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Topic: Bottom deal grips
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Aug 1, 2018 04:10AM)
Do you guys know any bottom deal grips other than the ones below? Thanks a lot.

1. Erdnase original grip
2. 1st modified Erdnase grip
3. 2nd modified Erdnase grip - Gene Maze grip
4. Mechanic's/ Dealer's grip
5. Master/ Modified master grip
6. Straddle grip
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Aug 1, 2018 04:50AM)
Full Grip bottom deal (Robinson/Walton)
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Aug 1, 2018 07:19AM)
[quote]On Aug 1, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Full Grip bottom deal (Robinson/Walton) [/quote]
Thanks Bob, is this available on video?
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (Aug 1, 2018 02:24PM)
[quote]On Aug 1, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:
[quote]On Aug 1, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Full Grip bottom deal (Robinson/Walton) [/quote]
Thanks Bob, is this available on video? [/quote]

I believe Peter Duffie has it on one of his Move Mastery DVD's.
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Aug 1, 2018 08:29PM)
[quote]On Aug 1, 2018, NicholasD wrote:

I believe Peter Duffie has it on one of his Move Mastery DVD's. [/quote]

Thanks Nicholas, will definitely check it out
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Aug 2, 2018 06:38PM)
Someone's been reading my notes.

Jason
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Aug 2, 2018 11:49PM)
[quote]On Aug 2, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:
Someone's been reading my notes.

Jason [/quote]

Hi Jason. There is a grip that I forgot to mention in my post - Marnase grip. After looking at it may I ask is it similar to the 1st modified Erdnase grip? This is because the forefinger is placed very close to the middle finger of the holding hand. Thank you.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Aug 3, 2018 03:27AM)
Liam,
The full grip bottom deal is taught on Move Mastery Volume 3, Peter also demos the Robinson middle deal on the disc but doesn’t tip it (Paul Wilson did a brief demo of his take on it for me once, but because his hands were covered in lemon juice it wasn’t as smooth as usual)
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Aug 3, 2018 09:18AM)
[quote]On Aug 3, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
(Paul Wilson did a brief demo of his take on it for me once, but because his hands were covered in lemon juice it wasn’t as smooth as usual) [/quote]

https://qz.com/986221/what-know-it-alls-dont-know-or-the-illusion-of-competence/
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Aug 3, 2018 09:45AM)
@Peterson: Thanks for the heads-up on lemon juice. I have been smearing lemon juice on my hands when I play BJ to make them invisible to the camera. Wow, I could be in trouble if they play back those tapes.

Say, how about vinegar. Does that work any better?
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Aug 3, 2018 11:36AM)
@Cagliostro I feel like we are about to expose some REAL work here. Are you not supposed to mix any marking system with balsamico in order to smell it before you see it?

There seems to be a lot of confrontations about the "grips" in a gambling discussion. Some say to use whatever grip they want and nobody will care if it looks natural. Same say to use the grip that everybody else is using. Personally, I would choke if I saw somebody busting out the good old Erdnease Grip in a card game, or even the "Straddle grip".
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Aug 3, 2018 12:33PM)
[quote]On Aug 3, 2018, Peterson wrote:

Some say to use whatever grip they want and nobody will care if it looks natural. Same say to use the grip that everybody else is using. Personally, I would choke if I saw somebody busting out the good old Erdnase Grip in a card game, or even the "Straddle grip". [/quote]


No disrespect meant to anyone on the BB, but it is sometimes surprising how some magicians and demonstrators are misinformed about the gambling demos they do. The reason is many simply lack experience in live game activity.

If the grip works and it fits into the games one plays without suspicion, what difference does I make what grip or grip designation one uses.

Even a highly respected magician like Dai Vernon was sometimes in error about comparing magician demo moves and live actions game techniques. I recall a great many years ago at the Magic Castle, I was sitting at a card table in a "private" room at that time with Vernon, Jay Ose, Larry Jennings and another magician whom I don't recall. Vernon was pontificating about the great merits of the Erdnase Grip for bottom dealing. (Although I respected Vernon greatly for the tremendous advances and contributions he made to the magic profession and closeup magic in particular, he was not really that "hip" to live game [i]application[/i]. That makes sense since he was first and foremost a magician, not a gambler.)

