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Topic: Fast Jack's Open Palm
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 18, 2018 05:37PM)
Been playing with the 'open palm' dice switch that Fast Jack Farrell teaches in his Penguin lecture. I thought the dice looked really small in his hands and then realized that he's a very tall dude and has large, if lanky hands.

Is this switch something that is dependent on having larger hands? I cannot seem to get the dice to lock in the same place as he does for the life of me. Maybe I just need more practice. I have average sized hands.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 21, 2018 03:26AM)
I think I've answered my own question, reading his book I see he says that big hands are required.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Sep 21, 2018 08:12AM)
I'm not really a dice guy, but I can do the open palm switch. I don't think I have particularly big hands, my fingers are pretty long but slender.

Here's a photo of my hand holding two 3/4" dice in the open palm position, judge for yourself:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xdbdhcukye53nbw/20180921_135439.jpg?dl=0

The hardest part of the move for me is correctly concealing the held out dice the the starting position without leaking between the curled fingers.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 21, 2018 11:17AM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:

Is this switch something that is dependent on having larger hands? [/quote]

I think it depends on the size of the dice used. I have average size hands and learned the Thumb Switch (Open Palm Switch) together with the Palm Switch when I was 15 years old. Learned it right out of [b]Scarne on Dice[/b] using 5/8 inch drugstore dice and had no problem with the move after some practice.

Years later, when I was in my early twenties working in a casino on the Las Vegas Strip, and old mob bust out man privately demonstrated the Thumb and Tip Switch using regulation 3/4 inch casino dice and it looked great. These were the same size dice he used when busting out and as I recall he had average size hands. However, I would think that when using larger dice, the angles become important to prevent leaking.

Funny story. After I learned the move at 15 years of age, I wanted to try it out in a game. I had four 5/8 inch drugstore dice and started a dice game in the school yard for pennies with one pair, secretly keeping the other pair in my pocket. I wasn't looking the cheat anyone, both pairs were legitimate, but I was curious to see if I could do the thumb switch under fire.

When it came my time to shoot the dice, I had no problem thumb palming the pair to be switched, but I was so nervous my hands were sweating profusely. Because of that, and because I had held the palmed dice tightly in my hand for some time, I could not release the second pair on the toss. They were sticking to my hand badly. So I had to rub both hands together to "unstick" the dice while blowing on my hands "for luck." Thereafter, everything went smoothly with the thumb switch and I went in and out several times.

However, that is not the end of the story. When I went to put the palmed dice back in my pocket, they hit the side of my coat and one die fell to the ground. I tried to conceal it but someone noticed it. So I said, "Oh, I brought a second pair in case the first gets a little worn. Here, keep them on the side in case someone wants to change dice for luck."

I know that 99.9% of folks on this BB are demonstrators and have not, and never will, try to move under fire in any serious game. Demos are mostly fun and games, so most have no idea of the crazy things that can and do happen under fire, and usually when least expected. And...you need big cojones. (Don't ever underestimate the "cojones factor.")

"The best-laid plans of mice and men oft go astray..." (Robert Burns, 18th century Scottish poet.)
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 21, 2018 03:10PM)
[quote]On Sep 21, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm not really a dice guy, but I can do the open palm switch. I don't think I have particularly big hands, my fingers are pretty long but slender.

Here's a photo of my hand holding two 3/4" dice in the open palm position, judge for yourself:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xdbdhcukye53nbw/20180921_135439.jpg?dl=0

The hardest part of the move for me is correctly concealing the held out dice the the starting position without leaking between the curled fingers. [/quote]


Hmm, we appear to have the same size and type of hands. Not sure why I can't get the dice to stay put! I'll keep at it I guess - thanks!




Cagliostro - great story. Sounds like you were thinking on your feet, even then.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Sep 22, 2018 06:02AM)
[quote]On Sep 21, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Hmm, we appear to have the same size and type of hands. Not sure why I can't get the dice to stay put! I'll keep at it I guess - thanks!
[/quote]

Glad the picture helped motivate you. Do you have dry skin? Maybe that might be an issue. I don't have that problem so I can't say for sure.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 23, 2018 05:03PM)
Sometimes I have dry skin as I wash my hands a lot, but even using lotion, I'm not getting it to work.

