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Topic: Quantity / Volume of Shows?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 5, 2019 05:36PM)
I don't have a direct question.. more like a general train of thought that I think could be interesting to discuss.

The top 3 highest paid magicians (Copperfield, Penn and Teler, Criss Angel) all have permanent, resident shows in Vegas. And they perform ALOT of shows. That would seem to indicate to me, that the goal is to be in a place where you can perform lots of shows, rather than trying to simply get more $$$ per show.

Copperfield "made the most of his millions by performing an astounding 670 shows at the MGM Grand during our scoring period, which is June 1, 2017, to June 1, 2018." - Forbes.

My general thought is, a lot of times it seems the goal is to increase the amount of money you make per show, and actually perform less shows. While that may be the best lifestyle for those wnating to raise a family etc. if the goal is to make money, it seems the quantity of shows is still the key.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 5, 2019 05:57PM)
Great topic, I hope many participate. Many things can be at play here.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 5, 2019 06:49PM)
For some the goal should be to do both, more shows for more money per show.

Two problems come to mind:

1. Most magicians are lazy. They became self employed because they didnít want to work a full time job. And they never understand that being successful in your own business requires more work, not less.

2. Most magicians want to copy other magicians and the one thing that the successful ones have in common is they are not common at all. Those in huge demand are those that are unique.
There is only one Copperfield, Penn and Teler, Criss Angel, etc. True some look and act like them but thatís not being unique, not much demand for those.


Bonus Tip: The more you work the more demand you create.:)


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 5, 2019 07:11PM)
Most magicians are lazy? Perhaps you are and you can speak to that. But every working professional I have ever come across works quite hard.

Many guys doing 8 or 10 kids shows a week I certainly would not call them lazy. I have never come across a person serious about being a professional performer who was lazy. Most get into it because they love performance, not because they wanted to work less.

Your entire post is pretty obnoxious for a guy who is not actually a worker.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 5, 2019 07:20PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2019, thomasR wrote:
I don't have a direct question.. more like a general train of thought that I think could be interesting to discuss.

The top 3 highest paid magicians (Copperfield, Penn and Teler, Criss Angel) all have permanent, resident shows in Vegas. And they perform ALOT of shows. That would seem to indicate to me, that the goal is to be in a place where you can perform lots of shows, rather than trying to simply get more $$$ per show.

Copperfield "made the most of his millions by performing an astounding 670 shows at the MGM Grand during our scoring period, which is June 1, 2017, to June 1, 2018." - Forbes.

My general thought is, a lot of times it seems the goal is to increase the amount of money you make per show, and actually perform less shows. While that may be the best lifestyle for those wnating to raise a family etc. if the goal is to make money, it seems the quantity of shows is still the key. [/quote]

As for this I think it is 2 fold. Sitting a show down in a place is another part of the equation as well as lots of shows.

I have said it for a long time here and been told I'm crazy but the shear number of shows is a very large factor in success.

It also helps you put a great edge on the show.

Couple things you need to consider. First being willing to move. People may not show up in your back yard to see you. You need to go to where they are.

Also it comes with ups and downs. Slow season and such. Not always easy to weather those storms.

Just doing those shows is not the be all and end all. How much you charge for them to come in and what production costs are rule your life.

Copperfield is able to do that number of shows because he has sat the show down. Yes the number is a factor but so are many things.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 5, 2019 07:22PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Most magicians are lazy? Perhaps you are and you can speak to that. But every working professional I have ever come across works quite hard.

Many guys doing 8 or 10 kids shows a week I certainly would not call them lazy. I have never come across a person serious about being a professional performer who was lazy. Most get into it because they love performance, not because they wanted to work less.

Your entire post is pretty obnoxious for a guy who is not actually a worker. [/quote]

Thatís why I started with FOR SOME. If that doesnít include you, feel free to move on.


Bonus Tip Two: You canít correct a problem if you refuse to see the problem.

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 5, 2019 07:39PM)
Excellent points Danny.

So you think sitting the show in one place is key to financial success? (It certainly does appear that way..) vs. trying to travel the show? (I said travel vs. tour because there is the legit touring like they used to do... one night here, one night there. Not sure anyone is currently doing that... Jason Bishop was for a bit... anyone left?) and then there is traveling where you set the show down for a short run of a couple weeks or couple months?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 5, 2019 07:45PM)
There is a lot to this question, much more than most will consider.

On the surface, it appears as one thing, when in reality there is much more ta play.
It is much more than just a simple decision or choice. Oneís business model and performance markets may dictate the proper answer for them.

First, is that matter of the level of the performer. If you are a large, established national entertainer, it may be more of a choice. However, for most here they are not, so their level will likely change this from a choice to a matter of what is required. Part-timers may not have the same concerns and a performer trying to pound out a full-time living.

Also why one performs (very dependent on their current (and honest) level which greatly comes into play, as does where they are at in their career, their desired positioning, and market specialization.

Secondly, it is a matter of business models. Some business models are based on many consistent, regular performances. Others are not. Some are based on going to the audience, others on the audience coming to you (hence the popularity of Vegas, Branson, etc.)

Thirdly, comes the other elements of oneís business. How do you make your money? Many depend solely or primarily on income from their bookings. Others may have 5, 6, 10 or more streams/sources of revenue in their business, which this can also dictate the volume of performances required for sustainability or growth.

For most it is not really an independent choice, but how it plays into their greater picture. For many, it will be determined by the foundational composition of your business, which is why creating the right and proper foundational level for your business is so important (everything is based and will be built upon it.)

For example, Lou Serrano more recently in the ďCoachingĒ thread said he is seeking to work less, for greater amounts. I had several of my coaching students/clients ask me about this statement, and I explained why I didnít feel it was a wise choice and that I would have advised someone in his current position otherwise and then went on to explain why (not picking on Lou but it was a more direct recent example he had been willing to share, thanks Lou, it was beneficial to many).

Again, there is no right or wrong answer to this question, but more about what is attached or involved in the greater picture.

This is a great topic for discussion for performers here of all levels.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 5, 2019 07:50PM)
Well I have done both. I did headlibe comedy club work in the 90's and sat the show down for a week, occasionally two.
Still a tour of sorts.

I have sat shows down in Florida, Branson and, Vegas and in the Caribbean for long periods. This I'm a fan of. The road is just not fun for me. I like to be "home" wherever that might be.


There are touring shows. Kevin Ridgeway and Kristen Johnson tour quite successfully. Lots of guys still do it. It is just not for me any more.

It is a matter of preference I think.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 5, 2019 07:53PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]On Jun 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Most magicians are lazy? Perhaps you are and you can speak to that. But every working professional I have ever come across works quite hard.

Many guys doing 8 or 10 kids shows a week I certainly would not call them lazy. I have never come across a person serious about being a professional performer who was lazy. Most get into it because they love performance, not because they wanted to work less.

Your entire post is pretty obnoxious for a guy who is not actually a worker. [/quote]

Thatís why I started with FOR SOME. If that doesnít include you, feel free to move on.


Bonus Tip Two: You canít correct a problem if you refuse to see the problem.

Tom [/quote]

No Tom. You flat out said most magicians are lazy. It is written, it is obvious. Just because a previous sentence said "for some " in no way changes it.

Yes stop refusing to see the problem.

Since this is about performing professionally in this current century no need for you to keep posting.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 5, 2019 07:55PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2019, thomasR wrote:
Excellent points Danny.

So you think sitting the show in one place is key to financial success? (It certainly does appear that way..) vs. trying to travel the show? (I said travel vs. tour because there is the legit touring like they used to do... one night here, one night there. Not sure anyone is currently doing that... and then there is traveling where you set the show down for a short run of a couple weeks or couple months? [/quote]

I'm just completing in the next couple of weeks my annual spring tour, and yes, almost all of it has been one-nighters in different towns and venues. Short, multi-shows in one place are usually considered "runs" or "residencies" and yes, are considered something different.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 5, 2019 08:07PM)
Mindoro, can you give a hypothetical scenario where it makes sense to focus on doing less shows? Iím sure multiple scenarios exist, just would be easier to understand that way.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 5, 2019 08:32PM)
I can if you don't mind?

For example things do not happen in a vacuum. Life will continue. So if a person is a professional performer and has a family at home and has not sat the show down, doing as few shows as possible while making enough money to be able to support them becomes paramount.

Too often these discussions happen outside the parameters of life itself. Many choose to balance family with performance and it is a delicate balance. Not an easy thing to strike that is for certain.

Some just get tired of the road. It sounds glamorous but it is tiresome. My Google thingie told me I traveled over 59,000 miles last year. It is crazy. And that is me toning DOWN how much I travel! Even with sitting the show down places it involves a lot of travel. I can not imagine having to actually do tours any more.

It is all about individual choices really. All by the way are the correct choice for those who make them. Nobody can tell another the best way to live for them. Each situation is unique and has unique demands.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 5, 2019 09:33PM)
Oh I know that touring isnít glamorous. Crossloading from a broken down bus trailer to a box truck on the side of the interstate in 20 degrees is about as far from glamorous as it gets! Ha.

And yes you are correct, a business model can look all perfect when itís in a sealed bottle like a model ship, but get it out into the real world and conditions are very different!

Another great point is the quality of the show. Thatís another point that canít be fully measured outside of the real world. The show has to be good, and the show has to work for any business plan to work.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 5, 2019 10:19PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2019, thomasR wrote:
Mindoro, can you give a hypothetical scenario where it makes sense to focus on doing less shows? Iím sure multiple scenarios exist, just would be easier to understand that way. [/quote]

Sure. Of course, there are many and varied examples of this but let me give you a generic one that many may someday come to realize.

I am fortunate enough to work with performers of all levels, experience, and locations. Many start and work hard to build up their business. Through a conventional approach, they work continuously on getting more bookings and maybe every few to five years trying to raise their prices a bit. Over years or even decades they develop some kind of "normal" approach to getting new bookings (I believe the balance should be 20-25 new clients/booking each year, and 75-80% retun bookings) and of course also retaining rebookings, referrals, etc. from the shows they have done and for the clients they have served.

Many performers that feel they have performed professionally and supported their family often operate like this. It is an easy business model to settle into and it is often (rinse and repeat) doing the same thing over and over again. Nothing wrong with that.

However, lets say the guy (or girl) is 48, 56. or maybe 63 years old and after decades of doing this finds out he/she has health problems (bad back, cancer, physical deteriation, or perhaps soem kind of disease) and soon discovers that he/she either can no longer continue to do the amount of shows he/she once did due to physical or health limitations, or is ordered from the doctor to only perform let's say once a week or 5 times a month at most.

Using this example for a guy (or girl) that tries to average 15 to 23 shows a month at lests say (to keep it easy) at $1,000 a show, he (and his/her family and lifestyle) is used to earning $15,000-$23,000 a month. He/she now has to cut that amount of shows down to maybe 4 or 5 a month.

So their current options are to take the hit and drop down to $4,000-$5,000 a month income (a huge hit for anyone) or they would have to reposition and restructure their business around only being able to do 4 or 5 shows a month. To maintain this current level of income and comfort he/she would then have to charge $3,000 to $4,600 (or maybe $5,000) per show.

Here is an example where it clearly makes sense to do fewer shows, but in an attempt to maintain their income and lifestyle may have to make such internal adjustments in their business. There may be much more detail to this than I've offered but it is a very common situation as we grow older.

Another example is if one has traveled or toured for years, been a road warrior, and suddenly decides he/she must stay home and can now only perform locally or regionally. This too could be a cause for such a change. I hope this helps.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Jun 6, 2019 02:40AM)
I heard Mark Wilson lecture once. He told the story of a young David Copperfield coming to him for advice. Mark Wilson advised Copperfield NOT to travel with an illusion show because it is not profitable. Copperfield completely ignored this advice for a very long time. It has only been the last 15 to 20 years that he has stopped traveling so much and settled in at Vegas. Copperfield only enjoys a Ďresidencyí because of years of hard work creating an outstanding reputation. I find it remarkable that even though Copperfield is super rich and 62 years old he still does 670 shows per year! I donít care if youíre traveling or not, 670 shows per year is very hard work.