Anyway, Vernon was explaining how the Erdnase grip had great cover for the bottom deal and that pushing off the bottom card with the left ring finger enabled one to more assuredly deal a bottom without missing even when using a worn-out deck.

During Vernon's discourse, which apparently he was fond to do, Tony Giorgio walked into the room because he had heard that a pit boss from Vegas was visiting with Vernon.

In any event, Giorgio interrupts and tells Vernon he doesn't know what he is talking about, that he has a magician mentality and using the Erdnase grip in a game will get you killed. Vernon retorted back that Giorgio was just another tin horn gambler and always will be a tinhorn. (Of course this was all in good humored jest.)

Although Giorgio evidently used the mechanic's grip for bottom dealing at the Castle, he did give a nice demo of his "square john" grip for dealing bottoms in live games. He maintained one had to use such a grip to allay suspicion as the Erdnase grip would "wake the dead" in many situations.

I agreed with Giorgio on that (Giorgio had really "been there") and subsequently modified the deal he showed for my own use. It made fo a very nice bottom deal "square john" style.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 4, 2018 06:09PM)
Gambling moves are designed to go unnoticed. Interestingly enough I have seen many a gambling move that out of context from the environment you would probably think that it would never fly.

Isn't the only point in actual gambling moves to get the money? Pretty doesn't necessarily pay.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Aug 9, 2018 06:26PM)
I'm wondering where Richard Turner's grip fits into that classification.

To me, Richard Turner's grip looks and feels very different from the grips Jason describes in his Theory 11 videos on bottom dealing. I don't see it being very similar to a Master grip either, but then I don't know what constitutes a "Modified" Master grip. Maybe Jason could comment?
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Aug 9, 2018 08:14PM)
[quote]On Aug 9, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm wondering where Richard Turner's grip fits into that classification.

To me, Richard Turner's grip looks and feels very different from the grips Jason describes in his Theory 11 videos on bottom dealing. I don't see it being very similar to a Master grip either, but then I don't know what constitutes a "Modified" Master grip. Maybe Jason could comment? [/quote]

You can check out Modified Master Grip with Bottom Deal video of Shade, released by MagicTao years ago
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Aug 9, 2018 08:17PM)
[quote]On Aug 3, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Liam,
The full grip bottom deal is taught on Move Mastery Volume 3, Peter also demos the Robinson middle deal on the disc but doesn’t tip it (Paul Wilson did a brief demo of his take on it for me once, but because his hands were covered in lemon juice it wasn’t as smooth as usual) [/quote]

Thanks Bob
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Aug 11, 2018 11:56PM)
[quote]On Aug 9, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm wondering where Richard Turner's grip fits into that classification.

To me, Richard Turner's grip looks and feels very different from the grips Jason describes in his Theory 11 videos on bottom dealing. I don't see it being very similar to a Master grip either, but then I don't know what constitutes a "Modified" Master grip. Maybe Jason could comment? [/quote]

I've spent hundreds of hours around Richard watching him handle cards. Although he may be capable of dealing from a few different grips, he usually uses a mechanic's grip for bottoms. Nothing terribly special about it as I recall, apart from him dealing very nice bottoms from it.

Jason
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Aug 12, 2018 12:12AM)
[quote]On Aug 2, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:
[quote]On Aug 2, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:
Someone's been reading my notes.

Jason [/quote]

Hi Jason. There is a grip that I forgot to mention in my post - Marnase grip. After looking at it may I ask is it similar to the 1st modified Erdnase grip? This is because the forefinger is placed very close to the middle finger of the holding hand. Thank you. [/quote]

I've always felt that the deal described in [i]Marlo Without Tears[/i] is essentially just a modified-Erdnase grip (of the first variety). Marlo may have been the first to publish such a modification - I'm not sure about that though., I'd have to double check.


Jason
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Aug 12, 2018 12:27PM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

I've spent hundreds of hours around Richard watching him handle cards. Although he may be capable of dealing from a few different grips, he usually uses a mechanic's grip for bottoms. Nothing terribly special about it as I recall, apart from him dealing very nice bottoms from it.

Jason [/quote]

Hi Jason, thank you for commenting.

