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Topic: The Real Deal - John Bukowski
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Sep 28, 2018 04:30AM)
Just see this one from Saturn Magic. Has anyone checked this out yet? Any reviews? John mentioned in the trailer "the easiest bottom, second and greek deal" - https://youtu.be/62qBixXbM2g

I practiced the deals above and after a decade they are not easy at all.
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Sep 28, 2018 05:44AM)
"Second from bottom Greek Deal."
Does this mean dealing a third card from the bottom?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 28, 2018 10:26AM)
[quote]On Sep 28, 2018, Peterson wrote:
"Second from bottom Greek Deal."
Does this mean dealing a third card from the bottom? [/quote]

LOL :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Sep 28, 2018 04:08PM)
Why is he poking us aggressively at the end of the video?

Also.... 'easiest' may not be the right aim for false deals. I mean, wouldn't the easiest bottom be where you just turn the deck over?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 28, 2018 05:06PM)
For those who are interested, here is the ad copy for this product on Saturn Magic UK:

[quote]
This is John Bukowski's refined interpretation of the Second Deal, Bottom Deal and Second from Bottom Deal A.K.A. The GREEK Deal. Three of the most highly regarded false deals in the world of close-up magic. In this download, John teaches the subtleties and nuances that will make your False Deals invisible and flawless. Filmed in high-definition, you'll learn every detail of technique, from grip to finger placement and hand motion, to bring your second deal to the next level.

When you alter the grip on the deck when switching between false deals, the shift in grip can ultimately expose the move. With this grip and dealing process that is built from the ground up on the exact same grip, your false deals can flow seamlessly from one to the other, all while remaining invisible. The finger placement and grip result in a normal mechanics appearance, without the telltale signs of finger movement when Bottom and Greek Dealing. With this technique, you don't have the DEAL LAG when you're dealing regularly and you then do a false deal -- IT HAS BEEN ELIMINATED!

John has created a whole new way of doing these deals that has eliminated the deal lag and finger movement, and it's easy and deceptive!!

John will show you how to Second Deal with only 4 fingers and Bottom Deal with only 3 fingers!! That's how easy it is. (The 3 and 4 finger techniques are for practicing only.)

All who buy this will receive John's One Handed Bottom Deal (which uses the 3-finger approach).

Technical Breakdown:
The Grip
Strike Second Deal
Bottom Deal
Second from Bottom Deal A.K.A. The GREEK Deal
This is the easiest Second, Bottom and Greek Deals you will ever do!

Download the video and start learning the REAL way![/quote]

Probably a good product but alas, no Center Deal. :(
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Sep 28, 2018 09:26PM)
[quote]On Sep 28, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Probably a good product but alas, no Center Deal. :( [/quote]

I also look for other video sources for Center Deal. The Real Deal of Jeff Lianza does include Center Deal, but the grip is just a bit awkward. Another point is he is so much influenced by DM. I believe DM is his card cheat mentor as well.

So far nothing at the moment can be compared to videos of legendary Steve Forte, Richard Turner, Jason England, Martin Nash and Darwin Ortiz in terms of Center Deal. Just my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 28, 2018 09:50PM)
[quote]On Sep 28, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:

I also look for other video sources for Center Deal...

So far nothing at the moment can be compared to videos of legendary Steve Forte, Richard Turner, Jason England, Martin Nash and Darwin Ortiz in terms of Center Deal...[/quote]

Do you mean all these gentlemen can do a very deceptive and/or undetectable center deal when viewed from the angles and viewing elevation one would encounter in a card game...that is viewing these deals from the front, left side and right side with normal game level elevation?
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Sep 28, 2018 11:42PM)
[quote]On Sep 28, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Do you mean all these gentlemen can do a very deceptive and/or undetectable center deal when viewed from the angles and viewing elevation one would encounter in a card game...that is viewing these deals from the front, left side and right side with normal game level elevation? [/quote]

Good question. I can only give you my answer when I did witnessed their deals in real life. However through instructional videos, IMO, they are good enough.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 29, 2018 11:40AM)
[quote]On Sep 28, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:

[quote]On Sep 28, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Do you mean all these gentlemen can do a very deceptive and/or undetectable center deal when viewed from the angles and viewing elevation one would encounter in a card game...that is viewing these deals from the front, left side and right side with normal game level elevation? [/quote]

Good question. I can only give you my answer when I did witnessed their deals in real life. However through instructional videos, IMO, they are good enough. [/quote]

First of all, I am not questioning the manipulative skill of the gentlemen mentioned above. They are all skillful demonstrators of [i]gambling type[/i] moves, whether real or not.