I can't seem to get any purchase on the end towards the index finger without the dice popping out.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 23, 2018 06:12PM)
[quote]On Sep 23, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:

I can't seem to get any purchase on the end towards the index finger without the dice popping out. [/quote]

I think Erdnase says something to the effect that if the resourceful professional can't change the method, he changes the timing. Let's use that thinking to come up with a solution for you.

There are four.

The first in to increase the size of your hands. I have no viable suggestion as to how to do that, however it is something you may want to consider. Maybe they have some type of hand stretchers available on eBay.

The second is to reduce the size of the dice you are using. This would be too rational and logical a solution for me to consider, however, one can go all the way down to Pew Wee dice. I know Pew Wee dice are viable and are used by some black hustlers in their nationhood dice games. The second advantage of Pee Wee dice is in case of a rumble, they are easy to swallow.

The third alternative is to just keep practicing until you master the move, even if it takes the next 50 years or so to master.

The only other option is to forget about dice moves and stick with cards.

There you are, the only four options possible.

As ever, I hope this is helpful.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 23, 2018 06:51PM)
Lol, thanks.

I did actually just read an article about a technique where guys are having their legs broken, and some apparatus is inserted that slowly stretches and regrows the bones over several months and they can put on up to 3 inches of height. All you have to do is pay $100,000, go through extended excruciating pain and be wheelchair bound for 3 or 4 months.


As far as the dice go, I'm not sure if it's actually a size thing - as I see Thomas has hands that are very close in size (judging by the dice), so unless he just has looser skin, I might be missing something in terms of what is holding the dice in on the index finger side. I can get it to work with more of a thumb palm (bent thumb) but that's clearly a different technique.

Anyway - I'll keep playing with it.
Message: Posted by: french_nobody (Sep 24, 2018 04:31AM)
Hi

I think you just have to work the lock's part and adapt if needed.

I have 3 ways to put the dice in position ; one easy but not so good, the Jack farell's things, and the same a little bit modified.

I work on it regulary and it's not as perfect as it must be. So keeo training ! and we have approximatively the same hand's size.

Im not really legit so it's just an opinion
Message: Posted by: Marlin1894 (Sep 24, 2018 12:22PM)
I have fairly small, and kind of fat, hands but I've never really had any problem thumb palming 3/4" inch cubes. If I look at it I can see that I use the tip of the thumb to grip and push the cubes backwards into the pad of the hand. It's a very secure grip and quite natural looking. If I were to hold a pair of dice with my palm flat and horizontal to the floor and let someone slap the back of my hand, they would have a pretty hard time knocking them out.

I'm a little baffled as to how Thomas is actually gripping those dice. It looks good, I just don't see how the grip is being applied. Then again, I've never seen a real description of the "correct" way to do it.

I was able to grab a screen shot from and old video that might give you and idea how I do it. Bear in mind, I was not trying to show or explain the grip and the video is 10 years old, so it's not very clear.

[url=https://imgbb.com/][img]https://image.ibb.co/hYUBnU/TP.jpg[/img][/url]
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 24, 2018 01:30PM)
Thanks for the ideas.

I can definitely thumb palm them too, it's the open palm (straight thumb) style that's eluding me.
Message: Posted by: Marlin1894 (Sep 24, 2018 01:30PM)
My bad, sorry. I misunderstood what you were trying to do.
Message: Posted by: french_nobody (Sep 24, 2018 02:26PM)
I send you a PM ! hope this help !
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 24, 2018 03:07PM)
[quote]On Sep 24, 2018, Marlin1894 wrote:
My bad, sorry. I misunderstood what you were trying to do. [/quote]

No sweat - thanks for being helpful either way!



[quote]On Sep 24, 2018, french_nobody wrote:
I send you a PM ! hope this help ! [/quote]

Thanks, I'll keep at it.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Sep 25, 2018 05:15PM)
[quote]On Sep 24, 2018, Marlin1894 wrote:

I'm a little baffled as to how Thomas is actually gripping those dice. It looks good, I just don't see how the grip is being applied. Then again, I've never seen a real description of the "correct" way to do it. [/quote]

It's getting a little late here for me to write a full description of the palm and the switch right now, but I'll try to write something up in the next few days. I'll try to take pictures to accompany the description also. Hopefully that would be of some help to you and to Last Laugh.

The dice are quite secure in my hand when I perform the open palm. Actually, more secure in my hand than when I try the thumb palm position you've shown, but I haven't really practiced switching with that grip.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Sep 26, 2018 11:09AM)
I have some time now, so I'll describe the palm and the switch as best I can.

