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Topic: Which Hand Method & Philosophy by Timon Krause - Mind FX
Message: Posted by: JamieD (Jun 26, 2019 05:54AM)
Michael told me about this a little while ago and it instantly peaked my interest. Then when I saw Timon perform this on Fool Us, I really wanted to know more. It is finally on pre-order so I instantly ordered and only 500 copies, makes it even more intriguing!

DETAILS
Limited to Only 500 Copies for Worldwide Sale

Note: The books are now in stock and will be launching at the MIND6 event on the 29th of June. The accessory packs will be released on or around the 10th of July.

ďThe single most convincing method for the which hand effect that you will ever learn!Ē - Michael Murray

ĎWhich Hand Method & Philosophyí is without a doubt one of the most highly anticipated book releases within the past few years and MindFX is very excited to announce that pre-orders are now being taken.

Now is your chance to learn the singular routine that has taken Timon across the globe for the past nine years. Not only did Timon use this routine to fool Pen and Teller, but it also secured Timon the title of the best European mentalist in 2016 and even helped Timon to reach the finals of ĎHollandís Got Talentí.

Now is your chance to learn the routine that Timon used to fool Penn and Teller on the hit TV show ĎFool Usí.

Inside this book, you will learn two incredible scripts and presentations that Timon uses on an almost daily basis. This is coupled with all of the variations, subtleties and additional ideas that Timon has finessed over a nine-year period. 

You will also learn Timonís entire script writing process and his thoughts on the philosophy of magic and mentalism and there is even a bonus Q&A routine that requires nothing more than a single coin!


This is as real as it gets, no gimmicks, no questions, you just know!


The Which Hand method presented within this book is the single most convincing method you can learn to determine in which of the spectatorís hands an object is hidden. This method does not rely on gimmicks or electronics of any kind, nor is a complex verbal process involved, making it incredibly versatile.

In fact, it would be perfectly possible to perform this method with both the performer and the participant being completely silent. Taking it one step further, you could perform this being completely silent and void of any clothing. On top of that, whatever object you decide to use is completely examinable.

Lastly, you do not need to be particularly close to the participant nor do you need to touch them. All that happens, in terms of a mechanical process, is that the participant hides an object and extends their hands, as is custom in most effects of this nature. Once this is done, using the Which Hand method, we are instantly able to know where the object is hidden.

While some may think that a method fulfilling all the above conditions cannot possibly be sure-fire, we can assure you that it absolutely is. Which Hand will work 100% of the time, provided you follow the exact process laid out here and fulfil the necessary conditions to ensure the method will do its work. Do that, and soon you will feel as confident with this as with any other method you may have used before, with the added benefit of complete liberation, both in terms of not needing any special aid and in terms of creating your own presentations around this devastatingly clean method.

Fool Us Performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=MoqQwMPB6uY

Timon talking about the project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFQCTFFG5Bw

https://www.mindfx.co.uk/collections/new-arrivals-1/products/which-hand-method-philosophy-bt-timon-krause-pre-order

Jamie Daws
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Jun 26, 2019 06:14AM)
Does this just simply rely on noticing the hand shape differential when something is being held in one ?
The reason I say that is from all the techniques it says it doesnít use it doesnít actually mention that very old method .
I hope it doesnít and thatís itís actually revolutionary and new , best wishes Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: swayne100 (Jun 26, 2019 08:08AM)
Does anyone know if this method requires a lot of memory work? I noticed the accessory pack comes with a custom training deck, so I'm assuming there is a lot of work involved?
Message: Posted by: John C (Jun 26, 2019 08:21AM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2019, swayne100 wrote:
Does anyone know if this method requires a lot of memory work? I noticed the accessory pack comes with a custom training deck, so I'm assuming there is a lot of work involved? [/quote]

Good question. Unless you perform it consistently could you lose it?
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jun 26, 2019 02:42PM)
Nobody buy this. I selfishly want as few people to learn this as possible so that I can be one of the few that knows it.
Message: Posted by: magicmind (Jun 26, 2019 03:37PM)
Ordered w/ accessory kit.
Message: Posted by: Dr Ross (Jun 26, 2019 06:19PM)
I loved this when I saw it performed on 'Fool Us'! I've ordered it and will be picking it up at the MIND6 convention!

- Ross
Message: Posted by: Nathan Alexander (Jun 26, 2019 06:49PM)
Can anyone answer: If this is usable casually, do you always have to have the written prediction, and if not (since the addon description mentions paper(s), plural which suggests outs) is it any less impressive? Or is it built on that climax?
Message: Posted by: Tony Venetico (Jun 26, 2019 07:21PM)
I ordered it - anything that comes with Michael Murray's recommendation gets added to my cart without a second thought. Haven't been let down yet by him!
Message: Posted by: MRAC (Jun 27, 2019 01:03AM)
Ordered w/ accessory kit. Timon is a great performer!
Message: Posted by: kieronthemighty (Jun 27, 2019 02:02AM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2019, Nathan Alexander wrote:
Can anyone answer: If this is usable casually, do you always have to have the written prediction, and if not (since the addon description mentions paper(s), plural which suggests outs) is it any less impressive? Or is it built on that climax? [/quote]

Yes it is you donít need the written prediction but it seriously adds to the routine itís more of a extra kicker.

Kind regards

Kieron
Message: Posted by: kieronthemighty (Jun 27, 2019 02:17AM)
I should first say I was lucky to meet Timon a few years ago on the circuit he showed and taught me the routine.

There la lot of thought gone in to the little details to truly make this a show piece.

I own a lot version of the which hand plot this is my favourite version.

I was fortunate to be able to work this for the last 3 years with practice you donít even need a coin you can do it with a imaginary one.

I like it it will take work but if you put In the effort your have a gem in your set.

Kind regards

Kieron
Message: Posted by: Hustler2014 (Jun 27, 2019 03:46AM)
I usually like to create my own patter to suit my own performing style, so I was just wondering whether we have to stick to the exact script/wording provided?
Message: Posted by: RodrigoGrando (Jun 27, 2019 03:48AM)
I've just bought my copy! Timon is an amazing performer!
Message: Posted by: kieronthemighty (Jun 27, 2019 04:19AM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2019, Hustler2014 wrote:
I usually like to create my own patter to suit my own performing style, so I was just wondering whether we have to stick to the exact script/wording provided? [/quote]

You can make this your own I have.


K
Message: Posted by: Pugwash (Jun 27, 2019 09:44AM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2019, Tony Venetico wrote:
I ordered it - anything that comes with Michael Murray's recommendation gets added to my cart without a second thought. Haven't been let down yet by him! [/quote]

+1
Message: Posted by: Hustler2014 (Jun 27, 2019 12:16PM)
Because this is gimmickless, can this be done blindfolded, like you can with Sixth Sense (or other gimmicked methods) for example?

I have a part in my card routine that I do blindfolded under the guise of 'psychological influence', and this would fit perfectly alongside that segment...
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jun 27, 2019 01:25PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2019, Hustler2014 wrote:
Because this is gimmickless, can this be done blindfolded, like you can with Sixth Sense (or other gimmicked methods) for example?

I have a part in my card routine that I do blindfolded under the guise of 'psychological influence', and this would fit perfectly alongside that segment... [/quote]

From the description and mulling various possible methods over in my mind, since this method is gimmickless and it also does not involve a verbal-based process, I'm guessing that this method is entirely visual based. As for what that visual-based method could be, in my mind this is as close to doing this for real as possible. So since I'm suspecting that the method requires you to see what is going on, I would say no. There's probably additional ideas which supplements the method and possibly helps you get out of a jam if the main method fails you.

This is entirely speculation but my guess is that you're going to need to be able to see. I think the way I'm going to practice this when I receive it is by using fl*x as my fallback. There's also certain things that I'm going to have to use fl*x as the method for which hand in order to control the final reveal of a routine that I really love doing.
Message: Posted by: MadisonH (Jun 27, 2019 02:09PM)
Just wanted to pop in to say a quick word. Iíll come back and give a more detailed review.

For now, if youíre interested in this effect and you want to do it for real without relying on any verbal or psychology based methods, then get this. It is solid and, with practice, 100% surefire.

I was most blown away by Timonís writing; it is very professional and scholarly while also expressing his personality which is incredibly difficult to do.

Madison
Message: Posted by: SMERSH (Jun 27, 2019 02:26PM)
Does Timons insights/ writing in the book apply to more than just the main effect.
ie. are there principles explored that are more widely applicable?
Thanks
Message: Posted by: Sethekk (Jun 28, 2019 07:47AM)
I understand thereís no gimmicks - does this mean the same routine can be performed using a borrowed coin?
Does anyone have insights in to how long this would take to master? It sounds fairly complicated if thereís a learning accessory
Message: Posted by: Hustler2014 (Jun 28, 2019 08:43AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, Sethekk wrote:
I understand thereís no gimmicks - does this mean the same routine can be performed using a borrowed coin? [/quote]

On the link in the first post it says whatever object you decide to use is completely examinable, so I'm assuming it could be borrowed?
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jun 28, 2019 08:49AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, Sethekk wrote:
I understand thereís no gimmicks - does this mean the same routine can be performed using a borrowed coin?
Does anyone have insights in to how long this would take to master? It sounds fairly complicated if thereís a learning accessory [/quote]

I'm pretty sure that the object can be anything suitable for hiding in ones hands (so you wouldn't want something super large because that's very obvious which hand the object is in).

I have speculated as to what the learning accessory is and if my speculation is not far off, it shouldn't be complicated because what that deck will act as is dozens upon dozens and more of practice without the need for an actual live spectator to practice on. So that deck is likely the equivalent of having a deck of spectators if you will, that you can randomize so that you can have a good amount of practice for gauging the variances in responses. I don't think its crucial but I foresee it reducing your practice down dramatically since you have essentially a deck of spectators to practice with at will (so think of that as being able to practice on dozens upon dozens of spectators in your own home or on the bus or what not whenever you wish and for however much you wish). So this helps for people that are not comfortable performing for a live audience using material they are not 100% confident in yet as well as help people cut down on practice overall (so helping you achieve that 100% confidence in a shorter amount of time).
Message: Posted by: magicmind (Jun 28, 2019 01:14PM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, Sethekk wrote:
I understand thereís no gimmicks - does this mean the same routine can be performed using a borrowed coin?
Does anyone have insights in to how long this would take to master? It sounds fairly complicated if thereís a learning accessory [/quote]

I'm pretty sure that the object can be anything suitable for hiding in ones hands (so you wouldn't want something super large because that's very obvious which hand the object is in).

I have speculated as to what the learning accessory is and if my speculation is not far off, it shouldn't be complicated because what that deck will act as is dozens upon dozens and more of practice without the need for an actual live spectator to practice on. So that deck is likely the equivalent of having a deck of spectators if you will, that you can randomize so that you can have a good amount of practice for gauging the variances in responses. I don't think its crucial but I foresee it reducing your practice down dramatically since you have essentially a deck of spectators to practice with at will (so think of that as being able to practice on dozens upon dozens of spectators in your own home or on the bus or what not whenever you wish and for however much you wish). So this helps for people that are not comfortable performing for a live audience using material they are not 100% confident in yet as well as help people cut down on practice overall (so helping you achieve that 100% confidence in a shorter amount of time). [/quote]

Thnks for sharing your thoughts. I purchased the whole thing. I had the same thought of the deck. I have V2 and a few other things on this in my library, but if you don't use it you lose it. Hopefully the deck will get me back on track quickly and maybe help me with the others.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jun 28, 2019 03:36PM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2019, magicmind wrote:

Thnks for sharing your thoughts. I purchased the whole thing. I had the same thought of the deck. I have V2 and a few other things on this in my library, but if you don't use it you lose it. Hopefully the deck will get me back on track quickly and maybe help me with the others. [/quote]

From the ad-copy, I think this might be one of those things where you learn it/know it and you basically can do it for life once you are confident with it. V2 and methods such as Tequila Hustler, those you do have to keep much of it in memory since they are script and sequence dependent (but the basic principle is very easy to remember, if you study the scripts though, the scripts for V2 and Tequila Hustler have been structured in a very specific way though both so that the subject can follow the directions to a T as well as help obfuscate the actual method at play).

Remember, the ad-copy says no gimmicks and no verbal procedures or any procedure really, this leads me to believe that this is likely something where you learn to gauge things quickly and accurately by something or things that happen naturally (so the secret would be that you know what you're looking for essentially, as well as how to maneuver when you may be unsure or possibly second guessing, so that you can recover from that without anybody noticing). These are just speculations, I'm awaiting my copy :D
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Jun 28, 2019 03:44PM)
I agree it must be visual , if you get someone to put an object in one hand sight unseen and then bring both hands forward .
You will notice certain things that will 90% of the time lead you to the correct hand imo .
You can on those other 10% use word play as an out from my experience.
This is my opinion your mileage may vary Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: Sethekk (Jun 28, 2019 07:59PM)
I've placed my order.

Im quite certain its visual and kinda hope it is. The training deck sounds like a great idea, I'm always worried about trying to perform tricks live for the first time and hopefully this will boost my confidence.
The performance is great and looking forward to reading.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Jun 29, 2019 12:54AM)
I wonder how different this is/what it adds to Prevaricator by Patrick Redford?

s
Message: Posted by: Hustler2014 (Jun 29, 2019 02:55AM)
Yes, surely the training deck is just going to be photos of various hand positions that you can work through and learn what each hand shape looks like holding an object, compared to the hand shapes not holding an object? If you stand infront of a mirror you can do this yourself, but the deck will make it easier to learn without needing someone in front of you.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Jun 29, 2019 04:19AM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, the Sponge wrote:
I wonder how different this is/what it adds to Prevaricator by Patrick Redford?

s [/quote]

Must be different. Prevaricator requires verbal direction. This is said to be able to be done silently.




[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Hustler2014 wrote:
Yes, surely the training deck is just going to be photos of various hand positions that you can work through and learn what each hand shape looks like holding an object, compared to the hand shapes not holding an object? If you stand infront of a mirror you can do this yourself, but the deck will make it easier to learn without needing someone in front of you. [/quote]

Seems unlikely to me.

Kieron actually said it could be done with an imaginary coin with practice.
Message: Posted by: Sethekk (Jun 29, 2019 08:52AM)
Imaginary coin ?! Thatís sounds amazing.
I was thinking the same as the post above, pictures of hands in different positions then when you turn the card over, it has a coin / no coin.
Message: Posted by: kieronthemighty (Jun 29, 2019 09:16AM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, the Sponge wrote:
I wonder how different this is/what it adds to Prevaricator by Patrick Redford?

s [/quote]

Must be different. Prevaricator requires verbal direction. This is said to be able to be done silently.


The anvance version can be done with out a coin but The main version uses the coin.

Once you are confident and practice you can lose the coin.

Hope that helps

Kind regards

Kieron

[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Hustler2014 wrote:
Yes, surely the training deck is just going to be photos of various hand positions that you can work through and learn what each hand shape looks like holding an object, compared to the hand shapes not holding an object? If you stand infront of a mirror you can do this yourself, but the deck will make it easier to learn without needing someone in front of you. [/quote]

Seems unlikely to me.

Kieron actually said it could be done with an imaginary coin with practice. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Jun 29, 2019 09:48AM)
Can be done in silence and with no coin ? Certainly sounds impossible and impressive but also impossible to prove you were right unless the spectator has to write things down etc Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: Hustler2014 (Jun 29, 2019 09:57AM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Sethekk wrote:
Imaginary coin ?! Thatís sounds amazing. [/quote]

I was thinking the opposite about the imaginary coin! How can you possibly prove anything if the person is just imagining the coin!

Guaranteed to get the smart Alec who will say you got it wrong, even when you actually get it correct. Unless it was literally one to one with nobody else around, I think you need something physical to prove the outcome, otherwise there's no theatre for spectators.
Message: Posted by: Hustler2014 (Jun 29, 2019 09:58AM)
Lol, beat me to it Gaz!
Message: Posted by: kieronthemighty (Jun 29, 2019 10:47AM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Hustler2014 wrote:
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Sethekk wrote:
Imaginary coin ?! Thatís sounds amazing. [/quote]

I was thinking the opposite about the imaginary coin! How can you possibly prove anything if the person is just imagining the coin!

Guaranteed to get the smart Alec who will say you got it wrong, even when you actually get it correct. Unless it was literally one to one with nobody else around, I think you need something physical to prove the outcome, otherwise there's no theatre for spectators. [/quote]

I guess it all comes down to crowd management trust and experience. The original way has the coin it a advanced version is a additional option.

Kind regards

Kieron
Message: Posted by: Sethekk (Jun 29, 2019 11:12AM)
Oh no I completely agree! Similar to why I like spectators to write the word they are thinking of down.
I more meant that the method can be performed with no coin sounds really impressive. Makes me more and more curious about how it works, I was nearly certain it was a visual thing.
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Jun 29, 2019 11:13AM)
Thanks for all the info on this thread Kieron , best wishes Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 29, 2019 03:40PM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Gaz Lawrence wrote:
Can be done in silence and with no coin ? Certainly sounds impossible and impressive but also impossible to prove you were right unless the spectator has to write things down etc Gaz 🙂 [/quote]


[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Hustler2014 wrote:
How can you possibly prove anything if the person is just imagining the coin!

Guaranteed to get the smart Alec who will say you got it wrong, even when you actually get it correct. Unless it was literally one to one with nobody else around, I think you need something physical to prove the outcome, otherwise there's no theatre for spectators. [/quote]

Just because some canít do something doesnít mean it canít be, or isnít already being done.
Message: Posted by: Patrick Redford (Jun 29, 2019 05:36PM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, the Sponge wrote:
I wonder how different this is/what it adds to Prevaricator by Patrick Redford?

s [/quote]

Must be different. Prevaricator requires verbal direction. This is said to be able to be done silently.
[/quote]

Just to note: Prevaricator also describes ways to do which hand and the main routine without asking any questions or using verbal subterfuge. It's a massive project and most of it usually overlooked with MANY contributors with wonderful methods and ideas. That said, I haven't yet had a chance to check out Timon's new work, but knowing him, I'm sure its wonderful and worth your time and study.
Message: Posted by: hektormagic (Jun 29, 2019 07:03PM)
I saw some comments about ďno physical coin and no questionsĒ.
There are few possible methods. I also have one routine which is in my booklet ďWhich PocketĒ. No questions needed and can be done with imaginary coin/energy ball.

But I believe this book by Timon is something great so I am eager to order it. His performance in P&T was fantastic and first I thought the chair behind him was involved but when he told me that there was no electronics in the method which he used in the show I was shocked... So his book now looks like treasure :)
Message: Posted by: John7 (Jun 29, 2019 10:08PM)
I presume it's not just the old Karl Fulves method?
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Jun 29, 2019 10:20PM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, John7 wrote:
I presume it's not just the old Karl Fulves method? [/quote]

Karl Fulves method is not at all 100%, even with practice. Only works with some people.
Message: Posted by: scott0819 (Jun 29, 2019 10:23PM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Patrick Redford wrote:

Just to note: Prevaricator also describes ways to do which hand and the main routine without asking any questions or using verbal subterfuge. It's a massive project and most of it usually overlooked with MANY contributors with wonderful methods and ideas. That said, I haven't yet had a chance to check out Timon's new work, but knowing him, I'm sure its wonderful and worth your time and study. [/quote]

I would just add that the PDF ebook that came with Prevaricator is an amazing resource not only for some incredible variations of the effect but for a thorough glossary of ďtellsĒ that participants can exhibit. For certain people, Iíve found them to be highly reliable. Totally overlooked.