However, I do not understand your sentence that "through instructional videos, they are good enough." Are you saying that because these gentlemen have demonstrated skillfully executed "card moves" on video or in front of an audience, that in itself would imply they could (or can) do an undetectable center deal, even though you have not seen them do so?

Perhaps you could clarify this for me as I am curious.
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Sep 30, 2018 01:57AM)
[quote]On Sep 29, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Are you saying that because these gentlemen have demonstrated skillfully executed "card moves" on video or in front of an audience, that in itself would imply they could (or can) do an undetectable center deal, even though you have not seen them do so? [/quote]

It is partly what I mean. I am also curious the term "undetectable". It depends on many factors I think.

For example if I sit on the left hand of Steve Forte, good luck to spot his center.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 30, 2018 10:56AM)
[quote]On Sep 29, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:

It is partly what I mean. I am also curious the term "undetectable". It depends on many factors I think.

For example if I sit on the left hand of Steve Forte, good luck to spot his center. [/quote]

Of course, the term "undetectable" can be somewhat subjective, depending upon the circumstances. However, in this context it would mean unnoticeable, imperceptible, invisible, subtle, perhaps inaudible. But in general [i]invisible[/i] to the viewer - a move that fools others at the table and appears to be a "normal" uncontrived deal.

Further, I don't know if you were being flippant or not, but even if you were sitting on the left of Steve Forte to apparently conceal seeing any weaknesses to his center deal, what about the other people who would view his move from the right side or front. Would they need "good luck" to spot the move?

I don't mean to disparage Steve Forte in any way. He is one of the most skillful manipulators of gambling type moves ever. However, I have seen him do a center deal on his [i]Gambling Protection Series[/i] and quite frankly I don't think it would fly except possibly as a demo move because it was not very deceptive. Further, when Forte performed his "center deal" on national TV in the [i] Hidden Secrets of Magic[/i] show, he used a pseudo center deal in his demonstration, using a bottom deal to fake the center deal. Of course, the demo he did took considerable skill and he performed it impeccably well, but here is one of the most skillful men with a deck of cards ever having to use a pseudo center deal to enable the move be deceptive under reasonable scrutiny.

Darwin Ortiz is also an extremely skillful card magician who has mastered many gambling type demo moves. However, he also uses a pseudo center deal in lieu of a real center deal, employing a second deal to fake the center deal.

If these two gentlemen have to perform a pseudo center deal in lieu of performing a real center deal when they need to perform a deceptive demo, what does that say about the efficacy and undetectability of the center deal move itself?

Have you actually seen anyone perform a truly deceptive center deal, either on video or in person, that would fly under reasonable scrutiny from different angles in a card table or game format?

I don't know. Maybe you have. But I have not and I have been around gambling for a long time and known some very capable guys. (Capable means someone who actually can get the money under fire, not a magician or demonstrator.)
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 30, 2018 01:13PM)
I should also mention that around hustlers and capable people, I have never heard anyone discuss a center deal in any serious vein. It is not even mentioned except perhaps on rare occasion in jest.

The center deal is almost entirely a concept bandied about by magicians and demonstrators. It is not seriously discussed among hustlers as having any real practicality for serious hustling.

Dai Vernon started the entire center deal discussion with his revelation of the Kennedy Center Deal. I believe that was in the 1940s. It was supposed to be "oh, so hush-hush" among the upper echelon of magicians at the time and some poorer versions of the center deal appeared in [b]Expert Card Technique[/b] thereafter.

It appears credible that Kennedy used his version of the center deal in some of the private games in which he played in the 30s and 40s. How much money he made with the move, how serious the games he played in were and how effective the move was under fire cannot be determined objectively and the stories by Vernon and his followers are basically hearsay. Vernon loved to use hyperbole and one upmanship on the other magicians and no doubt could embellish his revelations to a certain degree or perhaps even greatly.

However, Tony giorgio said he saw the Kennedy Center deal demonstrated at the Magic Castle in LA a few times, mostly by Charlie Miller who had evidently mastered the move. He said the move had a somewhat unnatural grip and dealing procedure and was somewhat awkward. Giorgio also said there were much better and more practical ways to get the money other than the center deal, ways that did not require the great skill and practice needed to master the move and were more deceptive.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Sep 30, 2018 01:59PM)
[quote]On Sep 30, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:
For example if I sit on the left hand of Steve Forte, good luck to spot his center.[/quote]
Provided it's not even a center deal, yeah, good luck.
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Sep 30, 2018 08:25PM)
Cag,

Your examples of Darwin and Steve raise the question if center deal is practical in real card game.