Years ago a magician friend told me he made the decision not to leave his home unless he gets x amount of money. He was going for the less shows, more money business model. Years later he was working part time at a grocery store.

IMHO if money is your goal then the more shows you can do the better, no matter what level you are at, and no matter how much you decide to travel.

But of course, money is not the only measure of success.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jun 6, 2019 07:19AM)
I can think of a few situations where fewer shows can make sense.

My brother is just starting out full time and there is a ton of work to get himself to where he wants to be with his show and business. There is also a need for money though, so there is a temptation to look for more bookings, even in lower priced markets to raise capital. The issue is though, that seeking, booking, traveling and performing such shows takes a lot of time. Time he spends building partnerships and relationships as well as developing his business in a purposeful way for long term sustained growth. One also has to be concerned about brand image when doing shows below their desired standard, in terms of money or venue. As has been stated earlier, a lot depends on where the individual is in relation to their performance, business and life circumstances.

I think what Lou may have been referring to is that raising his price to a point where he is receiving fewer bookings (but more total income) would allow himself to establish his brand at a higher price point while doing fewer shows. He could then continue to build his business among such potential clients that pay premium prices. Iím not sure that was his intent or that it is wise, just one possible scenario where one may consider doing fewer shows, at least for a while.

The names mentioned in the OP are top names in the industry, where maintaining their image is vital for success. I believe that is a strong motive to do many shows, beyond just the joy of getting the money, it keeps them in the news.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 6, 2019 07:30AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, Ken Northridge wrote:
I heard Mark Wilson lecture once. He told the story of a young David Copperfield coming to him for advice. Mark Wilson advised Copperfield NOT to travel with an illusion show because it is not profitable. Copperfield completely ignored this advice for a very long time. It has only been the last 15 to 20 years that he has stopped traveling so much and settled in at Vegas. Copperfield only enjoys a Ďresidencyí because of years of hard work creating an outstanding reputation. I find it remarkable that even though Copperfield is super rich and 62 years old he still does 670 shows per year! I donít care if youíre traveling or not, 670 shows per year is very hard work.

Years ago a magician friend told me he made the decision not to leave his home unless he gets x amount of money. He was going for the less shows, more money business model. Years later he was working part time at a grocery store.

IMHO if money is your goal then the more shows you can do the better, no matter what level you are at, and no matter how much you decide to travel.

But of course, money is not the only measure of success. [/quote]

Well said Ken. Excellemt post.

Yes Copperfield has been going nonstop for years and thatís why I say compared to him MOST are lazy. When it comes to work he has a completely different mindset from the pack.
He enjoys the work above anything in life; itís not work to him. Itís called being a workaholic, a word which most fear becoming.

And regardless of what anyone tells you, you canít set a show down in one place without first having a unique reputation to keep it going. It fails everytime.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 6, 2019 09:28AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
And regardless of what anyone tells you, you canít set a show down in one place without first having a unique reputation to keep it going. It fails everytime.

Tom [/quote]

Unfortunately, this is not true but simply an opinion. There are countless examples that prove this quite incorrect.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 6, 2019 09:37AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
And regardless of what anyone tells you, you canít set a show down in one place without first having a unique reputation to keep it going. It fails everytime.

Tom [/quote]

Unfortunately, this is not true but simply an opinion. There are countless examples that prove this quite incorrect. [/quote]


Name one newcomer to magic that has a show located in one place for any length of time.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 10:04AM)
Warren and Annabel was not well known when they started were they? Certainly not international name. VERY successful for a very long time.

Was Steve Cohn well known before he did how hotel thing?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 6, 2019 10:08AM)
Lots of great thoughts.

While I donít know for a fact, I canít imagine Copperfields tours were losing money. In fact the Forbes article mentioned Criss Angel and David Blaine being as successful as they were that year (2017-2018) because of touring. Now his resident show might be making more money for him, since heís not paying for trucking, transportation, etc.... certainly a business case to be made for a resident show.

Thanks for all the examples. Lots of great thoughts and ideas here.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 10:13AM)
Matt Schulien, Jim Ryan, eddie Fecter, Ernie Spence, Tom Mullica to add a few. Need more Tom. Please adults are talking.

Thomas I can't imagine he was losing money e either because even with the added expense he has been one of the highest paid entertainers for decades. He certainly did OK touring and if I had to pick a winner and loser in that bet I'd say Wilson was wrong. Copperfield made money touring.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 6, 2019 10:19AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
And regardless of what anyone tells you, you canít set a show down in one place without first having a unique reputation to keep it going. It fails everytime.

Tom [/quote]

Unfortunately, this is not true but simply an opinion. There are countless examples that prove this quite incorrect. [/quote]


Name one newcomer to magic that has a show located in one place for any length of time.

Tom [/quote]

Dennis Watkins - Magic Parlor in Chicago
Noah Wells - Destin FL
John Magic - Austin TX
Tristan Crist - Lage Geneva WI
Terry Evanswood - Pigeon Forge TN
Magicians Agency - San Francisco (they have guests but mostly itís Scott Pepper)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 10:20AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, Ken Northridge wrote:

Years ago a magician friend told me he made the decision not to leave his home unless he gets x amount of money. He was going for the less shows, more money business model. Years later he was working part time at a grocery store.
[/quote]

This is all too common in the industry. It is what nobody wants to talk about. We see all the puffery and such here when most of the time this is the case.

Now mind you there is nothing inherently wrong working at a grocery store. This is not the point I believe you are making at all. Neither am I.

Starting out in this business is not fast process regardless of what the books and guru types want to sell you. If it was easy everyone would do it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 6, 2019 10:30AM)
Yeah, I was thinking my friend Terry Evanswood as well as one of the first to come to mind (pretty much right out of high school, lol), along with Rick Wilcox up in the Wisconsin Dells. Criss Angel when he started his own show in NY. Even in Vegas or Branson Danny Ganns was one of the top headliners yet rarely known outside of this town. Look at all the guys in Branson magic or otherwise, who were/are all unknowns when they came to town, and look at guys like our buddy Doug, Danny, what's he been there 15-20 years now (or more) as a top headliner, staring as a complete unknown?

Point is it was simply an untrue statement.

Also, here's where the beauty of 2/4 walls can come in and play a key role is establishing yourself. The common misperception is that 2/4 walls are only for established performers.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 10:37AM)
If we are expanding beyond magic the entire city of Branson can practicality be named! Along with Pigeon Forge and mammy other towns like them.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 6, 2019 10:42AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
This is all too common in the industry. It is what nobody wants to talk about. We see all the puffery and such here when most of the time this is the case.[/quote]

So true and also exactly why I often bring up "business models" as a subject no one seems to want to delve into. It can be the sole factor to the success or failure of your business. So many only go as far as the "default" business model and get stuck there, some never realizing there are so many others to choose from which may be far better suited for their vision and business (based on their foundational decisions.) Yes, this is also part of the foundational process I regularly discuss.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 6, 2019 10:48AM)
Terry Evanswood is a professional magician who has appeared in live stage shows and on television throughout the United States as well as on international stages.
He has performed professionally since the age of 10. Not hardly a newcomer.

All those Danny named were unique and not your average pick a card magician.

Still, none named are hardly superstars like Copperfield and those named in the beginning.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 11:03AM)
Just never admit you're wrong Tom. Keep going.

News flash Tom. Most those I mentioned are pick a card guys lol.

Please let the adults talk.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 6, 2019 11:04AM)
Of course not they are the top of the industry (today), but you are delusional if you think that is how they started. They too were unknowns, which is why this was a ridiculous question.

And other than in close magic circles, Terry was still an unknown (to the public) when he arrived in Pigeon Forge. It comes in handy to have a father who is a bank president to create and finance such opportunities.

There are very few "superstars" of magic to the general public.

Also, you said "not having a unique reputation" in your original post, never saying anything about a "newcomer" until later. Regardless, two HUGELY different things.

It would also be great to stick to the original topic as it is a good one for those who are working performers and operating an entertainment business.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 6, 2019 11:12AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
Of course not they are the top of the industry (today), but you are delusional if you think that is how they started.

[/quote]

I completely agree, they didn't start there, and that is excatly what I'm saying.

Average will remain average until they break from the rest.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 11:21AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
Of course not they are the top of the industry (today), but you are delusional if you think that is how they started.

[/quote]

I completely agree, they didn't start there, and that is excatly what I'm saying.

Average will remain average until they break from the rest.

Tom [/quote]

When did you say that? And who cares?

Please lets not have you drag this ropic info the swamp and drown in line you always do. The original topic is great. You don't know anything about it so please stop.

I promise if you stop and start your own thread about your failed magic shop or daycare magic or whatever you want I'll leave it alone. Just stop ruining good topics worry nonsense.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 11:35AM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2019, thomasR wrote:
Oh I know that touring isnít glamorous. Crossloading from a broken down bus trailer to a box truck on the side of the interstate in 20 degrees is about as far from glamorous as it gets! Ha.

And yes you are correct, a business model can look all perfect when itís in a sealed bottle like a model ship, but get it out into the real world and conditions are very different!

Another great point is the quality of the show. Thatís another point that canít be fully measured outside of the real world. The show has to be good, and the show has to work for any business plan to work. [/quote]

I am fortunate enough to tour a hypnosis show so busses and trailers are foreign to me! As a matter of fact it is one reason that drew me TO the hypnosis show in the first place. It covers just as big a stage, or as small a stage as available. Load in is not horrible. All these things played into my decision to persue this art. All that money not spent helps.

No maintenance of props or trailers, no extra fuel and such. A bag and a microphone. Off topic but it makes touring easier.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 6, 2019 11:58AM)
Danny, I honestly believe that if I said this site was Green, you and Mindpro, would argue that it wasnít. If you donít like what I say why canít you just not comment on it,
and stop the back and forth and derailing the topic.

I donít think you can help not responding to any opinion different than your own. Itís you wanting to be king here that has run everybody away and you are too far gone to see it.

99 Percent of my posts on here (check it) are followed by your smart*** remarks and I'm betting you are to weak not to make another one right here.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 12:47PM)
Actually Tom manipulating me like that is not possible. Want to try another tactic?

I did check it. Do you want to make an agreement about your 99% figure? Better yet if you are wrong how about you don't post in this section again? If it is 99% I'll stop posting. I am guessing you are to weak to back up your words. (By "on here" we assume you mean on TMC.)

I have trouble not pointing out absurdly incorrect statements I admit to that failing.

Perhaps if you made fewer of them you might not be corrected so much.

Just try admitting you are wrong just once. Refusing to see the problem and all that.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 6, 2019 12:55PM)
LOL. It took you 11 minutes that time.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 01:21PM)
Like I said Tom please stop derailing this good topic.

And it is funny you trying to do this when it has been proven toy yourself can't help posting. Like for example you can't help answering this, even though you have NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE.

Please send me a PM if you need to keep actng like this. No need to force everyone to read it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 6, 2019 03:48PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, I honestly believe that if I said this site was Green, you and Mindpro, would argue that it wasnít.[/quote]

Why drag me into your argument? I was simply stating that your opinion being passed off as fact was incorrect.

This site being green is a fact which is correct, which is much different than an incorrect opinion. Nothing to argue about, just setting the record straight.

Now thomasR, are you still there?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 6, 2019 04:13PM)
Mindpro, since you plainly said in your post , ďthere is no right or wrong answer to this questionĒ what exactly was wrong with my answer?

