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Topic: How can Hamman count be effective?
Message: Posted by: TeddyBoy (Feb 27, 2019 11:45AM)
A newbie hobbyist question. I've just learned the Hamman count, and believe I appreciate what it is supposed to achieve. The problem I have is that at the end of the count when we again re-count cards that were first displayed only seconds before, I don't understand how a spectator is not noticing this. Have those of you that use the Hamman count ever been caught with it? Can merely keeping eye contact with the audience really misdirect their attention to the extent that they do not notice the repetition of the cards?

I should point out that I have not yet performed for anyone (other than my wife) due to performance anxiety, therefore I have virtually zero audience experience. Unfortunately, with respect to overcoming the anxiety, the end of the Hamman count is definitely not helping.
Message: Posted by: ChrisPayne (Feb 27, 2019 11:53AM)
The Hamman count is commonly done with the cards face down which solves the problem! If done face up the commonest use is probably "Wild card" where you appear to show 8 cards the same with one stranger card in the middle - it all depends on the context of the trick.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Feb 27, 2019 12:09PM)
I've used it numberless times in Oil & Queens, masterpiece by Roy Walton. Cards are face up in this case, but audience do not notice the discrepancy.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Rupert Pupkin (Feb 27, 2019 01:11PM)
Magicians are fond of the phrase, “Don’t worry, it will fly.” It's sometimes, though rarely, true.

You’re asking an important question, one which has an answer somewhere between “Just accept it” and “It depends on the trick.”
Message: Posted by: TeddyBoy (Feb 27, 2019 01:29PM)
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, ChrisPayne wrote:
The Hamman count is commonly done with the cards face down which solves the problem! If done face up the commonest use is probably "Wild card" where you appear to show 8 cards the same with one stranger card in the middle - it all depends on the context of the trick. [/quote]

You are correct, I should have been more clear that in my case, the packet is indeed, face-up. The specific trick is Mystic Nine by Brother John Hamman, and Prof Giobbi's modification of it in Card College Volume 3.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 27, 2019 02:39PM)
A well executed Hamman Count is very convincing.
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (Feb 27, 2019 02:54PM)
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
A well executed Hamman Count is very convincing. [/quote]

Agreed. There should be no pause when the switch is done.
Message: Posted by: Rupert Pupkin (Feb 27, 2019 03:02PM)
I hope to one day see a well-executed one. I think the move is great, but I have yet to witness the switch done undetectably.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 27, 2019 03:44PM)
Brother Hamman, John Carney, Max Maven are three that come to mind. There are many more.
Message: Posted by: Ferry Gerats (Feb 27, 2019 03:54PM)
Teddyboy you can start the count with the spectators at your left and end the count with spectators on your right.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Feb 27, 2019 05:36PM)
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
I hope to one day see a well-executed one. I think the move is great, but I have yet to witness the switch done undetectably. [/quote]

It's just SUCH a knacky move for what good it does you to get it that smooth throughout, for all the trouble it gives you. Honestly, I think Tommy Wonder had the right idea in Tamed Cards, which was to motivate a break in the action.
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Feb 27, 2019 05:38PM)
I saw Jerry Sadowitz doing Hamman count at his show and it was very much undetectable! I only knew it because I knew it, if you get me.
But yes Rupert, I agree. Every time I've seen one on YouTube it has been to this rhythm: 1,2,3,4,FIVE!,,6,7,8,9 :D
I've spent a long time on mine and it never drops off my premium practice list to the second -top up- level. I doubt it ever will. It's just something I can only do if I do it often. Daily.
Message: Posted by: TeddyBoy (Feb 27, 2019 08:11PM)
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, Ferry Gerats wrote:
Teddyboy you can start the count with the spectators at your left and end the count with spectators on your right. [/quote]

Very interesting perspective, thank you.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 27, 2019 10:38PM)
[quote]I have not yet performed for anyone (other than my wife) due to performance anxiety...[/quote]