I can say that the deal is practical, but not many times in a card game. I did see one man in Asia (I would keep his identity as a secret) dealt from the center of the deck only once in his private game. The number of cards he dealt were 2.

The deck he used was his deck, and he needed to feel the cards somehow before hitting center.

The interesting point was he showed me again (not teaching) after the game. I saw from all angles (not under the table), the deal was truly "undetectable". No breaks.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 30, 2018 09:11PM)
@liamwilson1125: Can't really comment on your above post as it is only a hearsay account of a somewhat magical feat of legerdemain with no details or substantiation offered. It is simply too nebulous to discuss.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 1, 2018 12:53AM)
In Karl Johnson's incredibly well researched book [b]The Magician and the Cardsharp[/b], Johnson notes that that the available evidence points to lots of folks having seen Alan Kennedy's centre deal.

We know that Kennedy was a hustler, and he would have refined his card moves down to only the ones he could make money with.

Johnson's book makes clear that Kennedy used the centre deal under fire ... so the internet pundits that declare the centre deal a farce need to get on the research bandwagon and offer up something as evidence to support their claims ... something that's at least as well researched (with detailed notes) as Johnson's book.

There are respectable amounts of incredibly well researched, and easily available reference materials one can access in 2018 ... reference materials which describe in detail the effective use of the centre deal under fire.
The pundits stating the opposite need to spend a bit of coin and update their reference libraries before making absolute statements that are easily refuted with available research materials.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 2, 2018 01:23PM)
[quote]On Sep 30, 2018, Mr. Bones wrote:

In Karl Johnson's incredibly well researched book [b]The Magician and the Cardsharp[/b], Johnson notes that that the available evidence points to lots of folks having seen Alan Kennedy's centre deal. [/quote]

[i]Lots of folks have seen his center deal???[/i] LOTS OF FOLKS??? And he is a professional hustler???

This demonstrates the vast difference between the magician/hobbyist/demonstrator set (hereinafter MDH) and active experienced hustlers. Most MDHs view these methods through a different prism than the hustler because they lack actual hustling experience and have never worked under fire. The last thing an [i]active[/i] hustler would want to do, one who is using his methods to get the money, would be to have a "lot of people" knowing and seeing what he does and how he does it. However, for the MDH set, it is just the opposite. To them the more people that see and "revel" in a move, the more people that are interviewed and attest to its efficacy, the more likely the move is "real" and would and can get the money under fire.

I know this dichotomy would be absurd to an objective unbiased observer, but that is the way it is.

However, I [i]do believe[/i] Kennedy used a center deal in the private games in which he played during the era in question. Context, time and place are at least as relevant as the method being used. There were a myriad of cheating tricks and ploys being used during that time period in card games, many of which in my opinion were better suited, more practical, easier to do and more deceptive that the center deal. There is no doubt in my mind there were others over the years that have used and perhaps do still use the center deal, or at least attempt to do so. How effective the results are and under what circumstances would be difficult to ascertain - but it is not an effective or practical ploy in fast company today.

[quote]Johnson's book makes clear that Kennedy used the centre deal under fire ... so the internet pundits that declare the centre deal a farce need to get on the research bandwagon and offer up something as evidence to support their claims[/quote]

Internet pundits? The term appears to be used in this context in a condescending and belittling manner. Hopefully we are not attacking persons with contrary views rather than objectively discussing their arguments. However, referring to my posts on this thread, perhaps I did not make myself completely clear. The [i]factual[/i] information presented in my posts clearly state that two of the [i]most respected[/i] card table manipulators of today use pseudo center deals for demo purposes, presumable because their center deal is not deceptive enough under close scrutiny. Also, see the comments by Steve Forte in his book [b]Poker Protection[/b] on the efficacy of the center deal.

[quote] There are respectable amounts of incredibly well researched, and easily available reference materials one can access in 2018 ... reference materials which describe in detail the effective use of the centre deal under fire.

The pundits stating the opposite need to spend a bit of coin and update their reference libraries before making absolute statements that are easily refuted with available research materials. [/quote]

Once again this is somewhat condescending implying those with a contrary view only have that opinion because they are too lazy or stupid to do the necessary research.

However, one can also say that "pundits" touting the efficacy of something they have never witnessed under fire and have no hustling experience themselves would be well to "spend a bit of coin" in getting some actual hustling experience under fire to see what does or does not work, rather than relying solely on conclusions reached by reading books written primarily, or exclusively, by magicians, academics and non-hustlers.

(To intelligently and authoritatively discuss brain surgery, one must actually have performed brain surgery himself.)

