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Topic: My power-stack derived from Tamariz
Message: Posted by: Degio (Jun 16, 2019 02:18PM)
Dear memdeck experts, I need your help to track down who has already invented/used this stack.

In a nutshell:
- It's a power-stack, i.e. cards in position 27-52 are mates of the cards 1-26 ("mate" meaning "with same value and color")
- Cards 1-26 are a modified Tamariz sequence, where cards in position 19, 21, 23 and 25 have been changed to remove mates and balance suits; specifically now we have 19-10D, 21-7C, 23-AD and 25-JC

You may argue: why on earth are you using such a stack?
Well... for several reasons:
1) It took me an enormous effort, but I managed to memorize the first half of the Tamariz stack
2) Then I realized that completing the task could prove impossible for me and I started thinking at how I could get the second half almost "for free"
3) The calculation to recover the second half is really trivial: in terms of position, it's merely +26, in terms of card, it requires simply a swap hearts-diamonds and spades-clubs; the first half is truly memorized, so the association card-position is effortless and immediate
4) Having a power stack has several advantages, e.g. being ready to perform great routines of the "mates" theme
5) Also Si Stebbins is a power stack, but the sequence is easy to spot, while this is very hard to spot
6) In order to remove all mates from the first half of Tamariz, I had to change only 4 cards (Aronson has more mates) so I didn't have to start again memorizing too many cards; anybody starting from scratch could simply mix any set of 26 cards with no mates, memorize it and mirror cards 27-52 with all corresponding mates.

I am not excluding that, over time, I may succeed in memorizing also the second half: for me any sequence bears the same effort, but the advantages of a power-stack are significant and fully compensate the fact I am not able to perform Tamariz-specific memdeck tricks.

For simplicity let's call this stack DegioStack (how conceited of me!) but I am absolutely sure that somebody had the same idea before and I'm curious to find out sources of a similar stack: basically anybody who thought about memorizing a half power-stack.

Thanks for your help!

P.S. I really thank mlippo for encouraging me to work seriously on the Tamariz stack memorization and providing suggestions/exercises. I tried in the past and failed: I would have never succeeded (at 50%) without his support

:phoenixblue:
Message: Posted by: tom_stamm (Jun 16, 2019 03:59PM)
Hello Degio,

Would this be the correct sequence:

4c 2h 7d 3c 4h 6d as 5h 9s 2s qh 3d qc 8h 6s 5s 9h kc td jh 7c 8s ad tc jc kd
4s 2d 7h 3s 4d 6h ac 5d 9c 2c qd 3h qs 8d 6c 5c 9d ks th jd 7s 8c ah ts js kh

I haven't seen this stack in the past, but our database only has about 450 stacks. Remember the number of stack possible in a 52 card deck is 51! (51 factorial or 51 * 50 * 49 * ... * 3 * 2 *1 or 1.5511188e+66-ish).
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Jun 16, 2019 04:26PM)
Not bad.
The principle however is not new. Normally, there are 4 banks of 13 cards.
Here there are 2 banks of 26 cards.
Your stack can be sorted in the same "family" as the Tetradistic stack from Ackerman. (although not exactly the same)
Also the stacks of Woody Aragon and the latest stack from Tamariz show certain simularities.
Message: Posted by: Degio (Jun 16, 2019 04:32PM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2019, tom_stamm wrote:
Would this be the correct sequence:

4c 2h 7d 3c 4h 6d as 5h 9s 2s qh 3d qc 8h 6s 5s 9h kc td jh 7c 8s ad tc jc kd
4s 2d 7h 3s 4d 6h ac 5d 9c 2c qd 3h qs 8d 6c 5c 9d ks th jd 7s 8c ah ts js kh