Never mind, youíre about as clueless as Danny.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 04:16PM)
Can't resist can you? Please let us talk about the topic and not your agenda.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 6, 2019 05:35PM)
Since my lazy comment got twisted all out of context before I go maybe I should add:

In my book, ďInspiring Words To Help Get Your Lazy Butt Off The CouchĒ I explained that no one is immune to the occasional sluggishness, and if we are completely honest with ourselves, we all are in fact lazy at times. Itís nothing to be offended about, itís just a fact. How we got into the lazy mood isn't important. Getting out of that mood is very important. The book is not in print anymore and no longer available to the public but at one time it was a high dollar book on ebay. Maybe one day I will post a few excerpts from it.

Anyway back on topic. And I still say Ken said it well in his post.

Tom
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Jun 6, 2019 05:35PM)
Man I'd like to jump into this foray! :pop:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 08:08PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Since my lazy comment got twisted all out of context before I go maybe I should add:

In my book, ďInspiring Words To Help Get Your Lazy Butt Off The CouchĒ I explained that no one is immune to the occasional sluggishness, and if we are completely honest with ourselves, we all are in fact lazy at times. Itís nothing to be offended about, itís just a fact. How we got into the lazy mood isn't important. Getting out of that mood is very important. The book is not in print anymore and no longer available to the public but at one time it was a high dollar book on ebay. Maybe one day I will post a few excerpts from it.

Anyway back on topic. And I still say Ken said it well in his post.

Tom [/quote]

Now your quoting YOURSELF to justify something YOU SAID? OH MY is this hilarious!! And more over quoting a book NOBODY has heard of and is out of print! Does it include stories from 1980 and tales of imaginary friends?

Your comment was not taken out of context. It was word for word.

"For some the goal should be to do both, more shows for more money per show.

Two problems come to mind:

1. Most magicians are lazy. They became self employed because they didnít want to work a full time job. And they never understand that being successful in your own business requires more work, not less.

2. Most magicians want to copy other magicians and the one thing that the successful ones have in common is they are not common at all. Those in huge demand are those that are unique.
There is only one Copperfield, Penn and Teler, Criss Angel, etc. True some look and act like them but thatís not being unique, not much demand for those.


Bonus Tip: The more you work the more demand you create.Smile


Tom"

YOU SAID the first problem is most magicians are lazy. Not that they are lazy at times if they are honest with themselves. No. Now you want to hang an air freshener on it since you got busted for being an elitist snob and acting all superior. You said it flat out and the "for some" was for the sentence above. It does not absolve you from acting like a nit later.

Also your second point is pretty offensive also accusing most guys of just being copies of others. Again maybe that is you and your career but it is not 90% of those I work with in any field.

Hopefully you are gone for real Tom. Stop derailing this thread please. It can still be salvaged. We all know what you are. We know all about your billion dollar companies, and your successful books and your incredible magic career and all that you are successful with. No need to keep going please. I know you are a last word sort so I am pretty sure you will be back. After all this is only the first time you implied you were done, I am sure you have lots more to go.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 6, 2019 08:33PM)
So how do we get this back going again....

I think something Iím really zoning in on is creating a business where you are working as much as you want, and not waiting to get booked.
In the case of the 3 top performers I mentioned, that means their own theatre deal in Vegas.... that can be scaled to various markets and sizes of shows (Steve Cohen...).

Thereís also a few oppprtunities at theme parks, resorts, etc. that will actually hire performers seasonally... the right gig can be pretty good. Terry Ward has been at Disney World for close to 30 years now. Thatís another situation where he is working ALOT.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 08:51PM)
I think you hit the key. Working as much as you want.

Now mind you this is easier said than done. It takes years, often decades to reach this. It is a wonderful illustration of the difference in simple and easy. Such as running a marathon could not be more simple. Just keep running until you're done. But it certainly is not easy.

Many if not all of us start where you take any gig can. Even those that might not fit are taken, and for good reason. Not only for money, but they hone you into a better performer.

I e guys here who don't take jobs because they don't "need" the money. In my mind as a performer what you learn from those shows is invaluable. I see it as a mistake to turn them down early in a career. It is often the only way to develop some skills.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 6, 2019 10:38PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, thomasR wrote:
So how do we get this back going again....

I think something Iím really zoning in on is creating a business where you are working as much as you want, and not waiting to get booked.
In the case of the 3 top performers I mentioned, that means their own theatre deal in Vegas.... that can be scaled to various markets and sizes of shows (Steve Cohen...).

Thereís also a few oppprtunities at theme parks, resorts, etc. that will actually hire performers seasonally... the right gig can be pretty good. Terry Ward has been at Disney World for close to 30 years now. Thatís another situation where he is working ALOT. [/quote]

Idea is to partner with an established business that has a steady stream of customers that you can convert to fans of yours.

Much smaller than Disney but I know some thatís done this with the pizza business with great success.

Some do well working the different month long Renaissance Fairs. Also the established weekend flea markets could work. Some are large with great attendance.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 11:12PM)
Not even close to the point.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ridgeway (Jun 6, 2019 11:22PM)
Lots of great informative in this thread. Mostly from two gentlemen I truly admire and value their experience and input. For us and the market that we do 95% of our work in, there is a ceiling on price or Ďwhat the market will bearí. So there were several things that pointed to how we can make more money.

First- Do more shows as the OP stayed. 2018 was our busiest year and we did exactly 350 shows.

Second- Routing. Of those 350 shows we did them all in 6,111 miles. We have a bus and stacker trailer that hauls the show and a car, so fuel mileage is quite low. Even with that, we spent only $4,000 in fuel for the entire year. Less wear and tear on equipment and us. Plus more money in our pocket.

Third- We sell Kristenís merchandise after each show. We would like to be doing more, but it does fairly well. More shows equals more merchandise sales.

Fourth- More shows equals more audience which equals more opportunities for the right person to see us that wants or needs our services. Our show IS our own infomercial. And we get paid to advertise as such.

Hope that helps!!!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2019 11:37PM)
Only 4 grand in fuel? The two of you need to give driving lessons! Talk about fuel efficiency.

Also condescending the shows into that mileage is an amazing tip.

Kevin how many years was ir before you could squash the schedule to that geographic location or was it something you did immediately?

As I mentioned when there is nothing to bring but a car and suitcase it is not as big an issue. But with the load in you guys have it must be a HUGE consideration, along with routing. (Which will be my next pesty question so get ready.)

Also GET WELL!
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Jun 7, 2019 05:43AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, thomasR wrote:
While I donít know for a fact, I canít imagine Copperfields tours were losing money. In fact the Forbes article mentioned Criss Angel and David Blaine being as successful as they were that year (2017-2018) because of touring. Now his resident show might be making more money for him, since heís not paying for trucking, transportation, etc.... certainly a business case to be made for a resident show.
[/quote]

I did not explain my story very well. I did not mean to suggest Copperfield lost money on his tours. Mark Wilson was very humble in the fact that his advice turned out to be dead wrong. I'm sure Copperfield's tours were very successful.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 7, 2019 05:44AM)
So great to hear from Kevin and Kristen. I hope you're both doing well and feeling better. Great to hear some insight from others working the road too. This is a great example of when I said the answer to the OP's question could be dependent on business model or as in this case the market you serve. Also great numbers you mention as well. There's two ways to make money in business - generate more business and revenue, and reduce and decrease expenses.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 7, 2019 06:58AM)
[quote]On Jun 7, 2019, Ken Northridge wrote:
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, thomasR wrote:
While I donít know for a fact, I canít imagine Copperfields tours were losing money. In fact the Forbes article mentioned Criss Angel and David Blaine being as successful as they were that year (2017-2018) because of touring. Now his resident show might be making more money for him, since heís not paying for trucking, transportation, etc.... certainly a business case to be made for a resident show.
[/quote]

I did not explain my story very well. I did not mean to suggest Copperfield lost money on his tours. Mark Wilson was very humble in the fact that his advice turned out to be dead wrong. I'm sure Copperfield's tours were very successful. [/quote]


The lecture I watched, Mark was talking about losing money on the TV specials. But they were needed to promote his name.


Tom
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 7, 2019 08:26AM)
ThomasR, my apologies for being a part of the distraction.

But I am confused, are you looking to tour a show or a stationary place to perform, like many that have been mentioned? You might say, having a place to come home to.

The fair market where you have to set up, tear down and then move to the next town every week or so is not something you can compare to a Vegas type Show that sits there,
a dinner show, etc located in the same place all the time. Is it?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 7, 2019 10:04AM)
He is not saying he is looking to do either.

Were you not gonna to be done? Can't stop can you?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 7, 2019 10:15AM)
I understand him wanting to do either more shows or fewer shows
Just curious on how he wants to do it.

Thatís all.
Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 7, 2019 10:38AM)
"I don't have a direct question.. more like a general train of thought that I think could be interesting to discuss."

You could try actually reading his first post.

Those of us who actually perform have been answering. You have been derailing. Can you stop now? Obviously you are not even paying attention.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 7, 2019 12:29PM)
Iím open to both. I love historic theaters and would love to create a show designed to perform in those types of venues and tour them... but thatís my personal interest. If it makes more business sense to have a sit down show, Iím open to that as well. As Danny mentioned... thatís not a quick journey to get to.

But the post is more than what Iím personally interested in... itís driving home the point that one show a weekend, no matter how much you get per show, is never going to equal 5 nights a week worth of revenue.

Loved hearing from Kevin, mentioning the Merch sales is very important!
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 7, 2019 12:42PM)
Yes Kevin is a hard worker.

Sometimes I think he has to get hurt to take time off. LOL

He is also a good example of one needing a unique act to stay busy.

Wishing him the best

Tom
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ridgeway (Jun 7, 2019 01:04PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Only 4 grand in fuel? The two of you need to give driving lessons! Talk about fuel efficiency.

Also condescending the shows into that mileage is an amazing tip.

Kevin how many years was ir before you could squash the schedule to that geographic location or was it something you did immediately?

As I mentioned when there is nothing to bring but a car and suitcase it is not as big an issue. But with the load in you guys have it must be a HUGE consideration, along with routing. (Which will be my next pesty question so get ready.)

Also GET WELL! [/quote]

Danny...it took roughly 10 year of learning the road from seasoned performers and making enough good contacts ourselves. For years we did 15,000-20,000 miles a year. That was way too many miles and too much wear and tear on myself and Kristen. We took every show we could, and the biggest thing is said yes TOO EARLY, causing us to cross cross the country like madmen.

Now we focus on several anchor dates and fill in the holes. For several years now we have focused on the Midwest and more importantly the Southeast part the the country. We only had two big jumps of 600 miles each. Everything else were short jumps of 42 miles, 75miles, 150 miles, etc. Our entire fall was 8 weeks just in Georgia alone. Last year those final 8 weeks of the year came to a total of 345 miles. Thatís 8 weeks and 112 shows with only $210 in fuel costs. That comes out to less than $2 per show in fuel costs.

Hopefully that didnít bore everyone to death with the numbers and it wasn't intended to impress anyone. But just wanted to explain one of the ways to KEEP more money in your pocket.

Thanks to everyone for the well wishes. Iím getting better and we plan to start back to shows August 2nd.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 7, 2019 01:28PM)
Kevin... that's not boring. That's invaluable!!

I've worked for the past 4 years for a touring act out of Nashville... as we speak we are jumping from Nashville TN to Omaha Nebraska with a Tour Bus and a Semi full of gear for 1 show. The tour we were on this past winter had 4 semis and 10 tour busses and we were jumping around the west coast with no rhyme or reason, like you said, the booking agents just took whatever gigs they could get. You know how the fuel and driver costs add up with all those vehicles.. makes no sense. My point being you have managed to figure out what professional management and booking agents still don't know. Congrats!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 7, 2019 02:04PM)
Yes Kevin a decade to be able to develop to what you have. This is the point I'm making.