The center deal is the meat of non-hustlers (magicians, hobbyist and demonstrators). Certainly, it can be used, and has been used to cheat in card games. [i]ALMOST ANYTHING CAN BE. [/i] It all depends on a number of other factors outside of the move or method itself.

I'm sure that Kennedy had a very good center deal. No doubt others do also. [i]That is not the point. [/i] The point is there are far better, more deceptive and safer ways to get the money than the center deal. Its reputation far exceeds its efficacy and practicality under fire.

The center deal can be "performed" nicely but in and of itself, is not a premier or "high-line" cheating methodology. It is limited in application, limited in effectiveness and VERY dependent on where and how it is used.

Now if someone disagrees with that, well... :hrmph:
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 2, 2018 06:25PM)
Good grief, what are you talking about? ... nobody is arguing the centre deal as an effective tool in 2018.

You said: [i]"I have never heard anyone discuss a center deal in any serious vein. It is not even mentioned except perhaps on rare occasion in jest" [/i]
Then you said: [i]"The center deal is almost entirely a concept bandied about by magicians and demonstrators"[/i]
Then you say: [i]"I'm sure that Kennedy had a very good center deal. No doubt others do also"[/i]

All in response to me saying: [i]"Johnson's book makes clear that Kennedy used the centre deal under fire"[/i]

You're arguing out of both sides of your mouth for no apparent purpose but to argue, and somehow come out on top, as an authority of one.
Fill your boots.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 2, 2018 06:51PM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2018, Mr. Bones wrote:

Fill your boots. [/quote]

You lost me on this one.

Fill your boots?

Is that the same as what the gunfighters of the old west would say when they challenged someone to a gun fight -- "Fill your hand." :confused:
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 2, 2018 07:14PM)
Maybe it's a "Canadianism" Cag ... and I'm Canadian.

It means:
[i]"have your fill"[/i]
or:
[i]"continue on with what you're doing or saying" [/i]

Regardless, I suspect we're saying [i]approximately[/i] the same thing ... but saying it from completely different viewpoints - and elaborating on completely different aspects of the same basic idea.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 2, 2018 09:55PM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2018, Mr. Bones wrote:

...Regardless, I suspect we're saying [i]approximately[/i] the same thing ... but saying it from completely different viewpoints - and elaborating on completely different aspects of the same basic idea. [/quote]

I think you are giving me too much credit. I never claimed that I knew what I was talking about or that there was any cogency to my argument. ;)
Message: Posted by: KardSharp89 (Oct 11, 2018 04:18PM)
[quote]On Sep 30, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
I should also mention that around hustlers and capable people, I have never heard anyone discuss a center deal in any serious vein. It is not even mentioned except perhaps on rare occasion in jest.

The center deal is almost entirely a concept bandied about by magicians and demonstrators. It is not seriously discussed among hustlers as having any real practicality for serious hustling.

Dai Vernon started the entire center deal discussion with his revelation of the Kennedy Center Deal. I believe that was in the 1940s. It was supposed to be "oh, so hush-hush" among the upper echelon of magicians at the time and some poorer versions of the center deal appeared in [b]Expert Card Technique[/b] thereafter.

It appears credible that Kennedy used his version of the center deal in some of the private games in which he played in the 30s and 40s. How much money he made with the move, how serious the games he played in were and how effective the move was under fire cannot be determined objectively and the stories by Vernon and his followers are basically hearsay. Vernon loved to use hyperbole and one upmanship on the other magicians and no doubt could embellish his revelations to a certain degree or perhaps even greatly.

However, Tony giorgio said he saw the Kennedy Center deal demonstrated at the Magic Castle in LA a few times, mostly by Charlie Miller who had evidently mastered the move. He said the move had a somewhat unnatural grip and dealing procedure and was somewhat awkward. Giorgio also said there were much better and more practical ways to get the money other than the center deal, ways that did not require the great skill and practice needed to master the move and were more deceptive. [/quote]

I respectfully disagree with you on that. I am not a magician (all though I love magic and have a great respect for magicians) I am or I guess I should say... I was a professional mechanic for over 30 years. I have played in some of the biggest games in the world and I can promise you...the center deal has been used effectively under fire many many times. We don't talk about it much...because, well...why would we? lol
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Oct 11, 2018 11:57PM)
Mr.Bones can you list the resources you based you statement below?
I am always interested in materials that are not in my possession.

Mr. Bones wrote: "...reference materials which describe in detail the effective use of the centre deal under fire".