Iím hoping Timonís work expands on the previous work by Patrick and others.
Message: Posted by: SleightlyCurious (Jul 2, 2019 11:18AM)
Will the accessory packs be available separately as they've now sold out?
Message: Posted by: rjs (Jul 2, 2019 06:55PM)
Yes, Michael Murray said that more accessory packs will be available in a few weeks.
Message: Posted by: Waters. (Jul 3, 2019 06:02AM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2019, rjs wrote:
Yes, Michael Murray said that more accessory packs will be available in a few weeks. [/quote]


Thanks. I was bummed that I was too slow for the accessory pack. Book ordered.
Message: Posted by: RodrigoGrando (Jul 3, 2019 06:04AM)
Has anyone received it yet?
Message: Posted by: Sethekk (Jul 3, 2019 07:42AM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, RodrigoGrando wrote:
Has anyone received it yet? [/quote]


Itís up for preorder at the moment so I donít think any have been shipped
Message: Posted by: Matt Pulsar (Jul 3, 2019 11:13AM)
Don't buy this book.

I have been using this method for a while it's fantastic, it's one of the best things I have ever learned to use for mentalism performance.
I hate that this book is coming out...
Of course, I have ordered it because it is now the only method I regularly use for my Which Hand routine and I very much look forward to reading Tim's full volume of notes on how he performs with it. You can watch the way I use it in the clip below. I have owned a few different things to aid in this type of act over the years, each of these other methods was at least double the price of this book and I now don't need any of them and some are broken anyhow.

Not having to ever use those devices again has been a fantastic liberation.

Don't buy this book.

Don't buy this book unless you want the satisfaction of feeling completely congruent with what you are doing and what you are saying you are doing in this type of routine.

https://youtu.be/WOE9Z1GZ9QI
Message: Posted by: Nathan Alexander (Jul 3, 2019 11:37AM)
Great piece, thanks for sharing. I'm so stumped, and I like that feeling.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Dural (Jul 3, 2019 11:41AM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, Nathan Alexander wrote:
Great piece, thanks for sharing. I'm so stumped, and I like that feeling. [/quote]

...like when you read the method for Compromised/breached ?
Message: Posted by: Nathan Alexander (Jul 3, 2019 11:59AM)
No, that feeling sucked.
Message: Posted by: JamieD (Jul 3, 2019 12:06PM)
Just heard back from Michael:

"400 orders and just short of 2700 emails to answer! BUT I am happy to say the following -

All UK book only orders shipped today as did the US book only orders. The Europe and the rest of the world book only orders have been wrapped and dropped off at the Postoffice and will leave the UK tomorrow. The orders for the accessory packs are all ready to go but just need the decks which should hopefully be landing next week (they were ordered on an express service)"

Jamie Daws
Message: Posted by: Sethekk (Jul 3, 2019 01:48PM)
Thanks for sharing that video Matt, makes me more exciting to start learning the method.
Would love to watch more of your work.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 3, 2019 02:05PM)
I tend to play to naughtier audiences than most

So if they do pocket the coin - will that ruin the act... or will I know

I tend to select women more often, in routines when I need to Ďtrustí the audience more
Message: Posted by: Pugwash (Jul 3, 2019 02:14PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, The Duster wrote:
So if they do pocket the coin - will that ruin the act... or will I know[/quote]

Good question! Presumably if one can tell which hand is holding the item, one can tell that neither hand is holding the item?
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 3, 2019 02:48PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, Pugwash wrote:
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, The Duster wrote:
So if they do pocket the coin - will that ruin the act... or will I know[/quote]

Good question! Presumably if one can tell which hand is holding the item, one can tell that neither hand is holding the item? [/quote]

Or one is confused
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Jul 3, 2019 02:52PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, Matt Pulsar wrote:
Don't buy this book.

I have been using this method for a while it's fantastic, it's one of the best things I have ever learned to use for mentalism performance.
I hate that this book is coming out...
Of course, I have ordered it because it is now the only method I regularly use for my Which Hand routine and I very much look forward to reading Tim's full volume of notes on how he performs with it. You can watch the way I use it in the clip below. I have owned a few different things to aid in this type of act over the years, each of these other methods was at least double the price of this book and I now don't need any of them and some are broken anyhow.

Not having to ever use those devices again has been a fantastic liberation.

Don't buy this book.

Don't buy this book unless you want the satisfaction of feeling completely congruent with what you are doing and what you are saying you are doing in this type of routine.

https://youtu.be/WOE9Z1GZ9QI [/quote]


Dang it. I had convinced myself that I didn't need this, now this review.... crap.
Message: Posted by: Consultthemind1 (Jul 3, 2019 04:04PM)
Is this the same version shown on P&T?

David.
Message: Posted by: Consultthemind1 (Jul 3, 2019 04:05PM)
Sorry! It is, I re-read the first page. Going to pick this up.

David.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 3, 2019 05:34PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, Consultthemind1 wrote:
Is this the same version shown on P&T?

David. [/quote]
Yes.
Message: Posted by: Matt Pulsar (Jul 3, 2019 08:17PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, The Duster wrote:
I tend to play to naughtier audiences than most

So if they do pocket the coin - will that ruin the act... or will I know

I tend to select women more often, in routines when I need to Ďtrustí the audience more [/quote]

I believe every single person that has ever been given an object to hide in their hand has had the thought of putting it in their back pocket. Knowing this, we have an extra moment of ďknowingĒíduring the routine. If you can routine it to speak to this you donít have to worry about not knowing. Learn to read your audience. I know...you still get jerks sometimes... thatís life. Watch my TEDxHKUST (stuart palm). You will see how to take advantage of this. Generally the reaction of the audience will tell you if they put it in their pocket. Also, women have the thought of putting it in their pocket also, but are slightly less likely to have a back pocket especially if youíre working evening formal type events.
Message: Posted by: George Hunter (Jul 5, 2019 08:04AM)
I ordered the book. Does anyone know when the accessory package will become available again?
Message: Posted by: bowers (Jul 5, 2019 12:28PM)
I also ordered the book today.
I'm a collector of the which hand method.
Todd
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 5, 2019 12:43PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, Matt Pulsar wrote:
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, The Duster wrote:
I tend to play to naughtier audiences than most

So if they do pocket the coin - will that ruin the act... or will I know

I tend to select women more often, in routines when I need to Ďtrustí the audience more [/quote]

I believe every single person that has ever been given an object to hide in their hand has had the thought of putting it in their back pocket. Knowing this, we have an extra moment of ďknowingĒíduring the routine. If you can routine it to speak to this you donít have to worry about not knowing. Learn to read your audience. I know...you still get jerks sometimes... thatís life. Watch my TEDxHKUST (stuart palm). You will see how to take advantage of this. Generally the reaction of the audience will tell you if they put it in their pocket. Also, women have the thought of putting it in their pocket also, but are slightly less likely to have a back pocket especially if youíre working evening formal type events. [/quote]

Thereís also a great subtlety in Tequila Hustler iirc that addresses the pocketing of the coin/object concern. Itís a preemptive subtlety which works incredibly well.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 6, 2019 10:19PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, Matt Pulsar wrote:
Don't buy this book.

I have been using this method for a while it's fantastic, it's one of the best things I have ever learned to use for mentalism performance.
I hate that this book is coming out...
Of course, I have ordered it because it is now the only method I regularly use for my Which Hand routine and I very much look forward to reading Tim's full volume of notes on how he performs with it. You can watch the way I use it in the clip below. I have owned a few different things to aid in this type of act over the years, each of these other methods was at least double the price of this book and I now don't need any of them and some are broken anyhow.

Not having to ever use those devices again has been a fantastic liberation.

Don't buy this book.

Don't buy this book unless you want the satisfaction of feeling completely congruent with what you are doing and what you are saying you are doing in this type of routine.

https://youtu.be/WOE9Z1GZ9QI [/quote]

Sorry, I bought the book.

Fantastic performance.
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 7, 2019 04:55AM)
Apologies for the late reply gents, it has been super busy this end since the MINDS conference last week. I am happy to say that all orders for the book only placed through until Friday evening have all been posted. All orders for the book and accessory pack have been labeled up and I am just waiting for the decks to arrive (which are expected to land on Wednesday of this coming week). The moment the decks land I will begin shipping them out.

For those who missed out on getting the accessory packs please do not worry, I have ordered when I realised the interest in them was so high and expect them to land in stock in a couple of weeks time. The moment these land I will email everyone who ordered the book only with the link to buy the accessory kit should they wish to do so.

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 7, 2019 04:58AM)
I should also add that inside the book Timon does address the participant playing the coin in the pocket too ;)

I have also finally got on top of the 2700 emails (no joke) that came in over the past week so should anyone have any questions on this book or their order, please donít hesitate to ask, I am here to help ;)

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: elimagic (Jul 8, 2019 09:03AM)
So I just placed my order. Any idea on when it will ship as it still says "preorder" currently.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 8, 2019 10:45AM)
Written by Timon Krause, produced by Michael Murray and printed by Haresign press. Does it need more of a review than that?

Mark
Message: Posted by: rasp (Jul 9, 2019 11:02AM)
Mark_Chandaue, ......... and proofread and edited by 'Rasp'................ Shame on you, Mr Chandaue ;)
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 9, 2019 04:41PM)
Copy number 407 received today and first off: the included letter to crediting letter was phenomenally written. The first page was incredibly thoughtful and it has only gotten better when I read the welcome section. I can tell that this book is going to blow me away by the prose alone.
Message: Posted by: drjohn (Jul 10, 2019 03:36AM)
Yeah I canít wait to receive mine....Michael is a git because he got me all hyped on messenger lol
His exact words ĎOnce you have become profficient with this you will never need the m****t detector again 😉í
Michael does not make bold statements like that unless itís top notch!!!
Message: Posted by: bond19 (Jul 10, 2019 03:58AM)
Mine arrived too. Hatís off to Haresign press. The design is top notch (for me nothing can top the cover to Atlas Brookings Rouge Manual to Deception)

The writing style is clear, concise and witty (when appropriate). Iím only a few pages in, but Iím already smirking at what lies ahead. I can see this becoming the go-to method for which hand in many circumstances.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 10, 2019 04:16AM)
[quote]On Jul 10, 2019, drjohn wrote:
Yeah I canít wait to receive mine....Michael is a git because he got me all hyped on messenger lol
His exact words ĎOnce you have become profficient with this you will never need the m****t detector again 😉í
Michael does not make bold statements like that unless itís top notch!!! [/quote]

I agree with Michael. The method is brilliant and a real ďduhĒ moment when you first read it but having futzed around with which hand for years now (I first did this using a marketed effect where your ear did the work ;) ), even though reading Timonís method is a real ďduhĒ moment, without Timon explaining all the nuances that he has acquired throughout the years it would not be workable with such reliability.

After chewing on this all night, I honestly believe that this method will eventually replace fl*x for me as even with what I have been using that for (controlling the ďoutcomeĒ), Timonís method actually also allows me to do this. I have only read the method portion of the book and canít wait to dig into the scripting for his actual routines!
Message: Posted by: Waters. (Jul 11, 2019 10:36PM)
... tore the box open and read the first few sections. I could not wait try it. I was 80-90% on my first live practice set (with my son). I must have tried to guess 11 or 12 times and missed twice (which were totally my fault). I am so happy right now. I canít wait to work through the book and practice some more. Thank you Timon.
Message: Posted by: Nathan Alexander (Jul 11, 2019 11:18PM)
So this is also good for casual strolling then? It seemed a stage piece with the final prediction. Please tell me no so I'm not looking for reasons to click buy (if you still can).
Message: Posted by: videoman (Jul 11, 2019 11:25PM)
Expected to receive Phasma first as I placed my order for that before this one, but I received this book from Mind FX today.
Unfortunately have not had a chance to look through it yet but hopefully this weekend.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 12, 2019 04:31AM)
[quote]On Jul 11, 2019, Nathan Alexander wrote:
So this is also good for casual strolling then? It seemed a stage piece with the final prediction. Please tell me no so I'm not looking for reasons to click buy (if you still can). [/quote]

The routine that he did for P&T is just that, a full routine using the Which Hand method. The prediction portion is in and of itself a method for the prediction itself, not Which Hand. You can use his Which Hand method for any which hand routine you wish to use it in as the method is just that, allowing you to guess which hand a object is being held in My the spectator. Itís not a convoluted method. Itís completely impromptu. Youíre doing it for real as there is no mechanical manipulation involved nor is there any verbal manipulation involved. The book goes into great detail about scripting and things like motivation for the moments you are gleaning the information you need to know which hand the object is in. This is to camouflage the method (not that the method is obvious, itís sort of like a psychological misdirection since one of the key to any great piece of magic includes being able to cancel out methods your audience may come up with on their own let that be them guessing the actual method or any method regardless of how ridiculous it may be, a presumed method makes a effect remembered more as a puzzle in the end rather than a point of pure astonishment, in this instance however in the main routine Timon gives you his full script for, heís giving you his full script where the plot is influence so you are intentionally leading the audience down the wrong solution path for both theatrical purposes as well as psychological misdirection away from the actual method). The method itself is essentially invisible and lacking any real process so this is as clean as it gets. You can use it to perform Timonís routine from P&T (hopefully you would tweak it enough to make it your own rather than just copying it verbatim) or you can use it to perform things similar to Colinís work on which hand.

This essentially replaces fl*x for me as a method for which hand. This also replaces tequila hustler for me as well as this is cleaner and much easier for the audience to follow along. Iíve tried Timonís method out a few times now after learning it from the book and itís quite easy as long as you follow Timonís best practices advice. Itís so easy to learn and practice in fact (if you apply his best practice advice) that Iím actually glad I didnít buy the accessory pack because I donít think itís really necessary. I do however know that some people like to practice something on their own until they are fully capable confident with the material before ever trying it out on actual live people so for them, I can understand and see how the accessory pack would provide excellent value (mainly the deck of practice cards).
Message: Posted by: Nathan Alexander (Jul 12, 2019 07:46AM)
[quote]On Jul 12, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Jul 11, 2019, Nathan Alexander wrote:
So this is also good for casual strolling then? It seemed a stage piece with the final prediction. Please tell me no so I'm not looking for reasons to click buy (if you still can). [/quote]

The routine that he did for P&T is just that, a full routine using the Which Hand method. The prediction portion is in and of itself a method for the prediction itself, not Which Hand. You can use his Which Hand method for any which hand routine you wish to use it in as the method is just that, allowing you to guess which hand a object is being held in My the spectator. Itís not a convoluted method. Itís completely impromptu. Youíre doing it for real as there is no mechanical manipulation involved nor is there any verbal manipulation involved. The book goes into great detail about scripting and things like motivation for the moments you are gleaning the information you need to know which hand the object is in. This is to camouflage the method (not that the method is obvious, itís sort of like a psychological misdirection since one of the key to any great piece of magic includes being able to cancel out methods your audience may come up with on their own let that be them guessing the actual method or any method regardless of how ridiculous it may be, a presumed method makes a effect remembered more as a puzzle in the end rather than a point of pure astonishment, in this instance however in the main routine Timon gives you his full script for, heís giving you his full script where the plot is influence so you are intentionally leading the audience down the wrong solution path for both theatrical purposes as well as psychological misdirection away from the actual method). The method itself is essentially invisible and lacking any real process so this is as clean as it gets. You can use it to perform Timonís routine from P&T (hopefully you would tweak it enough to make it your own rather than just copying it verbatim) or you can use it to perform things similar to Colinís work on which hand.

This essentially replaces fl*x for me as a method for which hand. This also replaces tequila hustler for me as well as this is cleaner and much easier for the audience to follow along. Iíve tried Timonís method out a few times now after learning it from the book and itís quite easy as long as you follow Timonís best practices advice. Itís so easy to learn and practice in fact (if you apply his best practice advice) that Iím actually glad I didnít buy the accessory pack because I donít think itís really necessary. I do however know that some people like to practice something on their own until they are fully capable confident with the material before ever trying it out on actual live people so for them, I can understand and see how the accessory pack would provide excellent value (mainly the deck of practice cards). [/quote]

That is a wonderfully thorough, and well-rounded response. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Having said that, it also might push me over the edge to buy, which one could argue is your fault. (Could I get your address for an invoice?)

Thanks for taking the time to address all that, nice. (Put the wallet away Nathan, you already have Phasma coming, just put it back...)
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 12, 2019 08:20AM)
[quote]On Jul 12, 2019, Nathan Alexander wrote:
That is a wonderfully thorough, and well-rounded response. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Having said that, it also might push me over the edge to buy, which one could argue is your fault. (Could I get your address for an invoice?)

Thanks for taking the time to address all that, nice. (Put the wallet away Nathan, you already have Phasma coming, just put it back...) [/quote]

Ha ha ha ha ha. My disclaimer is that I refute any claim to your actions in regards to what you buy with your money. LoL.

I also have Phasma coming. Based on what I've read on the Phasma FB group posts, I kind of have an idea as to what this technique is supposed to do and I am incredibly excited to get this! I have a hunch (could be completely wrong) that Phasma may be in the rungs where I put Peter Turner's piggy principle that is taught in DiD2 for versatility and vast applications.

Back to Which Hand though, this really is superb and I love the writing. The footnotes have so many little jokes and anecdotes. Timor even includes call backs to jokes/comments he has made earlier in the book. What a great release. There are some typos which my OCD nature caught and was slightly annoyed by as well as this big typo where one section is 1.3 and the next section is 1.6... so where is 1.4 and 1.5?!? LoL. That's just me nitpicking though. Don't worry, it's not missing content, that was clearly a typo that wasn't caught prior to publication.
Message: Posted by: Winnes (Jul 12, 2019 11:00AM)
Cant wait for mine to arrive - has anyone received theirs with the bonuses?
Message: Posted by: Nathan Alexander (Jul 12, 2019 11:08AM)
I can see using this in conjunction with a few routines from Architect of the Mind. Might be a nice little multi-phase routine.
Message: Posted by: Pugwash (Jul 12, 2019 11:53AM)
[quote]On Jul 12, 2019, Winnes wrote:
Cant wait for mine to arrive - has anyone received theirs with the bonuses? [/quote]
Not yet 🤞🏼
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Jul 12, 2019 04:03PM)
Was ready to pull the trigger, aaaannnnddd it's sold out.

Was that it? All 500 sold?
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 12, 2019 05:21PM)
[quote]On Jul 12, 2019, Last Laugh wrote:
Was ready to pull the trigger, aaaannnnddd it's sold out.

Was that it? All 500 sold? [/quote]

I guess so, LoL. Iím #407. Iím selfishly glad itís sold out. Less people will know the method!
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 12, 2019 06:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 12, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Jul 12, 2019, Last Laugh wrote:
Was ready to pull the trigger, aaaannnnddd it's sold out.

Was that it? All 500 sold? [/quote]

I guess so, LoL. Iím #407. Iím selfishly glad itís sold out. Less people will know the method! [/quote]

Sadly I expect the truth will be... the pirates will sell more than they normally would
Message: Posted by: Sethekk (Jul 13, 2019 05:50AM)
Still waiting for mine to arrive, was hoping to get it this week :(

I brought with the accessory pack - any updates on if these have been shipped?
Message: Posted by: Winnes (Jul 13, 2019 08:29AM)
Same here - nothing today so I'm guessing the accessory pack orders haven't gone yet. I'm sure they are worth waiting for though!
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 13, 2019 11:10AM)
Hi Gents, apologies once again for the lack of replies on here, the past few weeks have been the busiest I have ever been with orders and emails and so it has been all hands on deck to keep things running as smoothly as possible. As mentioned earlier all orders for the book only were dispatched and should be dropping through the letterboxes soon if they havenít landed already.

