)
Doc, is that you in the online videos? Someone by that ID is doing some AMAZING dice and card switches. Also a nice pass.

The link the the clips is on another thread. And I suggest the interested visit there and drop down the clips. WOW.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 5, 2004 07:57PM)
My bottom deal post is just another angle view of Kif Chan's bottom. My Second Deal looks exactly like Chan's and Glenn Bishop's, My Infinity Pass in nothing but a variant of the table pass, my turnover is nothing but a variant to Jason's MacMillan Turnover.

As I wrote in one of my post already when my friend told me that Jason and those of the movie Shade was tiping too much, I told him the same thing and when I showed him what was really out there he totally understood what I meant.

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Aug 5, 2004 08:20PM)
On 2004-08-05 20:57, Unknown419 wrote:
My Second Deal looks exactly like Chan's and Glenn Bishop's,

Thanks very much Doc for the kind words. I have enjoyed the video that you have put up as well as your writings and your experiences about card games in the real world.

I would say in truth that for second dealing you and me - I would come in second. Because my second is good for magic. And I wouldn't use it in a real game...

Your friend and fellow student...

Glenn Bishop
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 5, 2004 09:40PM)
To Whom It May Concern:

It has been asked why is it that I call Mr. Glenn Bishop one of my teachers and I wish to address this question to all who may be interested.

When I first appeared at the CNC forum, I spoke out against magicians demoing gambling moves and trying to get us cheats killed. Everyone thought that I was being arrogant and to be honest, if I was looking from their side in all actuality I would have to agree with them.

I have a problem with phrasing my sentences. I sound rather harsh at times and this is definitely wrong when talking to others and definitely a non-Christian like attitude to have while professing to be a Christian (back-sliding Christian).

After much debating back and forth Glenn privately wrote me talking to me like Iím doing to those who lash out at me. He talked so eloquently to me calming me down like a charmer charming a serpent that I couldnít help but learn this excellent technique from him. All lessons learned donít have to pertain to gambling.

Not only did he help me in this area, while I was broke at home out of the kindness of his heart, he sent me his DVD and told me that I didnít have to pay him for it. Even though I was embarrassed to take it, I had to because I wanted to learn more and he had this knowledge in which I needed. Now how strong is that yaíll?

Glenn with his overwhelming personality and kindness reached out and helped a wretch like me when I was down and almost out? Teacherís such a Glenn and Paul come from all walks of life to help out the needy such as myself and I have to thank God for placing people such as them in my path so that I can learn and better myself while on the thin and narrow road.

Like I always mention in my post, everyone has a specialty or talent and it doesnít have to be in gambling in order for one to teach someone else; but itís still a talent to be treasured. God knew what he was doing by giving everybody different talents because this is what makes the world go around and what makes every individual special in their own way.

I know that I have a character flaw that needs improvement but God in His own way is working on it to help me through by the people who I meet through out my life such as Glenn and Paul.

I believe in a weird way that God has soften the heart of the owner of The Magic Cafť to let me speak when others at other forums did not, this is why they kicked me out giving me the boot. God gave someone here the patients to help me by tolerating my nonsense, correcting my hood-like grammar and periodically PMing me giving me advice.

Even though it will take some time before I really learn everything I believe that I will be just right on the day that I meet my maker.

Thanks Glenn, Paul and the monitors of the Magic Cafť for your help, I very much appreciate it. Reader's, I thank you for listening and tuning in on the Dr. Phil of the Gambling Table AKA the Nutty Professor because without you asking questions, Iíd just be talking to myself as usual.

Enough said I have to go and take my medication now.


Message: Posted by: GuardT34 (Aug 5, 2004 09:52PM)
On cardshark , it is definitely a good site worth the price of a deck of BEE cards ;) , it hasn't been updated though for several months, and the bulletin board is lacking in participants, with only a handful who post there on a regular basis. I'm gonna change my original findings it is the ONLY site out there on crooked gambling!

Good day folks, and Doc keep up the posts bud ;)
Message: Posted by: bonedaddi (Aug 6, 2004 08:59AM)
In regards to gambling and Erdnase, Tony Gorgio was quite emphatic that EATCT was somewhat of a joke among gamblers and that Vernon really didn't know much about real card table artifice. Doc, I was wondering if you could shed any light in this area.


Message: Posted by: SDR (Aug 6, 2004 06:44PM)
I'm totally un intiated to most methods of cheating, the lingo and the characters. But this thread really inspired me. I bought the Phantom of the Card Table book and read it all today. Great read.

But, I have to ask, where can I learn the MacMillan Switch?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 6, 2004 06:48PM)
Jason England can help with that info. but if you care to see the move get the DVD movie Shade and watch him do his stuff.

Your New Friend

Message: Posted by: SDR (Aug 6, 2004 06:49PM)
Thanks Doc, What I meant by the post was, I've studied Erdnase and the false deals and palming techniques heavily. I just don't feel I've got into the "real work" of sharping just yet. I've searched for the book on the switch, but with no luck.

Jason? :)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 6, 2004 07:24PM)
Shaun the information that are in these books are only the basics. What you have to do, like the magicians who doesn't care for certain techniques that other magician's do, is to make the book's move your own or do it the way that it fits your make up and manerisms.

Shaun be Shaun, because no one on this earth can be better at being Shaun Robinson than you. Don't try to be Erdnase, Doc, Steve or whomever because you can't be us, you can only be you.

Watch the videos of all the professionals that you've read about at this here site and practice what you need to know in order to win at the game you're trying to beat.

I hope that this information has been of some help to you.

Your New Friend


P.S. Yes check out Jason.
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Aug 6, 2004 07:38PM)
Doc, do you plan on putting up some more videos on cyngaporemagic.com? I love the ones there already, and would love more...

You once said that you didn't want to show the cold deck moves until you've shown the bottom deals etc. - but you've shown us these now, so am I right to check up on the site every day, or have you stopped completely on making those sweet vids?

With respect,

Message: Posted by: J3 (Aug 6, 2004 08:03PM)
The cold deck vid was posted months ago, it was mentioned a few pages back.

Tielie, did you ever find a table of contents for phantoms?
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Aug 6, 2004 08:56PM)
Yes, that I have noticed. But the vid is, as far as my knowledge stretches, gone now.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 6, 2004 10:05PM)
Samuel, regarding my cold deck videos. I thought that I mentioned this already in one of my post but I may have forgotten to. I am reluctant in posting them for a number of reasons of which I don't feel like going into at the moment.

People such as Tonto made me change my mind about posting it. He said that my dice switch video wasn't up to par and even though this is not bothering me in the least, he would know what to look for if I posted my cold deck moves.

So in order for him not to know what to look for just in case it happens to him, I wouldn't have tipped a great move to a sucker like him. I'm sorry but I'm crazy in that way. In order to get one person broke like him who think that they have all the sense I choose not to show the move to anyone.

Jack O' Diamonds who's at Card Shark is now trying to evaluate my cold deck switches because he desperately wants to see how it looks from all angles in order to try and learn it. I personally don't want suckers like these doing my moves because they will mess up my cold decking reputation by horribly demonstrating it.


Message: Posted by: bonedaddi (Aug 7, 2004 12:06AM)
Alright, I'll try this again. In regards to gambling, Tony Gorgio dismissed EATCT and Vernon as being two sourses that knew very little about what really goes on at the card table. Doc, do you think Erdnase was mearly posing and Vernon was posturing. I would love to know your thoughts


Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 7, 2004 04:09AM)
Bonedaddi I don't know. I'm just like you in this area. I study to learn the gambling moves but as far as all the other stuff I care nothing about. My goal is to win money. I'm not a magician and if I knew the answer to your question it still wouldn't matter to me if it doesn't get me any money.

Your Friend

Message: Posted by: Pekka (Aug 7, 2004 04:45AM)
I believe Tony Giorgio made an excellent point in his interview in Genii couple of years ago (he is on the cover) as well as in his interview with Bill Gusias a month or two ago.

He said that Vernon was a magician and therefore his gambling/cheating stories were part of the pattern. He was very knowledgeable and certainly had met several card sharks but he was also a compulsive story teller. I got the feeling that Mr. Giorgio thought that it was clear that Vernon knew the card table but he was a magician when he told the stories.

Also, he considered EATCT a good book and written by an informed magician or a magician who also cheated. Nonetheless, some stuff in the book is useless at the card table as some is very useful indeed.

I think most of these books should be taken with a pinch of salt. Everyone, especially entertainers, like to colour their stories a bit. Details can sometimes be so boring.

Doc, I believe, has been preaching that we should look into these sources. Analyze them and take the useful bits while disregarding the useless ones. And then work to make the useful bits to work for us, individually, as there is no individual alike. What works for me may not work for you, and never if it is merely copied. Am I right Doc? Or anyone else?

I sincerely suggest everyone to read the aforementioned Genii magazines. You can sense the experience of both Tony Giorgio and Bill Gusias. The latter being also one of the greats cheating device builder of his time. Valuable information indeed.

Doc, there has been some discussion, especially in some scam artist books, that cheaters often use short cons when not at the card table of shooting dice. What do you think? Are you or your friends often running street scams or short cons? OR is there people who strictly limit themselves on gambling?

Message: Posted by: bonedaddi (Aug 7, 2004 07:59AM)
Thanks for your reply Doc. In the gambling world it must be nerve wracking to execute a new move you have been studying. Like you said, either it will get the money or it will telegraph trickery. Have you ever studied a move and then made a decision at the table not to use it? Not because people were on to you, but your gut suddenly told you the move would raise suspicion?

Regarding your videos: For what it is worth I agree with you completely. Post only what you don't use anymore. As you said, these moves are not just your bread and butter, they could mean life or death.


Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 7, 2004 10:33AM)
Pekka thanks for writing.

To answer your question it's yes and no. Why? What works for me will work for you if we were both cheating at the same game but every culture has particular games that they play that the other don't and this is why I say no.

If the black folk only play Georgia Skin, Coon Can or Tonk and the white folk only play Razz, Gin or Texas Hold 'em. Why would I try to learn how to cheat at games that I will never play, to me it's a waste of precious time; life's too short to try and learn how to cheat at every card game there is and to learn every gambling move just because it's there to learn? I bet you donít know every magic trick there is even though you have access to learning them? Learn what you need in order to get the money that you want.