Thank you.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 12, 2018 09:48PM)
[quote]On Oct 11, 2018, KardSharp89 wrote:

I am or I guess I should say... I was a professional mechanic for over 30 years. I have played in some of the biggest games in the world and I can promise you...the center deal has been used effectively under fire many many times. We don't talk about it much...because, well...why would we? lol [/quote]

Right! :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 13, 2018 01:45PM)
[quote]On Oct 11, 2018, KardSharp89 wrote:
...... I was a professional mechanic for over 30 years..... [/quote]

So you hustled all the poker games you played ... and we all know who you are in real life ... and you're claiming you're a "professional mechanic"?

You understand that simply playing a lot of poker on the square, when you [i]also know[/i] how to do a bottom or a second deal (but don't actually execute at the table) doesn't actually make you a "professional mechanic" ... right?
To believe it does puts you firmly in the Daniel Madison camp.

I mean I've played poker since before Hold'Em was a thing ... [i]and[/i] I started studying Erdnase when I was around 14 or 15 (I'm 61 now) ... but I've never hustled a game, and therefore couldn't in a million years call myself a "professional mechanic".

Do you want to step your comment back a notch or two (especially as you're using your real name), and simply note that you've played a lot of high end poker, and you know a few moves to boot?
That perhaps calling yourself a "professional mechanic" works as you try to monetize your card game history with a website for the same crowd that Daniel Madison shops after ... but folk here in this forum just ain't gonna be buying it!
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Oct 17, 2018 01:39AM)
Out of interest, if anyone has access to the Genii Archive Iíve been recently re-reading all of Tony Giorgioís letters and I must say he provides an (in my mind) incredibly interesting analysis of why the center deal was never used as described by Kennedy. In the process he also does a fairly stunning rebuke of the arguments put forward by David Ben and Karl Johnson.
The original reason for the Giorgio Letter concerning the center deal was the December 2001 issue of Genii. Giorgioís first response can be found on page 84 of the October 2003 issue with David Benís response immediately after. A further response appears on the December 2003 issue (with a letter from Jim Swain included)
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Oct 17, 2018 01:50AM)
Https://www.insidemagic.com/magicnews/2004/11/hes-driving-me-nutz-tony-giorgio-and-his-obsession/
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Oct 17, 2018 02:07AM)
Interesting link Peterson, though I think the author couldíve done with some more research. The reason that the Giorgio Letterís started was the Jim Patton asked Giorgio to elaborate on the problems with Erdnase back in the May 1991 edition of Genii. Regardless I should point out I do like and respect David Ben and I think he has some incredibly interesting thoughts and opinions!
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 17, 2018 10:05AM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2018, Peterson wrote:
Https://www.insidemagic.com/magicnews/2004/11/hes-driving-me-nutz-tony-giorgio-and-his-obsession/ [/quote]

Don't know who this author is. However, what he wrote is little more than an irritated rant about Giorgio. He appears to have [i]no[/i] experience around gambling on any meaningful level. If he is a magician "gambling guru or expert," then all I can say he simply does not know much of what he speaks.

I have read all the Giorgio Letters over the years and have found them to be among the best gambling related material published in a magician publication. Giorgio of course had his opinion and could be somewhat adamant at times, but it was based upon his real-world gambling experience under fire...and he did have considerable experience in that area.

In fact, I have purchased [i]Genii Magazine[/i] in the past just to read his letters. Based upon my recollection, and without having the time to unpack and dig out those letters to reread them again, as I recall I had no disagreement with anything he wrote and found him to be spot on.

His comments on Erdnase and the Kennedy Center Deal are certainly worthwhile reading and a different perspective on what I believe to be some questionable and unrealistic commentary on the subject.

But of course, that is just my opinion based upon my experience over the years around some very capable people and lacking in the otherwise"ďestablished research" and "theoretical conclusions" on the subject by magician researchers, possibly (but not necessarily) with preconceived conclusions or an agenda.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 17, 2018 11:24AM)
When I mention above that I am believe Kennedy used a center deal in the games or game he played, and others may have tried this ploy over the years, it doesn't mean it is a good or practical move. It simply means Kennedy and others may have tried it with varying results over the years, maybe successfully in soft games, maybe not so successfully in tougher games. I absolutely [i]guarantee[/i] it is not a top move and I would bet it was not used by anyone successfully in games with sharp and astute players, or if tried did not last for long.

How soft the game or games Kennedy played in is unknown, but I believe they were pretty easy games.

Here is another take on the center deal from the perspective of someone who worked surveillance in the Rainbow Club cardroom catwalk in Gardena, a place where I spent a number of years playing poker back in the day. It appears that people who have real time experience around hustling and live action games have a different opinion on the efficacy the center deal than many magicians, hobbyists and demonstrators have. Hustler I know and I (and evidently Giorgio) concur completely with Conley's observations on the center deal.