For a lot of us, performing for the spouse doubles the anxiety...;)
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Feb 27, 2019 10:56PM)
TeddyBoy, I didn't comment to your question.
I use the Hamman count, face up, in Oil and Queens too. The thing is that the cards used are very nondescript anyway and uninteresting and also similar. I thought just like you when I first read the tutorial. However, when I performed it, it really didn't get spotted. I have now performed it to strangers probably 40 times and no one has said anything about the cards being the same. They haven't [i]seemed to[/i] have spotted it either and could maybe have just been being polite? No! They are following the process and then enjoying the kicker at the end and their mind isn't even on such a thing as the actual card suits and numbers.
Like Rupert said, and I will say it - at least for Oil and Queens, and I'd wager any effect where you are to use very similar cards (7c,6d,8s,7s,6c...for example) - that it really does fly past them, under the radar.
The only thing that got me to realise this was performing it.
Go to Cafés*, play around with a deck and before too long someone will ask if you can do magic. Just turn to them and start your trick. Do this count a few times to strangers and the boost it gives is immeasurable.
Good luck!
;)
*Or any local place that people hang around in.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Feb 28, 2019 01:00AM)
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, NicholasD wrote:
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
A well executed Hamman Count is very convincing. [/quote]

Agreed. There should be no pause when the switch is done. [/quote]

This is not true. It may be done, if you have a reason or time it correctly.
See for example Tommy Wonder in his Tamed Card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvURE6ueeEk

Count start at 1:25

Mark
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Feb 28, 2019 01:03AM)
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
I hope to one day see a well-executed one. I think the move is great, but I have yet to witness the switch done undetectably. [/quote]

What about Vallarino in his Ultimate Wild Card?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3QynL4oLhg

Count starts at 0:21
.Mark
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Feb 28, 2019 05:44AM)
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
I hope to one day see a well-executed one. I think the move is great, but I have yet to witness the switch done undetectably. [/quote]

I PM'ed you
Message: Posted by: stickmondoo (Feb 28, 2019 07:09AM)
It’s nice to be able to perform a trick, say The Mystic 9, from a normal deck, but when it comes to doing Hamman Counts and Elmsleys they lend themselves to packet tricks and you can make them up out of anything. The Mystic 9 could be made up out of five Similar Jokers and five blank faced cards and the Hamman Count instantly becomes easier to ‘get by’ the layman. The way I perform the Mystic 9 from a Normal deck is to have no duplicate values among any of the cards. Say I would pick out the 8c 5s 9c 7s and 6c. And a similar set with hearts and diamonds. Because the suits are jumbled and there are no duplicate values you will never see 3 of a value as you do the count and even though you may see two 5s because of the suit jumble it’s fine.
Message: Posted by: Melephin (Feb 28, 2019 09:06AM)
This is one of my favourite moves. I use it in my oil and water routine, the cards facing up and I was never caught. In the contrary, I have used it as an out as well, where it saved the day (while people where burning my hands).

The timing is indeed the important part. To have a motivated break in the middle is one way to do it, the other way to go smoothly through. It might be easier in the beginning, to use the break that you have in the middle for every card. That way, there is no breaking the rhythm. Like 1-break-2-break-3-break-4-break-5-break-6-break-7-break-8-break. From that point you just start to get smoother and smoother.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Feb 28, 2019 10:21AM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2019, mlippo wrote:
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
I hope to one day see a well-executed one. I think the move is great, but I have yet to witness the switch done undetectably. [/quote]

What about Vallarino in his Ultimate Wild Card?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3QynL4oLhg

Count starts at 0:21
.Mark [/quote]

Not to speak for Rupert but there's a noticeable hiccup there. The question then becomes whether or not regular folks would notice it.
Message: Posted by: Rupert Pupkin (Feb 28, 2019 10:37AM)
Yeah, on the one hand you could say, “Well I’m a magician, I know what to look for.” On the other, heavier, more valid, dominant hand, you could say, “Laypeople have eyes and a brain.”
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 28, 2019 12:08PM)
Strangely, to me, the face-up count there was more convincing than the face-down one.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Feb 28, 2019 12:12PM)
Agreed, but two things. First, I think the vantage point helps a bit there. Second, that Queen catches the eye, so if you're looking for even counting that'll distract you momentarily, which might be enough. There was less swaying of the right hand after the move, but that sort of thing is correctable. Still knacky, though.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Feb 28, 2019 12:34PM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
“Well I’m a magician, I know what to look for.” [/quote]