That's like learning how to vanish a tiger with a stage prop and you will never do a stage show: what's the use? Learn tricks that you can do on someone everyday and have fun with it. I have to admit that we do most of the time learn moves that we think we need only to find out later on in life that we don't but hey, chalk it up as experience.

This is why every real cheat has his own specialty according to the game or environment that he play in and this is why every cheat can't do every cheating move.

A Little Secret You Should Know

I really donít know how to play craps. Huh? I have a good idea of how to play craps but not enough to say that I can really play. I do know how to play Ce-Low.

My life was always centered on playing cards like the Phantom of the Card Table and the only reason I got into playing dice is for two reasons. 1. People who always played me cards always asked do I play dice and I would say no. 2. The crew that I was with won so much money at dice in a short amount of time that I wanted to learn how to cheat at it.

Iíve always been around crap games but it never interested me until the last 3 years when I saw my friends win so much money. Since Iíve always did sleight of hand I said to myself let me now turn my attention to playing dice so I set out to learn how to do control dice shots but after I learned how, I showed my teacher and he told me that controlled dice shots will rank you, I turned my attention to switching dice by watching Steveís dice video.

After watching Steve I tried to improve upon his moves so I made my dice vanisher in which yaíll have already viewed. Now Iím turning my attention to building dice of which I have all the information and videos of but since no one has shown me how, Iím at a dilemma and this is why I wasnít answering yaíll at one time because a guy was showing me stuff concerning it.

Note: I know how to play craps good enough for you not to take my money but Iím talking about the odds of payment. I know that too but Iím just slow at it because I donít play craps enough to make it really register in my brain. Individuals whom I play dice with think that Iím playing a con when Iím not sure about the bets. Wait until I really know and know how to proposition bet them and cheat them at the same time.


Doc why do you want to learn how to build?


Because I hate sloppy work and my life might one day will depend on it. I learned about sloppy work while I was learning how to mark cards. I used to buy cards that had blue or red ink on the front of a playing card because the guys in the store who marked the decks didnít let the ink dry before they packaged the decks to be sold. This subtle mistake can cost you your life if the sucker who was really cheated badly by ink marked cards now knows about what to look for.


Doc, there has been some discussion, especially in some scam artist books, that cheaters often use short cons when not at the card table or shooting dice. What do you think?


Whatever gets the money, thatís all we care about? If we have to take a two faced coin to get the money we will. My friends and I donít do short cons because itís beneath us but we run into other card mobs that do and we all know each other.

If I saw a friend of mine who I met doing his 3-Shell con on some vic, I would step up like a sucker and win just to convince the real sucker that anyone can win if they guess correctly and walk away only to give the shell worker back his money that he let me win.


Are you or your friends often running street scams or short cons? OR is there people who strictly limit themselves on gambling?

I was not raised in the streets, I turned to the streets after I was 32 years old and my singing career didnít work out. I was a magician like many of you are but I took my magic knowledge and made it work for me at the card table. This is why I previously wrote that I HAVE NO CARD SENSE. I GOT THIS DUMBNESS FROM YAíLL AND THIS IS WHY IíM HELPING YAíLL BECAUSE NO ONE HELPED ME AND BECAUSE THIS KNOWLEDGE THAT IíM TEACHING IS NOT IN ANY GAMBLING BOOKS. ITíS LEARN AS YOU GO.

Since my desire was to have money I chose cards as my way of getting it and not just any card hustle; this is why I donít do the 3-shell game or 3-card Monte even though I have video footage of an expert doing it and teaching it to me. Why should I try to be a jack-of-all-trades but master of none?

I will tell you one thing though, if you give me a week of practice, I will be doing it better then the guy who taught me only because I can add subtle techniques from magician 3-card Monte demonstrators like Mr. Glenn Bishop with Bill Schitzís pea handling. (Iím not sure about Billís last name spelling)

Note: Iíve seen all of Steve, Salís and Darwinís books on gambling and after I looked through mostly all of them of which Darwin has the most, I came to the conclusion except for about 1 or 2, that I have all of the most important gambling books that Iíll ever need. The books that I donít have I do have on my camcorder because just like a spy I took video pictures of every page of the whole book just incase I never get to see it again or canít purchase it: so in other words I do have them.

Talk to yaíll later I have to go to church now itís my Holy Day.


Docís holi-day

P.S. If some of my post sounds a kind of weird on certain readings itís because it was edited by staff because of my vulgar language or because I said something that I wasnít suppose to say to an individual.

Staff thanks for your editing but youíre cutting out some of my corny jokes.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Aug 7, 2004 02:41PM)
Thank you Doc for your reply. The reason why I asked about street scams and short cons was that many of those books have been written by people who have not actually done them. Thus, now I validated their text to a certain degree.

I can fully understand that no one is likely, or even willing, to learn a myriad of techniques when one or two will do. That is, if they are perfected. I believe this is an important note from you because so many here are saying that they cannot do a certain moves or that they have a hard time finding a good source. No real use of breaking fingers for a move if one can do some others flawless.

I asked people to post games that they do play for money and since that post was deleted I would like to repeat the question? (or should I start a new thread)
It would be nice to know what games there are and a little info on how one could cheat on them.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Aug 7, 2004 04:05PM)
One of the good hustles that I worked as a kid and that always got the money, is the shortchange. I could SC any living human on the planet. In fact, I financed my partner's wedding in one week Shortchanging!

I've read all the books that are supposed to tell you how it works, and they all are pretty close, but none of them really tell you what makes it work.

You have to know people. It is strictly a talking man's hustle, and if you can't size up the mark and read him you are dead. I walked away from a lot of cashier's because I could see that they weren't going to fall, but others are so easy I could get them twice a day! It's a small-time hustle, you make ten bucks at a time, but it's hard to get busted, cause you just claim you got confused making change, and leave without the score if you get caught. I would start in the morning, hitting all the coffee and donut shops while they were busy with morning rush hour, do about 15 in a couple hours, and that got me 150.00. then the lunch crowd, for another 100.00 or 200.00., then the stake was big enough to get in a card game or shoot pool...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: DanHarlan (Aug 7, 2004 04:16PM)
You know I was just thinking, if I went to this Las Vegas magician's gala this Aug. 22 etc. what would these guys want to see me do? I only have three specialties and everything else is basically even with everybody else's move. Just thinking out loud here.

...I know that a bunch of people would come up to me and ask questions after the show but just like Walter Scott's demonstration wasn't well received, mine wouldn't be either and I know if I was in a game with them I would have won their money.

How can one prove that you just did a gambling move if the audience didn't see you when you done it? They can easily say that you're just saying that etc. Now when you say that you're going to demonstrate what you did, everybody is watching you like a hawk.

I need advice or I need to seek advice in this area
I've hesitated to post here until now because I had nothing of value to add. Plus, I have enjoyed reading your comments so much that I didn't want to distract from the lesson. First, let me say that I am in awe of your abilities. I have nothing to offer you in that regard. However, you have expressed a need for advice in my area -- performance.

If you desire to share your incredible skill and personality with magicians attending the LV convention, I humbly offer you my services, free of charge. I plan to be there at least for a couple of days, consulting for two other performers. My feeling for you is that you don't need to drastically change who you are or what you do -- you just need to showcase it properly.

In my opinion, you would do very well with small private sessions where interested individuals get to "Meet the Cheat!" It would be made clear that you would demonstrate (not reveal) your techniques, tell stories, and answer questions. I believe you would get an enthusiastic response. As I said, I'd be happy to help you arrange and plan these events and I ask nothing in return. You would keep whatever entrance fee you decide to charge. You won't be able to retire on the income, but I think it could be fun.
--Dan Harlan
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 7, 2004 04:51PM)
Dan thanks for writing and for your help. I don't know why you hesitated about writing until now and I definitely disagree with you that you had nothing to offer. Whatever happened to just "GOOD OLD FRIENDSHIP?" Friendship is one of the most important things in this world.

As far as you helping me, I very much appreciate it but I have to get some money together in order to get there and into the magic hall. When I get this done, if I do, I would definitely let you know.

Your New Friend


P.S. Paul I like that story, please keep them coming if you care to share more of them.

Your Wanna-Be Student
Message: Posted by: LP Parker (Aug 7, 2004 05:08PM)

I respect your opinion but I would humbly suggest that you maybe you should meet somebody before you judge their stories as true or false. Tony Giorgio knew Vernon, Carlysle, and Miller. IMO Doc has no reason to lie to a bunch of magicians, I just don't understand why you doubt his credibility so much. Also, you stated first that you had an interest in knowing how you were being cheated, but are you a magician, or an amateur card player??
Message: Posted by: sanju (Aug 7, 2004 05:10PM)
Hey doc how are ya doing?
This is Jay from Memphis we met about a week ago in Maui's. Just wanted to saw thanks for all the work you showed me. Phenonmenal. didn't know this thread was this long running and popular.

get in touch as I have some things to send you,

Message: Posted by: Mar (Aug 7, 2004 05:50PM)
Would a real cheat write this?

Would a real cheat go to a magic convention to demonstrate his skills?

Would a real thief permit his name and photo to be published in a magazine and on the internet, and then tell everyone about it?

Would a real thief carry a bible, a gun, and a punch?
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Aug 7, 2004 05:55PM)
Paul, funny you should mention short changing as I have read it from some 4 or 5 different sources and have considered that to be a genious little scam. However, it is extremely difficult to describe and I still, if I'm not fully focus, lose the plot while reading. And that is what makes it a clever one, it is so difficult to back track. And yes, I have started to look at those cash register people in a completely different way (now my girlfriend is thinking that I'm flirting with them). Making some 150 extra per day is not bad, even if it comes in small packages.

Tonto, I agree, Genii is wonderful. I am addicted to it. But I just can't really see your obsession on putting Doc down. What's up with that? He certainly have a lot of "believers" behind him and many of those are people I have the outmost respect of. Just look at the names, Paul Chosse, Jason England, and, now, Dan Harlan. That is not name dropping, that is just saying that many who have more knowledge on this subject than I will ever have even if I lived for 100 years.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with having your own opinion but it does seem to be somewhat of a mission for you to put Doc down. First you were questioning and now you are just stating. I would be very interested to know why do you have these feelings against him? PM if you prefer to keep it unpublished.