[quote]On Sep 13, 2007, Ron Conley wrote:

My Take on the Center Deal

The center deal I saw from the catwalk of the Rainbow Club in Gardena is much different than what people believe. These were bridge size plastic Kims cards and only two cards were dealt the aces. This was eight-handed Draw Poker; the deck was 52+joker if you put two aces on the bottom and the cards are cut near the center. This puts the aces in approximately position 25 and 26, holding a break, and, dealing the first 7 cards put the aces in position 18 and 19. The first ace is dealt from position 19, the second from position 11. This would more of a high-center than a center. If you chose to deal the first card to yourself off the top, you would end up dealing centers from positions 11 and 3. There is no way to deal more than 3 centers with a cut near the middle; if the cut is deep, then, 2 cards is it. This, of course, pertains to the eight-handed game as played in Gardena, then the "Poker Capital of the World."

The small Persian man I saw doing the centers at the Rainbow always dealt the first two from the center. There was a definite false move when he picked up the deck, as the cards were never completely squared up. When he dealt the centers, his tempo changed; the deck went up higher but he did get them out and nobody at the table complained. Games like the 10 and 20 draw were usually pretty soft, so I don't believe that there were any tough spots in the game he was in. When I first saw it, I though he was dealing bottoms, but couldn't find the hop. Yes I'm aware of the move of holding out a couple of cards and capping them back on the bottom after the cut. There is also a neat little move used by some bottom dealers where a small group of cards slide under as the halves are put together, sort of like a blackjack muck with the upper part of the deck for cover. Getting out the binoculars and moving over to get an angle left no doubt this was the center deal.

So was this the ultimate move. The cheater that's so good that he can move on anybody and never be caught; sorry but that whole concept is a myth. This fellow does not make the top 1000 on my list. I never got to see this from the table but from what I saw upstairs it had to look bad. I do not believe this guy was a pro, having been around hustlers all my life. I have yet to have a single one tell me they saw or knew a center dealer. There's been a couple rare cases of a single blind center being dealt when location was used in A-5 lowball, for example: the top of the deck has 5 picture cards. Your single opponent is pat. As you pick up the deck to deal, the bottom is peeked. Itís another loser, so you take one from the center not knowing what it will be. These are not good moves and were only used in soft games without anyone gunning the deck...

...I hope this at least clears up my position on the center deal. Whether you believe it or not will be your call.........Ron [/quote]

As you can see, this is a different perspective from the "established research" available to the magician, hobbyists and demonstrator set.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 17, 2018 02:33PM)
I tend to doubt a few things that Giorgio had to say ... but you'd be a fool to doubt anything Ron Conley says if the subject is gambling and hustling.

(I know Giorgio was the "real deal", but he was also incredibly pig headed, and fundamentally unwilling to either defend things he said, or listen to anybody who had a counter-point to his own).
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Oct 17, 2018 03:22PM)
Cag and Mr Bones,
I pretty much agree on all fronts. With Giorgio, yes sometimes he was pig headed, but from reading them chronologically I can see that he really just hated people who were magicians posing as gambling experts. I also shouldíve put the caveat in about Ronía anecdote as I remember reading it when it was first posted. Really interesting.
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Oct 17, 2018 10:52PM)
Ron Conley - "The One Man Bird & Bunny Show"?

Getting back to the OP - The Real Deal is it a good resource?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 18, 2018 10:31AM)
[quote] On Oct 17, 2018, Jerry wrote:

Ron Conley - "The One Man Bird & Bunny Show"?[/quote]

I'm not very bright. Perhaps you can clarify this statement.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 18, 2018 12:20PM)
...snip for Jerry....

[i]Ron Conley, in a career spanning over 40 years, is a casino surveillance specialist, table game protection expert, casino administrator, expert witness, accomplished sleight of hand expert and professional poker player.

Ron has acted as Director Of Surveillance at the Bicycle Club Casino, Hawaiian Gardens Casino, and The Hustler Casino. He has been a Shift Manager at the Rainbow Club, Huntington Park Casino, Hawaiian Gardens Casino, Crystal Park Hotel And Casino and Club Caribe Casino.

He has done seminars and acted as a consultant for Casinos, Law Enforcement and Banking Groups including the Fresno Police Department, Fowler Police Department, Hollywood Park Casino, Bay 101 Casino, Club One Casino, The California Cardroom Owners Association, California State University Dominguez Hills, Bay 101 Casino, Wynn Las Vegas Casino, World Gaming Conference, Card Player Magazine and many many others.[/i]
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Oct 18, 2018 01:41PM)
Mr. Bones, thank you.