Exactly.
Mark
Message: Posted by: JoeHohman (Feb 28, 2019 12:42PM)
I know it is popular among some of our more talented practitioners, but the music in that clip is just so cheesy, with the stridently synthetic violins and all the little mini-explosions timed to coincide with the turn of a card. I hear that sort of music and I lose interest almost immediately, because it sounds so self-important and, frankly, inappropriate. It's Wild Card, it is not high political drama, and I think we do a dis-service to these types of effects when we present them without any audience interaction and try to artificially infuse them with some pseudo-importance.

Or maybe it is just me?

Oh, and landmark, I agreed with you about the face-up count being smoother and more convincing. I didn't think your reaction was strange at all.
Message: Posted by: HeronsHorse (Feb 28, 2019 04:09PM)
I don't like the Vallarino examples there. Noticeable. The cards visibly jump across at the switch. It can be hidden better.
I'm maybe being picky but I like natural looking and as perfect as possible.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Mar 1, 2019 12:11PM)
I haven't yet tried to learn the HC yet, but I'd like to learn it, or some alternative. This thread is scaring me a bit! Any thoughts on the following from the experienced Packet Tricksters among you?:


1. In Card College Giobbi suggests an irregular rhythm, invented by Ascanio, that he believes makes the count deceptive.



2. I'd be interested to hear about less knacky alternatives to the HC that accomplish the same thing. Daryl, in his Encyclopedia of Card Sleights, shows a method, but he goes too quickly for me to follow. There's also a count in Racherbaumer's Counthesaurus called "In Lieu of the Hamman Count" -- I think it's by Marlo -- that might be what I'm looking for. Basically, as I understand it, the idea is to do a series of switches that resemble the one in the Elmsley Count -- rather than doing the single packet switch.



Bob
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (Mar 1, 2019 02:33PM)
John Carney's Hammanesque in Carneycopia is based on the Hamman count and is very deceptive.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Mar 1, 2019 02:47PM)
Thanks, Nicholas. I've looked at Hammanesque casually in the past; time to take a more careful look!
Message: Posted by: mattH (Mar 2, 2019 02:00PM)
Giggle count?
Message: Posted by: Ferry Gerats (Mar 2, 2019 04:16PM)
@mattH would you please give a reference where the giggle count can be found.
Message: Posted by: Kimura (Mar 3, 2019 03:47AM)
Plenty of over-thinking going on in this thread. The Hamman Count is perfectly deceptive. Just think like Ramsay!

Here's a script for the Hamman Count, using Oil and Queens as an example:
"here's a red card, and a black card, and a red card, and a black..."
(look up at spectators and smile)
"I think you see the pattern here"
"...and a red card and a black card, and a red card, and a black..."

When you're looking up at the spectator, you're making the switch. No pausing required. A couple run-throughs will show you how fluid the above can be. You can of course adapt the script to whatever trick you're actually doing.

"If you want someone to look at something, look at it yourself. If you want someone to look at you, look at them" - John Ramsay
Message: Posted by: shaunluttin (Mar 3, 2019 04:09PM)
What Kimura and Burnaby wrote resonates with me.

The Hamman Count is one of many moves that do not bear scrutiny. If an intelligent spectator is burning your hands, that person will know something happened, even if they think that something is a continuity error in the matrix.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 3, 2019 08:27PM)
[quote]On Mar 3, 2019, shaunluttin wrote:
What Kimura and Burnaby wrote resonates with me.

The Hamman Count is one of many moves that do not bear scrutiny. If an intelligent spectator is burning your hands, that person will know something happened, even if they think that something is a continuity error in the matrix. [/quote]
Why would you allow someone to burn your hands? If people are burning your hands at the point the hamman count takes place then the routine/performance needs more work.
A good Hamman Count passes muster in the hands of a master because it takes place at the correct moment.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 3, 2019 08:28PM)
[quote]On Mar 3, 2019, Kimura wrote:
Plenty of over-thinking going on in this thread. The Hamman Count is perfectly deceptive. Just think like Ramsay!