The decks themselves were scheduled to land on Wednesday of last week to fulfil the orders that were placed for the book and accessory packs. Sadly they didnít land as expected and so I spend the tail end of last week making phone calls between wrapping, emailing and posting to find out what was happening with them. Thankfully I was provided with the answers I needed and the printing company had decided for some reason to switch the company they ship with to UPS.

UPS had been holding onto the decks pending payment of customs charges that I wasnít made aware of but thankfully these were all paid up and the decks were released and they have told me that they will de delivered on Monday. Since everything else is ready I will be adding the decks to the boxes and shipping the orders the moment the decks land so all will be shipped on Monday or Tuesday very latest depending on the time the cards are dropped off.

Once the decks land I will open up the additional sales of the accessory packs for those that missed out originally. For those still wanting the book I still have a small reserve amount that are being held onto until all previous orders have been delivered. When this happens I will release the rest on a first come first serve basis and you can pre-register your interest by filing out the email form on the product page.

For those that have the book and those that are yet to receive them, there is an additional small bonus which will be emailed over once the books have all been posted!

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 13, 2019 06:15PM)
My book just arrived, very exciting.
Message: Posted by: streifi (Jul 15, 2019 10:46AM)
I missed the preorder... Anybody willing to sell the book to me?

Maybe somebody has read the book and is willing to sell...

It would really mean a lot to me!
Message: Posted by: Matt Pulsar (Jul 15, 2019 11:38AM)
I've received it. It's fantastic. I have been successfully performing this for a while now, and I was only using roughly one fourth of the method because I didn't know all his work on it. Now I'm sure fire. I think this is stronger and more reliable than anything with batteries. I haven't even gotten to the routines yet, just the nuts and bolts. But, I see they all sold which I'm impressed by, sorry if you missed it. I truly hope this stays within its publication and doesn't end up in the pirate sites or torrents. But if you ever see it second hand don't hesitate, it's a great.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 15, 2019 11:41AM)
Is there a facebook group for this?
Message: Posted by: Andrew Sway (Jul 15, 2019 03:01PM)
Still waiting for the shipping of the book incl. Accessory pack :(
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 15, 2019 04:59PM)
I am happy to report that the decks landed today and I managed to get 100 book and accessory packs posted and the remainder are sitting by the office door and will be dropped off at the post office first thing tomorrow morning ;)

Pending the delivery of more papers I will then re-open sales of just the accessory packs for those that missed out the first time around.

And now, it is time for me to sleep and gather my energy for a super busy day again tomorrow!

Many thanks for the patience with this, I must admit that I expect the books to sell out in about four weeks not ten days ;)

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: Pugwash (Jul 16, 2019 12:49AM)
Well done Michael.
Many thanks for all your efforts in meeting this demand. They are very much appreciated.
Message: Posted by: videoman (Jul 16, 2019 01:37AM)
I missed out on the accessory pack so will definitely be picking it up separately once available.
Message: Posted by: Michael.Kegel (Jul 16, 2019 01:50AM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2019, celebrity wrote:
I am happy to report that the decks landed today and I managed to get 100 book and accessory packs posted and the remainder are sitting by the office door and will be dropped off at the post office first thing tomorrow morning ;)

Pending the delivery of more papers I will then re-open sales of just the accessory packs for those that missed out the first time around.

And now, it is time for me to sleep and gather my energy for a super busy day again tomorrow!

Many thanks for the patience with this, I must admit that I expect the books to sell out in about four weeks not ten days ;)

Best Wishes Michael [/quote]

Hi Michael

This book sounds so intriguing. Unlucky me noticed too late that this was up for sale, unfortunately. What do you reckon, when will it be available again through mindfx.co.uk?

Looking forward to reading from you and thanks in advance for taking your time to curb my impatience :)

All the best from Germany
Michael
Message: Posted by: Sethekk (Jul 16, 2019 07:22AM)
Thank you for the continued updates and all your work.
Looking forward to this later in the week !
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 16, 2019 07:34AM)
Always a pleasure ;)

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 16, 2019 09:04AM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2019, celebrity wrote:
I am happy to report that the decks landed today and I managed to get 100 book and accessory packs posted and the remainder are sitting by the office door and will be dropped off at the post office first thing tomorrow morning ;)

Pending the delivery of more papers I will then re-open sales of just the accessory packs for those that missed out the first time around.

And now, it is time for me to sleep and gather my energy for a super busy day again tomorrow!

Many thanks for the patience with this, I must admit that I expect the books to sell out in about four weeks not ten days ;)

Best Wishes Michael [/quote]

Hi Michael

This book sounds so intriguing. Unlucky me noticed too late that this was up for sale, unfortunately. What do you reckon, when will it be available again through mindfx.co.uk?

Looking forward to reading from you and thanks in advance for taking your time to curb my impatience :)

All the best from Germany
Michael [/quote]

It's limited to 500 copies total and they sold out of all the books in 10 days. What Michael is re-opening up orders for is the accessory packs only, no book (books again have been sold out).
Message: Posted by: Michael.Kegel (Jul 16, 2019 09:25AM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2019, celebrity wrote:
I am happy to report that the decks landed today and I managed to get 100 book and accessory packs posted and the remainder are sitting by the office door and will be dropped off at the post office first thing tomorrow morning ;)

Pending the delivery of more papers I will then re-open sales of just the accessory packs for those that missed out the first time around.

And now, it is time for me to sleep and gather my energy for a super busy day again tomorrow!

Many thanks for the patience with this, I must admit that I expect the books to sell out in about four weeks not ten days ;)

PS: how about a download copy if printing is a financial issue ...

Best Wishes Michael [/quote]

Hi Michael

This book sounds so intriguing. Unlucky me noticed too late that this was up for sale, unfortunately. What do you reckon, when will it be available again through mindfx.co.uk?

Looking forward to reading from you and thanks in advance for taking your time to curb my impatience :)

All the best from Germany
Michael [/quote]

It's limited to 500 copies total and they sold out of all the books in 10 days. What Michael is re-opening up orders for is the accessory packs only, no book (books again have been sold out). [/quote]

Cheers for that response.

So there won't be any re-prints? 500 copies and that's it, though they did sell out within no more than 10 days? Sounds odd to me.

I'm well-prepared to buy a copy for myself right away, and I'm sure there will be more interested who weren't lucky as far as the 500 copies are concerned.

So, is this sell out definite and final, and there won't be any re-print? Anyone able to clear that up? Many thanks in advance.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 16, 2019 09:32AM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Cheers for that response.

So there won't be any re-prints? 500 copies and that's it, though they did sell out within no more than 10 days? Sounds odd to me.

I'm well-prepared to buy a copy for myself right away, and I'm sure there will be more interested who weren't lucky as far as the 500 copies are concerned.

So, is this sell out definite and final, and there won't be any re-print? Anyone able to clear that up? Many thanks in advance. [/quote]

If they reprinted it then it would be contradicting the fact that this was a LIMITED run publication then wouldn't it? If you were selling a product and you advertise that product to being LIMITED to a certain quantity worldwide, you would effectively be lying if you then go do a reprint would you not? That would automatically hurt your reputation as a company would it not?
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 16, 2019 10:19AM)
The book is limited to only 500 copies all individually hand signed and numbered by Timon and whilst it is unavailable at the moment I did hold back a small amount from sale to cover the slim possibility that any fail to reach their destination.

These remaining books will be made available on a first come first serve basis in a couple of weeks time and if you want to be notified when they come on sale please use the email notification on the product page for the book on the MindFX website (www.mindfx.co.uk).

More accessory packs should be arriving tomorrow for those that own the book too ;)

Hope that clarifies things ;)

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 16, 2019 10:29AM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, celebrity wrote:
The book is limited to only 500 copies all individually hand signed and numbered by Timon and whilst it is unavailable at the moment I did hold back a small amount from sale to cover the slim possibility that any fail to reach their destination.

These remaining books will be made available on a first come first serve basis in a couple of weeks time and if you want to be notified when they come on sale please use the email notification on the product page for the book on the MindFX website (www.mindfx.co.uk).

More accessory packs should be arriving tomorrow for those that own the book too ;)

Hope that clarifies things ;)

Best Wishes Michael [/quote]

Ha ha ha, that just shows how great you are with customer service! Had the foresight to hold back a few to cover damaged/lost in shipping orders. Hats off to you sir, hats off.
Message: Posted by: Andrew Sway (Jul 16, 2019 03:22PM)
Is anyone who ordered the book and Accessory pack, getting an shipping confirmation ?

I don't get any shipping confirmation so far.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 16, 2019 04:13PM)
I never got a shipping notice but the book did arrive at my door, don't be discouraged.

I'm glad I bought my book when I did, I'm a sucker for limited runs.
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 16, 2019 04:19PM)
MinderX I had to forgo the shipment notifications due to the huge amount of orders being sent at the same time (over a thousand parcels in the past two weeks) but having noted the profile pinning you in Germany I can confirm that your order is posted and will be with you early next week ;)

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: Andrew Sway (Jul 16, 2019 04:30PM)
Hello Michael,

Thank you very much for the information.

Best wishes Andreas
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mindbender (Jul 16, 2019 05:46PM)
Michael, your post office must love you!
Message: Posted by: bowers (Jul 16, 2019 06:56PM)
Hi Michael
I guess mine is on the way also.
Didn't get a notice either.
Also had Phasma ordered too.
Todd
Message: Posted by: Michael.Kegel (Jul 16, 2019 07:30PM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Cheers for that response.

So there won't be any re-prints? 500 copies and that's it, though they did sell out within no more than 10 days? Sounds odd to me.

I'm well-prepared to buy a copy for myself right away, and I'm sure there will be more interested who weren't lucky as far as the 500 copies are concerned.

So, is this sell out definite and final, and there won't be any re-print? Anyone able to clear that up? Many thanks in advance. [/quote]

If they reprinted it then it would be contradicting the fact that this was a LIMITED run publication then wouldn't it? If you were selling a product and you advertise that product to being LIMITED to a certain quantity worldwide, you would effectively be lying if you then go do a reprint would you not? That would automatically hurt your reputation as a company would it not? [/quote]

Regardless of something contradicting a company's announcement ... If there's a greater demand than 500 buyers, wouldn't it hurt a company's reputation if this company disregards this demand? Imagine 5,000 people would've decided to buy this book if there were more than 500 copies available and the company in question would not go to any lengths to satisfy 4,500 prospective customers but rather decides to put 4,500 prospective customers off by emphasising that limited means limited. Frankly, I've never understood this "limited" concept. Tough luck who didn't hit the buy button instantly upon hearing of this offer and without giving much thought to whether or not this might suit one's performance style. Doesn't feel all too good. It's not even commercial thinking because the people who took said decision are even letting a good deal of money slip through their fingers. And if the idea of limiting the quantity of a printed copy is the decisive factor here, then maybe a download file might reduce the printing expenses allowing to keep this book available for more than the first 500.

However, and that's a huge "however" ... I carefully read what Michael said about the notify-me option provided by mindfx.co.uk which I've already arranged for. Fingers crossed that I'll be one of the lucky ones who will own this apparently limited and never-again-for-sale-again offer, because I truly admire Timon's work and find it a pity that so many (less valuable) magic products flood the market while precious gems like this one are only for the privileged as it seems.

PS: my apologies if my response offended somebody. I just needed to vent my spleen obviously.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 16, 2019 08:37PM)
I just think it's a shame to promote pirate sites

As anyone who wants a copy will have to buy one from one of the many chinese sites

You may say that they should just accept that they are sold out... but if the author makes no way to buy a legit copy - it's a lot harder to complain about pirate copies... as the author has created the demand by not selling anymore

I know it would be pirated anyway - it's just sad that from now on ONLY the people running the pirate sites will make money off of Timon's work
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 16, 2019 08:49PM)
There is no way to justify purchasing a pirated copy of anything.
Message: Posted by: Morganjj (Jul 16, 2019 10:09PM)
"If there's a greater demand than 500 buyers, wouldn't it hurt a company's reputation if this company disregards this demand?"

There is zero obligation for anyone to sell you anything simply because you want it.

People these days are a disaster. You're not a customer, the customer is not always right, and you don't get to have things simply because you demand them. None of this is rocket science, but it seems to fly right by people these days.

"You may say that they should just accept that they are sold out... but if the author makes no way to buy a legit copy - it's a lot harder to complain about pirate copies.."

No it's not. You have no entitlement to other peoples work.

Holy moly. This is magic. And we're supposed to be able to buy any secret we please simply because we want to? What has the world come to?
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 16, 2019 11:21PM)
Ha - don't shoot the messenger

It's up to the author - but if they make it so the only way to get their work is from pirates... they are fueling the pirates and helping their business

You can say there is no justifying buying a pirate copy, or that people have no entitlement to other peoples work - but that doesn't change the reality

If the author won't sell you a copy... well... at that point you can't even say that buying a pirate version is taking money away from the creator

I would love the pirate sites to not exist - but nobody has a solution that will work to stop them

I think limiting sales - will only help them, not that they need help at this stage
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 17, 2019 01:43AM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, The Duster wrote:
I just think it's a shame to promote pirate sites

As anyone who wants a copy will have to buy one from one of the many chinese sites

You may say that they should just accept that they are sold out... but if the author makes no way to buy a legit copy - it's a lot harder to complain about pirate copies... as the author has created the demand by not selling anymore

I know it would be pirated anyway - it's just sad that from now on ONLY the people running the pirate sites will make money off of Timon's work [/quote]

They donít ďhaveĒ to support pirate sites, they choose to be a thief! No oneís forcing them to support a thief and in my mind, people who buy things knowing they are stolen, are no better than thieves themselves. I understand people might be disappointed not to own the book but that is up to the writer and it doesnít justify using pirate sites
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Jul 17, 2019 02:03AM)
Duster is right and there is no justification in piracy but in reality itís a fact of life . Main dealers and creators constantly use other peopleís ideas and work often saying we were already thinking of that so itís independent creativity etc ( that old chestnut ) .
Or they turn your idea down only to release it a year later with a name change and a minor deliberate unneeded slight order of procedure change . Thatís also deception and wrong but it is the sad reality of life and the Internet Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: Michael.Kegel (Jul 17, 2019 02:43AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, Morganjj wrote:
"If there's a greater demand than 500 buyers, wouldn't it hurt a company's reputation if this company disregards this demand?"

There is zero obligation for anyone to sell you anything simply because you want it.

People these days are a disaster. You're not a customer, the customer is not always right, and you don't get to have things simply because you demand them. None of this is rocket science, but it seems to fly right by people these days.

"You may say that they should just accept that they are sold out... but if the author makes no way to buy a legit copy - it's a lot harder to complain about pirate copies.."

No it's not. You have no entitlement to other peoples work.

Holy moly. This is magic. And we're supposed to be able to buy any secret we please simply because we want to? What has the world come to? [/quote]

I was afraid that this might happen. Please read between the lines.

Of course there is no obligation but apparently a disposition to sell this very product - but not to anybody. Just to 500 lucky ones. See what I mean?

And yes, I'm most certainly not entitled to other people's work, BUT Timon decided to have his work marketed. I still - even from your reply - don't get why the decision was taken to publish this but only in such a limited and small quantity that people who are genuinely interested in his work are compelled to miss out on this one.

The world has come to the following: magicians sell effects they deem to be sold for good money, and other magicians who are willing to spend money on said effects buy them. It's that simple. There's no "holy moly". It's not that anybody wants to know a secret they shouldn't know. It's that someone would really like to know a secret that has been revealed by the creator himself.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 17, 2019 03:49AM)
It's crazy that the creator decides to not sell any more copies - when he knows that the pirate sites will sell them


There is an argument that it's NOT theft - because you aren't taking any money away from the creator [as he won't sell any more]

You aren't effecting the creators 'bottom line' - the music and film industry always talk about piracy in terms of how much it costs them

I just feel a little annoyed on any decsion [by creators] that increases the amount of people who use/buy pirate versions. As you can argue all you want that people shouldn't use the chinese websites - but when you give them no other option [if they want to get the product]

And it's lazy to say if they missed out they shouldn't be able to get it anywhere.

I have no horse in this, other than a load of my work has been pirated - as I already have the actual book...

But I think it's unfair for someone coming into the art tomorrow, or who didn't see this book until now - to be told - too late...

But some people love the feeling of them having it to them selves - and it's almost an enjoyment others not being able to get one themselves
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 17, 2019 04:00AM)
Theft / not theft, it's morally wrong and those supporting pirated material and knock offs are as bad as thieves in my opinion. However, you only have to reconcile your actions with your own conscience, not mine.

In all walks of life, people sell things on a limited basis for a variety of reasons. It's of course frustrating for those who wanted something and missed out but hey, a) life isn't always fair and b) that is up to the creator.

I don't personally care about the limited nature of this because I suspect even an unlimited and really popular trick is only likely to sell a few thousand units, but I think we should honour the creator's wishes and suggesting buying / obtaining pirated versions is not on in my opinion under any circumstances and those in our community do this should rightly be vilified
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 17, 2019 04:05AM)
But it's ok to let friends read your book?

I know legally it is

But when it's the 'secret' you are paying for AND when it's a limited run - you are in effect paying for only 499 others to have that info - that should also register on people's conscience. That if you let friends read your copy, you have in effect lessened the value of everyone else's book.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 17, 2019 04:11AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, The Duster wrote:
But it's ok to let friends read your book?

I know legally it is

But when it's the 'secret' you are paying for AND when it's a limited run - you are in effect paying for only 499 others to have that info - that should also register on people's conscience. That if you let friends read your copy, you have in effect lessened the value of everyone else's book. [/quote]

lending a book to a friend is vastly different to a site copying it to PDF and distributing for free or financial gain to hundreds maybe thousands of people.....don't you think? Do we really need to debate that pirates are terrible and people obtaining copyrighted material from them are terrible too? If the answer is yes we do have to debate, lets just agree to disagree as you wont convince me its ok and I don't want to bog this thread down and distract from people discussing what sounds like a fantastic book.
Message: Posted by: Michael.Kegel (Jul 17, 2019 04:27AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, Paul S Wingham wrote:
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, The Duster wrote:
But it's ok to let friends read your book?

I know legally it is

But when it's the 'secret' you are paying for AND when it's a limited run - you are in effect paying for only 499 others to have that info - that should also register on people's conscience. That if you let friends read your copy, you have in effect lessened the value of everyone else's book. [/quote]

lending a book to a friend is vastly different to a site copying it to PDF and distributing for free or financial gain to hundreds maybe thousands of people.....don't you think? Do we really need to debate that pirates are terrible and people obtaining copyrighted material from them are terrible too? If the answer is yes we do have to debate, lets just agree to disagree as you wont convince me its ok and I don't want to bog this thread down and distract from people discussing what sounds like a fantastic book. [/quote]

I'm absolutely with you as far as piracy is concerned.

I also agree with you that the limited-quantity strategy obviously distracts from using this thread to discuss the content and potential of Timon's book.

However, and correct me on this if I'm wrong, this thread is anyway most likely only interesting for slightly more than 500 people - those who were lucky to hit the buy button on the mentioned first-come-first-served basis - as any other person in my humble opinion wouldn't find it worthwhile reading about a (hands down) fantastic book they will never own because it apparently will never be sold again. I mean why would I go and spend time on getting all excited and enthusiastic over something I'll be dying to have after reading about it here ... but in fact never will?

I still hope that the coming-soon badge on the mindfx.co.uk product page is hinting to the very fact that the publisher has acknowledged the circumstance that the demand for Timon's undoubtedly excellent book is far greater than 500 and that by creating exclusiveness one may put off fellow magicians sincerely admiring those who really created an added value amongst all the way too often mediocre magic products out there on the markt.