Cag, my short research of Ron Conley only produced a Bunny Show magician. I was not certain it was the same person describe here.

Taking a chance and ordering "The Real Deal".

Wish list - "The Collected Writings of Giorgio". I would purchase this book in a New York Minute.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 19, 2018 11:33AM)
[quote]On Oct 11, 2018, KardSharp89 wrote:

I respectfully disagree with you on that (re the Center Deal). I am not a magician (all though I love magic and have a great respect for magicians) I am or I guess I should say... I was a professional mechanic for over 30 years. I have played in some of the biggest games in the world and I can promise you...the center deal has been used effectively under fire many many times. We don't talk about it much...because, well...why would we? lol [/quote]

Yes, the Center Deal is oh so very "hush-hush." It is only discussed at length on this forum, magic magazines and books, on video tape, when magicians gather, at my aunt's sewing circle and so on. But you are right, "we don't' talk about it much...because, well...why should we." :rolleyes:

30 years a professional mechanic playing in the biggest games in the world (and presumably cheating and taking these games off.) I don't doubt you at all, so I assume you are in the Black Book of cheaters and prohibited persons, unless of course you were so good you never were caught. I have an old copy or two of the book, so I will check it when I get a chance to unpack the boxes that contain them.

Be that as it may, I should point out that George Devol has you beat by 10 years. He was "Forty Years a Gambler on the Mississippi."

By the way, did you also know George by any chance? ;)
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 19, 2018 04:50PM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2018, Jerry wrote:

Wish list - "The Collected Writings of Giorgio". I would purchase this book in a New York Minute. [/quote]

I can't resist this one. Since I am originally from New York City, as I recall the correct expression is, "in a New York SECOND."

A "minute" to a New Yorker is an eternity.

The devil made me do this, Jerry. So PEACE to you. LOL
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Oct 19, 2018 08:19PM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2018, Jerry wrote:

Taking a chance and ordering "The Real Deal".
[/quote]

Jerry,

I just saw it yesterday and I did not know what to say. The method is too weird for me.
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Oct 19, 2018 08:27PM)
Cag, I am more familiar with the expression "New York MINUTE".

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=New%20York%20Minute

But, hey if I can get even faster, great!
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Oct 19, 2018 08:37PM)
Liamwilson - Thanks, although I have already purchase it.
Have not gotten to it yet. Still looking at my Mene Tekel materials/deck.

When I get chance I will make some input. Comments from a duffer type.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 19, 2018 08:37PM)
@Jerry:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=new+york+second

A true New Yorker only recognizes a New York second.

New York Minute? That's more for the tourists. They move at a slower pace. LOL
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Oct 21, 2018 04:10PM)
A brief overview on seconds, centers and bottoms using his method.
He claims to have simplified the process.
Clocking in at only 20 minutes. With some really annoying bad camera work and editing.
You will probable be disappointed. I was.

Nothing weird about his method in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 21, 2018 06:15PM)
Jerry, are you saying the ad copy does not accurately represent that which is taught. For example:

[quote] In this download, John teaches the subtleties and nuances that will make your False Deals invisible and flawless. Filmed in high-definition, you'll learn every detail of technique, from grip to finger placement and hand motion, to bring your second deal to the next level. [/quote]

Do you meant the false deals taught are not invisible and flawless and they don't bring this work to the next level?

[quote] With this grip and dealing process...you can flow seamlessly from one to the other, (seconds, bottoms or Greek deal), all the while remaining invisible. The finger placement and grip result in a normal mechanics appearance, without the telltale signs of finger movement when Bottom and Greek Dealing. With this technique, you don't have the DEAL LAG when you're dealing regularly and you then do a false deal -- IT HAS BEEN ELIMINATED!

John has created a whole new way of doing these deals that has eliminated the deal lag and finger movement, and it's easy and deceptive!! [/quote]

Could it be this is a gross exaggeration and another dream shattered?

[quote]John will show you how to Second Deal with only 4 fingers and Bottom Deal with only 3 fingers!! That's how easy it is. (The 3 and 4 finger techniques are for practicing only.[/quote]

I don't understand this at all. Does this mean John is giving us all the finger, or perhaps multiple fingers?

[quote] This is the easiest Second, Bottom and Greek Deals you will ever do! [/quote]

Yes, but what do they look like? Easy is not necessarily good.

[quote] Download the video and start learning the REAL way! [/quote]

This has got to be good. After all, it is the "real way." No?