Here's a script for the Hamman Count, using Oil and Queens as an example:
"here's a red card, and a black card, and a red card, and a black..."
(look up at spectators and smile)
"I think you see the pattern here"
"...and a red card and a black card, and a red card, and a black..."

When you're looking up at the spectator, you're making the switch. No pausing required. A couple run-throughs will show you how fluid the above can be. You can of course adapt the script to whatever trick you're actually doing.

"If you want someone to look at something, look at it yourself. If you want someone to look at you, look at them" - John Ramsay [/quote]
Bingo.
Message: Posted by: Rupert Pupkin (Mar 3, 2019 08:44PM)
I also make sure people aren’t looking at my hands when I do a color change.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 3, 2019 08:44PM)
[quote]On Mar 3, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
I also make sure people aren’t looking at my hands when I do a color change. [/quote]
Why?
Message: Posted by: Rupert Pupkin (Mar 3, 2019 09:46PM)
Always misdirect, my good man!
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 3, 2019 09:54PM)
I tend to agree, but it depends on the colour change. With some you may want a delay in the moment. Others you want to direct their attention to the change.
A colour change is not in the same category as a count. Different rules apply.
Message: Posted by: martin1025 (Mar 5, 2019 05:46PM)
The first time I saw the Hamman count done in a deceptive way (in my opinion) was when I saw Darwin Ortiz perform his trick "The Color of Money" in his Scams And Fantasies With Cards DVD Vol. 2. I noticed the cards where almost vertical and the grip was slightly different. I also thought you could not stare at the count but after watching him do the count I though it would fly by even if they were looking directly at the cards. I do the count twice at around 0:30 on the following video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkhrViQXoOo
Message: Posted by: martini (Mar 5, 2019 09:28PM)
Greetings Teddyboy;
All of the comments above are worth serious consideration, as the Hamman Count is very deceptive done right.

I have used it for over 40 years performing Bruce Cervon's Dirty Deal. Early on I made the same mistake of
many others and had that slight pause. Later on a trip to England and spending time with the brilliant magician
and magic dealer, Ken Brooke, Ken taught me a very valuable lesson on practice. I was told to do it with no pause
and to practice it at least an hour a day in a mirror until I could not see anything but a straight count with no
pause at all. Then he told me that once I had the count down smooth without pause, to do it again in front of the
mirror without looking down.

Ken's feelings on this, is that if you can do it without looking, then obviously to a spectator you cannot be
doing anything tricky. He said that if you constantly look down during the count, you are un-knowingly calling
calling attention to your hands at the wrong time.

This advice has been worth its weight in gold to me not only with Dirty Deal, but in everything that I work
on or practice.
Just my 2 cents for whatever help it can give
All the Best
Marty
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 5, 2019 09:39PM)
Excellent post Martini. Thanks for sharing Ken's wisdom.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Mar 5, 2019 09:44PM)
[quote]On Mar 5, 2019, martin1025 wrote:
The first time I saw the Hamman count done in a deceptive way (in my opinion) was when I saw Darwin Ortiz perform his trick "The Color of Money" in his Scams And Fantasies With Cards DVD Vol. 2. I noticed the cards where almost vertical and the grip was slightly different. I also thought you could not stare at the count but after watching him do the count I though it would fly by even if they were looking directly at the cards. I do the count twice at around 0:30 on the following video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkhrViQXoOo [/quote]

Those look great. Nice work.
Message: Posted by: martini (Mar 5, 2019 09:48PM)
Greetings Magicfish;
I have learned so much from Ken over the years that has helped me to be where I am.

Ken had the best instructions anywhere, so detailed and was like a personal lesson
with him. Ken would always spend time with anyone who had a problem doing anything that
he himself knew how to do. If he did not know, he would tell you who could help or what
book you could get the information from.