And again: no offence meant - just my two cents on the sales strategy.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 17, 2019 04:27AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, Paul S Wingham wrote:

lending a book to a friend is vastly different to a site copying it to PDF and distributing for free or financial gain [/quote]

I didn't say it wasn't


[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, Paul S Wingham wrote:

Do we really need to debate that pirates are terrible and people obtaining copyrighted material from them are terrible too? [/quote]

It's cool - I think you don't understand what the discussion is about. It's not about the pirates - it's about the creator.

Is it terrible for them to push 'customers' to the pirates - people who would have bought the item... you say [I guess] it's all down to the 'customers' and they should never use pirate sites. I say in the real world - creators are walking people over to the 'dark side'

I hate pirates - lost me loads of money/sales

But I can understand why 'customers' would go to them - in situations like this... and I see that it doesn't effect the creator's profit/loss. This situation is created by the creator.

That's the debate we were having....

Anyway
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 17, 2019 04:32AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
I still hope that the coming-soon badge on the mindfx.co.uk product page is hinting to the very fact that the publisher has acknowledged the circumstance that the demand for Timon's undoubtedly excellent book is far greater than 500 and that by creating exclusiveness one may put off fellow magicians sincerely admiring those who really created an added value amongst all the way too often mediocre magic products out there on the markt.

And again: no offence meant - just my two cents on the sales strategy. [/quote]

I'm sure that, that would be the worst outcome for FX/Michael/Timon

If they sell the book on a one off run of 500 copies - and then go back on that... what about the people who already bought it. The price they paid for it - was for a book that would only have 500 copies sold. It would potentially leave a bad taste in the mouth of some. And would forever be something that was used to sell the books - that was not true.

I wouldn't mind if FX did this [as a buyer of the book] - but others I am sure would complain. Such is life...
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 17, 2019 04:54AM)
Personally I am not a fan of limited editions except in circumstances where the limited edition is an enhanced version of the otherwise freely available item. For example I have the limited edition deluxe leather bound harbincadabra. The normal version of harbincadabra was not limited and includes the same info as the deluxe one but it isn't leather bound with gold leaf edges. However creators have the absolute right to choose how many copies they want to make available just as they have the absolute right not to release their material at all.

The reality is that when it comes to Mentalism books they are pretty much all limited to an extent whether formally or informally unless printed by Lulu because there comes a point where there isnít sufficient demand for another print run which will mean some people might miss out. I am constantly told by people that my book is on peoples list but I donít have many copies left and when they are gone they are gone because the remaining demand isnít enough to warrant another print run.

In this particular case this effect is a signature routine of Timonís that he is still using and so I can understand why he would want to limit the number of people doing it. The fact that it will probably get pirated is not necessarily a consideration when it comes down to how many copies you will produce. I know the pirates have sold more copies of Ophiuchus than I have despite the genuine article being readily available, good quality and pretty cheap so people will go to the pirates either way. Making more copies available is not the solution to piracy and neither is lack of availability the cause of piracy.

The battle against the pirates is an entirely separate issue that is driven by peopleís desire to save money. Even if you put something out for a dollar the pirates would still sell plenty of copies at 20 cents each. Unfortunately there are plenty of people out there that donít care how cheap something is if they can get 5 for the price of one.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Jul 17, 2019 05:46AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, Paul S Wingham wrote:
Theft / not theft, it's morally wrong and those supporting pirated material and knock offs are as bad as thieves in my opinion. However, you only have to reconcile your actions with your own conscience, not mine. [/quote]

The problem is that the majority of high priced releases (and low-priced) include theft of other creators' material and principles -with or without credit (credit is not permission).

The modern Mentalism market has become like the Wild West. The chase for money by "creators" has helped create the pirates and the market for pirates.

I don't include this book, which is wonderfully written-even if the routine only qualifies as "the holy grail" in certain, very specific circumstances.
Message: Posted by: TheGingerWizard (Jul 17, 2019 05:47AM)
I bought this book at the same time as PHASMA from mindfx. I was unsure where to post this as although they are both great books, they both slightly irritated me for the same reason. What's with the incessant footnotes?? It really disrupts the flow of the text and takes away some of the enjoyment of reading. If you see a small number at the end of a sentence (often) you have two choices, avert your eyes to the bottom of the page to read something in a slightly smaller font, or wait until the end of the page and read all the footnotes out of context looking back to see what that particular point pertains to. Either way it is jarring. If it is relevant write it into the main body of the book, if not consider leaving it out. Footnotes on almost every page makes the reading experience akin to a choose your own adventure - ok number 3, where's number 3 right ok, where was I? (1)






















1. I hope this doesn't become a trend.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 17, 2019 08:50AM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Cheers for that response.

So there won't be any re-prints? 500 copies and that's it, though they did sell out within no more than 10 days? Sounds odd to me.

I'm well-prepared to buy a copy for myself right away, and I'm sure there will be more interested who weren't lucky as far as the 500 copies are concerned.

So, is this sell out definite and final, and there won't be any re-print? Anyone able to clear that up? Many thanks in advance. [/quote]

If they reprinted it then it would be contradicting the fact that this was a LIMITED run publication then wouldn't it? If you were selling a product and you advertise that product to being LIMITED to a certain quantity worldwide, you would effectively be lying if you then go do a reprint would you not? That would automatically hurt your reputation as a company would it not? [/quote]

Regardless of something contradicting a company's announcement ... If there's a greater demand than 500 buyers, wouldn't it hurt a company's reputation if this company disregards this demand? Imagine 5,000 people would've decided to buy this book if there were more than 500 copies available and the company in question would not go to any lengths to satisfy 4,500 prospective customers but rather decides to put 4,500 prospective customers off by emphasising that limited means limited. Frankly, I've never understood this "limited" concept. Tough luck who didn't hit the buy button instantly upon hearing of this offer and without giving much thought to whether or not this might suit one's performance style. Doesn't feel all too good. It's not even commercial thinking because the people who took said decision are even letting a good deal of money slip through their fingers. And if the idea of limiting the quantity of a printed copy is the decisive factor here, then maybe a download file might reduce the printing expenses allowing to keep this book available for more than the first 500.

However, and that's a huge "however" ... I carefully read what Michael said about the notify-me option provided by mindfx.co.uk which I've already arranged for. Fingers crossed that I'll be one of the lucky ones who will own this apparently limited and never-again-for-sale-again offer, because I truly admire Timon's work and find it a pity that so many (less valuable) magic products flood the market while precious gems like this one are only for the privileged as it seems.

PS: my apologies if my response offended somebody. I just needed to vent my spleen obviously. [/quote]

I would agree with you if the product was never originally marketed to be a LIMITED release item.

Remember, having a LIMITED release item does several things for the product:

1. Allows the item to be charged at times at a higher premium (often times, a MUCH higher premium) than if it was a release with not set limit of copies.
2. Allows the item to sell much more quickly and often times would be able to move more copies than it would have otherwise (the LIMITED quality of the release often is the driving momentum of sales for the release).
3. If planned properly, one can make MORE money by making a product a LIMITED release than they would have otherwise if it was not limited through life time sales.

Limited releases are not pro-consumer, as you have pointed out. However, as a retailer, end of the day it's a matter of economics. As a creator, I believe that a creator also has the ability to limit their releases. Think back to Derren Brown's books. They were both limited releases. In fact, Pure Effects had two runs, the second run is missing a routine which was in the original run. Why? Because Derren wished to keep that routine from high circulation as it was a routine that is near and dear to him. So with that in mind, why shouldn't a creator be allowed the freedom to limit their releases? It's their material, they have the right to release it in whichever manner they like. It's not pro-consumer but then again, this is someone's creative output and they are perfectly entitled to limit the release of their material if they wish.

From a business perspective, if something is advertised as a limited release and because it's super popular, they then break their initial promise and make it a release going on for an indefinite amount, the retailer now faces the issue of breaking a promise essentially to existing customers. This directly and negatively reflects on the seller/producer. Even when Guy Hollingworth released a new version of Reformation, he actually shot a brand new video for Reformation rather than just digitizing the original VHS and releasing that. He did that to both keep his promise of the limited nature of the original Reformation VHS as well as to introduce his continued work on it in the years since that original release. Even with that, the original customers of the Reformation VHS were at bare minimum slightly annoyed by this move.

Let's be perfectly honest here, your main objection here at the end of the day is that you missed out on buying the book and are now sharing your frustrations because of that. That's understandable, but you are ignoring all the points I've made above. I also do not find anything you have posted to be offensive, it's all understandable.
Message: Posted by: Michael.Kegel (Jul 17, 2019 09:13AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Jul 16, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Cheers for that response.

So there won't be any re-prints? 500 copies and that's it, though they did sell out within no more than 10 days? Sounds odd to me.

I'm well-prepared to buy a copy for myself right away, and I'm sure there will be more interested who weren't lucky as far as the 500 copies are concerned.

So, is this sell out definite and final, and there won't be any re-print? Anyone able to clear that up? Many thanks in advance. [/quote]

If they reprinted it then it would be contradicting the fact that this was a LIMITED run publication then wouldn't it? If you were selling a product and you advertise that product to being LIMITED to a certain quantity worldwide, you would effectively be lying if you then go do a reprint would you not? That would automatically hurt your reputation as a company would it not? [/quote]

Regardless of something contradicting a company's announcement ... If there's a greater demand than 500 buyers, wouldn't it hurt a company's reputation if this company disregards this demand? Imagine 5,000 people would've decided to buy this book if there were more than 500 copies available and the company in question would not go to any lengths to satisfy 4,500 prospective customers but rather decides to put 4,500 prospective customers off by emphasising that limited means limited. Frankly, I've never understood this "limited" concept. Tough luck who didn't hit the buy button instantly upon hearing of this offer and without giving much thought to whether or not this might suit one's performance style. Doesn't feel all too good. It's not even commercial thinking because the people who took said decision are even letting a good deal of money slip through their fingers. And if the idea of limiting the quantity of a printed copy is the decisive factor here, then maybe a download file might reduce the printing expenses allowing to keep this book available for more than the first 500.

However, and that's a huge "however" ... I carefully read what Michael said about the notify-me option provided by mindfx.co.uk which I've already arranged for. Fingers crossed that I'll be one of the lucky ones who will own this apparently limited and never-again-for-sale-again offer, because I truly admire Timon's work and find it a pity that so many (less valuable) magic products flood the market while precious gems like this one are only for the privileged as it seems.

PS: my apologies if my response offended somebody. I just needed to vent my spleen obviously. [/quote]

I would agree with you if the product was never originally marketed to be a LIMITED release item.

Remember, having a LIMITED release item does several things for the product:

1. Allows the item to be charged at times at a higher premium (often times, a MUCH higher premium) than if it was a release with not set limit of copies.
2. Allows the item to sell much more quickly and often times would be able to move more copies than it would have otherwise (the LIMITED quality of the release often is the driving momentum of sales for the release).
3. If planned properly, one can make MORE money by making a product a LIMITED release than they would have otherwise if it was not limited through life time sales.

Limited releases are not pro-consumer, as you have pointed out. However, as a retailer, end of the day it's a matter of economics. As a creator, I believe that a creator also has the ability to limit their releases. Think back to Derren Brown's books. They were both limited releases. In fact, Pure Effects had two runs, the second run is missing a routine which was in the original run. Why? Because Derren wished to keep that routine from high circulation as it was a routine that is near and dear to him. So with that in mind, why shouldn't a creator be allowed the freedom to limit their releases? It's their material, they have the right to release it in whichever manner they like. It's not pro-consumer but then again, this is someone's creative output and they are perfectly entitled to limit the release of their material if they wish.

From a business perspective, if something is advertised as a limited release and because it's super popular, they then break their initial promise and make it a release going on for an indefinite amount, the retailer now faces the issue of breaking a promise essentially to existing customers. This directly and negatively reflects on the seller/producer. Even when Guy Hollingworth released a new version of Reformation, he actually shot a brand new video for Reformation rather than just digitizing the original VHS and releasing that. He did that to both keep his promise of the limited nature of the original Reformation VHS as well as to introduce his continued work on it in the years since that original release. Even with that, the original customers of the Reformation VHS were at bare minimum slightly annoyed by this move.

Let's be perfectly honest here, your main objection here at the end of the day is that you missed out on buying the book and are now sharing your frustrations because of that. That's understandable, but you are ignoring all the points I've made above. I also do not find anything you have posted to be offensive, it's all understandable. [/quote]

Actually, I'm not ignoring all the points you've made above, I rather don't understand doing stuff like that. To a certain degree, these actions are understandable, but putting off prospective customers who don't hit the buy button right away and even as far as pre-order items are concerned is never a good idea - in my opinion. That doesn't affect Timon's work which still is absolutely brilliant, and I'm writing that without having had the opportunity to take a look into this book. However, of course every publisher or creater may do as they please.

Maybe I'm lucky with the notify-me option Michael addressed before in this thread. Fingers crossed.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 17, 2019 09:24AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, Michael.Kegel wrote:
Actually, I'm not ignoring all the points you've made above, I rather don't understand doing stuff like that. To a certain degree, these actions are understandable, but putting off prospective customers who don't hit the buy button right away and even as far as pre-order items are concerned is never a good idea - in my opinion. That doesn't affect Timon's work which still is absolutely brilliant, and I'm writing that without having had the opportunity to take a look into this book. However, of course every publisher or creater may do as they please.

Maybe I'm lucky with the notify-me option Michael addressed before in this thread. Fingers crossed. [/quote]

The book is truly exceptional though. I'm deeper into it now, I'm very impressed and have learned a lot of interesting things in regards to the process of routining, what a routine is, what a effect is, and essentially how to craft a routine and effect. The information and philosophy contained in this book is so well thought out and you can tell that what he preaches he has practiced and worked in order to come up with what the things he is sharing with the reader.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 17, 2019 09:51AM)
This has gone off the rails...
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 17, 2019 09:57AM)
Whenever I take on a project from another creator I help to advise them on quantities for production. Both myself and Timon eventually agreed upon a quantity of 500. Generally speaking runs of 500 books normally sell out over a couple of months to a year depending upon the nature of the material and it's target audience (thus giving everyone a realistic chance to pick up a copy) but even I underestimated how fast this book would sell.

Whilst I fully sympathise with those that missed out, I have to stay true and honorable to my word therfore will not be producing any more of these books in respect for those that purchased it on good faith that it would be kept limited to 500 copies. This decision was made prior to print and so whilst I understand this may frustrate some, I would rather keep my integrity than go against my word for profit.

I am a firm activist in taking action against pirate stores and whilst many tell me it is a waste of time, my inner self always tries to prove otherwise. Those that have any respect for their art or indeed the artists will steer clear of sending money to those that steal the interlectual property of others and whilst pirates may pirate, the physical book itself is a limited piece of art that can never be copied.

Whilst I myelf have been in the exact same position of missing out on a limited book (as it was sold out moments after it was announced) I reasoned that I already have plenty of books filled with gems within my library that I haven't been given the adequate time and study they deserve. Take this opportunity to look through the library you already have, choose a book at random, turn to a random page and begin to read, chances are high that you will surprise yourself ;)

Best Wishes to all!

Michael
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jul 17, 2019 10:34AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, The Duster wrote:
This situation is created by the creator.
[/quote]
No, in this you are very, VERY wrong. This ďsituationĒ is not created by the person releasing the product. It IS created by people who have no concern obtaining things illegally and then justifying their actions. Blaming the people releasing the product is exactly the same mentality as blaming the guy who didnít lock his door when his stuff got stolen. It is exactly the same mentality of ďlook at how she was dressed...Ē

There will ALWAYS be a line of limited distribution. Bullying people into going back on their word because one just has to have this version of a magic trick... really now. The idea is theirs. How the choose to disseminate that idea is their choice. If one canít abide by it and has to go out and acquire it illegally, that is THEIR CHOICE. No author is forcing them to do so.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Jul 17, 2019 11:15AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, celebrity wrote:
Whenever I take on a project from another creator I help to advise them on quantities for production. Both myself and Timon eventually agreed upon a quantity of 500. Generally speaking runs of 500 books normally sell out over a couple of months to a year depending upon the nature of the material and it's target audience (thus giving everyone a realistic chance to pick up a copy) but even I underestimated how fast this book would sell.

Whilst I fully sympathise with those that missed out, I have to stay true and honorable to my word therfore will not be producing any more of these books in respect for those that purchased it on good faith that it would be kept limited to 500 copies. This decision was made prior to print and so whilst I understand this may frustrate some, I would rather keep my integrity than go against my word for profit.

Michael [/quote]

Well played, sir.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 17, 2019 11:23AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, The Duster wrote:
This situation is created by the creator.
[/quote]
No, in this you are very, VERY wrong. This ďsituationĒ is not created by the person releasing the product. It IS created by people who have no concern obtaining things illegally and then justifying their actions. Blaming the people releasing the product is exactly the same mentality as blaming the guy who didnít lock his door when his stuff got stolen. It is exactly the same mentality of ďlook at how she was dressed...Ē

There will ALWAYS be a line of limited distribution. Bullying people into going back on their word because one just has to have this version of a magic trick... really now. The idea is theirs. How the choose to disseminate that idea is their choice. If one canít abide by it and has to go out and acquire it illegally, that is THEIR CHOICE. No author is forcing them to do so. [/quote]

Hmm quoting seven words and not taking the context of the paragraph - crazy

But then to suggest Iím bullying ppl into going back on their word.... when I argued the exact opposite. Nice
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jul 17, 2019 12:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, celebrity wrote:

[b]. . . . and whilst pirates may pirate, the physical book itself is a limited piece of art that can never be copied.[/b]
[/quote]

EXACTLY - very well said.

Over the years I have seen that any such well written and well accepted limited release are truly a priceless master piece of our art.

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jul 17, 2019 01:09PM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, The Duster wrote:

Hmm quoting seven words and not taking the context of the paragraph - crazy

But then to suggest Iím bullying ppl into going back on their word.... when I argued the exact opposite. Nice [/quote]
Well, that IS the context of the post. In fact, you stated or implied it three times in your post.