And did you checked the Bob Farmer's colum on last Genii. Solid gold once again.

Mar, I think quite a many thieves carry a bible and a gun (sometimes gun in a bible), don't know about the punch though. They might take a few of those (that is if thy are unwilling to use the gun and bible didn't help).
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 7, 2004 06:14PM)
Interesting post Paul C.
Would love to hear more stuff if you don't mind sharing.


Which reminds me.I gotta get house of games on DVD.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 7, 2004 08:03PM)
Would a real cheat write this?


Would a real cheat go to a magic convention to demonstrate his skills?

Why not, I've already did 3 shows throughout the past 10 years and because it was so well received, people still talk about me today. All you have to do is ask around.

Would a real thief permit his name and photo to be published in a magazine and on the internet, and then tell everyone about it?

Yes, because I wish to eventually stop cheating, go straight and get a decent job.

Would a real thief carry a bible, a gun, and a punch?

I guess the answer to this one is also yes because I'm a thief/cheat and I periodically carry my gun with me and I always carry my bible in one form or fashion. I have a Treo 600 PDA phone (always the best phone out) with a King James Version bible program in it to read when I can and I always carry my punch with me on my key chain for easy access.

Why is it so hard for you to believe something so simple? There are always rules to anything that you do.

Basic Rules of Hustling

1. A hustler needs a vehicle in order to get to and from a game and in case he has to run.

2. A hustler should always have a cell phone in order to call 911 for help or if he needs road side assistance. He also need a cell phone to get up to date information on a game or directions.

3. A hustler should always have a firearm just in case he gets caught. He should use it only to scare and not kill in order to get out the door to his car to leave but if this scenario is not the case and his life is in jeopardy then he must shoot to scare or shoot to kill.

4. A hustler must always carry his tools in which he uses to work with; cards, dice, holdout devices, punch, vice, ink etc.

5. A hustler must have eye-glasses if his vision is not up to par as far as reading the marks on the back of cards and for driving: safety is a must.

6. A hustler/every human alive ought to carry their bible with them to read and study at intervals because we never know when we're going to meet our maker and we should never ever forget who got us here in the first place and that is God.

Note: A card cheat without an Ace in the hole is like a person without Jesus as their Saviour; you canít win.



P.S. Mar I believe that youíre Coco from CNC, if not I apologize, but you are the only one at Yahoo CNC forum who spoke about teaching the pinky count to people and then mentioned it to someone on your first post to me. Now would a Cheat Write That?
Message: Posted by: Randy Sager (Aug 7, 2004 08:13PM)
Doc I for one would love to see you come to Vegas and show some of your skills at the convention as well.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 7, 2004 09:28PM)
How I Started My Last Three Shows

Doc walks out and starts telling his audience a story about an old man named Doc who used to lie to get people to listen to his stories. (Lol, I know what Mar and Tonto is thinking now)

One day while old man Doc was sweeping up the floor at a gambling spot that he worked at, he saw some young hustlerís practicing various gambling moves. Doc says to these guys, ďWhy donít yaíll cut that mess out and go and find yourself a job with benefits or something?Ē

One of the hustlerís turns to Doc and say, old man why donít you mind your business, you donít know anything about this kind of stuff that weíre doing. Doc says, ďwhat you mean that I donít know about that kind of stuff,Ē I used to be one of the best card and dice mechanics in the world.Ē I knew Al Kennedy, Dad Stevens, State Street Eddie, John Scarne, Rod the Hop and Walter Scott, Erdnase died before my time now but I knew about him too.

The guys thinking that Doc is lying say yeah Doc right. Doc says in his old manís voice, ďboy are you calling me a liar? If you think that Iím lying then put your money where your mouth is.Ē Now all of the hustlerís who were there practicing laughed and said okay Doc itís a bet and started pulling out their money to bet him. Doc said, donít hold back that chump change now, put it all on the table; so they did.

Doc slowly walks over to the card table and coverís all bets and while doing so grabs up a pair of white dice making them completely vanish in front of their face to a different color. As their mouthís drop in astonishment, Doc then picks up a deck of cards and go to work.

Doc starts out by explaining to the hustlers, you are not suppose to use a mechanics grip while playing cards (Doc demonstrates all variants) because itís the first tell sign that a hustler is a cheater. (Doc then demonstrates his second deal without using the index finger as a stop) Scarne taught me that when we used to practice together; as a matter of fact, I believe that he also wrote it in his book ďScarne on CardsĒ canít yaíll read? If you can then why are you still doing it? Only magicians use this grip, are you trying to get yourself killed?



The Doctor

P.S. To those who don't believe that I'm the real thing, you have to admit that I do tell great and convincing stories right? LOL
Message: Posted by: tonto (Aug 7, 2004 09:52PM)
Russ Frazier

You wrote:


I respect your opinion but I would humbly suggest that you maybe you should meet somebody before you judge their stories as true or false. Tony Giorgio knew Vernon, Carlysle, and Miller. IMO Doc has no reason to lie to a bunch of magicians, I just don't understand why you doubt his credibility so much. Also, you stated first that you had an interest in knowing how you were being cheated, but are you a magician, or an amateur card player??

Russ, I believe that you misread my post. I did not question Mr. Giorgio's credibility, I understand that he is a recognized expert on dishonest gambling.

After reading your post, I reread my post and realized that my wording was ambiguous and could be misinterpreted; I apologize.

I was not discrediting Mr. Giorgio; I was comparing Doc's tall tales to Vernon's, as described by Mr. Giorgio.

In answer to your questions, I have an interest in magic, but I do not consider myself to be a magician.
However, I have played high stakes poker for more than 20 years.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 7, 2004 09:58PM)
Samuel I like how you argued back at me and defended your view even though some of the stuff that you wrote was edited, I respect that in a man. I'll post a couple just for you. Give me a day or two and it'll be up at CNC.

Your Friend

The Doctor
Message: Posted by: Mar (Aug 7, 2004 10:23PM)
Doc is a darn good card man, better than a lot of the bedroom mechanics he says he looks up to.
He moves under fire and will get the money. This info comes from people that have done business with him.
Message: Posted by: LP Parker (Aug 7, 2004 11:00PM)

I too mispoke. What I was saying is that Tony knew Vernon and the other magician/mechanics and therefore was more apt to be able to judge whether or not they could move under fire. I think Doc gave you the best advice that anyone could give you and I think Forte, Ortiz, or anyone else with experience at gaming protection would give you is, if you are in a private game and you have the slightest inkling you are being cheated just leave. In private games that is the best option when cheating is even remotely suspected.
Message: Posted by: tonto (Aug 7, 2004 11:05PM)

You wrote:

Tonto, I Love You Too. What you need to do is fly me to Vegas so that you can see me work. My fee will be much less than you will lose at the casino.


Your ambivalance frustrates me. You insult me, chastise and characterize me as a fool, and now you ask me to pay to see work.

I have seen a sample of your work for free. Simply stated, your work won't work. I have asked 6 professional poker players to view your videos. They all agreed with my opinion. One of the gentlemen queried, remarked, "The guy is a magician."

However, although I do not endorse or approve of your purported occupation, card hustler, I admire your audacity. I suggest that you put your talents to work in the world of the suckers. There's an adage often quoted by the old time poker players I've met: "Wise guys wind up sleeping in the sucker's barns and jails."

I suggest that you make a transition to legitimate business, or learn to play poker without cheating. America is still a land of opportunity.

As for gambling, I am informed that far more money is won with superior play than with cheating. Although I have no doubt that I have been cheated, I have never had a losing year at poker. And I am welcome in every Las Vegas casino. I have played in games and held my own with Amarillo Slim. Doyle Brunson, Ted Forrest, Bones Berland, Stu Unger, Chris ďJesusĒ Ferguson, Layne Flack, Chris Moneymaker and many more top players. And I have no need to carry a gun.

Every one of these gentlemen have annual incomes of six figures or more, and none of tham can deal bottoms, seconds, cold deck, or has read Erdnase. Wake up and square up Doc. Get some of that legitimate money.

I joined this forum in the hope of learning more about protecting myself from cheaters. I thought that I might acquire more knowledge, and I was willing to pay for information. But Doc, you have categorically denied any knowledge of poker played for money. You clearly stated that your experise is limited to games such as Tonk, Skin and other games played in the African-American community. Therefore, your advice would be of little use to me.

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 7, 2004 11:15PM)
Mar thanks for the compliment and please continue to post.

I see that you have good inside information on some people but what would I gain by bashing and discrediting these guys that I look up to as bed room cheaters when I'm the one that got one foot on the cheating side and the other out the door in case I got to run.

To be honest all of us got some kind of hustle going on. I saw Jimmy Swain hustle a T.V. show program he was on by showing a push off second deal as a middle deal. I know everyone here who saw it knows that it was definitely not a middle deal that was done but so what?

He knows that the casinos managers that he's working for doesn't know the difference and since the average audience viewer also doesn't know the difference, I guess he said to himself why not do it, these guys ain't nothing but suckers anyway; so he did.

Note: I do the same thing for suckers that's trying to get gambling information out of me who I don't want to tell anything to.

Forum members I'm not bashing Jimmy for conning the viewers about his middle deal, I'm just stating the facts of what he did. I'm a teacher and the only way that I can teach and explain something to ya'll where ya'll would get a better picture is to give you a visual example of what I'm talking about. Note: A picture (movie) is worth a thousand words.

Jimmy everybody's gotta eat and I'm not mad at you for trying to eat (earn a pay check). If I've offended you by saying this I'm sorry but next time do a real middle deal and I won't have to use you as an example.

Keep on gettin paid.


The Doctor

Tonto I appreciate you writing back and the way of which you wrote back.


I suggest that you put your talents to work in the world of suckers.


What do you think I'm talking to you for? You and these guys are suckers and rich ones at that. You're just my avenue of getting in with them.

Tonto, the guys that you mentioned saying that I was a magician? Get them together in a private social club like area, every man for himself, dealer's choice and don't tell them who I am and see if I don't rob them all. If you think Jamie Foxx went crazy in the movie Shade when he lost his money, wait until they see me work on their pockets.