I'm be using these two pairs of dice:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3694kqj954mtbo/20180926_155536.jpg?dl=0

The purple pair are just a hair smaller than the red pair though both are nominally 3/4". I'll be using this orientation where the dice are aligned with each other in order to describe where I'm exerting pressure on dice.

First, it's important to understand the pressure that's being applied to the dice in the open palm. In the open palm, pressure is exerted by the thumb and the side of the palm into adjacent faces on each die. The grip is quite secure, but is not tight. Exerting too much pressure into adjacent faces will result in die being squeezed out of the grip.

Consider this picture:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2z03xp3s6935txv/20180926_155820.jpg?dl=0


Here I'm holding a single die by adjacent faces with my thumb and forefinger. If I pinch in this grip, the die will fall. However, with gentle pressure, the grip is surprisingly secure. I can move my hand and the die will not drop.

With this in mind, try to grip a single die between the thumb and the side of the palm by exerting gentle pressure into adjacent faces. Try to do this in various positions along the length of the thumb.

For example, here is a shallow grip (near the thumb tip):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yyz5zahe8txni8f/20180926_155651.jpg?dl=0

Here is an intermediate grip (middle of the thumb):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g7guqz9nap7zf6/20180926_155658.jpg?dl=0

Here is a deep grip:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1vebb227u58b5te/20180926_155709.jpg?dl=0


The deep grip causes some skin of the base of the thumb to contact the innermost face of the die. The grip for two dice is applied similarly, with one die in the shallow grip position and one die in the deep grip position:

The sixes are the innermost faces on each die. The ones point in the direction of my fingers. The fours point out. Light pressure is exerted into the twos and threes of the dice with the thumb and side of the palm respectively. There is some skin contact with the six of the die in the deep grip position. I do not attempt to grip the one of the die in the shallow position by bending my thumb.

The grip is secure:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vf8an400h9rphot/20180926_155949.jpg?dl=0

If you're comfortable with the open palm position for the two dice, then attempt the switch. The purple dice begin in a finger palm position. To find this position, I recommend picking up these dice between the first and fourth fingers as shown:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9v29gwl2ceunlve/20180926_160055.jpg?dl=0

Now, curl the fingers into this position:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k34k4js9wn2xgdv/20180926_160123.jpg?dl=0

Holding the dice between the first and fourth fingers inn this manner limits the chance of leaking on the fourth finger side. We begin with the purple dice in the starting position:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4sad06t6vcx5rm1/20180926_160143.jpg?dl=0

We approach the red dice with the loose fist and open the thumb and first finger to grip the dice:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d47fu00ptfle9wm/20180926_160331.jpg?dl=0

Opening the thumb and first finger in this manner allows for the held out dice to flash on the thumb side. I keep my hand low and open the grip near the red dice to prevent this, so the red dice block line of sight to the purple dice.

Taking the red dice:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnsfes0cqyd97vr/20180926_160343.jpg?dl=0

To lock the dice into position, I contact the outer face of the outer dice (the one) with the tip of my index finger and push the dice toward the base of the thumb:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/02sbrgd6cgum2e6/20180926_160347.jpg?dl=0

Now, the secure the grip, the outer die is rotated 90 degrees:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n78cxkds345nfod/20180926_160359.jpg?dl=0

Initially the three face upward. After the rotation, the six faces upward and and the three faces in the direction of the fingers.

An exposed view of the rotation:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xpcl14btbelau27/20180926_160409.jpg?dl=0

An exposed view of completed rotation:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dpkd3yula57zlgv/20180926_160420.jpg?dl=0

The hand with both pairs of dice concealed:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dpkd3yula57zlgv/20180926_160420.jpg?dl=0

The thumb applies gentle pressure to the adjacent faces to secure the open palm grip. To release the purple dice, simply extend the fingers:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/00kmkc00dyr29zb/20180926_160452.jpg?dl=0

Obviously, the purple dice would be released in the low and fast to prevent any exposure of the red dice.

This is the final position of the red dice in the hand:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zyrncl1vakh5glm/20180926_160549.jpg?dl=0

By picking up the purple dice with the first and fourth finger as described above, the open palm switch can be reversed, taking the purple dice into the loose fist position and releasing the red dice from the open palm position.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 26, 2018 04:41PM)
Thanks so much, that really helps. I wasn't getting the thumb's role, rather I was trying to get purchase with the base of the forefinger. I can definitely hold them in as you describe.

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this!