And for clarityís sake, I specifically did not say ďyouĒ in my second paragraph. A detail which YOU specifically overlooked. See how that works. The second paragraph is to ďonesĒ in general. If you took that as personally directed at you, I apologize for the lack of clarity.
Message: Posted by: Sethekk (Jul 17, 2019 01:29PM)
Mine has arrived with accessory pack ! Canít wait to get started.
Thanks again for the outstanding service.
Message: Posted by: Mobius (Jul 17, 2019 03:33PM)
Really sorry to have missed out on this. I got caught out by a classic piece of misdirection. Had this in my sights when, suddenly, Phasma became available. Which one to choose? Left? Right? Luckily Michael's copy on his website reassured me that they had chosen the magic "500 copies" as it was low enough to be a limited edition but high enough to be available for a few months for those cautious stragglers who hadn't yet arrived at the party. Phew! Phasma it was then.
Still, it is not the end of the world. I like Tequila Hustler and would still use the villian/hero idea which I think was suggested by Peter Turner. When you get to use two spectators it allows them to independently decide if they want to play the villain or hero. You could then have either two truth tellers, two liars or one of each. Even the participants don't know what the other one is. A random spectator can choose who I ask the first or second question to and from that I am able to reveal who has the coin. It's a great plot, plays well and is completely impromptu. Dare I say it is better than a straightforward which hand?
And . . . there is Flux. Not an off the cuff effect but its a great tool with more than one use.
Obviously would not have wanted to miss out on this effect but can console myself that I can still do a great which hand (thanks Colin Mcleod) while munching on sour grapes and keeping a straight face.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 17, 2019 03:46PM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, Mobius wrote:
Really sorry to have missed out on this. I got caught out by a classic piece of misdirection. Had this in my sights when, suddenly, Phasma became available. Which one to choose? Left? Right? Luckily Michael's copy on his website reassured me that they had chosen the magic "500 copies" as it was low enough to be a limited edition but high enough to be available for a few months for those cautious stragglers who hadn't yet arrived at the party. Phew! Phasma it was then.
Still, it is not the end of the world. I like Tequila Hustler and would still use the villian/hero idea which I think was suggested by Peter Turner. When you get to use two spectators it allows them to independently decide if they want to play the villain or hero. You could then have either two truth tellers, two liars or one of each. Even the participants don't know what the other one is. A random spectator can choose who I ask the first or second question to and from that I am able to reveal who has the coin. It's a great plot, plays well and is completely impromptu. Dare I say it is better than a straightforward which hand?
And . . . there is Flux. Not an off the cuff effect but its a great tool with more than one use.
Obviously would not have wanted to miss out on this effect but can console myself that I can still do a great which hand (thanks Colin Mcleod) while munching on sour grapes and keeping a straight face. [/quote]

I think Timon's method is actually better since you can use the Tequila Hustler presentation BUT you can actually tell who is actually lying or telling the truth for real. This also replaces Fl*x for the method for which hand AND you can use Colin's "coding" system with it to force a outcome/prediction. It's really really really good. LoL.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 17, 2019 04:00PM)
I have an electronic option, but Timonís is a better method. You can also use various other objects with Timonís. Iím actually using mine as a backup whilst I work Timonís method until I can get it down 100%.
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 17, 2019 04:22PM)
Don't overlook Kieron Johnson's suggestion of doing this with no object at all and just having the participant imagine an object in their hand. Trust me, it is superb ;)

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: magikcid (Jul 17, 2019 07:52PM)
I'm pretty bummed out about missing out on this myself but I always think there is a bright side. in this particular case its knowing that a non gimmicked version is possible and trying to come up with a methodology of your own. I remember just before Garret Thomas released Ring Thing, I saw footage of it and was burned so badly. I started trying to work out a method and it was different from Garrett's but I came up with a solution that I use now in my own ring routine. Maybe one day you will be releasing a limited run of a book on your take of the which hand concept...🧐
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Jul 17, 2019 08:54PM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, magikcid wrote:
in this particular case its knowing that a non gimmicked version is possible....[/quote]

Indeed.

[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Patrick Redford wrote:

Just to note: Prevaricator also describes ways to do which hand and the main routine without asking any questions or using verbal subterfuge. It's a massive project and most of it usually overlooked with MANY contributors with wonderful methods and ideas. That said, I haven't yet had a chance to check out Timon's new work, but knowing him, I'm sure its wonderful and worth your time and study. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: magikcid (Jul 17, 2019 11:52PM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, the Sponge wrote:
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, magikcid wrote:
in this particular case its knowing that a non gimmicked version is possible....[/quote]

Indeed.

[quote]On Jun 29, 2019, Patrick Redford wrote:

Just to note: Prevaricator also describes ways to do which hand and the main routine without asking any questions or using verbal subterfuge. It's a massive project and most of it usually overlooked with MANY contributors with wonderful methods and ideas. That said, I haven't yet had a chance to check out Timon's new work, but knowing him, I'm sure its wonderful and worth your time and study. [/quote] [/quote]

I agree, I love Prevaricator, Flux, Tequila Hustler, V2...the more weapons the better
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 18, 2019 04:06AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, celebrity wrote:
Don't overlook Kieron Johnson's suggestion of doing this with no object at all and just having the participant imagine an object in their hand. Trust me, it is superb ;)

Best Wishes Michael [/quote]



where can I find it?
thanks a lot
Message: Posted by: dave_matkin (Jul 18, 2019 04:10AM)
Anyone have Which Hand Method & Philosophy by Timon Krause that they no longer want? I missed getting the book direct from Mind FX. PM if you do.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 18, 2019 04:42AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2019, celebrity wrote:
Don't overlook Kieron Johnson's suggestion of doing this with no object at all and just having the participant imagine an object in their hand. Trust me, it is superb ;)

Best Wishes Michael [/quote]

ok. I misunderstood. you mean doing this with krause method but nothing in hand
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 18, 2019 11:39AM)
I haven't had time to read through more of the book. Tonight I'm starting on the section where he gives a breakdown of the script for You Have No Choice. So I've read through and have been working on the actual method taught in the book.

I'm actually curious why other customers have not chimed in more about this release. I personally am very fond of it and even more impressed with the guidance he provides in regards to crafting one's own effect and routine (that can be applied to everything you do, not just Which Hand, much of the book feels like the Which Hand method is a trojan horse to get people in the door to learn magic/mentalism theory, the method itself is superb though).
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Jul 18, 2019 01:53PM)
Timonís performance on fool us was absolutely great , I have no idea how itís done but my speculation is drawn from the fact you can do it with an imaginary object and no questions asked .
That leads me to think probably incorrectly that the method is posture or hand position based .
I have seen a few of the top Ď which hand Ď specialists at Blackpool in the Ruskin demonstrating hand posture tells .
That is what at least my speculation is based upon .
Whenever I try to create an effect I start at the finish ( what I want to achieve ) and work backwards as cleanly as possible to the start .
Itís the same when I speculate on an effect as well .
Just my two cents Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: streifi (Jul 18, 2019 02:14PM)
I missed getting the book too. Please PM if anyone is willing to sell.
Message: Posted by: hektormagic (Jul 19, 2019 01:54AM)
Hi guys. For those who still want info about the book, here is my opinion.
I received it and still not have time to read the whole book but about half of it. There is not only the method but also many good advices by Timon from his practice.
The method is simple and very clever. I believe it can be close to 100 percent sure so I am eager to test it very soon, but first want to read whole book.

I know almost all possible methods for Which Hand effect (electronic, with props and propless) and even have one my own propless method useful also for imaginary objects, so from my experience I can say that the method by Timon is practical, interesting and looks useful. Krause explains all details and nuances very well. So I am happy with the book and recommend it.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 19, 2019 03:58AM)
So the package arrived and oh what a package it was. Firstly, Michael wraps things up good and tight with what appears to be half a role of packing tape, which gives you a lovely challenge before you get to the good stuff. This if anything heightened the anticipation as I wrestled with the tape (in fairness, if I'd got scissors rather than using a door key, it would have been easy :)

I finally got in and was greeted with a book which is beautiful. I know that's not important to everyone but its important to me and it really is a lovely looking book. However, I guess you aren't interested in Michael's package or what the book looks like, so the review itself. I'll start with the TL:DR version - Superb!

One criticism of some books is they don't give enough background to how the trick evolved, some do too much. This book strikes a perfect balance and introduces me to Timons' writing style, which I really enjoy. It's clear, it's concise and it's witty enough to hold my interest as the subject matter could otherwise be very dry. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

The method is brilliant and whilst I've not tried this in a full performance, I can see it being sure fire with a little practice and the accessory pack really helps you quickly get used to what you are looking for. I currently use flux and I am 95% certain this will replace that method. Firstly because electronics can and do fail and secondly because I actually think this is a cleaner way to achieve the same outcome. I do not say that lightly because flux is an incredibly powerful and reliable tool.

In terms of teaching, the book makes very clear what you have to do and I think most people would at least be able to have a good stab at this, with good results in a very short period of time. Clearly, to be 100% it will take time and practice, but not an absurd amount of time in my opinion. I intend to start practising it soon and may set something up on TAP app to cover any mistakes I make with an out.

So in summary, the book is beautiful, the method solid and the teaching great. If I was on WPR, I'd give it 100%. I genuinely cannot think how they could make this any better.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 19, 2019 03:00PM)
Hi is possible to learn and understand the method well just with the learning pack. and no book? thanks
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 19, 2019 03:02PM)
I have ordered just the available pack I hope to learn it the same
Message: Posted by: JamieD (Jul 19, 2019 04:01PM)
I finished reading this last week and I have been putting this into practice on friends, colleagues, family and even a few familiar regulars at residencies. I have now got it down to 95% accuracy! I did have to change one thing to make it more surefire, but by an large, I think this is going to be a part of my working set for many years to come! I can't wait to fully hone the routine to make it even more slick but, I think it is a fantastic routine and I can't recommend it enough!

Jamie Daws
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 20, 2019 03:52AM)
Any issues performing in some places? does the chosen
place effects on the results?
anyone is 100% after some practise?
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 20, 2019 02:48PM)
No clothing restriction?
Message: Posted by: patrick66 (Jul 20, 2019 02:55PM)
Where can I order the extra pack? I already have the book I really don't see the pack on MindFX.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 20, 2019 04:53PM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2019, markhitton wrote:
No clothing restriction? [/quote]

No clothing restrictions. You could perform with no clothes on....In fact I may well do just that at the next wedding I do.
Message: Posted by: strollingmagician (Jul 20, 2019 05:29PM)
Is this routine from this book? If not, where is this routine published? Thanks.

https://youtu.be/hIqfm-F01YQ
Message: Posted by: bowers (Jul 20, 2019 05:48PM)
My book arrived today can't wait to dig in.
Todd
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 20, 2019 07:00PM)
The method imo from reading the book is honestly secondary to all of the other information in the book which mainly deals with structure of a routine and a effect. So the Which Hand is in actuality a case study of the theory in action.

This is however not to say that the method isnít incredible as it is phenomenal and for anybody wishing to learn a which hand method and does not have a pet one they will never stop using, Which Hand by Timon imho is the best method. Iíve been using Timonís method and my goal with using the method is that I do not need to carry an expensive device around and for impromptu situations, I am now afforded the freedom to use an object which is laying about in the environment to perform which hand with rather than having to carry a special object for the purpose. There is most certainly a greater freedom to perform which hand completely impromptu now but have a level of cleanliness which verbal methods do not provide (since those require the audience and spectator to keep track of far more things in play than Timonís method requires).
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 21, 2019 02:19PM)
It would be great if there was a FB group for book owners.
Message: Posted by: TomB (Jul 21, 2019 06:03PM)
Is this better than sixth sense by Hugo Shelley?
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 21, 2019 07:24PM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2019, TomB wrote:
Is this better than sixth sense by Hugo Shelley? [/quote]
It all depends on how you define better.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 22, 2019 07:09AM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2019, TomB wrote:
Is this better than sixth sense by Hugo Shelley? [/quote]

Impossible to say in my opinion. I guess the way I would think about this is it turns you in to a human coin detector and like a gadget things can go wrong. Benefits of electronic devices are I that they remove a little bit of the risk the spectator does something out the ordinary because if they put coin in hand, the device should be able to pick it up. The downside with electronics is they can and do go wrong and if you do not have the device you cannot do the trick.

with this, whilst with practice the method is as close to 100% as you can get, there is always the risk the audience member does something completely counterintuitive and it ruins the results. However, without going in to it in depth, it would be quite difficult for a spectator to do this if you follow guidance given. Additionally, you have the benefit that you do not need anything with you beyond a coin and if like me, you are an amateur, you don't have a ton of money tied up in a gadget which does not see the light of day often. The other benefit is with this method, you do not need to touch or come close to their hand with your hand or arm.

I guess if you don't mind having the money tied up in a gadget and you are happy to put in some practice, you could use this to identify which hand and then use SS3 or flux to validate that, as a really belt and braces approach.

So I think the answer is both are fairly close to 100% but there are pros and cons. I don't want the money tied up in a gadget, because when I perform it is usually quite ad hoc, so for me this works well, but there are clearly some benefits to SS3 type gadgets.
Message: Posted by: bretti_bln (Jul 22, 2019 06:15PM)
Wonderfully written book and now that the book is no longer available, I recommend to buy at least the accessory package and watch the available videos of Timon.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 23, 2019 02:36AM)
Is really possible do it without the coin? as kieron johnson says if I remember well?
Message: Posted by: bretti_bln (Jul 23, 2019 04:44AM)
Yes, I think so - there are some suggestions in the book (pp. 104, 105) and for a good magician (not me) it is possible to find a nice presentation on it and maybe you should be prepared for a smart way out.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 23, 2019 06:07AM)
Thanks Brett
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 23, 2019 12:04PM)
Just so that everyones aware (as I have had several messages about this), the accessory packs are only being made available to those who own the book. I did list them up a few days back but people who didnít own the book were attempting to order and since the accessory packs do not come with any written instructions this would be money wasted for them. To save customer disappointment and having to process a large volume of refunds I have taken them off the site and will be offering them to owners direct ;)

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 23, 2019 12:27PM)
Here comes another round of complaining.
Message: Posted by: magicmind (Jul 23, 2019 12:32PM)
Hope my book and accessory pack arrive soon. I too have missed the boat on purchases like this in the past, but buying quickly on limited run items such as this are risk free. If I dislike it, it can easily be sold. That being said I do not foresee selling this.
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jul 23, 2019 12:35PM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2019, magicmind wrote:

Hope my book and accessory pack arrive soon. I too have missed the boat on purchases like this in the past, but buying quickly on limited run items such as this are risk free. [b]If I dislike it, it can easily be sold.[/b] That being said I do not foresee selling this. [/quote]

. . . and at times at a good premium. ;)

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mindbender (Jul 23, 2019 06:11PM)
Extremely excited - my book and accessories pack arrived today. Won't have time to dig in to it until this weekend, but there is one thing I know for sure...

Christmas time at the Murray household must be challenging -- this guy sure knows how to securely wrap a box!
Message: Posted by: bretti_bln (Jul 24, 2019 03:19AM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2019, celebrity wrote:
Just so that everyones aware (as I have had several messages about this), the accessory packs are only being made available to those who own the book. I did list them up a few days back but people who didnít own the book were attempting to order and since the accessory packs do not come with any written instructions this would be money wasted for them. To save customer disappointment and having to process a large volume of refunds I have taken them off the site and will be offering them to owners direct ;)

Best Wishes Michael [/quote]
Sorry, my fault. I thought it would be a good compromise to sell the accessory pack separately over 500 times.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 24, 2019 07:36AM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2019, Mr. Mindbender wrote:
Extremely excited - my book and accessories pack arrived today. Won't have time to dig in to it until this weekend, but there is one thing I know for sure...

Christmas time at the Murray household must be challenging -- this guy sure knows how to securely wrap a box! [/quote]



hi mindbender Could you review it?

thanks
Message: Posted by: Mr. Mindbender (Jul 24, 2019 12:18PM)
Sure, once I have time to read through it, absolutely!
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 24, 2019 03:27PM)
Thanks

Someone could explain me. the difference between krause method and arthur overlooked plus?
also witg arthur method is possible to guess the hand witha borrowed coin?
best.

Which is the more direct to the point? and
permits the use of a borrowed coin?
Message: Posted by: Manos Kartsakis (Jul 27, 2019 10:50AM)
Markhitton both releases you mentioned are good in my opinion. I would say that the main difference is that with Overlooked you learn a method. Once you know the method and know what you have to say then you can perform it with 100% success using any coin or any object really.
With Timon's book I would say that you learn a skill which once you understand how it works you have to develop with practice in order to be able to do it comfortably. I would say that you would probably have to start with certain coins and once you develop that skill you can use more coins or other items.
Both are good but vastly different.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 27, 2019 12:41PM)
Perfect! thanks a lot Manos for your explanation.
thanks

Perhaps from what I understand krause method is much more direct. spec hide the coin and you find. stop. no billets no other stuff.
i believe I its best option for me.
tomorrow I will receive it.
😃

I do not like which hand methods with questions or fishing or billets or true or false logical questions.
the pure effect is the better. they hide you find. if the spec suspects some. logic is involved this can ruin the effect in my own opinion.
Message: Posted by: RedDevil (Jul 28, 2019 10:28AM)
I will be honest. I bought this and I am glad that I own it. I have knowledge now that I didnít have before and it will prove very useful. I would buy it again and the price is fair.

But...I donít think the use of the phrase ď100%Ē is responsible. I debated on whether to post this because I feared people would think I am hating on it or being negative. Iím not.

Perhaps some discussion would be helpful on defining such a term. For instance, Tequila Hustler IS 100%...as long as the spectator follows instructions. Thatís because the law of logic rules it. Only a few variables. This is not IMHO. The difference is that the variables are far more. Donít want to say much more so we donít talk method. I just cannot honestly say I would believe anyone who says they have done this at least 100 times and never missed at least 8-10 times. Even if it 3-5, itís not 100%. Heck even Timon writes that he went through a phase where he missed. Why? Is the method bad? No, not at all. Because there were variables he wasnít controlling for. I will be bold enough to say that this method is nearly impossible to be 100%. Even if the performer does everything right.

Hope Iíve not offended anyone. I like this method. I like Timon. I recommend the book. Probably wonít sell mine. I just disagree with 100%. It may cause a buyer to have the wrong idea of what he is getting. Maybe itís just me.
Message: Posted by: bowers (Jul 28, 2019 10:59AM)
I like this effect but it won't be replacing Verbalist by Manos.
I sometimes like doing it where I can't even see the hands.
The method behind this is great though.And I will practice performing it.
Todd
Message: Posted by: videoman (Jul 28, 2019 01:30PM)
In my opinion this method isnít going to completely eliminate the need for logic and electronic methods to exist, but it is definitely extremely valuable knowledge to have for anyone who is a student of or a fan of Which Hand effects.

As with any sleight or skill in magic or mentalism, I doubt anyone would regret putting in the effort to become adept at this. Of course there are easier ways to do this effect so mastering this method is certainly not a necessity but on the other hand it will become a skill you can use for a lifetime.
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Jul 28, 2019 01:37PM)
Totally agree with this statement below from Mark


I do not like which hand methods with questions or fishing or billets or true or false logical questions.
the pure effect is the better. they hide you find. if the spec suspects some. logic is involved this can ruin the effect in my own opinion.


Good magic to all Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 28, 2019 02:36PM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2019, RedDevil wrote:
I will be honest. I bought this and I am glad that I own it. I have knowledge now that I didnít have before and it will prove very useful. I would buy it again and the price is fair.

But...I donít think the use of the phrase ď100%Ē is responsible. I debated on whether to post this because I feared people would think I am hating on it or being negative. Iím not.

Perhaps some discussion would be helpful on defining such a term. For instance, Tequila Hustler IS 100%...as long as the spectator follows instructions. Thatís because the law of logic rules it. Only a few variables. This is not IMHO. The difference is that the variables are far more. Donít want to say much more so we donít talk method. I just cannot honestly say I would believe anyone who says they have done this at least 100 times and never missed at least 8-10 times. Even if it 3-5, itís not 100%. Heck even Timon writes that he went through a phase where he missed. Why? Is the method bad? No, not at all. Because there were variables he wasnít controlling for. I will be bold enough to say that this method is nearly impossible to be 100%. Even if the performer does everything right.

Hope Iíve not offended anyone. I like this method. I like Timon. I recommend the book. Probably wonít sell mine. I just disagree with 100%. It may cause a buyer to have the wrong idea of what he is getting. Maybe itís just me. [/quote]

I feel that with this, itís as reliable as Tequila Hustler or any of the verbal methods. Tequila Hustler is not 100%. Why? Because getting a spectator to follow instructions is in and of itself not reliable because you simply canít control for someone not following your instructions, it may not be their fault but it happens. Just as with electronic devices which can and do fail. Following the guidance in Timonís book, you have control of all the variables. One of the first things emphasized in the book is spectator selection. If adhered to, you really canít fail with this method based on a very specific characteristic which makes it impossible to not get a read. You have control of whom you use as a spectator. If you were to do this 100 times following the spectator selection as explained in the book and get your pre-read, unless itís a lighting issue, I donít see how you would not be able to tell which hand the object is in.