It has less to do with the act (Though that obviously is important.) and more to do with doing WHATEVER IT TAKES. It takes doing that for over a decade yes and no book or course or guru speak changes this.

Thanks for sharing. I wad beginning to think I was just slow lol.

As I said I'm fortunate. A simple plane ticket and I can do dates pretty far away. It gives me more flexibility. It was a conscious decision I made with the show I do. I cover way more miles, about 10x more, but my travel expenses are way under those numbers. Just different ways to do things is all. (Plus I can't do a brake jobv the way Kristen can.)
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 8, 2019 07:08AM)
[quote]On Jun 7, 2019, thomasR wrote:
I've worked for the past 4 years for a touring act out of Nashville... as we speak we are jumping from Nashville TN to Omaha Nebraska with a Tour Bus and a Semi full of gear for 1 show. The tour we were on this past winter had 4 semis and 10 tour busses and we were jumping around the west coast with no rhyme or reason, like you said, the booking agents just took whatever gigs they could get. You know how the fuel and driver costs add up with all those vehicles.. makes no sense. My point being you have managed to figure out what professional management and booking agents still don't know. Congrats! [/quote]

I think the key is Keven & Kristen are very hands-on and do not just sit back and wait for management or booking agents contact them with dates. That is part of the problem for many touring acts.

Don't rely on agents, it not their job to book dates solely. Any act that does so, unless well-established, will suffer. This is one of the great advantages to the self-represented artist, that also work with agents and agencies, rather than being solely reliant on any agent/agency.

There is a key component missing to the scenario thomasR demonstrated above, which is likely why it seems like random dates here and there, a mish-mosh of road work without real routing, runs, etc.


Going back to the initial discussion it didn't seem like thomasR was trying to make a decision or determine anything like some of the advice here by some seems to be offering, but rather than to discuss the benefits, pros, and cons of both.

Most doing a residency or their own venue show do so after being established first. With that said it is possible for completely unknown to also do the same and it be the thing that helps get them known and positioned. Knowledge and education of such a business model is the key and it can be very easy to blow this (and lose money) if you really don't know what you're doing. But given someone learns the knowledge of the model, it can be the thing that allows you not to have to travel and audiences find and come to you. It is a process though, which will not occur with a short-run residency, but more as maybe a 2-5 year plan.

I also am not always convinced that less shows should equal more money. Of course more shows, more money can later, eventually lead to less shows more money once you have a permanent fan/client-base to operate off of. You must also remember typically more hows may also mean less money as well - something else to consider. Often runs, residencies, etc. expect to pay less than your typical one-nighter rate, they expect a deal or package price which, while allowing you a nice chunk of gigs, income, exposure, and (if you are doing it properly) press and media coverage, you will actually earn less than if you did all one-nighters at full pay.

Full-time performers, especially road acts, understand this and the concept of pick-up dates. Again, not always more money, but more bookings, less off days on the road (which usually COST you money), but keep an act afloat while on the road. This is where understanding weekday pricing vs. prime weekend pricing comes into play, as does primary vs. secondary geographical markets as it pertains to pricing/income. There's so many ther factors and premises to understand first.

Many good ideas and possibilities here and so much of it depends on your business model, the markets you serve, and what your short-term and long-term goals are.

For example, the prominent business model for generations was release a product (CD, album, single, book, movie, t.v. special, etc.) and then hit the road performing to promote it. The gigs may be less paying (per gig) but the hopeful, larger profits and benfits will result the greater the promoted project ends up becoming. This is why you will hear nationally touring acts say they aren't makimg much, because the tour is in support of something else. Until that pays off you are simply supporting the project on the road. Just another example to try to understand.

So after giving us this info above thomasR what you are considering as you move forward? Also, if I am remembering correctly this is not a magic act you are on the road with and speak of, correct? You are part of a crew for another type of show? Are you considering this for a different future project of your own?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 8, 2019 05:47PM)
Correct Iím currently working as a touring lighting designer for a music act based out of Nashville.... nothing to do with magic or variety unfortunately.

For me? I donít have a clear plan going forward.
What I know is I donít want to be booking one show at a time and hoping enough work comes in to keep me busy.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 8, 2019 08:52PM)
Always hated that way of working. I agree completely.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 10, 2019 12:21PM)
I wanted to chime in with what Mindoro mentioned about pick-up dates aka ďrouted dates.Ē
Iíve worked for a lot of touring bands, and Iíve found the bigger name artists do this less and less. Which seems odd since their expenses are higher (more busses, more trucks etc.). Iím not sure if itís an ego thing ďI wonít perform for less than x amountĒ or an artist just being hands off and the booking agents only booking shows that call them... either way itís the total opposite of what the magic acts I mentioned at the beginning of this thread do. Of course, the music indistry is quite different. Money comes from other sources than concerts, and thatís an important thing to note as well.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 10, 2019 12:40PM)
One thing to keep in mind it might not be ego. Putting on shows costs lots of money in many cases. If the room is too small they can lose money. Maybe it is a union house and it costs even more. Maybe it is s non compete clause withthe bigger place they are in. This is not at all uncommon.

There are LOTS of factors that go into the decision. Maybe they end up paying sound guy overtime, or any number of a thousand things that will make it expensive to do extra dates.

Bigger name artists are handled by companies that worries about all the dates. Their contracts don't usually allow for them to decide to do their own dates. With bigger names there are dozzens involved in those decisions. Almost never it involves the artist directly.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 10, 2019 01:07PM)
The artist Iím working for is a national act playing arenas and large amphitheaterís. While he has management and booking agents, he is VERY Involved and personally approves every show he does. Other artists Iíve worked for were pretty much the same way, but also on a smaller level (clubs like house of blues, etc.).

I can assure you the sound and lighting guys donít get overtime!!! Ha.

You are correct in the number of factors that can go into a decision. Obviously the amount of money for a show has to make the show worth while. Iím talking about routed dates where you help to break up the fixed costs of bringing out a show. The last run we did for example, required 2 bus drivers. If we had routed dates on each end, we could have had only 1 driver, and obviously the cost of fuel for the semi / bus would have been broken up among more shows. Also the production gear is rented per week, taking it out for 3 shows on the weekend is the same as 1.

But itís not my company and I imagine many factors that Iím not aware of were in play. Just throwing it out there that Kevinís version of touring makes more sense to me! Ha.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 10, 2019 02:06PM)
The sound guy does not get overtime? Ever work in Chicago? Union rules apply to all employees often regardless if they are in the union or not. Often it is a question of the sound guy at the House of Blues needing the overtime, not the tour guy.

Yes there are factors. MANY that go into it and it is rough the bigger you get. Get a record label involved and it REALLY is confusing. I hate all the logistics that go into it. That is yet another reason I prefer to be in residence some place.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 10, 2019 02:41PM)
The touring staff do not get overtime no. We donít get paid hourly so that doesnít apply. And yeah we work union houses, doesnít change our pay at all just makes our life better or worse depending on the city. Ha.

But yeah house staff can be all over the place and youíre right that all has to go into the planning. If the routed date option is an after expenses split with the promoter vs. flat fee and the only venue is a strict union house.... that could totally come into play.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 10, 2019 06:01PM)
Just because you donít get paid by the hour doesnít mean you are exempt from getting overtime. Thatís federal law and they can enforce it, I know from experience.
Not so long ago I got hit with a random audit and I spent two full weeks going through two years of time cards with a lady from the Federal Dept of Labor figuring
back pay for all my employees. Only a select few in higher management are exempt from overtime and those have limits. I was lucky and avoided a fine and only
had to pay a little in back pay, but I did learn a lot from it. The Federal people are serious about going by the book.:)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jun 10, 2019 07:35PM)
I'm with ThomasR on this one. I just got back in from 7 weeks in Europe, 17 countries, 26 cities. 2 Tour Busses, 3 Semi's. I have a weekly rate for what I do. We know the hours going in and bid it accordingly. We'll be doing the same gig in North America (US/Canada) starting September, mostly union houses. We don't fall under their guidelines outside of basic safety standards (Hard Hats, steel toes, PPE, etc). They could care less what we get paid, as long as we have their minimum numbers hired. In fact, since we're doing one-nighters we typically have an expanded crew just to get our shows up in 6 hours and down in 4.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 11, 2019 12:00PM)
Always great to hear from you Ray. Up in 6 hours? Iíll keep my pre-rigged GT truss that rolls on and off the semi thank you! Ha.
But then again you may be working on aerials / circus arts which is a lot more fun than what I currently do!

All this should make us think.... if we are designing a show that we want to do a lot, either touring or resident show, it would make sense to minimize cast and crew costs while still maximizing production value. Having illusions that you can perform solo without a trained assistant for example, having Audio / lighting automated or simplified to reduce or eliminate tech crew.... hey perhaps you can block your show to the point that you donít need stage hands! A lot is possible.

And of course Dannyís plan of doing a style of show that minimizes props is also a good plan.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 11, 2019 12:36PM)
This is why details and context are so important in these types of topics and discussions. One size does not fit all, yet, as so common in the magic community, people tend to take other's knowledge, insight, and experience and adapt it to their own context or own situations. It does not always transfer the same across the bard.

Touring, like Danny, as a hypnotist I have done it both ways - with a full-crew, vehicles, production, payroll, etc, and also as just me and my stage rig. Two entirely different things with two different business models and outcomes.

Unless you are an employee or salaried position, much of the general business stuff Tom has offered likely will not apply. Most performers and tours use contractors which can be much different.

Also, there are other, let's call them "in between" options that no one has mentioned here. It is not just solo road work/tour or having a full crew that travels and operates with you. There is such a thing as traveling and functioning solo, yet picking up local onsite contractors in each town on your route. It can be an alternative to costly road costs eliminating food, lodging, per diem, and travel costs for a crew or team.

As far as pickup dates, that too as I've said can vary and depend on your business model and the size of your staff or operation. Sometimes if you have a large crew it may not be worth it, yet when traveling with a smaller show or just yourself, a Monday, Tuesday, Thursday or Sunday pickup date can be good income opportunity. I have done some PU dates for little or nothing (door), knowing I'd bring in $500-$2,500 in Merchandise sales for the night that would still make it profitable and worth my time and efforts. Plus I have always viewed off days on the road as an expense, where I would be spending money. Anytime I could make money versus spending money was worth consideration to me.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 11, 2019 12:47PM)
I have dealt with many touring companies that bring the key guys for every spot, and hire out local the rest. Heck even some orchestras travel with the first chairs and hire out the rest. This method helps in Union houses.

I have no clue what Tom is talking about, but it doesn't apply. Most of these things are bid as independent contractors or vendors. Comparing to a Daycare center is ridiculous. Or maybe it isn't and I just don't see it.

But running a tour the way you would a Daycare center seems like a recipe for disaster. Not everything translates directly lol.

But as Mindpro has pointed out time and again this business has unique traits that can't be thought of as normal business. If you are not actually involved in it currently it is just not easy to know. You can't just think you know.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 11, 2019 01:03PM)
If you get into a place line Chicago you will discover terms like "tailgate delivery". You will find an electricians union with a guy or some that is you want the house they must be paid for the night. Even if all he does is sit in the office he is paid because of the union contact.

Also a decorators union and Teamsters and some others you may not think of. No joking. Their contact us with the house and is very specific. Try working McCormick Place or the Rosemont expo center. Even just having a booth is subject to the unions.

It is crazy. No joke they have this stranglehold on the houses. Not all of them but quite a few. It can make touring difficult till you figure out who to bribe.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 11, 2019 01:56PM)
Danny, what have I told you about following me around with you smart+++ comments. You just can't resist, can you?

I was speaking to the overtime comments. ALL Business be it a touring show, a daycare, or a hot dog stand, must follow the federal labor law guidelines.