From watching Richard's DVDs and Penguin Live lecture, it seemed to me that his index finger ran under the deck and controlled the deck at the corner, with the other fingers running mostly parallel. There didn't seem to be much obstructing the front of the deck. I thought, maybe mistakenly, that a Mechanic's grip specifically referred to a grip with the index finger at the front of the deck, no front corner control and the inside corner at the base of the thumb.

I figured that the front corner control, or lack thereof, was what distinguished the first and second modified Erdnase grips (as explained on your Theory 11 videos). For this reason, I don't really see how the grip I thought Richard was using could be described as a Mechanic's grip. I'll have to look at it again.
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Aug 13, 2018 04:17AM)
[/quote]

I've always felt that the deal described in [i]Marlo Without Tears[/i] is essentially just a modified-Erdnase grip (of the first variety). Marlo may have been the first to publish such a modification - I'm not sure about that though., I'd have to double check.

Jason [/quote]

Thanks Jason, look forward to hearing your confirmation.
Message: Posted by: Taylor Haws (Aug 15, 2018 08:15AM)
Paul Wilson shows a full grip bottom deal in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W87Nm7PJbdE&t=330s
it is at 4:42
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Aug 19, 2018 02:15AM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote:
Paul Wilson shows a full grip bottom deal in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W87Nm7PJbdE&t=330s
it is at 4:42 [/quote]

Thanks Taylor.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Aug 19, 2018 03:31AM)
Peterson and Cag,
Only just read through the thread, thank you for making me laugh! I should also mention that Paul provides a brief description of his bottom deal on Unreal Work Volume 2 and also discusses his modifications to the Robertson deal (to make it a mechanics grip type look) in the Fred Robertson book by Peter Duffie.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Aug 19, 2018 12:55PM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2018, Taylor Haws wrote:

Paul Wilson shows a full grip bottom deal in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W87Nm7PJbdE&t=330s

It is at 4:42 [/quote]

This post is not meant to detract from Paul Wilson in any way but to objectively discuss his bottom deal technique shown herein. (The videos link does not start at 4:42. You have to back it up to 4:42 to see the start of the trick.)

Wilson has produced and been involved in a number of interesting TV videos and films exposing various gambling scams amd stories (for public consumption) and additionally no doubt is a skillful card manipulator in magician and card-man circles. However, the "full-grip" bottom deal he demonstrates on this video leaves much to be desired.

He is using what I call the "pinkie grip" where the deck is held and controlled by the left pinkie pressing the lower portion of the deck again the left palm.

The reason this bottom deal technique is questionable is he obviously extends the first three fingers of his left hand to enable the right-hand fingers to "dig in" above those left hand fingers to grab the bottom card. When using this grip, a bottom deal can be performed better and more deceptively than shown by making some modifications to the grip and the dealing technique.

However, I should add that for the magic trick in question, the deal probably is acceptable since he is not doing a bottom deal demo as such and even if the spectators see the finger flash on the bottom deal, they still don't know how he controlled the aces.

Maskelyne in [b]Sharps and Flats[/b] describes a somewhat similar full deck grip bottom deal by dealing the cards off the upper front end (or narrow end) of the deck which also not a very deceptive way to perform this manipulation.

Those who are knowledgeable and interested can experiment on their own with slightly different left-hand grips and right hand takes using the pinkie grip control. (In fact, my modification of the Giorgio square john bottom deal starts with the pinkie grip but relinquishes it for the actual right hand take.)

Once again, this post was not meant to criticize Paul Wilson or his card handling ability since he is accomplished magician and producer in his own right. It is simply to add some comments on the bottom deal technique as shown on the video.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Aug 20, 2018 05:40PM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Peterson and Cag,
Only just read through the thread, thank you for making me laugh! I should also mention that Paul provides a brief description of his bottom deal on Unreal Work Volume 2 and also discusses his modifications to the Robertson deal (to make it a mechanics grip type look) in the Fred Robertson book by Peter Duffie. [/quote]

I think you meant fred Robinson :snail:
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Aug 20, 2018 05:52PM)
[quote]On Aug 21, 2018, iamslow wrote:
[quote]On Aug 19, 2018, Bobbycash wrote:
Peterson and Cag,
Only just read through the thread, thank you for making me laugh! I should also mention that Paul provides a brief description of his bottom deal on Unreal Work Volume 2 and also discusses his modifications to the Robertson deal (to make it a mechanics grip type look) in the Fred Robertson book by Peter Duffie. [/quote]

I think you meant fred Robinson :snail: [/quote]

Correct! I blame autocorrect.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 13, 2018 03:47PM)
[quote]On Aug 9, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm wondering where Richard Turner's grip fits into that classification.