The part in the book where Timon explains how he was failing when practicing for FU, there was a operator error. He explained what it was so that the reader can understand to look out for it and not to do what he did to fail. If you did what he was doing in the book that caused him to fail, you didnít do everything right. If you disregard his guidance on participant selection and knowing your lighting, you did not do everything right.

Now, if the question is that if there even being anything that can ever be 100%, then obviously no, thereís always a chance of failure since time keeps going forward and we canít predict the future, we just sometimes work the illusion of being able to.
Message: Posted by: videoman (Jul 28, 2019 03:42PM)
As far as spectator selection being a factor in increasing your odds of success, I feel it is worthwhile to mention that many of us do not perform regularly in front of large groups where we have the luxury of choosing the "best" spectator. If its one on one then you either decide if they are suitable or do something else. But I think that even as a casual hobbyist who is probably not going to have an opportunity to practice this 50+ times per week in order to hone it to perfection, it is still worthwhile to know and practice Timon's method.
Message: Posted by: Matt Pulsar (Jul 28, 2019 05:20PM)
Right, it's not 100% and it is sold out so don't bother trying to find it. Nothing to see here...move along...
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 28, 2019 06:48PM)
Mark Hitton, you mention that your copy will be landing tomorow but I can't see a record of your order for the physical book. If you have ordered a copy of the book second hand please let me know who you ordered it from so that I can supply you with the bonus files.

Naturally without ownership confirmation I can't send these to you.

Best Wishes Michael
Message: Posted by: RedDevil (Jul 28, 2019 09:25PM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:

I feel that with this, itís as reliable as Tequila Hustler or any of the verbal methods. Tequila Hustler is not 100%. Why? Because getting a spectator to follow instructions is in and of itself not reliable because you simply canít control for someone not following your instructions, it may not be their fault but it happens. Just as with electronic devices which can and do fail. Following the guidance in Timonís book, you have control of all the variables. One of the first things emphasized in the book is spectator selection. If adhered to, you really canít fail with this method based on a very specific characteristic which makes it impossible to not get a read. You have control of whom you use as a spectator. If you were to do this 100 times following the spectator selection as explained in the book and get your pre-read, unless itís a lighting issue, I donít see how you would not be able to tell which hand the object is in. [/quote]

Okay, before I add to this. I want to say, anyone who has read any of my posts in the last five years knows that I don't try to down anyone or get in quibbles. So I hope it is safe to just have a logical discussion on this without offending anyone because I think it is valuable for the future. Also, if I am wrong on something, I will own it. And again, I like this book. So here goes:

Kiss, read your statement above. It appears to do two things. One, it concedes my point. This is not 100%. You say that this book's method is at least as dependable as TH (I disagree, but let's leave that as an unproveable opinion on my part if we like). Then you say that TH is not 100%. Two, it appears to be somewhat contradictory. You say that following Timon's book to the letter, one controls all the variables (of human spectator behavior?). You then say it is "impossible" not to get a read (I read that to mean "correct read"). Both of your statements cannot be true at the same time.

Now, we may be at an impasse of opinion between two positive, intelligent colleagues because the idea that I can control all variables of the way a given spectator handles my instructions (even if perfectly executed by the performer) seems not to fit my version of reality or my past experience. As you say, not even the ele******* methods are 100%. For this method, the variables for what "can happen" are too many to control. You are left instead with generalities that work "most of the time" IMHO, not 100%.

IMHO, this is not as dependable as TH, and I don't think it mathematically can be. I also don't think any performer who does this 100 or 1000 times will claim near the correct rate as TH. This is not a bad thing, and it doesn't make it a bad method (I love it actually). I would like to think that our friend Pete Turner wouldn't claim that his individual pieces are 100% in order to market them. He probably would say he doesn't need them to be 100% to be successful because of eq******* cho******** (see BF Files, and this concept would work perfectly with Timon's method).

[quote]

The part in the book where Timon explains how he was failing when practicing for FU, there was a operator error. He explained what it was so that the reader can understand to look out for it and not to do what he did to fail. If you did what he was doing in the book that caused him to fail, you didnít do everything right. If you disregard his guidance on participant selection and knowing your lighting, you did not do everything right. [/quote]

You and I are both experienced enough to know the truth that the performer can mess things up and that practice, timing, and execution are definite variables that we must control. We have all heard people say something was crap when they really didn't put the time into mastering it. That's not what I am doing here. This is not crap at all. I can see 3-4 ways I can use this tool combined with other things I am doing. I love it. It's just not 100% (as you yourself have said above)...And my quibble is that the ad says it is. I disagree.

[quote]

Now, if the question is that if there even being anything that can ever be 100%, then obviously no, thereís always a chance of failure since time keeps going forward and we canít predict the future, we just sometimes work the illusion of being able to. [/quote]

Yes, agreed. So back back to my original idea. It is my respectful opinion that we need discussion pertaining to the use of "100%" in ads. We all know that nothing is 100%. But I don't think that is what is traditionally meant when a marketer puts this term in their marketing. They are not saying it is perfect; they are saying that all things being equal, the method is turnkey, mechanical, mathematical, or logically algorithmic. A self-working card trick is 100%, but can fail. In that context, I am okay with this paradox because I think that most people accept that a self-working card trick can theoretically fail due to all kinds of curve balls of the universe. But 98-99% of the time, you are going to find the card right where you expect it (because cards are ruled by the laws of math and physics). And there are less variables or room for error in a self-working card trick. That's why self-working usually means 100% (Though I am not implying that 100% means self-working). And we all commonly agree to that definition, I think.

I realize that this discussion could possibly go round and round, and I am not participating in it to win an argument. Honestly, I felt I had to post this today to create awareness about the 100% term in the future for those that care to at least to consider it. Further, I don't agree that even if you control all the variables mentioned in this book that you will get the same hit rate as TH. The irony is, I like this (Timon's) better than TH even with the personal feeling it is not 100%. Thanks for hearing me out.
Message: Posted by: RedDevil (Jul 28, 2019 09:49PM)
Just to drive home one more point about how not being 100% is not necessarily a bad thing (especially for me). One of my favorite star sign methods in the whole wide word is is Cierry's 10-Second Star Sign. It is one of the best methods in the world to me and has served me so well. If I did this 100 times, I think I would hit 85%. What does that mean to me? Gold! I put this book in the same category. I think it is gold, especially combined with some things I have been working on lately.

Why do we have to market something with "100%" in it at all. If the average person reads the ad copy and then asks the typical question, "Well, is it 100%???", one can always be transparent and say, "I won't say it cannot fail, especially if not executed with mastery. It's not a self-working card trick. With that said, I love the method so much that I have made a living with it."
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Jul 28, 2019 10:12PM)
Mark Hitton.

You have requested works from me in the past which I was kind enough to share with you. Shortly thereafter, they appeared on pirate sites. Last year, you purchased an effect from me and your email to me was worded in a way that immediately raised my suspicions once again. It too, showed up shortly after on these sites. So I did a little digging...

And found THIS:

http://www.dlmagicstore.com/blog/trading-place

You are caught red-handed running a pirate site. Your very name and email address is given on this page specifically asking for pirated "products" to be sent to YOU for your "store" in exchange for trade. Go ahead, run and delete it. It's too late; the page has been screen captured and I've made sure to let others know and see it in advance..

Based on Michael Murray's comments to you here, it would appear that others have begun to catch on to you too.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 12:46AM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2019, celebrity wrote:
Mark Hitton, you mention that your copy will be landing tomorow but I can't see a record of your order for the physical book. If you have ordered a copy of the book second hand please let me know who you ordered it from so that I can supply you with the bonus files.

Naturally without ownership confirmation I can't send these to you.

Best Wishes Michael [/quote]


not the book. just the special. cards I ordered for mistake. don't you remember?
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 12:52AM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote:
Mark Hitton.

You have requested works from me in the past which I was kind enough to share with you. Shortly thereafter, they appeared on pirate sites. Last year, you purchased an effect from me and your email to me was worded in a way that immediately raised my suspicions once again. It too, showed up shortly after on these sites. So I did a little digging...

And found THIS:

http://www.dlmagicstore.com/blog/trading-place

You are caught red-handed running a pirate site. Your very name and email address is given on this page specifically asking for pirated "products" to be sent to YOU for your "store" in exchange for trade. Go ahead, run and delete it. It's too late; the page has been screen captured and I've made sure to let others know and see it in advance..

Based on Michael Murray's comments to you here, it would appear that others have begun to catch on to you too. [/quote]



you are attacking me and accusing to be a runner on a pirate store when the mail. is. not my mail. but is aomeone who has copied my mail probably looking at a similar name searching onnthe magic Cafť.
before attaking people. its better to do a double check.
my mail. is markhitton@yahoo.it not the one someone copied on that site. I will. now. ask to use another account before people like yiu comes to wrong conclusiom
.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 01:04AM)
What kind of behaviour is?
your way of accusing is totaly wrong.
what. about Michael? he know I have bought just the special cards not the book.
i mean the cards I have regularly bought from him!!! you attack me because someone on a shop has used a mail similat to my mail without checking or asking me? just accusing.?i will now. ask. to this site why they COPY the username.
but I our behaviour is wrong. check. before accusing.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 01:11AM)
Markhitton@outlook.com is not my mail. is somenoe who has copied my mail. surfing probably on magic Cafť. I'm disappointed they used my name but also your behaviour
sudo is not first class. yoi put me on the cross without a minimal. check.im very upset
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 01:19AM)
I have written a mail to the shop. owner to use a totally different user. I hope they will change it before everyone think. I am the owner when in reality my mail. is totally different.
THEY COPIED MY USERNAME
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 01:23AM)
This can happen to others. someone surfs here and copy your user.
but the mail. is different. I hope the chwnge it after my mail.
what a delusiom sudo. at leat you could tell me before accusing me in this way☹️
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 01:40AM)
You are caught red-handed running a pirate site. Your very name and email address is given on this page specifically asking for pirated "products" to be sent to YOU for your "store" in exchange for trade. Go ahead, run and delete it. It's too late; the page has been screen captured and I've made sure to let others know and see it in advance..
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 01:43AM)
Why attack with a similar sentence before. checking? at least a minimal checking. Sudo? I'm not a c.....e site owner and its not my fault if someone creates a mail different from mine but using the same username.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 01:44AM)
I have immediately asked to change and hope. they will
☹️
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 01:47AM)
And then logically thinking who can be so
stupid to. use the almost same mail or user? you are not stupid Sudo. you could. think and tell me
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 01:54AM)
Special. pack received.
i give a look now
thansk Michael
😃
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 04:58AM)
I have just advised steve Brooks my username is used outside the magiccafe and I do not know who this markhitton is.
my mail is totally different.
pls sudo nihm check better
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Jul 29, 2019 05:09AM)
Mark, I don't need to check better - I already have.

Nobody just randomly drew your name from a hat to decide to run a pirate site with.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 29, 2019 05:34AM)
RedDevil,

Youíve mentioned that I was contradictory in my statements in regards to there being a possible unpredictable spectator element to Timonís method. Please review the book again, apart from them putting the coin in there pocket (which you can also nail since you would be able to distinguish a empty hand as well IF you heed his suggestion to demonstrate what you wish for the spectator to do first before you begin the routine), you actually do have full control of your spectator and they will follow properly as long as you heed his guidance on how to choose a spectator. As long as you choose the correct spectator for this, thereís really not much that they can do to mess you up with this method. This is NOT the case with TH because they can honestly mistaken your instructions. This absolutely does happen and thereís NOTHING you can do to cancel this out completely. Itís not even the spectatorís fault many a times. Thereís also the balance in your delivery of the lines to help mitigate this but keen observers may also notice that this might be a logic puzzle (happens, rarely but it happens) so that is a consideration as well (thus the balance to deliver the lines in a way where it doesnít draw unnecessary attention to needing them to follow directions to a T).

Iím also not knocking your view on Timonís book btw, just expressing a counter point where I believe that at worse TH and Timonís method are equally as reliable with the advantage of Timonís in my opinion easier for the audience to follow and with following the guidance in the book, youíre as close to 100% as realistically possible.

As an aside, Iím not advocating that Timonís method is the holy grail of anything. All this discussion of the finest of finer details imo is like super magic geek shop talk and we are probably just nerding our hard on things. Definitely appreciate your views my man!
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 05:47AM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote:
Mark, I don't need to check better - I already have.

Nobody just randomly drew your name from a hat to decide to run a pirate site with. [/quote]

another accusation! I must change my idea about you. you have a lot of difficulties in understanding.
this is the last time I repaet to you my mail is totally different I do not have a pirate site.
or are you joking?
if you are ckever enough pls stop here and think to magic
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 05:50AM)
If I follow your absurd thought line I can think the same of you dear sudo.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 05:51AM)
Actually your insistence to give me the fault for a stolen username is a bit.... suspect
Message: Posted by: Arthur T (Jul 29, 2019 06:11AM)
Sudo who routinely gives away his effects for free to members of the Cafť, genuinely provides good value and is a well respected member of the community is a little suspect. Im on to him too!
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jul 29, 2019 06:11AM)
[quote]On Jul 28, 2019, videoman wrote:

[b]Of course there are easier ways to do this effect so mastering this method is certainly not a necessity but on the other hand it will become a skill you can use for a lifetime.[/b] [/quote]

[b][i]Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.[/i][/b]

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 06:14AM)
Dear sudo I do the same search you have done and Why I find your name and pdf in some sites? its strange. but I do not accuse you to been linked with these sites
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 06:19AM)
Pls think better before having hasty conclusions
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 06:26AM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, Arthur T wrote:
Sudo who routinely gives away his effects for free to members of the Cafť, genuinely provides good value and is a well respected member of the community is a little suspect. Im on to him too! [/quote]

pls try not to be ironic when someone is accused
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 06:28AM)
I see this https://erdnasemagicstore.io/product/sudo-nimh-mental-die-mensional-official-pdf/

and I try the conclusion. that sudo. is thr owner? pls be serious and avoid nonsense
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 06:30AM)
I do not accept sudo hard attacks towards me based on a false username.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 06:38AM)
I am done. have a great day.
:stircoffee:
Message: Posted by: The Unmasked Magician (Jul 29, 2019 06:44AM)
Well, that was .... eh .... eh ..... eh .... what was that?!
Message: Posted by: Sean Mann (Jul 29, 2019 06:50AM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, markhitton wrote:
I see this https://erdnasemagicstore.io/product/sudo-nimh-mental-die-mensional-official-pdf/

and I try the conclusion. that sudo. is thr owner? pls be serious and avoid nonsense [/quote]

Whatever the case is, there's quite a big difference between the person being a victim of piracy and the pirate.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 06:53AM)
Yes try to make understand this to sudo. he has found my username faked on another site with a different mail and he states I am the owner of the shop!!!
this is absurd
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 06:56AM)
Me and sudo are victims. this sudo must understand. someone uses my altered username outside of here and this is not nice
Message: Posted by: TheGingerWizard (Jul 29, 2019 07:00AM)
Any chance of losing these links? Ridiculous.
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jul 29, 2019 07:01AM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote:

[b]Mark, I don't need to check better - I already have.

Nobody just randomly drew your name from a hat to decide to run a pirate site with.[/b] [/quote]

Accusing somebody just on the basis an eMail address, which in no way pertain to Markhitton, is not good.

From Markhitton's repeated posts, one can clearly see and understand that this has not only perturbed/disturbed Markhitton but has also badly hurt his inner feelings. Before tarnishing somebody's reputation, one should check and verify the correctness of the facts. This is nothing but utter nonsense and such nonsense must be stopped.

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 07:02AM)
Read all before writing. not just the piece you want. read from the beginning
Message: Posted by: TheGingerWizard (Jul 29, 2019 07:03AM)
Reported all posts with links.
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 07:06AM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, Ustaad wrote:
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, Sudo Nimh wrote:

[b]Mark, I don't need to check better - I already have.

Nobody just randomly drew your name from a hat to decide to run a pirate site with.[/b] [/quote]

Accusing somebody just on the basis an eMail address, which in no way pertain to Markhitton, is not good.

From Markhitton's repeated posts, one can clearly see and understand that this has not only perturbed/disturbed Markhitton but has also badly hurt his inner feelings. Before tarnishing somebody's reputation, one should check and verify the correctness of the facts. This is nothing but utter nonsense and such nonsense must be stopped.

:xmas: [/quote]


thanks Ustaad for supporting me. finally someone who. understands my situation.
thanks a lot
😃 :spoon: :spoon:
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jul 29, 2019 07:08AM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, TheGingerWizard wrote:

Reported all posts with links. [/quote]

Thank you for taking the right action.

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: Arthur T (Jul 29, 2019 07:11AM)
What would a random piracy site have to gain for using a random email address on their website, which they wouldn't have access too? That makes no sense.
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jul 29, 2019 07:18AM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, Arthur T wrote:

What would a random piracy site have to gain for using a random email address on their website, which they wouldn't have access too? That makes no sense. [/quote]

Pirate site eMail address: Markhitton@outlook.com

Markhitton's eMail address: Markhitton@yahoo.com

[b]That's the difference.[/b]

Please READ before you leap.

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: Arthur T (Jul 29, 2019 07:26AM)
I did read before I leaped. Sudo explicitly said after sharing one of effects with MarkHitton that it appeared on piracy sites. This aroused his suspicions and he found the above. Coincidence? possibly but logic would make me think otherwise. It is highly possible for one person to have mulitple email accounts.
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jul 29, 2019 07:34AM)
[b]Well said Gaz.[/b]

@ Artur:
. . . come on Arthur, I certainly didn't expect such logic and reasoning coming from you. I see that the listed sites have Payapl and with a little efforts one can easily find out who is running the site, who is getting the money and the country where the money is going.

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 29, 2019 07:47AM)
Just to point out that it's a bit silly to say people only ever have one email address...

Cmon now...
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Jul 29, 2019 09:11AM)
Am I the only one that feels like Mark Hitton is acting in bad faith. The book sold-out and he couldn't get a copy so he buys the accessory pack, that is only meant for book owners, with the hope of finding out the secret...
Message: Posted by: markhitton (Jul 29, 2019 10:15AM)
Sudo and his band in concert
stay tuned😏
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Jul 29, 2019 11:00AM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, Mac_Stone wrote:

Am I the only one that feels like Mark Hitton is acting in bad faith. The book sold-out and he couldn't get a copy so he buys the accessory pack, that is only meant for book owners, with the hope of finding out the secret... [/quote]

[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, markhitton wrote:

Special. pack received.
i give a look now
thansk Michael
😃 [/quote]

Mark has received the accessory pack. So that's not the issue at all.

I think this was a bad call started by Sudo Nimh. I have known Markhitton for many years. [b]And if you may please take my word, I can confidently say that Mark is not that kind of a guy.[/b]

[b]I FEEL[/b] that Sudo Nimh put his greviences on Mark's head without being sure of the source who must have leaked/sold his file(s) by taking into consideration that one eMail ID. We must realize and understand that we are living in a High-Tech information age. Look at the amount of bootleg materiel just those two mentioned site have on sale and we are helplessly watching and can do nothing in spite of the fact that they are taking payments through PayPal. All that one needs to do is to ask PayPal to block their transactions. Once that's done, at least for some time their thriving business will come to an halt as no sane person will purchase their material by putting their credit card at risk. If no action is taken soon, I fear we shall soon see Timon's book up there as well.

Said that, lets move on . . . and put a STOP to Markhitton issue.

I request all that we PLEASE get back on topic. Thank you.

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: Arthur T (Jul 29, 2019 12:07PM)
That seems fair enough, I donít think this is the place dispute this sort of stuff - itís no fair on Timone.