I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like there is something else going on with Fast Jack here :


[img]https://i.imgur.com/YbcTXQM.png[/img]
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Sep 26, 2018 05:12PM)
[quote]On Sep 26, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Thanks so much, that really helps. I wasn't getting the thumb's role, rather I was trying to get purchase with the base of the forefinger. I can definitely hold them in as you describe.

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this![/quote]

Glad to help.

[quote]On Sep 26, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like there is something else going on with Fast Jack here :

... [/quote]

I think Jack is reinforcing the grip by applying gentle pressure with the base of the first finger. That might provide a little more security, but it's not crucial. The grip is plenty secure with just the gentle pressure on the adjacent faces.

I can hold the dice in position with pressure from the base of the forefinger alone. The grip isn't quite as secure, and I can't keep the hand flat if I do that. The thumb needs to run along the sides of the dice to prevent leaking anyway, so it may as well provide gentle pressure on the adjacent faces.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 5, 2018 01:25PM)
Thomas Gilroy did an incredible job of explaining and showing how to thumb palm two dice. Evidently this is easy for some and very difficult for others and I don't understand why. However without in any way of being boastful or to cast any aspersions on those who may have had difficulty with this move, let me briefly tell my experience with the thumb switch, (or open palm switch). This can possible stimulate others to write about their experience with learning moves - any moves for that matter.

It also may help others who may think the thumb switch is a very imposing or near impossible move, or are apprehensive learning this switch.

I learned the thumb switch when I was 14-15 years old from a one-page description and one or two still photos from [b]Scarne On Dice[/b].

At the time I was learning magic and practicing with coins, balls, thimbles and silks in addition to cards. I had learned and was practicing the classic palm and the thumb palm with coins, balls and thimbles and the back and front palm in conjunction with split fans with cards plus various flourishes.

However, I was fascinated with gambling techniques so when I read Scarne's description of the Palm Switch and Thumb Switch in his dice book, I ran out and bought two pairs of 5/8 inch dice from the local five and dime store. When I got home I could not wait to try out the two dice switches (in addition to the control shots - which is another story perhaps for another time).

The thumb switch took one to two tries to be able to do it proficiently and to thumb palm the dice securely. It was really that easy to do probably because I had been using the move with coins and thimbles and because I was using 5/8 inch dice.

In 5 about minutes it was a "piece of cake" to do that switch. I could easily place the right hand flat on the table, fingers naturally extended with no bend in the thumb to grip the dice. The palm switch took some work though, even with 5/8 inch dice. (Later, when I became conversant with professional dice hustlers, they all used the Tip Switch instead of the Palm Switch with the larger casino sized dice, plus the Thumb Switch. Scarne did not mention the Tip Switch and I don't think he knew it at the time of his writing his book.)

Being fascinated by the switches and control shots, I then ordered some 11/16 and 3/4 inch casino sized Ts with squares to match, in addition to [i]How to Control Fair Dice[/i] from the KC Card Company.

The Palm Switch with casino sized dice was impossible for me to do. The Tip Switch was learned later in life, but the Thumb Switch was just about as easy with 11/6 and 3/4 inch dice. Just took a little practice to get used to the larger sized dice and one had to watch his angles more. (By the way, doing these moves under fire is a totally different ballgame.)

[i]I am not telling this story to in any way disparage anyone who was or is having trouble learning the Thumb Switch or any switch for the matter, nor in any way to tout my prowess. That is not my intent nor is it the point of the story.[/i]

The point is, for some this move (and perhaps other moves) is relatively easy to master and for others it is apparently hard and I really can't get a handle on why.

Was it the thumb switch this easy for me because I was practicing similar moves with coins? Was it because I started out with 5/8 inch dice? Was it because I was practicing piano and the scales for one - two hours per day and that strengthened my hands and fingers? Or are some things simply easier for some than for others?


Curious???

Any ideas on this from members, both for learning this particular move or for other moves with cards or dice they have mastered or tried to master?

Might be interesting to get some input or ideas on this concept.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 5, 2018 04:06PM)
Well for what it's worth, I've been able to get farther along with this. I can now hold the dice in the open palm position tightly and comfortably. I can't yet pick them up on the fly with the little locking thing that Fast Jack does, but that will come. FWIW - for me to feel that it's very locked, I do need to use the base of my index finger just like you see in the Fast Jack image.