To me, Richard Turner's grip looks and feels very different from the grips Jason describes in his Theory 11 videos on bottom dealing. I don't see it being very similar to a Master grip either, but then I don't know what constitutes a "Modified" Master grip. Maybe Jason could comment? [/quote]


Just noticed this exact thing watching the Richard Turner Penguin lecture. When he teaches the bottom deal, he uses his left index finger on the corner of the deck in the same place that the Erdnase grip places the second finger, albeit just on the bottom corner. In the lecture, Richard says that this gives the ability to be relaxed and yet have total control over the deck when necessary.


[img]https://i.imgur.com/izuRc50.png[/img]
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 21, 2018 03:19PM)
Just got a hold of Damian Nieman's [i]Fast Company[/i] dvds and the second bottom he teaches uses this grip also. He uses the index finger on the corner of the deck to bow the bottom cards a little before doing the squeeze/relax thing.

For me, this really helps to keep extra cards from coming off, especially when working with a full deck. Would this be considered a modified mechanics grip? Or something different?
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Sep 22, 2018 02:52PM)
Guys, nobody in 200 years has split these hairs this finely.

First finger up front all by itself? Mechanic's Grip.
Two fingers up front that looks something like what Erdnase published? Erdnase gripish.
All four fingers on the side? Moron's grip. Excuse me, "full grip."
First finger up front and 4th finger at the back? Straddle grip.

After that you're on your own.

Jason

PS: No one is saying it's impossible to subtly vary any or all of these grips. Everyone does that. But no one renames the grip because of it.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 22, 2018 05:12PM)
Fair enough!
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 22, 2018 05:14PM)
[quote]On Sep 22, 2018, JasonEngland wrote:

Guys, nobody in 200 years has split these hairs this finely. [/quote]

LOL. Further, with the four basic grips Jason mentions, it is possible to have an almost infinite number of variations by having minute finger change positions, degrees of elevation, angle from the palm, position of the dealing thumb, etc. etc. etc.

[quote] PS: No one is saying it's impossible to subtly vary any or all of these grips. Everyone does that. But no one renames the grip because of it. [/quote]

Well...not until this thread anyway.

Come on Jason. Get with it. :yippee: :bigdance:
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Sep 23, 2018 06:38AM)
[quote]Last Laugh wrote:
For me, this really helps to keep extra cards from coming off, especially when working with a full deck. Would this be considered a modified mechanics grip? Or something different? [/quote]

I bought Steve Forte's Poker Protection recently. In the the section on false deals, he calls this grip variation a "Corner Grip."

I still think the grip still looks and feels distinctly different from the typical Mechanic's Grip with the index finger at the front.

[quote]JasonEngland wrote:
Guys, nobody in 200 years has split these hairs this finely. [/quote]

Is that really a good argument against a finer classification though? There are many disciplines of study which have benefited from adopting finer classifications centuries after their inception.

It might be redundant to have a complete, exhaustive classification for practical purposes. The classification you've presented is certainly a valuable practical guide (it certainly gave me a good conceptual foundation when first learning the bottom deal), but it might give the impression to some that those basic finger positions are the only important variable.

An comprehensive description of grips and the associated variables wouldn't help beginners, but I think the more intermediate and advanced students could benefit from that level of analysis. Experts such as yourself wouldn't have any need of it. You already understand the minutia, whether it's something you've explicitly acknowledged and studied privately, or something you are subconsciously aware of due to intuition and experience.

Maybe I'm just being overly analytical, but I think further distinction has at least helped me in my understanding. For example, I distinguish between a "Dealer's Grip" and a "Mechanic's Grip," which is something I've never seen expressed anywhere, but it definitely helped me. I shared this with Last Laugh on this forum at the following link, he said he found it helpful also.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=673769&forum=188

[quote]JasonEngland wrote:
PS: No one is saying it's impossible to subtly vary any or all of these grips. Everyone does that. But no one renames the grip because of it.[/quote]

This raises a question. How much variation is subtle and how much would require new categorization?