And No Danny Doyle and Mindpro are Not Exempt (See I can do it too)

True some independent contractors arenít due overtime. But in an effort not to pay overtime wages some and it often does happen that employers will misclassify employees as independent
contractors, when they are actually ďemployeesĒ This is not always done on purpose, some are just not aware of the law.

If you are under the direct control of your employer and they have authority over how your work should be performed, then you ARE NOT an independent contractor.

That Is the Law, and if you don't belive it, Check It Out and get back with me.

With that said, those here probably are legal independent contractors, but donít think just because the job is for a Star all laws are followed. You may be getting the shaft and not know it.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 11, 2019 02:25PM)
I guess Ray and Thomas are wrong and the world's foremost authority is correct.

Tom I responded in the thread before you. Look up the word following.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 11, 2019 02:27PM)
I guess Ray and Thomas are wrong and the world's foremost authority is correct.

Tom I responded in the thread before you. Look up the word following. 9

Also I am not the one telling you that you are wrong. It is Ray and Thomas.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 11, 2019 02:38PM)
While I made a joke about sound and light guys not getting overtime, I didnít mean to imply that I thought I deserved it either.
On a typical day, if I divide the number of hours I work into my day rate Iím getting paid a very very high hourly rate. Of course my day rate takes into account that I am spending the entire day in a random city and I will be sleeping on a tour bus or hotel and not my home. But yeah regardless of you being right or wrong, Iím not gonna ask for overtime and wreck a good deal!
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 11, 2019 02:50PM)
ďthere are other, let's call them "in between" options that no one has mentioned here. It is not just solo road work/tour or having a full crew that travels and operates with you. There is such a thing as traveling and functioning solo, yet picking up local onsite contractors in each town on your route. It can be an alternative to costly road costs eliminating food, lodging, per diem, and travel costs for a crew or team. ď

Yes Mindoro! If you are self-promoting the shows, usually you have to pay for certain staff memebers at a theatre if you need them or not. If you have a proper cue sheet written up you can use the house guys instead of bringing your own staff. You just have to plan your show with that in mind.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 11, 2019 03:23PM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2019, thomasR wrote:
While I made a joke about sound and light guys not getting overtime, I didnít mean to imply that I thought I deserved it either.
On a typical day, if I divide the number of hours I work into my day rate Iím getting paid a very very high hourly rate. Of course my day rate takes into account that I am spending the entire day in a random city and I will be sleeping on a tour bus or hotel and not my home. But yeah regardless of you being right or wrong, Iím not gonna ask for overtime and wreck a good deal! [/quote]


I didnít take it that you were complaining, I was just throwing out some more thoughts on the subject. Many employees are led to believe that they are independent contractors when in fact they are not.

I just wanted to paint a picture for those that may be taken advantage of. It only takes one phone call to get the problem fixed.

Main thing is you are satisfied.

Now donít work to hard.:)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 11, 2019 03:30PM)
Yep it only takes a phone call to completely lose everything you are working for.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jun 11, 2019 05:35PM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2019, thomasR wrote:
Always great to hear from you Ray. Up in 6 hours? Iíll keep my pre-rigged GT truss that rolls on and off the semi thank you! Ha.
But then again you may be working on aerials / circus arts which is a lot more fun than what I currently do![/quote]

lol... we HAD pre-rigged truss! 2 - 5 stick lengths for first and second electrics (40 VL 3000's). 18 motors, 1 aerial truss, 1 US scenic truss, 1 DS Traveller truss, 1 Projector Truss, a LOT of scenic (30' rolling staircases, US Scenic piece w/integrated FP Screen) 16 K Projector, plus a lot of ground lights, hazers, low level foggers, effects, inflatables etc. We got it DOWN to 6 hours after a lot of work. The first few dates we just stopped building when the house opened.

[quote] All this should make us think.... if we are designing a show that we want to do a lot, either touring or resident show, it would make sense to minimize cast and crew costs while still maximizing production value. Having illusions that you can perform solo without a trained assistant for example, having Audio / lighting automated or simplified to reduce or eliminate tech crew.... hey perhaps you can block your show to the point that you donít need stage hands! A lot is possible [/quote]

Absolutely! When I was touring with my illusion show, I designed everything possible with pin hinges and other connections that didn't require any tools. The cast broke down all the illusions during the show (The road cases were left open behind the cyc). All the hanging scenic was soft goods that went into dedicated hampers. By the end of Intermission, Act 1 was on the dock. Our best out time was 32 minutes from the time the curtain came down until the truck door closed. Then again, the show was designed with that in mind. Everything we needed the local crew for utilized standardized methods known to any stagehand that we could explain and have them execute. ("Hamper 1 on Pipe 3, Hamper 2 on Pipe 7", etc.) We didn't have to carry basic lighting which helped a LOT. Relying on follow spot cues for most of the special coverage saved hours of time. We did have some US effects lights and toys but nothing that took too long for the house crew to pack without instructions. As you said, it's all about clever design with the market in mind!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 11, 2019 08:22PM)
I agree as these are some great points. Many performers don't create their show or think of their performance elements (tricks, effects, scenes, etc.) with the setup and breakdown in mind. These logistics can result in many differences in getting rebooked, expenses in crew or staff, transport, and many other factors. This is as important as any component in the show for any mobile or traveling show - anything less than a permanently set venue.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Ridgeway (Jun 11, 2019 09:22PM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
I agree as these are some great points. Many performers don't create their show or think of their performance elements (tricks, effects, scenes, etc.) with the setup and breakdown in mind. These logistics can result in many differences in getting rebooked, expenses in crew or staff, transport, and many other factors. This is as important as any component in the show for any mobile or traveling show - anything less than a permanently set venue. [/quote]


So correct... almost no illusion builder out there designs illusions and the needed road cases with Ďtruck packí in mind. Now I guarantee there are magicians in here currently googling truck pack....lol. Iíll save you the effort. In the real world of production most trucks are 90Ē wide. And every single road case is a multiple thereof- 22.5Ē, 30Ē, 45Ē or 60". This makes for the best use of truck space as well as the least amount of strapping or securing cases.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jun 12, 2019 03:22PM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2019, Kevin Ridgeway wrote:
So correct... almost no illusion builder out there designs illusions and the needed road cases with Ďtruck packí in mind.[/quote]

Hey Kevin! lol... you're giving away the real dirt here! Yes, most touring cases are built to be a modular part of a truck load, even for stacking as well. The pieces that are too large for cases get strapped to rolling carts that are again designed to roll onto the truck in order and fill the space evenly. Earlier we were talking about "pre rigged truss" which are lengths of truss with the lights prehung on them. They have wheels attached and fit perfectly in a standard truck. As they are rolled off, they are unstacked, then flown a foot off the ground, the legs are taken off, the cable looms are secured in place, lights checked and they're ready to go.

If you want to see a model of efficiency, find a video of any touring concert being unloaded and set up. The trucks are docked in a specific order and tipped sequentially so everything goes up as elegantly as possible. Usually the get motors up first, then start rigging the truss, lighting, video and sound while the stage is being built up at the same time on the opposite side of the arena. Once the truss is flown, the stage is rolled into place under it.

This is one example and although you can't see a lot of detail, the process is evident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVKtFntxjoc

Again, most acts won't need this level of production but it's important to study the efficiency of the process to design your act/show to waste as little time as possible. It's yet another mark of a true professional.

Kevin's rig is a perfect example! It's a very large set up by most standards but he has it down to the most elegant way to set up and strike with the least number of people.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 12, 2019 06:37PM)
While this is true for road and touring acts, much of this also applies to local performing acts - how it packs, sets-up, breaksdown, loads, transports, paying assistants and crew, production, and so on. The contents of this thread are not only for road workers, but almost everything here can easily apply to local workers as well - including the initial decisions, choices, and dilemmas as it pertains to our businesses. Great discussions.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jun 13, 2019 02:33AM)
[quote]On Jun 12, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
While this is true for road and touring acts, much of this also applies to local performing acts - how it packs, sets-up, breaksdown, loads, transports, paying assistants and crew, production, and so on. The contents of this thread are not only for road workers, but almost everything here can easily apply to local workers as well - including the initial decisions, choices, and dilemmas as it pertains to our businesses. Great discussions. [/quote]

This is SO true. I always designed specific things for different markets as it always seemed to make sense to let the needs of each market dictate the material. A wonderful example that just came to mind was one of the guys that we worked with at Hollywood Magic was designing a new act with some very clever ideas. It used a lot of smaller material so it couldn't really work big rooms but was great for smaller venues like the Castle, Comedy Clubs, etc. The problem was that those clubs had a very specific budget and he had designed an act with a huge amount of consumables making his per show cost beyond what he could ever recoup with the budget of those venues. Larger rooms obviously had larger budgets which could have supported the act better but the scale of the act made working those rooms impractical. He had created a beautiful act without a market to play in! To be fair, there are some European markets that could still support a higher end small act (i.e. The Crazy Horse) but he couldn't survive long enough to polish the act to get to that point. I have always encouraged people to find an under served market and let the needs of the market define the act. There are many exceptions but if you want to work, this just makes sense to me.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Jun 14, 2019 07:21AM)
Definitely not in my arena, but I really like hearing all of the fine intricacies of what needs to be considered and planned for to increase the likelihood of one's ability to scale their business if they so desire.
Message: Posted by: Christian & Katalina (Jun 25, 2019 07:24PM)
As to the original Post of this thread:

When I was quite young a old performer told me,"To get work, you gotta be working." Over the years I have noted that the more I work the more work comes to me. So, yes there is a connection to working more means more money and success. There was an interview many years ago with Jerry Seinfeld post Seinfeld TV show. He hadn't worked in a couple of years and he was ready to get going again. He suddenly found out that nobody wanted to book him. A major TV star was suddenly old news. It took him a year or more to get back into the mind of the bookers. Of course, once he got back into it things went just fine, but the point was that even a major star can fall off the radar if they aren't working.

As to getting more $$$ per show is tricky thing. It has a great deal to do with what market you are in and where you are located in the country. A $2000 dollar check spends much different in Los Angeles than it does in Columbus Ohio. Many markets such as the College market have a ceiling. No matter how famous you are, you're not going to make $10,000 for a standard college show. (it can happen for special occasions but it is not standard by any means) It is usually easier to work more shows for good money than work less shows for amazing money.

I would also say that nothing beats a good touring route. There is tons of money to be made touring; however, it is very hard on the body. My wife and I toured for a decade and did very well. We now have a residency show at the Hilton Hotel. We have had it for 10 years. So, we have a very unique viewpoint. Which is better? Well, it depends on the person. I could answer but that answer only applies to me. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

Touring
The great thing about touring, (we had an agent) was all we had to do was get on the plane/van and go do a show. There were months where we were doing a show almost every day in a different city. As long as you can deliver a strong show and charm the people who hired you, you will keep working. It makes it very easy for your agent. You show up, delight your booker, be easy to work with, deliver a kick-ass show, thank everyone, and off to the next show. Simple and profitable. Downside: constant travel, different hotel every night, hard on your health, you're never home.

Residency Show
Its all on you. You must make everything happen from the ground up. Prepare to become a marketing expert, salesman, theater manager, you must understand internet marketing, you will learn about HTML, CSS, SEO, etc, You have to handle all the problems, Deal with nights where you have 10 people in the audience, understand local laws about theater shows, you will be working 18 hours a day in the beginning. Sound like fun? The upside is: Its your show and you can do whatever you want. People are paying to come to your show which makes for some great audiences that you will never see in a corporate setting, you control your destiny, you go home every night, its a blast.

When people ask me which is better, I tell them you pick your own poison. There is no such thing as the perfect setup or market. What I would tell you is that I would love to be working for lots of money, but when push comes to shove, I'd rather be working for less money than not working at all.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 25, 2019 08:05PM)
The thing that is true of EACH situation is it takes a LONG time with a great track record prior to being able to do EITHER option. It is not entry level positions in either case. This is the point that most miss. I bet it was a long time before you were booked every night on a tour. (I am not digging at you here, just saying that not all act are created equal. Yours obviously has staying power!)