Poker Players

I see that you've played with the big boys but I'll bet you that if you just get me around these guys to play them, I'll be a millionaire in a couple of months or less. I'll pay you 20% manager's fee from all winnings.

I know since you play to win that if you had a winning race horse that you'll sure have him to race for you. Well call me black beauty because when you see me make that move and all that money starts rolling in, you're gonna give me a high-5 and say "You Go Boy."

Your Partner in Crime

Message: Posted by: Mar (Aug 8, 2004 12:01AM)
Doc, your main idol also did that fake center deal on TV, about 3 years ago on "World's Greatest Magic #2 or #3 or a show like it.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Aug 8, 2004 12:04AM)

I believe that you are fascinated yourself about the little known world of card hustlers and you joined this thread to learn and see the legendary movements of a real time cheat.

In a previous post you said that you would pay Doc for tuition. But now you say that his work, simply won't work. And of course, your 6 professional poker playing friends supported your view. You are a bit confused I think.

But as Doc would say, you are just "asleep".

I agree with your view though about the advantage playing. There are money you can legitimate win in a supposently protected environment like a casino. But in such an environment you can get cheated as easily as well.

There is a website which you might be interested in, about poker advantage playing. It describes many cheating methods used in casinos. I believe this would help you more, since you are allready familiar with the environment there.


In the same site there is an e-book about cheating as well, called neocheating. Nothing new though, to those who have read Erdnase.


Take care

Ps: Teacher, are you familiar with the above works?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 8, 2004 12:23AM)
Mar I did not see that show that you're talking about but I know that you are 100% correct in what you just said to me.

This is why I keep telling everyone here that every card manipulator has his specialty and they practice ONLY the moves applying to a particular game that they need in order to get the money they want.

Note: Students, most casino private rooms use plastic Kem Cards and for those of you who know how hard it is to do a middle deal, try doing it with gritty-like plastic cards; you can't or can I?

If you can't do a side-step middle deal, the plastic card crimp will not hold and will not let you do the move. On that note why would this individual who Mar has correctly stated try to learn a move that he would never use in his life?

The only reason I learned 4 different middle deals is because ya'll magicians by reading them d*** books tricked me into learning them before I really started hustling professionally; I didn't know.



P.S. Mar you could have PM me saying this though. Player's are always suppose to look out for each other. Let's do that in the future.
Message: Posted by: Randy Sager (Aug 8, 2004 12:30AM)
Mar It was not worlds greatest magicians. It was I am sure an actuall center deal. There would have been no reason for him not to do a real one. As he can. jim Swain can not. At least not a good one. Jim is good but I have seen him do a center deal it is not a thing to shout about.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 8, 2004 12:40AM)
Randy you're my people and all that other good stuff but Mar is absolutely correct in what he just said. I know this for a fact.

I stated a good reason why he propbably never got around to learning it without going too deep.

Monitors if I had a wish, I would wish that this part of my thread be deleted even though the statments made here are true.



P.S. Mar sometimes silence is golden and now coat-pulling is actually happening.
Message: Posted by: Randy Sager (Aug 8, 2004 12:57AM)
Doc no problem. It is late and I am running at the mouth anyhow I am sure. So don't mind me. But I can run at the mouth when it is early too so I guess I am kind of in a spot huh?

I didn't mean to put any bad light on Jim as I do think he is good but I don't think that all his publicity is 100 percent true. I could of course be dead wrong. I have been before.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 8, 2004 01:05AM)
Yiannis I was about to write you and say no but I do have Frank R. Wallace's book Poker. My book is old and it has no picture of 4 guys on it but when I read the name, I looked.

This Poker player was a true professional card shark who I also admire as teacher of knowledge. I would advise all wanna-be cheats to study this here book. The pschology Frank uses is awesome.

Tonto, I guess you see now that I did study to play professionally or did I study Frank like I did Darwin's book in order to know what professional players like yourself are looking for?

D*** I'm so mean that I can't stand myself.

The Doctor

P.S. You guys see how hard I had to study? I not only studied gambling moves I also studied professional playing and the psychology behind the game just in case one day I meet up with a rich guy like Tonto.

My day will come and when it does I will be ready.
Message: Posted by: Mar (Aug 8, 2004 01:11AM)
Doc, I thought that all the cardmen knew this, therefore am pleading not guilty to the crime of coat-pulling.

I have never heard of a thief, that heard of a thief, that heard of a thief who claimed to be a middle dealer. I did know a guy who would deal from the discards(yes, they were soft games).

Do you know any middle dealers, besides magicians?
Message: Posted by: Randy Sager (Aug 8, 2004 01:33AM)
On 2004-08-08 01:30, Randy Sager wrote:
Mar It was not worlds greatest magicians. It was I am sure an actuall center deal. There would have been no reason for him not to do a real one. As he can. jim Swain can not. At least not a good one. Jim is good but I have seen him do a center deal it is not a thing to shout about.

Oops! Well I posted the above and did not see Doc's response before I posted. so I have inserted the old foot and wedged it in good this time. Sorry about that!
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 8, 2004 01:56AM)
Do you know any middle dealers, besides magicians?

No I don't but that doesn't mean that none are out there, look where they found me? I got tricked into learning how to do it. This is why I was so disappointed in my travels when I met different cheats only to find out that I was lied to. Boy oh boy did I get conned. Conned by magicians.

I won't tip the game to the magicians, I just want them to have real notes to look back on in the future just in case and I don't want to be a forgotten cheater. I always wanted to be legendary like the Phantom of the Card Table and now that I reached my goal there's nothing here.

I apologize for showing my picture and you are right for the other things you said towards me Mar. I just want to get out if you know what I mean: it's nothing for a mother or me to be proud of.

I guess I wanted to be one of the best at something in life so I took a picture for a magazine that I know blacks don't read unless it's in a doctors office. I guess I did it to prove something to myself when in all actuality I proved nothing and you saw through that.


Just Thinking Out Loud

Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 8, 2004 03:39AM)
Doc On Cold Decking

Viewers look at my cold deck switches ONLY ONCE and see if it would have gotten by on you if the decks were the same color and make your evaluation. Repeat ONLY ONCE. Then go back and view it as many times as you wish.



Tonto you are now an honorary magician thatís a poker player. You are bound by the magicianís rule not to reveal or show our secrets/my moves to any one (card players at any level; that means your friends).

Iím making this a gentlemanís agreement between you and I and youíre only bound to keep it this agreement if MOST OF THE MEMBERS here or any where agrees with you that my Cold Deck moves donít look convincing.

I have to say this because in my opinion your evaluation of what will pass is not sufficient thereby Iím letting these here individuals speak for both of us.

Donít show my movesÖthis is how the hustling game works.


Dealer Of Cards


P.S. Don't forget to give J (J3) a shout out for letting me post at his forum.
Message: Posted by: Daegs (Aug 8, 2004 04:14AM)

Those cold-deck moves definitely convinced me....... that's some very nice looking deck switching!!!
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Aug 8, 2004 04:33AM)

Im down right speechless - that's why I'm typing ;)

Doc, this was some crazy movies! Loved them!
Message: Posted by: LP Parker (Aug 8, 2004 06:39AM)
Nice work Doc.

As for guys like Amarillo Slim and Doyle not having read Erdnase or knowing how to deal bottoms, seconds, etc. These guys are all hustlers. Just read Amarillo Slim's book. Legitimate is a strong word to use around anyone who gambles.

Just to clarify on my previous posts, I'm not saying that Slim or Unger or any of those guys do cheat by using sleight of hand, but they do know how the moves are executed
Message: Posted by: KARDMECHANIC (Aug 8, 2004 10:34AM)
Doc, thanks for putting up those cold deck switches. I wouldn't have believed it if it weren't for the color changing of the decks. I greatly admire your skill and your knowledge. Thanks again.

With respect,
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 8, 2004 10:40AM)
I can't get in to see them.
I have signed now I have to wait for reply.

It's getting frustrating :)
Message: Posted by: J3 (Aug 8, 2004 10:57AM)
NP Doc.

Anyone wanting to join the group, just state that you heard of it from the Cafť(in the comment area on the sign up page) and Ill go ahead and approve you.
Message: Posted by: Mar (Aug 8, 2004 11:14AM)
Your cooler moves are very good.

I think guys like Jack O'Diamonds don't understand that these moves are not to be used in a cardroom with VCR's taping from every angle and strict procedures followed. They are used in a more informal situation. And in that setting some of the pros might play a mild one or two. Not people like Brunson, Slim or Reese, though.

tonto mentioned Jesus Ferguson, a World Series of Poker winner in 2000. He demonstrated a push through shuffle on "Wild West Tech" recently on the History Channel.
Message: Posted by: tensai (Aug 8, 2004 11:22AM)
Doc those moves are some of the coolest things I have ever seen.Its now 1:18 in the morning in Japan and I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me.Thanks for posting those videos they were a pleasure to watch.
Message: Posted by: tonto (Aug 8, 2004 01:26PM)
Russ Frazier:

You wrote:

"Just to clarify on my previous posts, I'm not saying that Slim or Unger or any of those guys do cheat by using sleight of hand, but they do know how the moves are executed"


How do you know?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 8, 2004 02:08PM)
Shopkeepers are not shoplifters but for their own protection, they learn a thing or two about it, or lose stock. I do not know but I think itís a safe bet that the likes of Stu Ungar knew a move or two.

I have not seen Docs vids yet, it keeps telling me to try later.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Aug 8, 2004 05:24PM)
Speechless. Girlfriend giving be grief since I'm more interested in a deck of cards than her at 1:30 in the morning. She doesn't understand my "look at that cold deck move" defense.

Thank you Doc
Message: Posted by: T. Joseph O'Malley (Aug 8, 2004 05:44PM)
On 2004-08-08 18:24, Pekka wrote:
Speechless. Girlfriend giving be grief since I'm more interested in a deck of cards than her at 1.30 in the morning.

That gave me a good laugh Pekka!! Thanks.

Just remember, there's 1 queen that trumps all cards in any deck, jokers included!
Message: Posted by: DaveM (Aug 8, 2004 06:16PM)
Those moves were FANTASTIC. Thanks for sharing your videos and experiences. I find it fascinating.