[quote]Cagliostro wrote:
Further, with the four basic grips Jason mentions, it is possible to have an almost infinite number of variations by having minute finger change positions, degrees of elevation, angle from the palm, position of the dealing thumb, etc. etc. etc. [/quote]

Actually, those are continuously varying parameters, so the number of variations is truly infinite. Those are all important variables, and their effects are rarely (if ever) discussed.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Sep 23, 2018 04:07PM)
Thomas,

I'm actually in favor of a finer taxonomy of grips, shuffles, double-lifts, palms, etc. I was mainly pointing out that [i]up until now[/i] no one has really bothered to break down their dealing grips any further than the 4 big categories I mentioned earlier. So to look backwards and ask, "Did magician X [i]really[/i] use a mechanic's grip? Looks more like a mechanic's grip 2.1 to me." isn't likely to gain much traction for a while, at least until a finer classification system is firmly in place.

Is it okay to look forward and differentiate your grips from "standard" grips? Of course. And I'm in favor of it, as it can provide value to new students.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Sep 25, 2018 06:18PM)
Hi Jason,

Thank you for clarifying. When I first read your earlier post, it had seemed to me to be dismissing the idea of finer classification.

On the matter of finer classification, it occurs to me that you would be in a stronger position to lead that movement than most, being recognized as both an expert and as an excellent instructor in this area. That's a pretty select group to belong to.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 25, 2018 10:33PM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:

Hi Jason,

...When I first read your earlier post, it had seemed to me to be dismissing the idea of finer classification.

On the matter of finer classification, it occurs to me that you would be in a stronger position to lead that movement than most, being recognized as both an expert and as an excellent instructor in this area...[/quote]

I agree. I can think of no better person to undertake classification of the infinite minutia of bottom deal grip positioning, no matter how many years the undertaking may take. My only suggestion to Jason at this point would be for him to hire a research team of dedicated bottom deal professionals to assist with this momentous task.

I can only hope that Jason will keep us updated on his daily progress in this important research and classification endeavor. :hmm:
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 26, 2018 12:21AM)
I know you are merely being facetious here, but let's not lose sight of the point. The bottom deal is a complicated and idiosyncratic sleight, and the devil is in the details. I know personally, the 'corner grip' really helped me, and though it's a 'minor' variation, it's the detail that helped me get to be able to deal a bottom from the entire deck. Clearly, it works for Richard Turner and Damian Nieman as well.
Message: Posted by: TH10111 (Sep 26, 2018 12:58AM)
Should this granular dichotomy of grips be agnostic of hand size?

If not, then hand shapes and sizes would also have to be categorised.

To what extent are the deviations from 'the big four' simply down to differences in the users hands?

Maybe there are only a few grips to be added to the main list, like the Modified Erdnase and the Master grip, and alongside each could be a description of finer adjustments for hand size?
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Sep 26, 2018 05:51AM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

I agree. I can think of no better person to undertake classification of the infinite minutia of bottom deal grip positioning, no matter how many years the undertaking may take. My only suggestion to Jason at this point would be for him to hire a research team of dedicated bottom deal professionals to assist with this momentous task.

I can only hope that Jason will keep us updated on his daily progress in this important research and classification endeavor. :hmm: [/quote]

Classification of infinite minutia need not be an infinite, or even a particularly time consuming task.

The efficient way to do it would be to identify the variables which affect the bottom deal, there are only finitely many including those you have mentioned earlier. Now, demonstrate typical a typical value of that variable, and demonstrate the extremes in either direction (through pictures, video, whatever). Discuss the effects of changing this variable value within that range. Mention if any positions are unnatural or odd looking to spectators, or if they are likely to result in repetitive strain or not. Repeat for the other variables.

Such a classification wouldn't need to be exhaustive. Discussing the effects of the most important variables would be more than sufficient. As a book, I'd be very surprised if it went over 200 pages. The point would be to provide a resource to help serious students improve. It would likely be a niche product and likely wouldn't be priced cheaply.