So has anyone whoís purchased this effect actually out there using it competently or are most people still in the practise phase? Would be cool to hear if people are out there gigging this already.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 29, 2019 02:51PM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, Arthur T wrote:
That seems fair enough, I donít think this is the place dispute this sort of stuff - itís no fair on Timone.

So has anyone whoís purchased this effect actually out there using it competently or are most people still in the practise phase? Would be cool to hear if people are out there gigging this already. [/quote]

I've been working with this method and have gotten to the point where I don't feel like I need my fl*x as a fall back. I have however been very careful in selecting my spectator for this though. Timon may have more experience and guts to have a wider variety of types to pick from and be confident with that, I haven't graduated to that level yet.

I think much of the work with Timon's method has more to do with the presentation rather than the actual method. The actual method itself is very reliable IMO, it's learning your choreography I think which will require the most practice (he does note this in the book thus the book is just a few pages on the actual method and then the rest of the book is really about how to choreograph it and essentially how to build a routine).
Message: Posted by: JamieD (Jul 29, 2019 03:21PM)
I too have been out working it. I work in restaurants and pubs mostly so picking the absolute ideal spectator doesn't always work. I have also had a few misses but it was my own fault pretty much and as soon as I got it wrong, I knew why. That being said, because of Timons use of Marc Oberons fantastic Way Out, if you don't hit, it is fine. When you reveal your prediction, you end up being right all along and it just looks like part of the effect. Reactions have been great and I am confident that the more I work it, the better I will get and I believe this will get to the 99% correct mark!

Jamie Daws
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 29, 2019 06:11PM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, JamieD wrote:
Reactions have been great and I am confident that the more I work it, the better I will get and I believe this will get to the 99% correct mark!

Jamie Daws [/quote]

But even that sugggests the 100% advertising was not very honest

I do think saying electronics go worng / nothing is 100% is misleading the discussion

As by those outs - someone can bring the most 'bold' routines out and say 100% .... then when it only works 1 in 52 times - just say ... 'well yeah of course nothing is 100%'

I see this as being much less reliable than electronics, but that doesn't mean it isn't a great book. It's just calling it 100% was, to me, not being truthful...

Yeah TH has a much higher hit rate... but they both have different 'pluses' and 'minues' - so it depends which method or methods are the best for you
Message: Posted by: JamieD (Jul 29, 2019 06:21PM)
I personally think that, someone like Timon who has obviously worked this a lot and had seen every eventuality does have this at 100& and I believe, if I put the time in, I too will have it at 100%. I don't understand why you wouldn't. It is purely a matter of practice.

Jamie Daws
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 30, 2019 12:38AM)
I havenít had a chance to read the book yet but Timon taught me the method a little over a year ago and since using it I have had no more misses with this than I have had with Tequila Hustler or verbalist. On the very rare occasions that I have missed with this it has been my own fault compared to when using logic puzzles where the error has been on the spectators side.

I personally prefer this to logic puzzles because it is much more in my control. On those rare occasions that I have missed it has been on the first round and I have immediately seen why I missed and have been able to hit on every other round and when I have revealed the prediction it then looked like the initial miss was intentional. The prediction part of this is 100% (more on this later).

Incidentally I have missed with flux approximately the same number of times as I have with this even though I have been using this since around last July whereas I only picked flux up at Blackpool and then lost my flux about a month or two later. I used flux to determine when my desired object was in their hand rather than which hand and because it turned itself off without me realising I missed.

I personally donít believe it is unfair to point out that nothing is 100% because with logic puzzles for example participants forget to lie. I also found the same with prevaricator although with that you are not relying on logic so you can point out they were telling the truth. The beauty of Timonís routine is that as long as you open the prediction correctly you will always identify which hand correctly for every round. The last time I missed on the first round I knew why and so was able to intentionally miss on every single round before revealing the prediction making the misses look intentional.

Now when it comes to ad copy claiming something is 100% I read that to mean that as long as you donít mess up you can always get a successful conclusion. The prediction gives you that successful conclusion where you have correctly predicted which hand the coin will be in each round with 100% accuracy. However that does not prevent the performer from having a brain fart and showing the wrong prediction.

Anyone who tells you ANY effect cannot fail has not performed it enough for real people or simply hasnít performed enough for real people. A one way force deck can fail on the wrong spectator. Virtually nothing is immune to the performer having a brain fart. We all make mistakes, which is why they put erasers on top of pencils.

For me with the prediction ending this fits into reasonable use of the phrase 100% because the prediction is part of the routine rather than an out and the brain fart clause is down to the performer not the effect.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Jul 30, 2019 04:51AM)
I think everyone takes 100% to mean that the effect will always work if performed correctly. The ultra-mental deck is a 100% effect due to the mechanics of the effect; a psychological card force can never be 100%. Of course you or the spectator can mess up in either effect, but that is not what we are talking about when we talk about effects being 100%. I think that has been pretty firmly established for decades.

This effect is not 100%(in terms of guessing which hand). But it is a beautifully written book with a great presentation and method. I'm very happy I bought it.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 30, 2019 01:08PM)
I would agree that itís not going to be 100% on every which hand guess any more than a logic puzzle is 100% despite the fact that it would be if you could guarantee the spectator wouldnít make an error. However Timonís routine ends with the prediction and that part is 100%. So the routine will have a successful conclusion 100% of the time (not counting brain farts).

The guessing which hand by skill alone is always going to come down to how honed your skills are and how well you pick your spectator. When it comes to skill based methods this will get you as close to 100% as itís possible through skill. No skill based method for anything will be 100% even Rory missed a 3 inch putt during the masters.

Mark
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 30, 2019 01:51PM)
[quote]On Jul 30, 2019, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
I would agree that itís not going to be 100% on every which hand guess any more than a logic puzzle is 100% despite the fact that it would be if you could guarantee the spectator wouldnít make an error. However Timonís routine ends with the prediction and that part is 100%. So the routine will have a successful conclusion 100% of the time (not counting brain farts).

The guessing which hand by skill alone is always going to come down to how honed your skills are and how well you pick your spectator. When it comes to skill based methods this will get you as close to 100% as itís possible through skill. No skill based method for anything will be 100% even Rory missed a 3 inch putt during the masters.

Mark [/quote]

I'd also like to add, I think someone was pointing out how having to pick the ideal spectator for Timon's method is a hindrance of sorts, this is much more so for the verbal methods for which hand. Reason being you do need to find participants that will follow your directions. So even with coming down to picking spectators, IMO it's far easier to find an adequate one for Timon's method then it would be for a verbal method. There's a lot more control over the variables with Timon's method than there are compared to the other methods apart from something like fl*x where that failing would be operator error or equipment malfunction. Timon's ending for You Have No Choice is excellent though and I loved your thinking on your feet to continue to miss so that you still have that fitting ending. Excellent thinking.
Message: Posted by: RedDevil (Jul 30, 2019 09:10PM)
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, The Duster wrote:
[quote]On Jul 29, 2019, JamieD wrote:
Reactions have been great and I am confident that the more I work it, the better I will get and I believe this will get to the 99% correct mark!

Jamie Daws [/quote]

But even that sugggests the 100% advertising was not very honest

I do think saying electronics go worng / nothing is 100% is misleading the discussion

As by those outs - someone can bring the most 'bold' routines out and say 100% .... then when it only works 1 in 52 times - just say ... 'well yeah of course nothing is 100%'

I see this as being much less reliable than electronics, but that doesn't mean it isn't a great book. It's just calling it 100% was, to me, not being truthful...

Yeah TH has a much higher hit rate... but they both have different 'pluses' and 'minues' - so it depends which method or methods are the best for you [/quote]

For the record, I am not implying that anyone was dishonest. In fact, I am quite sure that no one was being dishonest, especially considering where this came from. I just think the use of 100% is being very liberally applied in this case. I have read most of the posts in response to my original discussion, and I still don't agree in full. But I can't really get into it without discussing the method. I do, however, appreciate people taking it into consideration and the respectful dialogue, and it is my hope that this phrase will be at least scrutinized (100%) more in the future.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Jul 31, 2019 12:18AM)
The claim that this will work 100% of the time is false advertising. And there was no need for it as the book and effect is superb.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 31, 2019 02:15AM)
[quote]On Jul 30, 2019, RedDevil wrote:
my hope that this phrase will be at least scrutinized (100%) more in the future. [/quote]

Do you mean before a publisher uses it?

As if you mean afterwards - than it's too late

If this was a poor book - everyone would be complaining about the use of 100%.

The only reason ppl are defending it, by saying things like - 'it's not 100% for me, but I am sure it is for the author' [hmm] - is because the quality of the work is so high.

Also this is all an old argument - and from the past [and in this thread] I always think to myself that the ones defending the use of the term [usually it's just the publisher, and friends] - I always think they have lost the argument when they start to say, 'well no effect is 100%'

A 'self-working' or an electronic device that may fail because you don't follow the instructions correctly 1 in 150 times... is very different from a method that you are told pre-purchase is 100% - that will fail a lot more often than that, even if you follow the instrcutions correctly.

There is no way this should have ever been advertised as 100%

What is 100% though, is that I really like the book though
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 31, 2019 03:02AM)
I personally donít believe the term 100% should be used advertising any magic product. However I do think we need to be able to distinguish between a solid mechanical method, a skill based method and the you may just hit on this if the stars are correctly aligned and your luck is in type of releases.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Jul 31, 2019 04:59AM)
"100% success rate" is just a short-hand for "a mechanical method that will work unless someone buggers up". It is a very useful shorthand which shouldn't be misused. As it has been here.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Jul 31, 2019 09:03AM)
[quote]On Jul 31, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
"100% success rate" is just a short-hand for "a mechanical method that will work unless someone buggers up". It is a very useful shorthand which shouldn't be misused. As it has been here. [/quote]

The method here is in essence mechanical and due to the nature of it, if you adhere to the guidance of the book especially on participant selection, if you don't hit it's most likely operator error. I understand a lot of the heavy hitters in this industry and community had been tipped Timon's method ages ago personally by Timon but from what I'm reading on the posts in this thread by the people already in the know on the method, they may not have read the book yet. There's essentially a key point Timon makes and suggests in the book in order to take any guess work, etc. out of this method (it has to do with you demonstrating what it is to be going on as well as taking note of something that on face value seems not as important as taking note of the more obvious thing to take note of).

When you're working this method, you start to understand the importance of these little touches which really makes this more or less as foolproof as any of the other methods available like fl*x. Owners of the book, please don't discount the small nuances and tips Timon gives in regards to the method part of this.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jul 31, 2019 10:10AM)
Over 23,000+ views!
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Jul 31, 2019 12:38PM)
F this effect...F this book...there is ONE section in this book that is WAY more valuable than the simple effect that is presented. This is a positive review.

Nathan
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 31, 2019 02:51PM)
For clarity, this is the Ďfull contextual quoteí direct from the ad copy and I will say that if Timon had any doubts whatsoever over the reliability of this I donít think that he would have risked performing it on live TV or indeed as part of the Pen and Teller Act.

ďWhich Hand will work 100% of the time, provided you follow the exact process laid out here and fulfil the necessary conditions to ensure the method will do its work.Ē

Best Wishes to All!

Michael
Message: Posted by: celebrity (Jul 31, 2019 02:53PM)
And Nathan, I agree completely ;)
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 31, 2019 04:08PM)
[quote]On Jul 31, 2019, celebrity wrote:

if Timon had any doubts whatsoever over the reliability of this I donít think that he would have risked performing it on live TV [/quote]

Is there another TV performance of this [?]

I thought it was only on Fool Us

If there is, if anyone could drop a link that would be very interesting to watch...

Thanks
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Aug 1, 2019 12:30PM)
[quote]On Jul 31, 2019, The Duster wrote:
[quote]On Jul 31, 2019, celebrity wrote:

if Timon had any doubts whatsoever over the reliability of this I donít think that he would have risked performing it on live TV [/quote]

Is there another TV performance of this [?]

I thought it was only on Fool Us

If there is, if anyone could drop a link that would be very interesting to watch...

Thanks [/quote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCAeqEeqt40

He ends it with a drawing reveal which is I believe separate from the which hand. Much of the patter even though it's in German, is the same as he used on FU. The way I deduced that is because he choreographs his actions with his script and you can tell that it's much the same as what was shown on FU.

It's very very very unfortunate for those that were not able to get the book because the method really does take a backseat to what he teaches in regards to routining. The method itself is super solid but what makes it amazing really is his routining.
Message: Posted by: magicmind (Aug 1, 2019 12:36PM)
[quote]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCAeqEeqt40

He ends it with a drawing reveal which is I believe separate from the which hand. Much of the patter even though it's in German, is the same as he used on FU. The way I deduced that is because he choreographs his actions with his script and you can tell that it's much the same as what was shown on FU.

It's very very very unfortunate for those that were not able to get the book because the method really does take a backseat to what he teaches in regards to routining. The method itself is super solid but what makes it amazing really is his routining. [/quote]

Great to see another live performance, thank you. Agreed, the book is excellent and the kit will make this a much easier learning curve. Routining is pure gold.
Message: Posted by: amirb401 (Aug 1, 2019 01:09PM)
I must say, even though I have and know few methods for the which hand, this is by far the most "mentalist" version iv'e encountered.
REAL "mind reading" and not just a simple logic patter to follow or use of electronics or gimmicks.
I have bought his bought when he came to lecture at my "circle". its just plain brilliant.

It does take some practice but with enough you will be doing it with 100% success all the time.
People complained that it might not be really 100%.. something is 100% if you do it correctly, something that can/will always work even with bad spectator/showmanship isn't "100%" but more of a "dumb-proof" and probably heavily gimmicked.
This IS 100% if you understood the method and had enough practice on real audience/friends. I have tried it several times already and this kills.
I have a lot more to practice but this surely is one of the best out there.
Message: Posted by: RedDevil (Aug 2, 2019 06:44PM)
Am I mistaken that he misses on the second round in this vid? If so, he recovers well.

[quote]On Aug 1, 2019, magicmind wrote:
[quote]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCAeqEeqt40

He ends it with a drawing reveal which is I believe separate from the which hand. Much of the patter even though it's in German, is the same as he used on FU. The way I deduced that is because he choreographs his actions with his script and you can tell that it's much the same as what was shown on FU.

It's very very very unfortunate for those that were not able to get the book because the method really does take a backseat to what he teaches in regards to routining. The method itself is super solid but what makes it amazing really is his routining. [/quote]

Great to see another live performance, thank you. Agreed, the book is excellent and the kit will make this a much easier learning curve. Routining is pure gold. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Aug 2, 2019 08:30PM)
[quote]On Aug 2, 2019, RedDevil wrote:
Am I mistaken that he misses on the second round in this vid? If so, he recovers well.

[quote]On Aug 1, 2019, magicmind wrote:
[quote]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCAeqEeqt40

He ends it with a drawing reveal which is I believe separate from the which hand. Much of the patter even though it's in German, is the same as he used on FU. The way I deduced that is because he choreographs his actions with his script and you can tell that it's much the same as what was shown on FU.

It's very very very unfortunate for those that were not able to get the book because the method really does take a backseat to what he teaches in regards to routining. The method itself is super solid but what makes it amazing really is his routining. [/quote]

Great to see another live performance, thank you. Agreed, the book is excellent and the kit will make this a much easier learning curve. Routining is pure gold. [/quote] [/quote]

He definitely missed on the second round, I donít think it was really a recovery though, he just keeps going. I think that was prior to him forming the routine he does now with the prediction but you can see many of the elements with the choreography and script (in German though of course) here. He obviously kept much of that choreography and script in tact for the P&T appearance.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Aug 3, 2019 03:29AM)
Timon clearly misses during the footage above- which hopefully puts to bed the silly argument about this method being 100%. It isn't and really should not have been advertised as such.

The biggest drawback in this method for me are the constraints placed on the routine to get the success rate as high as possible. The ideal scenario involves ideal lighting, size of participant, gender of participant and choice of object. Some may also think not being able to "borrow" a coin is another potential drawback. I doubt very much that this will replace the electronic route for the majority of professional performers. But as others have said, the book is really about far more than the method. It is a brilliant study in building a Mentalism routine -and often very funny. And, as Mark Chandaue points out, the final revelation normally allows you to cover any misses you make along the way.

So, not a 100% foolproof which-hand method, but definitely a solid 80% for the contents of the book.
Message: Posted by: otreboR (Aug 3, 2019 03:49AM)
Just a small clear up for the language in the 2014 video.
He is speaking Dutch with a German accent.
That's all. Continue the discussion. :-)

Greetings from the Netherlands
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Aug 3, 2019 08:36AM)
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Timon clearly misses during the footage above- which hopefully puts to bed the silly argument about this method being 100%. It isn't and really should not have been advertised as such.

The biggest drawback in this method for me are the constraints placed on the routine to get the success rate as high as possible. The ideal scenario involves ideal lighting, size of participant, gender of participant and choice of object. Some may also think not being able to "borrow" a coin is another potential drawback. I doubt very much that this will replace the electronic route for the majority of professional performers. But as others have said, the book is really about far more than the method. It is a brilliant study in building a Mentalism routine -and often very funny. And, as Mark Chandaue points out, the final revelation normally allows you to cover any misses you make along the way.

So, not a 100% foolproof which-hand method, but definitely a solid 80% for the contents of the book. [/quote]

This was a couple of years into him using this method. Heís been working it for a total of 9 years or so now. The P&T appearance was two year post the performance in that video. He clearly had not formulated the full routine he uses on P&T. He also explains in the book that he has missed frequently before and he gives explanation of why in the book so that students will not repeat the same mistakes and thus have misses when they could have avoided it.

Itís unfortunate that only people that know the method would understand this, but if you do an example phase first properly (in the video he rushed through it, you can tell if you understand the method) and actually did the opposite of what he instructs in the book, if you do the example phase AND pick your participant wisely, thereís a specific characteristic at play for it to be physically/mechanically impossible to not be able to get the read. Again, itís unfortunate that people that have not learned this would not understand what I am explaining here but then again, perhaps itís for the better as this does keep the secret more of a secret.

[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, otreboR wrote:
Just a small clear up for the language in the 2014 video.
He is speaking Dutch with a German accent.
That's all. Continue the discussion. :-)

Greetings from the Netherlands [/quote]

AH! Thank you!
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Aug 3, 2019 09:38AM)
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Timon clearly misses during the footage above- which hopefully puts to bed the silly argument about this method being 100%. It isn't and really should not have been advertised as such.

The biggest drawback in this method for me are the constraints placed on the routine to get the success rate as high as possible. The ideal scenario involves ideal lighting, size of participant, gender of participant and choice of object. Some may also think not being able to "borrow" a coin is another potential drawback. I doubt very much that this will replace the electronic route for the majority of professional performers. But as others have said, the book is really about far more than the method. It is a brilliant study in building a Mentalism routine -and often very funny. And, as Mark Chandaue points out, the final revelation normally allows you to cover any misses you make along the way.

So, not a 100% foolproof which-hand method, but definitely a solid 80% for the contents of the book. [/quote]

This was a couple of years into him using this method. Heís been working it for a total of 9 years or so now. The P&T appearance was two year post the performance in that video. He clearly had not formulated the full routine he uses on P&T. He also explains in the book that he has missed frequently before and he gives explanation of why in the book so that students will not repeat the same mistakes and thus have misses when they could have avoided it.
[[/quote]

I'm happy to admit that if we use your criteria -in which no miss EVER counts as a miss, even when the creator misses- then this method works 100% of the time.
Message: Posted by: Waters. (Aug 3, 2019 12:29PM)
I like collecting these types of methods and found Timonís method both effective and insightful. In the US, since quarters are such a wide variety it is a complication to borrow one (if you are using a special something). Devices are a great resource. If you like having a genuine skill, then that is another thing. The truth is it is VERY helpful to have a variety of tools at your disposal. No method is 100%, but I like having routines like this and TH available to not have to worry about an EMP reducing me to a chump. The nice thing about this craft it that you can choose your own adventure.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Aug 5, 2019 09:53AM)
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Timon clearly misses during the footage above- which hopefully puts to bed the silly argument about this method being 100%. It isn't and really should not have been advertised as such.