It just sort of clicked for me after Thomas' description. I was just missing a part of the picture.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/XQU0UST.jpg[/img]

Thumb palm is no problem with either size of dice for me, though it doesn't feel quite as sturdy (and requires a slight bend of the thumb of course, which is a tell)

[img]https://i.imgur.com/UIu10OR.jpg[/img]


Finally - can someone tip me the tip switch? Not familiar with that one, unless it's the same as the the drop switch?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 5, 2018 07:11PM)
[quote]On Oct 5, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:

...Finally - can someone tip me the tip switch? Not familiar with that one, unless it's the same as the the drop switch? [/quote]

It is.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 5, 2018 09:20PM)
Ah okay. So in your experience the thumb and tip were the most common?

Interesting, I guess that makes sense as the open palm is a little more idiosyncratic. In the Fast Jack Penguin lecture, he claims that the drop/tip switch was more dangerous and easier to spill from, but I'm sure that's subjective.

He also says that some consider the thumb and open palm to refer to the same thing, but no doubt they are different.

In regards to your question, I think for many of these moves, having a history of sleight of hand does make a big difference in their acquisition.

For me, I think the open palm was giving me trouble specifically because it's not very similar to anything done with coins and such (that I'm aware of at least).
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 5, 2018 09:24PM)
The Thumb Switch and the Open Palm Switch are the same. I can see no difference.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 5, 2018 11:57PM)
Fast Jack describes them as different in his lecture. He says, quote, "A lot of guys say they do the Open Palm but they don't. This is the move they use. They use the Open Thumb".

This is a screen grab of 'the move they use'
[img]https://i.imgur.com/QnXEI8H.png[/img]

The way I understand it, the Thumb involves holding the dice between the upper pad of the thumb and the base of the thumb (exaggerated for emphasis here):

[img]https://i.imgur.com/qaM5N3G.jpg[/img]

He then demonstrates what he calls the Open Palm and shows that the dice are held between the base of the forefinger and the base of the thumb with some amount of pinching along the edges of the dice in the crotch of the thumb.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/YbcTXQM.png[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/vim0U5P.jpg[/img]
The pad of the thumb isn't involved and the thumb can be straight as opposed to notably bent.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 6, 2018 10:30AM)
[quote]On Oct 5, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:

Fast Jack describes them as different in his lecture. He says, quote, "A lot of guys say they do the Open Palm but they don't. This is the move they use. They use the Open Thumb"...

...He then demonstrates what he calls the Open Palm and shows that the dice are held between the base of the forefinger and the base of the thumb with some amount of pinching along the edges of the dice in the crotch of the thumb.

The pad of the thumb isn't involved and the thumb can be straight as opposed to notably bent. [/quote]

Magicians and demonstrators debate this type nomenclature endlessly and for academic discussion it is okay and sometimes serves a purpose. But rather that parse words, when I refer to the Thumb Switch, I am referring to the move Jack calls the Open Palm Switch in which the thumb is held STRAIGHT. The tip of the thumb plays no part in holding the dice.

I think using the tip of the thumb to hold the dice is very amateurish and poor technique. If fact, I have only seen it done once that way by a magician doing a demo, and a couple of hustlers that I met that came in from Rhode Island. (These guys also used the tip of the forefinger to jam and hold the dice into the thumb crotch when doing a money switch which was used when hustling private games.)

The casino dice hustlers I knew who used this move to bust-out in gambling spots in the US, Cuba and Vegas in the old days, called it the Thumb Switch or it was simply a switch or gypsy.

The thumb is [i]always[/i] held straight for this move.

Hope this clarifies what I am talking about.

"A rose by any other name is still a rose." (Quote by some old English bloke who wrote some plays. Can't quite recall his name though.) :eek:
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 6, 2018 03:34PM)
[quote]On Oct 6, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:


Hope this clarifies what I am talking about.
[/quote]
Indeed it does, thanks!
Message: Posted by: Thomas Gilroy (Oct 7, 2018 11:28AM)
[quote]On Oct 5, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
Thomas Gilroy did an incredible job of explaining and showing how to thumb palm two dice. [/quote]

Thank you.

Honestly, I didn't find the open palm switch to be particularly difficult when I started. Actually, I rarely find any sleight difficult if I can understand precisely what I'm trying to achieve.

I've always been naturally dexterous. I have played guitar for about 18 years, and while it feels boastful and self-aggrandizing to say it, I have virtuoso level technique. I have spent thousands of hours practicing, in particular during my teenage years. I'm also highly focused and analytical by nature and I have developed an explicit conceptual understanding of the physical problems of playing that instrument, and I have engineered technical solutions to the majority of those problems.