For somebody to write this book and have it be accepted as the canonical reference on the topic for advanced students, that person would need to be a recognized expert in bottom dealing with a deep understanding of the variations of the move, and be an excellent instructor also. They would need to be able to demonstrate standard handlings and extreme variations on those handlings. It would be acceptable also if the author had access to other experts to demonstrate the handlings they were not comfortable with themselves. It would be very helpful if they wrote in a careful and considered manner.

Now, who could really do it? I can't. I'm not an expert, nor am I recognized as one. My understanding is that of a developing student. There's a great many handlings I cannot demonstrate well and I don't have access to other people who could. I think I write clearly and I'm an experienced instructor in other fields, but that's the extent of my qualifications here. Nobody would, or should, take anything I have to say about the move above the word of the experts.

What about Jason? He can, he meets all criteria. If he's looking for a book project to undertake, it's an idea. If he's not interested, maybe some other expert would be interested in the project, or maybe not.

A finer classification of sleights for pedagogy won't be adopted until some recognized experts get behind the idea and push. It's up to them if that's something they're interested in doing.
Message: Posted by: KardSharp89 (Oct 15, 2018 08:49AM)
[quote]On Aug 3, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2018, Peterson wrote:

Some say to use whatever grip they want and nobody will care if it looks natural. Same say to use the grip that everybody else is using. Personally, I would choke if I saw somebody busting out the good old Erdnase Grip in a card game, or even the "Straddle grip". [/quote]


No disrespect meant to anyone on the BB, but it is sometimes surprising how some magicians and demonstrators are misinformed about the gambling demos they do. The reason is many simply lack experience in live game activity.

If the grip works and it fits into the games one plays without suspicion, what difference does I make what grip or grip designation one uses.

Even a highly respected magician like Dai Vernon was sometimes in error about comparing magician demo moves and live actions game techniques. I recall a great many years ago at the Magic Castle, I was sitting at a card table in a "private" room at that time with Vernon, Jay Ose, Larry Jennings and another magician whom I don't recall. Vernon was pontificating about the great merits of the Erdnase Grip for bottom dealing. (Although I respected Vernon greatly for the tremendous advances and contributions he made to the magic profession and closeup magic in particular, he was not really that "hip" to live game [i]application[/i]. That makes sense since he was first and foremost a magician, not a gambler.)

Anyway, Vernon was explaining how the Erdnase grip had great cover for the bottom deal and that pushing off the bottom card with the left ring finger enabled one to more assuredly deal a bottom without missing even when using a worn-out deck.

During Vernon's discourse, which apparently he was fond to do, Tony Giorgio walked into the room because he had heard that a pit boss from Vegas was visiting with Vernon.

In any event, Giorgio interrupts and tells Vernon he doesn't know what he is talking about, that he has a magician mentality and using the Erdnase grip in a game will get you killed. Vernon retorted back that Giorgio was just another tin horn gambler and always will be a tinhorn. (Of course this was all in good humored jest.)

Although Giorgio evidently used the mechanic's grip for bottom dealing at the Castle, he did give a nice demo of his "square john" grip for dealing bottoms in live games. He maintained one had to use such a grip to allay suspicion as the Erdnase grip would "wake the dead" in many situations.

I agreed with Giorgio on that (Giorgio had really "been there") and subsequently modified the deal he showed for my own use. It made fo a very nice bottom deal "square john" style. [/quote]

Did you realize at the time that you were witnessing a great moment in card manipulation history? Cool story!
Message: Posted by: Taylor Haws (Nov 7, 2018 01:08PM)
Found this on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otqo6SrYdMw
Message: Posted by: TH10111 (Nov 7, 2018 05:38PM)
...not a big fan of the neck-tying action.