The biggest drawback in this method for me are the constraints placed on the routine to get the success rate as high as possible. The ideal scenario involves ideal lighting, size of participant, gender of participant and choice of object. Some may also think not being able to "borrow" a coin is another potential drawback. I doubt very much that this will replace the electronic route for the majority of professional performers. But as others have said, the book is really about far more than the method. It is a brilliant study in building a Mentalism routine -and often very funny. And, as Mark Chandaue points out, the final revelation normally allows you to cover any misses you make along the way.

So, not a 100% foolproof which-hand method, but definitely a solid 80% for the contents of the book. [/quote]

This was a couple of years into him using this method. Heís been working it for a total of 9 years or so now. The P&T appearance was two year post the performance in that video. He clearly had not formulated the full routine he uses on P&T. He also explains in the book that he has missed frequently before and he gives explanation of why in the book so that students will not repeat the same mistakes and thus have misses when they could have avoided it.
[[/quote]

I'm happy to admit that if we use your criteria -in which no miss EVER counts as a miss, even when the creator misses- then this method works 100% of the time. [/quote]

Go back and think about that one characteristic in the book he mentions and how to choose the spectator and the note about doing the demo phase first. Think about if he adhered to his own guidelines there in that video... you can PM me and I can explain why his method would be physically impossible to not get right unless it was operator error. I'll also point out something else I can't mention on here but perhaps would be insightful to you once I mention it to you (because you have read the book). I understand the reasoning why people feel that this can't be close to 100% and I think that has much more to do with them going into this expecting to have a wider pick of spectators and this idea of going in cold to do this. Just PM if you wish to discuss some of these points.

[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, Waters. wrote:
I like collecting these types of methods and found Timonís method both effective and insightful. In the US, since quarters are such a wide variety it is a complication to borrow one (if you are using a special something). Devices are a great resource. If you like having a genuine skill, then that is another thing. The truth is it is VERY helpful to have a variety of tools at your disposal. No method is 100%, but I like having routines like this and TH available to not have to worry about an EMP reducing me to a chump. The nice thing about this craft it that you can choose your own adventure. [/quote]


Fl*x does make that complication of borrowing a quarter a non-issue though ;)
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Aug 5, 2019 10:30AM)
On the "Which Hand? Overlooked By Arthur" thread, there is a good and very wise suggestion.
And may I please quote:-

[quote]On Aug 4, 2019, imacmagic wrote:

Also, for anyone wondering if it works with the Which Hand Method & Philosophy, I would tell them that you wouldnít want to use them together at the same time, [b]but that you could use this first and it could teach you what you need to know to follow up with Which Hand.[/b] [/quote]

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Aug 5, 2019 10:48AM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, Martin Pulman [quote]00%.


I'm happy to admit that if we use your criteria -in which no miss EVER counts as a miss, even when the creator misses- then this method works 100% of the time. [/quote]

I understand the reasoning why people feel that this can't be close to 100% [/quote]

And in one sneaky move we've gone from "works 100% of the time" to "works close to 100% of the time".

Nice try.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Aug 5, 2019 10:58AM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, Martin Pulman [quote]00%.


I'm happy to admit that if we use your criteria -in which no miss EVER counts as a miss, even when the creator misses- then this method works 100% of the time. [/quote]

I understand the reasoning why people feel that this can't be close to 100% [/quote]

And in one sneaky move we've gone from "works 100% of the time" to "works close to 100% of the time".

Nice try. [/quote]

Just from my posts in this thread from last week, my stance on this has never changed so where is this "sneaky move?" It seems that you're on here to stir the pot for no other reason than to stir the pot. It's a bit sad that you do this even though I clearly was offering to discuss the topic with you in private since it would include discussing methodology in the book (which I'm actually unsure if you have or had read, so was going to have you essentially provide evidence that you do own or have read the book).
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Aug 5, 2019 11:54AM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, Martin Pulman [quote]00%.


I'm happy to admit that if we use your criteria -in which no miss EVER counts as a miss, even when the creator misses- then this method works 100% of the time. [/quote]

I understand the reasoning why people feel that this can't be close to 100% [/quote]

And in one sneaky move we've gone from "works 100% of the time" to "works close to 100% of the time".

Nice try. [/quote]

Just from my posts in this thread from last week, my stance on this has never changed so where is this "sneaky move?" It seems that you're on here to stir the pot for no other reason than to stir the pot. It's a bit sad that you do this even though I clearly was offering to discuss the topic with you in private since it would include discussing methodology in the book (which I'm actually unsure if you have or had read, so was going to have you essentially provide evidence that you do own or have read the book). [/quote]

Your claim has changed from one post to the next. First it worked 100% of the time; then it became "close to 100% of the time". Sneaky. You would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids!

The Debate is about truthfulness in advertising. It has long been established what "works 100% of the time" means. It is important that blatantly false claims aren't allowed to start creeping into magic adverts. The lies by omission are bad enough.

As for owning the book: footnote number 6 on page 11 explains why this cannot, and never will be a 100% effect, regardless of all the criteria being met. It is an occurrence that is completely out of control of the performer.

"Provided the object is **** in a ****** ***. A ****** **** ******** might potentially jeopardize the reliability of the method."

The lesson: always read the footnotes.

But again, a really good book. Overpriced -but what isn't these days. (Apart from Iain's Freud book test).
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Aug 5, 2019 12:09PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2019, Martin Pulman [quote]00%.


I'm happy to admit that if we use your criteria -in which no miss EVER counts as a miss, even when the creator misses- then this method works 100% of the time. [/quote]

I understand the reasoning why people feel that this can't be close to 100% [/quote]

And in one sneaky move we've gone from "works 100% of the time" to "works close to 100% of the time".

Nice try. [/quote]

Just from my posts in this thread from last week, my stance on this has never changed so where is this "sneaky move?" It seems that you're on here to stir the pot for no other reason than to stir the pot. It's a bit sad that you do this even though I clearly was offering to discuss the topic with you in private since it would include discussing methodology in the book (which I'm actually unsure if you have or had read, so was going to have you essentially provide evidence that you do own or have read the book). [/quote]

Your claim has changed from one post to the next. First it worked 100% of the time; then it became "close to 100% of the time". Sneaky. You would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids!

The Debate is about truthfulness in advertising. It has long been established what "works 100% of the time" means. It is important that blatantly false claims aren't allowed to start creeping into magic adverts. The lies by omission are bad enough.

As for owning the book: footnote number 6 on page 11 explains why this cannot, and never will be a 100% effect, regardless of all the criteria being met. It is an occurrence that is completely out of control of the performer.

"Provided the object is **** in a ****** ***. A ****** **** ******** might potentially jeopardize the reliability of the method."

The lesson: always read the footnotes.

But again, a really good book. Overpriced -but what isn't these days. (Apart from Iain's Freud book test). [/quote]

Wow, it hasn't but you're just doubling down on literally lying about what I have said and haven't said. Footnote number 6, is that about being seated? I don't have the book on hand because if that's what you are talking about, he explains how to get around this in a obvious way. Or is that the part about performing it on magicians which also has the same drawback as doing it to someone seated, which again, it is explained as to why this would jeapardize the method and he provides the solution to circumvent this. If you ignored his guidance here then you are NOT meeting all the criteria which demonstrates that you've just contradicted yourself because you are claiming that no matter if all the criteria is met or not that this is still a problem (he points out this potential problem and explains what that problem is and how to get around it, which is a CRITERIA by definition, if you choose to ignore this and do whatever it is you feel like doing and your trip up due to this, that's on you, the operator, not adhering to the guidance provided in the book).

It seems that you have selective reading so you've basically made up your own interpretations of what is being explained in the book? Even though clearly the book instructed you to not do what you are doing you still took it as go do that because that is something you can't prevent so yolo. I have read the footnotes. I've really enjoyed the footnotes. I've stated this pages back. I've stated how this is as close to 100% as possible about 3 or so pages back. I have not flip flopped on my statements, you lying about what I have and haven't said makes your posts questionable. Especially considering that my comments on the reliability of this was clearly stated 3 or so pages back when I was responding to RedDevil.
Message: Posted by: bretti_bln (Aug 5, 2019 01:02PM)
The discussion becomes a bit absurd. With which hit rate can you tell the chick whether itís male or female? Chinese reach 100% but not you. LetĎs talk about the method :-))
To advertise the book with 100% covers simple the method. I currently have 100% although I do not master all subtleties perfectly. And I'm sure I'll miss it sometime - then I was not perfect, so what?
Message: Posted by: The Unmasked Magician (Aug 5, 2019 01:43PM)
This discussion isnít about you. That WOULD be absurd.
Message: Posted by: bretti_bln (Aug 5, 2019 03:04PM)
Never mind, the method is so close to 100% that you can advertise it as 100%. Thatís just my opinion as a lawyer.
Message: Posted by: The Unmasked Magician (Aug 5, 2019 03:23PM)
We are having a discussion about morals, mr Lawyer. Not jurisdiction. Somehow in two posts you manage to come across as a bit egocentric and not interested in morals. So I guess... you really are a lawyer. :lol:
Message: Posted by: bretti_bln (Aug 5, 2019 03:45PM)
And youĎ re a mentalist! Have a look at the recipient horizon of advertising. I cannot see any problems with it:

ĄWhich Hand will work 100% of the time, provided you follow the exact process laid out here and fulfil the necessary conditions to ensure the method will do its work. Do that, and soon you will feel as confident with this as with any other method you may have used before, with the added benefit of complete liberation, both in terms of not needing any special aid and in terms of creating your own presentations around this devastatingly clean method.ď
https://www.mindfx.co.uk/collections/physical-books/products/which-hand-method-philosophy-bt-timon-krause
Message: Posted by: The Unmasked Magician (Aug 5, 2019 03:47PM)
Have you read any of Martinís posts?
Message: Posted by: bretti_bln (Aug 5, 2019 04:00PM)
This one?

[quote]On Jul 31, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
The claim that this will work 100% of the time is false advertising. And there was no need for it as the book and effect is superb. [/quote]

Alright I missed the discussion about moral as you pointed out. Maybe the term false advertising was the problem from my point of view.
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Aug 5, 2019 05:12PM)
Lawyers every single day defend the indefensible knowing that they are as guilty as sin and bang to rights with DNA etc etc .
So being a Lawyer holds absolutely no water with me whatsoever .
I am not defending any posts on here or promoting them but being a Lawyer gives you if anything less credibility imho Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Aug 5, 2019 05:38PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, Gaz Lawrence wrote:
Lawyers every single day defend the indefensible knowing that they are as guilty as sin and bang to rights with DNA etc etc .
So being a Lawyer holds absolutely no water with me whatsoever .
I am not defending any posts on here or promoting them but being a Lawyer gives you if anything less credibility imho Gaz 🙂 [/quote]

Really depends on the lawyer. For example: lawyers working for Legal Aid or Innocence Project. Youíre calling them scum too?
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Aug 5, 2019 06:13PM)
I am not calling anybody anything , I am just saying being a Lawyer doesnít give anyone any superiority over anyone else .
The fact that they know their client is guilty yet still defend them as innocent gives me the complete opposite opinion of the poster not the one he assumes everyone holds .
He is using his occupation as a bias lever thinking he must be right as he is a Lawyer and that is the point I am calling him up on , because that alone means absolute nothing imho Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Aug 5, 2019 06:43PM)
Wow! How quickly this thread has gone off track. Will somebody try and bring it track?

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Aug 5, 2019 06:48PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, Ustaad wrote:
Wow! How quickly this thread has gone off track. Will somebody try and bring it track?

[/quote]

I would try and bring it 100% back on track... but then the conversation about whether I really brought it "100%" back on track, or not - would be a derail in itself
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Aug 5, 2019 06:50PM)
Hmm - OK - Forget it! :bg:

OKay guys, continue and bash-on regardless . . . :) ;)

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Aug 6, 2019 01:07AM)
It was the new user who took it off track by trying to be patronising . Back on topic now please Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: bretti_bln (Aug 6, 2019 03:06AM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2019, Gaz Lawrence wrote:
It was the new user who took it off track by trying to be patronising . Back on topic now please Gaz 🙂 [/quote]
This is not true, as anyone can understand by reading the thread.
Anyway this was discussed until the end - some posts before.
Message: Posted by: JamieD (Aug 6, 2019 04:07AM)
So I'm a good few weeks into using this now and my hit rate is now at 100%. For the past 2 weeks I haven't had a miss. I do admit, studying the extra pack of pieces really does help. The things I found difficult in the practice pack hugely helped in the real world. I carry three cards on me. One says "The first round will be different". Another says, "The second round will be different". The third says, "The third round will be different". I figure, this ambiguous wording covers a ton of outcomes should I miss. If I miss on the first round but not the others, I bring out the first little prediction. This is the same for the second and third. If I was to get two of them wrong, lets say the first and the third, I can bring out prediction number two "The second round will be different" and I have a hit. This is like the 'which hand off by one' in my mid but covered a lot for very little should I need it. Either way, I'm currently at 100% and don't see it changing just yet!

Jamie Daws
Message: Posted by: The Unmasked Magician (Aug 6, 2019 06:19AM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2019, bretti_bln wrote:

Alright I missed the discussion about moral as you pointed out. Maybe the term false advertising was the problem from my point of view. [/quote]

No prob! Good to have that cleared up ;)
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Aug 6, 2019 07:01AM)
Itís all good and great to see Jamie putting it through its paces in the trenches with success Gaz 🙂
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Aug 6, 2019 09:58AM)
Has Michael sent out the email regarding the accessory pack? Waiting to pick up one of those.
Message: Posted by: Mr Matthews (Aug 6, 2019 02:54PM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2019, Mac_Stone wrote:
Has Michael sent out the email regarding the accessory pack? Waiting to pick up one of those. [/quote]

I've not had the email yet but I emailed him a few days ago and he told me that it's
coming really soon.
Message: Posted by: streifi (Aug 7, 2019 02:06AM)
Anyone willing to sell me the book? Iam still searching to buy one.
Message: Posted by: JamieD (Aug 7, 2019 03:29AM)
I cannot recommend the accessory pack strongly enough. I think it is a vital part of the training process and a very clever idea. Also, the coins provided is perfect for the routine.

Jamie Daws
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Aug 7, 2019 03:56AM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2019, JamieD wrote:
I cannot recommend the accessory pack strongly enough. I think it is a vital part of the training process and a very clever idea. Also, the coins provided is perfect for the routine.

Jamie Daws [/quote]

If it is a vital part of the training process it should really have been included with every purchase of the book.
Message: Posted by: bretti_bln (Aug 7, 2019 04:27AM)
Indeed, in the book you have only a few pictures and the cards from the accessory pack show 54 more pictures to train (one can buy the prediction papers and for sure any Morgan Dollar separately).
Message: Posted by: JamieD (Aug 7, 2019 05:18AM)
Martin, I think its much nicer to have had the option! You know what magicians are like! If it was included, some would say, "I don't really want the accessory pack. I can do it without it. I wish they released the book at a lower price but without the accessory pack" and then the others, "I think it should have been included no matter what!". I think it was really nice to be given that option actually. The it keeps everyone happy... sort of ;)

Jamie Daws
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Aug 7, 2019 08:15AM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2019, JamieD wrote:
Martin, I think its much nicer to have had the option! You know what magicians are like! If it was included, some would say, "I don't really want the accessory pack. I can do it without it. I wish they released the book at a lower price but without the accessory pack" and then the others, "I think it should have been included no matter what!". I think it was really nice to be given that option actually. The it keeps everyone happy... sort of ;)

Jamie Daws [/quote]

I agree with you. For me the pack didnít seem like it was worth it as I wasnít going to use the outs paper or the replica Morgan since I have a few junky real Morganís and halves. The deck seemed like it would expedite learning and practice but I was willing to forego it and settle for roughing it out for a bit longer than with the cards.
Message: Posted by: Nathan Pain (Aug 7, 2019 03:38PM)
Look if you didn't buy the deck but you have the book you can make your own deck.

Nathan
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Aug 8, 2019 04:37PM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2019, JamieD wrote:
I cannot recommend the accessory pack strongly enough. I think it is a vital part of the training process and a very clever idea. Also, the coins provided is perfect for the routine.

Jamie Daws [/quote]

I'm really looking forward to the accessory packs.
Message: Posted by: amirb401 (Aug 9, 2019 06:27AM)
Is there any shop out there that sells the accessory pack without the book ? since I got the book when he lectured in my country and didn't had the pack, I hope I could get it somehow..
Message: Posted by: scott0819 (Aug 9, 2019 07:11AM)
[quote]On Aug 9, 2019, amirb401 wrote:
Is there any shop out there that sells the accessory pack without the book ? since I got the book when he lectured in my country and didn't had the pack, I hope I could get it somehow.. [/quote]

Speak to Michael at MindFX. I bet if you can provide proof that you own the book, he may be able sell you the accessory pack.
Message: Posted by: amirb401 (Aug 9, 2019 07:39AM)
[quote]On Aug 9, 2019, scott0819 wrote:
[quote]On Aug 9, 2019, amirb401 wrote:
Is there any shop out there that sells the accessory pack without the book ? since I got the book when he lectured in my country and didn't had the pack, I hope I could get it somehow.. [/quote]

Speak to Michael at MindFX. I bet if you can provide proof that you own the book, he may be able sell you the accessory pack. [/quote]
Thanks!
I sent him an email, hopefully he will have a few on the side. if not I'm still looking guys ;)
Message: Posted by: Mad_Lewis (Aug 18, 2019 04:04PM)
Is it a different technique than "the secret" from mindbox (http://www.mindbox.fr/mindbox/thesecret.html)? Can any one tell if those are close ?
Message: Posted by: Dreda (Aug 19, 2019 05:17AM)
The secret is not as good if you compare it to Timon's book which offers much more, especially in terms of the principle (which is the same but in "the secret" you will not have all the subtleties of the original creator that will ensure that you will not miss the effect even if the coin is in the pocket of your spectator).
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Aug 20, 2019 11:00AM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, Dreda wrote:
The secret is not as good if you compare it to Timon's book which offers much more, especially in terms of the principle (which is the same but in "the secret" you will not have all the subtleties of the original creator that will ensure that you will not miss the effect even if the coin is in the pocket of your spectator). [/quote]

I agree. I think there's likely a good number of owners of this book that kind of just lost interest after reading the method and thus skimmed over the majority of the book (since many of the concerns those users raised in this thread were directly addressed in the book, in detail).
Message: Posted by: goldeneye007 (Aug 22, 2019 10:00AM)
Any idea whether more copies will be released? :)
Message: Posted by: The Unmasked Magician (Aug 22, 2019 11:53AM)
Yep. Never. :)
Message: Posted by: omagico (Aug 22, 2019 02:47PM)
Sad I missed this one. I need to check the Cafť more often
Message: Posted by: magic11ryan (Aug 22, 2019 09:57PM)
Looking to get a copy on this - any chance for the re-release?
Message: Posted by: magicmind (Aug 22, 2019 10:05PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, magic11ryan wrote:
Looking to get a copy on this - any chance for the re-release? [/quote]
Just a few posts up is your answer