I haven't seen this stack in the past, but our database only has about 450 stacks. Remember the number of stack possible in a 52 card deck is 51! (51 factorial or 51 * 50 * 49 * ... * 3 * 2 *1 or 1.5511188e+66-ish). [/quote]
Thanks! That's precisely the sequence.
I always thought that the number of combinations is 52 factorial.
Anyway an incredibly large number!
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Jun 16, 2019 04:34PM)
Dough Dyment can surely tell you more about stacks with "repeating banks".
It's a strange combination: half memorized deck - half algorithmic stack.
To calculate the POSITION of a card in the 27-52 half stack is a little time consuming.
Message: Posted by: Degio (Jun 16, 2019 04:45PM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2019, Waterloophai wrote:
Not bad.
[/quote]
Mr. Crauwels, I am honoured of your reply

[quote]The principle however is not new.
[/quote]
Of course. I never thought it was. But I searched and could not find stacks made with 2 banks of 26 cards, with one bank memorized. Stacks with "banks" tend to have a mathematical approach which makes some classic memdeck tricks really hard to perform.

[quote]Also the stacks of Woody Aragon and the latest stack from Tamariz show certain similarities. [/quote]
I'll try to find out more about those.
Thanks!
Message: Posted by: Degio (Jun 16, 2019 04:49PM)
[quote]To calculate the POSITION of a card in the 27-52 half stack is a little time consuming. [/quote]
This is how it works (for me):
1) As soon as I see a card of the memorized bank, I instinctively recognize it and recall its position (a number between 1 and 26)
2) Therefore a card in the 27-52 half stack is NOT recognized by my mind, so I swap the suit, recall the position and add 26
Yes I agree, the immediate association of a memdeck is better, but... I struggle to memorize a full deck!
Message: Posted by: tom_stamm (Jun 16, 2019 05:35PM)
52 factorial is the total number of combintions from 52 card deck. Remeber though, a stack retains its identity regardless where you cut it. The Degio stack is still the Degio stack if we cut it at the 10th card, 17th card, 25th card ... 51st card. We can eliminate those 51 combinations from the count.

There are 52! combinations of cards in a 52 card deck. There are 51! stacks in a 52 card deck. —- but your point is correct — its a really big number!

Congrats on your stack.
Message: Posted by: Degio (Jun 16, 2019 06:32PM)
Oh... gosh... I never thought about that!
Right, so ONLY 51! stacks.
Thanks for clarifying it.
Message: Posted by: Degio (Jun 16, 2019 06:38PM)
Actually... shouldn't be 52!-51, which is different from 51!
Otherwise you eliminate billions and billions of combinations, not just 51.
Message: Posted by: Degio (Jun 16, 2019 07:21PM)
Correcting myself: each stack has its own 51 alternative/equivalent configurations, so you are right.
We have to keep 1 and discard 51, i.e. divide by 52.
There are 51! stacks.
Message: Posted by: tom_stamm (Jun 16, 2019 11:28PM)
Lol —- still a really big number!
Message: Posted by: Degio (Jun 17, 2019 01:51AM)
Going back to the main subject: does anybody know which books contain Woody Aragon and Tamariz similar stacks?
I have Aragon's "A Book In English" and Tamariz "Mnemonica", but could not find anything related to power-stacks there (while there are stay-stacks).
Message: Posted by: JBSmith1978 (Jun 17, 2019 02:08AM)
On the way to Mnemonica is a similar orientation. Tamariz exploits that feature in various ways(in Mnemonica).
Woody in Memorandum adds an “old is new” twist to this, then really runs with it.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Jun 17, 2019 09:30AM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2019, Degio wrote:

P.S. I really thank mlippo for encouraging me to work seriously on the Tamariz stack memorization and providing suggestions/exercises. I tried in the past and failed: I would have never succeeded (at 50%) without his support

:phoenixblue: [/quote]

Degio,

I may have encouraged you, but who had to put the real effort is you! :-)
Anyway, yours is certainly a good idea!