That dedication plus all of Ken's advice were most welcome when I went into the magic
business. There are a lot of people on this forum that are equally helpful when questions
are asked, and that is what the Café is all about. I am always happy to chirp in if it is
something I can help with.

All the Best
Marty
Message: Posted by: FlightRisk (Mar 6, 2019 06:14PM)
Duvivier's "Printing" uses the Hamman count. There are alternate handlings, like the one from Daryl that are easier, but if you want to practice your skill with a really strong effect (IMHO) that is one.
Message: Posted by: ThomasJ (Mar 6, 2019 07:50PM)
[quote]On Mar 5, 2019, martin1025 wrote:
The first time I saw the Hamman count done in a deceptive way (in my opinion) was when I saw Darwin Ortiz perform his trick "The Color of Money" in his Scams And Fantasies With Cards DVD Vol. 2. I noticed the cards where almost vertical and the grip was slightly different. I also thought you could not stare at the count but after watching him do the count I though it would fly by even if they were looking directly at the cards. I do the count twice at around 0:30 on the following video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkhrViQXoOo [/quote]

In the write up of “The Color of Money”, Darwin gives a great explantion of the count and touches to make it deceptive. He suggests using a “one-two, three-four, five-six...” rhythm to make the swap feel natural. If you can get your hands on a copy, it’s well worth studying.

TJ
Message: Posted by: Christian de Punto (Oct 18, 2019 03:26PM)
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, NicholasD wrote:
[quote]On Feb 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
A well executed Hamman Count is very convincing. [/quote]

Agreed. There should be no pause when the switch is done. [/quote]

you do not have to hurry up. I slow down all counting to the speed I can perform the change, so at the change is no rythm-change. and the sound is important too. I try to produce same "snap" of the pulled down cards all time. its quit easy to make.
beside that I think that the count shown slower is even more convincing, because you clearly see each card sliding down from the top.
you just have to be carefull the audience to loook more from up at the cards, not against the edges.

or you do like thommy wonder. you put a pause with purpos. he is pointing at his watch, because its part of the story. in a classic wild-card routine, you could be "surprised" by the single card.
Message: Posted by: Kimura (Oct 19, 2019 03:16AM)
Here's Jack Tighe doing an absolutely burnable Hamman, no reason why anyone here can't do it:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3u8AuGHpny/
Message: Posted by: Christian de Punto (Oct 19, 2019 04:47AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, Kimura wrote:
Here's Jack Tighe doing an absolutely burnable Hamman, no reason why anyone here can't do it:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3u8AuGHpny/ [/quote]

very nice! and nice, calm speed. interesting that he is not using the index-finger of the right hand. great work!
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Oct 19, 2019 08:28AM)
As I have posted in another thread, the Hamman at the fingertips is quite deceptive too. Here I perform it with 5 cards, but you might as well use 7 or 9, it won't make any difference. Poor resolution, but you get the gist. It's quite easy to learn too. And the grip and mechanics are more like other magicians' counts: EC, Jordan etc.

[youtube]KUUssnt_SFs[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Rupert Pupkin (Oct 19, 2019 08:50AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, Kimura wrote:
Here's Jack Tighe doing an absolutely burnable Hamman, no reason why anyone here can't do it:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3u8AuGHpny/ [/quote]

Wonderful.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 19, 2019 10:45AM)
Claudio,


I have a feeling I may have asked you this already, perhaps on that other thread, but do you know of a good source that teaches this, preferably slowly and in detail? Daryl does something like this in his Encylopedia, but it goes by pretty fast.


Thanks,

Bob
Message: Posted by: Wordsworth (Oct 19, 2019 11:13AM)
Hi Bob,
I could be wrong on this, but I believe Ammar teaches this on easy to master #6, for "oil and queens". When you say slowly and in detail, that's exactly how he approaches things in those videos. L&L sells those pretty cheaply, too, and there is a lot of good material on them. If you're interested in that one, let me know, and I can dig out my ancient VHS tape and watch it and see if the Hamman count is in fact on there. Someone on the Café no doubt will know the answer to that one already, of course, and might chime in to confirm.
Thanks
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Oct 20, 2019 12:48PM)
Bob,

The Hamman Count from a dealing grip can be found on [URL=http://www.llpub.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2427]Master Card Technique Vol 1 - World’s Greatest Magic[/URL]

I did not buy the video, but, the execution of every sleight, that I saw on a trailer I believe, was very smooth. I learnt this HC handling by watching the trailer.