Message: Posted by: J.Manninen (Aug 8, 2004 06:18PM)
Excellent.. took off some thoughts
Message: Posted by: Duxx (Aug 8, 2004 08:29PM)
When you receive this message, I hope it finds you in good spirits.

Thank you very much for sharing your videos, my mouth is still on the floor, Doc you are truly gifted.

Also this has been a wonderful thread, I've been lurking for a while, just reading but after seeing the videos, I felt I had to come out and give you your respect.

Message: Posted by: vernal (Aug 8, 2004 09:23PM)
Mar wrote "I think guys like Jack O'Diamonds don't understand that these moves are not to be used in a cardroom with VCR's taping from every angle and strict procedures followed. They are used in a more informal situation."

They are also not used when everybody is staring at your hands. As Doc has basically said, discretion is the better part of valour.
Message: Posted by: LP Parker (Aug 8, 2004 09:57PM)
As for Slim, read his book or you might even ask him, he might not know the subtlety of a bottom deal(but I would not be surprised if he does), but he is more than aware of it's existence and certainly what to look for. Same with Doyle. I am familiar with associates of both of these men and have even spent time with one of them. I am not a gambler but have always thought that it was common knoweledge about Slim and Doyle, I mean Slim put a bunch of this stuff in his book. Stu and the rest I can't comment on firsthand, but I would tend to think that they are familiar with many methods of card table artifice.
Message: Posted by: Mar (Aug 8, 2004 10:28PM)
Do any posters here, have any actual experience with coolers?
Message: Posted by: tonto (Aug 8, 2004 11:20PM)
I saw the cold deck moves. They might work in a game with duffers and dummies, but would not get by with sophisticated players anywhere in the universe.

Obviously, I am not an expert, but I recall Jimmy Grippo a magician who worked at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas performing the same deck switches for a group of gamblers 30 years ago. However, I do not recall money in Jimmy's hand. In any event, Doc's money switch is a great magic trick; nothing more.

All of Doc's work is rank, and every card player who has looked at it, agrees with me. It's amateur night stuff.



You wrote:

"Do any posters here, have any actual experience with coolers?"

Dear Mar, given the praise and plaudits showered on Doc, it is safe to say; no one here has any actual experience with "coolers." I presume you mean cold decks.

Message: Posted by: KARDMECHANIC (Aug 9, 2004 12:51AM)
After reading your post I went back to viewing the videos and realize that even the most informed person WILL NOT detect the switches. If it weren't for their color changing I wouldn't have believed that they were actually being exchanged for another deck. The switches are made fluently and naturally, demonstrating the years of hard work that Doc has gone through to become the best in this field.

In my opinion the best two switches in the new clips was the one in the first video where the deck is placed before him lengthwise and the first switch on the second video were the deck is place in front of him endwise. These are my favorite because they look the most natural and because Doc can switch in a cooler even with the deck placed in different positions. Anyway, Doc's cold deck switches are excellent.
Message: Posted by: Brad Jeffers (Aug 9, 2004 12:54AM)
A way to guard against cold deck moves is to mark the faces of the cards just prior to the playing session. You can do this by hand, simply initialing each card, or more quickly by using a number stamp, creating an extemporanious number for each session of play.

Most people are not paranoid enough to go through such efforts.
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Aug 9, 2004 02:12AM)
Tonto: what you don't seem to realise is that now, you are looking for the move to happen, and you know what is gonna happen.
When you are in play, you won't be looking for this stuff every second and the moment you even begin to think you saw something, you're already conned.
I think this moves would fly by everybody, and if this was the worst angle, I almost know for sure :)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 9, 2004 04:19AM)
For all of you who wrote me and gave me compliments on my cold deck moves thank you.

I Have Better Cold Deck Switches

Iím sorry that I couldnít show yaíll my best cold deck switches or the ones that go up my sleeve etc. because as I said before, going frame per frame would expose it; but if you see me anywhere and ask me to do it for you and I have on my gambling outfit, Iíd be more then happy to demo some moves but only once will I do it for you.

Note: I have other cold deck moves that were shown to me by Steve that is not on his GPS videos, but Iím not allowed by a code of silence to show any of his moves; as a matter of fact nor of anyone elseís that I know. If they want you to know theyíll show you; besides if you want to see or learn million dollar moves then pay a million dollars to learn it and get your million back off of the next guy that wants to learn it.

Million Dollar Moves?

Did you see how much money Jamie Foxx lost in the movie Shade by just one cold deck move? Well your income will be based upon the status of your playerís income. If they are millionaires you will be too, if they are poor you could still live a $150 to 300,000.00 a year lifestyle (no taxes).

Viewers of My Cold Deck Moves

Those viewing my moves should note that yaíll are looking at video clips 1 and 4. I did not post some of my best ones (clips 2, 3 & 5) that I showed Steve, Rod and Sal for fear of yaíll learning them and exposing the moves.

Doc that reason is okay but is there another? Yes. My other cold deck moves are more astonishing, at least to me then the ones that youíve just looked at but if someone who was interested in learning them and demonstrating them went frame per frame they could eventually learn how to do them and this is something that I donít want out. This is why I demonstrated cold deck moves in which are already out.

The Deck Switches that I Performed

The first deck switch I performed is what the expert black hustlerís use in games. The second deck switch I showed is from Steve Fortes 4-Part GPS/The Movie Shade and the 3rd deck switch is from the movie The Sting in which it was demonstrated by John Scarne.Ē The 4th deck switch is only 1 of many that I made up.

Note 1: Regarding the movie Shade. I know that the cold deck portion of this movie was to show what was actually done to Jamie but I would like to say something to my viewers regarding a certain segment.

Even though Paul and I both do the exact same cold deck switch that Steve Forte does on his GPS, never ever rest your hand on top of your other hand in view of a whole table of players to see unless you donít want to live to tell about it.

Leaving your hand in view for all to see a full deck of cards peeking out from whatever angle of your hand after you cold deck is definitely a no, no. The hand that is holding out the switched deck always go to the edge of the table in a relaxed position like you see me or Steve doing in our videos or what Scarne did in The Sting.

Bottom Line. All Iím saying in a nutshell is that Paulís hand should have rested off of the table in a palmed or cupped position out of view but since Paul did state that he never cheated nor Damien they over looked this minute detail that is really not important to viewers who doesnít know what to look for; but very important to up and coming cheaters.

This minute detail is a big detail in the real world of gambling and it might just cost you your life, this is why Iím mentioning it because I donít want any of my studentís killed by not knowing specifics to the cold deck switch.

Correcting A Wrong: Placing your hand on top of your other is a technique that is ONLY USED for holding out 1 to 5 cards etc., not an entire deck.

Note 2: Regarding The Sting. My sting cold deck move is what Scarneís should have looked like if the movie producers would have filmed him doing it from a front angle. By filming this move from a side angle, it tells me without words that Scarne probably had windows (finger openings) and couldnít do this move good enough to execute before the camera therefore the camera men viewing this dilemma had to shoot it from a side angle.

Another scenario could be that the T.V. viewers wouldnít have known what happened and to let them in on what was happening they had to show it this way. The fact that magicians does this all the time when taping their moves is why I brought this up and why I show my moves at itís most crucial angle except for in the back of me.

Tonto Not You Again

Iíve read Tontoís comments and I had a funny feeling he would say this about my moves this is why I left out all of my real good stuff and showed the ones that were already out.

Question: Tonto, in the movie The Sting, were those rich white guys the dummies and duffers you were talking about that got cold decked or are you talking about the ones in Oceanís 11 because I sure didnít see no black folk up in there. I was just thinking, I must really be good because it took a whole table of whites guys and a Tom to rob one black guy.

Bottom Line, I donít care what color or race you are, the only way you can avoid my cold deck moves from being done on you is for you to have seen it before or to have me handcuffed to the table. Tonto I still have 36 more that you nor your friends havenít seen and I just got an idea for two more because I looked at myself doing my moves backwards.

Story Time

My teacher once told me a story of how he cold decked one of these poker clubs. He said that there were about 8 players at the table including him when he cold decked them. He said Doc you should have seen these suckers, they were betting like fools. I gave them all a hand to bet with. (Texas Hold Ďem was the game played) but after I had won the pot and was drawing in all my chips, one of the workers came over to me and said sir congratulation; may I have a word with you? I said yeah. The owner will like to speak to you. I said what about and what about my money (chips)? The guy said donít worry about it, weíll have your money brought to you.

As Billy went upstairs and into a room he said Doc I saw these big whites guys standing there with the owner. I said whatís up? The owner said sir I have a feeling that you cold deck my players. I said what are you talking about? He said you well know what Iím talking about and he had two of these guys to frisk me.

After not finding anything on me I told him you see, I told you I didnít do anything. The owner said well let me see and showed me the video footage of me doing my (the Shade) cold deck move in which it was flawless. I said, you see I didnít do anything but cut the cards and the owner said yes you did now stop trying to play with my intelligence.

Yes your move was flawless and as a matter of fact the best that Iíve ever seen in my life but youíve made one mistake. Doc the owner took my deck that I played with at the card table and placed it next to his other decks and when he turned off the lights all his decks glowed in the dark except mine. I said uh oh.

The owner said I donít know how you made my deck disappear and to be honest with you, I donít care. You can take this here money that youíve won with you but I donít ever want to see you in my club again; even though youíre the best cold decker that Iíve ever seen (the owner then started smiling).

Note: The deck was never found because it was passed off to one of Billyís white partnerís who was a member of the club before the betting began. To see what Iím talking about watch Steveís promo tape of his 4 Part GPS and youíll understand.

Addendum: You know why this con was so pretty because two different races were working together for a common cause, to break everybody.

Thanks again for the compliments


The Doctor

More cold deck videos are up for those who care to look. I don't use these moves anymore except one so do as you wish with them. (Video 2 and 3).

Go to the same site as previously


The Doctor
Message: Posted by: KARDMECHANIC (Aug 9, 2004 09:54AM)
Thanks for posting the new clips Doc. They are amazing to watch.
Message: Posted by: tonto (Aug 9, 2004 01:32PM)
The videos posted by Doc are simply demonsrations of a magician's version of a cold deck move.

They could never happen in real play because the rules preclude this sort of nonsense. For the benefit of the uninitiated, I will tell you a few of the rules that are strictly enforced in any money game played in any club, private or public, in America.