Mark
Message: Posted by: langston3711 (Jun 19, 2019 08:10AM)
Denis Behr also has a couple really great effects using a power stack. He derives it very quickly from Mnemonica through a shuffle sequence which is different from yours or Juan Tamariz. I think it may be in Handcrafted Card Magic 2 or 3 but I know he goes over it in detail in his Magic on Tap dvd set.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Jun 19, 2019 11:15AM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2019, langston3711 wrote:
Denis Behr also has a couple really great effects using a power stack. He derives it very quickly from Mnemonica through a shuffle sequence which is different from yours or Juan Tamariz. I think it may be in Handcrafted Card Magic 2 or 3 but I know he goes over it in detail in his Magic on Tap dvd set. [/quote]

Yep!
Called Mating Season.
I've replaced the last phase cos I can't bottom deal.
One of my current favourites!!!

Mark
Message: Posted by: Degio (Jun 19, 2019 02:55PM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2019, langston3711 wrote:
Denis Behr also has a couple really great effects using a power stack. He derives it very quickly from Mnemonica through a shuffle sequence which is different from yours or Juan Tamariz. I think it may be in Handcrafted Card Magic 2 or 3 but I know he goes over it in detail in his Magic on Tap dvd set. [/quote]
Indeed Behr's "Mating Season" is a perfect example of what I referred to in my opening message, when I wrote "being ready to perform great routines of the mates theme".
Since 2 banks of 26 cards are hardly detectable anyway, I opted for a personal stack with that feature embedded (with no need to perform complex shuffles). Taking into account that I haven't memorized a full stack yet, I started... let's say... fresh, with a stack that somehow halved my effort.
Another option would have been to reverse the order of cards 27-52 and have a stay-stack, but I find easier to false shuffle cutting the deck (after a cut, the power-stack is still power-stack) than faro shuffle (after a faro, the stay-stack is still stay-stack).
Message: Posted by: langston3711 (Jun 19, 2019 04:17PM)
Yeah good points. Plus it's very simple to do an overhand run of 26 cards mid set if you want to go back and forth from power stack to stay stack for certain routines. Coincidence effects are killer. This is a good way to start before you have all 52 memorized.

Although, I would stress that you really should work on rote memorizing all of them and not rely on a calculation type crutch or have to take steps to get there. Once you get it down it's smooth sailing. Open index effects are some of the best things you can do with a mem deck but IMO you really have to have all 52 down, knowing them instantly.

Personally, I would never switch up from Mnemonica stack as I use different versions of the effect, Everything in Order, to close out tabled card sets. It's very hard to find a stronger closer with a straight deck. Although, I have considered creating my own stack as long as it has the same properties of branching off the faro wheel. I just haven't bothered to, yet.
Message: Posted by: Steve Malco (Jun 19, 2019 06:08PM)
Only a month ago I memorized a stack using mostly Mr. Harry Lorayne's memory system in approximately 12 hours. I worked out the wrinkles in a few days and it's my own stack.

I essentially took a new deck gave it a few faro-shuffles, a few riffle-shuffles, a cut and rearranged two cards and there it is.

No, it's not the most practical stack in terms of being as useful as the usually talked about stacks, but it's mine and I can perform things that has truly baffled folks.

Point being, you can most certainly memorize the stack and it doesn't have to be done by the brute force "rote" method.

I recommend getting your hands on Ageless Memory by Harry Lorayne, you'll be most interested in Chapters 13: Peg(s) O’ My Heart: Handling more challenging numbers as never before & 24: "Deal Me In: It pay$ to remember cards—plus the missing card stunt." and then also learn what a "Memory Palace" is and combine it with Mr. Lorayne's Phonetic Alphabet/Peg Words and you'll be amazed, I certainly was.
Message: Posted by: Alex Carantoña (Jul 22, 2019 08:39PM)
Patrick Redford deeply and thoroughly explores this ideas in Temporarily Out of Order, a favorite book at the Café. His friend Ben Blau has some great routines and thinking at his book Asymptotes. They are both very prone to mirror and stay stacking, and a careful read of their work will provide great ideas on disguising and developing your concept.