This is the step that everyone seems to want to skip. The attitude of "I know the tricks, I must be as good" just permeates the magic community because this is what everyone is sold. They then believe it and it creates false expectations.

Thanks for the perspective!
Message: Posted by: Christian & Katalina (Jun 25, 2019 08:13PM)
Danny, Yes, I should be clear, none of this is possible if you haven't paid your dues. And by dues, I mean performed many, many, many shows. And . . . failing many times.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2019 01:02AM)
Oh the failing. I thought I was the only one!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 26, 2019 09:53AM)
So great to hear from Christian & Katalina. What is funny is when this thread first started they were who I immediately thought of relating to this topic as I remember them sharing here or on some forum or perhaps in a magazine feature when they were touring and were customizing their own big van (maybe a Sprinter or something?) to meet their needs personally and professionally for life as full-time entertainers on the road. It was very interesting.

Then, hearing about their "new venture" in Indy at the Hilton and seeing their shift to establishing their own show more locally and everything that entailed - finding the right venue, crafting the right deal, show time, ticket prices, marketing, promotion, and so on. Then, of course, to try to balance that with still being able to accept some decent paying corporate/private bookings strategically at the same time (the one time I was nearby and was hoping to stop in and surprise them they were dark, which I later found out was to do some corporate or private work.) So following their journey (as much as they've been willing to share) has been going on for maybe, what 15 years or so? So it is nice to hear from them in this thread, as I always enjoy when they can still pop in to Tricky Business.

The reason I think their story is so interesting is because it seems to stand for many young, current or experienced performers that have ongoing thoughts in their minds of "what if..." pertaining to their performing business, business model, business plan, strategy, approach, etc.

They have the first base covered pretty well which is having a professional performance polished and ready to go, so much of their efforts and decisions then lied in the business aspects of their "what if..."

They bring up some very interesting points in these posts about market ceilings which is something any professional must consider, as it can easily be different in each performance market as well as geographical market. Then their is also the learnign curve. Members here get a little pi**y when I talk about there being different levels of performers and that we must be completely honest with ourselves about where we are and what to be. Once this is done you can create a plan to attain your next level. Going from a part-time local performer, to a touring road performer has must less to do with your performance (you still better be ready, good, polished, and professional) and so much more to do with the business behind your performance. It is also much more than just deciding I want to work the road, it is getting the education you need, to gain the experience you seek, to get to the point you have decided to focus on.

Then, later the same for making their other decision to try to establish your own residency venue. It is truly amazing and C&K should be greatly applauded that they are still at the same venue they started at 10 years ago! That says a lot! Most would have a couple of false starts or improper-fit venues (venue support is one of those hidden factors that can affect your whole plan or operation) that cause you to have to go through several venues to find the right match before becoming established.

So it is great anytime they are willing to speak on this topic. Most here know I have been working on revising some of my past courses on the entertainment business. I was getting many requests to include information on 2/4 walling. In working on the addition of that chapter, I soon discovered this should be its own project, and decided to work on it incrementally as I could. I have interviewed dozens of Vegas headliners, and other regional performers, celebrities, and producers nationwide and even some outside the U.S. It has been difficult trying to do this while still working the road and touring myself 40+ weeks a year, but the one thing I always wanted to do was interview and include C&K and hope they share their story in more details for just this reason.

It's not always needing to hear what they did, but more so what they learned, their setbacks, mistakes, uninformed decisions, and failures (I've always been interested in these equally as much and what they learned and did to overcome these) along the way, and so much more.

Great hearing from you guys and thanks for dropping in on this post.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 26, 2019 10:47AM)
Yes thanks so much C&K!!! Lots of great thoughts in your post, and in mindpros reply.

In the magicians podcast, the interview with Chris Kenner he mentions how itís ďjust usĒ (the Copperfield team) as far as promoting the show at the MGM and while he doesnít go into details, he mentions the pressure in filling the seats.

Very interesting insight touring vs. residence show from C&K. Lots to think about.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jun 26, 2019 04:02PM)
Wow, great perspectives from C&K! This is such a great example of having a perfect balance of business and performance.

[quote]On Jun 25, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is not entry level positions in either case. This is the point that most miss.[/quote]

Danny, you nailed it yet again! Such an important concept. It seems that many try and copy the trappings of what they see other successful performers do without understanding why they do it. As I've said many times about producing shows... Just because you put eggs, flour, sugar, milk and butter in the oven, it doesn't mean a cake is going to come out!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2019 04:57PM)
Yea that is what has frustrated me SO much about this section is it became a get rich quick scheme almost. NOBODY seems to fail but me! Then you get the bs feel good nonsense from the success peddlers like "oh as long as you learn something you didn't fail". How stupid. Of course you did!

Then the ridiculous "look at me mom" stuff and the idiotic assumption that all acts are created equal. Oh lord is THAT a bad thing to tell people who want to learn to do this.

It takes more than feel good slogans and armchair quarterback ideas to actually make a go at performing. This is why I have said for years the success peddlers are just trying to sell dreams.

It takes a LONG time to even develop the act into something anyone wants to watch on tour or as a residence. When I sat my first show down in Key Largo a million years ago if I knew then what I knew now I would not have done it. I probably was not ready. I didn't have enough mileage on the show. (I had been in comedy clubs as a headliner with the show for almost a decade, and STILL wasn't ready to sit it down.) It was a different audience, and just a different feel. But I KNEW! I knew I could do it and I was absolutely wrong.

This is the frustrating part about "opinions". Yea everyone has one. But an opinion is absolutely the lowest form of human knowledge. You don't need any credentials to have one. Heck I have a LOT of opinions about medical stuff and kid shows. I know just as much about each of them and my opinion means NOTHING. When you have been doing nothing but farting into your couch cushion for the past 30 years and you never were a performer in the first place the "opinion" is just not valid. You can't extrapolate for experience. Experience is a terrible teacher. It gives the tests first and then the lessons.

I know young guys HATE to hear it but experience actually matters. It bites. The only way to have it is to have it. No way around it! But when the younger guys are given flat out wrong information about what this takes it does nothing to help them. When they are told how easy it is by the guru types it hurts them. It is almost unfair. They are preyed upon and it is sad.

There is a shorter way, but there are no short cuts. You have got to be out there DOING IT. There is just no substitute for this.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 26, 2019 07:03PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
But an opinion is absolutely the lowest form of human knowledge. You don't need any credentials to have one.

I know young guys HATE to hear it but experience actually matters. It bites. The only way to have it is to have it. No way around it! But when the younger guys are given flat out wrong information about what this takes it does nothing to help them. When they are told how easy it is by the guru types it hurts them. They are preyed upon and it is sad.

There is a shorter way, but there are no short cuts. You have got to be out there DOING IT. There is just no substitute for this. [/quote]



Man, such a great thread and topic. Just sit back and look who it has brought out - C&K, Kevin and Kristen, Ray Pierce, CharlieCheckers, etc. This thread shows how significant a forum TB is here on the Cafť. I always tell people that many legitimately working professionals are still here regularly but they simply do not participate until it is a real discussion based on facts and experience, where opinion is cast aside and those with actual knowledge and experience can feel free to participate without derailments, uninformed opinions, and agendas by the trolls or those with a dislike for other's experience and success, and can share openly and feel their efforts are appreciated. These are the discussions I have daily in my life and so many others could benefit from.

Recently several of the main trolls and instigators here have been removed and it is great to see this place getting back to what it can be and should be including threads like this.

In reference to what Danny said above about "opinions" and that you don't need any credentials or experience to have one, unfortunately, "magic" is the same way. Any kid can get a deck of magic cards or get a magic set and shazam! they are "a magician," and so starts the belief of being a performer. It is NOT what they want to hear, as Danny said, but it IS what they NEED to hear. Unfortunately, those that say it are often the heavy or bad guy.

Opinions are great on hypothetical or general interest questions - "Do you think I should wear a top hat and tails or a wild multi-colored vest?" While it is a poor or perhaps partial question in the first place, the real information would be in the followup question - "And why?" Why is where knowledge, facts, and experience and comes into play. So much on the Cafť never gets to anyone asking "the whys?"

It's why when people start asking about "whys" WITH A GENUINE INTEREST that things can begin to move into reality and an informative discussion that can allow one to find their answer and make their own choice based on such knowledge and factual information. This is where learning happens and growth and progress occur.

I agree the worst things are 1.) when guys are given opinion presented as fact, 2.) when they are given incorrect or wrong information, and 3.) when they are receiving information from someone NOT based on actual knowledge and experience.

Let's face it, those of us that have been around for a few decades or more, performing successfully today has changed and is much different. As I discuss with my students just a few decades ago it went like this...complete high school, the fork in the road was continued education or go right to work in the fields, factories, military or entry-level at a company (mail room, maintenance, etc.), find the girl/guy of your dreams and get married, buy a house in town or the suburbs, and hope that the company you worked for and were dedicated to would take care of you for life until retirement, that the girl/guy would produce your great family, and each month your house became one month close to being paid off. Oh, and that annual road trip vacation was in there too. Through hard work and dedication, promotions, advancements, this held you until retirement, grandkids, and the hopes of a healthy life. This was real life and the American way for the majority.

Performing was the same way. You put your act or show together, you spread word out in your local area and spent a few dollars on general advertisements, and your ad on the Yellow Pages, and you could pound out enough gig bookings to keep you satisfied whether you were part-time or full. You did parties, festivals, scouting events, schools, and basically anywhere looking for some type of entertainment. The term often used was "entertainment for all occasions." I have an original Beach Bys business card that says "Hawthorne, California - music for all occasions, lol.

Nowadays that has changed too. Try to do that now and you will perform maybe a handful of times a year. To do anything more than this you need to approach your performing as a business and with all related to business. it is why TB and the experience of others so willing to be shared can make this the of the best forums here for getting actual information, insight, and knowledge, based on facts and real work experience, from those that have done what you are hoping to do, willing to help you in achieving your goals. That is amazing. You won't find that in Google searches or youtube videos. They would provide wise insight on your expect topic and the related "whys" or more important "why nots."

This was not available back when many of us began doing this and makes it even more valuable today.

Experience can't be faked, and there is no substitute for knowledge and experience.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 26, 2019 07:17PM)
Iíve never liked the fail your way to success plan.:)

I agree that nothing takes the place of experience, but that doesnít mean you canít learn from others experiences. There are plenty of success recipes out there to follow.
Those who keep doing the same mistakes again and again are stupid. There is a better way to pay your dues. If you want to learn faster, then learn from others mistakes.
If you want to learn from your own mistakes you can do it but it will take lots of time from your life. I see many young people doing well that donít have years and years
of direct experience; they got there by avoiding mistakes, not making them. Learning to avoid mistakes will take you much further than experiencing them.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2019 07:32PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Iíve never liked the fail your way to success plan.:)

I agree that nothing takes the place of experience, but that doesnít mean you canít learn from others experiences. There are plenty of success recipes out there to follow.
Those who keep doing the same mistakes again and again are stupid. There is a better way to pay your dues. If you want to learn faster, then learn from others mistakes.
If you want to learn from your own mistakes you can do it but it will take lots of time from your life. I see many young people doing well that donít have years and years
of direct experience; they got there by avoiding mistakes, not making them. Learning to avoid mistakes will take you much further than experiencing them.

Tom [/quote]

This is certainly your opinion. Thank you for proving my point.

I just saw a guy on Facebook who said "fake it til you make it " is garbage and bad advice. FACE it til you make it is the why to go. Get up, work hard, fail and stand back up. Face it again and do a little better and fail again. Get back up.