When learning sleights, I just take the same approach as I do when practicing my guitar technique. I try to get a clear, conceptual understanding of what I need my hands to do and why. I watch experts, and make careful note of their methods. I listen to what they say, but I also study their positions and movements. Often, experts understand fine details on an intuitive, subconscious level. I try to recognize all of those details.

I consider the differences between my hands and those of the experts, and try to determine what must be adjusted or modified for my anatomy. I practice the movements slowly, with full focus and with the correct rhythm. For sleights, that usually involves a mirror. Then, when I have that sequence internalized, I perform many repetitions of that movement sequence and work up to tempo.

Sometimes I am able to vary, extend or further develop a move based on an understanding of the mechanics principles. I independently discovered both the Vernon "dead hand" bottom palm and the Earnest Earick bottom palm based on my understanding of the Erdnase bottom palm.

I am not a magician or demonstrator nor am I any kind of hustler. I practice sleights because I enjoy practicing sleights. I find it cathartic, and I can do it almost anywhere. If I had to make time to develop the necessary skills to be proficient in those disciplines beyond sleight of hand, maybe I wouldn't have progressed as fast as I have. If I cared more about sleight of hand and less about mathematics, music and martial arts, maybe I would progress faster.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 13, 2018 02:57AM)
Question for Cagliostro and anyone else who does this move:

Do you rotate the front dice when getting them into position as Fast Jack does?

I watched Steve Forte do the move in the GPS, and it doesn't look like he does. Granted, the angle isn't totally clear in GPS, so it's possible that he might...
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 13, 2018 03:38AM)
*Die

Rats - I hate it when people misuse plurals such as 'dice', and look I did it myself...
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 13, 2018 07:59AM)
[quote]On Oct 13, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Question for Cagliostro and anyone else who does this move:

Do you rotate the front dice when getting them into position as Fast Jack does? [/quote]

Been quite some time since I watched the Fast Jack Penguin lecture and don't have the time to go through it to find out what you are referring to. But the quick answer is, I do not rotate the front die when I do the move. Both dice slide directly into position. Prior to lining up the dice to do the move, I guess you can flop a die to get it into position but once they are together I slide them straight back into the thumb crotch.

Why don't you email Fast Jack and ask him. He is a master at this and has been doing it for years under fire. Straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 13, 2018 06:43PM)
Thanks, I may just email him. He does explain it pretty clearly in the lecture, he uses a forward rotation of the front most die to 'lock in' the dice. But I was just wondering if that was something that everyone does. I believe Thomas Gilroy said he does, as does a person that PMd with some help, but it doesn't appear the Steve Forte does that.

Thanks
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Oct 26, 2018 04:54AM)
[quote]On Oct 13, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Question for Cagliostro and anyone else who does this move:

Do you rotate the front dice when getting them into position as Fast Jack does?

I watched Steve Forte do the move in the GPS, and it doesn't look like he does. Granted, the angle isn't totally clear in GPS, so it's possible that he might... [/quote]

The answer to your question is yes. The second die should be rotated into position above the first die, itís a natural motion.
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Oct 26, 2018 05:08AM)
[quote]On Oct 5, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
The Thumb Switch and the Open Palm Switch are the same. I can see no difference. [/quote]

The thumb switch is totally different from the palm switch. The hand can be held much straighter with a thumb grip than with a palm grip. If someone smacks the back of your hand while playing dice the chances are most likely the dice will fall out of a palm grip than a thumb grip. Why? Because the thumb area is most unlikely to get hit because itís on the side of the hand.
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Oct 26, 2018 05:25AM)
[quote]On Sep 21, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Sep 21, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote:
I'm not really a dice guy, but I can do the open palm switch. I don't think I have particularly big hands, my fingers are pretty long but slender.

Not sure why I can't get the dice to stay put!

[/quote]

You canít get the dice to stay put because you havenít practiced enough so that the crevice between your thumb and first finger becomes accustomed to holding both dice.

Keep on practicing and it will slowly come.
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Oct 26, 2018 05:29AM)
[quote]On Sep 23, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Lol, thanks.

I did actually just read an article about a technique where guys are having their legs broken, and some apparatus is inserted that slowly stretches and regrows the bones over several months and they can put on up to 3 inches of height. All you have to do is pay $100,000, go through extended excruciating pain and be wheelchair bound for 3 or 4 months.