1. The cards must be cut with one hand.
(The dealer can replace the cut, but generally the person who cuts the cards will replace the cut.) Cutting the cards with two hands is forbidden.

2. The cards must be cut.

3. Fancy cuts such as three pile cuts are forbidden.

Another thing that escapes the observations of the neophytes who have never played cards for money, is that players seated at a circular or oval shaped card table are elbow to elbow. Also, if the deck were to be switched, it would not be in the middle of the table.

Additionally, cash in the player's hand is unheard of. All money games, played anywhere in Asia, Europe and America, are played with chips (also called checks). Any knowledgeable player who views Doc's tapes immediately dismisses them as gambler's ploys, because they are nothing more than magican's tricks.

As a youngster, I did play in penny ante games where we played with cash, but even there, the paper money in Doc's hand as he reaches for the cards would arouse the suspicions of unsophisticated players.

I do not have the time to engage in this nonsense any longer. You have the facts, so adios amigos. And God bless Doc.
Message: Posted by: J.Manninen (Aug 9, 2004 02:11PM)
I guess you only play at places like las vegas where you play for million dollar pots...

I think those places where you play with those rules are some of those evil buildings where you will never ever even see him playing cards
Message: Posted by: GuardT34 (Aug 9, 2004 03:04PM)
Doc knows more cooler moves? These particular ones he does not use anylonger but one? I remember reading an article on cardshark one day and a certain individual was talking about mucking, and mentioned though he was discusing mucking, he would not explain the more advanced mucking moves that are not published, stricktly speaking that Goerge Joseph book on the subject those moves are outdated at least in terms of being used in a Casino enviroment.

We can say the same thing here, Doc has plenty of more in his arsenal, you heard him say Steve has his own coolers as well that have not been seen in any of his previous GPS tapes.

And not everyone that plays in money games uses to quote Jamie Foxx "potatoe chips" Some people play for change, cash etc...

Why waste money on either some good Casino style chips or a cheapy brand at your local convineince store when you can just use money at a private game?
I can tell you, I am not into the chip play either.

Not all blacks play with chips like whites do, and vice versa, everyone has their own style of play.
You want to go out and play private gaming with casino style chips, and casino rules that's your business, but your making it seem like "everyone" plays with chips, uses cut cards, washes the cards before each deal.
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Aug 9, 2004 03:05PM)
Hi Tonto,

With regard to the cold decking moves, you do bring up some food for thought here. Although Doc has stated he no longer uses these moves. However, I think Russ is correct. Doc has spoken on a number of occasions about card play where dollars and not chips are used especially among the Afro/American community.


Paul H
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 9, 2004 03:24PM)
Remember Doc plays with blacks.They use cash.

And besides,it depends what company your in.

Doc never said he played the fastest company.

He will take anybodys money regardless if they are sphisticated players or rookies who don't know the value of hands.

In my opinion, everything can be put to some use in certain situations.

I have played cards in the back of a kebab shop with NO dealing , shuffling and cutting rules.

You just shuffled and dealt.And there wasn't for small change.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Aug 9, 2004 05:08PM)
In Gala Casino Nottingham the dealer shuffles and cuts the deck. In my private game a dealer offers the deck to the player on the right and the deck is cut in the hands. Player can also tap the deck.

Sometimes we play with coins, sometimes with cash. In fact, I have never seen poker chips being sold in Finland. Also in England one must search them quite a bit.

The point? If everyone would list their poker rules we would have hundreds of pages of different rules. So could you please stop the absolutions. You only know casino games apparently. What most of us are talking here is private games.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 9, 2004 05:26PM)
Tonto forgot to tell yaíll that in these clubs certain places might play differently. Every culture has their particular games that they play and everyone doesnít play by the same rules. There are always variations. Everywhere I play I always have to ask what are the house rules; and there are always variations that I have to adjust to.

This is why I told you that I know how to cheat at 26 different variations of poker and why I need a PDA phone. I forget how to cheat at certain games that I havenít played in a long time and I have to look up this information in my phone in order to remember what was the particular cheat that I used in order to beat a particular game.

Poker Rooms

In order to stop cheating these clubs play with two decks (red, blue) alternating each time as one deck is being played with the other deck is being shuffled. After the shuffler lays the deck down to be cut the next man (me) in front cuts the deck and the next man deals.

Note: The guy who shuffles the deck shuffles legitimately, the second man cold deck when cutting the pack and the third man unknowingly deals the pre-arranged cold deck.

To My Readers

I've played at a few of these places and even if what Tonto said is true in certain cases at this point I will then turn into Walter Scott or State Street Eddie and deal from the light or from the punch or I can edge mark the white bordered plastic cards with a pencil led colored piece of sand paper. If the players think that Iím playing the light I will then show my hands doing the Raven vanish ďjust like that.Ē

Oh one more thing Tonto what about me playing the scratch or the ridge? Donít let me use my daub version of the juice that I invented for the card table in which you have to blur your vision in order to see (check out the cock-eyed crooks in Ripleyís Believe It or Not). If you think that that scene in the movie Shade of the blurring of your vision was a hoax well itís not, and being that you are old the chances of you ever seeing the marks are very unlikely and my juice works on red and blue back cards.

Note: Readerís itís a fact that these clubs DO NOT PURCHASE NEW DECKS OF PLASTIC (KEM OR GEMCO) CARDS EVERYDAY FOR THEIR MEMBERS TO PLAY WITH AND NEITHER DO THEY WASH EVERY PLAYING CARD EVERYDAY, THEY WASH PARTICULAR CARDS ONLY WHEN NECESSARY, this is the reason they buy plastic cards because itís cheaper and they last longer.


The Doctor
Message: Posted by: Steven Evans (Aug 9, 2004 07:34PM)
I love reading your posts Doc. I have only recently become interested in cheating and gambling moves, I doubt I would ever have the nerve to cheat in the 'real world'.
What would you suggest for a newbie like me?!

But the whole area amazes me.
Any storys of gambling and cheating captivate me like no other (i don't quite know why!).
I suppose you could say that cards fascinate me. These 52 flat, familiar objects can keep people entertained for hours. It amazes me that people (us) can be so interested in cards when their is so much technology in the world.

Warm Regards,
Message: Posted by: tonto (Aug 9, 2004 07:42PM)

You previously stated that you did not play poker; now you suddenly know 26 variations. (As many or more than
Hoyle.) Your list of purported accomplishments reads like the curriculum vitae of a crooked gambling genius. However, you do misunderstand and misstate some facts.

In your description of "poker rooms," your statement that the alternate dealing of red and blue decks is designed to prevent cheating is erroneous. I have played in many games where the decks are alternated. This is done to speed up the game so that the house can cut more money out of winning pots. Get your stories straight, Doc, or all the magicians who patronize you will come to realize that most of what you write is apocryphal.

I do not know a d*** thing about cheating, but I have played enough poker in enough places to know the score; and based upon my viewing of your ploys, your cheating me or any experienced player is highly improbable.

Walter Scott and State Street Eddie; deal from the light; the punch; the edge mark; colored sand paper; scratch; the ridge; daub; juice? And when the players suspect that you are cheating, and further suspect a specific ploy, you do a magic trick and make the gimmick disappear? You then defy them to catch you while you continue to cheat them? Remarkable!

Indeed, you have a vivid imagination and a phenomenal ability to create scenarios from nothing more than buzz words and magic book cliches. You have the makings of a great fiction writer.

I did not say that your moves were "ranked," I said they were "rank"! However, if ranked, your moves would fall into the mythology category.

By the way, your recollections of your fictional adventures in the subculture of card and dice cheaters are far more entertaining than the movies you mentioned, and for that I give you credit.

After comparing your rants and raves in previous posts with those of GuardT34, I find the similarities in text and syntax so striking that I must agree with Mar's observation that GuardT34 and Unknown419 are pseudonyms for Doc.

You really don't need an alter ego to toot your horn; you have adequate support and horn tooting from our fellow posters.

God bless you,



Is your telephonic cache of arcane knowledge avaiable on DVD?

Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 9, 2004 08:39PM)
There have been some very knowledgeable people who have said Doc is the real deal.

They could be laying I hear you say


What has anyone got to gain.Doc isn't selling anything.If he was gonna do a dvd on his punch work and second for which he is known for then great.It will be better than other material on the market, so what if we are getting hustled.

If he can do the work, then sell it cheat or no cheat.

Why would these knowlegable people lie aswell.They have nothing to gain.

Saying Doc isn't the real deal because he has to stick to certain shuffling,dealing and cutting procedure is a little stupid IMO.

If your playing in a game with sophisticated players then maybe.But as Doc says he is always looking for the suckers.He also plays with blacks and blacks play different to whites.It all depends who your playing with.

I have played in pub games where there was a drunk player and not to irritate him we let him shuffle how he liked.No one cared.There wasn't huge stakes but there was enough to be happy with.

And you say you cant play for cash?

If you read the old posts Doc mentioned that blacks only play with cash.

I am just pointing out some obvious things.It just seems like we are going over old ground.Your questions have been answered in earlier posts.


p.s- I have ordered a book called 'How to control fair dice' by K.C card company

I have heard a bit about it.Has anyone got a copy and if so is it any good?
Message: Posted by: vernal (Aug 9, 2004 09:36PM)
Why do people keep responding to Tanto? He's obviously just trolling.

I have seen dice games at a warehouse I worked at when I was a kid where doc's switch move looked exactly like the average player. I have also seen dice games where if you move your hand from the line while shooting you're a goner. I have played in poker games where cash is the only way to go, and if you have ever been a banker at a home game where the end of the evening leaves more chips on the table than when you started you would know why. Chips speed up the game, since as the denominations climb it gets to be a hassle waiting for a guy to count out 15-20 bills.
Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Aug 9, 2004 10:25PM)
On 2004-08-09 16:24, kukram wrote:
Remember Doc plays with blacks. They use cash.

I turned to my (Jewish) wife and told her "remember, blacks use cash." She hit me right across the face with a Wall Street Journal.

What do I know?
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Aug 9, 2004 10:26PM)

you are absolutely right about Tonto. But I have to agree with what Paul H. has stated some time before. These kind of posts are indeed highly refreshing and entertaining.