Experience teaches. Having that experience teaches. Not watching others have that experience.

But you do you Tom.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2019 08:47PM)
Has anyone ever wanted to learn something and thought to yourself "gee let me find someone with absolutely NO experience in doing X. I want someone who has never actually done what I am seeking knowledge in. Or someone who has done a small fraction of what I am thinking 30 plus years ago."?

Of course not! Why does this seem logical in magic?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 26, 2019 09:19PM)
Danny, why would you follow someone with NO experience? Thatís not what Iím saying. You seem to be saying just go off on your own and fail to you succeed, that you need to fail.
Iím simply saying learn from others mistakes and donít repeat the same. Thatís how you get there sooner. Why waste a lifetime making mistakes that could have been avoided.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2019 09:38PM)
If you had a second worth of experience in what we are talking about you would know that you LEARN THINGS from failure that you can't learn by watching others fail.

But since you never have done anything remotely like this maybe your opinion isn't as valid as you think.

Yes you learn from others, that is the nature of our business. Again not having done this you have no clue. But you can't take short cuts Tom. You have to climb the ladder one rung at a time. No matter what the world's foremost authority has to say.

But by all means Tom please keep proving my point. It is a wonderful illustration of what I am talking about.

And yes Tom. You NEED to fail. Not knowing this shows your inexperience is all.

If your method worked Tom, don't you think we would be through all the mistakes by now? Don't you think that all of them would be made and we would have a fool proof formula that ANYONE could follow? It doesn't work that way Tom. Life only works that way in story books. You are not going to short cut success or avoid mistakes. You need to learn them the hard way Tom.

PLEASE stop derailing a perfectly good topic yet again. Just stop.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 26, 2019 09:46PM)
ďYou NEED to fail.Ē Really?

Ok if thatís your opinion.

And Iím certainly not saying people will never fail, but 'needs to'
I donít think so, not when it can be avoided. But thatís my opinion.

The reason we read books, ask questions, and listen to others is to avoid failing.
And here you are saying well we need to fail. Talk about bad advice.

Anyways nuff said.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2019 10:09PM)
God I hope that means you are done posting.

Fran Tarkenton wrote a book called "The Power of Failure". Not having to fail would be news to him and he has 127 successful companies.
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Failure-Succeeding-Age-Innovation/dp/1501272284

"NFL Hall of Fame quarterback Fran Tarkenton is a friend of failure. In the 1970s, he brought the Minnesota Vikings to the Superbowl three timesóand three times his team was crushed. The first two companies he founded both quickly folded. But by learning how to deal with defeat, Tarkenton discovered the key to success. Now 74 years old and CEO of Tarkenton Companies, Fran Tarkenton shares the most valuable lesson he learned as an athlete and entrepreneuróthat failure, devastating as it is, can be an incredible gift."

But I am sure as the world's foremost authority you know better.

MY GOD please stop posting.

YOU NEED TO fail so you learn how to deal with it, and accept it Tom. Pretending it never happens CRUSHES you when it does! You have to learn to deal with it in a proactive way. You need to learn how to move forward. You learn SO MUCH form failure Tom. WAY more than from success.

Yes Tom you NEED to fail to learn to succeed. Show me a famous entrepreneur who hasn't failed Tom. Show me a non famous successful one who hasn't failed. They are an anomaly.

PLEASE I beg you to stop posting. It makes you look so bad.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 26, 2019 10:40PM)
I donít think people would read ďThe Power of FailureĒ to learn how to fail.
And I can assure you Fran Tarkenton never planned on losing a game.
He also wrote a book called ďEvery Day is Game DayĒ where he talks about how important it is to play to win.
Failure happens and yes we do learn from it, but what we donít do is plan to fail.
We do everything we can to avoid it.

Ok, I will stop now.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2019 10:51PM)
Who said you have to plan to fail? Spoiler here Tom. It was only YOU.

Not one person here said you should plan TO fail. That is you making up nonsense in your own head.

I bet you juat can't help posting again even though you claim you will. It is yet another FAILURE you have in life Tom.

Successful people oboe failure is inevitable. You have not learned this very valuable lesson I'm sorry but at your age it us doubtful you will. Please don't stop others from learning. Quit derailing this.

But here is a hint for success Tom. The inability to learn or see where you are wrong is not an asset in success.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jun 27, 2019 02:37PM)
You have made SO many wonderful points, Danny. You don't learn the lesson by doing everything right. Every weird solution for a problem I've come up with that makes a show work, came from there first being a failure in the system. That's what pressure testing does... it exposes the problems and there is no better pressure testing than doing something on stage in front of a real audience. Rehearsals don't count, friends and family don't count. Now those are certainly necessary but it isn't pressure testing. A professional isn't someone who doesn't make mistakes, they are someone who has made MANY mistakes and created solutions for them.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jun 27, 2019 02:55PM)
If I may make what seems like a diversion, but it does apply -

My first real start in 'professional' (used with a heavy grain of salt in this instance, I was a newb) performance was fire performing. In fire performance, one of the quickest ways to differentiate someone who knows what they are doing is how they react when they light something on fire which is not supposed to be on fire.

Experienced people will know it's easy to put out. Very experienced people know how to put it out without breaking the rhythm and flow of the performance. One of my favorite pieces of feedback I got after a performance was when I accidentally lit a small part of my pants, and casually extinguished it in the flow of a move. Someone after said, "I really loved how casually you put yourself out when your pants caught. Super confident."

If someone has never failed, I don't trust their advice at all because they clearly haven't pushed any boundaries and I doubt they're really performing much. Live theater goes awry. Not every time, but often enough that you can definitely tell when someone actually knows what they're talking about because they have the tips that only bizarre failures can teach you.

I think the whole exchange above is wonky because the interpretation of, "try, fail, fix it, fail again" was off - That doesn't mean you're planning to fail. It means you have to understand you -will- fail sometimes, and those who learn from those mistakes and try again, better, are the ones who succeed.

The learning part - that's the key.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 27, 2019 05:36PM)
Yes we do need to understand that Ďaccidentsí happen to us all and those usually canít be avoided no matter what we do. But Ďfailureí should be seen as simply not being prepared in the first place, only then can we avoid making the same mistake again.

Just me I know, but I hate hearing people say you need to fail in order to pay your dues. Itís like we should welcome failure.:)

Nobody Ďneedsí to fail in order to learn a lesson, they Ďneedí to prepare and practice in order to avoid making that mistake. Fran Tarkenton NEVER said to his players, ďTeam we need to go out there today and lose this game so we can get us some of that experience.Ē No we practice and prepare beforehand in order to avoid mistakes.

And then, not everybody can learn from failure, they just repeat it. If failure was such a great teacher we would seek out the biggest losers to learn from. But we donít, we seek out the best in order to learn how not to fail.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 27, 2019 06:18PM)
You obviously can't learn. You are making up stuff none of us ever said in a desperate attempt just to be right.

Yes it is just you here Tom who thinks that because YOU HAVE NEVER DONE WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Heck you even failed at not posting any more like you said. You fail at that all the time. Your ego just won't let you stop.

Your platitudes don't work here Tom. Go run your little daycare and pretend you used to be in show business. Maybe your idea work there but not in this world. Pretending you never fail is not the same as bring successful. If you are not smart enough to learn from failure that is on you. And it explains a LOT about your posts.

Nobody here is buying your bs.

Failure is not always lack of being prepared. That is just guru bs. Much like everything you post.

Please stop now. Adults want to talk.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 27, 2019 06:29PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
You obviously can't learn. You are making up stuff none of us ever said in a desperate attempt just to be right.

Yes it is just you here Tom who thinks that because YOU HAVE NEVER DONE WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Heck you even failed at not posting any more like you said. You fail at that all the time. Your ego just won't let you stop.

Your platitudes don't work here Tom. Go run your little daycare and pretend you used to be in show business. Maybe your idea work there but not in this world. Pretending you never fail is not the same as bring successful. If you are not smart enough to learn from failure that is on you. And it explains a LOT about your posts.

Nobody here is buying your bs.

Failure is not always lack of being prepared. That is just guru bs. Much like everything you post.

Please stop now. Adults want to talk. [/quote]

Danny, have you always been this rude?

What causes you to be such a jerk?

Really, you need to get some help.

Danny, why do you hate me? Is it jealousy?

You are the only one on here that questions EVERYTHING I say.

Do I need to ask the mods to put a stop to your uncalled for behavior?

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 27, 2019 06:32PM)
Basically... you are never ready. If you think you are ready.... youíll fail. And then after you fail a few times youíll be ready. If you wait until youíre actually ready, youíll never do it. Ha.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 27, 2019 07:12PM)
Oh I agree we shouldnít be afraid to fail. And yes things happen.

But we do get to choose, we can swim upstream or downstream.

Choosing out direction and being prepared is the key.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 27, 2019 07:16PM)
Who said don't be prepared Tom? YOU ONLY! Who said we can choose to swim upstream? YOU DID! So stop making these stupid points as if someone else other than you said them.

NOBODY said be unprepared. NOBODY said anything you are implying that was said. You are using straw man arguments in a desperate attempt to be relevant. You have NEVER tried this and never done it so please stop posting like you said. YOU FAILED at it. So try harder and don't fail. Stop posting.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 27, 2019 10:46PM)
Danny, I havenít said that anybody said anything. And yes I said everything that I said. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Let me get right to the point Danny, you know absolutely nothing about me. You have no idea what I have done or what I havenít done. So please stop pretending that you do and just making crap up. Nobody wants to see your continuing insults thrown at me. I have no problem with you disagreeing with what I say, but I do have a problem in the way you are doing it. You need to stop Danny before you get into serious trouble, enough is enough, and that is not a threat it is a promise.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Christian & Katalina (Jun 27, 2019 10:48PM)
If you are pursuing excellence you will fail . . . it is inevitable. No matter how much you read, watch, or practice you will fail. There are too many factors involved. You then have two options, give up or get up. When you get up, you take inventory and you learn your lessons. This will be repeated many times. As time passes you will improve, make less mistakes, and get closer to your goal.

No one wants to fail, no one plans to fail, but failing is part of the process. Crushing failure is how we learn many lessons. Sometimes it will be the only way to learn a certain lesson. I have been asked many times what I would change looking back on my career. The problem with that question is, what they are really asking is, what mistakes would you have avoided. Now granted there are some mistakes that were really stupid ones, those you would go back and avoid. But many of our mistakes are ones you need to make in order to learn. To undo them would mean not getting the lesson.

Danny is absolutely correct in this. Failure is not only part of the process it is inevitable.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 27, 2019 11:09PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, I havenít said that anybody said anything. And yes I said everything that I said. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Let me get right to the point Danny, you know absolutely nothing about me. You have no idea what I have done or what I havenít done. So please stop pretending that you do and just making crap up. Nobody wants to see your continuing insults thrown at me. I have no problem with you disagreeing with what I say, but I do have a problem in the way you are doing it. You need to stop Danny before you get into serious trouble, enough is enough, and that is not a threat it is a promise.

Tom [/quote]

Oh stop the internet tough guy threaten promise stuff. It is funny.

You have no clue what we are talking about Tom. Everyone here but you gets it. As usual. So why do you insist on derailing the thread? You are NOT a performer. So you may have some 40 year old information that does not apply.

Stop already Tom. Please stop. My stuffed PM box seems to indicate people want you to stop derailing the thread. What have I done with the "way" I am doing it Tom? I am only pointing out that you have ZERO current experience in this and that is a generous estimate. You have missed the point of what we are saying. You have misrepresented what I have said and tried to claim I said things I never have.

I am sorry you can not keep up Tom. I am sorry you are not a performer. I am sorry you are not relevant in this discussion. But none of this is my fault. So instead of trying to insert yourself into a conversation in which you have little to nothing to contribute why not sit back and actually learn something? NOBODY is claiming that you should plan to fail. YOU made that up and assigned it to me as if I said it. Well I did not Tom. Not even close. You are the only one involved in this thread that seems to get that as a takeaway.