I’ll try to detail (my interpretation of) the sleight by PM later on this week, if you'd like.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 20, 2019 02:31PM)
Thanks, Claudio. Don't worry about PM'ing me (although I'd love to get a PM sometime and hear how you're doing). I now remember that you'd given me this info before. At the time I found that the explanation on that disk went by too fast for me. But now that I more or less have the EC down, I may be able to figure out the explanation on that disk more readily.


Wordsworth, I'll check into the Ammar disk. I'm not finding it in my collection at the moment, but I think I own it.


Perhaps the most important thing to me about the HC: Can someone recommend a handling that's easy to learn and that actually is "easy to master"? I believe magicfish and others when they say that the masters (and Claudio is clearly a master in this regard) can execute the sleight without suspicion, but what about us ordinary (and relatively inexperienced) mortals? I've heard so many comments to the effect that the HC is a really hard sleight to do well, that I wonder if I should even bother to learn it. Are there alternatives, e. g., multiple EC's, that may be less efficient but which accomplish the same thing?


Thanks everybody,


Bob
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 20, 2019 09:56PM)
Kaps at 1:17 looks pretty good :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufyCwkc0M6I
Message: Posted by: Glenn Morphew (Oct 21, 2019 07:12PM)
My Hamman Count isn't perfect but it isn't horrible either. I typically make a gentle swing from my right to my left most spectator when I do the count but for the sake of close scrutiny, this is just from a static position.

[youtube]RupzG1WlOcg[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 21, 2019 08:15PM)
Look awfully good to me... !
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 21, 2019 08:20PM)
Let me reword my question above in a more useful way: if I want to learn the HC, can anyone recommend a handling that would give me the best chance of learning it, and eventually learning it well?


Thanks,

Bob
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 22, 2019 01:51AM)
Some excellent advice in this thread. Also, I think Jack Tighe just crushed it, as he always does. That demo alone should put to rest the idea that the Hamman count "can't" be done invisibly or deceptively. Yes it can!

Here's something to think about that might help some of you, some of the time: improve/alter some other aspect of the overall structure of the routine.

Disclaimer: the following is an artificial situation I've just now come up with for the sake of argument. But the principle may still be of use to some of you.

Imagine that you want to show 4 black spot cards, an Ace of Hearts and then 4 black spot cards again, all the while concealing the 4 Queens behind the AH.

Cull the Queens to the rear of the deck. Make sure the AH is somewhere in the middle of the deck.

Spread through and openly upjog 4 black spot cards, then upjog the AH, then upjog 4 more black spot cards as you say to the spectator, "I need 8 random black number cards and a red Ace for this..."

When upjogging the 4 black spot cards behind the AH, upjog them slightly lower than the first 4 and the AH.

After all 9 cards are upjogged, catch a break above the 4 Queens and close the deck, but try and have the 4 spot cards nearest the face and the AH widely spread. That small fan of 5 cards will conceal the fact that you're using your left forefinger to reach up and square the lowermost 4 black spot cards back into the deck. Immediately after doing this, you perform the Vernon upjog addition as you strip out the 4 forwardmost black spots and the AH.

Now when you perform your Hamman count, you're not "displaying" the situation for the first time (which might be interesting enough for your spectators to pay attention to), you're merely reconfirming what they already (think they) know. There's a big difference between those 2 situations. In fact, assuming your Vernon strip out addition was invisible, this Hamman count could even have one of those extremely common visual "hiccups" that we all dislike (but that Jack doesn't seem to have) and yet the spectators will likely disregard the hiccup when they see that the packet "does" contain what they believed it to contain.

As I said earlier, this is an artificial situation that I created just to make this larger point, but small details like this can help you in a variety of ways.