Doc need no validation from anybody. Magicians who know who Steve Forte, Jason England, Paul Chose, Andrew Wimhurst, Dan Harlan are and their knowledge about card manipulation and gambling, can make up their own mind about their praise of Doc's abilities.

On the other hand, this is what makes this thread so great and why so many knowledgable magicians follow it. And Doc is driven to write about his real life experience as a cheat. This is what we seek in here and we don't find in books or movies anywhere.

About poker games... In Greece we play at least 36 variations of poker games and with as many variations for each game. You need a life time to learn to play well in every variation, let alone to cheat. And in every private game the rules about card handling are made up on the way. And about chips?? We use peanuts instead!!


you are hillarious :) LOL!
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Aug 9, 2004 10:35PM)
On 2004-08-09 14:32, tonto wrote:

For the benefit of the uninitiated, I will tell you a few of the rules that are strictly enforced in any money game played in any club, private or public, in America.

1. The cards must be cut with one hand.
(The dealer can replace the cut, but generally the person who cuts the cards will replace the cut.) Cutting the cards with two hands is forbidden.

2. The cards must be cut.

3. Fancy cuts such as three pile cuts are forbidden.

Additionally, cash in the player's hand is unheard of. All money games, played anywhere in Asia, Europe and America, are played with chips (also called checks).

Every single statement above is incorrect in regards to the private games I've played in Southern California. Keep in mind, I only play private low stakes(a couple hundred or so) Hold 'em.
Message: Posted by: bishthemagish (Aug 9, 2004 10:50PM)
Thank you for posting that kukram when I was playing cards (years ago) I would only play two games for money draw poker and stud poker. That was it. The people I did play cards with liked to play those two games and only those two games.

Draw poker nothing wild - stud poker nothing wild.

Over the years I have met a few card advantage players and from what I learned from them is that they would play only the games that they knew well because those are the games that were easy for them to take advantage. "And get the money".

I would think that anyone that is advantage playing for a living would would stand a better chance of "getting the money" if he was playing a game that he knew well.

Rather than a new game or trying to be an expert at lots of games.

It may be a liitle like magic. It is better to do a few tricks well than a lot of tricks bad.

For an advantage player - it may be better to play and be an expert on just a few games than less of an expert in many games...

Something like that.

I agree with kukram and others - Doc is the real deal....
Message: Posted by: appl3tard (Aug 10, 2004 03:28AM)
Dear Tonto,

You expect everyone around the whole world to cut the deck and complete the cut using "1" hand or use cut cards? (It's just not going to happen everywhere).

The bottom portion should be personally replaced on the cut off part. And the deck should be squared up personally when playing "normally" or against doubtful company. (That gives the reason to use the other hand).
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Aug 10, 2004 04:19AM)
DOC: your moves are amazing and I think you should ignore this Tonto guy.
I've said it before but I'd like to hear his reaction on this:

You only spot it (although I think you don't) because you know what is going to happen, and when. In a game, DOC won't stand up to say he is going to bring in a friend of his named Cooler, and then waits for everyone to spot his moves. You would be conned before you could blink your eyes.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 10, 2004 05:52AM)

As for the authorities referenced in your various posts, why is it that none of these authorities come to Doc's defense. Could it be that they too realize that Doc is a rank amateur, and they don't want to be embarrassed?


Tonto you have asked the right question why? I donít know. Maybe Iíve ****ed them off for talking too much? Maybe they all called each other or got together and black listed me. Maybe they were going to show my stuff as theirs and I did it before they could and they got mad. Maybe they have jobs that they have to attend to. Maybe theyíre getting things together for another movie and donít have the time. Maybe Iím hogging up the show or maybe they just donít feel like it. Whatever reason it might be shouldnít you ask them instead of me?

Donít get me wrong, I respect everybody whom I meet and I have love for everybody but I donít hold my tongue for anyone especially when Iím teaching and neither do they. They are straightforward individuals like myself of whom I respect and quiet as kept they will knock you the f*** out if you rub them the wrong way gamblers or not.

Besides, I donít need any validation from anyone confirming the validity of me being the Doc and if I did, Iíve already received it by two of my gambling idols Darwin Ortiz (the highest level that a gambling demonstrator can obtain without being the real thing) and Steve Forte when they both seen my work. I got a certificate with a risen seal of approval by both worlds and a Ph. D (please help doubters) degree to prove it.

Answering My Questions

Tonto whatís wrong with my readers answering questions for me when they already know the answer? I donít want puppets I want students that will stand up and speak their own minds; not Docís mind. Tonto this world doesnít revolve around you or I and since they are our leaders of tomorrow Iím glad that theyíre speaking out and testifying to the truth that they know to be true. Quiet as kept, if you didnít know it or not YOU are the Test Sheet for my students and they just passed with flying colors.

They are going back and re-reading my post, they are reading between the lines, they are not just accepting things that I say; they are using their own minds and Iím proud of them for doing so.

Tonto we live in the real world, we are not rich and play in exclusive environments like you, we are the little guys trying to make it or make ends meet so why donít you do what the gambler tell all the suckers to do who want to explain why they lost or why they got cheated etc, ďTell Your Story Walking and donít let the door hit you in the butt.Ē

Your Friendly Nemesis


P.S. Tonto I misunderstood your word rank because in our slang rank(ed) means that you can't do a particular move any longer because everyone knows about it already.
Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Aug 10, 2004 08:15AM)

I finally got into that forum to see your cold deck stuff. Pretty amazing. I love to be a fly on the wall when you are working (in whatever capacity) You've got me working on it, even if I only perform as a magician (who, of course, brazenly allows the layman to think I am a cardshark of the highest order. That's show-biz).

Have a good day. . . .

Ron "Hyperbole" Giesecke
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Aug 10, 2004 10:35AM)
Yeah I too love to tell people I can cheat anyone :D
And when they see me deal four queens very casually after some shuffling, they oten believe me :D
Message: Posted by: Samuel (Aug 10, 2004 11:48AM)
"To see what Iím talking about watch Steveís promo tape of his 4 Part GPS and youíll understand."

I can't find these promo's, are they available on net? Every site I've been at, looking for the GPS-tapes, have not had any movies.

"More cold deck videos are up for those who care to look. I don't use these moves anymore except one so do as you wish with them. (Video 2 and 3)."

I cannot find these movies on cyngaporemagic nor c_N_c, and I'm writing this the day after you posted the videos. Are they already withdrawn?

With all respect,

Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 10, 2004 12:11PM)
"Note: Readerís itís a fact that these clubs DO NOT PURCHASE NEW DECKS OF PLASTIC (KEM OR GEMCO) CARDS EVERYDAY FOR THEIR MEMBERS TO PLAY WITH AND NEITHER DO THEY WASH EVERY PLAYING CARD EVERYDAY, THEY WASH PARTICULAR CARDS ONLY WHEN NECESSARY, this is the reason they buy plastic cards because itís cheaper and they last longer."

What Doc says above is true, as I run a game I know.
Also, and you will not believe this, but I go to a casino that has used the same deck for the last 12 months and if I go there tonight that deck will be being used at one of the tables. And this casino is no sawdust joint.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 10, 2004 12:17PM)
Yeh, MC hammer, he was a hustler.

he tried to con us into thinking those baggy trousers were cool.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 10, 2004 01:23PM)
On 2004-08-09 23:35, rawdawg wrote:
On 2004-08-09 14:32, tonto wrote:

For the benefit of the uninitiated, I will tell you a few of the rules that are strictly enforced in any money game played in any club, private or public, in America.

1. The cards must be cut with one hand.
(The dealer can replace the cut, but generally the person who cuts the cards will replace the cut.) Cutting the cards with two hands is forbidden.

2. The cards must be cut.

3. Fancy cuts such as three pile cuts are forbidden.

Additionally, cash in the player's hand is unheard of. All money games, played anywhere in Asia, Europe and America, are played with chips (also called checks).

Every single statement above is incorrect in regards to the private games I've played in Southern California. Keep in mind, I only play private low stakes(a couple hundred or so) Hold 'em.

At first glance I was going to agree with this, because it is in fact how I see poker being played. In fact it is not true as a poker game can start up anywhere, Hotels, Pool Halls and homes etc. I seen it happen time and time again, guys just buy a deck of cards and start playing poker for the cash in their pockets. Me and the boys had to go and see a layer ounce and we ended up playing poker for cash in his office. Also a lot places are not surpossed to allow gambling on their premises but they do. Such places do not want Gambling Chips in the place, because it is evidence if they get raided. Anyone living in the real world knows this to be true. Some of the biggest games I have played in started like this. There were no rules but one, "Don't get caught"
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Aug 10, 2004 02:16PM)

I couldn't agree more with what you stated. Private games are played exactly this way. In Greece, by the time police arrives the place has turned into a church hall :)
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 10, 2004 03:06PM)
Ron your previous post was very funny about your wife hitting you with that news paper. I'd like also to thank you for your compliment on my handling.


Samuel there would be no more Cold Deck videos because the more I show, the more people will criticize my other ones and as I previously posted, that gets on my nerves especially when they can't do the move or never seen it before; I'm crazy like that and this is why I took them down.

For those who saw it good and for those who didn't please get it from one of your friends.


Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Aug 10, 2004 04:36PM)
On 2004-08-10 14:23, tommy wrote:
Also a lot places are not surpossed to allow gambling on their premises but they do.

Over here in Cali, I think it's because of taxes. The State wants its cut. Even so, I've sat down in private games full of cops and firemen. As far as I know it, Poker, like Beer, Guns & Chevy Small Blocks, is a God Given Right.

Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 10, 2004 04:43PM)
Hong Kong Wong the Chinese Card Cheat
seems to be doing better than Doc at the moment.

Message: Posted by: rawdawg (Aug 10, 2004 04:57PM)
It's gotta' be the name. Hong Kong Wong is pretty marketable, not to mention easy to rhyme with for the bling bling rappers.

Maybe Doc needs a name upgrade?

Pappa Doc Stocker
Doc the Stock Locker
No Knock Doc
Doc the Rock Clocker
Doc "Cold Cuts" Holiday

I'm just thinking out loud here.
Message: Posted by: vernal (Aug 10, 2004 05:24PM)
Posted for your consideration:


"Did you know my father could palm two pair of dice in the creases of his palm while scooping a third pair off the table and releasing one of the pair from his creases - without batting an eye? He had so many dice in his car trunk. He said he had 3,000 sets of dice in his trunk. He could excuse himself from any game, go out to the car and return with dice that matched those in the game and could fit two sets in his hand and make people lose."