So either catch up and figure out what is being said or please just stop derailing the thread. It is really great information and you are not helping. You have said you were going to stop. But something inside you just won't let that happen. Is this my fault as well?

As for your silly question about hating you I don't. As an example of John Doe says something just crazy that makes NO sense at all in the real world and I mention how he is just plain wrong does this mean I hate John Doe? John would be well served to learn from what is being said instead of ALWAYS arguing and being just so desperate to be right he can't bring himself to admit he is wrong. As for jealous of you? HILARIOUS but if that is what gets you through the night then sure. I am jealous. LOL.

You keep accusing me of stalking you. Well Tom when I post in the thread BEFORE you it is hard to make such an accusation, yet you have many times. When you say something that is just flat out wrong it will be pointed out Tom. If you don't like that an obvious solution is perhaps to say fewer incorrect things. That will shut me up faster than you can imagine.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 27, 2019 11:20PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2019, Christian & Katalina wrote:
If you are pursuing excellence you will fail . . . it is inevitable. No matter how much you read, watch, or practice you will fail. There are too many factors involved. You then have two options, give up or get up. When you get up, you take inventory and you learn your lessons. This will be repeated many times. As time passes you will improve, make less mistakes, and get closer to your goal.

No one wants to fail, no one plans to fail, but failing is part of the process. Crushing failure is how we learn many lessons. Sometimes it will be the only way to learn a certain lesson. I have been asked many times what I would change looking back on my career. The problem with that question is, what they are really asking is, what mistakes would you have avoided. Now granted there are some mistakes that were really stupid ones, those you would go back and avoid. But many of our mistakes are ones you need to make in order to learn. To undo them would mean not getting the lesson.

Danny is absolutely correct in this. Failure is not only part of the process it is inevitable. [/quote]

And HERE is the point that the armchair crowd seems to miss. Avoiding the mistake will mean you avoid learning the lesson.

THIS is why I am SO passionate about this particular misrepresentation by the guru crowd. It HURTS people at the beginning of a career to be told the opposite of this very point.

Mistakes are how we learn. Being wrong is what teaches us to get to right. It is not about KNOWING, it is about LEARNING!

Learning how to deal with failure as part of any process of learning is essential and fundamental. It can not be done any other way. Sure you plan to do the best you can with the information you have at your disposal, but life is funny. The idea that you can avoid failure is just not true. And it is a HUGE problem in the magic community specifically. BUT it is not something you can learn or experience or know even from the couch. You have to be IN IT to know!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 28, 2019 12:03AM)
To take this a step further, I work with many in the magic community that are failing and yet haven't a clue! The only thing worse than trying to avoid or admit failing is not recognizing or acknowledging failure at all. Many think they are doing fine and miss it altogether or are simply too ignorant to admit it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 28, 2019 12:30AM)
The ability to see and admit and accept failure and do the postmortem and LEARN from that is quintessential is every successful person on the planet.

Avoiding it, disguising it from yourself, telling yourself that it is something it is not is just so bad for forward progress.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Jun 28, 2019 05:49AM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
This is the frustrating part about "opinions". Yea everyone has one. But an opinion is absolutely the lowest form of human knowledge. You don't need any credentials to have one. [/quote]

At first I thought this was a brilliant statement, but the fact is an opinion COULD BE based on a large amount of evidence and experience. Trouble is we donít know if someoneís opinion is valid unless we test it ourselves and go through the experience.

It is helpful to know the background of the person giving the opinion. I have come across some false teachers in my time in the magic community (and other businesses as well). Businessmen who claim they know the way to success and how to make lots of money, and yet later circumstances revealed they are broke. Thatís why choosing the right teacher, mentor, or guide is important. Credentials do matter.

But in the end, the best teacher is experience. Yes, take advice from people you trust, but always with the realization that each individualís experience will different.

My long time favorite quote on this subject:

ďExperience teaches slowly, and at the cost of many mistakesĒ
-Batman (advising Robin, the boy wonder)
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 28, 2019 07:41AM)
Yes everything written on this thread and the whole Cafť for that matter is just an Opinion. Thatís what we do here on the Magic Cafť, we share opinions, some may be good and some may be bad. What we shouldnít do is try and demand that all opinions shared here match our own opinion. Nothing wrong with saying I disagree and moving on.

Danny knows absolutely nothing about me; he has never read any of my books, never listened to a speech of mine, never sit in on one of my talks, never watched me do magic. All he knows about me is that at one time I did kidshows and owned a daycare center and from that he formed an opinion about me, and bashes me from his own ill informed opinion. The other 70 years of my life experiences means nothing to him. He Cannot Accept any Opinion That Does Not Agree With His Own. He just wonít allow it here.

Now to be clear, I completely agree that mistakes will happen and we can learn from it. But I donít agree with the statement that ďwe all NEED to fail.Ē You might say, In my book Failure is Not an Option.

Tom
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jun 28, 2019 08:56AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
The ability to see and admit and accept failure and do the postmortem and LEARN from that is quintessential is every successful person on the planet.
[/quote]

This is really it, isn't it?

All the quips and simplifications don't mean jack when it's go time.

And anyone claiming to have simple solutions to complicated issues is selling something. Their advice is not geared to help people, it's geared to get people to pay the guru.

Everyone will fail. People who think they can prepare their way past failure are setting themselves up for the worst possible failures - ones you don't even anticipate being possible.

Just today I saw a post by Eric Mead - someone I think we can all agree is both skilled and successful - talking about a trick of his just absolutely failing to the point he had to quietly put those props away and move on to the next piece. If anyone thinks Eric Mead hasn't prepared before he does a show, I suspect their wrong about a lot of other stuff too.

There are lessons one can only learn through the experience of failure. This is a fact. The only way preparation will make it so one avoids all mistakes is by 'preparing' forever and never actually performing.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 28, 2019 09:09AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
The ability to see and admit and accept failure and do the postmortem and LEARN from that is quintessential is every successful person on the planet.
[/quote]


Just today I saw a post by Eric Mead - someone I think we can all agree is both skilled and successful - talking about a trick of his just absolutely failing to the point he had to quietly put those props away and move on to the next piece. If anyone thinks Eric Mead hasn't prepared before he does a show, I suspect their wrong about a lot of other stuff too.

[/quote]

I saw that post and thought about this too, Eric didnít fail, he quickly took care of the mistake and moved on.
Iím sure he would be the first to tell you he didnít ĎNEEDí that to happen.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 28, 2019 10:10AM)
Tom it seems as if YOU are the one having trouble accepting others opinions.

Why do you back up everything you said with guessing what others are thinking?

You juat can't accept what we are saying and you juat keep contradicting it and wonder why people make fun of you.

Failure is not only an option it is inevitable in the real world. Maybe sitting on the couch and spouting platitudes involves less of it. In the real world where people don't burp rainbows and fart puppies it is not only an option, it is stranded equipment.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 28, 2019 10:16AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, Ken Northridge wrote:
[quote]On Jun 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
This is the frustrating part about "opinions". Yea everyone has one. But an opinion is absolutely the lowest form of human knowledge. You don't need any credentials to have one. [/quote]

At first I thought this was a brilliant statement, but the fact is an opinion COULD BE based on a large amount of evidence and experience. Trouble is we donít know if someoneís opinion is valid unless we test it ourselves and go through the experience.

It is helpful to know the background of the person giving the opinion. I have come across some false teachers in my time in the magic community (and other businesses as well). Businessmen who claim they know the way to success and how to make lots of money, and yet later circumstances revealed they are broke. Thatís why choosing the right teacher, mentor, or guide is important. Credentials do matter.

But in the end, the best teacher is experience. Yes, take advice from people you trust, but always with the realization that each individualís experience will different.

My long time favorite quote on this subject:

ďExperience teaches slowly, and at the cost of many mistakesĒ
-Batman (advising Robin, the boy wonder) [/quote]

All opinions are not equal is your point.

I have an opinion about the universe and what makes it work. I have never studied it though. So should my opinion be thought in school? Should anyone listen to it and make decisions based upon it?

I have a pool in my back yard. I can even swim. Does this mean I am Michael Phelps?

Yes everyone is entitled to an opinion but you are not entitled it being right. Experience matters and without it an opinion mighr as well be a fart in a hurricane.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 28, 2019 11:34AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Tom it seems as if YOU are the one having trouble accepting others opinions.

Why do you back up everything you said with guessing what others are thinking?

You juat can't accept what we are saying and you juat keep contradicting it and wonder why people make fun of you.

Failure is not only an option it is inevitable in the real world. Maybe sitting on the couch and spouting platitudes involves less of it. In the real world where people don't burp rainbows and fart puppies it is not only an option, it is stranded equipment. [/quote]

Nobody except YOU is making fun of me.

Danny, let me try one last time to get YOU to understand.

I have said many, many times that mistakes will happen and when it does we can learn from it. But I disagree that we ĎNEEDí it to happen.
Why canít you just admit that ďwe all NEED to failĒ was a bad choice of words? That YOU FAILED to make your point with that?
Please tell me right now, so I can stop posting why we all NEED to fail?

Do you really believe that in your next show you Ďneedí something to go wrong?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 28, 2019 01:01PM)
Funny how everyone here but you gets it. I do not have a more simple language with which to communicate. Sorry

As OTHERS have pointed out there are lessons you can ONLY LEARN through failure. That is the admission price.

If you want to exel at something failure is an essential part of learning. If you want to be mediocre then failure is what you claim. The mediocre are always at their best.

Agsin you really should stop like you promised.

And it is not just me Tom. Read the thread.

NOBODY is saying what you say I am.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 28, 2019 01:43PM)
Ok Danny. Iíll leave you with this:

Yes many of the guru type motivational speakers talk a lot about how we shouldnít let our failures get us down and that we should turn them into successes. But we shouldnít take that as if we should welcome failure in order to learn a lesson. True itís only in hindsight that we most likely can see how our failures lead to our successes. But youíre not guaranteed to be a success when you fail. More often than not, if you fail, you failed, period. And thatís where youíll stay. Very few will even try to turn a failure into a success; they discard it as a failure and move on to something completely different. Failure is not for everybody and itís certainly not needed for most. Success has a much greater influence on the brain than failure and just like Success Breeds Success Failure can do the same.

But donít take my word for it, do some research and see for yourself how many of the modern studies have shown that we learn more from success than failure. Quite the opposite of what many will tell you.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 28, 2019 01:49PM)
Thank you. Well, you have certainly spoken your piece and it has explained a lot. Yet it has little to do with quality or volume of shows for the working professional performer or the more shows vs. less shows at more money topic that was in progress.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 28, 2019 02:00PM)
My GOD I hope that means you are done posting.

Tom if you want to stay mediocre then go ahead. (At your age not much will change.)

Your complete inability to comprehend this very concept is what leads so many to stay at mediocre. If you never fail Tom, you never learn to deal with it. It is not unlike a child kept in a bubble who has no real strong immune system working for them. The body does not know how to deal with the sickness when it happens.

If you don't now how to deal with failure then when it happens it is paralyzing. It is what Ray is saying about pressure testing. Christian speaks of having to make the mistakes and learn lessons and to not make the mistake is to not learn.

YOU have NO CLUE what we are talking about because you have not done this. Certainly you are not doing it currently. You can get away with pretending you never fail when selling non FDA approved supplements in a pyramid scheme. Get off the couch and into the world of actual performance Tom and it is a different world. One you are woefully ill equipped to speak about. No amount of feel good speeches from gurus will help you in this world. You do not know what is happening.

Now PLEASE I hope you are done derailing this thread. Stop addressing me then complaining I am mean to you.