One advantage of using a full grip with a take that extracts the card from the front of the deck, is that it removes any finger flash.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Nov 8, 2018 12:08AM)
On the subject of bottom deal grips. The first time I heard the term mechanics grip was from John Scarne. he dealt 2nds much like Steve Forte and others from Standard mechanics grip. Because he had large hands when he dealt a bottom he shifted his left second finger to the upper right corner. However he did not grip the corner he still gripped the deck with first finger and palm. He still called this a mechanics grip. Modified erdnase grips the deck between the second finger and palm. Any comments?
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Nov 8, 2018 02:58AM)
[quote]On Nov 8, 2018, cbharrelson wrote:
On the subject of bottom deal grips. The first time I heard the term mechanics grip was from John Scarne. he dealt 2nds much like Steve Forte and others from Standard mechanics grip. Because he had large hands when he dealt a bottom he shifted his left second finger to the upper right corner. However he did not grip the corner he still gripped the deck with first finger and palm. He still called this a mechanics grip. Modified erdnase grips the deck between the second finger and palm. Any comments? [/quote]

IMO any grip with first and second finger at the front will belong to Erdnase Grip category
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 8, 2018 01:52PM)
[quote]On Nov 8, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:

IMO any grip with first and second finger at the front will belong to Erdnase Grip category [/quote]

Not to be overshadowed by Erdnase and his grip for the bottom deal, many years ago I came up with what I immodestly named the Cagliostro Grip Bottom Deal.

(Attaching one's name to a grip or technique give added credibility and elevates one to the level of being an expert card table man. It further ensures one gets proper credit for his accomplishment, regardless of how trivial the achievement or how inane one's postulations on same may be.)

Instead of having the left middle finger on the upper right-hand corner of the deck, the CAG grip brilliantly places the left RING finger on the upper right-hand corner. This grip reduces finger flash [i]completely[/i] as the left little finger is essentially held straight on the bottom of the deck and the first three finger on the front of the deck block the bottom deal action. This technique is so good, you can challenge any advertised card table expert to detect the difference between a bottom deal and a top deal, even when looking directly at the hands from the front, sides or any other angle. Indeed, aside from myself, there are only two other experts in the world who have master this imperceptible technique.

Also note by completely eliminating finger flash and sound difference with this grip, it obviates the need for first joint finger amputation as was frequently done back in the day by dedicated bottom deal pros to reduce finger flash.

I originally renamed the Erdnase grip the Grotesque Grip since it was so bizarre to look at. Not to be overshadowed by other "experts," who have come up with "advanced" versions of the bottom deal, I renamed my extraordinary and imperceptible bottom deal the [i]Cagliostro Advanced Grotesque Grip Bottom Deal Par Excellence[/i].

(For those intrepid souls who wish to tackle this technique, be aware I estimate it takes about 8 to 10 years of assiduous practice to achieve virtuoso mastery. Of course, since I play the Banjo, I got it down if about 10 minutes.)

Just a little bit of history for the edification of the membership.

PS...For a price, I sell a course for those who wish to learn to play the Banjo. Interested parties may PM me for further information or find me on YouTube.)
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Nov 8, 2018 02:12PM)
Sorry to break it down for you Cag, but the three finger in the front deal was used by real hustlers before you were even born. I remember Vernon talked about the guy from Kentucky who was using this grip in casino environment. The only way Vernon could find him is by asking a little girl about the location of the governor's mansion. Can you believe this luck? That little girl turned out to be the daughter of Erdnase, but that is a completely different story.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 8, 2018 02:37PM)
[quote]On Nov 8, 2018, Peterson wrote:
Can you believe this luck? That little girl turned out to be the daughter of Erdnase, but that is a completely different story. [/quote]

Peterson, You are incredibly well informed. The only thing you were not aware of was "that little girl" was my great grandmother.

Oh, I see...you were aware of that. That was what your reference to "a completely different story" was all about.
Message: Posted by: ssibal (Nov 8, 2018 10:04PM)
[quote]On Nov 8, 2018, cbharrelson wrote:
On the subject of bottom deal grips. The first time I heard the term mechanics grip was from John Scarne. he dealt 2nds much like Steve Forte and others from Standard mechanics grip. Because he had large hands when he dealt a bottom he shifted his left second finger to the upper right corner. However he did not grip the corner he still gripped the deck with first finger and palm. He still called this a mechanics grip. Modified erdnase grips the deck between the second finger and palm. Any comments? [/quote]

There’s an old short where Scarne exposes various moves and one of them is the bottom deal. The deal is shown from a few different angles and his grip looked more like an variation of an Erdnase grip than a mechanics.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Nov 8, 2018 10:54PM)
Https://youtu.be/WbTvDP8Sa6E?t=174
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 9, 2018 02:25PM)
Scarne had fast hands and was quite skillful during the time period in which he flourished, which was a long time ago. I never really liked his bottom deal as he used basically a Erdnase type grip and everytime he dealt a bottom, he telegraphed it because he would extend the ring and middle fingers of his dealing hand when reaching for the base.