I used to use this principle in Brother John Hamman's The Twins effect. I would frequently ask the spectators if they wanted to see a really "cute" trick. They always said yes. I would then take out 2 decks of cards and spread through one removing the KS and QS and then spread through the other and remove the QH and KH. That's it. That's the whole "touch" on this trick, but it put up a HUGE mental roadblock in the minds of many of the spectators. After the first phase of the routine (where no magic has happened yet but the cast has been introduced), the spectators thought they completely understood the situation. (They didn't and were about to get blown away.)

By contrast, if you remove the 4 cards from a single deck, you get smiles and pleasantly confused looks on the spectators faces after the first phase, but they're on high alert from that point on and are in a position to more easily back-track the starting conditions, if not the exact method.

After doing the routine both ways, I can tell you that the single deck version is a really great, cute trick and the double deck version is the same trick with an really impenetrable extra layer of smoke added to the front end. The spectators have a much more difficult time undoing their OWN conclusion about what that initial starting packet contained as opposed to undoing and reconstructing what a packet contained where you merely TOLD them it contained one thing and then it turned out to contain something else.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Kimura (Oct 23, 2019 04:05AM)
Thank you for the insightful post, Jason. It's kind of fascinating how adding the deck would check the effect so much for the spectator.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 23, 2019 02:35PM)
"Now when you perform your Hamman count, you're not "displaying" the situation for the first time (which might be interesting enough for your spectators to pay attention to), you're merely reconfirming what they already (think they) know. There's a big difference between those 2 situations."

This mirrors what I stated earlier here about the flushtration count.
And thanks for that good example with the upjogs.
Message: Posted by: pnielan (Nov 2, 2019 10:19PM)
Jason----Regarding the Twins, am I taking your meaning correctly? You removed the 4 cards from 2 decks not allowing the spectators to see what cards you removed?
Message: Posted by: sevenup (Nov 3, 2019 09:18AM)
What a great thread. I have been able to do the count with good rhythm but not with out the normal tells (index finger movement). Due to this thread, I feel I have made great progress in getting things looking much better. I switched to using middle and ring finger for the move. For me, it's easier to do the required move if the left hands cards are positioned more in the fingers instead of the left edge being at the base of the left thumb like the elmsley or Jordan. After that small change, it has become much easier to smoothly transition through the move.

I also never seen that fingertip Hammond count before and after trying it out, that one came vary naturally to me. So again, great thread and thanks for all the great info.
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Nov 3, 2019 10:13AM)
Hamman, not Hammond.
Message: Posted by: sevenup (Nov 3, 2019 12:37PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Hamman, not Hammond. [/quote]
That's not the first time I have misspelled something. I'll correct that pronto.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 3, 2019 02:24PM)
I've seen Bazillions of misspellings of Hamman. Maybe we could collect them all and sell them to benefit the Café. :)
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Nov 3, 2019 03:50PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2019, sevenup wrote:
[quote]On Nov 3, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Hamman, not Hammond. [/quote]
That's not the first time I have misspelled something. I'll correct that pronto. [/quote]

Thanks, I don't believe in being a grammar policeman, but names are the exception. Glad you didn't take it wrong!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 3, 2019 09:04PM)
Hammmah? :D
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 4, 2019 03:41PM)
Halvah?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 4, 2019 05:34PM)
Tried doing the count with the letters of his name :)
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 5, 2019 10:14AM)
Ah, got it. Still think I'd prefer it with slices of halvah.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 6, 2019 08:50AM)
[quote]On Nov 5, 2019, Bob G wrote:
Ah, got it. Still think I'd prefer it with slices of halvah. [/quote]
HaLVaH, me too :)

[technical]? is there a credit/citation for seeming to thumb over [i]not one but two[/i] cards at that central display moment? [/technical]
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Nov 6, 2019 09:17PM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2019, Bob G wrote:
Let me reword my question above in a more useful way: if I want to learn the HC, can anyone recommend a handling that would give me the best chance of learning it, and eventually learning it well?


Thanks,

Bob [/quote]
Yes- Bro. John Hamman’s.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 6, 2019 09:33PM)
Thanks, magicfish. The original, then.