Jerry, it you don't like this, do you get a 30 day money back guarantee?

Thanks for posting this info. After you have gone through it all, let us know what your final verdict is on this. I'm sure it will be helpful to some of the members who are trying to learn these moves.
Message: Posted by: Jerry (Oct 21, 2018 07:22PM)
Cag, actually the ad copy is accurate. Everything written is in fact in the video.
Will it make your card dealing flawless and easy? Well... umm...

I not really qualified and the last person to make that a kind of comment.
Overall I was just underwhelm.

Jason England, Allen Ackerman, Jerry Camaro, Shade (Magic Tao) and many others do a better job.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 21, 2018 10:36PM)
Okay Jerry, I think that answers the main questions about this material for those who may be interested. Essentially it is okay but there are better sources and better material on the subject.

That should be helpful to those who are considering this information.
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Oct 23, 2018 08:54PM)
Jerry,

Same feelings. Have no idea why it is such a low budget one. I didn't see him dealing without exposť throughout the video (let me know if I missed it). I wonder how his techniques can be applied for demonstration purposes.

And yes, I do agree that there are much better sources out there to check out.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 24, 2018 08:21AM)
It doesn't look very good to me. Another "I know everything and you guys suck" on the block? Looks like this style is very common in UK: Earl, Madison, etc.
Message: Posted by: billy032 (Oct 27, 2018 02:48PM)
It looks like the real deal from the bottom. Lmao
Message: Posted by: liamwilson1125 (Oct 27, 2018 08:34PM)
Just found out other sources on the web. Has anyone owned one of these? Reviews?

"It's your deal" by Wesley James - https://www.lybrary.com/its-your-deal-p-922546.html
Artanis Bottom Deal - https://www.lybrary.com/artanis-bottom-deal-p-242.html
The Base Deal - https://youtu.be/fQQSeRjYTcc
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 28, 2018 05:16PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2018, liamwilson1125 wrote:

Just found out other sources on the web. Has anyone owned one of these? Reviews?

"It's your deal" by Wesley James - https://www.lybrary.com/its-your-deal-p-922546.html
Artanis Bottom Deal - https://www.lybrary.com/artanis-bottom-deal-p-242.html
The Base Deal - https://youtu.be/fQQSeRjYTcc [/quote]

I can now see why Jason England says it takes several years to master the bottom deal.

Yikes, it probably would take several years just to read through the Wesley James material, let alone the myriad of other books on the subject. To then try out all the grips explained, to experiment as to which method works best for you and finally make the decision as to which technique to master. So...after several years of research and experimentation, from that point on probably 1-2 months to master the selected bottom deal well enough to use for demos.

The total time from start to finish (reading, trying out different approaches and methods over and over again...endlessly...and finally make decision as to which method to master and practice) certainly might takes years to learn and master a bottom deal for demo use. Perhaps never ever learning a good method amidst all the confusion engendered. It then becomes even more time consuming and confusing because there is always another guru coming out with a "new" or "improved" technique on DVDs or in webinars (for a price of course) to enable one to become an even better bottom dealer. Is it any wonder that it may takes years to master a good bottom deal with that approach? There is always some new "shiny object" bottom deal to chase on the horizon.

However, for someone who is somewhat skillful at card manipulation, being shown exactly how to do ONE good bottom technique and having one"s progress monitored by the instructor, with one hour or so of applied practice per day, it should not take more than one month or so to have a very deceptive and clean bottom deal for demo purposes.

Now, to use the move under fire in varying game conditions, that is quite different. Most performers and bottom deal demo experts cannot effectively use the beautiful bottom deal they demo in a game. They usually don't have the skill set, large enough cojones or experience in application for real money. The again they may have no desire to do so. However, to acquire that [i]different[/i] level of mastery requires actually using the move under fire, in varying game conditions for a period of time, and for money that is meaningful...so meaningful that if caught one could be in serious trouble. Then, if one doesn't get beat up or killed during that process, he will have mastered the move for the purpose it was originally intended.

I recall that when I first learned the move, all these confusing options were not present. I had Erdnase, Ireland's Lessons in Dishonesty, Expert Card Technique and Card Mastery. No confusion at all. Just some practice from that point on. Of course, I refined all that over the years, but the initial mastery was not very hard.

I think it may be harder today because of all the "options." However for the hobbyist, magician and demonstrator, all these otpiton are part of the fun and enjoyment of learning the move.
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Oct 28, 2018 09:28PM)
I have the Artarnis manuscript and I enjoy it from a historical POV. Itís interesting to listen to and is in essence a very good bottom deal. Canít speak for the other two sources though.