Have any of you guys figured out how he controlled the 4 acres to the top after inserting them in different parts of the deck and shuffling the cards face up. He fooled a lot of magicians with that one.

As a youngster I was wowed by a lot of this razzmatazz nonsense, but when I grew up it all changed.

But nice videos of Scarne.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Nov 10, 2018 11:01AM)
I figured it out some time ago. In fact this video shows 2 of my favorite Scarne tricks. That one and Switchcraft which he did on the beer commercial. My other favorite was his version of cutting the aces where he shuffles and lets a spectator cut the deck. Cag like you I did not favor his bottom deal. I chose Mickey McDougals as I found it more practical under fire.
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Nov 10, 2018 06:49PM)
[quote]On Nov 10, 2018, cbharrelson wrote:
I chose Mickey McDougals as I found it more practical under fire. [/quote]

Haven't heard of Mickey before.

Ah yes regarding under fire, check out these 2 videos.

https://youtu.be/h2bEGte1Tso
https://youtu.be/uQfpqA1LKzM
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Nov 11, 2018 12:03AM)
That deal would work under fire. one way I used the bottom was in 2 handed 5 stud. honest shuffle and cut bottom peek bottom deal opponents down card.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 11, 2018 11:01AM)
[quote]On Nov 10, 2018, cbharrelson wrote:

...one way I used the bottom was in 2 handed 5 stud. honest shuffle and cut bottom peek bottom deal opponents down card. [/quote]

Oh c'mon. A ploy like this does not excite. It does not titillate. It will not get you a gambling expert hero status button or get you invited to the next Magic Convention or Gaming Protection seminar. They will not write books about your exploits traveling the world beating all who dare to challenge you, or expound on your spending years in a Tibetan Monetary assiduously practicing to achieve an undetectable bottom deal.

No...no adulation, no hero badge, no sexy dancing girls for you...

However, it seems it would achieve the ignoble purpose of winning all the money in the scenario described. :cool:
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Nov 11, 2018 05:44PM)
Not looking for one. Merely pointed out one way to use the bottom deal under fire. Only one bottom deal in a round of play. Easy to misdirect one opponent and advantage equivalent dealing a marked deck.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Nov 11, 2018 10:12PM)
[quote]On Nov 11, 2018, cbharrelson wrote:
Not looking for one. Merely pointed out one way to use the bottom deal under fire. Only one bottom deal in a round of play. Easy to misdirect one opponent and advantage equivalent dealing a marked deck. [/quote]

I think he was complimenting your play, albeit with a great deal of sarcasm aimed at the magician/demo crowd.
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Nov 11, 2018 10:55PM)
[quote]On Nov 11, 2018, cbharrelson wrote:
That deal would work under fire[/quote]

It did work. The 2 guys you saw on the videos are not magicians.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Nov 12, 2018 01:18AM)
Yes you are right about Cag. It is well known about his ongoing debates with the demo people. I really enjoy the debates. I personally respect the skill needed to do a good demo and I think they have it very hard in the day of cameras. The demo must be visually deceptive and they announce ahead of time what they are doing and definantly leave themselves open to criticism.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 12, 2018 04:56PM)
[quote]On Nov 11, 2018, cbharrelson wrote:

...I personally respect the skill needed to do a good demo and I think they have it very hard in the day of cameras.The demo must be visually deceptive and they announce ahead of time what they are doing and defiantly leave themselves open to criticism. [/quote]

I agree. Of course, some of these demos are shot from favorable angles which hide any defects in their performance. However, some are spot on performed by some very skillful card table manipulators.

Personally, I prefer demos that have a good story line presentation, where the moves are used surreptitiously and are more of a performance rather than just simply a demo of a move. That has its place but it can get to be a little tedious after a while.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Nov 14, 2018 12:33PM)
Cag I am with you on that one demos need to be entertaining and moves should be used to mystify.