As far as the dice go, I'm not sure if it's actually a size thing - as I see Thomas has hands that are very close in size (judging by the dice), so unless he just has looser skin, I might be missing something in terms of what is holding the dice in on the index finger side. I can get it to work with more of a thumb palm (bent thumb) but that's clearly a different technique.

Anyway - I'll keep playing with it. [/quote]

The bent thumb is a different technique..
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 26, 2018 02:34PM)
Thanks for the tips. I've been practicing and I can do it pretty well with a single die, but that second one is difficult to get to stay put.
But it is coming along, if I do it slow and methodically I can get both into position at least.
Message: Posted by: slim23 (Oct 26, 2018 04:09PM)
Hi Last Laugh,

For practise, you might want to try with feather edge dice. Jack says these are the best for his technique( the one you mention). It will help the rotation of the second dice, it that makes any sense. He showed me how he did it with these type of dice. (For practise or for real actually)

Cheers,

Slim
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Oct 26, 2018 05:00PM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:
Thanks for the tips. I've been practicing and I can do it pretty well with a single die, but that second one is difficult to get to stay put.
But it is coming along, if I do it slow and methodically I can get both into position at least. [/quote]

In order to get good at it, while walking or doing anything just keep doing this technique while your hand is in your pocket (so that no one sees you practicing it) eventually you will get the hang of it and it will become so natural. Happy Practicing.

For practicing only practice with the dice that you will constantly be using. Why. Every culture play with a certain type of die. If youíre going to be a demonstrator thatís one thing a hustler has to be versatile because he doesnít know what dice heíll be playing with.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 26, 2018 06:40PM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2018, slim23 wrote:
Hi Last Laugh,

For practise, you might want to try with feather edge dice. Jack says these are the best for his technique( the one you mention). It will help the rotation of the second dice, it that makes any sense. He showed me how he did it with these type of dice. (For practise or for real actually)

Cheers,

Slim [/quote]

That's great to know - thanks. I'll see if I can find some.


[quote]On Oct 26, 2018, Gamblingman007 wrote:

For practicing only practice with the dice that you will constantly be using. Why. Every culture play with a certain type of die. If youíre going to be a demonstrator thatís one thing a hustler has to be versatile because he doesnít know what dice heíll be playing with. [/quote]

Most evenings if I'm watching TV or whatever with the Mrs., I'll alternate between false shuffles and deals and dice switches. In fact, watching a show or movie and NOT having something in my hands feels weird...
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Oct 26, 2018 09:08PM)
Doing what you said is the quickest way of learning because you will be doing these moves unconsciously while watching T. V. This was the fastest way for me to learn 2nd deals and dice palming. Keep up the good work.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 26, 2018 10:48PM)
That's a good point - having the moves be totally unconscious is key.

Especially being a mentalist who prefers not to be caught doing any sleight of hand, I don't even use moves in performance until I've done them thousands and thousands of times in practice.


Haven't quite decided how I'll use a dice switch for a mind reading effect, but no doubt there are lots of possibilities with gaffed dice and controlled throws.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 26, 2018 11:45PM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2018, Last Laugh wrote:

Most evenings if I'm watching TV or whatever with the Mrs., I'll alternate between false shuffles and deals and dice switches. In fact, watching a show or movie and NOT having something in my hands feels weird... [/quote]

I feel the same way but I usually prefer to have the Mrs. in my hands, but to each his own.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Oct 28, 2018 04:41AM)
Really interesting thread, Iíll have to break out some dice and learn the switch. I admit that I havenít rewarched Jackís Penguin Lecture since it originally aired (not so fun fact for Gary Plants who was meant to be a cohost was stuck down here in Australia with a broken wrist and I got to meet him...could still do wonderful bottoms). One thing about Jackís lecture I liked was that it remind me a bit of the Sal Piacante tapes, in that it wasnít eye candy for its own sake, but actual advice from a guy that has obviously been there.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 28, 2018 04:56PM)
So, since I can at least do a nice palm switch with 1 die, I made this die. The five used to be a two. A drill and a paint pen and some careful eyeballing, and now I can do some kind of bank night or Russian roulette type effect using a die that has been examined. It's not perfect, but not bad for a first attempt. Too bad I can't do that with casino dice...

[img]https://i.imgur.com/IxU1iTh.jpg[/img]