In case the link does not work, it is from a Jimmy Breslin article in Newsday titled "She got a one-of-a-kind childhood education".
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Aug 10, 2004 05:42PM)
On 2004-08-09 18:26, Unknown419 wrote:
"...you may have played with the big boys but because your head is shaped like a hubcap doesnít mean that youíre a big wheel around here...."

ROFLMAO! I honestly don't care if you're the real deal. Some of your comments are priceless.
Message: Posted by: Pekka (Aug 10, 2004 05:48PM)
Thank you Vernal, very interesting indeed. And reminds us all to start pressing questions to our own parents and granparents. Their history deserves to be recorded, at least for the family. If anyone has stories I would be very pleased to hear them.

My own grand father did not gamble but he had some great war stories. Unfortunately by the time I got old enough to listen them he was too old to tell them. All I heard how they had no idea the cruelty of Hitler and how they would have never supported them if only they would have known. But, nontheless, priceless information anyway. Start interviewing.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Aug 10, 2004 06:34PM)
Tonto: You are a prince among men - and perhaps a true believer! Else why would you allow someone you claim a fraud to consume so much of your time? Maybe this is cathartic for you, I don't know. You are obviously intelligent, clear-thinking, and interested in the subject matter. But is is passing strange that you are giving so much time to a subject that can serves no good purpose for you. The information you seek is not available here, according to your repeated assessments. Unless you are sharpening your debating skills, I can't see the point of your continued participation. Methinks the non-believer doth protest too much! But maybe you can clear this confusion up for me....

Best, PSC

P.S. No offense intended here, I am undeclared, and acting as an impartial observer...
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Aug 10, 2004 06:37PM)

Tell your friends to laugh on but ya'll are lucky that I am broke because if I did have a good piece of money and I knew where ya'll was playing at it would be my goal to break you and them and then I'll be the one laughing as I say "Tonto got ya'll all broke for getting me mad."

Tonto regarding the rest of the money, as someone said already, easy come, easy go. I bet you spend a lot of money on lavish living too and treating the ladies.



Hong Kong Wong is doing much better then me. I have a friend that did the same thing in St. Martin but that's not allowed for me to talk about.



I would love to meet your father, he sounds like a legend already. If he's still alive it would be an honor to meet him. The way your father worked is how me and my crew is suppose to work but we don't but I'm getting there slowly but surely.

Please keep telling legendary stories like that, I love to hear stories too.


Message: Posted by: DaveM (Aug 10, 2004 06:50PM)
While living in England a couple of years ago, I had the privelege of chatting with a fantastic monte player in London's "Leicester Square". This guy had a great scam going, using these rubber "coasters" vice cards, and would consistently walk away with a fistful of 10 and 20 pound notes after what seemed like 15 minutes. His technique was most amazing, using methods that completely hid "the toss".

But to talk to him, he seemed like the most unhappy guy on earth. He said that he hated it just like any other job. And this guy was making what we estimated to be well over $1500 a day working the square.

Message: Posted by: KARDMECHANIC (Aug 10, 2004 07:38PM)
I keep hearing about that guy that uses discs for three card monte. This is like the third time. He must be really good.
Message: Posted by: Yiannis (Aug 10, 2004 08:32PM)
He works around Picadilly and Leicester Square. And he works with female shills the last time I saw him. Very deceptive and luring :)
Message: Posted by: DaveM (Aug 10, 2004 08:47PM)
Yep Yiannis, I remember him using one female shill in particular. She "won" like three times in a row. Then there was the overconfident sucker tourist that immediately followed her and lost like 60 quid on one toss. OUCH! Gotta love it.

The manner in which he held the two discs flush in his hands basically made it impossible to tell which one he tossed at any one time. It was fascinating to watch him work the crowds.

Message: Posted by: vernal (Aug 10, 2004 09:42PM)
Oops! I was not clear in my post above. The person Jimmy Breslin was writing about was "Claudia Albetta, who lives far over on West 43rd Street", who is the daughter of someone named "Nicky the Snake". I have no relation to them, I just thought the article was on topic.
Message: Posted by: Mar (Aug 10, 2004 10:42PM)
I did a Google on "The Lone Ranger." There was an episode titled "The Cooler" in which The Lone Ranger and Tonto must win enough money in a high stakes, pass the deal, poker game to pay the ransom for the mayor's daughter. A cardshark wins all the money by switching decks, but is bushwhacked on the way out of town, where he is rescued by Tonto. They cut their wrists and become blood brothers. Doc thanks Tonto and gives back the money, as Tonto tells him he could not switch decks in a tough game. They argue about this for the next four episodes. Doc says "if we are going to argue this much we might as well be married". They were last seen riding off into the sunrise on their way to Boston.
Message: Posted by: J.Manninen (Aug 10, 2004 11:20PM)
I'm With Tonto 100%

Those moves would never go thru in real card game......

At least I would immediately see those moves... it's so easy to see.. When deck changes color it must be a Cold Deck.. or other Sleight which doesn't belong to Honest Gambling table.


( Is this what Tonto is worried about ) LOL
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Aug 10, 2004 11:30PM)

I have first-hand knowledge of Steve Forte and Darwin both stating that Doc's cold deck moves are incredible. While they were non-commital on whether or not they thought the moves would pass every single time and in every game, they each stated emphatically that they thought the moves would fly under the proper circumstances. Steve told me this in January and again in July of this year and Darwin told me in April of this year in Sacramento. Since I'm not giving out their email address or phone numbers, you're going to have to trust me on this.
On a related note, Darwin immediately told me of a video tape in his collection where a guy in a casino constantly picks up a cut deck and puts it back together in the wrong order (so that no cut took place) all night long. This was in a cardroom in (I think) Southern California. Apparently this went on for hours and no one says a word at the table.

If that can fly, then I've no doubt Doc's cold deck moves can fly. Maybe not every time, but enough to make a living at it. The thing is, those moves look great when you're watching. How good do you think they look when you're not?

I've also had the pleasure of showing both Phil Helmuth and Chris Ferguson (both World Series of Poker champions) some card moves at the Shade premiere.

Both of these gentlemen expressed the opinion that they would be helpless agains me at the card table, simply because they couldn't see the moves (push-throughs, Zarrows, stacks, hops, deals, etc).

Now, I don't consider myself anything more than an above-average mechanic with no real-world cheating experience beyond nickel and dime games with friends.
So if I can get 2 World Series champs to admit they'd be helpless against me, then how would they fare against the Doc?

The answer is he'd crush them. Because Doc doesn't play poker, he plays cold-deck.

But the point is, these 2 World Champs didn't say, "Oh, we know that one", or "I've seen that before." With the exception of a few standards like bottom deals and push-throughs, they had never seen the large majority of the moves before. This just goes to show that not all "real" poker players are hip to the possibilities with a deck of cards. I went to high-school with Chris Moneymaker (another World Series Champ) who was a year or so behind me. Could I beat him on the square? No way. Could he beat me in a private game where I supplied the cards and got to handle them? No way.

And the majority of Doc's opponents can't spot his stuff either. It's a simple as that.

Jason England
Message: Posted by: DanHarlan (Aug 11, 2004 12:13AM)
Let's play.
When would you and your experts like to fly out and take on Doc?
I'll meet you there.
--Dan Harlan
Message: Posted by: Mar (Aug 11, 2004 01:19AM)
Jason I believe what you said about Forte and Ortiz comments about Doc.

Do you know what Forte or Ortiz mean by the term "proper circumstances." An example or two would help in this debate. Even Tonto agreed that under the proper circumstances("albeit with duffers and dummies") Doc's cold decking would work. Doc has stated that he does this by himself with 7 or 8 players.

I was under the impression that a lot of the poker players in Vegas would be unable to protect themselves from being cheated in an informal setting where strict casino cardroom procedures were not followed where the deal went around. Do you think this is a correct impression?
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ram (Aug 11, 2004 02:48AM)
I have also seen those monte hustlers in londons lecister square.They were russian I think.

The shills were SO obvious.The people watching were even saying out loud they were stooges..ha

Because all the stooges had a russian accent....ha and they were wearing clothes that made them stand out a mile.It was run terribly but they still got people to play.

Some people knew they were shills and still played.

But the strange thing is they did pay out on a losing bet to a chinese guy.I think they took a bit off him so they paid a little out to keep him hooked.He wasn't a shill because the dealer gave him a funny look as if to say'your catching on to what I'm doing'.

But he got taking for more than he won.

They had look outs and when they signalled that the cops were lurking they would drop the piece of card board into the bin which it was resting on to clean up and then blend into the crowd.

I also saw them another time get caught by undercover cops.They got pushed up against the wall and searched.Dont know what happened then.

Even though it was terribly run they were still making quite a bit of cash.His handling of the moves was good but altogether not very well run.

you got what you asked for.Hope that has cleared things up.

As I have said in all my posts , evrything can be used under certain circumstances.And as Forte said on the GPS "its hard to spot a move when your just not looking"
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 11, 2004 05:32AM)
Hi Doc

I am sorry to hear you down on your luck at the moment and I did not mean to rub it in by calling attention to Hong Kong Wong. I just was trying to make the point that it is possible to do moves even under the Eye in the Sky and get away with it, as Wong proves, yet some argue such things can not be done, not even in private games. What say them to Mr Wong?

Another point they try to make, is that card sharks are never without money. What say them to W.S. Erdnase, the most famous card cheat ever, whose motive for writting his book Expert at the Card Table was, as he said, "he needs the money".

With regard to work at the card table, it is only a matter of opinion what could fly or not. Steve Forte, for instance, could perhaps give an expert opinion but it never becomes a fact just because he thinks it. Even if a move has flew at the card table many a time you will find someone with the opinion that it will not fly in his or others company. They might be right or wrong but when they are wrong they will never know as they become another unknowing sucker.
Message: Posted by: Tielie (Aug 11, 2004 05:46AM)
I am so proud of my own thread :D
I love to read this stuff and I really hope the DOC will meet up with Tonto.